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                               T H E   C A B I N E T 
                          S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                              DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                              BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
                           INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
                        The above agencies came to be heard before 
               THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush 
               presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, 
               The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Thursday, 
               November 16, 2000, commencing at approximately 
               9:10 a.m. 
                                    Reported by:
                                 LAURIE L. GILBERT
                          Registered Professional Reporter
                              Certified Court Reporter
                            Certified Realtime Reporter
                             Registered Merit Reporter
                              Notary Public in and for
                           the State of Florida at Large
                         ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  100 SALEM COURT
                             TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301



                        Representing the Florida Cabinet: 
                        JEB BUSH
                        BOB CRAWFORD
                        Commissioner of Agriculture
                        BOB MILLIGAN
                        KATHERINE HARRIS
                        Secretary of State
                        BOB BUTTERWORTH
                        Attorney General
                        BILL NELSON
                        TOM GALLAGHER
                        Commissioner of Education
                                      *   *   *












                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
                                    I N D E X
               ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
               (Presented by Tom Herndon,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                       5
                2             Approved                       5
                3             For Information Only           5
                4             Status Report                  8
               (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
                1             Approved                      18
                2             Approved                      18
                3             Deferred                      19
               (Presented by James T. Moore,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                      20
                2             Approved                      21
                3             Approved                      34
               (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                      37
                2             Approved                      37
                3             Approved                      47
               (Presented by James A. Zingale, Ph.D.,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                      52
                2             Status Report                 52



                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
                                     I N D E X
               ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
               (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
                   Deputy Commissioner)
                1             Approved                      62
                2             Approved                      62
               TRUST FUND:
               (Presented by David B. Struhs,
                1             Approved                      65
                 Substitute 2 Approved                      67
                3             Approved                      68
                 Substitute 4 Approved                     101
                 Additional 5 Approved                     106
                        CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            108 
                                      *   *   *










                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           5
                                 November 16, 2000
         1                    P R O C E E D I N G S

         2              (The agenda items commenced at 9:20 a.m.)

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom Herndon, State Board of 

         4          Administration.

         5              MR. HERNDON:  Good morning, Governor, 

         6          members.

         7              Item Number 1 on the agenda is approval of 

         8          the minutes of the meeting held October 24th, 

         9          2000.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  I move the minutes.

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        13              Without objection, it's approved.

        14              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 2 is approval of 

        15          a fiscal sufficiency not exceeding thirty-two 

        16          million two hundred thousand dollar State of 

        17          Florida, Board of Regents, University of 

        18          Central Florida Housing Revenue Bond, series to 

        19          be determined.

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Move Item 2.

        21              TREASURER NELSON:  I second it.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        23              Without objection, it's approved.

        24              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 3 is provided for 

        25          your information, Governor, and members of 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           6
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          the -- of the Board. 

         2              It is what we're characterizing as the 

         3          product design, if you will, for the actively 

         4          managed funds that were identified earlier in 

         5          the Investment Policy Statement.  We provided 

         6          you with a lot of detail from our consulting 

         7          firm, Callan and Associates. 

         8              But basically what we wanted to just simply 

         9          describe was the thought process behind how we 

        10          might select investment providers for some of 

        11          these institutional products, what the 

        12          line-up -- physical line-up might look like. 

        13              In this respect, it's very analogous to the 

        14          kind of selection line-up that we go through on 

        15          the DB side of things.  When we have a large 

        16          cap growth manager, for example, that provides 

        17          services to the pension fund, we might have two 

        18          or three, depending on the capacity 

        19          requirements, depending on liquidity 

        20          requirements, depending on manager risk, style 

        21          risk, and so on, and so forth.

        22              Now, we have taken this information from 

        23          Callan, scrubbed it down ourselves, run it 

        24          through our internal working committees that 

        25          are made up of representatives from your 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           7
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          offices, and from the County associations, 

         2          School Board Association, and so forth. 

         3              And we will also be sharing this 

         4          information in a formal setting with the 

         5          Investment Advisory Council, and the PEORP 

         6          Advisory Council on the 29th of this month when 

         7          they meet for a joint meeting. 

         8              Thus far, there's certainly been no 

         9          disagreement with this line-up.  But I wanted 

        10          you to have an opportunity to see it formally, 

        11          and also to make it clear that this is a work 

        12          in progress. 

        13              We may find when we get to the point of 

        14          actually getting enrollment reality in front of 

        15          us, that we don't need some of the managers 

        16          that we propose to hire for some of the 

        17          investment products. 

        18              It's at this point largely speculative, 

        19          based on the forecasts of how much money will 

        20          be spun off for some of these products. 

        21              And as you know, all that we have to rely 

        22          on are various actuarial estimates at this 

        23          point.  So we've indicated in the line-up that 

        24          we have that while we might identify, 

        25          for example, two small cap growth managers, we 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           8
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          may find when we start to see the actual 

         2          enrollment statistics, that we only need to 

         3          have one of those under contract.  But we'll 

         4          have two of them ready and preselected and 

         5          ready to go.

         6              So that's the thought process behind this 

         7          product design architecture.

         8              Item Number 4 -- I mean, if there are any 

         9          questions, I'm certainly happy to answer 

        10          them --

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions? 

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

        13              MR. HERNDON:  -- but --

        14              Item Number 4 is our fourth in a series of 

        15          implementation status reports on the 

        16          defined contribution program. 

        17              And, Governor, and members, with your 

        18          permission, I thought I might spend a minute 

        19          and talk about this.  There has been a lot of 

        20          activity.  Overall, our progress has been very 

        21          good.  We've moved along essentially on all 

        22          fronts. 

        23              And I thought it might be worthwhile to 

        24          just touch on a couple of those that don't 

        25          quite come through when you read the dry -- the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           9
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          dry facts.

         2              And this is not in any particular order.  

         3          But working from the standpoint of asset 

         4          transition, how we move the money from the 

         5          DB plan to the DC plan, we had our first rule 

         6          hearing on proposed rules on asset transition 

         7          this week.  We had some good suggestions. 

         8              We have a draft of the RFI for a transition 

         9          broker that's currently being circulated in the 

        10          staff for review.  Hope to have that out in the 

        11          course of the next couple of weeks.

        12              We'll obviously take that in front of the 

        13          Advisory Council, and so forth, also on the 

        14          29th.

        15              We should get the additional actuarial 

        16          estimates from Mercer and from 

        17          Milliman & Roberts this week.  So we'll have 

        18          three different actuarial estimates of the 

        19          likely amounts of money that we're 

        20          transferring. 

        21              Those really formed the cornerstone of an 

        22          awful lot of the later work that we're doing in 

        23          terms of the number of managers that we hire; 

        24          the kind of transition planning that we do; the 

        25          education program that we design, its scope, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          10
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          its scale, and so forth.

         2              So all of that information is coming 

         3          together.  And we're on track to have that 

         4          transition broker in place shortly after the 

         5          first of the year.

         6              The first product that actually hit the 

         7          street was an RFI for a third party 

         8          administrator for a record keeper.  We had over 

         9          100-page RFI that was released.  It was all out 

        10          on the web. 

        11              That product I think was by-in-large well 

        12          received by the industry.  We had slightly over 

        13          100 questions that were sent back to us to 

        14          answer.  We answered all of those questions.  

        15          And at that point, two protests were filed to 

        16          that RFI, and the solicitation process has 

        17          halted per the statute.

        18              Now, the vendors out there who were in the 

        19          process of preparing their response to that RFI 

        20          are free to continue to do whatever they wish 

        21          to do in the way of preparation. 

        22              But actually submitting their bids, or our 

        23          evaluating their bids, or anything like that, 

        24          is -- is halted until this particular DOAH 

        25          hearing is resolved.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          11
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              We will go before DOAH next week with some 

         2          responses to the protests, ask for expedited 

         3          hearings. 

         4              I might add, by -- by the way, too, that we 

         5          met with both of the protesting parties before 

         6          they filed their protests -- or before their 

         7          protests were -- were official, to see if there 

         8          was any way that we could mitigate their 

         9          concerns.  They -- did not prove to be 

        10          possible. 

        11              But we are also planning on scheduling some 

        12          additional meetings the first part of next week 

        13          before we filed our responses to see if we can 

        14          mitigate some of their concerns.

        15              So --

        16              Yes, sir.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm a little confused about 

        18          the protests for -- I would have thought that 

        19          the protest would have been on the next 

        20          Request for Proposal, or --

        21              MR. HERNDON:  Right.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Request for Information, 

        23          not this one.

        24              Why -- why -- if -- if these entities that 

        25          are protesting are not going to bid on the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          12
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          third party administrator work, why are they 

         2          protesting it? 

         3              MR. HERNDON:  I'm a little reluctant to put 

         4          myself in their shoes.  But if you'll accept 

         5          for the moment that this is --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Speculate.

         7              MR. HERNDON:  -- a little speculative on my 

         8          part, my impression is that they believe that 

         9          the RFI, as currently drafted, precludes them 

        10          from bidding as they might like for subsequent 

        11          work, since it is, in their view, not 

        12          consistent with their bundled strategy. 

        13              And that's -- I think --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But the law's pretty clear, 

        15          isn't it, that there's a third party 

        16          administrator, and then there are the 

        17          investment options.

        18              MR. HERNDON:  That's certainly our 

        19          position, Governor.  And we've tried to 

        20          maintain that position pretty consistently 

        21          throughout, that the law says there shall be 

        22          one third party record keeper, that you cannot 

        23          be a record keeper and be an investment 

        24          provider, that you cannot be an investment 

        25          provider and be an educator. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          13
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              I mean, we think it's pretty clear.

         2              But perhaps there's a way that -- that the 

         3          courts can --

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you -- is the RFI 

         5          defining the third party administrator in such 

         6          broad terms that -- is that the possibility 

         7          where -- is that the -- where there could be a 

         8          disagreement? 

         9              MR. HERNDON:  Well, we -- we've tried to 

        10          indicate that -- that there are some 

        11          administrative functions that we would 

        12          anticipate that the bundled provider needs to 

        13          perform, and -- and has to perform, but it 

        14          wouldn't be the full panoply of services that a 

        15          central record keeper would perform.

        16              I'm not sure that that's satisfactory.  At 

        17          least my impression is from their point of 

        18          view, it's not. 

        19              So that's where we are.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Senator, any questions? 

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just a quick 

        22          question, Governor, on -- on impact on the 

        23          program, Tom.

        24              MR. HERNDON:  Right now we're okay because 

        25          we had not anticipated receiving back the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          14
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          responses to the RFI until the 21st of this 

         2          month.  We've still got that period of time 

         3          that the vendors can continue to prepare their 

         4          responses. 

         5              If the judicial process drags on 

         6          indefinitely, then clearly our ability to meet 

         7          our deadlines and provide the kind of 

         8          infrastructure that you have to have is 

         9          compromised.

        10              What we've told the vendor community is, 

        11          this Court process does build in some delays.  

        12          It inures to your benefit in the sense that it 

        13          gives you more time to actually prepare your 

        14          response.

        15              So once the Court answers these questions, 

        16          we will call for those responses immediately; 

        17          basically, you won't get 30 more days, or 

        18          60 more days.

        19              Whether or not that adds a month or -- or 

        20          two, I -- I don't know.  At this point, I --

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So it's too early to 

        22          tell.  But it could have a significant impact 

        23          on the dates that have been set by the 

        24          Legislature.

        25              MR. HERNDON:  It certainly could. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          15
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

         2              MR. HERNDON:  And -- and that's a distinct 

         3          possibility that we're very mindful of.

