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1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
4 Representing: 5 DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 6 SITING BOARD VOTE ON PAROLE COMMISSION APPOINTMENTS/ 7 CHAIR AND VICE CHAIR STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 8 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 9 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE BOARD OF TRUSTEES, INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 10 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 11 MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION
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13 The above agencies came to be heard before THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles 14 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Wednesday, 15 June 24, 1998, commencing at approximately 9:46 a.m.
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17 Reported by:
18 LAURIE L. GILBERT Registered Professional Reporter 19 Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter 20 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large 21
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT 24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES Governor 4 BOB CRAWFORD 5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN Comptroller 7 SANDRA B. MORTHAM 8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH Attorney General 10 BILL NELSON 11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN Commissioner of Education 13 * 14
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
June 24, 1998 3
1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD: 4 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III, Deputy Secretary) 5 1 Approved 6 6 2 Approved 148 3 Approved 149 7 VOTE ON PAROLE COMMISSION APPOINTMENTS/ 8 CHAIR AND VICE CHAIR
9 Approved 151
10 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION: (Presented by Tom Herndon, 11 Executive Director)
12 1 Approved 153 2 through 8 Approved 155 13 9 Approved 156
14 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE: (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III, 15 Director)
16 1 Approved 157 2 Approved 157 17 3 Approved 158 4 Approved 160 18 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION: 19 (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson, Deputy Commissioner for 20 Planning, Budgeting, and Management)
21 1 Approved 161 2 Approved 161 22 3 Approved 161 4 Approved 162 23 5 Approved 162
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June 24, 1998 4
1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 ITEM ACTION PAGE 3 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE: 4 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs, Executive Director) 5 1 Approved 163 6 2 Approved 163 3 Approved 164 7 4 Approved 164 5 Approved 164 8 BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE 9 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND: 10 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III, Secretary) 11 1 Approved 165 12 Substitute 2 Approved 165 Substitute 3 Approved 165 13 Substitute 4 Approved 166 Substitute 5 Approved 166 14 Substitute 6 Approved 166 Substitute 7 Approved 166 15 Substitute 8 Approved 167 Substitute 9 Approved 167 16 10 Approved 167 11 Approved 168 17 12 Approved 168 13 Approved 168 18 14 Approved 169 15 Approved 169 19 16 Approved 169 17 Approved 169 20 18 Approved 170 19 Approved 170 21 20 Approved 170 21 Approved 174 22 22 Approved 175 Substitute 23 Approved 175 23 24 Approved 176
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June 24, 1998 5
1 I N D E X (Continued) 2 ITEM ACTION PAGE 3 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION: 4 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D., Secretary) 5 1 Approved 177 6 2 A. and B. Approved 177 3 Approved 178 7 4 Approved 178 5 Approved 178 8 6 Approved 179 7 Approved 179 9 8 Approved 179 9 A. and B. Approved 180 10 10 A. and B. Approved 180 11 Approved 180 11 12 A. and B. Approved 181 13 Approved 181 12 14 Approved 181 15 Approved 182 13 16 Approved 182 17 Approved 193 14 18 Approved 194
15 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION: 16 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D., Secretary) 17 1 Approved 195 18 2 Deferred 195 3 Approved 195 19 MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION: 20 (Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D., Executive Director) 21 A Approved 197 22 B Approved 197 Deferred 211 23 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 213 24 * 25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:05 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: We're now going to go to
4 the agenda of the Siting Board. It's
5 10:00 o'clock. We've said that we would start
6 that at 10:00 o'clock.
7 And we have time divided, as I understand,
8 an hour to each side. So let's start on the
9 Siting Board. We'll do the other items after
10 the conclusion of this, which is going to be
11 after lunch for people that want to come back.
12 MR. GREEN: Governor, Item 1 of the
13 Siting Board agenda are minutes of the
14 April 28th, '98, meeting.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, agreed to.
20 MR. GREEN: Item 2 is consideration of a
21 final order recommending that the Siting Board
22 find the Tiger Bay Cogeneration --
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's skip over that, and
24 go to --
25 MR. GREEN: Go to -- go to Item 3?
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 7
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
2 MR. GREEN: Item 3, Dan Stengle will
3 present.
4 MR. STENGLE: Thank you, Governor, members
5 of the Siting Board.
6 My name is Dan Stengle. I'm General
7 Counsel to the Governor, and in this case,
8 acting as staff to the Siting Board.
9 We're here on the matter of the Manatee
10 project from Florida Power & Light's application
11 for a -- a conversion of the coal plant to
12 burning orimulsion.
13 Because of the time limitations that are
14 imposed by the important schedules of the -- of
15 the Siting Board, I won't say anything, except
16 to tell you, you have before you the staff
17 recommendation. Denial of certification is the
18 recommendation, which represents the best
19 objective legal view of the staff in this case.
20 The -- we have allocated, because of the
21 time constraints, 1 hour to both the proponents
22 of the project, and 1 hour to opponents of the
23 project. We will lead off with the parties on
24 each side so that you may hear from the
25 parties.
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1 Then we will follow with the elected
2 officials who are here. And then -- and then
3 follow with comments from the public.
4 We have not imposed a time limitation on
5 individual speakers, except to caution people,
6 there's a strict 1-hour time limit per side, and
7 to try not to repeat -- try not to repeat
8 comments made by others, and to --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think that's
10 going to be very difficult. And maybe unfair.
11 There are a lot of people here that would like
12 to comment. We would like to hear from as many
13 as we can. If you get a few at the front that
14 take all the time, you know --
15 MR. STENGLE: All right. Governor, the
16 parties have promised to be very brief, and we
17 can impose on members of the public a 3-minute
18 time --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I --
20 MR. STENGLE: -- limit.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- I think you ought to
22 see if you can get the members of the public to
23 hold their remarks to 2 or 3 minutes --
24 MR. STENGLE: All right.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- so that we'll have an
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 9
1 opportunity to hear from a lot of them.
2 MR. STENGLE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We
3 will -- we will request that be done.
4 As the Siting Board knows, this has been --
5 this has been the subject of two prior full
6 hearings by the --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
8 MR. STENGLE: -- Siting Board. So we would
9 ask people to hold their comments to a minimum.
10 And we would ask people to hold their comments
11 to 2 or 3 minutes.
12 Thank you, Governor.
13 For the proponents, we first have
14 Peter Cunningham, representing Florida
15 Power & Light.
16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Governor Chiles --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- members of the Cabinet,
19 good morning. My name is Peter Cunningham. I'm
20 with the law firm of Hopping, Green, Sams &
21 Smith here in Tallahassee, representing
22 Florida Power & Light Company.
23 And we understand the arrangements here,
24 and we'll try to stay within those bounds.
25 I'm going to use some of that time for a
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 10
1 presentation, which I hope will last no longer
2 than 20 minutes. I know a number of people have
3 signed up to speak in favor of the project.
4 And so without further adieu, and before I
5 begin my presentation, I'd like to introduce to
6 you Paul Evanson, the President of Florida Power
7 & Light Company.
8 MR. EVANSON: Well, good morning, Governor,
9 members of the Cabinet. I'm Paul Evanson,
10 President of Florida Power & Light.
11 And I'd like to thank you for this
12 opportunity to present and seek your approval on
13 this very important project.
14 We're here for a simple reason, and that is
15 we think this project is good for our customers,
16 and good for the State.
17 Understand that FPL will make no profit on
18 this investment. There's no profit return to
19 us. Using orimulsion at the Manatee plant
20 allows us to generate more electricity, at lower
21 costs, and provides for a cleaner environment
22 and a safer Tampa Bay, and adds fuel diversity
23 to our system in addition.
24 And we believe the evidence that you'll
25 hear today supports our case even more strongly
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1 than what you heard before.
2 In your meeting last September, you raised
3 several questions about commitments that FPL had
4 made as additional conditions for
5 certification. And in January of this year, we
6 reviewed each of these areas in great detail in
7 public hearings before an Administrative Law
8 Judge.
9 And after carefully reviewing more than
10 3,000 pages of testimony from 30 expert
11 witnesses, the judge concluded that the
12 additional information only strengthened his
13 original conclusion that this project should be
14 approved.
15 His strongly worded supplemental order
16 leaves no doubt that he thinks this is a project
17 that makes sense for the area and the State.
18 And I think the evidence and the record speak
19 for themselves, and really present the basis for
20 your decision.
21 This morning I'd just like to briefly share
22 with you my thoughts on both the environmental
23 and the economic aspects of the project.
24 And to start with, the environmental, which
25 has been debated endlessly, and I think
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1 regrettably at times, in somewhat hysterical
2 terms.
3 Fortunately, the project has been
4 thoroughly scrutinized by all the local, State,
5 and Federal agencies that are charged with
6 preserving the environment and protecting the
7 public health. And none of these organizations
8 has recommended against the proposal. None.
9 I think the background is very simple. We
10 burn Number 6 fuel oil at Manatee. With the
11 increasing demand for power, especially in the
12 west coast of Florida, the Manatee plant will
13 likely be operating at greater levels of
14 capacity than it has in the past.
15 And using orimulsion should enable us to
16 operate the plant at 87 percent of capacity,
17 with less pollution than the plant has
18 historically been producing at 30 percent of
19 capacity. So we're getting almost three times
20 the amount of power with less pollution than
21 there is today.
22 Now, some have suggested that we should
23 forget about orimulsion, and just simply convert
24 the plant from oil to gas, because we -- as
25 you know, we recently announced plans to expand
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1 the capacity of that system.
2 Especially in the southwest of Florida. We
3 were basically demolishing some 40-year old
4 steam boilers at Fort Myers, and converting that
5 to the latest technology, gas combined cycle.
6 Unfortunately that doesn't make sense at
7 Manatee, both from an engineering, and from a
8 cost standpoint.
9 The size, remaining life, and boiler
10 configuration at Manatee are significantly
11 different from Fort Myers. And building a gas
12 pipeline, and converting that plant would cost
13 FPL customers millions of dollars.
14 And we can't overlook that at the same
15 level of output, at the same level of output,
16 the use of natural gas would present more
17 nitrogen oxide emissions, more NOx, than burning
18 orimulsion as we've proposed it.
19 So converting to gas is simply not an
20 option at Manatee.
21 Now, we'll turn to the economics of the
22 project. We've projected net fuel savings of
23 nearly 4 billion dollars over a 20-year period.
24 This is our best estimate.
25 But under any reasonable fuel forecasts,
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1 substantial savings to our customers would
2 result. And these are savings that by law are
3 passed on directly to the customer. There's not
4 one penny goes to our shareholders. It goes
5 totally to our customers.
6 This means lower electric bills for half
7 the state of Florida, those residents, many of
8 whom, as you know, are on fixed incomes. It
9 also -- lower rates also mean savings for
10 governmental and educational facilities, and it
11 gives a competitive edge for Florida's
12 businesses and industries.
13 So if we're serious about economic
14 development for the state of Florida, if we're
15 serious about that, we have to keep reducing
16 energy costs, and orimulsion is a major
17 contributor to that.
18 So in closing, let me just say this project
19 has undergone more than three years of intense
20 examination. It's withstood test after test,
21 and endured a set of vigorous procedures
22 designed to ensure that it is in the best
23 interest of all the citizens of the state.
24 And I think it's time to decide the simple
25 question, whether we continue to burn fuel oil
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1 at Manatee, or convert to orimulsion with the
2 benefits that we think are there on the
3 environment, and economically.
4 We think it's time that our 3.6 million
5 customers, and their families, enjoy the
6 benefits of lower energy prices. And we think
7 it's time that all Floridians enjoy the benefits
8 of cleaner air and safer waterways.
9 We respectfully request this Board to
10 approve this project, and to base its decision
11 on the record, and not on some of the rhetoric.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: A brief housekeeping
14 matter.
15 I spoke with Mr. Stengle, and I just wanted
16 to relay that I believe there are several
17 governmental agency people signed up to speak.
18 And it's my understanding that whatever they say
19 isn't going to count against the proponents' or
20 the opponents' time.
21 Is that satisfactory?
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: What is that now?
23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: There are several
24 governmental agency people signed up to speak,
25 I believe. And I'm inquiring --
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Governmental agencies now
2 you're talking --
3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Well, we've got the
4 Captain from the Coast Guard, we've got someone
5 from Manatee County representing the
6 County Commission, and perhaps someone from the
7 Regional Planning Council. I'm not certain of
8 that. I have not seen the list.
9 I'm -- I just, I guess, needed
10 clarification on that point.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, this is new to me.
12 Do you know -- did y'all discuss this in the --
13 Mr. Stengle?
14 MR. STENGLE: Governor, what I said was, we
15 would, as nearly as possible, if they are
16 neither opponents nor proponents, try to respond
17 to questions of the Siting Board, and not count
18 that against either side.
19 If they do come forward to speak on behalf
20 of the project, or against the project, I would,
21 because of our strict time constraints,
22 recommend that you do count that against the
23 particular side.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Members of the Board, it
3 is essential that you, as statewide elected
4 officials, keep a statewide perspective on the
5 costs and benefits of this project.
6 Because they're tied in to state and
7 interstate networks, power plants are inherently
8 facilities of regional and statewide impact.
9 That is one of the principal reasons we have a
10 Power Plant Siting Board composed of statewide
11 elected officials, so that ultimately the
12 broader public interests' considerations will
13 not be overridden by narrow, local perspectives.
14 FPL's orimulsion project is, in many ways,
15 a unique project. First of all, it provides
16 more electricity with a decrease in local air
17 emissions, and with additional reductions in
18 statewide air emissions.
19 We have four charts that illustrate this.
20 You can follow along on the monitors in front of
21 you.
22 And here you see the current permitted
23 sulfur dioxide emissions for the Manatee plant
24 on the top left, 83,300 tons per year.
25 Next, the 19-- the SO2 emissions in 1993
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1 and '94, about 26,600 tons per year.
2 Next, the permit limit proposed for the
3 plant, if the project is approved, 13,600 tons
4 per year.
5 And finally, the average yearly reduction
6 in statewide SO2 emissions, resulting from the
7 Manatee plant running more, and other higher
8 polluting plants running less. Not only are
9 there very large decreases in the local and
10 statewide emissions, but approval of this
11 project will take almost 70,000 tons of
12 sulfur dioxides emissions from the Manatee plant
13 off the books, permanently.
14 The next chart shows the story for
15 nitrogen oxide emissions. Approval of this
16 project will result in permanent NOx emissions
17 being reduced from 22,700 tons per year, to
18 7,318 tons per year. Seventy-three eighteen is
19 the figure specified in your order of remand
20 based on the 1993-94 average.
21 With the new limit, NOx emissions will be
22 permanently capped at this level, taking more
23 than 15,000 tons off the books. Statewide,
24 conversion of the Manatee plant to orimulsion
25 will result in a net decrease of more than
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1 14,000 tons per year.
2 Particulate matter is shown next. With
3 approval of the project, particulate emissions
4 will be capped at 858 tons per year, a reduction
5 from 1993-94 levels, and a reduction in
6 permanent emissions of more than 8,000 tons per
7 year. Statewide PM emissions will also
8 decrease.
9 Finally, the trace emissions, often called
10 air toxics. The 27 tons per year, with
11 orimulsion, reflects a real reduction in
12 mercury, lead, and other toxic air pollutants
13 emitted from the Manatee plant.
14 This project is an air quality regulator's
15 dream come true. As you know, CSX Railroad
16 intervened in the remand proceeding, hoping for
17 denial, or at least delay in order to protect
18 its coal hauling business.
19 CSX -- CSX's air quality experts stated,
20 under oath, and I quote, they are putting a
21 scrubber on a plant that never had a scrubber,
22 they are putting particulate controls on a plant
23 that's had virtually no particulate controls.
24 That's a tremendous benefit to the County.
25 And it is. And even CSX's expert had to
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1 admit that.
2 The project is also unique in that while
3 generating more electricity, it reduces the risk
4 of fuel spills locally in Tampa Bay, and also
5 reduces the risk of fuel spills at every point
6 on the Florida coast where FPL receives oil.
7 The statewide impact is also seen in the
8 economic impacts of the project. Every dollar
9 Florida spends on fuel is a dollar taken out of
10 the State economy. By reducing fuel costs for
11 electricity in Florida, we keep that money
12 circulating in the State economy.
13 Beyond that, additional jobs generated at
14 the Manatee plant, and keeping those dollars in
15 the Florida economy, means up to 2200 additional
16 jobs for each of the 20 years of the project's
17 life.
18 Members of the Board, your decision on this
19 project will determine what fuel is burned at
20 the Manatee plant. A vote to deny certification
21 is a vote for the Manatee plant to keep on
22 burning oil.
23 If you choose oil, there will continue to
24 be a much greater risk of a fuel spill in
25 Tampa Bay, a middle-aged power plant will not be
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1 modernized, and its environmental performance
2 will not be improved.
3 The plant will continue to emit more air
4 pollution, running at only 30 percent of its
5 annual capacity, than it would running at
6 87 percent of its capacity on orimulsion.
7 The plant will continue to be authorized to
8 emit thousands more tons of pollution into the
9 air than with orimulsion. And FPL's customers
10 will pay higher rates for their electricity.
11 FPL has engineered a project which holds
12 harmless the local community in terms of air
13 impacts, spill risks, transportation impacts,
14 water use, and water quality.
15 At the same time, it delivers significant
16 benefits to all residents of the state in terms
17 of reduced air emissions, reduced risk of oil
18 spills, lower electricity costs, and a healthier
19 economy.
20 From the perspective of statewide elected
21 officials, this is a project with virtually no
22 costs, and significant benefits.
23 These fundamental facts are fully supported
24 by the record of this lengthy proceeding and
25 Judge Johnston's comprehensive findings. The
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1 right thing for Florida is to approve this
2 project.
3 I've reviewed the staff draft final order
4 that I believe has been provided to you. And
5 simply put, I think it is legally indefensible.
6 It departs from past practice and precedent of
7 this Siting Board. It also raises serious
8 questions of fundamental fairness and due
9 process.
10 I believe the staff draft is a result of
11 oriented rationalization that makes the remand
12 proceeding nothing more than a wild goose
13 chase.
14 We have circulated an alternative draft
15 order that would grant certification consistent
16 with the recommended order and the supplemental
17 recommended order from Judge Johnston. It is
18 completely defensible, legally and otherwise.
19 The only truly important documents before
20 this Board are the two recommended orders issued
21 by Administrative Law Judge Johnston. Each
22 contains over 250 findings of fact made by the
23 independent judge who heard all of the testimony
24 and saw all of the witnesses. Those are the
25 facts of this case, those are the truth of this
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1 case.
2 It's essential that you understand the
3 facts in making your decision. And while the
4 facts, I think, really speak for themselves, our
5 opponents continue to try to obscure them. That
6 is why I'm going to go through some of the
7 critical facts in some detail.
8 We'll be happy to stop at any time to
9 answer any questions you have regarding any
10 aspect of the project.
11 Nine months ago FPL came before you, and
12 agreed to accept several new conditions for the
13 project. We told you we could, and would, meet
14 those conditions.
15 You sent them back to the Administrative
16 Law Judge for further fact-finding. The facts,
17 as found by Judge Johnston, confirm that FPL can
18 meet those conditions.
19 The order of remand identified five issues
20 for consideration by the judge. They're
21 summarized here. The judge's supplemental
22 recommended order addressed each issue, and
23 makes findings favorable to the project on
24 each.
25 The numbers in brackets you'll see on these
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1 slides refer to the paragraph where
2 Judge Johnston made findings of fact or
3 conclusions of law.
4 The specific questions on the first issue
5 on the feasibility of rail were: Is the use of
6 rail currently feasible? And if so, what are
7 the impacts on Port Tampa and its citizens?
8 As to the first question, Judge Johnston
9 said, yes, rail is feasible. Using existing
10 rail lines, and eliminating all but 30 of the
11 previously proposed 202 truck trips per day.
12 As to the second question, Judge Johnston
13 found the impact on Port Tampa and its citizens
14 will be minimal.
15 Why? Because FPL has developed a
16 rail/barge transportation plan for delivering
17 gypsum, under which the City of Tampa and the
18 community of Port Tampa are bypassed. Allow me
19 to show you how.
20 This slide shows the rail route from the
21 Manatee plant at the bottom right of the screen,
22 to Pendola Point at Port Sutton at the top
23 right.
24 The project transportation plan will
25 require only one round trip train -- one round
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1 trip per day by train.
2 The next slide shows that the area at
3 Pendola Point, where gypsum will be transferred
4 from rail to barge, is currently vacant and is
5 surrounded by other industrial port related land
6 uses.
7 Now, let me show you the barge route from
8 Pendola Point to Port Tampa. Judge Johnston
9 found that the use of barges to transport the
10 gypsum would be entirely appropriate and
11 consistent with current use of, and activities
12 on, those waters.
13 Moving to the second remand issue. We
14 address the achievability of proposed limits on
15 NOx and particulate matter.
16 As to NOx, the remand order asked whether
17 the proposed new limits are scientifically and
18 technically achievable. Those NOx limits set
19 forth in Attachment A to the remand order are a
20 NOx rate of 0.15 pounds per million BTU, 30-day
21 rolling average; a daily NOx cap of 34.6 tons
22 per day; and an annual NOx cap of 7,318 tons per
23 year.
24 Taking the NOx rate first, Judge Johnston
25 found, and I quote: Based on the evidence, it
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1 is found that 0.150 pounds per million BTU,
2 30-day rolling average, is scientifically and
3 technically achievable.