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

         5              MR. HERNDON:  And part of the reason, I 

         6          might add, why we're trying to move forward on 

         7          as many other fronts as we can concurrently. 

         8              And on that point, let me just say, on 

         9          the -- on the education program, we've 

        10          successfully completed our search for a media 

        11          consultant, hired a firm out of New York. 

        12              We have an education RFI that was -- the 

        13          responses were due back on Tuesday afternoon.  

        14          We got a very good set of responses, over 

        15          21 firms responded.  Some of the biggest 

        16          national and international media firms in the 

        17          country have responded.  We feel very pleased 

        18          with that -- with that work.

        19              Product design you saw this morning.  We'll 

        20          be taking the selection -- proposed selection 

        21          and evaluation criteria for the investment 

        22          managers to the Advisory Council on the 29th; 

        23          and then later on, to you in December.  That's 

        24          moving forward very satisfactorily.

        25              The final point, of course, is the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          16
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          Investment Policy Statement which, I think, 

         2          Governor, as -- as you were kind of pointing 

         3          out, is kind of the -- the origin of an awful 

         4          lot of what is now taking place. 

         5              The deadline for protests is the 27th of 

         6          this month.  We anticipate a protest.  We've 

         7          been told that it will be protested.  We'll see 

         8          if that, in fact, occurs.

         9              We would hope, and -- and certainly 

        10          anticipate that any protests on that, and on 

        11          the third party administrator, are essentially 

        12          the same.  I mean, they're making the same 

        13          arguments.  And perhaps they can be 

        14          consolidated --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But these --

        16              MR. HERNDON:  -- and expedited.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- will it be seen by the 

        18          same judge? 

        19              MR. HERNDON:  That I -- I -- I don't know, 

        20          Governor.  I -- I don't know that that's 

        21          necessarily the way DOAH would work. 

        22              But we, I think, are interested in trying 

        23          to have these pleadings consolidated, because 

        24          I think they go to the same set of issues.

        25              So --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          17
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions? 

         2              MR. HERNDON:  Thank you.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Tom. 

         4              (The State Board of Administration Agenda 

         5          was concluded.)

         6                              *   *   *




















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE             18
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Division of Bond Finance.

         2              MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 1 is approval of 

         3          the minutes of the October 24th meeting.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on minutes.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 2 is approval of 

         9          a resolution authorizing the competitive sale 

        10          of up to 32.2 million dollars of Board of 

        11          Regents Revenue Bonds for construction of a 

        12          dormitory for University of Central Florida.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        14              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        16              Without objection, it's approved.

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Move to --

        18              MR. WATKINS:  I'd like to --  

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- defer Item 3.

        20              MR. WATKINS:  Excuse me? 

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'd move to defer 

        22          Item 3.

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's what you wanted -- 

        25              MR. WATKINS:  Yes.  

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE             19
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- isn't it?

         2              MR. WATKINS:  I'd like a deferral of 

         3          Item 3.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motion to defer and second.

         5              Without objection, it's approved.

         6              MR. WATKINS:  Very good. 

         7              Thank you.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you. 

         9              (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was 

        10          concluded.)

        11                              *   *   *















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      20
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Florida Department of Law 

         2          Enforcement.

         3              Commissioner.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on --

         5              MR. MOORE:  Good morning, Governor --

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- minutes.

         7              MR. MOORE:  -- Cabinet.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on minutes.

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second on 

        10          the minutes.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        12              Without objection, it's approved.

        13              Treasurer Gallagher's in a hurry.

        14              MR. MOORE:  I gathered as much.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Board of Regents 

        16          meeting down in Miami.  Big stuff going on.  

        17          I've got to get to it.

        18              MR. MOORE:  Governor, Item 2 is the 

        19          quarterly report for the Department for the 

        20          year of -- first quarter of July 1 fiscal year.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        23              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        24              MR. MOORE:  Could I --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      21
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              MR. MOORE:  -- could I mention a -- a 

         2          program there, Governor, that I'm real proud 

         3          of?

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can I -- can we -- can we 

         5          move and second it? 

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              Yes, you can.

         8              MR. MOORE:  Thank you, sir.

         9              This past quarter, we launched something 

        10          called Operation THUGS, taking hoodlums who use 

        11          guns seriously here in Florida, targeting some 

        12          254 --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you remember what the 

        14          acronym stands for?

        15              MR. MOORE:  Taking Hoodlums Who Use Guns 

        16          Seriously.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        18              MR. MOORE:  Very seriously.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's one of my favorites.

        20              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  That one's okay?

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I thought you 

        22          didn't like them.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  THUGS.

        24              MR. MOORE:  We identified 251 violent 

        25          felony fugitives who had between them over 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      22
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          5,000 arrests.  They had outstanding warrants 

         2          for a violent felony offense in Florida. 

         3              And the other commonality they had, they'd 

         4          all used a firearm during the commission of 

         5          their crime. 

         6              To date, we've captured 56 of those thugs, 

         7          and they're now back in jail where they belong.  

         8          We used technology to do that.  We went on the 

         9          Internet and -- and put the pictures of those 

        10          thugs in every city that -- where the warrant 

        11          had been issued. 

        12              And we went a step further and offered 

        13          $1,000 reward to the public if they'd help us 

        14          find those individuals and -- and get them 

        15          arrested.

        16              Success there is -- it's continuing to 

        17          improve, and we're staying focused on that 

        18          target.  The 54 we captured had over 

        19          1500 arrests between them. 

        20              Now, that's more arrests than 19 of our 

        21          counties had individually in the calendar year 

        22          1999.  So it was, indeed, a -- a crime wave 

        23          there, those -- those 54.

        24              Programs like that, Governor, and members 

        25          of the Cabinet, is why I think we're seeing 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      23
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          this 20 percent reduction in gun related 

         2          violence in Florida that we saw the first full 

         3          year of 10-20-Life here since it was passed.  

         4          So I'm encouraged by that. 

         5              And following your direction, we're going 

         6          to continue targeting on these individuals in 

         7          the state of Florida.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Treasurer Gallagher.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  What -- how -- how 

        10          much money did we pay out to pick these guys 

        11          up?  Did -- did -- 

        12              MR. MOORE:  Well, so far, we're -- we've 

        13          paid under $10,000 to pick these up.  But I'm 

        14          encouraging the public, and we're continuing to 

        15          encourage the public, not to take enforcement 

        16          action on their own, but if they've --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

        18              MR. MOORE:  -- got information on these -- 

        19          these hoodlums, let us know, and we'll go after 

        20          them.

        21              Governor, yesterday as well, you hosted  

        22          the first ever State of Technology Conference 

        23          here in the state of Florida, and we talked as 

        24          a state about the things that we're doing in 

        25          technology that is helping us do a better job 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      24
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          deliver our services to our citizens. 

         2              And there are several applications here in 

         3          the state of Florida that I'm particularly 

         4          proud of in the area of public safety.  One 

         5          that you helped champion the cause on last year 

         6          was to add burglary as a predicate crime for 

         7          adding samples to our DNA database. 

         8              And during this past quarter, we picked up 

         9          and -- and solved a rate for -- for a crime 

        10          using the first sample of that burglary into 

        11          the database.  So we're having success in that 

        12          already. 

        13              We've add-- as you'll see from that 

        14          quarterly report, we've added 2400 additional 

        15          samples.  And by the end of this calendar year, 

        16          we will add another 24,000 burglary convictions 

        17          to that database, giving us in excess of 

        18          70,000 entries into that database now, and 

        19          solving crimes across our state in ways that we 

        20          all hoped that it would.

        21              Finally, you and General Milligan 

        22          co-hosted, along with us, a -- a partnership -- 

        23          public/private partnership back at the end of 

        24          September where we brought together some 

        25          80 corporate individuals of businesses across 

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                                 November 16, 2000
         1          the state of Florida to work with all of our 

         2          regulatory agencies here in Florida, consistent 

         3          with our strike force against fraudulent 

         4          enterprises, looking for ways that we could 

         5          forge coalitions and work corporately to keep 

         6          fraudsters from victimizing our citizens.

         7              At that time, we promised the participants, 

         8          some -- again, some 80 corporate individuals, 

         9          that we would give them by yesterday, access 

        10          via to our strikeforce against 

        11          fraudulent enterprises database, a database of 

        12          some 200,000 plus entries of people that have 

        13          either been complained against, or convicted of 

        14          fraud offenses here in the state of Florida.

        15              Well, yesterday, I promised, we turned that 

        16          database on, again through to all 

        17          of those corporate sponsors, and -- and 

        18          petitioners, and they're now using that data to 

        19          help us make sure that we keep people from 

        20          victimizing our citizens here in this state.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Excuse me, Commissioner. 

        22              Could I just -- could you move just a 

        23          little bit?  That's the Mayor of Jacksonville, 

        24          and he probably is interested in the --

        25              Thank you.

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                                 November 16, 2000
         1              If y'all could just recognize, there are 

         2          people here that are actually interested in the 

         3          agenda, we'd be grateful.

         4              Mayor, how are you doing?  Good to see you 

         5          now.

         6              MR. MOORE:  Good.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Please.

         8              MR. MOORE:  Governor, our charge now is to 

         9          continue populating that database amongst the 

        10          20 agencies, investigative and regulatory, in 

        11          the state of Florida to make sure that the left 

        12          hand knows what the right's doing in terms of 

        13          individuals who are victimizing our citizens.

        14              We're making much progress there, and I'm 

        15          proud of the fact that that -- that database is 

        16          now available to our corporate partners.  And I 

        17          thank you and the Comptroller for helping 

        18          sponsor that partnership. 

        19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I might, 

        20          Governor --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- the -- one of the 

        23          challenges has been to really get all of the 

        24          agencies to participate in providing 

        25          appropriate data into that fight fraud 

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                                 November 16, 2000
         1          database. 

         2              And since we have all the agencies head -- 

         3          heads here, I would encourage you all to work 

         4          with your folks, and -- and get that done.  It 

         5          is an extraordinarily valuable service.  We are 

         6          expanding it into the private domain. 

         7              Early in January we anticipate that any 

         8          citizen in Florida will be able to access the 

         9          database, and we are working with the private 

        10          sector, and will be working with the 

        11          Legislature to see what the private sector can 

        12          put into this database in terms of information 

        13          that they have. 

        14              And so it's a great opportunity to get 

        15          information out to -- to needy communities, 

        16          citizens, and so forth.  But we need to get our 

        17          own act in order, and I encourage you all to -- 

        18          to be participants.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Is there --

        20              I have a question.

        21              Is there a -- a safeguard or some filter 

        22          that --

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- would stop 

        25          somebody from, you know, not liking somebody 

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                                 November 16, 2000
         1          and popping their name in there? 

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Absolutely. 

         3              To say it is fail-safe, with today's 

         4          ability of some people to hack into systems, 

         5          I -- I wouldn't go that far.  But every 

         6          security measure that we can take, has been 

         7          taken. 

         8              And, Tim, you might want to amplify on 

         9          that.

        10              MR. MOORE:  That's correct.  The only entry 

        11          that can be made into that database is from one 

        12          of the agencies, one of the regulatory 

        13          agencies, or one of the investigative agencies. 

        14              And all this data are representative of 

        15          closed cases; not active, ongoing cases.  That 

        16          was a condition for the business partners to 

        17          participate.

        18              So I'm, like the -- like the Comptroller, 

        19          comfortable with the fact that we have the 

        20          safeguards on the front end to pre-- prevent 

        21          what you're talking about.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You're including 

        23          closed cases that there was no prosecution on?  

        24              MR. MOORE:  Closed cases if there were 

        25          prosecutions, or if there were no prosecutions.  