4 I point out that .15 is our very low NOx
5 limit. In fact, it is lower than the project
6 proponents argued for in 1996, it is lower than
7 the NOx limit imposed by this Board for the last
8 three comparable power plants certified, and it
9 is equivalent to the limit recently proposed by
10 the US EPA for very new power plants burning any
11 fuel: Coal, oil, or natural gas.
12 Turning next to the daily cap,
13 Judge Johnston found that 34.6 tons per day is
14 scientifically and technically achievable.
15 As to the annual NOx cap. The judge found
16 that 7,318 tons per year is scientifically and
17 technically achievable. I would recognize that
18 with a NOx emission rate of .15, the plant could
19 be operated at an annual capacity factor of
20 73 percent, below the 87 percent that we intend
21 to run the plant.
22 But I have to ask you to keep in mind that
23 any NOx emission limit is a ceiling, not a
24 floor. If .15 were the limit, FPL would be
25 below it.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 27
1 After you issued the remand order, and
2 based on continued design development and
3 additional reburn experience, as well as vendor
4 guarantees, FPL proposed an even lower NOx limit
5 of 0.1255 pounds per million BTU.
6 While Judge Johnston found the
7 achievability of this rate to be questionable,
8 he nonetheless recommended that it be imposed as
9 a condition of certification.
10 The basis for FPL's confidence about
11 meeting the lower limit is evident in
12 Judge Johnston's findings. He found that
13 orimulsion reburning was successfully
14 demonstrated at a power plant in Illinois last
15 fall. He found that FPL's reburn vendor has
16 guaranteed a NOx rate of .1255. And he found
17 that a large boiler in Italy is achieving NOx
18 rates of 0.11 using heavy oil, and that
19 orimulsion reburning is at least as effective as
20 oil reburning.
21 With a NOx rate of .1255, the plant could
22 be operated at an 87 percent capacity factor,
23 and meet the annual cap of 7,318 tons per year.
24 As to the remand order, the bottom line on
25 NOx emissions is .15 is achievable, 34.6 is
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 28
1 achievable, and FPL can ensure no increase in
2 annual NOx emissions above the 7,318 tons per
3 year figure that is in the remand order.
4 If you choose, you can impose the .15 NOx
5 limit from your remand order. But you have an
6 option to impose a more stringent NOx limit.
7 This Board has not been reluctant to tell
8 applicants, you have to do better. You can do
9 that here. FPL is willing and able to meet it.
10 FPL would not propose this lower limit
11 without complete confidence in its ability to
12 meet it. If you choose to grant this permit
13 with the .1255 limit, it will be FPL's burden to
14 comply. NOx emissions will be monitored
15 continuously. FPL will not burn orimulsion
16 unless it meets the limit you set.
17 And let me emphasize here, if you approve
18 this project, FPL will not ever seek to obtain
19 less stringent NOx limits. I have executed a
20 stipulation on behalf of FPL to that effect,
21 waiving FPL's right to seek any relief from the
22 NOx limit, or from compliance with those limits.
23 The other air issue --
24 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- in the remand order
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 29
1 concerning the achievability of lower
2 particulate matter emission limits, specifically
3 a rate of .02 pounds per billion BTU, and an
4 annual cap of 1202 tons per year.
5 As to the .02 limit, Judge Johnston found
6 it is scientifically and technically
7 achievable. And he also found the 1202 tons per
8 year cap to be scientifically and technically
9 achievable.
10 Based on improved electrostatic
11 precipitator design, FPL proposed even lower
12 particulate emission limits at the time of the
13 remand hearing. The emission limit is reduced
14 to 0.0144. The annual cap is reduced to
15 858 tons per year.
16 The judge recommended that the Board impose
17 these more stringent limits, and FPL accepts
18 these more stringent limits.
19 The remand order also asked whether
20 conversion to orimulsion would result in an
21 increase of small particulates, and if so,
22 whether there would be any increased risk to the
23 public health or the environment.
24 Judge Johnston said no to both questions.
25 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 30
1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: In defining small
2 particulates, the judge looked to EPA's new,
3 somewhat controversial, air quality standards
4 for fine particulates, those particles that are
5 equal to, or less than 2.5 microns in size.
6 The judge found that small particulate
7 emissions, so defined, will decrease as a result
8 of the project.
9 He also found that after conversion to
10 orimulsion, the Manatee plant will comply with
11 these new EPA standards.
12 He also found that particulate emissions
13 after conversion do not present an increased
14 public health or environmental risk. To the
15 contrary, converting to orimulsion will result
16 in reductions of fine particulate matter,
17 compared to the burning of oil.
18 The third remand question was whether there
19 is additional information regarding the impacts
20 of an orimulsion spill on the shallows and
21 nursery areas of Tampa Bay.
22 There was additional information, first on
23 ecological impacts. Judge Johnston found there
24 is five times less risk of ecol-- of ecological
25 damage with orimulsion, compared with Number 6
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 31
1 oil.
2 He also confirmed his original finding that
3 the orimulsion shipping plan results in four
4 times less risk of a spill in Tampa Bay than do
5 the current shipping practices with Number 6
6 oil.
7 Taking the reduced risk of a spill,
8 together with the reduced risk of ecological
9 damage, Judge Johnston found, with orimulsion,
10 there will be a minimum, 20 times less risk to
11 shallows and nursery areas of Tampa Bay, as
12 compared to current risk levels.
13 The bottom line on this is that Tampa Bay
14 will be safer with orimulsion.
15 The judge also found that reducing the risk
16 of adverse ecological impacts will be highly
17 desirable, and consistent with Federal and State
18 policies of pollution prevention and risk
19 reduction.
20 The judge also addressed potential economic
21 impacts of an orimulsion spill. His findings
22 show that damages will be less than a comparable
23 spill of oil. The total cost for third party
24 damages in the event of a large scale spill
25 under adverse conditions would be approximately
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 32
1 50 million dollars, which would be more than
2 adequately covered by 1.25 billion dollars in
3 insurance coverage, which is a condition of
4 certification for the project.
5 The fourth remand question had to do with
6 the funding of the Vessel Traffic and
7 Information System for Tampa Bay. Specifically,
8 will FPL agree to pay for the entire VTIS.
9 Judge Johnston found that, yes, FPL,
10 through its fuel supplier, Bitor America
11 Corporation, will fund the cost of the system at
12 no cost to FPL or its customers. This would be
13 a condition of certification.
14 The final remand question concerning the
15 anticipated financial effect of the new
16 conditions on FPL's customers.
17 There is really no dispute as to the cost
18 of the new conditions, about 373 million dollars
19 over 20 years. But I would note that the bulk
20 of that cost is for the Tampa Bay Environmental
21 Enhancement Trust, which FPL has proposed.
22 Judge Johnston found that this Trust, which
23 would be funded at up to 10 million dollars per
24 year for 20 years, would be a direct benefit to
25 the citizens of the state, essentially a
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 33
1 reallocation of savings, as opposed to a cost.
2 The bottom line on the economic part of
3 this case is that no matter which fuel forecast
4 you use, and taking into account the cost of the
5 new conditions, there will be real savings.
6 Under FPL's base case fuel forecast, the
7 forecast would stay used for all purposes in
8 their strategic planning, 3.8 billion dollars
9 over 20 years.
10 Even under the CSX-T fuel forecast, which
11 the judge found to be very low, and with the
12 plant at only 73 percent capacity factor,
13 1.5 billion dollars over 20 years, this project
14 will result in substantial savings to FPL
15 customers, with resulting benefits to the State
16 and Tampa Bay regional economies.
17 I'd like to point out one additional
18 benefit of this project, which the judge
19 recognized: Improved environmental equity.
20 It's perfectly natural that everyone wants
21 reliable electricity, but no one wants the power
22 plants that generate it located near them. One
23 of the benefits of this project is that it
24 increases environmental equity across the
25 state.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 34
1 Currently FPL's southwest region plants
2 generate only about one-third of the electricity
3 consumed in the region, while the remaining
4 electricity is provided by plants on Florida's
5 east coast.
6 With this project in place, that imbalance
7 will be mitigated somewhat, and the region will
8 generate almost three-quarters of its
9 consumption.
10 In other words, this project will mean that
11 the west coast will generate a fairer percentage
12 of the electricity used by customers on the west
13 coast.
14 In sum, Judge Johnston addressed each of
15 the issues set forth in this Board's order of
16 remand, and found in favor of the project on
17 each. He went on to relate his findings back to
18 the four criteria under the Power Plant
19 Siting Act.
20 After careful review, weeks of hearing, the
21 judge reaffirmed his conclusion that the project
22 meets each of those criteria.
23 He also concluded that the new and
24 additional conditions of certification further
25 buttress and supplement his original recommended
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 35
1 order with respect to each of these four
2 statutory criteria.
3 Briefly reviewing those, the first question
4 on this Siting Act is whether the project
5 complies with the nonprocedural standards of the
6 reviewing agencies. Judge Johnston again
7 concluded that the project does.
8 All of the many agencies that reviewed this
9 project over the past four years have concluded
10 that it meets the standards that they have set
11 to protect public health and welfare.
12 No agency, including Manatee County, has
13 taken a contrary position.
14 The second question under the Act is
15 whether the project will result in environmental
16 or other benefits, compared to current plant
17 operations. Judge Johnston has twice said yes,
18 in each case listing numerous environmental and
19 other benefits.
20 The third question is whether the project
21 minimizes impacts on health in the environment,
22 using reasonable and available needs. The
23 judge's answer: It will, for a host of reasons,
24 which he lists.
25 And the fourth and final question under the
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 36
1 Siting Act is whether the project serves and
2 protects the broad interests of the public. The
3 judge again concluded that it does, for many of
4 the reasons that I have gone over here, and a
5 number of others as well.
6 The project clearly meets all four of the
7 statutory criteria, as set forth in the judge's
8 original order, and his supplemental order.
9 We urge you to see the big picture here, as
10 the Siting Act intends. Your choice is clear,
11 orimulsion; or the status quo, Number 6 oil. A
12 vote for oil is a vote for more pollution, more
13 risk for the bay, and higher electricity costs.
14 I would submit that it's time to let FPL
15 off the permitting treadmill, and to approve
16 this project. We ask you to look at the facts
17 of this case, and to do the right thing for the
18 people of Florida now, and in the future.
19 I thank you.
20 And I -- I would like to reserve, with your
21 permission, 10 minutes or -- or perhaps less, to
22 make any rebuttal comments after the opponents
23 have had their day.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: You understand --
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 37
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- you've used, looks
2 like about 40 minutes of your time, 35 or
3 40 minutes of your time.
4 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: So --
6 MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- I may not wish to --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- use that.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: But I'd like to have the
11 option.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
13 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.
14 MR. STENGLE: I understand that
15 Roger Tucker from the Tampa Bay Regional
16 Planning Council, and Colonel Basel from the
17 U.S. Coast Guard are here as proponents for the
18 project, even though they represent -- even
19 though they represent agencies.
20 Roger Tucker from the Tampa Bay Regional
21 Planning Council. And then I'll -- I'll ask
22 Colonel Basel from the U.S. Coast Guard to come
23 forward.
24 And I -- it is my understanding that they
25 are proponents of the project.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 38
1 And if they are not here, we will --
2 Colonel Basel from the Coast Guard,
3 Governor.
4 CAPTAIN BASEL: I'd like to clarify that
5 the Coast Guard takes no stand on orimulsion.
6 Good morning, Governor. Once again, I
7 appreciate the invitation to come and address
8 you, and your Cabinet, on the shipping safety,
9 spill prevention, and response preparedness for
10 orimulsion, as well as to address the status of
11 the vessel traffic system on Tampa Bay. Also to
12 answer any questions you might have.
13 I'm the commanding officer of the
14 Coast Guard Marine Safety Office in Tampa. As
15 such, I'm responsible for vessel and waterfront
16 facility inspections, ensuring safe movement of
17 vessels, marine casualty investigations, and
18 spill prevention and preparedness for most of
19 the west coast of Florida.
20 As Federal agents, the Coast Guard does not
21 endorse any product or service. Our role is to
22 ensure safety: Safety of passengers; of
23 vessels; of ports; and, of course, of the
24 environment.
25 We do this by enforcing national and
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 39
1 international standards. But more importantly,
2 we do it by establishing partnerships with
3 quality operators and organizations to manage
4 risk, share commitment, and to seek
5 nonregulatory solutions when possible. These
6 guiding principles encourage organizations to go
7 beyond the minimum requirements.
8 The new Tampa Bay Harbor Safety Committee
9 is an excellent example of such a public/private
10 partnership. It evolved from your Vessel
11 Information Service Consortium, represents all
12 the stakeholders on the bay, through varying
13 industry reps from 13 industries, including tank
14 ship operators and environmental groups. And it
15 has moved aggressively since its establishment
16 last year to enhance safety on Tampa Bay.
17 It has collectively done in one year what
18 wasn't possible for nearly the last 20. And
19 that is, implementing many of the
20 recommendations from the vessel incident that
21 dropped the Skyway Bridge in 1980, the
22 three-vessel collision in Tampa Bay in 1993,
23 with heavy pollution along the coast, and many
24 other incidents.
25 Just three weeks ago, Rear Admiral North,
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 40
1 Assistant Commandant for Marine Safety,
2 Environmental Protection at Coast Guard
3 headquarters in Washington, signed a memorandum
4 of agreement with the committee to support the
5 VTIS for Tampa Bay.
6 In fact, the Coast Guard Office of Vessel
7 Traffic Management in Washington is using the
8 Tampa partnership as a model for future VTIS
9 systems around the nation.
10 Also Intertanko, which represents
11 90 percent of the independent tanker operators
12 of the world, has asked to -- for a seat in the
13 membership of the Harbor Safety Committee.
14 Two weeks ago, I rode a 750 foot tank ship
15 from the sea buoy to Port Manatee. I mention
16 this because tonnage-wise at 86,000 dead weight
17 tons; and beam-wise, 140 feet wide, it's larger
18 than those proposed for orimulsion.
19 The pilot used the prototype of the system
20 recommended for Tampa Bay, which is also the
21 system selected by the Coast Guard for our first
22 new system to be installed in New Orleans.
23 The vessel carried nearly 18 million
24 gallons of heavy fuel oil in a single hulled --
25 in a single hulled ship.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 41
1 In other words, there was about 1 inch of
2 steel between the cargo and the water, as
3 opposed to an inch of steel, a 6 foot void
4 filled with heavy steel strength members, and
5 then another inch of steel forming the inner
6 hull of that double hulled -- of a double hulled
7 vessel.
8 The Vessel Traffic System worked extremely
9 well, and the transit was smooth and
10 uneventful. The Harbor Safety Committee expects
11 to have the first phase of this system in
12 operation by late this summer, using FSTED and
13 Coastal Oil Protection Funds for capital
14 acquisition.
15 This funding process appears to be moving
16 along well, but is not yet fully cast in
17 concrete. I've been asked to address it, and
18 the Vessel Traffic System issues, at the
19 St. Petersburg City Council meeting tomorrow
20 night before the final vote is taken.
21 Subsequent phases of communication upgrades
22 and the establishment of a formal manned vessel
23 traffic center will be set up over the next
24 year, and as additional funding sources are
25 secured.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 42
1 As potential future port partners,
2 Bitor America has very proactively sought to
3 establish the safest possible ship design and
4 shipping practices for orimulsion through a lot
5 of meetings with the Coast Guard and other
6 experts.
7 At the last hearing, I described the
8 physical risks of Tampa Bay, traffic patterns,
9 cargos being moved, improving successes of the
10 measures already in place to manage the known
11 risks.
12 I also described key features of both the
13 proposed ships and the shipping safety plan for
14 orimulsion, such as the use of only double hulls
15 or having 10,000 feet of special orimulsion boom
16 immediately available in addition to the
17 existing large boom inventory, among many other
18 measures that will go beyond the existing
19 national and international regulations.
20 As I also mention, these incorporate many
21 of the lessons learned from careful analyses of
22 worldwide incidents.
23 There's also a Coast Guard responsibility
24 to be thoroughly familiar with all products
25 aboard ship in order to ensure that proper and
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1 safe carriage, as well as to be able to respond
2 to any incident.
3 It was for that reason that I participated
4 in the design, and attended, along with several
5 other Coast Guard officers, the open water
6 orimulsion recovery test in Venezuela. I am
7 satisfied with the results of those tests.
8 And I am the person in the hot seat, as the
9 Federal on-scene coordinator, in the event of a
10 spill. My focus is prevention, no matter what
11 the product.
12 But I also maintain simultaneously the
13 strongest possible prevention -- or strongest
14 possible response posture. And that posture is
15 solidly supported by a superb national response
16 system, which has been tremendously upgraded
17 since Valdez.
18 To do so, the Coast Guard reviews and
19 approves every vessel and facility response
20 plan. We also maintain an aggressive program of
21 drills, including at least quarterly unannounced
22 drills.
23 Over the last year, we have drilled
24 Chevron, Marathon, Florida Power Corporation,
25 and others. We ourselves also get drilled
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 44
1 annually. And every third year, it approaches a
2 worst case scenario. This is conducted by the
3 National Strike Force Coordination Center.
4 Citgo, also owned by the Venezuelan
5 government, in 1995 stepped forward to act as a
6 responsible authority for the last major worst
7 case exercise.
8 No current operators have stepped forward
9 to accept my solicitation to be in the hot seat
10 with the Coast Guard and the Florida DEP for the
11 next year's grueling multiday drill.
12 I personally asked Bitor to accept that
13 challenge, if the orimulsion project is
14 approved. They accepted.
15 I believe that's most commendable, and that
16 it will not only fully exercise their response
17 plan, and be timely, but will also provide the
18 opportunity for all the experts, including the
19 National Strike Force, to get together, and all
20 other responders, to acquire knowledge of
21 orimulsion and their response to it.
22 As with every drill, we pursue all lessons
23 learned. I believe building on those lessons
24 learned is key -- is the key component of any
25 drill.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 45
1 For example, this past March, the Marine
2 Safety Office - Tampa led an unprecedented
3 cruise ship, major fire, and evacuation exercise
4 at Port Manatee, with nearly 800 real passengers
5 returning from a real cruise.
6 It involved 29 agencies and
7 300 responders. And I'll say that everybody
8 left much better prepared for any event.
9 This August is also the five-year
10 anniversary of the three vessel collision at the
11 mouth of Tampa Bay. In mid-August, I'll be
12 hosting in St. Petersburg a detailed analysis of
13 that event. We will look at not only the
14 tremendous gains that have been made in
15 prevention and response since that incident, but
16 also what improvements might still be made.
17 I believe these are just a few of the
18 things that the Coast Guard does to make itself
19 the world's premier maritime service.
20 I know you recognize this, and even
21 selected the Coast Guard Marine Safety Office in
22 Jacksonville as the recipient of your own
23 Sterling Quality Award.
24 I believe quality is ingrained in
25 everything that the Coast Guard does. And many
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 46
1 other units are as well deserving. The
2 Commandant of the Coast Guard earlier this year
3 recognized the Marine Safety Office - Tampa with
4 the Coast Guard Meritorious Unit Commendation
5 for our pollution prevention efforts along the
6 west coast of Florida.
7 Along those lines, the Coast Guard, just
8 this past Monday, in conjunction with the
9 American Petroleum Institute, presented our
10 prestigious Admiral William Benkert Award to
11 companies whose environmental record and
12 accomplishments set the pace for the marine
13 industry.
14 In the large facility or large vessel
15 operator categories, two Florida companies were
16 the national first place recipients:
17 Florida Power & Light in the large facility
18 category, and Maritrans in the vessel category.
19 In summary, again, I emphasize that the
20 Coast Guard does not endorse any product. There
21 are no Federal regulations prohibiting the
22 shipment of orimulsion. I do not believe
23 orimulsion presents any greater risks than the
24 heavy oils that are being carried on Tampa Bay
25 today.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 47
1 I believe their shipping safety plan
2 minimizes the risk of a spill, and is a model
3 for other shipping companies.
4 And as for any emergency, the Coast Guard
5 will be Semper Paratus, always ready.
6 Thank you.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
8 We appreciate very much the work of the
9 Coast Guard in -- in helping to defend and
10 protect the environment, as well as the --
11 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- the safety of boaters
13 and everything else.
14 Thank you for your good efforts.
15 CAPTAIN BASEL: Thank you, Governor.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
17 MR. STENGLE: Again, Governor, and
18 the Board, we don't have extensive time to add
19 additional time for speakers who -- who wish to
20 speak off the time clock.
21 If speakers would take note of that, I will
22 add some additional time based on the Colonel's
23 statement that he is not a proponent. But --
24 but this side has -- has approximately
25 20 minutes left, given that.
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1 Paul Evanson has spoken. And Claus Graf.
2 Claus Graf.
3 And then I'll call on Matt Walsh.
4 MR. GRAF: Governor Chiles, members of the
5 Cabinet, good morning.
6 I'm Claus Graf, First Executive
7 Vice President of Petroleos de Venezuela. And I
8 thank you for the opportunity to speak before
9 you on behalf of all my co-workers at
10 Petroleos de Venezuela --
11 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
12 MR. GRAF: -- which, as you know, is the
13 parent company of Bitor, producer and marketer
14 of orimulsion.
15 Let me take some of your time to tell you
16 what our energy and petroleos centers, where
17 they are today.
18 According to Petroleum Intelligence Weekly,
19 we are the second largest integrated oil and gas
20 company in the world. We own the largest oil
21 reserves in the western hemisphere, are third in
22 refining, and fourth in production capacity in
23 the world.