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         1          That's public record in the state of Florida --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Okay.

         3              MR. MOORE:  -- and we --

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So it's 

         5          basically -- you're exposing --

         6              MR. MOORE:  -- we just --

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the total 

         8          public -- 

         9              MR. MOORE:  -- we put it together.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- record.

        11              MR. MOORE:  Exactly.  Exactly.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But I heard 

        13          somebody say that the corporate can put data 

        14          in.  What -- where would they --

        15              MR. MOORE:  Well, we're not there yet.  

        16          We're encouraging them to do that, and to work 

        17          with us in terms of sharing data with us in the 

        18          future of complaints that they've had against 

        19          individuals that are victimizing their 

        20          companies. 

        21              A lot of those complaints would be the same 

        22          as those that we have received in the state of 

        23          Florida, either in a regulatory agency, or an 

        24          investigative agency --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right.

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         1              MR. MOORE:  -- and pursued.  But we're not 

         2          there just yet.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But -- but how 

         4          would -- how would they have one that -- that 

         5          our investigative agencies wouldn't know about?  

         6              MR. MOORE:  Well, all of those -- those 

         7          corporations, as you know, particularly the big 

         8          ones, have huge investigative arms and elements 

         9          that we work jointly with day in and day out. 

        10              The majority of the complaints that they 

        11          would receive would be in the investigative 

        12          agencies, or in the regulatory agencies. 

        13              But there's those from time to time that 

        14          aren't.  We're encouraging this -- this full 

        15          exchange of information --

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But when they gave 

        17          it to -- they'd give it to one of our 

        18          investigative agencies that would look at it, 

        19          and put it on or not put it on, depending on 

        20          its --

        21              MR. MOORE:  That's correct.  That's 

        22          correct.

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  There -- there are 

        24          some questions of liability that we have to 

        25          sort out, Tom.  And that's part of what is 

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         1          being looked at at this point in time. 

         2              But identity thefts, and those types of 

         3          things, are information that the -- the private 

         4          sector may be willing to put into the database.

         5              So we'll see where it goes.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General?

         7              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, 

         8          thank you.

         9              Tim, can this be expanded, or is it already 

        10          there, to where we find that since there's so 

        11          many elderly people here in the state of 

        12          Florida, and so many -- so many elderly people 

        13          are scammed by telemarketers, as well as some 

        14          of the mail scams. 

        15              And many times, because their jurisdictions 

        16          are so small -- I mean, so far as a city or -- 

        17          if they cross city lines, a lot of times, 

        18          law enforcement in one agency may not be 

        19          communicating directly with the other agency, 

        20          except maybe at monthly meetings or weekly 

        21          meetings.  Can this be expanded to, if -- if, 

        22          in fact, there appears to be a certain type of 

        23          scam occurring in a community where -- where 

        24          law enforcement can at least put that 

        25          particular type of scam on the Internet so -- 

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         1          where other officers can then look and see if 

         2          they're having the same type of thing. 

         3              Because many times we find that, well, only 

         4          one person complained in our community, but 

         5          somebody might have complained in -- in a 

         6          neighborhood community.

         7              MR. MOORE:  Exactly. 

         8              Ultimately where we want to be is -- the 

         9          state of Florida, consistent with the direction 

        10          you gave us as the -- as our governing body 

        11          several months ago, is we'll have a common 

        12          complaint, receipt, and referral database in 

        13          the state of Florida. 

        14              Now, Commissioner Crawford handles 

        15          thousands of those a year now.  We want to 

        16          build on that good -- on that good operation, 

        17          and have a common complaint and referral 

        18          center. 

        19              When those complaints start coming in then, 

        20          and if there's gypsy roofers, or -- or -- or 

        21          road paver scammers that are -- that are 

        22          starting to work in Escambia County, then 

        23          intelligence is real and immediate, and we can 

        24          start alerting people by regions, and 

        25          ultimately statewide that, hey, be on the 

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         1          lookout for these kind of scams. 

         2              We can do that based on the suggestions 

         3          that you have there.

         4              Now, local law enforcement and local 

         5          prosecutors are participants in this as well.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  They --

         7              MR. MOORE:  They have been at the table 

         8          with us. 

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  

        10          Commissioner, since we have the worldwide media 

        11          here, we can send a signal out that 

        12          telemarketers that are calling in to the state 

        13          of Florida, your days are numbered.  Okay?   

        14              MR. MOORE:  We have some good -- we have 

        15          some good tough laws, and some good people that 

        16          are out there protecting Floridians.  So --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sure it'll --

        18              MR. MOORE:  -- don't come down here --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- make the --

        20              MR. MOORE:  -- to do your business.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- national news tonight.

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It'll be the 

        23          top story in the news -- 

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It'll be the 

        25          number one story.  You got it.

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         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Maybe second.

         2              MR. MOORE:  Governor -- Item 3, Governor, 

         3          is final approval recommended for a rule we 

         4          initiated back earlier this year, consistent 

         5          with the Cabinet's rulemaking authority, to 

         6          adopt the specific legislative direction we 

         7          were given last session to lower the firearms 

         8          purchase fee from $8 back to the $5 fee that 

         9          was originally put in place when the program 

        10          was implemented. 

        11              We have published and -- notice of this 

        12          rule and rulemaking, as required by your 

        13          guidelines and the state of Florida guidelines. 

        14              We've had no input or concerns regarding 

        15          this rule, and I'd recommend final approval to 

        16          you.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        19              TREASURER NELSON:  Second.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        21              Any discussion? 

        22              Moved and seconded. 

        23              Without objection, it's approved.

        24              MR. MOORE:  Thank you.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Commissioner.

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         1              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

         3              TREASURER NELSON:  -- may I make a -- a 

         4          comment to Tim before you leave? 

         5              I -- I don't know if you're going to be 

         6          here in our last Cabinet meeting.  But I just 

         7          want to tell you what a delight it has been in 

         8          the professional relationship that we've had in 

         9          our two law enforcement operations, Division of 

        10          Insurance Fraud, and also the arson 

        11          investigators in the State Fire Marshal's 

        12          Office. 

        13              And working with you has been a -- a truly 

        14          professional delight, and it has also been a 

        15          great help.  And -- and thank you for the 

        16          compliments. 

        17              Most people do not know that it was one of 

        18          our investigators in the arson investigation 

        19          that broke open that Florida A&M bomber case.  

        20          And you were very kind to call me to thank us 

        21          for that.

        22              And we appreciate the relationship.

        23              MR. MOORE:  Thank you, Senator, and so do 

        24          we. 

        25              Thank you much. 

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         1              TREASURER NELSON:  Thanks.

         2              MR. MOORE:  And good luck to you, sir.

         3              TREASURER NELSON:  Thanks.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You going somewhere? 

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You're not 

         6          coming to next week's Cabinet meeting?

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You're -- are you leaving 

         8          before or something?  What's --

         9              TREASURER NELSON:  No.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're going to organize a 

        11          good good-bye.  Don't worry.

        12              TREASURER NELSON:  Do we have -- how many 

        13          more Cabinet meetings do we have before the end 

        14          of the year? 

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, we have one in 

        16          Melbourne.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  Very good.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Gets to go home.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So we'll do that.

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  Very good.

        21              (The Florida Department of Law Enforcement 

        22          Agenda was concluded.)

        23                              *   *   *



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         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Department of 

         2          Highway Safety.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         4          minutes.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              Item 2.

         9              MR. DICKINSON:  Item 2, Governor, is 

        10          approval of our quarterly report ending 

        11          September 2000.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        16              Without objection, it's approved.

        17              MR. DICKINSON:  Item 3 is the submission of 

        18          our Department legislative package for 2001. 

        19              I would like to point out a couple items.  

        20          I know it's pretty noncontroversial from what 

        21          I've heard. 

        22              So -- no, I'm just --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You can't match controversy 

        24          right now.  So go ahead.

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Go ahead, give it a 

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         1          try.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Just -- I dare you to 

         3          become controversial today.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It --

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Please 

         6          become controversial.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  This is the time 

         8          to do it, because nobody would recognize it.

         9              MR. DICKINSON:  We have a couple of items 

        10          that are to be withdrawn from the package. 

        11              One is a law enforcement item that I talked 

        12          with the Comptroller about.  And we'll be 

        13          working on that in the future with -- with a 

        14          number of you.

        15              The other item is an item that we -- 

        16          currently we suspend your driving privilege and 

        17          your tags -- or actually only suspend what you 

        18          have floated us a check for. 

        19              If you give us a bad check, we'll go in 

        20          there and get your driver's license or suspend 

        21          it.  We were seeking to expand that. 

        22              We're going to go back and narrow it down 

        23          to just what you've given the check for.  So 

        24          that also has been withdrawn.

        25              There is an item in here, and I think, 

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         1          Governor, you and the General will be 

         2          interested in this, that goes to our problem 

         3          on -- when we have fatalities or serious 

         4          injuries. 

         5              We have authorized medical personnel to 

         6          provide us with the blood when they take it 

         7          from someone involved in one of those crashes.  

         8          Hopefully will help us in some of those 

         9          horrible situations.  But that's also included 

        10          here.

        11              As well as a proposal to do some fund 

        12          shifting that would -- we would absorb all the 

        13          costs for our Internet fees, and any other fees 

        14          that you might want to go through us for 

        15          renewals. 

        16              Don't know how that'll fly upstairs, but -- 

        17          in the Legislature, but we're going to make a 

        18          stab at it.

        19              And as you are all aware, we have the -- 

        20          the flat rate fee included in here.  What we're 

        21          striving to do is to condense or consolidate 

        22          about 97 class codes that we currently operate 

        23          under, down to a more manageable number. 

        24              And what we've done in this package is 

        25          brought it down to one.  You pay a flat $43 fee 

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         1          for every plate in Florida.  I understand -- 

         2          and we understood this on the front end -- this 

         3          was going to be open for some consternation.  

         4          About 70 percent of the Floridians would pay a 

         5          lower fee in this.  The -- the remaining 

         6          30 percent would pay a little more.  And the -- 

         7          the -- that 30 percent would be the lower 

         8          category weight class of vehicle.

         9              So the -- the reason I'm pointing this out 

        10          to you is that we know this is the start of the 

        11          process.  We have some fallbacks, quite 

        12          frankly, to fall back three to five categories.  

        13          Still much better -- much improved over the 

        14          current 97. 

        15              And I understand they're -- we'll -- we'll 

        16          be working this process.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom?

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  On this -- this 

        19          blood sample deal --

        20              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.  Uh-hum.  

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- this -- I just 

        22          want to be clear on this.

        23              This is, if, in fact, during the normal 

        24          medical attention given to a person that is 

        25          hospitalized, blood samples are taken, you can 

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         1          have some of that. 

         2              This is not an authorization for your 

         3          Department or your personnel to go request and 

         4          get a blood sample. 

         5              Am I correct or am I incorrect? 

         6              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes and yes. 

         7              You -- currently we can request -- if we 

         8          have probable cause, we can request the medical 

         9          personnel to take that blood. 

        10              This says just what you said on the front 

        11          end of that, if in the crash, we don't ask for 

        12          it, but the medical personnel happens to take 

        13          the blood, then it can be turned over to 

        14          law enforcement and used.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Okay. 

        16              MR. DICKINSON:  Does that answer what --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That does.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  This is a result of y'all's 

        19          work after the fatality in Broward County, 

        20          right? 

        21              MR. DICKINSON:  Absolutely.

        22              Actually, Governor, we have been interested 

        23          in this for several years.  I think four to 

        24          five years ago it was also proposed, and there 

        25          was some constitutionality, some 

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         1          fourth amendment problems that we encountered. 