24 Through Citgo, our United States affiliate,
25 we are top gasoline suppliers to the U.S.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 49
1 market. And in a close race with Canada, we are
2 the largest oil supplier to your country.
3 As to our country, we generate 78 percent
4 of Venezuela's export, 57 percent of Venezuela's
5 fiscal revenue, and 26 percent of our gross
6 domestic product.
7 I'm telling you these statistics not to
8 brag, but to ask ourselves the question which
9 then I will try to answer: How did a
10 State-owned company get to leadership positions
11 like these in 20 years?
12 For me, the answer is easy. And it goes
13 around sound and effective management;
14 commitment to innovation and change; good
15 business partners in Venezuela, and all over the
16 world; but overall, hard and honest work and
17 commitment of all of us 45,000 who work in our
18 industry.
19 We are strong protectors of the
20 environment, just like you. That is why we're
21 committed to the stringent shipping safety
22 practices and air pollution controls that are
23 proposed for the Manatee project. We insist in
24 such environmental protection for all orimulsion
25 project.
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 50
1 In this commitment with our products, this
2 pride in our work, and the reliability of our
3 services are absolutely nonnegotiable.
4 Even President Clinton at the signing of
5 the U.S./Venezuela agreement on energy issues on
6 October 13, 1997, remarked, and I quote: For
7 the last 80 years, Venezuela has been a rock of
8 stability staying out of the oil embargo,
9 stepping in to boost production in moments of
10 crisis from World War II, to the Gulf War, end
11 of quote.
12 We are proud of this record, and we are
13 committed to our shareholders, the Venezuelan
14 people, and maintaining our leadership and good
15 name based on healthy and honest commercial
16 aggressiveness, efficient risk management, sound
17 use of technology, and personal and professional
18 development of our work force.
19 We have developed a passion to serve our
20 clients, and for being good business partners.
21 And we would not risk our name with products
22 which could not fulfill these standards.
23 In the specific case of orimulsion, we have
24 shown to the world, for instance, Canada,
25 Denmark, Italy, Japan, et cetera, that we mean
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DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 51
1 what I just said.
2 The letter by Mayor James Manchard of the
3 City of Dalhousie in Canada, where we have
4 burned orimulsion in commercial amounts in their
5 power generation plant since 1994, testifies to
6 this respect.
7 We're, therefore, really surprised that our
8 commitment and faithful partnership with the
9 United States, and specifically with the people
10 of Florida, have been questioned during the
11 permitting process.
12 To close, I respectfully ask you to approve
13 the use of orimulsion as requested here today.
14 And if so, I can assure you that all of us at
15 Petroleos de Venezuela will stand behind each
16 and every other conditions of certification to
17 which we have committed.
18 For us, there just couldn't be any other
19 way.
20 Thank you.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
22 MR. WALSH: Good morning, Governor Chiles;
23 good morning, Cabinet members. My name is
24 Matt Walsh. I'm a resident of Longboat Key, and
25 owner and publisher of the Longboat Observer and
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1 Gulf Coast Review newspapers. I do not envy you
2 today.
3 But before you make your decision this
4 morning, my hope is to persuade you to think
5 about four key concepts: Double standards,
6 innovation, rational balance, and social
7 responsibility.
8 When I read my Sunday newspaper two weeks
9 ago, the editorial concluded by saying: The
10 Governor and Cabinet should not approve
11 orimulsion unless FPL can provide an
12 unconditional guarantee that its use will have
13 no detrimental effect on health or the
14 environment.
15 Now, have we ever demanded an unconditional
16 guarantee on fuel oil Number 6? Indeed, I ask
17 you: Are we holding orimulsion to a higher
18 standard than fuel oil Number 6?
19 You've heard all the highlights about FPL's
20 proposal: Safer shipping than with fuel oil
21 Number 6, less harmful if there is a spill,
22 significantly less pollution than with fuel oil
23 Number 6. And yet all of these facts are not
24 good enough.
25 Orimulsion's opponents urge that orimulsion
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1 be rejected unless there are absolute
2 guarantees. This is a double standard.
3 One standard. There should be one
4 standard.
5 Innovation. This country is the most
6 successful and wealthiest nation on earth
7 because we have the courage to innovate. We are
8 a nation of risk takers. Not wild-eyed,
9 irresponsible risk takers. We have the smartest
10 risk takers and innovators in the world.
11 Now, let's talk a second about the risk of
12 squelching FPL's attempt at innovation. You and
13 I know that the most volatile region in the
14 world is the Middle East. And we know it's
15 expected to become even more volatile in the
16 future. And we also know the Middle East is a
17 primary source of oil. And FPL is the largest
18 user of oil of any utility in the nation.
19 Without innovation, Madam Secretary and
20 gentlemen, we will all be at risk. Millions of
21 Floridians, 6.5 million customers, our state's
22 economy, jobs, livelihoods.
23 Innovation. It's the source of progress.
24 Balance. Madam Secretary and gentlemen,
25 there is no such thing as pure air and pure
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1 water and a pure environment. We do not have
2 all the money it would take for a pure
3 environment.
4 So we are constantly in search of the right
5 balance. What is best for the environment, our
6 economy, and the citizens of Florida.
7 Now, I'm sure you've heard this before. As
8 the electric utility industry deregulates, the
9 most inefficient companies will go out of
10 business. People will lose jobs.
11 I sat at breakfast recently with some FPL
12 employees, and I can tell you, you can see the
13 concern in their faces. They know their
14 family's paychecks are at stake.
15 If FPL cannot offer its customers
16 electricity at the lowest price, Florida will
17 lose hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs at
18 FPL. And there will be a ripple effect:
19 Restaurants FPL employees patronize, retailers
20 from whom they buy clothes, insurance agents,
21 car dealers, and on and on.
22 Or let's look at it another way. Turn the
23 prospects around. If FPL saves its customers
24 3 billion dollars, or even 700 million, that
25 money will be plowed back into our economy. It
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1 will create new jobs, new opportunities.
2 And every dollar we save, we can deploy to
3 become more efficient, more innovative, and more
4 concerned about the environment.
5 So balance. There are no absolutes, only
6 rational trade-offs.
7 Finally, social responsibility. Everyone
8 loves to hate the greedy electric utility. All
9 it cares about is money, money, money. But
10 here's where that view is counter-intuitive.
11 Think about this: FPL's 10,000 employees
12 are Floridians. Its Chairman is a Floridian.
13 They send their children to Florida schools,
14 they fish in Florida lakes and rivers, they
15 drink Florida water, they eat Florida food.
16 Why would they want to destroy Florida's
17 environment? Money? You know how the system
18 works. If a business angers its customers, if
19 it mistreats its customers, it goes out of
20 business. There are no profits, there's no
21 money.
22 So enlightened self-interest. It is in
23 FPL's self-interest to be socially and
24 environmentally responsible, to do its best to
25 provide the most reliable electricity at the
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1 lowest price, at the least harm to the
2 environment.
3 So I urge you to think about those four key
4 concepts: Double standards, no, one standard;
5 innovation, let's have the courage to innovate;
6 balance, rational trade-offs; and social
7 responsibility. Enlightened self-interest works
8 for everyone.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. STENGLE: Once again, we simply must
11 encourage speakers to keep their -- keep their
12 remarks very, very brief. We will not have time
13 to get to everyone. We have 17 speakers left on
14 the proponents' side. There is no way to
15 accommodate that.
16 Kelvin and Chelsey Lindbloom.
17 MR. KELVIN LINDBLOOM: Mr. Governor, I --
18 for several weeks now I've tried to figure out
19 exactly what to say to such an august group that
20 has not been said, or that would not be
21 repeating. And I only came up with one thing
22 that, as I come up here, that I am sure that I
23 know. That would be to extend to you from my
24 people -- my family and friends and neighbors, a
25 most sincere and heartfelt thank you for what
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1 has been a lifetime of public service, and for a
2 job well done.
3 As far as this issue is, it has been most
4 divisive, and it has had an effect on my small
5 town that would be -- I would be unable to
6 describe.
7 And I will have to borrow some words from a
8 more divisive time than this, and say that the
9 cries of environment, environment, environment
10 commonly come from those who I find it difficult
11 to believe to be sincere.
12 And everything else I think needs to be
13 said has been said. And I think this is a good
14 project.
15 And now by your leave, Mr. Governor, I'd
16 like to introduce the next speaker:
17 One of two students who graduated from the
18 local public elementary school system of
19 fifth grade, with a cumulative 4.0 average, and
20 was voted most outstanding in her class, I'm
21 proud and most pleased to present to you my
22 daughter, Miss Chelsey K. Lindbloom.
23 MS. CHELSEY K. LINDBLOOM: Governor Chiles
24 and Cabinet, my name is Chelsey Lindbloom, and I
25 am eleven years ago. I am here to give my
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1 opinion on orimulsion.
2 I used to feel very strongly that
3 orimulsion should not be used at Florida
4 Power & Light. I felt this way because I knew
5 only the bad facts, such as orimulsion mutates
6 fish, pollutes air, and will cause more traffic
7 in Parrish.
8 After talking with my dad and reading the
9 newspaper, my opinion changed. I learned that
10 the only way that orimulsion can mutate fish is
11 to spill, and there is a very little chance of
12 that happening.
13 I also learned that Number 6 fuel pollutes
14 more than orimulsion. I know that orimulsion
15 will bring traffic, but only a little, and only
16 every now and then.
17 Orimulsion will be transferred by boat all
18 of the time, and then taken from the harbor to
19 FPL by 16-inch pipe.
20 I learned that orimulsion will burn much
21 cleaner than Number 6 fuel. It also will not
22 cling to birds' feathers if they happen to get
23 in the orimulsion.
24 Also, I found out that orimulsion stays
25 suspended in one spot in the water, and will not
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1 wash to shore easily.
2 Again, there is a very small chance that
3 orimulsion will spill, approximately four times
4 as to the chance of Number 6 fuel.
5 So, as you can see, I feel very strongly
6 now that Florida Power & Light should be
7 converted to orimulsion, and that Number 6 fuel
8 should not be used any longer.
9 Thank you.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you. Thank you
11 very much.
12 MR. STENGLE: Kay Cobb. Kay Cobb.
13 And then I'll call on Carl Black.
14 And -- and, Governor, even giving the
15 proponents an additional -- an additional few
16 minutes for their closing, that is all the
17 speakers we will have time for.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
19 MS. COBB: Governor Chiles, Cabinet
20 members, good morning.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
22 MS. COBB: My name is Kay Cobb. First I
23 would like to thank you, Governor Chiles, for
24 your support for the national initiative against
25 domestic violence, which you kicked off last
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1 week. I'm a guardian ad litem at the
2 Twelfth Circuit Court. This is important.
3 Now, the reason why I'm here today.
4 I'd like to speak with you and your Cabinet
5 concerning the use of orimulsion in the Parrish
6 plant.
7 I speak not as a representative of
8 anybody. I'm a private citizen. I'm not a
9 scientist, but I have followed this controversy
10 from the inception. I've read the reports and
11 the scientific studies, I'm familiar with the
12 favorable Coast Guard position.
13 I've also read the orimulsion literature,
14 and attended the hearing.
15 I didn't prepare a whole list of statistics
16 and scientific facts for you today. Those were
17 all clearly presented in the report you have
18 already read, and have, or certainly will be
19 brought up by other folks who are here today.
20 Obviously I'm a senior citizen. I live in
21 an enclave in unincorporated Manatee County.
22 Despite popular conception, seniors don't
23 just hang out waiting for early bird specials.
24 We are certainly volunteers. We work for Meals
25 on Wheels, for hospice, in the hospitals, as
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1 guardian ad litem.
2 Wherever you need a volunteer, you're
3 likely to find seniors. We are out and about in
4 the community.
5 We speak to a great many people
6 one-on-one. We have not found in our
7 discussions with these people the hysteria, the
8 fear which is so prevalent in the Op-Ed pages of
9 our local newspapers.
10 I am very comfortable with -- health-wise
11 and otherwise, with the use of orimulsion in the
12 Parrish plant. So are a great number of other
13 people that I have spoken with. They hold the
14 same view. No, they're not the picketers; no,
15 they're not the letter writers. They are
16 informed and interested citizens. They're just
17 not activists. But they care.
18 I'm reminded of a story my father used to
19 tell about the electrification, the rural
20 electrification of the midwest.
21 People were convinced that these power
22 lines were going to stop the cows from giving
23 milk. These power lines were going to sterilize
24 male animals and men. Well, of course, none of
25 these things happened. Some people are simply
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1 antithesis to change. We must change.
2 Now, all I want to ask of you is when you
3 consider this, put aside the rhetorics, put
4 aside the scare tactics. Consider this project
5 on its positive merits. What I really ask of
6 you, all of you, is to vote yes for orimulsion
7 for the Parrish plant.
8 Thank you.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, ma'am.
10 MR. BLACK: Good morning, Governor Chiles
11 and Cabinet. I'm Carl Black. I'm President and
12 Business Manager of International Brotherhood of
13 Electrical Workers, Local Union 820 in Sarasota
14 and Bradenton.
15 I'm here today to represent the interests
16 of over 500 IBEW members and their families on
17 the west coast of Florida.
18 It is our union members who operate and
19 maintain the current facility at FPL's Manatee
20 plant. Of course we bring a bias to this issue,
21 and these deliberations in particular.
22 We want FPL to succeed in the so-called
23 deregulated environment that's coming sooner,
24 rather than later.
25 We see the signs of competition all around
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1 the landscape. California, New York, Illinois,
2 Wisconsin, they're all nearly there. And
3 Georgia is now preparing to study cost benefits,
4 service reliability, stranded costs, residential
5 versus commercial customer rates, and the list
6 goes on.
7 So you can see our interest in the future
8 of FPL. This is about our jobs. This is about
9 new jobs and the economic survival of our
10 families, as well as the economic impact on our
11 state.
12 Our union members live in and around the
13 Manatee plant. We breathe the air; we fish and
14 swim in the rivers, Tampa Bay, and the Gulf of
15 Mexico. We love the environment as much as the
16 other guy.
17 We are the volunteers in churches, civic
18 groups, schools, youth activities, Habitat for
19 Humanity, the United Way, and numerous
20 community-based organizations.
21 We're not blind to the needs of FPL's
22 desire to be the preferred provider of energy in
23 this area. One element of their plan to succeed
24 in that goal is a so-called fuel mix. We happen
25 to believe that it's not wise to put all your
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1 eggs in one basket.
2 With the addition of orimulsion to the
3 natural gas, fuel oil, and nuclear fuel sources
4 it currently utilizes, it makes perfect sense
5 that FPL needs this innovative fuel for the
6 future.
7 As union members, we take great exception,
8 not only to the shameless innuendo that FPL is
9 out to destroy the air and water quality in our
10 area, but also to the withering attacks by
11 opponents in the media, attacks that are not
12 based on scientific evidence, but rather the
13 feeding frenzy mentality.
14 Close examination of FPL and its employees'
15 environmental record will indicate a tradition
16 of special concern for numerous environmental
17 issues.
18 To name just a few: The turtle watch at
19 the St. Lucie nuclear plant; the Barber Swamp
20 and Nature Preserve at the Martin plant on the
21 shores of Lake Okeechobee; and the Parrish Lake
22 fishing facility of, at all places, Manatee
23 plant in Parrish. This fishing facility also
24 provides -- or happens to be one of the major
25 sources of income for the United Way in
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1 Manatee County.
2 This hardly seems like a company bent on
3 destroying the environment.
4 We believe that the substantial net savings
5 of the conversion to orimulsion at the Manatee
6 plant will have a beneficial effect, not only on
7 the local customers, but statewide, a long-term
8 savings totaling hundreds of millions of dollars
9 for all our customers.
10 We believe that the Trust Fund for
11 Tampa Bay is an often overlooked benefit of this
12 project. Who could possibly be against
13 enhancing Tampa Bay?
14 The VTIS will reduce the risk of a large
15 scale spill to be four times less than the
16 current risk of a Number 6 fuel oil spill.
17 We believe that the use of the double
18 hulled vessels will further reduce the risk of
19 spill, and consequently, damage to the shallow
20 water and nursery areas.
21 The use of state of the art NOx emission
22 control technology, and the upgrading of the
23 electrostatic precipitators will further
24 minimize the adverse effects on our health and
25 our environment.
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1 The revised transportation plan, given the
2 new rail car and loading techniques, which was
3 not available in 1995, should not have any
4 effect on local communities.
5 The IBEW members that I represent here
6 today do not believe there is any scientific
7 reason not to approve this conversion project
8 and move forward.
9 Frankly, we feel this is the most studied
10 project of its kind. We also feel that over the
11 months -- over the course of months of
12 testimony, Florida Power & Light has answered
13 all the questions to the satisfaction of the
14 Administrative Law Judge.
15 Therefore, I urge you to look past the fear
16 tactics, the nay sayers, the doomsdayers. Look
17 at the facts and the evidence presented, most of
18 which is unrefuted. Look at FPL's record in
19 support of the environment.
20 Look at Judge Johnston's recommended order
21 to approve this project, and then do the right
22 thing by recommending the approval of this
23 conversion project.
24 Thank you.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
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1 MR. STENGLE: We're going to have to move
2 now to the opponents of the project, reserving
3 5 minutes, if necessary, for rebuttal to the
4 proponents. And I will add the same time to the
5 opponent's time.
6 The first speaker will be representing
7 ManaSota-88, one of the parties, Tom Reese.
8 MR. REESE: Governor Chiles, members of the
9 Cabinet, I'm Tom Reese. I'm representing
10 ManaSota-88 and Manatee County Save Our Bays.
11 We've been involved in this for over
12 four years now, and we recommend that you vote
13 denial, and we recommend that you do that by
14 means of the staff report that came out two days
15 ago, the amended draft staff report.
16 While we don't agree with everything in
17 this, we do believe it is an objective, balanced
18 review of the project and the status of the
19 record at this time.
20 We believe that orimulsion should be denied
21 on the principle of pollution prevention.
22 Pollution prevention is a policy both on the
23 State and Federal level that you do not generate
24 pollution and try to deal with the effects
25 through technology scrubbers and so forth, that
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1 you try not to generate it in the first place.
2 In this situation, that means burning a
3 clean fuel. Orimulsion is not a clean fuel.
4 Orimulsion is 2.9 percent sulfur. It is a dirty
5 fuel.
6 I think you would -- if you had the same
7 proposal here today to burn coal that was
8 2.9 percent sulfur, we'd have the same
9 position. You should not be burning high sulfur
10 fuels. And this is a high sulfur fuel. And it
11 also has the problem that it's emulsified.
12 Now, after being involved in this for
13 four years, and been through two hearings that
14 lasted over three weeks, we still have a record
15 that hasn't answered many of the important
16 questions.
17 And based on the record that's before you,
18 it's our opinion that you cannot make a ruling
19 of approval at this time.
20 There are too many unanswered questions.
21 We don't know what the current emissions
22 actually are. And by current emissions, that's
23 different than the way it was calculated by FP&L
24 for 1993 and '94.
25 Actually what's gone on since in the
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1 continuous emission monitors show that you've
2 been under 6,000 tons of NOx emissions.
3 Also we don't know what the emission rates
4 for NOx are going to be, we don't know whether
5 the annual cap can be met with what operating
6 capacity.
7 Without those figures, you don't know what
8 the economics are, you don't know what the
9 economic benefit would be, you don't know what
10 the effect would be on other plants.
11 Also we disagree with much of the detail
12 that Mr. Cunningham talked about about the SO2
13 credits. Those SO2 reductions are going to
14 occur because of the Clean Air Act Amendments,
15 and we don't know exactly what the effect of all
16 that's going to be.
17 The bottom line is, there aren't sufficient
18 findings, after two hearings, to vote approval.
19 So we recommend that you vote denial.
20 I would also take issue with some of the
21 comments by FP&L concerning natural gas. The
22 record demonstrates that natural gas has lower
23 NOx emissions, lower SO2 emissions, and lower
24 CO2 emissions, CO2 being the global warming gas.
25 I'll keep my -- I'll end my comments at
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1 this point. I'd just like to note that there is
2 a lobby full of people who got on a bus this
3 morning at 4:00 o'clock.
4 They didn't get here in time to get seats,
5 but they want you to know that they took the
6 effort to get on a bus at 4:00 o'clock this
7 morning and rode all the way up here. And they
8 would like you to know that they are out in the
9 foyer, and they are opposed to this project.
10 I was going to suggest that they enter the
11 room, just to make their presence known. But I
12 was told that that'd probably violate the fire
13 code.
14 Thank you.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
16 MR. STENGLE: Our next speaker is -- is
17 Larry Curtin, representing CSX.
18 MR. CURTIN: Good morning still, Governor
19 and members of the Siting Board. My name is
20 Larry Curtin. I'm with the law firm of
21 Holland & Knight. Along with William Hollimon
22 of the Ausley McMullen firm, we represented CSX
23 at the remand hearing.
24 Basically I think where we are is that we
25 don't think that all the questions about the
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1 project have been answered, notwithstanding the
2 fact that the Administrative Law Judge did come
3 to the conclusion, erroneous in our judgment,
4 that the project be approved.
5 It was originally proposed and touted on
6 the basis of very significant economic benefits,
7 some 6 billion dollars proposed in the original
8 Public Service Commission hearing, reduced to
9 3.8 or so billion at the first certification
10 hearing, and then reduced further to 717 million
11 at the remand hearing, to be further reduced if
12 the capacity factor of 87 percent is not
13 sustainable.
14 We don't think that those are the kind of
15 benefits that justify the use of an experimental
16 fuel that does have a lot of environmental
17 issues.
18 The other justification that we've heard is
19 environmental benefits on a statewide basis. We
20 believe the Administrative Law Judge basically
21 said that those benefits are not significant
22 enough to justify. He questioned the method of
23 calculation. Also questioned the fact that they
24 were not guaranteed.
25 Once again, if the capacity factor is
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1 reduced from 87 percent that was originally
2 proposed, to 73, that will reduce those benefits
3 even further. The NOx emissions is one of the
4 most serious issues that we have in front of us.
5 Florida Power & Light came to you in
6 September I believe of last year, proposed a
7 .15 limit, 87 percent capacity, and a
8 seventy-three eighteen ton per year cap. Those
9 numbers do not add up.
10 They have acknowledged that, and the
11 hearing officer has acknowledged it, the
12 Administrative Law Judge. He found that the
13 .15 limit is scientifically and technically
14 achievable in the abstract. But as applied to
15 this plant, it has not been demonstrated.
16 After the hearing was over, and basically
17 contradicting testimony that was provided at the
18 hearing, FP&L proposed a .1255 standard.
19 The Administrative Law Judge found that
20 that was an aggressive standard, that it was
21 questionable, that it could be met. There is
22 not a record foundation in our view for that.
23 FP&L indicated in their presentation that
24 there was data from an Italian plant that
25 indicated .11 could be met. We have never seen
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1 that data, was not presented at the hearing.
2 On the issue of spill containment, one of
3 the other significant issues of this project,
4 the Administrative Law Judge found that the
5 capability to contain and clean up a real life
6 spill has not been demonstrated.
7 They have demonstrated that if they
8 predeploy the cleanup equipment, spill the
9 material in a gentle manner inside that
10 predeployed equipment, that they can recover
11 it.
12 There are issues about the current
13 utilization of the plant, whether or not the
14 environmental benefits and the emission
15 reductions that they claim have been properly
16 calculated based upon the actual way that the
17 plant is operating today. We believe it has not
18 been done that way, and we think that's a
19 serious question.
20 FP&L has suggested that you have a
21 responsibility, and we agree with that, to look
22 at these facilities and look at these plants on
23 a statewide basis. You do not have to approve
24 the facility.
25 You have discretion. You have the
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1 discretion to require that all these questions
2 be answered in full prior to approving this
3 experimental fuel. We believe that these
4 questions have not been answered.
5 The staff recommendation that has been
6 prepared by Mr. Stengle and his people, we
7 believe is a thorough -- thorough job. It is a
8 good job. We do believe it is legally
9 sustainable. We think that it will be sustained
10 if it's adopted. And we believe that it's
11 not -- it's basically geared toward the fact
12 that FP&L did not meet their burden of proof at
13 the remand hearing.
14 In short, based upon all this, we do not
15 believe that Florida should be a proving ground
16 for this fuel in the United States, and we would
17 urge that you enter an order of denial, adopting
18 the staff recommendation.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. STENGLE: The next -- the last party to
21 speak will be Dan Kumarich, representing the
22 Manatee County Citizens Against Pollution.
23 MR. KUMARICH: Good morning, Governor,
24 members of the Siting Board. My name is
25 Dan Kumarich, and I am President of
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1 Manatee County Citizens Against Pollution,
2 referred to as MCCAP.
3 Last week at a meeting with the
4 Cabinet Aides, MCCAP submitted a report
5 detailing a number of issues that from our
6 perspective still remain unresolved subsequent
7 to publication of this supplemental recommended
8 order.
9 And again, I want to thank all the
10 members -- all the Cabinet Aides and staff.
11 They have always been very attentive and
12 cooperative during this entire proceedings.
13 We first saw the draft final order issued
14 by staff the day before making our submission.
15 And we were very pleased to note that it
16 addressed many of our continuing concerns.
17 The staff report provided an extensive and
18 objective evaluation of the SRO, the exceptions
19 filed thereto by the involved parties, as well
20 as other scientific data.
21 We find it gratifying that after review of
22 all available information, the staff has
23 independently recommended that this project be
24 denied.
25 MCCAP was organized in September 1997,
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1 primarily because we were apprised of
2 considerable new information which made
3 questionable, and in some cases negated, many of
4 the findings of fact submitted in the 1996
5 remand order -- recommended order.
6 MCCAP, as a party to this case, sponsored
7 two witnesses from Great Britain, and we used a
8 third as a consultant, all of whom we feel
9 contributed substantial scientific and technical
10 information during the remand hearing.
11 We are a volunteer organization, and to
12 actively participate in the remand hearing
13 required considerable commitment from our
14 members of both time and financial support.
15 Therefore, our members are most hopeful
16 that this issue will be -- will reach finality
17 today, and that you will again vote to deny this
18 application.
19 Thank you very much.
20 MR. STENGLE: We have one other
21 representative of this party. But
22 Senator Harris has a plane to catch, and they
23 have agreed to switch on the order.
24 So Senator Katherine Harris is next.
25 SENATOR HARRIS: Good morning, Governor,
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1 and members of the Cabinet. I'm
2 Katherine Harris. I represent the 24th District
3 of the Florida Senate.
4 I know you'll hear from many experts and
5 citizens today, but I'm here as a Senator
6 representing a portion of the west coast of
7 southwest Florida.
8 And I'm here to voice my opinion in
9 opposition to the proposal before you that would
10 allow the burning of orimulsion in the Parrish
11 power plant.
12 I've studied this orimulsion proposal
13 enough to know that this plan will increase the
14 level of nitrous oxide emissions, which will be
15 harmful to our air quality.
16 Furthermore, Mote Marine Laboratories of
17 Sarasota stated it would be impossible to
18 prevent an orimulsion spill, and that when there
19 was one, it would be difficult to contain and to
20 clean up.
21 This issue comes down to whether or not
22 potential savings for electrical cus-- for
23 electric customers is worth the risk of an
24 orimulsion spill in the shallow grass beds of
25 Tampa Bay, and I say it is not.
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1 As a fourth generation Floridian, and as a
2 resident of Sarasota, I know and appreciate the
3 beauty of our pristine beaches in the Gulf.
4 And as the Senate Chairman of Commerce and
5 Economic Opportunities, I've successfully fought
6 for business and economic development issues for
7 our state, yet I believe it would be a tragedy
8 to put our fragile ecosystems and business --
9 and beaches in harm's way for a fuel that is
10 dirty, experimental, and never used anywhere in
11 the United States before.
12 The health and safety of our citizens is
13 more important to me than the potential, not a
14 guarantee, of a small monthly savings on an
15 electric bill.
16 This proposal does not meet the broad
17 interests of the public, and I ask that you
18 reject it. We cannot afford the risk to the
19 state that orimulsion will bring.
20 Thank you for your time.
21 MR. STENGLE: Next will be Dan Kumarich,
22 also representing MCCAP.
23 Clarence Troxell. I'm sorry.
24 MR. TROXELL: My name is Clarence Troxell.
25 I live at River Wilderness Country Club in
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1 Parrish.
2 I have a Bachelor of Engineering degree at
3 Yale University, and a Master of Science from
4 Stevens Institute of Technology. Courses of
5 study included economics of engineering and
6 statistics.
7 I had a career of 40 years with public
8 service, electric and gas companies within the
9 top ten of the country.
10 I am co-author of the book with
11 Dan Kumarich, the blue book. All the Aides got
12 it last week. I hope you've had an opportunity
13 to see it and read it.
14 It includes a section on savings. And
15 there is no question about it, the savings
16 proposed by Florida Power & Light are
17 exaggerated.
18 A year ago this week, June '97, at my own
19 expense, I went to Europe to track down some of
20 the things that were being said and happened
21 over there. We weren't getting that information
22 here.
23 I met with two environmental groups. I
24 also talked to the environmental agency, which
25 is the equivalent of our United States EPA.
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1 I also talked with Financial Times, and
2 they're an outstanding organization in London.
3 And they have a wealth of information. I would
4 like to be able to give you the information that
5 I received, but unfortunately time does not
6 permit.
7 It also led me to a contact with Denmark,
8 and I spoke to the plant manager where they burn
9 orimulsion in Denmark. I don't have time to go
10 into that, but I learned a lot there.
11 All I want to say at this time is, please
12 vote no.
13 The savings aren't here. And I would like
14 to have somebody from the staff -- from the
15 Siting Board here say what he did in -- on
16 April 23rd, 1996. That statement was: I'm not
17 about to roll the dice on this one.
18 Thank you very much.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
20 MR. STENGLE: Thank you, Mr. Troxell.
21 Next is Senator Crist.
22 SENATOR CRIST: Good morning, Governor, and
23 Cabinet, ladies and gentlemen. My name is
24 Charlie Crist. I'm a State Senator from the
25 Tampa Bay area. My home is in St. Petersburg.
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1 I'm just here to encourage you to stop
2 orimulsion today, and encourage you to do what
3 I believe would be the right thing to do, and
4 that is to vote no.
5 I believe that orimulsion would be too
6 risky. I believe that we don't know enough
7 about it to go ahead and use Florida, as so many
8 times has been described, a guinea pig for this
9 product.
10 No other state in the country uses it, and
11 I don't know why Florida, beautiful Florida,
12 should be the first one to do so.
13 A spill obviously would be very devastating
14 and dangerous to the Tampa Bay area.
15 And even more so than a regular oil spill,
16 which is bad enough as it is, but regular oil
17 will float to the surface. And at least you
18 could surround it with a boom and try to contain
19 it.
20 The distinction between regular oil and
21 orimulsion is that orimulsion -- I guess the
22 word is emulsifies and goes down into about the
23 top 10 feet of the water. And trying to extract
24 it would, in essence, be like trying to take
25 chocolate out of chocolate milk. It'd be
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1 incredibly difficult.
2 Manatee, turtles, children might have to
3 swim through it before it could get cleaned up.
4 The only test that's been done on it was done in
5 calm waters and ideal conditions. The waters
6 are not always calm in Tampa Bay.
7 If I could ask the assistance of
8 Mayor David Fischer with a chart here.
9 Members of the Cabinet and Governor, this
10 is Florida, as you know. This is beautiful
11 Florida.
12 It's not a basic civics test.
13 But what I want to show you is where
14 Florida Power & Light proposes to bring this
15 stuff.
16 This monopoly utility wants to bring
17 orimulsion up the coast of Florida, and wants to
18 bring it into Tampa Bay to, in essence, jam it
19 down Florida's throat. I think this is wrong.
20 I think it is ill-conceived, and you are our
21 last best hope to stop it from happening to
22 Florida.
23 And I would implore you to protect
24 beautiful Florida, and make sure that we keep
25 Florida as beautiful as she should always be.
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1 Thank you for your attention.
2 MR. STENGLE: Let me call on Mayor
3 David Fischer next.
4 MR. FISCHER: Felt like Vanna White there
5 for a minute.
6 Thank you very much, Governor, and members
7 of the Cabinet. I'm Mayor Fischer from
8 St. Petersburg.
9 I represent a city of 240,000 people, the
10 largest municipal coastline in the
11 state of Florida, 125 miles.
12 I was here two years ago, and I mentioned
13 to you that I'd read about orimulsion, heard it
14 was going to appear before the Cabinet. But the
15 truth of the matter was that neither myself, my
16 Council, or my citizens had ever heard anything
17 about it, had never had a presentation.
18 I asked you that day to vote against
19 orimulsion, and you did. And we thanked you for
20 that.
21 To Florida Power & Light's credit over the
22 last two years, they have visited
23 St. Petersburg, and they have briefed the
24 Council, they have briefed me, my staff, and
25 they've had public hearings and reports before
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1 the public in St. Petersburg.
2 But like two years ago, we remain
3 unconvinced. My Council, my citizens, no one
4 that I come across, comes across as a
5 pro-orimulsion person or city.
6 The problem is this: It's a massive dose
7 of orimulsion. This is not a small amount, it's
8 not an experiment. It's taking a large, huge
9 1800 megawatt plant, converting it to the fuel
10 of orimulsion. And this is the introduction of
11 this product to the United States.
12 So Tampa Bay, as the last chart just
13 showed, in flows orimulsion, and we become the
14 guinea pig of this consuming product that in
15 Tampa Bay to date, anyhow, would have doubled
16 the use of orimulsion in the world.
17 In other words, the amount that would come
18 into our bay would equal all the orimulsion in
19 all the plants in the world today.
20 Tampa Bay, as you know, 20 years ago was
21 dying. And the order came from this Legislature
22 to clean it up. And St. Petersburg and all the
23 municipalities have spent hundreds of millions
24 of dollars with our wastewater treatment plants;
25 in St. Petersburg's case, to have zero discharge
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1 in Tampa Bay.
2 As a result of that, the bay is coming
3 back. And with the National Estuary Program,
4 grasses are now growing, fish that had
5 disappeared are reappearing, shellfish are
6 coming back. The bay is coming to life.
7 And we're asked now to be a guinea pig in
8 something that we consider way too risky.
9 Flying up here yesterday, and flying back
10 today, I noticed two things about Tampa Bay. I
11 noticed the air when I get up. And the only
12 really visible air pollution comes from power
13 plants.
14 So I'm asking you today, as I asked you
15 four years ago, I stand before you as a man, as
16 a city, unconvinced. It's too risky for us. We
17 don't need orimulsion. And we ask you once
18 again to vote it down.
19 Thank you very much.
20 MR. STENGLE: Yes. Let me call upon
21 Commissioner Jay Lasita from the St. Petersburg
22 City Council next.
23 MR. LASITA: Governor, members of the
24 Cabinet, my name is Jay Lasita, and I'm a member
25 of the St. Petersburg City Council.
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1 Thirteen days ago, on June 11th, in a
2 unanimous vote, I was designated by our Council
3 to come to this hearing and represent the City
4 of St. Petersburg's formal opposition to
5 Florida Power & Light's application to use the
6 controversial, unproven, and virtually untested
7 pure orimulsion at the Parrish power plant.
8 It should be noted that this is the third
9 such vote we have taken in opposition over the
10 past nine-and-a-half months. The other being
11 the initial resolution we passed late last
12 August in advance of the meeting you had in
13 September, as well as the one in November where
14 we pursued, and were achieved, intervenor status
15 at the recent administrative hearing.
16 It is also important, along the lines of
17 what the Mayor said, to note that we arrived at
18 these decisions after having received most of
19 the information, and much of the same
20 presentation that you have received from
21 representatives of Florida Power & Light,
22 Bitor America, and the Coast Guard.
23 Simply put, St. Petersburg has the greatest
24 amount of population at direct risk to the air
25 emissions this siting would generate, as well as
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1 the greatest amount of coastline that would be
2 exposed in the event of a spill.
3 Now, I know that Florida Power & Light has
4 assertions of savings for its ratepayers, and I
5 know that they've been somewhat of a bone of
6 contention in the course of this debate.
7 But whether you accept those or not, please
8 bear in mind that St. Petersburg is not in
9 FP&L's rate service area.
10 Essentially this means that the community
11 assuming the greatest amount of risk from this
12 project will see none of the benefits that come
13 from it, disputed as they may be.
14 Logic and fairness should dictate that if
15 the use of this fuel is ever approved, it ought
16 to be sited somewhere totally within FP&L's rate
17 service area. Like perhaps Edison Bay down in
18 Fort Myers, where I understand they plan to
19 utilize natural gas. I just say, let those that
20 stand to gain also assume the risk.
21 Couple of quick personal observations. I
22 find the current TV advertising campaign by
23 Florida Power & Light to be somewhat
24 misleading. There's no attempt to frame the
25 issue at all, and it is -- they are really an
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1 affront to any friend of the environment. After
2 all, this is a plain old fossil fuel.
3 Secondly, while I make no claim to
4 scientific expertise on this subject, I am taken
5 with the fact that all the science on this
6 subject seems to have been developed by those
7 with either something to gain, or something to
8 lose if this goes forward.
9 In my view, that sort of science is
10 inherently suspect. This is a project that
11 virtually screams for independent scientific
12 study.
13 Along those lines, I find your staff
14 recommendation to be extremely encouraging.
15 And it should also be noted that the
16 Tampa Bay National Estuary Program, an agency
17 charged with the restoration of Tampa Bay, has
18 submitted a letter to the Congress requesting
19 that they fund the EPA study of this substance
20 that they mandated sometime back.
21 In summary and conclusion, the City of
22 Council of St. Petersburg, its Mayor, and the
23 nearly quarter of a million people that we
24 represent, and also that y'all represent, are
25 opposed to this project.
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1 We should not be, as it's been said before,
2 cast as the guinea pig in this matter. It is
3 totally inappropriate that an ecosystem as
4 fragile as Tampa Bay's should be exposed to this
5 risk, with all the work we've put into restoring
6 that bay.
7 It is absolutely the wrong project at the
8 wrong place, and at the wrong time.
9 As elected officials, our duty extends
10 beyond mere data crunching and analysis. It is
11 incumbent upon us to act in the greater public
12 interest.
13 I submit on this issue at this time, the
14 greater public interest lies in opposition to
15 this project. And hopefully you will reaffirm
16 your prior decision to deny this siting. I can
17 assure you, the people of St. Petersburg would
18 be most appreciative.
19 Thank you very much.
20 MR. STENGLE: Next we have Vice Mayor
21 Dick Holmes from the City of South Pasadena.
22 MR. HOLMES: Governor, members of the
23 Cabinet, last year our City of South Pasadena
24 passed a resolution, and we sent it to you, and
25 you all very graciously sent us back letters
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1 saying that you would give consideration to the
2 fact that we do not want to have orimulsion in
3 the Tampa Bay area.
4 I've handed a copy of this in to the clerk
5 for distribution, along with the material on the
6 back. So I won't go through all the whereases,
7 but I'll get to the therefore, and say: Be it
8 resolved that although there are many
9 precautions which can be taken to reduce the
10 risk of the spill in the bay, including the
11 funding of Vessel Traffic Information System and
12 potential harm, which even a small spill would
13 cause the Tampa Bay area, including
14 South Pasadena, are so enormous that they
15 outweigh any potential benefits the area would
16 enjoy from the conversion of this plant.
17 In particular, the impacts that a spill
18 would have on the shallow waters of Tampa Bay
19 during adverse weather conditions make any
20 conceivable risk of this occurring a risk which
21 is considered unacceptable to the City of
22 South Pasadena.
23 The City of South Pasadena requests that
24 you all deny Florida Power & Light the
25 orimulsion conversion. We passed that last
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1 year, as I said.
2 And this was unanimously passed. And as an
3 aside, when the Florida Power & Light folks made
4 their presentation up there, they alluded to the
5 fact that the Tampa Bay Regional Planning
6 Council has signed on to this.
7 And, in fact, they did in 1995, and there's
8 been a lot of changes in that board. I sit on
9 the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council.
10 And I'm opposed to it. This attests to
11 that. And I'd like the record to show that.
12 Last Sunday, the St. Petersburg Times had a
13 fine editorial saying that Florida doesn't need
14 orimulsion. And I will just conclude with their
15 concluding sentence that says that Florida
16 should not be orimulsion's American guinea pig.
17 Thank you.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
19 MR. STENGLE: Let me call on -- next we
20 have County Commissioner Amy Stein.
21 MS. STEIN: Good morning.
22 Governor and members of the Siting Board, I
23 am County Commissioner Amy Stein from
24 Manatee County.
25 I'm not speaking on behalf of the Board of
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1 County Commissioners, but I am speaking as the
2 Commissioner of the District where the Manatee
3 plant is located, and as a public official who
4 continues to urge denial of this application.
5 I would like to address just three points
6 for your consideration this morning. First,
7 I think staff who are responsible for the
8 assignment to prepare the draft final order have
9 done an impressive job that is a real credit to
10 the government of this state.
11 Second, I implore you to vote to adopt a
12 final order denying certification.
13 I believe orimulsion opponents are
14 rightfully concerned that orimulsion is not
15 comparable to fuel oil Number 6. It is
16 essentially a predisbursed liquid fuel that
17 mixes through the water column.
18 It contains an additive chemical surfactant
19 that is banned, or is being phased out of use,
20 in European countries.
21 The ability to clean up a major spill in
22 open water still has not been demonstrated.
23 Orimulsion doesn't meet the requirements of
24 Manatee County's pollution control code,
25 Ordinance 96-22.
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1 Specific emissions will increase compared
2 with current plant utilization: Carbon
3 monoxide, particulate matter, nitrogen oxide,
4 and cumulative ozone impact wasn't modeled.
5 Fuel cost savings are speculative, not
6 guaranteed, and more dubious with each passing
7 day that oil prices continue to fall.
8 Compared to other fuels, orimulsion will
9 require a very large quantity of water to
10 generate power, about three-and-a-half million
11 gallons of water per day for pollution control
12 equipment alone.
13 With very high levels of sulfur, vanadium,
14 and nickel, a known carcinogen, orimulsion is
15 much dirtier than fuel oil Number 6.
16 This application involves the first
17 permanent, nontest use in the United States of
18 this relatively new manufactured fuel for a
19 period of 20 years, from the year 2000 to the
20 year 2020.
21 This involves use at one location of
22 4 million metric tons of orimulsion, which is
23 more than three times the level of orimulsion
24 used throughout Asia by five power plants
25 combined.
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1 This involves more than all orimulsion used
2 worldwide on a full scale, nontest basis, which
3 is more than the use of eight power plants from
4 five different countries, combined into one
5 location.