         2              This is our stab at getting around -- 

         3          around that -- the unconstitutional problem.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         5          legislative package, as amended.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         7              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         8              TREASURER NELSON:  Well -- 

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, let me get some 

        11          clarification. 

        12              What -- what does, as amended -- does that 

        13          include your recommendation for this $43 fee? 

        14              MR. DICKINSON:  It includes the 

        15          recommendation that we put that in our 

        16          legislative package.  I -- I wanted y'all to 

        17          understand that we are -- we're not pushing for 

        18          that particular proposal per se.

        19              What I want to do is put it on the table, 

        20          and let's debate it, which I -- I see happening 

        21          here, the start of it.  I guarantee you, the 

        22          Legislature's going to take a more active -- or 

        23          as an active role in this thing. 

        24              The tax collectors are joining with us on 

        25          this. 

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         1              And what we'd like to do is put it out 

         2          there, and -- you know how the process will 

         3          take it from there. 

         4              But, yes, sir, it is in our legislative 

         5          package.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I -- I looked at 

         7          it as it's -- it's there to go to the 

         8          Legislature for discussion, as opposed to, this 

         9          is what we're recommending.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, I'm opposed to it. 

        11              And either -- I can either vote against the 

        12          proposal, or I can amend. 

        13              Simply, I don't think that 50 -- well, you 

        14          said 70 percent of the people that would be 

        15          paying less than $43 ought to suddenly have 

        16          that jacked up.

        17              The old fee was based on a -- a weight 

        18          category.  And if we are in a time of concern 

        19          of energy conservation, what we ought to be 

        20          doing is encouraging lighter vehicles and more 

        21          efficient vehicles. 

        22              And to suddenly jack up their license tag 

        23          fee, whereas under the present schedule, the 

        24          lower weight vehicles pay less, to jack that up 

        25          and ask them to pay more in order to -- just to 

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         1          have a statewide average doesn't seem to me to 

         2          be good public policy.

         3              So, Governor, how would you like us to 

         4          proceed? 

         5              Would you like me to offer an amendment, or 

         6          just to take an up or down vote? 

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I think probably for safety 

         8          purposes, since we're nearing the completion of 

         9          an election year, this is the kind of thing 

        10          that you see on TV ads. 

        11              You may want to have it -- I don't know 

        12          how -- I mean, there -- there's a way to do 

        13          this where you can allow the debate to occur 

        14          without it being officially part of your 

        15          legislative package, isn't there, Fred? 

        16              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Why don't -- why 

        18          don't --

        19              MR. DICKINSON:  May I offer something?

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Why don't we --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- just remove 

        23          that from our -- our recommendations as -- 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's a sad time.  But it's 

        25          actually the case, that you could see a really 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        45
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          stupid TV ad which stifles the ability to have 

         2          some kind of debate about something that 

         3          might -- might actually make a lot of sense.  

         4          It might be an efficiency measure.

         5              One thing I want to make clear though, 

         6          did -- did the -- did Senator Nelson get it 

         7          backwards, or -- or was it 70 percent will see 

         8          a reduction, and 30 percent will see an 

         9          increase, or --

        10              MR. DICKINSON:  That's correct.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the other way around?

        12              MR. DICKINSON:  No, sir.  Seventy percent 

        13          will see a reduction.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Because on -- our -- our 

        15          statistics here said 40 to 50 percent.  So it 

        16          was about even.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  All right.  Let me -- 

        18          see if this is correct, Fred.

        19              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  Fifty percent of the 

        21          people now pay $37 or less; is that correct? 

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  You can't figure it 

        23          out.

        24              MR. DICKINSON:  I think it's 

        25          thirty-seven fifty.  But -- okay.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        46
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              TREASURER NELSON:  Thirty-seven fifty or 

         2          less. 

         3              Fifty percent of the people now.

         4              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.

         5              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay. 

         6              MR. DICKINSON:  No.

         7              TREASURER NELSON:  Therefore, if you jacked 

         8          it up to $43, we know that that 50 percent is 

         9          going to be paying more.

        10              MR. DICKINSON:  I'm going to -- I'm going 

        11          to backtrack for one second.  I think it's -- 

        12          I think the figures are 30 percent are in the 

        13          low weight category, and they would pay --

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, the -- the 

        15          figure you gave said 14.88 percent are in the 

        16          lowest weight category, $29 category.

        17              MR. DICKINSON:  I'm going up to --

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  

        19          Thirty-seven percent are in the -- 

        20              MR. DICKINSON:  The lowest two categories?

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But it tends to 

        22          stay the same, I guess.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The lowest two, 

        24          you add the 14 and the 37 together, don't you?

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor, we could 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        47
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          spend a lot of time on this --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Why don't we just 

         3          pull this out of there?

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I recommend 

         5          that we --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yank it.

         7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- amend the -- the 

         8          project right now to exclude that as part of 

         9          the package, and --

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  Then I will second that.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Senator.

        12              There's a motion and a second to approve 

        13          the package as amended.

        14              Without objection, it's approved.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Simple 

        16          solution to a difficult problem.

        17              Just get rid of it.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Move it on to 

        19          somebody else.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Hmm.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's the 

        22          way you deal with it.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You've been going 

        24          for difficult solutions to simple problems.

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        48
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          right.

         2              If I can just ask Fred one question. 

         3              Fred, I understand that you're going to be 

         4          changing your -- your accident reports the 

         5          first of the year in order to reflect crashes 

         6          that -- that might have been caused while -- 

         7          while the driver is distracted, such as reading 

         8          the Wall Street Journal, or watching TV? 

         9              Because -- because literally -- I mean, 

        10          cars are now -- literally offices now.  So --

        11              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir. 

        12              That crash report is being amended to take 

        13          into account distractions that may occur. 

        14              And we've also, under your suggestion, 

        15          asked our Troopers -- with all the other things 

        16          that are going on right now, asked our Troopers 

        17          to be a little more alert to tires, maybe some 

        18          mechanical defects that may occur. 

        19              And we had that happen, as a matter of 

        20          fact, over in Escambia County a couple of 

        21          months ago, where a young newlywed couple was 

        22          involved in a crash, and their seat belts 

        23          actually failed. 

        24              The first report was that they were not 

        25          belted.  The family got back to us, we went 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        49
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          back and did some investigations, and actually 

         2          we saw the burns on the -- on the hinges. 

         3              The seat belts actually didn't lock up when 

         4          they were supposed to.  Both were ejected.  And 

         5          the young bride of 6 hours was unfortunately 

         6          killed.

         7              But, yes, we're -- not only we're putting 

         8          it on the crash report, but we're -- we're 

         9          trying to train our guys and gals on the 

        10          Highway Patrol, and -- and have a little higher 

        11          awareness level.

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  What's good 

        13          about this is that the troopers are the 

        14          frontline defense against certain type of 

        15          defects that might be involved in -- whether it 

        16          be tires or whether it be automobiles. 

        17              When you see a pattern going -- I 

        18          understand you're going to make that available 

        19          to -- to national agencies and such like that. 

        20              Because you are the front line to protect 

        21          all of us against possible defects.

        22              MR. DICKINSON:  We're just following in --  

        23          in the training we got 15 years ago, General, 

        24          when -- 

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Thank you.  

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        50
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          That's --  

         2              MR. DICKINSON:  -- you were the head.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You had such 

         4          a -- you had such an enlightened Director back 

         5          then as --

         6              MR. DICKINSON:  We do have -- we did have, 

         7          incidentally, on this case in Escambia or -- 

         8          or -- or Walt-- Santa Rosa, we did have NHTSA 

         9          and Ford Motor.  It was unfortunately a 

        10          Ford Motor Company car. 

        11              But both of them came down to inspect 

        12          the -- the situation, and --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I bet they did.

        14              MR. DICKINSON:  -- I'm sure the -- the 

        15          trial lawyers will take it from there.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Probably 

        17          have 14 trial lawyers.  I mean --

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Don't go there.

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  They're all tied 

        20          up.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        22              MR. DICKINSON:  I think we need to approve 

        23          the --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We did.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We did.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                         HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES        51
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              MR. DICKINSON:  Oh, we did?

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  As amended.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  As amended.

         4              MR. DICKINSON:  Thank you, sir.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  With the auto tags 

         6          out.

         7              MR. DICKINSON:  Yes. 

         8              (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor 

         9          Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)

        10                              *   *   *
















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              52
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Department of Revenue.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              Dr. Zingale, how are you doing? 

         8              DR. ZINGALE:  Doing great. 

         9              Very brief status report today.  Very 

        10          brief.

        11              This is the -- this is the three-month 

        12          reporting in on our property tax study.

        13              (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)

        14              DR. ZINGALE:  We've got a tracking document 

        15          in place.  It has identified 43 actionable 

        16          items.  Five of those items have been fully 

        17          implemented.  Two of those items, the policy 

        18          has been implemented, and needs budget to fully 

        19          implement across all strata.

        20              Two, the policy has been implemented, and 

        21          it's in a phased-in schedule.  Three are behind 

        22          schedule.  One, delaying a month; two, part of 

        23          our search for best practices across the 

        24          country is experiencing some delays in getting 

        25          those results in, and 31 are on schedule.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              53
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              The tracking report has gotten a wide 

         2          distribution.  We gave it out to both property 

         3          appraisers association at their annual meeting 

         4          yesterday. 

         5              We have continued to work quite extensively 

         6          with the Auditor General and their staff, 

         7          particularly Dr. Whorton, the consultant.

         8              Are there any questions? 

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How was your meeting with 

        10          the property appraisers on --

        11              DR. ZINGALE:  Yesterday? 

        12              Had a nice teflon vest on, got up there and 

        13          said, our job was to follow the law, identify 

        14          what's right, and be fair.  And we are going to 

        15          do that. 

        16              And if at the end of this cycle that caused 

        17          some counties not to be in compliance, then 

        18          we'd be turning rolls down.  Our goal was to 

        19          try to help them all become in compliance. 

        20              It was an interesting meeting.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  How does one get 

        22          over 100 percent --

        23              (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- of valuation on 

        25          a piece of property when, in fact, we know that 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              54
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          that person would not sell the property for 

         2          that valuation? 

         3              MR. ZINGALE:  Complex question.  You're 

         4          talking the whole rolls, not on an individual 

         5          parcel of property.  If an individual parcel 

         6          felt that they were over, they could go in 

         7          front of the Value Adjustment Board and get it 

         8          down. 

         9              It primarily --

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But if -- if you 

        11          have no individual property above 100 percent, 

        12          how can you come up with the math that gives 

        13          you the whole roll being above 100 percent?

        14              DR. ZINGALE:  It -- it comes from two 

        15          different assessments of what that value is.  

        16          Okay? 

        17              One, from a property appraiser to be doing 

        18          a mass appraisal job. 

        19              Two, us doing where those over 100s are 

        20          coming in using that econometric approach we 

        21          talked about where the entire roll is valued.  

        22          And it's basically a disagreement between the 

        23          Department of Revenue's methodology and the 

        24          property appraiser's methodology in terms of 

        25          what was the economic activity over the prior 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              55
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          year. 

         2              If we forecast that growth in the overall 

         3          roll to be in excess of what the property 

         4          appraiser put it on, we can come in with ratios 

         5          over 100.

         6              If you think about it though, that's coming 

         7          with those counties that we are viewing as 

         8          fairly close to 100.  You've got a county whose 

         9          appraiser brought it in at fairly close to 100.  

        10          Our econometric forecast shows that slightly in 

        11          excess, and you can get a ratio over 100.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But aren't you 

        13          forcing assessors to undervalue properties 

        14          because of your econometrics? 

        15              DR. ZINGALE:  It's a question of who's 

        16          right, not a question of whether we're forcing 

        17          them to do one thing or another.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, if I'm -- if 

        19          I'm an assessor, I'm going to -- I'm going to 

        20          lean toward keeping them lower than the law 

        21          says in order not to be reported as over 

        22          100 percent.

        23              DR. ZINGALE:  That is certainly a 

        24          consequence of that finding.  It is why in this 

        25          action plan that you see here, we've engaged a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              56
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          national econometrician, Dr. Keith Ilnfeldt 

         2          from FSU.  He is the -- that emeritus scholar 

         3          we talked about specifically to work with our 

         4          econometric methodology to determine whether 

         5          it's sound. 

         6              It's not something that I would argue as 

         7          perfect last time around.  There's a lot of 

         8          time and effort going into it this year. 

         9              If a roll comes in over 100, and it can, 

        10          that would cause what you said to take place.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So -- but -- 

        12          here -- here's the problem.  You have an 

        13          elected assessor that's doing their job 

        14          correctly, and probably closer than some guys 

        15          that may not be doing it as correctly.

        16              DR. ZINGALE:  Uh-hum.  

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And -- so when 

        18          they -- their reward for this is they get 

        19          hammered from our Department of Revenue saying 

        20          they overassessed.

        21              DR. ZINGALE:  The nature of that analysis 

        22          says they did overassess.  We did sit down with 

        23          them individually and explain how we arrived at 

        24          that. 

        25              I would argue at this point in time that it 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              57
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          isn't a solid conclusion whether they were 

         2          doing a better job than that analysis said.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But -- but if none 

         4          of the properties in that county are over 

         5          100 percent of the value that they can sell it 

         6          for, which is what they technically should be 

         7          assessing it at, how can you say that they 

         8          overassessed?

         9              DR. ZINGALE:  The adjustment of value would 

        10          have to take into consideration that first and 

        11          eighth criteria, and that 15 percent adjustment 

        12          down. 

        13              You can end up with rolls that come in that 

        14          way.  You can end up with parcels that, based 

        15          on economic conditions, we believe the value 

        16          increased.  The homeowner may not believe the 

        17          value increased, or the commercial property may 

        18          not believe the value increased.  We believe 

        19          the value increased, and the property appraiser 

        20          didn't believe it increased as much. 

        21              Based on that, we don't bias the analysis 

        22          when it comes out at 101, and we say it's at 

        23          101.

        24              And we'll continue to do that, if that's 

        25          what the analysis shows.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              58
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But what you just 

         2          said is that you didn't believe -- that nobody 

         3          believed it increased that much, including the 

         4          tax assessor.  That would keep it below 100, 

         5          not above.

         6              DR. ZINGALE:  You've got parcels that could 

         7          have sold right side-by-side with -- that were 

         8          higher; you could have parcels that were sold 

         9          in similar market areas in other areas that 

        10          were higher. 

        11              You get very few that would be sitting down 

        12          there saying they would sell their property for 

        13          what that -- that assessed value was.

        14              But that --

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right.

        16              DR. ZINGALE:  -- that is the process today. 

        17              I've committed in this plan to look at it 

        18          at a very detailed level. 

        19              We are engaging people that have national 

        20          reputations in looking at it.  That is the 

        21          methodology -- we have been assessing values 

        22          like that over 100 for many years.  And if it's 

        23          wrong, we're going to fix it this year.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I -- I'm -- 

        25          I'm glad to hear you're looking into it, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              59
                                 November 16, 2000
         1          because they -- I think you're punishing those 

         2          assessors that do the best job at having it 

         3          close to a -- a real value, and --

         4              DR. ZINGALE:  Absolutely.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- rewarding those 

         6          that don't.  And I don't know that that's what 

         7          we ought to be doing in this state.

         8              DR. ZINGALE:  I understand.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Especially if we 

        10          have to deal with that in education, it's a -- 

        11          it's a major influence on the local required 

        12          effort.

        13              DR. ZINGALE:  Absolutely.

        14              And -- and you will see -- because I'm sure 

        15          it'll get a lot more attention when we bring 

        16          our legislative concepts next month --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Oh, I'm sure it 

        18          will.

        19              DR. ZINGALE:  -- and we've got one that 

        20          deals with that link into the FEFP. 

        21              And it is a concern I personally have in 

        22          terms of how those ratios are used in setting 

        23          millage.  Very difficult undertaking, one in 

        24          which statistics may not be the right way to go 

        25          about doing that.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              60
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Zingale, I would urge 

         2          the Butterworth principle here, which is, if 

         3          you make changes, make them simple, make them 

         4          commonsensical.  This is a very complex -- 

         5          I mean, this is really complex stuff.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It's -- it's real 

         7          hard to explain --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And there's so many --

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- to somebody --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- unintended 

        11          consequences --

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- that you can't explain.  

        14          I mean, I -- I -- I think you answered 

        15          Commissioner Gallagher's questions.  But it -- 

        16          a normal person listening to that would say, 

        17          well, that doesn't make any sense. 

        18              And so you're -- you're -- what you're 

        19          saying, I'm sure, is completely accurate, and 

        20          it's within the law and all that.  But if we're 

        21          going to make some changes, I would urge, not 

        22          overengineering it, but simplifying it.

        23              DR. ZINGALE:  Well, we're bringing in some 

        24          legislative concepts that directly address the 

        25          over 100 issue this time around.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              61
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It's got to be --

         2              DR. ZINGALE:  And --

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- addressed.  

         4          It's just --

         5              DR. ZINGALE:  -- it is -- we've gotten some 

         6          favorable response back from legislative staff 

         7          that it's been a long time since that's been 

         8          looked at. 

         9              Certainly the capping issue we brought in 

        10          front of you earlier kind of revealed it for 

        11          the first time.  It's been going on for a lot 

        12          longer than just this last year. 

        13              Statistics can be used very effectively to 

        14          do some things; setting millage sometimes, 

        15          that's not the best way to do it.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's a problem.

        17              DR. ZINGALE:  Thank you.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you. 

        19              (The Department of Revenue Agenda was 

        20          concluded.)

        21                              *   *   *





                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             62
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of Education.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Let me move the 

         3          minutes from September 26th and October 2nd.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is a reappointment and 

         8          appointments to the State Board of Community 

         9          Colleges: 

        10              Randall W. Hannah, reappointed; 

        11          Randolph Berridge; and Dr. George Thomas, 

        12          appointed, terms ending September 30th, 2005.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        16              Without objection, it's approved.

        17              Thank you, Wayne.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Board of Trustees.

        19              MR. PIERSON:  We've got a --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, I'm sorry.

        21              MR. PIERSON:  We have a correction.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  October 10th?

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  

        24          October 10th, not the 2nd.

        25              MR. PIERSON:  Yes.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             63
                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Change to 

         2          October 10th.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Gallagher --

         4              (The State Board of Education Agenda was 

         5          concluded.)

         6                              *   *   *




















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motion on the minutes for 

         2          the Board of Trustees, September 26th.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  

         6          October 24th.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  September 26th 

         8          meeting.

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  This is 

        10          Board of Trustees?

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.  It's --

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Mine says --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  -- the 26th.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- 

        16          October 24th.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  It's the 26th.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  My motion's on the 

        20          26th.  If you want to change it, have at it.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Well -- 

        22          well, I'm going to fire a Cabinet Aide then, 

        23          because my --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- mine says 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          October 24th.  So I don't --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any volunteers?

         3              No.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  How about we just 

         5          move both of them?

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We're going 

         7          to miss, you, Kent, till --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a 

         9          second.

        10              Without objection, it's approved.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Sorry. 

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think Kent 

        13          should abstain --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Sorry, Kent.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- from that 

        16          vote.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 2 is an item that 

        18          has been before you before.  It's known as the  

        19          Hawkins Avenue Corporation, or the Wood-Hopkins 

        20          contracting lease.  It's actually been before 

        21          you a number of times. 

        22              And I'd like to report, if I could, that 

        23          there have been some substantial changes and 

        24          improvements I believe to the project that are 

        25          responsive to some of the questions that you as 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          a Cabinet raised in earlier discussions.

         2              For starters, the channel that's being  

         3          proposed has been moved an additional 75 feet 

         4          from the homeowners' property.  You may recall 

         5          the industrial development is on the north 

         6          side, the homeowners are on the south side. 

         7              That proposal was originally to have a 

         8          channel that began dredging only 25 feet out 

         9          from their backyards.  That has now been pulled 

        10          back an additional 75 feet, so you've got 

        11          100 foot setback. 

        12              In addition to that, we have been working 

        13          to create a partnership with the homeowners.  

        14          You may remember them, Mrs. Kratz and Hodges 

        15          and Khan. 

        16              Working with them --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are they here today? 

        18              MR. STRUHS:  They -- they actually were 

        19          here, but chose to leave because they were so 

        20          comfortable and confident with the --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, darn it.  I wanted 

        22          to --

        23              MR. STRUHS:  -- resolution -- 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- say hello.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  -- achieved.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              We thought it was good news that they left, 

         2          because it actually meant that we were on the 

         3          same page, and they felt confident that we 

         4          could resolve their issues.

         5              What we're looking at, Governor, and 

         6          Cabinet, is the existence of a 1986 survey of 

         7          that shoreline in an effort in which the 

         8          Department and the land -- land owners, and 

         9          possibly with some assistance from the 

        10          Port Authority, will actually restore their 

        11          shoreline back to its historic measure. 

        12              And that provides them the protection that 

        13          they need, and allows the development project 

        14          to go forward.  And we will have good 

        15          neighbors.

        16              So with that as background, we're 

        17          recommending approval of this item, subject to 

        18          those conditions and a payment of $57,799.55.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion?

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        24              Without objection, it's approved.

        25              General Milligan, this is living proof that 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          the process does work, that public meetings can 

         2          make a difference, that people -- people's 

         3          voices can be heard, and they can shape policy.

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  That's right.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  A good example of that.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Best one I've seen so far.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  At least there is 

         8          one so far.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  It was a good one.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's good to 

        11          know.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Item -- Item Number 3, we're 

        13          recommending approval of that item.

        14              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        17              Without objection, it's approved.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 4 is -- is very 

        19          exciting, and I know you're all familiar with 

        20          it.  It's the Cedar Swamp acquisition. 

        21              This is, as you probably all know, a 

        22          remnant of an ancient and unique dune and swale 

        23          system that is just a few minutes from downtown 

        24          Jacksonville. 

        25              And what we've seen here is local political 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          leadership build some broad-based work in the 

         2          local community to make it a priority to 

         3          conserve this open space; preserve it for some 

         4          threatened plants and animals; preserve it as 

         5          an opportunity for recreation, like canoeing 

         6          and hiking and biking. 

         7              And in -- perhaps most interestingly, a 

         8          recognition by the local government that this 

         9          is good, smart growth management that is 

        10          actually cheaper in the long run for the 

        11          community to conserve and preserve this land 

        12          for those uses, rather than having to extend 

        13          infrastructure out there for additional 

        14          development.

        15              And it's a great privilege for me to be 

        16          able to introduce Mayor John Delaney, who made 

        17          the trip here this morning to describe this 

        18          program in a bit more detail.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, Mayor.

        20              MR. DELANEY:  Governor.

        21              Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

        22              Good to be before you again, and I 

        23          appreciate this opportunity.  We'd like to 

        24          start, first by saying that I drove over very, 

        25          very early from Jacksonville this morning. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              And my wife told me, Governor, to pass on 

         2          to you, and to Secretary Harris that her 

         3          prayers and thoughts are with you. 