6 And the technology that was promised is
7 undemonstrated. In many people's opinion, all
8 of that adds up to one very big experiment.
9 As a third and final matter, there is a
10 bright side to a decision to deny
11 certification. It is a concrete opportunity for
12 members of Florida's electrical power plant
13 Siting Board to translate into reality both
14 pollution prevention and Florida's promise for
15 youth, notably safe places and health in terms
16 of an estimated area of pollution impacts within
17 a 40-mile radius of the Manatee plant, and every
18 breath drawn by every child in every
19 neighborhood community-wide. In towns like
20 Parrish, Duette, Ruskin, Wauchula, Sun City,
21 Ellenton, Palmetto, Snell Isle, Terra Ceia,
22 Myakka, Oneco, Cortez, Bradenton, Anna Maria,
23 Bradenton Beach, Holmes Beach, Longboat Key,
24 Lido Key, Siesta Key, Sarasota, Osprey, Venice,
25 St. Petersburg, Pinellas Park, Largo,
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1 Clearwater, Safety Harbor, Oldsmar, Tampa,
2 Brandon, Plant City, Bartow, and part of
3 Lakeland.
4 Twenty years. Every neighborhood, every
5 child, every breath.
6 In conclusion, this is a defining precedent
7 setting matter for the people of this state and
8 other coastal states of the United States. It
9 has geometric implications.
10 I think people know, through their God
11 given intelligence, that Florida utilities
12 should, can, and ultimately will do better than
13 using orimulsion as proposed by this application
14 for the next two decades.
15 Seize the opportunity that you have now.
16 Make it a reality. Vote to deny certification.
17 As set forth -- as set forth in staff's
18 draft final order, the record, and the law in
19 this matter support denial, and so do thousands
20 of outspoken Florida citizens.
21 I hope all seven of you will unanimously
22 vote to adopt a final order denying
23 certification.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. STENGLE: Commissioner McClash.
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1 County Commissioner Joe McClash.
2 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
3 MR. McCLASH: Good morning, Governor,
4 Cabinet, otherwise known as the Siting Board.
5 My name is Joe McClash, Manatee County
6 Commissioner, serving Manatee County and the
7 County-wide District, serving a little bit over
8 200,000 people.
9 Who would have known several years ago that
10 orimulsion would become a household word. The
11 fact is that it has. And people in
12 Manatee County are concerned about its potential
13 threat to our quality of life.
14 The fear of the unknown has played --
15 always played against new ideas and products.
16 But the ultimate fear of orimulsion is not the
17 unknown, but valid concerns that have not been
18 addressed. The facts are that orimulsion is the
19 dirtiest fuel ever to be proposed, to be used by
20 a utility.
21 Florida Power & Light may be able to
22 attempt to clean up the emissions, but the
23 methods they propose are unproven and
24 unprecedented.
25 The Siting Board has the ultimate
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1 responsibility to protect the best interest of
2 the state of Florida. Florida Power & Light's
3 motives are unknown and unclear since the
4 initial promise of fuel savings have been
5 withdrawn.
6 Manatee County does not need to house a new
7 hazardous waste landfill, it does not need to
8 risk environmental hazards by a fuel that cannot
9 be contained.
10 Manatee County does not need orimulsion for
11 our port to be profitable, and Manatee County
12 does not need orimulsion for the benefit of our
13 economy.
14 Manatee County has a great quality of life,
15 a great environment, and a strong commitment to
16 preserve our fragile resources. Orimulsion
17 threatens our County's most precious asset, our
18 environment.
19 No facts are made that result in overall
20 environmental benefits, as required by Florida
21 law.
22 In contrast, the environment is put at risk
23 with a fuel which readily disperses in the
24 water, and proposes to use untested, new
25 equipment, never having been deployed in real
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1 life conditions.
2 This is an experiment at best.
3 The environment is put at risk when we know
4 we need to reduce NOx emissions, to reduce
5 atmospheric deposition, to reverse the
6 environmental losses of the past.
7 Manatee County has joined with neighboring
8 counties to reduce these nitrogen emissions
9 entering our environment. Approval of untested
10 technology is not acceptable.
11 It is very clear in the supplemental order
12 and the order for final denial that we have no
13 specific findings to determine NOx emissions
14 proposed by burning orimulsion can be achieved.
15 To me, this is just as experimental as the
16 orimulsion recovery methods proposed.
17 Manatee County has always set high
18 standards for power plant operations as a
19 condition of its initial approval back when
20 Florida Power & Light first gained approval for
21 its Parrish plant, limiting the fuel in our air
22 ordinance to the 1 percent sulfur fuel content.
23 This allows the County to ensure that dirty
24 fuels are not used. It also allows a public
25 hearing process to be used at a local level of
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1 government if the utility wants to change that
2 fuel type.
3 I am glad you recognize our air ordinance
4 in the order of denial. This Cabinet acting as
5 the Siting Board has to set a high standard for
6 major polluters, such as Florida Power & Light.
7 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
8 MR. McCLASH: The order of denial clearly
9 outlines the reason for denial that reflect my
10 concerns, and the concerns of the majority of
11 people I represent.
12 The order of denial I believe is also fair,
13 and it gives direction for future application of
14 a fuel change at the Parrish power plant.
15 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
16 MR. McCLASH: There is no reason
17 responsible, elected officials with a goal of
18 setting high standards for the state of Florida
19 would vote against the order of denial.
20 I urge every one of you to vote for the
21 order of denial.
22 Governor, I also want to challenge you
23 today to establish a task force that will look
24 into clean air standards that will preserve
25 Florida's fragile air environment.
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1 I attended your Intermodel summit last week
2 in Jacksonville, and I ask that no less
3 importance is shown our environment. And I
4 challenge you to do the same for our environment
5 for air standards, as what you've done with our
6 Intermodel, which I applaud your efforts there.
7 So thank you for your time, and please, as
8 a whole, vote for the order of denial.
9 MR. STENGLE: Our last -- our last elected
10 official before we go to public testimony will
11 be County Commissioner Jon Bruce.
12 MR. BRUCE: Governor, distinguished members
13 of this Siting Board, it is my privilege, and I
14 count it an honor to stand before you today. My
15 name is Jon Bruce. I am representing myself and
16 countless numbers of my constituents in
17 Manatee County who are --
18 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
19 MR. BRUCE: -- very concerned about this
20 project.
21 I stand before you today in opposition to
22 the use of orimulsion at the Manatee plant for
23 the following reasons: The citizens of
24 Manatee County would be the subjects in this
25 grand experiment.
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1 Never before has orimulsion been used in
2 the quantities proposed, with the new and
3 untried technology required to meet the
4 proposed, permitted emissions. That is a fact.
5 We're hearing a lot today about facts, and
6 that's fact number one, that this is an
7 experiment by which the citizens of
8 Manatee County would be the subjects.
9 Number two, orimulsion could damage our
10 local economy. We hear a lot of talk about
11 enhancement of the local economy. But the fact
12 of the matter is that this -- this experiment
13 does not go the way that we all hope it would
14 go, should it pass, but if it does not, what is
15 going to happen to the reputation of
16 Manatee County and its quality of life?
17 That would damage our local economy, it
18 would hinder our efforts to attract further
19 tourism, which we depend on greatly. It would
20 also hinder our efforts to attract full-time
21 residents. And it would also hinder our
22 attempts to bring in and expand our business
23 base.
24 Further, I personally know of one couple by
25 which the gentleman only has one lung. And he
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1 kept asking me questions about the orimulsion
2 project and where it stood and what the process
3 was.
4 And he finally told me two weeks ago why he
5 was so interested. And he's interested because
6 of the fact that he does have the one lung, and
7 he is giving serious consideration -- and has
8 already made the decision -- that he will have
9 to move from Manatee County because he is simply
10 not going to take the chance, should this
11 project not go well, that he is going to only
12 have one lung. And he cannot risk that lung.
13 In short, we have a quality of life that we
14 are proud of in Manatee County. We not only
15 want to seek to maintain that quality of life,
16 we want to seek to enhance it.
17 As a policymaker at the local level of
18 government, it is my hope that at the State
19 level, and at the national level, that we will
20 always be working hard to obtain and strive for
21 energy policies that would encourage cleaner
22 fuels to be used in the future, and not dirtier
23 fuels.
24 As a father of small children, I am
25 concerned about the effects of the ultra fine
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1 small particulate matter on their lungs. That
2 is the level that I understand is going to
3 increase. We have not heard much about that.
4 I am concerned about the negative impacts
5 an orimulsion spill will have on Tampa Bay. The
6 world has yet to see a true, real world test of
7 an orimulsion spill.
8 I can only wonder what it would happen to
9 be like, should it occur, or when it occurs.
10 It is my hope that today will be a day that
11 is remembered as June 24th, 1998, the day the
12 Siting Board stood with the citizens of
13 Manatee County by not allowing its citizens to
14 be used as subjects in this grand experiment.
15 And in so doing, sends a clear message that
16 Florida is serious about enhancing its quality
17 of life, and the State's image on environmental
18 matters.
19 As Nancy Reagan said back in the '80s when
20 we were dealing with the proliferation of the
21 drug industry in our country, just say no.
22 And that's what I ask you to do today, just
23 say no.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. STENGLE: We now move to public -- to
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1 members of the general public, and would ask you
2 to please not repeat points that others have
3 made, and to keep your comments short. We're
4 running -- running low on time.
5 We'll do Rita Carlson, and then
6 Manley Fuller.
7 MS. RITA CARLSON: Governor and Cabinet, my
8 name is Rita Carlson. I've been here I think so
9 many times, I know you by your face now. I
10 don't have to worry about who you are anymore.
11 I still get nervous when I come to the
12 podium, so this time I brought reinforcement.
13 This is my daughter, Megan Carlson. We're from
14 Port Tampa.
15 We've resolved the trucking issue.
16 Thank you.
17 Unfortunately there are more issues at hand
18 other than just the trucking issue.
19 I brought with me the most important thing
20 in my life. That's this. It's not just her
21 though, it's not just for her that I stand
22 before you and ask you to say no. It's not just
23 for my own backyard, it's not just for my own
24 little community, it's not even just for my own
25 little state that I'm standing here.
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1 I'm not here to use any fear tactics on
2 you. Who am I for you to be afraid of? I'm
3 just a little person who lives in a little tiny
4 community.
5 But I am here to use one tactic on you, and
6 that is for you to think, not just about this
7 state, not just about this -- this end of our
8 area, but about this whole entire world.
9 And to help you do that, I noticed many
10 times before that some of the other people used
11 visual aids. So I have two of them with me.
12 One of them is from a troop -- her
13 Girl Scout troop, which is planning on going to
14 Kansas pretty soon to see the last untouched
15 prairie lands in the United States. It should
16 be an interesting week.
17 But the girls got together, and they wrote
18 to you a card. They wrote their opinions of
19 what to do about orimulsion based on their
20 limited knowledge of the subject, how they feel
21 about it. I didn't prep them for this. I found
22 one of the remarks to be extremely interesting:
23 If you teach us to practice safe sex, why
24 do you not teach, and why do you not practice,
25 safe shipping? I found that to be quite
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1 interesting.
2 So what we'd like to do is to present you
3 with some visual aids. Number one is the card
4 from the Girl Scouts with their little writings
5 on them. I won't go any further. But you can
6 see where the one I just quoted is.
7 And, number two, when my daughter was born
8 and she was old enough to understand, I promised
9 her the world. I promised her the moon and the
10 stars as well. And obviously, as she's gotten
11 older, I couldn't deliver the moon or the stars
12 or the world.
13 And she asked me when we were coming up
14 here, she says, mom, I want to talk to them, but
15 I'm scared to talk to them.
16 And I said, well, honey, you know, in our
17 environment and the way that I was raised is
18 that I don't have any political background, I'm
19 not a paid lobbyist, I'm not even an unpaid
20 lobbyist, I'm just a person standing up for what
21 I believe. And it's not just for me. It's for
22 all of them and the seven generations that
23 come.
24 And we're asking you and counting on you to
25 make a logical decision.
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1 I admire FP&L's diligence. I do. And if
2 it were my company, I'd want them to be in
3 charge of my marketing. Honest to God.
4 I wouldn't want anybody else in charge of
5 my marketing, other than them. And I admire
6 their seeking out an alternative to our energy
7 crisis.
8 It's only this big. That's all we've got.
9 That's it. When it's gone, there is no more.
10 You don't wait until the snake bites you to
11 go, God, I should have worn snake boots.
12 Please help us.
13 My daughter would like to say something to
14 you, but I'm going to have her deliver first to
15 you her world, my world, your world so that you
16 can touch it. You can either throw it up in the
17 air. And probably by the end of the session, I
18 would imagine most of you'd like to take it and
19 toss it that way. I'll be ducking.
20 Please, we're just a speck. Even the
21 state of Florida is just a speck in the big
22 scheme of things. But remember that it's all
23 interwoven.
24 Remember that without us, it was all
25 perfect and it ran just fine. And now that
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1 we're here, even with our best intentions, we're
2 still going to make mistakes. Even if they
3 double hulled, triple hulled, quadrupled hulled
4 the stuff that's -- the orimulsion is in, the
5 tankers, you will not eliminate human error, you
6 will not eliminate ever human error.
7 I'm going to have my -- let her say
8 something to you, and then we'll bring you the
9 globe, the world.
10 MS. MEGAN CARLSON: Please don't kill the
11 animals and plants. If -- if they die, then I'm
12 going to die with them. And one day I want to
13 become to be just like you, but I won't be able
14 to do that if orimulsion will kill the animals
15 that feed me.
16 Please. Vote no for orimulsion.
17 MS. RITA CARLSON: Thank you for your time.
18 MR. STENGLE: Next we have Manley Fuller,
19 then Charles Lee, then David Lavery.
20 MR. FULLER: Governor and Cabinet, I'm
21 Manley Fuller representing the
22 Florida Wildlife Federation.
23 On behalf of our Board of Directors, we
24 respectfully request that you deny certification
25 for the use of orimulsion. We -- after
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1 reviewing the draft final order prepared by
2 staff, it's apparent in the concluding --
3 conclusion sections on pages 42 through 44, that
4 this -- this application does not meet the site
5 criteria standards. And we think that a -- that
6 a denial is warranted.
7 We're particularly concerned about the
8 nitrous oxide, potential air pollution problems,
9 and potential threats to the Tampa Bay
10 ecosystem.
11 Thank you very much.
12 MR. LEE: Governor Chiles, members of the
13 Siting Board, Charles Lee representing the
14 Florida Audubon Society, speaking here today on
15 behalf of our 35,000 members throughout the
16 state of Florida, and also on behalf of the five
17 Audubon chapters that are located in the
18 immediate vicinity of the proposed use of
19 orimulsion in the Tampa Bay area.
20 Governor, and members of the Cabinet,
21 Florida Audubon Society, through its Board of
22 Directors, has voted to take a position urging
23 that orimulsion not be approved. And our
24 sentiments are very strongly in line with the
25 proposed order that your staff has prepared with
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1 regard to this matter.
2 Governor, I'd like to take a -- a special
3 moment here to offer on behalf of the Florida
4 Audubon Society a strong commendation to your
5 staff in their preparation of the proposed final
6 order in this matter.
7 I think that they have done a lot to cut
8 through the fogginess of this issue, to get to
9 the specific issues of environmental merit. And
10 I think coming out with a recommendation that
11 they have to disapprove the use of orimulsion,
12 they have -- they have gotten to the bottom of
13 the matter.
14 One thing that I would like to emphasize
15 briefly with regard to this issue. If
16 everything else were cast aside, if everything
17 else were taken out of the loop of
18 consideration, you have the fact that
19 Manatee County has adopted a valid local
20 ordinance prohibiting the burning of fuel with
21 greater than 1 percent sulfur content.
22 The hearing officer essentially cast aside
23 that issue and did not regard Manatee County's
24 valid ordinance as a reason to deal with this
25 issue.
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1 In your proposed final order, your staff
2 has taken due note of the valid existence of
3 this ordinance, the fact that the
4 Florida Power & Light Corporation has not
5 applied for any variance to burn fuel in excess
6 of 1 percent sulfur content, and the fact that
7 is elucidated in the findings of fact of the
8 hearing officer, that orimulsion does contain a
9 sulfur content that is greater than 1 percent.
10 You can find this in paragraph 28, page 22,
11 of the proposed order.
12 I just say if everything else was cast
13 aside, because the Power Plant Siting Act
14 requires compliance with the applicable
15 nonprocedural requirements of agencies,
16 including Manatee County, on this point alone,
17 the certification of orimulsion at this site
18 would need to be denied.
19 I congratulate your staff for --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: But --
21 MR. LEE: -- bringing this point to --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- but you would agree
23 the Siting Board has the right to go above -- to
24 go over that --
25 MR. LEE: I think the Board has got a lot
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1 of discretion, yes, sir.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. But I --
3 you know, just so we --
4 MR. LEE: Yeah.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- we don't want to
6 create precedence here or anything else.
7 I think the Siting Board would have the
8 authority in the statewide issue of the thing to
9 say we -- we expressly overrule that order -- or
10 we go beyond that.
11 MR. LEE: I think the Board, sir, has a lot
12 of discretion --
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
14 MR. LEE: -- and I think your staff has
15 pointed to an appropriate resolution of that
16 discretion in the context of this case, and we
17 commend them for it.
18 Thank you very much, and we hope you act to
19 deny this matter today.
20 MR. LAVERY: Governor, members of the
21 Cabinet, it is a pleasure to appear before you.
22 My name is David Lavery, and I live in
23 Tampa, and I'm chairman of the Florida State
24 Legislative Board for the Brotherhood of
25 Locomotive Engineers.
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1 Your responsibility is an important one,
2 and I have a great respect for the decision you
3 have to make today.
4 Our union represents 500 locomotive
5 engineers who live and work in Florida, and
6 thousands more who live in other states, but
7 handle equipment bound for Florida.
8 Trains driven by our engineers move
9 products like orange juice, paper, and coal to
10 the state's seaports, manufacturing facilities,
11 and power stations.
12 We have a deep appreciation for the
13 international marketplace. However, we are
14 deeply concerned of what happens when jobs are
15 displaced out of the country, and we make our
16 sales more dependent on foreign fuel.
17 We chip away at the very foundation of our
18 nation's labor and economic infrastructure.
19 Many of our members will lose their jobs as a
20 result of this shift.
21 All that said, however, I am also deeply
22 concerned about the potential for Florida's
23 largest utility shifting to a reliance of a
24 single source fuel, from a nation with the
25 potential for political instability.
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1 What happens if the political winds shift,
2 and those who control orimulsion opt to reduce
3 supply to the United States? What happens if
4 the nation faces a financial crunch and uses its
5 monopolistic power to increase price?
6 There are those who -- who would say that
7 it hasn't happened, and there are those who
8 would say that it can happen.
9 But according to the Miami Herald,
10 Venezuela played the linchpin role in brokering
11 an agreement among key oil companies to curtail
12 production in an effort to bump up sagging oil
13 prices.
14 Even today as we are being told that
15 Venezuela has met all its OPEC commitments to
16 the United States, it is using its power to
17 market dominance -- of market dominance to
18 affect price.
19 Should we let them take such action to give
20 them more power to influence the cost of our
21 electricity? Please don't misunderstand me, I'm
22 not suggesting that we close out our borders to
23 foreign trade. We need international commerce
24 to survive.
25 However, what I am saying is that
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1 regardless of the issue, there appears to be
2 more questions than answers about orimulsion.
3 Governor, members of the Cabinet, thank you
4 for your time, and until we have better answers
5 to the many questions, I would urge you to
6 reject Florida's bid for the use of orimulsion.
7 Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
9 MR. STENGLE: Next we have Pat Fraga, and
10 then Ro Walsh.
11 MR. FRAGA: Good morning, Governor and
12 members of the Cabinet, my name is
13 Patrick Fraga. I'm the local legislative
14 representative for the United Transportation
15 Union, Local 1035, Lakeland, Florida. I work
16 out of the Winston terminal.
17 Just to add, you're very popular, Governor,
18 down there in the railroad yards.
19 I'm here today on behalf of my 3,000 fellow
20 workers in Florida who oppose the use of
21 orimulsion in the state. We're all American
22 workers who help transport American fuel.
23 We're proud of the jobs we do, and proud of
24 the role we play in generating electricity for
25 thousands of families and businesses across
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1 Florida, and across the United States.
2 Is it really in the best interest of our
3 state to displace American jobs and domestic
4 fuels for the foreign fuel from a single
5 source?
6 Orimulsion is subject to political
7 vulnerabilities that could unnecessarily impact
8 supply and price. Even the Administrative Law
9 Judge agreed with that when he said, in the real
10 world, monopolies generally try to exercise
11 their power by attempting to reduce supply and
12 increase price.
13 But there are many other important
14 arguments, and I know you've heard them many
15 times before. I hope that you will not allow
16 our great state to become a guinea pig for a
17 fuel that has never been used before in the
18 United States. Put simply, there are just too
19 many unanswered questions about orimulsion.
20 Can a spill be contained and cleaned up,
21 will air pollution increase, will orimulsion
22 really save money? Proponents of the fuel say
23 trust us.
24 They say this project is the most
25 scrutinized, the most studied proposal in
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1 Florida. If that is true, I say more work must
2 be done.
3 Florida's sensitive environment is not a
4 laboratory; and its citizens, not mice. We
5 simply should not take a risk on this
6 speculative fuel.
7 As Florida's leading policymakers, I urge
8 you to vote no on orimulsion until the questions
9 can be answered.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. STENGLE: Go ahead.