         4              She rolled over and went back to sleep.  

         5          I'm sure she would have mentioned the other 

         6          five Cabinet members in the same breath.

         7              And I'll pass --

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Can you wake 

         9          her up, and --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- testimony.

        11              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Crawford needs 

        13          some, too, over there.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Thank you.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Butterworth 

        16          does, too.  I mean -- 

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.  You're out 

        18          there pretty far.

        19              MR. DELANEY:  As the Secretary pointed out, 

        20          and I would like to also thank the -- the DEP 

        21          and the Secretary and his staff for tremendous 

        22          cooperation.  We're very, very proud of the 

        23          working relationship. 

        24              Approximately two years ago, we began what 

        25          we called the preservation project in 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          Jacksonville, which is to preserve portions of 

         2          land and try to push growth and development 

         3          where we want it, and not -- go ahead and buy 

         4          it from willing sellers in areas where we 

         5          prefer not to have it. 

         6              We have a partnership with The Trust for 

         7          Public Land, and also the Nature Conservancy, a 

         8          citizens oversight committee, and the 

         9          City Council that evaluates these. 

        10              We've essentially divided the county into 

        11          five categories.  This particular parcel is in 

        12          the one that we describe as the, quote, high 

        13          growth corridor.  It's basically the center of 

        14          the urban activity, the urban growth in our 

        15          particular community. 

        16              And this particular piece is under a very 

        17          high degree of -- a threat of eminent 

        18          development.  In fact, there are permits 

        19          pending right now before our City Council in 

        20          the event that we are not able to purchase this 

        21          land for about a quarter of that land.

        22              It has again been reviewed by a local 

        23          citizens committee, by the City Council or the 

        24          County Commission in northeast Florida, by the 

        25          Water Management District, and, of course, the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          CARL staff and the DEP. 

         2              I personally took a look at the appraisal 

         3          and the values that came on.

         4              As to values, again, a similar review of 

         5          the assessments or the appraisals.  There's 

         6          been four appraisals done, one by the seller 

         7          himself for estate tax purposes, two by the 

         8          Water Management District as required by law.

         9              All of them are in the same basic range.  

        10          And the price is approximately 93 percent of 

        11          that particular value.

        12              We have in the packet that we've dropped 

        13          off showing some comparables.  They are again 

        14          substantially above the price that we are 

        15          paying here, especially as it relates to 

        16          potential commercial development. 

        17              This tract of land --

        18              I know, Governor, you're familiar with it.  

        19          It's on J. Turner Butler Boulevard as you head 

        20          from the -- essentially the downtown towards 

        21          the beach. 

        22              The southern portion of this property has 

        23          already been purchased by the Water Management 

        24          District south of Pablo Creek on the map.  This 

        25          is, in effect, what we now call Phase I.  We're 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          pursuing lands north of J. Turner Butler also 

         2          owned or controlled by this particular 

         3          individual.

         4              The Governor appointed me to -- to act as 

         5          Chairman of the Florida Forever Advisory 

         6          Council, and -- and a series of things we've 

         7          discovered in going on that. 

         8              Our first report is pending.  I think 

         9          it's -- the draft is on the Secretary's desk, 

        10          and we should approve it within the next few 

        11          weeks.  That series of issues have come up. 

        12              One is public access, two is an 

        13          encouragement by the -- the Legislature and the 

        14          administration to use more creative instruments 

        15          in buying and obtaining lands such as less than 

        16          fee. 

        17              And, third, a shift to a more urban focus.  

        18          What we do find with a shift to an urban focus 

        19          is there is no cheap land in front of a 

        20          bulldozer, and that's what we have in this 

        21          particular parcel.

        22              We think it's going to be a substantial -- 

        23          substantial improvement for our community.  As 

        24          with all the properties I've come -- come 

        25          before you in, we're putting in a substantial 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          local commitment. 

         2              About one-sixth of the price is from the 

         3          City or County, another sixth from the 

         4          Water Management District, and the remaining 

         5          from the CARL program. 

         6              And I think it'd be a positive addition to 

         7          the State lands.

         8              Thank you, Governor.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I don't know 

        10          whether this is the right time or not.

        11              But -- and I guess your newspaper -- no.  

        12          I guess -- yeah, Times Union.  Your newspaper 

        13          probably said it right.  They said this stinks, 

        14          but we ought to do it anyway.

        15              I -- I have a -- I don't mind buying it, 

        16          and I don't mind having a life estate in it.  

        17          And I can live with those two.

        18              But I think that the way the life estate 

        19          ought to work is that we purchase this land, 

        20          and we hold it in joint title with a right of 

        21          survivorship.  And that means that as the 

        22          couple -- the Hodgeses -- the one dies, the 

        23          wife and the State own it; when the other dies, 

        24          then it reverts to the State. 

        25              And that way we don't have to worry about 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          whether somebody sends us a death notice and -- 

         2          30 years from now, and it ends up, you know, 

         3          getting filed in -- in some file cabinet.  

         4          And -- and we don't -- we don't end up with the 

         5          property somehow.

         6              And I -- so I have a real problem with the 

         7          title --

         8              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.  Commissioner, I 

         9          understand. 

        10              First, that was a columnist in the 

        11          newspaper, not the newspaper.  And he does--

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Which columnist?

        13              MR. DELANEY:  -- he doesn't like you, me, 

        14          the Governor, or any of you up there. 

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Which one is it?

        16              MR. DELANEY:  So that's -- that's 

        17          Ron Littlepage.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh. 

        19              MR. DELANEY:  And --

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  He didn't sign it. 

        21              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It looks like it 

        23          was an editorial.  So I didn't see a -- 

        24              MR. DELANEY:  No --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- I didn't see a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          byline here.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Case closed.

         3              MR. DELANEY:  It's -- but that's just more 

         4          anecdotal than anything else. 

         5              But again, the -- 

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  He likes you, Mayor.

         7              MR. DELANEY:  -- the conclusion is -- the 

         8          conclusion is, this is something we've got to 

         9          buy.

        10              I know you've had a concern with making 

        11          sure that upon the -- the -- again, the 

        12          termination of the life estates, that we're 

        13          going to find it. 

        14              First, I will say this:  When this guy 

        15          dies, everybody's going to know it.  It's -- 

        16          it's not going to sneak up on us. 

        17              This particular parcel of land is in the 

        18          heart of a very urbanized area. 

        19              As -- in conjunction with the Aides, the 

        20          Cabinet Aides, we have made some changes to the 

        21          contract that upon -- again, upon the deaths, 

        22          the personal representatives of the estate then 

        23          triggers the process and is required by law to 

        24          turn it over.

        25              But clearly we're going to know.  It is a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          beautiful piece of property that we're going to 

         2          want to get.  And I think the concerns have 

         3          been addressed with the modifications to the 

         4          contract.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I -- I 

         6          just --

         7              MR. DELANEY:  And the last concern, 

         8          Commissioner, is I think if you go into the 

         9          joint title or ownership, as it stands, the 

        10          owner has to pay property taxes.  And I think 

        11          if we do the joint ownership, we -- we have an 

        12          impact on that.  We just as soon them keep 

        13          paying.

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But -- but just 

        15          think about this:  What we're doing is we're 

        16          paying a -- a person about 92 percent of the 

        17          appraised value, we probably'll get the 

        18          property 30 years from now. 

        19              Do you know how much the taxes are each 

        20          year? 

        21              MR. DELANEY:  It's a modest amount because 

        22          it's green belted.  Yeah.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And -- well, any 

        24          amount --

        25              MR. DELANEY:  I don't off the --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- well, what -- 

         2          what -- how much --

         3              MR. DELANEY:  -- top of my head.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- is it? 

         5              MR. DELANEY:  I don't off the top of my 

         6          head.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  It -- I'm sorry.

         8              MR. DELANEY:  That's fine.

         9              MR. STRUHS:  I don't know the figure.  We 

        10          can obviously find it out for you.  But it's --

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, you know --

        12              MR. STRUHS:  -- it's tax --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- thirty years -- 

        14          I mean, he'd never --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  -- it's tax exempt.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- he no longer 

        17          pays taxes.  And he has -- I mean, not only 

        18          does he get 93 percent of the value in cash, he 

        19          gets full use of the property, and ownership of 

        20          the property, but doesn't pay any taxes.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  No.  He will be paying taxes 

        22          as long as he's alive.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Oh, because he 

        24          still owns it.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Okay. 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Plus the use is -- this is 

         3          a pretty unique concept, because -- I think 

         4          this deals more with the -- the -- less with 

         5          the law and more with the emotions of the -- 

         6          just the kind of the intangible aspects of the 

         7          seller, Commissioner, in that this is 

         8          incredibly restrictive -- he doesn't have free 

         9          access.  And you may want to talk about that.

        10              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.  He -- he basically -- 

        11          he can't develop it, can't change it --

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I would hope not.

        13              MR. DELANEY:  -- he can't do anything with 

        14          it.  And --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  He can't ride a horse on 

        16          it.

        17              MR. DELANEY:  -- and, again, what you have 

        18          with any of the land purchases, Commissioner, 

        19          sort of -- a couple of objectives. 

        20              First will be to prevent the development. 

        21              Secondarily is to allow the public's 

        22          access.  We think we accomplished both -- both 

        23          of those -- the second obviously is a little 

        24          later in time. 

        25              And in the end, what we come back to is 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          this, that's what was the condition of him 

         2          selling it.  And we believe then we preserve a 

         3          substantial hunk of this land.  It has a 

         4          great -- it's both water recharge and water -- 

         5          really some water purification qualities in 

         6          terms of the drainage in that basin.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Mayor, I have no 

         8          problem with us purchasing it, or the reasons 

         9          for purchase.  I think those are all wonderful, 

        10          I'm all in favor of it.

        11              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But I am -- I am 

        13          really concerned about this kind of a precedent 

        14          set for purchasing land.  This is a -- this -- 

        15          I mean, everybody that's got a piece of land, 

        16          say I'll take that little deal.

        17              MR. DELANEY:  Well, they don't pass it on 

        18          to their kids.  And, frankly, the State's done 

        19          that for quite some time.  You're doing it in 

        20          the Everglades, that -- that much of the land 

        21          is purchased, and it's remained in agricultural 

        22          use without public access without, in effect -- 

        23          the public has, in effect, a conservation 

        24          easement over that. 

        25              And, again, what you've got is you've got a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          temporary window.  You've got a temporary 

         2          window we can't get to it. 

         3              And I guess I have to report to you this 

         4          way.  You know, I've -- been personally 

         5          involved with this.  This is as good as we 

         6          could get. 

         7              He wants to stay there and live on it.  He 

         8          loves the property.  And -- and he doesn't want 

         9          anybody else in there while he and his wife are 

        10          living there.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, and that's 

        12          why I think it ought to be in joint ownership 

        13          with the State, because we're not going to go 

        14          in there -- we've got the easements there and 

        15          everything else.  And that way we know exactly 

        16          what happens when everybody does.

        17              I look at it like this:  Thirty years ago 

        18          we made this deal, everybody sitting in DEP is 

        19          different.  Everybody in the Mayor's office and 

        20          the -- and the Council is different, everybody 

        21          up here is different.  And somebody drops in 

        22          the -- in the mail, you know, a death 

        23          certificate and saying, you know, in -- and 

        24          they'd sit there and open it, and say, oh, gee, 

        25          somebody died. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              And where did -- why'd they send that to 

         2          us? 