12 MS. WALSH: I guess it's good afternoon,
13 Governor Chiles, honorable Board members of our
14 Cabinet. My name is Rosette Walsh. I am
15 President of Florida Consumer Action Network, a
16 nonprofit, grassroots, consumer and
17 environmental lobby group with more than
18 43,000 members throughout the state of Florida,
19 from Key West to Tallahassee.
20 We are here as volunteers. Our folks who
21 came up with us have given up their own time,
22 and are not being paid to be here with me.
23 We came to tell you that we are opposed to
24 the use of orimulsion for all of the reasons you
25 have heard. I have been cutting pieces off my
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1 talk because I don't want to keep repeating the
2 same things. I'm sure you're tired of hearing
3 them. So I'm just going to try to be brief and
4 summarize our position, and why we're here.
5 We are opposed to the use of orimulsion
6 because of the increases in sulfur, nitrogen,
7 and carbon dioxide, and the very small
8 particulate matter that'll be produced, because
9 it will contribute to the acid rain that will
10 fall down on us after we have inhaled some of
11 it.
12 We are opposed because we do not believe
13 that the current technology can contain a spill
14 which would most likely take place during foul
15 weather, storms. We are the lightning capital.
16 We do have hurricanes in Florida. And all of
17 these factors would have to be considered as
18 possibilities when you're thinking of a possible
19 spill.
20 I know they would try to avoid it, but I
21 don't know that we can always do that.
22 It appears to us that it would be
23 counterproductive to introduce a fuel that adds
24 both air and water pollution, and makes us
25 dependent on a foreign country product with one
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1 nation having a monopoly on that product.
2 We believe that Florida and our nation
3 should be moving toward cleaner, safer,
4 renewable energy sources for all of the reasons
5 stated by myself and previous speakers.
6 We have --
7 (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
8 MS. WALSH: -- spoken to thousands of
9 people in the Bay area. We have come up here
10 with the petitions that we have collected from
11 these folks. We have over 15,000, and we do
12 believe they're closer to 16,000. But, honest,
13 I swear, we lost count.
14 We were so busy taping the petitions
15 together to make them into a banner, that at
16 some point along the way, we did lose count.
17 But we got to 15,000. After that, we
18 stopped taping them together because it got to
19 be so big that I needed a bigger staff to be
20 able to actually open it up to show people.
21 What we would like to do is submit the
22 names that we have on our petition to be part of
23 the record for this hearing.
24 And we would like you to notice that our
25 petitions are wrapped in blue ribbons, which we
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1 hope will symbolize the color that our sky and
2 ocean and bay will be.
3 Please deny the permit, and do not make us
4 the guinea pigs. And please accept our
5 petitions.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. STENGLE: The opponents of the project
8 have 10 minutes left. Please, we will try to
9 get to as many speakers as possible.
10 Sofia Metcalf, then Frank Jackalone, then
11 Mary Sheppard.
12 MS. METCALF: Members of the
13 Siting Committee, excuse me, I've never been
14 here before, and this is new for me.
15 I am here representing members of a support
16 group. We are called the Environmentally
17 Challenged Group, meaning we have been damaged
18 by the environment that we have worked in, or
19 that we have lived in.
20 Eight years ago I -- the only drug I ever
21 took was aspirin on an occasional basis. This
22 is now an every day thing for me. These are
23 inhalers for asthma. I now have reactive airway
24 disease, occupational environmental asthma.
25 These two drugs alone, when I have to take
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1 them four times a day in my nebulizer, come to
2 $500 a month. I want you to understand the cost
3 of treating this illness that I have.
4 A year ago last May, with all the drugs
5 that I was on -- I'm not going to go into all of
6 them, but I'll just give you -- this is one of
7 the drugs. I'm just going to bring them out
8 just so you can see the myriad of drugs that I
9 have had to take to treat my illness.
10 These drugs come to approximately $1100 a
11 month to treat one illness. I have never had an
12 illness before of this magnitude.
13 I'm -- I also take supplements, because I
14 have found that by going -- organic diet,
15 organic supplements, I can actually reduce the
16 number of drugs that I need. I pay for the
17 supplements out of my own pocket. They come up
18 to about -- approximately $100 a month.
19 These are more of the drugs.
20 The people that I represent --
21 (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
22 MS. METCALF: -- I'm the president of the
23 support group. I'm very mild compared to these
24 people, and these are the drugs and things that
25 I have to take.
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1 I have members of my support group -- the
2 drugs that they take cost -- would cost out of
3 pocket over $3,000 a month. Some of them are
4 $3,600 a month that these people have to be
5 treated for, for an environmental condition.
6 None of us asked to get sick, none of us planned
7 to get sick, none of us like being sick.
8 I am one of the more fortunate people. I
9 have been set up by my employer, which happens
10 to be the State of Florida, to work in home. I
11 can still continue to work.
12 However, you can see all these things. And
13 one would think that I can then live in any
14 environment. The fact of the matter is, these
15 drugs would not let me live in a polluted air
16 environment. My environment has to be as clean
17 as possible.
18 When the air quality outside is bad, I get
19 much more sick. These drugs have no effect
20 whatsoever. These drugs will not let me live in
21 a polluted air environment, be it inside or
22 outside.
23 When we had our air quality alert last
24 month, it put me in a lot of trouble. I still
25 did fairly well, compared to the rest of the
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1 people. I didn't have to go on steroids, I
2 didn't have to go on antibiotics. Most of the
3 support members did.
4 So as you consider this permitting process,
5 I ask you consider the real cost of
6 environmental illness.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. JACKALONE: I am Frank Jackalone. I am
9 the national field representative of the
10 Sierra Club in Florida.
11 And I would like to say that the national
12 Sierra Club is opposed to giving this permit,
13 the Florida -- to Florida Power & Light, partly
14 because of the threat to increase global warming
15 from the nitrogen oxide emissions; the massive
16 water needs of this plant; the fine particulates
17 that will be emitted; as well as those that will
18 remain in the fly ash; the surfactant that's
19 being used; and our estimatation that the
20 potential cost savings just are not workable.
21 And are not worth it to us and to our health,
22 frankly.
23 I would like to yield directly to
24 Mary Sheppard, who was our clean air coordinator
25 for the Sierra Club.
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1 And I will also ask you that there were
2 70 people who came up here today from
3 Manatee County, Hillsborough County, and
4 Pinellas County. They have been -- a lot of
5 them have been waiting outside. They've been
6 standing. Many of them are senior citizens.
7 Can we just ask them to come in for a
8 second while Mary gives her presentation.
9 Is that permittable -- permissible with
10 you -- to you? At least to recognize them in
11 some way.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think we would
13 certainly try to do that. We want to make sure
14 that we don't create any safety hazard. So --
15 but if they could -- if they could just come
16 through, we would be happy -- we're very sorry
17 that anybody would have to wait outside. We do
18 have a limited capacity here --
19 MR. JACKALONE: They came up on buses, and
20 they left at 3:30 in the morning.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. Ask them --
22 MR. JACKALONE: Okay. Thank you very much,
23 Governor.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- if they will come
25 through.
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1 MR. JACKALONE: We'll get them out.
2 And Mary.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
4 MS. SHEPPARD: I am Mary Sheppard, and I am
5 representing the 22,000 members of the Florida
6 chapter of Sierra Club.
7 We have not taken this proposal lightly.
8 I, and other members of our different
9 committees, have been very diligent in following
10 the trail of facts to corroborate every piece of
11 information to establish a clear picture what
12 this fuel is, and how it burns, and what is left
13 after burn.
14 And what we have is a hazy picture. We
15 feel that there is -- there's still too many
16 promises that cannot be answered with proven
17 technology. Particularly the surfactant, not
18 tested for impact on larval stages in the water
19 column, not tested for bioaccumulation up the
20 food chain. And in the particulates, that they
21 are -- the ones proposed are not efficient
22 enough.
23 Is it worth 20 years' of cumulative
24 pollution for a 50- to 100-mile radius to let
25 FPL use a less than top pollution control
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1 technology that does exist.
2 And in the fly ash, there are no plans to
3 take out the vanadium and nickel. If stored on
4 site, it will eventually leak into the
5 groundwater. If disposed of in cement blocks,
6 it can leach out.
7 And another question I added as I listened
8 this morning is the system-wide reduction in
9 toxins promised by FPL.
10 Well, if they are going to reduce these
11 pollutants system-wide, that will need to be
12 written into the permits that they currently
13 have reducing the amount of pollutants they can
14 emit. And how will this be done, should they be
15 given a permit.
16 And then the other thing I would like to
17 share is what one of your Aides asked me to do
18 yesterday, which is to give you -- and I didn't
19 bring enough really -- hard copies.
20 A man in Dalhousie, New Brunswick, took the
21 time to look on the Internet, found my name, and
22 e-mail address, and sent me two letters. And
23 I'd like to read you just one statement from it
24 that he said:
25 Since they started burning orimulsion,
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1 everyone in the area have talked about the high
2 increase in asthma and breathing problems faced
3 by all, and most noticeably in our children.
4 So I'll leave you a few copies, and it is
5 on your e-mail, and I faxed it to
6 Governor Chiles' office yesterday. And these --
7 And thank you very much for your time. And
8 needless to say, Sierra Club would like you to
9 deny the permit.
10 Thank you very much for your hard work.
11 MR. JACKALONE: Governor, we -- we have
12 our -- our people here who came in on buses
13 leaving at 3:30 and 4:00 this morning.
14 If they could stand and -- as well as those
15 in the aisles, and then I know we're going to be
16 ushered out so we don't have a fire hazard
17 here.
18 Okay. All those who came on buses today,
19 could you please stand and --
20 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: Some are outside.
21 MR. JACKALONE: Some are outside still.
22 Thank you very much.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
24 MR. JACKALONE: Sorry.
25 I -- some people aren't going to be able to
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1 speak. But some people representing the League
2 of Women Voters, AARP, the Izaak Walton League
3 had come on those buses and they wanted you to
4 know that.
5 Thank you.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
7 MR. STENGLE: We have approximately
8 3 minutes left, Governor, for the -- for
9 opponents, and we have two speakers that -- that
10 we will be able to accommodate within that
11 time.
12 That would be Ernie Bach and
13 Barbara Dutton.
14 MR. BACH: Good morning, Governor,
15 Honorable members. My name is Ernie Bach. I'm
16 here today as the Executive Director of the
17 Florida Action Coalition -- a team coalition of
18 60 organizations throughout Florida.
19 We've been in opposition to this
20 potentially devastating project -- product since
21 1995. And I would ask that you take note that
22 there has been little change in the concerns,
23 the facts, and the realistic arguments then and
24 now.
25 Today we call it the same thing. Why?
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1 Because there's been nothing relevant, nothing
2 documented, nothing tested, nothing proven that
3 has realistically and actually changed anything
4 since 1995. There's a lot of words; a lot of
5 technical promises, yes, but nothing really
6 documentably changed.
7 A recent Federal plan wants local
8 governments to invest up to 75 million dollars
9 in new antipollution plants. Who pays for
10 these? Not FP&L. The taxpayers do.
11 The Tampa Bay Estuary Program recently
12 identified nitrogen as the Tampa Bay area's
13 major pollutant. The cost has stabilized at
14 three to five million dollars per year for the
15 next 14 years. Who will pay for it? The
16 taxpayers will. They play, we pay.
17 I had a very interesting anecdote, but I'm
18 going to pass it all by so I'll let somebody
19 else make some comments.
20 All this activity on orimulsion is being
21 done after Federal, State, and local agencies
22 have spent multimillions trying to improve and
23 protect Tampa Bay. Has it all been for naught?
24 One of the thousands of men, women, and
25 children hours; the volunteers who have cleaned
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1 the beaches, the shorelines; who planted
2 sea grasses and mangroves; and who police
3 Tampa Bay, which is now showing signs of rebirth
4 and rejuvenation. Is that all for naught?
5 Our previous tax dollars have been spent
6 for all this. Let's not dissolve it in the bay.
7 Unequivocally, those voting constituents
8 throughout our great state are being educated on
9 this as a priority issue. And I'm here today to
10 tell you that those voters will show their
11 appreciation to the members of the Cabinet who
12 have the logic and the common sense to make the
13 intelligent decision and vote down orimulsion.
14 Thank you.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
16 MS. DUTTON: Hi. Down to the last few
17 seconds, and thank you all for letting me speak,
18 and for all the people you've heard on both
19 sides of the issue.
20 I -- this -- for a change of pace, I have a
21 shriller voice, and I wrote it in poetic
22 format. We were here last year, and we're
23 back. So I call this Up the Hill and Back
24 Again.
25 Jack and Jill came up the hill. So did I
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1 with my daughter to discuss a controversial
2 fuel, threatening our air and water.
3 We've seen results of oil spills. They
4 fill us with revulsion. So why on earth would
5 FPL use tar based orimulsion?
6 At first this tarry plan was failed by
7 close vote, to our elation. But they
8 challenged, and the Court upheld, the Cabinet's
9 motivation.
10 Declaring you must, point-by-point,
11 substantiate objections while FPL planned new
12 defense, revisions, and corrections.
13 Their lawyer spoke, then introduced their
14 power on parade. Presidents of FPL and Bitor
15 and witnesses in spades.
16 They juggled scientific data, while true
17 facts are derailed. Of course finer
18 particulates will damage when inhaled.
19 And as for innovation, why not solar, why
20 this route? FPL offers no answer, it seems the
21 point is moot.
22 Last time here wound up an exercise in
23 statistics and semantics when the ball bounced
24 back into the Court for further antics.
25 We made it home that time by bus, at
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1 3:00 a.m. Worn down by the futility of standing
2 for the people against the power of a utility.
3 Since then, the media has been barraged by
4 slinging this information, the kind of hype that
5 has massaged the conscience of a nation.
6 They proffer double hulled tankers, channel
7 safety rules, and more. Does no one wonder why
8 they did not offer these before?
9 It's a carrot that they hold up now, just
10 to clinch the deal. They could have done it for
11 oil Number 6, if their spill concerns were
12 real.
13 Instead, ship's hulls and pilots have
14 collided leaving spoil, while safeguards slipped
15 through loopholes that are slicker than the oil.
16 What booms they lack for cleanup, they make
17 up for with PR. Hide the stain beneath the
18 surface, where the ocean bears the scar.
19 Now, these purveyors of power are urging,
20 trust us, let's get to it. The profit's theirs,
21 the risk is ours; and if they're wrong, we can't
22 undo it.
23 So today we come to meet again. It's once
24 more to the breach. We hope and pray that
25 justice may still be within our reach.
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1 The bouncing buck at last stops here.
2 Decision is at hand. We pray the he coon will
3 walk tall and protect his native land.
4 With wisdom -- with wisdom great as
5 Solomon, old as the land of Goshen, recall the
6 rule: If you must err, be it on the side of
7 caution.
8 Amen.
9 MR. STENGLE: Governor, members of the
10 Siting Board, that concludes the number -- the
11 people that we have time for on both sides.
12 Let me just read the names, Jeanne Jochens,
13 J.D. Markel, Deb Swim, Carl Keeler, Ed Paschall,
14 and others were not -- we weren't able to get to
15 those.
16 What we -- we have had a request from
17 Tedd Williams, the Manatee County attorney,
18 and -- and Mark Barnebey from the Manatee County
19 Attorney's Office to speak very briefly neither
20 against nor in favor of orimulsion.
21 And then we will give a few minutes to the
22 proponents to rebut anything on that.
23 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
24 MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon,
25 Governor Chiles, members of the Cabinet. I'm
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1 Tedd Williams, County Attorney for
2 Manatee County. And with me is Mark Barnebey.
3 And we will present the position that has
4 been approved by the majority of the Board of
5 County Commissioners of Manatee County.
6 As the local government of jurisdiction,
7 Manatee County filed a report with the
8 Department of Environmental Protection,
9 reviewing the application for the proposed
10 Manatee orimulsion conversion project for
11 consistency with the Manatee County
12 Comprehensive Plan, its land development code,
13 environmental and other regulations of the
14 County to the extent that they would apply to
15 the project.
16 With two exceptions, which were resolved by
17 variances, the County found in 1995 that the
18 project, if ultimately approved by this Board,
19 would comply with said ordinances and
20 regulations with the inclusion of 53 original
21 conditions that were set forth in the
22 Manatee County report.
23 The County has also examined the new
24 conditions proposed by FPL over the course of
25 the last several months. The County found these
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1 revisions and additions to the proposed
2 conditions to be beneficial amendments.
3 Further, the County found them to be
4 consistent with the comprehensive plan and the
5 applicable County codes and regulations in light
6 of the Administrative Law Judge's ruling on the
7 applicability of the Manatee County Air
8 Ordinance, 96-22.
9 As such, the County recommends that the new
10 conditions, as noted in the revised conditions
11 submitted by DEP, as part of the agenda package,
12 be included if certification is granted.
13 It should be noted that the Board of County
14 Commissioners did specifically vote to state
15 that although it recommends --
16 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
17 MR. WILLIAMS: -- these conditions be
18 included in the certification, if approved by
19 the Siting Board, it did not intend for its
20 entry into the stipulation to be construed as
21 agreeing with the use of orimulsion at the
22 plant.
23 The Board of County Commissioners of
24 Manatee County has not voted to recommend or
25 deny approval of the certification.
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1 Thank you.
2 MR. STENGLE: Governor, then we have
3 Florida Power & Light, Peter Cunningham, for a
4 few moments of rebuttal.
5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I respect your patience
6 and your willingness to listen once again. I'll
7 try to be brief -- I will be brief.
8 There's just a few points I want to respond
9 to. I guess I'd point out, there are a lot of
10 people out there in the lobby who were
11 proponents who couldn't find a seat in here as
12 well, if that matters any.
13 But I guess I'd like to -- to point out
14 what may be obvious, but that generally,
15 listening to the -- or at least many of the
16 opponents, I sometimes feel, and right now, feel
17 as though I may be Alice in Wonderland. Less is
18 more somehow.
19 I hear concerns about air pollution. They
20 sound completely sincere to me. But not the
21 slightest recognition of the judge's findings,
22 twice now, after long hearings, that there will
23 be less air pollution if this project goes
24 forward.
25 No recognition of his findings, twice now,
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1 that the human health risks from air pollution
2 will be reduced as a result of this project.
3 Likewise on spills. That's been a somewhat
4 unique issue to this project, and one which a
5 lot of people have spent a lot of time on.
6 I hear the people say they're concerned
7 about spills. So is Florida Power & Light
8 Company. So is Bitor.
9 And in their concern, I hear not the
10 slightest recognition of the judge's findings,
11 which I went over with you; that with
12 orimulsion, there will be 20 times -- a minimum
13 of 20 times less risk to the bay.
14 And you may wonder, how can you come to
15 those conclusions. Believe me, there were
16 experts on all sides of this. The judge
17 listened and heard and that -- those were his
18 findings. And I believe he recognized the
19 importance of the issue.
20 There was mention made of Mote Marine, a
21 respected institution in this state. I feel I
22 need to remind you that CSX has circulated at
23 least two reports with their name on it, but for
24 whatever reason, chose not to ever call
25 Dr. LeGore, or any other person from the staff
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1 of that institution, although they've been
2 listed as witnesses.
3 Never called them to be a witness. Never
4 exposed them to cross-examination, to our system
5 of trying to find the truth.
6 And as to the general comments of Mr. Reese
7 and Mr. Curtin and Mr. Kumarich, all of whom
8 were present for the remand hearing, they all
9 had a chance to call their witnesses. They made
10 all their arguments to the judge. And I think
11 they're simply unhappy that so few -- so very
12 few of the judge's findings favor their
13 position.
14 I'd also just mention one specific thing,
15 because I -- if I understood Mr. Curtin right,
16 he suggested that I told you something -- had
17 something on the slide that was not of record.
18 And I -- it had to do with the Italian
19 power plant, which using reburn with oil got
20 down to .011, below this number that some would
21 say is in controversy here.
22 And I just point him, and you, to finding
23 of fact number 65 of Judge Johnston's order,
24 which was based on the testimony of
25 Dr. Roy Payne, an acknowledged expert. Perhaps
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1 Mr. Curtin just missed that.
2 I'd also respond to Mr. Curtin's suggestion
3 that the limits which were in this Board's order
4 of remand on NOx, .15 and seventy-three
5 eighteen, are somehow inconsistent with an
6 87 percent capacity factor.
7 That's simply not so, because a limit of
8 .15 does not in any way restrict you from
9 operating at any level below that.
10 The limit of .15 simply says that's the
11 highest you can go, as I suggested in my
12 presentation.
13 FPL has always been confident that it could
14 operate the plant at 87 percent capacity factor,
15 and meet the 7318 limit.
16 There was brief mention of the Manatee
17 ordinance, and because some say, boy, that's a
18 stopper, I just wanted to, I guess, acknowledge
19 what you said, Governor. This -- this ordinance
20 is one which was passed long after the
21 application in this case was filed.
22 In fact, when the case was on appeal to the
23 First District Court of Appeal, the County has
24 consistently stated that the ordinance does not,
25 and was not intended to apply to this pending
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1 application. And there's good law to support
2 that.
3 In any case, remember, that ordinance is
4 about sulfur dioxide emissions. And this
5 project is going to significantly reduce
6 emissions of sulfur dioxide.
7 Finally, this -- the idea that -- that this
8 is a single source fuel, and that dependence on
9 Venezuela is a problem. If something should
10 happen -- and Venezuela has been a very
11 dependable supplier of energy to this country --
12 but if something should happen, this plant will
13 simply go back to burning oil.
14 Orimulsion diversifies FPL's, and
15 Florida's, fuel supply.
16 In sum, I've -- would again say, please
17 base your decision on the facts. I think if you
18 do, you have to conclude that this project meets
19 every test. And compared to oil, orimulsion
20 will give us cleaner air, a safer bay, lower
21 electric bills.
22 Please give FPL a chance to provide these
23 benefits to the people and the environment in
24 Florida.
25 Thank you.
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1 MR. STENGLE: That concludes the speakers,
2 Governor.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Do any
4 members of the Cabinet have any questions
5 about -- that they'd like to ask any of the
6 principals or -- or the parties or the staff?
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No, sir.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there
9 discussion?
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a
11 motion, Governor, if there's no discussion.
12 I move the amended draft final order of
13 denial dated June 22nd, 1998, prepared by staff.
14 MR. STENGLE: If I might, Governor --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
16 MR. STENGLE: -- just a moment. There has
17 been a suggestion, just for clarifying, on
18 the -- where the -- if that is -- is the
19 Siting Board's wish, to add the word
20 additional. And the statute requires the order
21 to specify how the project may be brought into
22 compliance.
23 Since the staff recommendation is to adopt
24 the recommended order, and the supplemental
25 recommended order, except as -- except as
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1 specifically overruled, that would just be a
2 clarifying amendment that in order to bring it
3 into compliance, and seek -- and get approval,
4 it would require those as additional conditions,
5 in addition to the conditions you adopt.
6 That's just a clarifying amendment to add
7 that word.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll modify
9 the motion to reflect that, Governor.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- just a quick
13 comment. I want to thank all of the speakers
14 today.
15 These emotional issues sometimes create
16 emotional testimony. But I must say, short of a
17 few brushes with anything beyond the extreme,
18 I think that all of the speakers on both sides
19 of this issue did a very professional job today
20 in stating their case and stating their
21 positions.
22 We've all wrestled with this issue now for
23 years, just like the people in the audience and
24 the people on both sides of this issue.
25 I did want to suggest, because so much has
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1 been read and so much has been said about
2 Florida Power & Light over the years, and as a
3 person who has worked with and used the services
4 of Florida Power & Light over the years,
5 contrary to the picture that I think a few
6 people have attempted to paint regarding
7 Florida Power & Light's record of service, not
8 only to its constituents, but to the
9 environment, as long as it's been in Florida, I
10 am one who doesn't hold to that thought.
11 I have long believed, and have evidenced
12 the fact that Florida Power & Light is
13 attempting to provide efficient, effective, and
14 cost-effective utility service to the people of
15 the state of Florida.
16 And by bringing an alternative fuel source
17 to the fore, I believe they are sincere in the
18 continuation of the attempts to continue to do
19 that.
20 I also appreciate the people who have been,
21 for lack of a better term, the opponents of this
22 issue, those who truly have tried to use fact
23 versus fiction, those who have tried to keep
24 emotionalism pushed in its box so that cooler
25 and calmer heads could prevail at the end of the
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1 day, and that people like us could make the most
2 informed decision humanly possible.
3 I still continue to wrestle with questions
4 and concerns regarding this issue. We've heard
5 about it today. I still continue to beg the
6 question that Venezuela is a tremendous country,
7 and it's providing orimulsion services to
8 countries like Japan, Canada, and others.
9 But it still troubles me deeply that
10 Venezuela, which provides this alternative fuel
11 source to so many others, doesn't employ it
12 itself in its own borders.
13 We've heard about the air quality, the
14 water quality, the spillage. And I must say,
15 after having spent literally, again, years with
16 staff, not only my own, but also the members of
17 staff from my fellow members of the
18 Siting Board, that I cannot reconcile myself to
19 the fact that this is something that we should
20 move forward with today.
21 And I would second the Attorney General's
22 motion for denial.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other discussion?
24 I -- I would like to say just on -- on the
25 one point of Venezuela and the -- the fact that
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1 this is a monopoly, I think that this is a -- an
2 alternative source.
3 But I think it should be noted that in --
4 when we had the oil embargo in the times of
5 which we lost our oil supply at the time from
6 the Mideast, Venezuela's was a faithful
7 supplier, stepped up their production
8 tremendously to supply the United States and the
9 rest of the -- of the free world, in effect, to
10 make sure that the supply was granted.
11 They probably -- any country tries to seek
12 price advantage, and they might well do that.
13 But they certainly were good suppliers of the
14 United States and of the free world. And
15 that -- that should be noted.
16 Is there further discussion?
17 Yes, ma'am.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, this may be
19 the toughest issue that certainly I have
20 contemplated since being on this Cabinet, and --
21 other than maybe clemency. And those are always
22 very, very difficult issues as well.
23 And the vote that I cast today will not be
24 cast lightly, or without hours of thought,
25 contemplation, and prayer.
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1 Tampa Bay, the place most impacted by this
2 proposal, is my home. Most of my friends, my
3 family lives in Tampa Bay.
4 And my thinking on this issue has really
5 boiled down to this: While the facts seem to
6 support this application, the people don't.
7 In fact, it scares them to death.
8 Letters and phone calls to my office have
9 been 100 to 1 against the use of this fuel. And
10 last weekend, I happened to have attended a
11 picnic in the city that I've lived in since I
12 was two years old, in Largo, and I was literally
13 amazed at the level of fear and suspicion that
14 my friends and supporters had for this
15 particular project.
16 I've said in the past that I support an
17 elected Cabinet. And the reason that I am so
18 strongly in support of an elected Cabinet is
19 because it really allows the voice of the
20 people. The voices like we've heard today, like
21 Rita Carlson, to be heard on issues that are
22 very vital to each and every one of us.
23 Well, the people have spoken to me on this
24 issue. And my job is to listen.
25 And I intend to vote for the citizens that
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1 have spoken loud and clear, and against this
2 application.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there other
4 discussion?
5 There has been a motion.
6 Was there a second to the motion?
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
9 Commissioner Brogan.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. The res-- is
11 moved and seconded.
12 Call the role.
13 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
14 Commissioner Brogan.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Support staff
16 recommendation.
17 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Attorney General
18 Butterworth.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes.
20 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
21 Commissioner Crawford.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: No.
23 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
24 Comptroller Milligan.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
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1 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Secretary Mortham.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
3 COURT REPORTER GILBERT:
4 Commissioner Nelson.
5 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
6 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Governor Chiles.
7 Governor Chiles.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Aye.
9 Yes.
10 By your vote, you have passed the staff
11 recommendation.
12 MR. STENGLE: Thank you, Governor.
13 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.)
14 MR. STENGLE: Governor --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
16 MR. STENGLE: I would --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's give a moment for
18 the room to clear, if we can then.
19 MR. STENGLE: The Cabinet has other items
20 on the agenda. Would you please remove to the
21 outside if you have items to talk about.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. We might as
23 well let the room clear a minute.
24 MR. STENGLE: Governor, at this time, let
25 me turn the podium back to Kirby Green --
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir.
2 MR. STENGLE: -- to continue the -- the
3 agenda.
4 MR. GREEN: Governor, we have one other
5 item.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
7 MR. GREEN: One other item on the
8 Siting Board agenda. It's Item 2. It's
9 consideration of the final order recommending
10 that the Siting Board find the Tiger Bay
11 Cogeneration Facility in conformance with
12 existing land use plans, and grant certification
13 to Florida Power Corporation.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I would
15 move the entry of the final order approving
16 certification.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
20 Without objection, the final order is
21 granted.
22 MR. GREEN: Governor, that completes the
23 Siting Board agenda.
24 Do you want to go back to the regular --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION SITING BOARD June 24, 1998 150
1 MR. GREEN: -- order of agenda?
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: We'll go back.
3 (The Department of Environmental Protection
4 Siting Board Agenda was concluded.)
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VOTE ON PAROLE COMMISSION APPOINTMENTS June 24, 1998 151
1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, do
2 you want to do the Parole Commission Appointees
3 if they're --
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. Just -- just one
5 moment.
6 We need -- we need to designate officers
7 for the Parole Commission.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
9 I'll -- I'll nominate for Chair,
10 Commissioner Spooner; and Vice-Chair,
11 Commissioner Henry.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second that
13 nomination, Governor.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
15 seconded.
16 So many as -- so many as favor the motion,
17 signify by saying aye.
18 THE CABINET: Aye.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I didn't
21 realize those commissioners were that popular
22 out there, Governor.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. They're --
24 Mr. Spooner is the -- is the Chairman -- is the
25 Deputy.
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VOTE ON PAROLE COMMISSION APPOINTMENTS June 24, 1998 152
1 (The Vote on the Parole Commission
2 Appointments Agenda was concluded.)
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION June 24, 1998 153
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Now we'll go
2 to Board of Administration.
3 MR. HERNDON: Thank you, Governor, members
4 of the Board.
5 General Milligan has stepped out, so
6 Commissioner Nelson and you are the only two
7 members remaining.
8 The first item is approval of the minutes
9 held on May 2-- of the meeting held on May 28th,
10 1998.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: I move the minutes.
12 TREASURER NELSON: And I'll second it.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection,
14 minutes are adopted.
15 MR. HERNDON: Items 2 through 8 are all
16 fiscal determinations of proposed Florida
17 Housing Finance Corporation Housing Revenue
18 bonds, all new multifamily projects.
19 I believe Commissioner Nelson had a couple
20 of comments or questions, and --
21 TREASURER NELSON: May I, Governor?
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
23 TREASURER NELSON: First of all, I'd like
24 to thank you for the very thorough review and
25 analysis that you've provided in these
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION June 24, 1998 154
1 projects. I just want to confirm for the record
2 that we have implemented the same thorough
3 review process for this fiscal sufficiency
4 review, as that which we had previously when the
5 housing bonds were issued through the Division
6 of Bond Finance.
7 And it would be a consideration of such
8 things as a detailed analysis being performed by
9 credited -- by a qualified credit underwriter
10 who is responsible for determining the amount of
11 debt the project can support. That'd be one.
12 And the corporation has set forth a
13 consistent framework for the underwriters to
14 follow that framework when analyzing commercial
15 real estate loan requests under the
16 corporation's various lending programs. That
17 would be another.
18 And another is that you have controls in
19 place to protect the general public from
20 undertaking the risk they're unaware of by
21 selling only to sophisticated investors in
22 minimum denominations of 250,000, or requiring a
23 traveling investment letter for denominations of
24 $100,000 or more.
25 And another would be -- and the structuring
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION June 24, 1998 155
1 method of the sale of these transactions has
2 been reviewed and recommended by an independent
3 financial advisor.
4 And the last would be that -- to
5 reemphasize my concern -- and I think the
6 collective concern here of the Board of Trustees
7 about selling bonds on a competitive basis.
8 And -- and that -- that wherever possible, it be
9 done on a competitive basis.
10 So, Governor, with those items noted, I
11 would move the approval of Items 2 through 8.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Items 2 through 8 are
13 moved.
14 And I second those.
15 And without objection, they're adopted.
16 MR. HERNDON: Let me just state, too,
17 Commissioner Nelson, before we move on to the
18 last item, that in response to your concerns,
19 and for the record, all of the precautions that
20 you identified, and all of the appropriate due
21 diligence steps that you enumerated are being
22 undertaken with each of these proposed sales.
23 And the process continues essentially as
24 rigorously as it did prior to the corporation
25 being converted from public to private status.
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION June 24, 1998 156
1 So on that score, let me reassure you. And
2 thank you for those cautions.
3 Item number 9 is the investment performance
4 and fund balance -- fund balance analysis for
5 the month of May of 1998.
6 TREASURER NELSON: And I'd move it.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. HERNDON: That completes the agenda.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
12 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
13 was concluded.)
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE June 24, 1998 157
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Division of Bond Finance.
2 MR. WATKINS: Item number 1 is approval of
3 the minutes of the June 9th meeting.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes,
5 Governor.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's --
9 MR. WATKINS: Item number 2 is a resolution
10 authorizing the issuance of up to
11 fifty-five million six hundred and seventy-five
12 thousand of Board of Regents bonds for
13 improvements to the State University System.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. WATKINS: Item number 3 is adoption of
19 a resolution authorizing the issuance up of to
20 8.8 million of Board of Regents parking revenue
21 bonds for a parking facility at the University
22 of Central Florida.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE June 24, 1998 158
1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. WATKINS: Item number 4 is a report of
3 award on the sale of the lottery revenue bonds.
4 And if I could, I'd like to make a couple of
5 very brief comments --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
7 MR. WATKINS: -- about that.
8 This is the -- the first sale of a
9 two-and-a-half billion dollar financing program
10 to provide funding for school construction in
11 order to relieve classroom overcrowding.
12 The sale went extraordinarily well, which
13 is important in a couple of different respects.
14 And that is, there was some perception in the
15 marketplace that the lottery revenue str-- the
16 lottery as a revenue stream for repaying bonds
17 was particularly vulnerable. It's not tried and
18 tested like a normal tax revenue stream.
19 However, we found that not to be the case
20 at all. There was a tremendous demand for
21 investors for these bonds, as evidenced by the
22 fact that we got six bids submitted for the bond
23 issue.
24 And the interest rate on these bonds of
25 approximately 4.84 percent was below normal
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE June 24, 1998 159
1 benchmark indices for market interest rates.
2 That's the first thing.
3 The second thing is that this sets a very
4 positive precedent for the issuance of future
5 installments of the lottery revenue bonds. We
6 expect to be bringing agenda items back to the
7 Governor and Cabinet on a quarterly basis over
8 the next three to four years in connection with
9 implementing this program.
10 And this sets a very positive tone for
11 future installments of the sale of these bonds.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's very good news.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- I would move the
16 item. And also say that is good news. Ben has
17 done a wonderful job with this, and I think
18 secured the feelings of many who believed this
19 was going to be a good, long-term investment.
20 But seeing it come to fruition like this,
21 and seeing this interest rate and the quality of
22 the bond I think finally gives us that
23 assurance.
24 And congratulations on a job well done,
25 Ben.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE June 24, 1998 160
1 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item,
3 Governor.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. WATKINS: That concludes our agenda.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
10 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
11 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION June 24, 1998 161
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
2 Education.
3 MR. PIERSON: Item 1 is a Federal Loan
4 Application Servicing Contract Amendment.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is Educator's Recovery
10 Network Contract.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
17 room.)
18 MR. PIERSON: Item 3 is Educational
19 Facilities Project Tracking and Management
20 System.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MR. PIERSON: Item 4 is Rule 6A-1.09441,
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION June 24, 1998 162
1 Amendment, Requirements for programs and courses
2 which are funded through the Florida Education
3 Finance Program, and for which the student may
4 earn credit toward high school graduation.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, that's approved.
9 MR. PIERSON: Item 5 is a State University,
10 Rule 6C-7.001(4)(c), (d), Amendment.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, that's approved.
15 MR. PIERSON: That concludes the agenda.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
17 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
18 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE June 24, 1998 163
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
2 MR. FUCHS: It's not often I get to say
3 good afternoon.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Uh-hum.
5 MR. FUCHS: Item 1 is a request for
6 approval of the minutes of the May 28th, 1998,
7 meeting.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is request for
13 permission to notice proposed amendments to
14 Rule Chapter 12-10, Florida Administrative Code.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. FUCHS: Item 3 is request for approval
19 and authority to file proposed amendments to
20 Rule Chapter 12B-4.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
25 room.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE June 24, 1998 164
1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Item 3 is approved.
2 MR. FUCHS: Item 4, likewise, is a request
3 for approval and authority to file proposed
4 amendments to Rule Chapter 12A-1.0092.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, Item 4 is approved.
9 MR. FUCHS: And finally, Item 5 is a
10 request for permission to notice proposed
11 amendments to Rule Chapter 12B-5.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, Item 5 is approved.
16 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
18 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
19 concluded.)
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TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND June 24, 1998 165
1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
2 Department of Environmental Protection.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 1, minutes of the May 12th
4 meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, minutes are approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 2, option
10 agreement to acquire 10.21 acres.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, Item 2 is approved.
15 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 3, two option
16 agreements to acquire 665.06 acres.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
20 Without objection, it's approved.
21 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 4,
22 authorization to acquire 50 percent interest,
23 undivided interest, of 2,2-- --577 acres;
24 designation of Recreation and Parks as the
25 managing agency; and confirmation of the policy
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1 statement.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, that's approved.
6 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 5, option
7 agreement to acquire 76.71 acres.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 6, an option
13 agreement to acquire 1,33-- --46 acres.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 7, an option
19 agreement to acquire 75.69 acres.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
23 Without objection, that's approved.
24 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 8, a purchase
25 agreement to acquire 50 percent undivided
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1 interest, and 1,390 acres, designation of the
2 Division of Marine Resources --
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
4 MR. GREEN: -- as the managing -- and
5 confirmation of the --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second, motion.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 9,
10 authorization to acquire undivided 50 percent
11 interest and 18,957 acres; designation of
12 Department of Agriculture, Division of Forestry
13 as the managing agency; and confirmation of
14 management policy.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. GREEN: Item 10, authority to enter
20 into an acquisition agreement with the St. Johns
21 Water Management District.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
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1 MR. GREEN: Item 11, acquisition agreement
2 with the St. Johns Water Management District on
3 Newnan's Lake CARL project.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. GREEN: Item 12, an acquisition
9 agreement with St. Johns Water Management
10 District on Twelve Mile Swamp.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, it's approved.
15 MR. GREEN: Item 13, an option agreement to
16 acquire 139.9 acres.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 MR. GREEN: Item 14, an option agreement to
23 acquire 8.35 acres.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 15, two option agreements
4 to acquire 4 acres.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Item 16, two option -- two
10 purchase agreements to acquire 2.83 acres --
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 MR. GREEN: -- and a waiver of survey.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MR. GREEN: Item 17, purchase agreements to
17 acquire 2,086.47 acres.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 MR. GREEN: Item 18, option agreements to
23 acquire 5,890 acres.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 19, option agreement to
4 acquire 1,890 acres.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, that's approved.
9 MR. GREEN: Item 20, consideration of bids
10 submitted for surplus land sales and acceptance
11 of the bid.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MR. GREEN: Item 21, consideration, a
17 request for conceptual approval for a land
18 exchange with St. Joe Paper.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move --
20 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I have a
21 question on this.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Question.
23 TREASURER NELSON: First of all, it -- it
24 is getting into this area of conceptual
25 approval. And we have run into that big problem
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1 when we were dealing with the Fernandina Beach
2 situation on a dry dock, of which we have later
3 in this agenda what looks to be moving to the
4 competition that's going to occur in the
5 St. Johns River for that Navy dry dock
6 facility.
7 But we got into a big rigmarole because we
8 went to conceptual approval.
9 Can you give us -- can you give me, please,
10 the reason of why we need conceptual approval at
11 this point.
12 MR. GREEN: Treasurer, it's my
13 understanding that for St. Joe Paper, the
14 Division of State Lands, and the Division of
15 Management Services to finalize this deal and
16 sit down and negotiate the final terms of the
17 agreement, that St. Joe Paper wanted some
18 indication that the Board was willing to approve
19 the exchange of lands before -- before they move
20 forward. And that's why we've come and asked
21 for a conceptual approval.
22 TREASURER NELSON: All right. I -- I have
23 seen the maps of the exchange of lands, and I
24 don't have any disagreement with that. I mean,
25 it looks like it's a desirable exchange.
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1 Why -- what is critical to the St. Joe
2 Company that they want that piece just to the
3 north of the satellite office center? Why do
4 they want that back, and are willing to exchange
5 other lands for that?
6 MR. GREEN: I'm going to have to let the
7 Division of Management Services come and speak
8 to that issue.
9 MR. MAHER: Thank you.
10 Phil Maher with the Department of
11 Management Services.
12 Actually, the land exchange way benefits
13 both parties. What it does, it allows us to
14 move to where the residential property is,
15 thereby, creating kind of a partnership between
16 the housing and the business community, and
17 State employees.
18 TREASURER NELSON: You've got to run that
19 by me again, because I didn't understand your
20 answer.
21 MR. MAHER: Okay. If you look at your map,
22 where you see Phase III, that's going to be
23 their downtown development. And so what it does
24 is takes some of our buildings, and places it
25 within their downtown next to their residential.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: All right. My question
2 is: The parcel that we are exchanging that is
3 immediately to the north --
4 MR. MAHER: Right.
5 TREASURER NELSON: -- of the satellite
6 center, what is that to be used for in the
7 overall development plan?
8 MR. MAHER: Okay. The -- the area
9 northeast will be residential. And I think
10 portions --
11 TREASURER NELSON: The portion that the
12 State would be seeding, would be giving up; is
13 that correct?
14 MR. MAHER: Right.
15 TREASURER NELSON: It would be part of the
16 residential.
17 MR. MAHER: Yeah. I think if you look at
18 your map, there's actually two parts, and you
19 see an easement -- the part on the right would
20 definitely be residential. And I think the part
21 on the left will be part of a park. And then
22 further north will be maybe some commercial.
23 TREASURER NELSON: Is this acres here? Is
24 this -- I see a 77.41. Is that acres?
25 MR. MAHER: Yes, sir.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. What is that
2 parcel to be used for that's immediately north.
3 MR. MAHER: Okay. That -- according to
4 what their plan is, as far as their DRI, the
5 part to your right will be residential. The
6 part immediately north will probably be somewhat
7 of a park because it's on a hill.