         3              MR. STRUHS:  Commissioner, that -- that's 

         4          a -- that's a legitimate concern, and it's one 

         5          that we shared.  And that's one of the reasons 

         6          we went back and made it structured so that 

         7          they're not sending us a death notice, they're 

         8          actually sending us the title. 

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

        10              MR. STRUHS:  That it's -- it is a 

        11          self-executing option so that upon --

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And --

        13              MR. STRUHS:  -- the death of the -- 

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- and when they 

        15          don't, what happens? 

        16              MR. STRUHS:  Well, how is that different 

        17          than if they don't send the death warrant?  

        18          I mean, the warrant --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's the --

        20              MR. STRUHS:  -- but the --

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- problem with 

        22          both of them.  That -- the problem is --

        23              MR. STRUHS:  -- certificate -- 

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- that when they 

        25          both die, the property reverts to the State, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          without anything happening.

         2              MR. STRUHS:  But -- but we -- we wrote it 

         3          in a way where it's automatically executing.  I 

         4          mean, they will -- it will automatically 

         5          execute. 

         6              The conservation easement is -- the -- the 

         7          conservation easement is on record in 

         8          Duval County so that anybody who wanted to 

         9          touch the land in the future would be cognizant 

        10          of the fact that that existed, and that upon 

        11          the time of death, the title automatically 

        12          transfers to -- to the state of Florida.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Crawford -- 

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Somebody still has 

        15          to send the title in, right?

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Crawford?

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.  

        18          Treasurer Gall-- I just want to correct one 

        19          thing. 

        20              Actually you said we wouldn't all be here.  

        21          But I think you're going to be here at that 

        22          time.  So --

        23              So --

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.  But I -- 

        25          I'll probably be Commissioner --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  You can have --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- of Agriculture 

         3          by then.

         4              That'll be the only thing left.  I can't 

         5          be -- 

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Good luck.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I had to interrupt.  That 

         8          was appropriate.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Did he whisper 

        10          that to you? 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, he did.

        12              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I wasn't going to 

        13          say it.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I wanted the whole world to 

        15          share that.

        16              Yes, General.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I can't -- I 

        18          can't top that, Governor.

        19              Is there any reason, Mayor, why we cannot 

        20          do what the -- what the Commissioner wants?  

        21          I mean, I don't -- I don't see why the -- the 

        22          landowner would not object to the -- the joint 

        23          title.  I mean, he wants the money, he wants to 

        24          be able to stay there --

        25              MR. DELANEY:  You don't know him. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              The -- I believe what we've done, as -- as 

         2          the Secretary's explained, it is 

         3          self-executing.  The transfer happens. 

         4              We're allowed on the property to inspect 

         5          it, to make sure it hasn't been used or abused; 

         6          we've got scientists, et cetera, that are able 

         7          to go in and make sure that the property is 

         8          properly maintained. 

         9              It is right up adjacent to Water Management 

        10          District properties.  We're trying to buy the 

        11          properties north of there also to make a 

        12          contiguous corridor. 

        13              For those of you that are familiar with 

        14          Jacksonville, it -- it basically is a notch in 

        15          the middle of a -- in the northern end of the 

        16          Dee Dot Ranch that's owned by the Davis family. 

        17              I think the concerns that were expressed by 

        18          the Cabinet Aides, we've restructured it in a 

        19          way that it happens automatically.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Mayor, 

        21          what -- you also filed this with the Clerk's 

        22          office so it --

        23              MR. DELANEY:  Yes.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- it will 

        25          be a cloud on a title then so no one could sell 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          the property.

         2              MR. DELANEY:  It is in the deeds, correct.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, what --  

         4          what are in the dee-- so -- is there going to 

         5          be a new deed issued when this transaction 

         6          takes place?

         7              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah. 

         9              What I would like to do is if we -- if we 

        10          want to get to this level of detail, we 

        11          actually have the individual here who 

        12          negotiated it, and could speak to those 

        13          specific issues. 

        14              His name is Mr. Greg Chelius. 

        15              If he wanted to come forward and -- and 

        16          respond. 

        17              One of the things I -- while he's coming up 

        18          here, let me add what I think is an important 

        19          observation. 

        20              And that is, we don't know when these 

        21          individuals will -- will eventually pass away.  

        22          One of the things that we did in structuring it 

        23          this way is, number one, make it 

        24          self-executing. 

        25              But on the other hand, we wanted to make 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          sure that the Board of Trustees had one last 

         2          look at it before they actually accepted the 

         3          title.

         4              The title will be automatically sent to the 

         5          State.  But, again, if it's 30 years from now, 

         6          things may change.  Perhaps a future Cabinet, 

         7          Board of Trustees, would not want to accept the 

         8          title --

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And we get our 

        10          money back? 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  -- and at that point the -- 

        12          the point is, 30 years from now, none of us can 

        13          forecast the future.  I think you always want 

        14          to keep some -- some options open.  And I think 

        15          that's what we've done here.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I'm worried 

        17          that that little option might be -- might be 

        18          construed to be something else down the road.

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor -- 

        20          Governor --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- I'd -- I'd 

        23          just -- I'd like to say, I agree with 

        24          everything that 

        25          Treasurer/Commissioner Gallagher said -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          Agriculture Commissioner Gallagher --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.

         3              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- Chief Financial 

         4          Officer Gallagher.

         5              But -- and I -- I think if -- I think 

         6          the -- the points are -- obviously are very 

         7          well taken.  But I -- it's my understanding 

         8          that we've -- we've probably gone as far as we 

         9          possibly can go with this owner, and there's 

        10          not any other -- you know, anything else we can 

        11          do.  And under the circumstances, it's still 

        12          good.  And we need to do -- make the best of it 

        13          we can. 

        14              And so I'd move the item.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, let me just 

        16          hear this -- what this deal is.

        17              MR. CHELIUS:  If I may address, 

        18          President Gallagher --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I guess I'm 

        20          willing to serve, you know.

        21              MR. CHELIUS:  Actually --

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Compromise.

        23              MR. CHELIUS:  -- actually what -- the 

        24          question here that we're discussing is a very, 

        25          very good one. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              And if I may, I'll just give you a little 

         2          bit of background, because initially when we 

         3          worked on this, a life estate is exactly what 

         4          we wanted.

         5              The landowner is unique.  As the Mayor 

         6          said, his father acquired about eighteen to 

         7          twenty thousand acres in this area back in the 

         8          '50s.  And this is -- this 3,000 acres that the 

         9          Water Management District has now acquired a 

        10          conservation easement on 1200 acres.  This 

        11          1487 acres is the last remaining parcel of 

        12          where he actually lives.

        13              He is eccentric.  He's also a recluse. 

        14              When the Water Management District acquired 

        15          the 1232 acres, they never met the man 

        16          personally.  I have. 

        17              And when I discussed a life estate with 

        18          him, in his opinion, he did not want to be a 

        19          tenant on his own land. 

        20              And I told him -- I said, what we're doing 

        21          here is exactly what a life estate is.  If we 

        22          can buy the fee for a dollar, upon your death, 

        23          it's a life estate. 

        24              He said, I don't care.  You can buy 

        25          99.9 percent of what I own, but I want to 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          retain the fee so that when I live here, I'm 

         2          not a tenant on my own land.

         3              And that was the reason.

         4              I don't believe he would do a joint 

         5          ownership.  And what we did to make it as 

         6          automatic as possible is that upon his death, 

         7          the personal representative of the estate shall 

         8          tender a statutory warranty deed to the State.  

         9          And the receipt of that deed will also have to 

        10          be a return receipt as requested.

        11              Now, you're right, a personal 

        12          representative may not send that.  But I think 

        13          we have to have some faith and trust.  There is 

        14          an annual review of the conservation easement 

        15          by the Water Management District.  There's a 

        16          review of the property. 

        17              The Water Management District has two 

        18          other -- or the adjoining site, the 1234 acres 

        19          that they manage on a regular basis, I think 

        20          the City will want public access. 

        21              So there's a whole host of things that when 

        22          they do pass away, I believe enough people will 

        23          know when the deed's delivered, that someone 

        24          will say, we need to record this, and the State 

        25          will own the property.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  How about -- how 

         2          about in their -- in their wills?  I mean, is 

         3          there anything in there that's saying that this 

         4          property goes to the State, because it's 

         5          already been paid for?

         6              MR. CHELIUS:  Actually in their will right 

         7          now, if the fee -- if the deed was not recorded 

         8          in their will right now, the property would be 

         9          deeded to the Nature Conservancy, according to 

        10          their will.  As it's -- as it is today.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And that's been 

        12          there a while? 

        13              MR. CHELIUS:  Pardon me? 

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's been there 

        15          a while?

        16              MR. CHELIUS:  I believe so, yeah.

        17              That's what their -- their attorney told me 

        18          about three days ago.  Because we kept trying 

        19          as much as we could to button this up as tight 

        20          as possible so that it would be as automatic, 

        21          without actually being a joint tenant with the 

        22          property, because he just won't do that.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Let me ask you 

        24          this:  Is it possible to have a -- a warranty 

        25          deed signed and held in escrow until -- till 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          their death? 

         2              That way we know it's there and it's done? 

         3              MR. CHELIUS:  That's another possibility.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I mean, I -- I -- 

         5          I am very concerned about this kind of a 

         6          precedent. 

         7              MR. CHELIUS:  I -- I agree.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You see, once we 

         9          do it, I'm telling you, if I own prop-- this is 

        10          what I'd do.

        11              MR. CHELIUS:  Yeah. 

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I --

        13              MR. CHELIUS:  We said the same thing to -- 

        14          you know, 25 years from now, I won't be here, 

        15          and --

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Exactly.

        17              MR. CHELIUS:  -- you know, people won't be 

        18          there --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'll be the only 

        20          one here.

        21              MR. CHELIUS:  -- everyone remember.

        22              But we feel with the District owning the 

        23          property to the south, with the property being 

        24          managed, the management plan, that the City 

        25          will review, the State will review, he is a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          substantial individual.  We just felt there was 

         2          enough that even 25, 30 years from now, enough 

         3          people would know, particularly when the deed 

         4          is delivered.

         5              If you'd like, that's something --

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I think we need to 

         7          add --

         8              MR. CHELIUS:  -- we could probably -- 

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I think we need to 

        10          add:  A warranty deed held in escrow so -- and 

        11          a -- a copy of it filed with the -- with the -- 

        12          in the City -- or in the County -- in the 

        13          records so that it's clear that upon his death, 

        14          that warranty deed clicks in. 

        15              And then we don't have to worry about 

        16          somebody -- 

        17              MR. CHELIUS:  Uh-hum.  

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- forgetting to 

        19          send something in, and then some big fight to 

        20          go get that -- that fee simple.

        21              MR. CHELIUS:  Yeah.

        22              MR. DELANEY:  Well, it's automatic.

        23              MR. CHELIUS:  That's another possibility.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well --

        25              MR. CHELIUS:  It is automatic right now.  

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          You just have to rely on the personal 

         2          representative --

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But, you see, the 

         4          other way it'll be automatic, you don't have to 

         5          rely on anybody.

         6              MR. CHELIUS:  Yeah.

         7              MR. DELANEY:  All we have to do -- we're 

         8          going to know when this guy dies.  And the 

         9          District is going to want this land, we want 

        10          the land, we want to get in there.

        11              It is automatic.  I mean, it's automatic.  

        12          If it isn't, you go to Court, and it then is 

        13          automatic.  We have purchased this property. 

        14              And -- in short, this is a good deal.  It's 

        15          also the best deal we could get.  And it's on 

        16          property that needs to be taken out of 

        17          development.

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor -- 

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I believe 

        20          that we need to have a warranty --

        21              MR. DELANEY:  And I'll --

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- deed also --

        23              MR. DELANEY:  -- I'll say this also, 

        24          Commissioner, that -- that what I think the 

        25          Advisory Council that's looking at the Florida 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          For Act (sic) monies is going to recommend that 

         2          more instruments like this get looked at 

         3          because it saves money, and it may allow us to 

         4          purchase land that otherwise would be 

         5          unpurchaseable by the State.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, they --

         7              MR. DELANEY:  As they operate towards the 

         8          State's goal.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- then that 

        10          carries me to even want that warranty deed 

        11          signed even more, because we're setting a 

        12          precedent here that I think that ought to be 

        13          included and put in escrow.  It will save 

        14          anybody from having to do anything.  And --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is that a -- is that a 

        16          viable option, given --

        17              MR. DELANEY:  I don't know.  I think we've, 

        18          in effect, got the same thing. 

        19              I mean, in effect, that's when --

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, that's 

        21          good --

        22              MR. DELANEY:  -- when we get the title, and 

        23          we deliver the check, that's really what --

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Then --

        25              MR. DELANEY:  -- happens -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- tell him --

         2              MR. DELANEY:  -- we've got a binding 

         3          contract.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Tell him that's 

         5          the same thing, and get it signed, and put it 

         6          in escrow, and we're all -- I'm going to be 

         7          happy.

         8              I'm going to make a motion that they do 

         9          that.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I -- I -- I would be 

        11          cautious about adding conditions in this 

        12          particular case, knowing a little bit about 

        13          the -- about the owner.

        14              Just to give everybody a little bit of 

        15          history on this.  This is a -- Mayor Delaney 

        16          and I are close friends. 

        17              And -- and he got very angry at me a -- 

        18          earlier in the spring, because I vetoed a line 

        19          item appropriation to purchase this, and 

        20          suggested that there was a process to go 

        21          through, which the City and the 

        22          Water Management District and the 

        23          Department of Environmental Protection had -- 

        24          did, and now it's -- it's a beautiful property, 

        25          and it is worthy of a CARL designation. 

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                                 November 16, 2000
         1              And so we actually saved a little bit of 

         2          money going through that process.  The State 

         3          I believe was at 25 million --

         4              MR. DELANEY:  Yeah.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- in the line item? 

         6              And so he's my friend again, and I'm going 

         7          to make sure that we're supportive of this --

         8              MR. DELANEY:  We always were.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- and we think it's the 

        10          right thing --

        11              I know we were. 

        12              But I think this is the right thing to do.  

        13          And, you know, when you're buying property, you 

        14          don't -- it's not always setting a precedent 

        15          when you have a willing buyer, but an unus-- a 

        16          willing seller, but an unusual one. 

        17              I mean, this gentleman is --

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You're on 

        19          national TV, Governor.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  He's a fine gentleman.  But 

        21          he's just different. 

        22              And -- and I think every circumstance is a 

        23          little bit different, and I think it's 

        24          appropriate for our team to be able to have 

        25          some flexibility to do different kinds of 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          things to save money and to be able to purchase 

         2          properties otherwise we couldn't have 

         3          purchased.

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

         6              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- if I may. 

         7              I -- I certainly understand the mentality 

         8          of someone who wants to own the land.  I think 

         9          you see that in a lot of the old Florida 

        10          crackers, and that makes sense.

        11              But, Mayor, if I may, I -- in the 

        12          discussion, it was said that in his will, he's 

        13          leaving it to the Nature Conservancy. 

        14              Is there a reason why we're purchasing it 

        15          when it would be -- would have the same 

        16          conservation aspects?  Or can you explain the 

        17          difference? 

        18              MR. CHELIUS:  Well, again, what we're 

        19          acquiring is a conservation easement that's 

        20          99.9 percent of all the rights of the property.  

        21          His will was made out a couple of years ago 

        22          before this transaction even came up.  And in 

        23          the will, had he passed on, he was leaving the 

        24          property to the Nature Conservancy.

        25              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Right.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              MR. CHELIUS:  He may change that.  I -- I 

         2          really don't think that's as much an issue here 

         3          as what we're buying today is 99.9 percent of 

         4          the rights to the property, with a fairly good 

         5          assurance that upon his death, the deed will be 

         6          delivered to the State of Florida, and the 

         7          State will then own 100 percent of the rights 

         8          to the property.

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Well, the -- the issue 

        10          is, and I just wanted to clarify, if he was 

        11          going to leave it to the Nature Conservancy, I 

        12          wasn't really -- if that's what he's going to 

        13          do in his will, I didn't understand why we were 

        14          actually purchasing it.

        15              MR. CHELIUS:  Yeah.

        16              MR. DELANEY:  He's --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Because you've got 

        18          to change that -- both.

        19              MR. DELANEY:  -- changed on that. 

        20              He has before the City Council now -- 

        21          trying to get applications for the permit to 

        22          develop roughly a quarter of this land. 

        23              I think Greg was trying to illustrate a 

        24          point there, that there is -- there are ways 

        25          through the will to turn the property over.  

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          He's interested in the money.

         2              MR. CHELIUS:  Right -- yeah.  Right now 

         3          he's devel-- he would develop the property -- 

         4          had he died -- if he died tomorrow and his wife 

         5          died tomorrow, then, in fact, the property 

         6          would go to the Nature Conservancy.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Or -- or he could change his 

         8          will tomorrow as well.

         9              MR. CHELIUS:  Or he could change his will 

        10          tomorrow, right.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I really -- 

        12          I really feel strongly that we don't -- he 

        13          doesn't need to deed it over, and it would be 

        14          in escrow, and he'd get -- and it would 

        15          automatically come over upon both their deaths.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, you -- you want to 

        17          make a motion so that we can move on?

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And kill it if you 

        19          want.  I made the motion.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Secon--

        22              What was the -- I'm sorry --

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You don't want to 

        24          second it.

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Okay.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, you might want to.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Not from your 

         3          earlier -- not from your earlier concerns.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the escrow of the --

         5              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  No.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- warranty?

         7              No second.

         8              Very good. 

         9              There's a -- any other discussion?

        10              There's a motion and a second on the 

        11          purchase of this property.

        12              All -- everybody that says in favor of it, 

        13          say yes.

        14              THE CABINET:  Yes.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

        16              Treasurer? 

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yes.

        18              MR. DELANEY:  Thank you, Governor.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        20              MR. CHELIUS:  Thank you.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That was an enthusiastic 

        23          yes by Commissioner/Treasurer Gallagher.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, 

        25          our first city for a Capital of a Day was -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          was Jacksonville.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It was.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And that 

         4          was -- that was a wonderful -- 

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Mayor, don't leave yet.  

         6          I think someone --

         7              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- it was a 

         8          wonderful experience, Mayor, when we did the -- 

         9          our first, in the history of the state, going 

        10          outside of Tallahassee for the Capital for a 

        11          Day.  You hosted us wonderfully, and it was an 

        12          excellent -- excellent thing. 

        13              I would hope you invite us back again.  

        14          I think some event is occurring in your city in 

        15          the near future? 

        16              MR. DELANEY:  SuperBowl?

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yeah.  Oh, 

        18          that's right. 

        19              And -- and perhaps, Governor, maybe we 

        20          can -- we can adjourn a Cabinet meeting on the 

        21          50 yard line before the -- not -- not to be 

        22          there for any special reason.  But I think it 

        23          might be just, you know --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's above the gift limit.  

        25          I can't go.  Maybe you can.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I can't.  

         2          It's above my limit, too. 

         3              But if we have a Cabinet meeting, that 

         4          might --

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But somebody'll 

         6          sell you tickets, if you want to buy one, I'm 

         7          sure.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know.  But they cost, 

         9          like, 400 bucks.

        10              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's about 

        11          600 now, Governor.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Six hundred.

        13              Well, we can stay in a cruise ship, too.  

        14          It'll be -- 

        15              MR. DELANEY:  That would be great.  

        16          Although --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Congratulations.

        18              MR. DELANEY:  -- like most everybody here, 

        19          with the exception of Commissioner Gallagher, 

        20          we'll all be out of office by the time the 

        21          SuperBowl's in. 

        22              We may not get the same invitation. 

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm staying till I 

        24          get --

        25              MR. DELANEY:  But you're always welcome --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- that deed.  I'm 

         2          not leaving till the deed comes.

         3              MR. DELANEY:  Governor, you're always 

         4          welcome in Jacksonville.

         5              Thank you.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Our fifth and final item is 

         8          the Mount Royal Village Archaeological site.  

         9          This is an emergency acquisition.  Actually 

        10          it's not an acquisition.  It's simply getting 

        11          your acquiescence to begin the process of 

        12          acquiring the land. 

        13              Under the --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's not -- it's not less 

        15          than fee simple, I hope.

        16              MR. STRUHS:  No.  This -- if it -- if it is 

        17          pursued, and it is executed, it would be a -- 

        18          it would be a fee simple acquisition.

        19              Under the Preservation 2000 program, there 

        20          is money set aside for emergency archeological 

        21          acquisitions.  And this is an acknowledgment, 

        22          if you approve it, by -- by you that the 

        23          Division of Historical Resources and Division 

        24          of State Lands have complied with 

        25          Section 253.027 of the Florida Statutes.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a second.

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I just want --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Wit--

         7              Yes.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor, I just wanted 

         9          to say a couple of things about this piece of 

        10          property. 

        11              We're going -- I hope we're going to move 

        12          forward in this process to acquire it.  But it 

        13          really does have some interesting history.  One 

        14          of the famous Flemish engravers from the 1500s 

        15          actually first began in copying some famous 

        16          paintings by LeMoyne and doing this, the 

        17          engravings of the Timucuan Indians.  It's about 

        18          a 4,000 year old site.

        19              And if you look at your aerials, you can 

        20          actually see a causeway, which is the only one 

        21          of its kind from north of Kissimmee from the 

        22          temple mount all the way out is very strategic.  

        23          You can see on to -- to Hog Island and 

        24          Drayton Island. 

        25              And so I'm looking forward to -- to the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1          opportunity and -- to examine this acquisition.

         2              Also, Bartram, who's probably the foremost 

         3          naturalist in -- in the 19th century that 

         4          published Bartram's Travels, talks about it 

         5          exhaustively in his book. 

         6              And for any of you -- I just thought it was 

         7          cool. 

         8              See?  You can see the -- the temple mount 

         9          and the causeway -- an actual causeway that 

        10          it -- that was going on whenever he was -- he 

        11          was there examining it. 

        12              So I brought some of those engravings 

        13          and -- and -- because this is simply more 

        14          than -- it started as an Indian village, and 

        15          then a mission, and then a plantation.  So it 

        16          has a very colorful and rich history for 

        17          Florida's past.  And I think it's important for 

        18          a CARL acquisition.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

        20              Moved and seconded.

        21              Without objection, it's approved.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Thank you.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, 

        24          Secretary Struhs.

        25              Thank you all very much.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  All right.

         2              (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 

         3          Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)

         4                              *   *   *

         5              (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at 

         6          10:38 a.m.)




















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                 November 16, 2000
         1                    CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER




         5     STATE OF FLORIDA:

         6     COUNTY OF LEON:

         7              I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 

         8     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

         9     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

        10     notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 

        11     pages numbered 1 through 107 are a true and correct 

        12     record of the aforesaid proceedings.

        13              I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

        14     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 

        15     nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 

        16     or financially interested in the foregoing action.

        17              DATED THIS 1ST day of DECEMBER, 2000. 


                             LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
        23                   100 Salem Court
                             Tallahassee, Florida 32301
        24                   850/878-2221

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.