8 And it's my understanding a little piece
9 further north to your left will be commercial.
10 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Well, I certainly
11 don't have any objection to this, but I want to
12 note for the record my concern about conceptual
13 approvals by virtue of the history that we've
14 had going through the agony that we did with
15 regard to the location of a U.S. Navy dry dock
16 on bottom lands in the Fernandina situation.
17 So that's all I want to say, Governor.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right, sir. Is there
19 a motion?
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second?
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MR. GREEN: Item 22, authorization to
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1 encumber specific parcels of State-owned lands.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, Item 22 is approved.
6 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 23, approval of
7 a memorandum of understanding between the
8 Department of Transportation and the Trustees.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, that's approved.
13 MR. GREEN: Item 24, modification of a
14 five-year sovereignty submerged land lease.
15 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, this is the
16 item that I'm talking about, that it looks like
17 now by us approving this, it would give the
18 bottom land so that this particular corporation
19 then becomes a competitor in a United States
20 Navy RFP for a location of this Navy dry dock
21 facility in the St. Johns River.
22 In the preparation for the Fernandina
23 thing, and then a follow-up to that, I must say
24 that I think that the -- the Navy and the public
25 is going to be well served by this being closer
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1 to the Mayport Naval facility from which these
2 destroyers would then go to this Navy dry dock
3 facility.
4 I have actually inspected this dry dock
5 facility where it has been mothballed by the
6 Navy. And it will be a great addition to
7 northeast Florida.
8 So after a lot of agony, I think the final
9 story on this is that it turns out to be a
10 pretty good story.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, it's approved.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Fernandina thanks you,
16 too, for Mayport.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
18 MR. GREEN: Governor, that completes our
19 agenda.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
21 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
22 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
2 Administration Commission.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
4 approval of the minutes --
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the --
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move --
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- minutes.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- approval.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, recommend
13 approval of Items A. and B. for the Department
14 of Children and Families.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: A. and B., second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded on
18 Item 2 A. and B.
19 Without objection, they're approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend
21 approval of the transfer of general revenue
22 appropriations for the Florida Game and Fresh
23 Water Fish Commission.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, they're approved.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 4, recommend
4 approval of the transfer of general revenue
5 appropriations for the Department of
6 Legal Affairs.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 5, recommend
13 approval to increase trust funded budget by
14 2.1 million dollars to allow for emergency
15 upgrade of the current Unisys mainframe computer
16 in the Department of Management Services.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: Item Number 6, recommend
21 approval of the transfer of general revenue
22 appropriations for the Department of Agriculture
23 and Consumer Services.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 7, recommend
4 approval for the authorization to establish
5 25 positions in excess of the number fixed by
6 the Legislature in the Department of Banking and
7 Finance, the Executive Office of the Governor,
8 and the Department of Management Services, and
9 Administered Funds.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 8, recommend
15 approval for the transfer -- temporary transfer
16 of up to 800 million dollars from trust funds in
17 the State Treasury to the general revenue fund
18 for the Department of Banking and Finance.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 9, recommend
24 approval of Items A. and B. for Department of
25 Children and Families.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move 9 A. and B.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, approval on 9 A. and B.
5 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 10, recommend
6 approval of Items A. and B. for the
7 Department of Environmental Protection.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move 10, A. and B.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, 10 A. and B. are
12 approved.
13 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 11, recommend
14 approval of the transfer of general revenue
15 appropriations for the Department of Health.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, the item is approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 12, recommend
21 approval of Items A. and B. for the Justice
22 Administrative Commission.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move 12 A. and B.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, Item 12 A. and B.,
2 approved.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 13, recommend
4 approval of the transfer of general revenue
5 appropriations for the Department of Management
6 Services.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, the item is approved.
12 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 14, recommend
13 approval for the temporary transfer of
14 50 million dollars from trust funds in the
15 State Treasury to the State Employees Health
16 Insurance Trust Fund in the Division of State
17 Group Insurance.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 15, recommend
23 approval for the temporary transfer of up to
24 174 million dollars for the County Revenue
25 Sharing Trust Fund, and 33 million dollars for
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1 the Municipal Revenue Sharing Trust Fund, from
2 trust funds in the State Treasury in the
3 Department of Revenue.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 16. Recommend
9 authorizing the Secretary to initiate rulemaking
10 proceedings on behalf of the
11 Administration Commission to amend the informal
12 rules of procedure.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, item is approved.
18 DR. BRADLEY: On number 17, Governor, we
19 have some speakers, but let me just give you the
20 item.
21 Recommend authorizing the Secretary to
22 enter the third amended draft final order.
23 There are three individuals who would like to
24 speak.
25 In -- in light of the lateness, we've asked
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1 each of them to limit their time to 2 minutes
2 a piece.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
4 DR. BRADLEY: The first of those is
5 Noreen Davis who represents the
6 Public Service Commission.
7 MS. DAVIS: Good afternoon, Governor and
8 Cabinet. Thank you very much for taking the
9 time.
10 Before I begin, I would like to complement
11 the staff of the Administration Commission for
12 their generosity and their time and patience in
13 working with us on our petition. We started
14 miles apart, and after a lot of hard work, we
15 made a lot of progress.
16 I am here today to ask you to grant the
17 PSC's request for exception from the uniform
18 rule so that we may keep our answer rule.
19 The PSC's answer rule provides for a 20-day
20 period in which one files an answer to a
21 petition. The uniform rule has no time period
22 whatsoever.
23 We believe having a time certain to file an
24 answer to a petition brings certainty into the
25 proceedings, and would greatly enhance the
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1 orderly preparation of a case before the PSC.
2 We believe that this exception should be
3 granted within the criterion permitted by the
4 APA, and that's for the most efficient operation
5 of the agency.
6 Thank you very much.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
8 DR. BRADLEY: The next person who would
9 like to speak is Mr. Jack Shreve of the
10 Public Counsel's Office. He is the
11 Public Counsel --
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there any other
13 speaker on this particular point?
14 DR. BRADLEY: This is all on the same --
15 the same issue.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh, same point.
17 All right.
18 MR. SHREVE: Governor, members of the
19 Cabinet. I appreciate the opportunity to talk
20 to you. I've had a good working relationship,
21 talked to Mr. Williams this morning.
22 We do have a little bit of a concern about
23 one exception that I'm going to speak to that
24 the Public Service Commission has asked for.
25 The Public Service Commission rules right
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1 now allow intervention by any substantially
2 affected party five days prior to a hearing.
3 The rules would require 20 days prior.
4 By an earlier vote just a minute ago, you
5 moved into a rulemaking consideration to amend
6 those to the five days as the
7 Public Service Commission has it at this point.
8 But without the exception to the
9 Public Service Commission on July 1, you would
10 change their -- they would have to go from the
11 five-day intervention rule to the 20-day
12 intervention rule.
13 With a 20-day intervention rule, you can
14 actually have a situation where customers, the
15 primary ones I would be concerned with, would
16 not even know they were in a -- preparing for a
17 hearing or in an affected situation till after
18 it was too late for them to intervene. For good
19 cause shown, they could show intervention, but
20 they would not be assured of being allowed that
21 intervention.
22 That's the only problem we would have with
23 this. And it is the request of the
24 Public Service Commission for this exception.
25 And it's my understanding that they still want
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1 this exception.
2 TREASURER NELSON: And you do want the
3 exception.
4 MR. SHREVE: I do want this. This,
5 I think, would be much better. And the vote
6 that you took a minute ago is initiating
7 rulemaking that would make this change. But in
8 the meantime, you're going to have a gap from
9 July 1 forward until that rule is completed.
10 Thank you very much.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
12 MS. TINKER: Teresa Tinker with the
13 Governor's Office.
14 With respect to the intervenor rule, you
15 did just agree on a previous item to initiate
16 rulemaking proceedings to amend the uniform rule
17 to change the time frame for granting motions to
18 intervene.
19 It's our belief, in working with the
20 Public Service Commission, and the
21 Public Service Commission agreed, that the best
22 position for the Commission to be in at this
23 point is to deny the request for the exception
24 for the intervenor rule, allow the
25 Public Service Commission to operate using the
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1 uniform rule until we can go through the
2 rulemaking process.
3 We should be able to amend the uniform
4 rule -- and that's assuming there are no
5 challenges to it, which we don't anticipate
6 there would be, in about 40 to 45 days.
7 So there would only be a short period of
8 time that they would be operating using a
9 different time frame. And they can grant
10 motions to intervene in the shorter time frame
11 if the party shows good cause.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: So you're saying you
13 would -- you would amend the uniform rules to
14 comply, and really take care of what Mr. Shreve
15 is asking for.
16 MS. TINKER: Yes, sir, that's correct. And
17 that maintains the spirit and the need for the
18 uniform rules. All agencies would be operating
19 in the same time frame when we take that route.
20 DR. BRADLEY: There was one final person
21 who wanted to speak on this issue, and that's
22 Mr. Bill Williams, who is a member of the
23 administrative law section of the Florida Bar.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
25 MR. WILLIAMS: Governor, members of the
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1 Cabinet, there's only one of these exceptions
2 that we still need to deal with, and that is the
3 answer rule.
4 This is an issue that the drafting
5 committee for the uniform rules considered at
6 great length. Answers are so infrequently used
7 in administrative proceedings because of the
8 unique pleading requirements and the way
9 administrative proceedings are initiated, that
10 there was no way we could come up with a -- a
11 logical way to run a time frame for an answer.
12 Even under the PSC's rules, an answer is
13 optional, it's not mandatory as it is in civil
14 proceedings in Circuit Court. It's an optional
15 thing.
16 We didn't think there was a good reason to
17 come up with a time certain. And obviously the
18 reason we wanted to do this is our rule cuts
19 across all State agencies.
20 To the extent that the PSC's rule makes
21 sense from the standpoint of 20 days -- and we
22 don't think it does because of the peculiarities
23 attendant on administrative proceedings -- the
24 best way to approach that, in order to achieve
25 the uniformity that we were after, it seems to
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1 me, is to do what we've done with the intervenor
2 rule, and that is to amend the uniform rule on
3 answers, rather than have agencies come in
4 seeking exceptions piecemeal. Because the whole
5 purpose of this process was to have everybody
6 under the same tent.
7 And we defeat that process if -- if we pick
8 at things, like the answer rule with the
9 20 days. If 20 days is a good idea, it's a good
10 idea for everybody, not just for the PSC.
11 And I would suggest that a petition for
12 rulemaking to amend the uniform rule would be
13 appropriate if the 20 days is that important.
14 We looked at length at that issue, and
15 determined that it didn't make sense in the
16 context of 120 proceedings. And that's the
17 reason we left the answer both optional, and
18 with no time frame, because answers in
19 administrative proceedings usually don't add
20 issues. And that's the reason that we left the
21 20-day answer period out of the uniform rule.
22 If you have any questions, I'd be happy to
23 try to answer them.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Questions.
25 Thank you, sir.
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a
3 question, Governor.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I --
6 Mr. Shreve, you seem to not be happy with what
7 the -- the lady after you stated.
8 Are both of you on the same page or
9 different pages or --
10 MR. SHREVE: I think we're on the same
11 page, but with a different thought process.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
13 MR. SHREVE: There is a movement to change
14 the uniform rule to make it conform to the
15 Public Service Commission rule, which is the
16 five days, which I think is the proper one, and
17 I think everyone agrees that is the proper one
18 now.
19 Without the exception, on July 1, the
20 Public Service Commission is going to have to
21 use the 20 days, instead of what has already
22 been agreed that you need to go to in the
23 five days.
24 Assume -- now, one, I think you can't
25 necessarily assure that the rule is going to
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1 pass. If there is a protracted rulemaking
2 hearing, I don't know how long that's going to
3 be. It wouldn't necessarily be 45 days. I have
4 been in rulemaking that took a great deal of
5 time.
6 So if a utility were to come in and say, we
7 object to this five-day intervention, and would
8 prefer not to allow a customer, who has just
9 heard about the case -- the hearing, then
10 I guess I don't really see a problem with
11 saying, we're going to grant the
12 Public Service Commission an exception, which
13 will conform with what everyone agrees we want
14 to go to in the future. I think that's the big
15 difference.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Could it
17 possibly be done to where we'd approve this now,
18 and then have it --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, that's --
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: --
21 self-destruct after the --
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's, in effect, what
23 would happen. I think if the uniform rule
24 changes, then there's no reason -- then the
25 exception just is nullified. I mean --
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1 MR. SHREVE: That's right.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
3 MR. SHREVE: I think that's right. If it
4 does not change, then you'd have to make a
5 decision.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. All right.
7 MR. SHREVE: But right now, if you go
8 forward with the change in the uniform rule,
9 what the uniform rule that's in existence right
10 now will come in effect July 1, then the
11 Public Service Commission is going to have to
12 change to the 20 days from the five days, and
13 then go back again to the five days later at a
14 time if the rule passes.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
16 MR. SHREVE: We just don't see any reason
17 for it.
18 Thank you.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Do you want
20 to grant Mr. Shreve his exception for -- until
21 the uniform rule is changed?
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And a little
23 bit of clemency, too, I think.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Is there --
25 there's a motion for that?
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
2 TREASURER NELSON: You better --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 TREASURER NELSON: -- get him appointed --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
6 All right. That exception is granted
7 without objection.
8 On the other matter, the staff
9 recommendation I think is that the -- the PSC
10 not get the 20 days, but operate under the same
11 thing that everybody else operates under.
12 Is there a motion for the --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move the staff
14 recommendation, Governor.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a motion for the
16 staff recommendation.
17 Is there a second?
18 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
20 Without objection, that staff
21 recommendation made.
22 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 18, recommend
23 authorizing the Secretary to enter the draft
24 final order.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved.
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
6 concluded.)
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Florida Land
2 and Water Adjudicatory Commission.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
4 approval of the minutes of the meeting held
5 June 9 --
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 DR. BRADLEY: -- 1998.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, recommend
12 deferral of this item to the July --
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move deferral.
14 DR. BRADLEY: -- 28th --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, Item 2 is deferred.
17 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommending
18 authorizing the Secretary to initiate
19 proceedings to repeal Rule 42-2.006 of the
20 Florida Administrative Code.
21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION June 24, 1998 196
1 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
2 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Marine Fisheries
2 Commission.
3 DR. NELSON: Good morning -- or good
4 afternoon, I guess it is.
5 Item A on the agenda would be our minutes
6 for March 20th and 24th.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, minutes are approved.
11 DR. NELSON: And the other item, Item B on
12 the agenda is a rule which would require the use
13 of bycatch reduction devices in otter trawls on
14 the Gulf coast waters of the state of Florida.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 DR. NELSON: Thank you.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
21 Thank you.
22 I assume there's nobody else wanted to
23 speak on that.
24 DR. NELSON: No. I mean, there were --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
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1 DR. NELSON: There were several people who
2 did indicate that they --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, we don't -- we
4 don't want to cut them off. I just --
5 DR. NELSON: No.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- assumed there was
7 none --
8 DR. NELSON: Well then, would -- would you
9 like a little background on the rule, Governor?
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir. You better
11 give it to us. Yes.
12 DR. NELSON: The -- the Commission over
13 seven years ago reviewed the issue of bycatch of
14 finfish and other things in shrimp trawls, and
15 directed staff to set about a process that would
16 achieve a reduction of about -- at least
17 50 percent in the loss -- dead discard loss of
18 finfish taken inadvertently in shrimp trawling
19 operations.
20 Over that period of time, the Commission
21 has sponsored, with Florida State University, as
22 well as the Department of Environmental
23 Protection, extensive research into what that
24 bycatch was, where it was occurring, and
25 research into the use of certain devices which
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1 would eliminate or reduce that bycatch
2 dramatically.
3 The -- these devices have been in use in
4 the east coast of Florida now for two years, and
5 this rule would put them in effect in the
6 west coast.
7 The rule was actually sort of delayed by
8 the passage of that constitutional amendment in
9 1994 because we had been testing these devices
10 in larger nets, and we had to go back and do the
11 whole thing over in the smaller, 500 square foot
12 nets.
13 There are two devices that could be
14 allowed -- could be used under this rule: An
15 extended mesh funnel, and a Florida fish eye
16 excluder. They're both fairly simple and
17 inexpensive devices.
18 The rule actually provides a fast track
19 provision for allowing new devices to be
20 approved should they meet the test criteria, the
21 50 percent reduction standard.
22 We passed this rule in September, there was
23 an administrative rule challenge, and Mr. Hicks
24 was certainly not part of that. That challenge
25 was finally resolved in this -- in our favor,
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1 of course, in May.
2 And we're bringing the rule before you
3 now. We have Mr. Walter Hicks from Niceville
4 has some concerns over the rule. And we have a
5 couple of individuals who would like to speak in
6 support of it.
7 (Commissioner Brogan exited the room.)
8 DR. NELSON: Mr. Hicks appeared at our
9 final public hearing with certain requests that
10 he would like us to accommodate it. Essentially
11 his problem -- or his concern is that the one
12 device, the extended mesh funnel, calls for the
13 insertion of a 4 foot mesh device within the
14 shrimp trawl.
15 He would -- he asked the Commission if we
16 could not allow an exception to the 500 square
17 foot limit on nets in inshore waters to accept
18 that 4 sq-- 4 feet.
19 Frankly, there was no reason biologically
20 or scientifically that that would not be an
21 appropriate thing to do. However, we do have a
22 constitutional amendment that specifies nets may
23 be no more than 500 square feet, and then a very
24 explicit Supreme Court opinion decision that
25 says exactly how those nets could be measured.
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1 So we could not accommodate Mr. Hicks' concern.
2 We have the nets that we're using at the
3 Florida Marine Research Institute are 500 square
4 foot nets. They do incorporate either/or both
5 of these devices.
6 And over the last three years of testing,
7 the devices have achieved somewhere in excess of
8 a 46 percent reduction in finfish, and have had
9 a zero -- average zero loss of shrimp.
10 So I'd be happy to answer any questions.
11 Mr. Hicks and perhaps -- Ted Forsgren,
12 I believe, and Dr. Felicia Coleman would like to
13 briefly address you.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
15 DR. NELSON: Mr. Hicks.
16 MR. HICKS: Yes, sir. As Russell said, our
17 main concern is with the extended mesh funnel,
18 which we have found in testing with
19 Florida State University -- we were involved in
20 that testing -- it works good. We don't have a
21 problem with pulling it.
22 But we're looking at roughly a 14 or
23 15 percent loss when we put it in our nets prior
24 to the time that we put it in the water, just
25 because it's going to cut down that much on the
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1 perimeter of our nets for us to meet with the
2 500 square feet.
3 That's what we would like, is an exemption
4 of those devices. And there's only one device,
5 and that's the Florida fish eye that does not
6 add length, that I'm aware of that has been
7 tested or is in the future going to be tested.
8 I've heard of nothing that's not going to add
9 length to the net.
10 At some point, we're going to have to deal
11 with this, or we're not going to be able to use
12 these devices.
13 I'd also like to point out that all of
14 these devices, the -- both these devices that
15 the Marine Fishery Commission already accepted
16 were developed by fishermen. The fish eye we
17 gave to these folks ten years ago. They've been
18 testing ever since.
19 I have personally pulled that device in
20 times when the bycatch was a problem in larger
21 nets. And we done it with very little shrimp
22 loss.
23 But the nets that we are using now are so
24 short that we're not sure what this thing's
25 going to do.
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1 We do know that testing in the nets larger,
2 as they've pointed out that we did -- we tested
3 a few years ago for Florida State University,
4 every place in Ms. Coleman's study that the
5 Florida fish eye is mentioned, the shrimp loss
6 was also mentioned.
7 Some of these folks have came up with they
8 have increased the shrimp catch, and I don't
9 think it's in his report. But Phil still
10 personally told me that he saw an increase at
11 one point with the Florida fish eye of thirty
12 something percent.
13 We haven't seen that. All we ever see with
14 it is a loss.
15 You have all different kinds of adverse
16 conditions when you start using these things
17 commercially. It's not like going out, as they
18 did in this particular study, in perfect
19 conditions and trying these things.
20 The Florida fish eye, if you get in any
21 kind of grass, jellyfish, all these things are
22 common to us. If we get into this, it disrupts
23 the water flow through the bag of the net.
24 You'll pick up, and you won't have anything but
25 beer cans in there. Anything that swims will go
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1 out of that fish eye, I promise you. It will
2 render that net completely useless.
3 The times of the year that we have
4 jellyfish and this grass problem in the
5 Choctawhatchee Bay area anyway is the summer
6 months when we catch most of our shrimp.
7 But that's basically what we would like for
8 you to do, is to exempt these devices. The
9 reason we come to you is because you have made
10 exceptions in the constitutional amendment at
11 one point when you said two nets can be hooked
12 together. At one point, you exempted this.
13 If we don't get some kind of exemption, I
14 don't know where you're going to get anymore
15 devices from. I mean, if I had a device at this
16 moment that would decrease bycatch by
17 100 percent, and even increase my shrimp catch
18 somewhat, it would be ridiculous for me to give
19 it to you if it was going to add 5 or 6 feet of
20 length to my net. You're not giving fishermen
21 any incentive.
22 And I don't know if you got the fax that I
23 sent you yesterday or not with our proposals on
24 it. I hope you did. I tried to describe these
25 devices and lump them together as conservation
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1 devices.
2 And our definition in those proposals of
3 conservation devices is exactly the same as the
4 constitutional amendment. Exactly the same
5 definition that these folks who supported the
6 amendment claimed the amendment was to do, to
7 protect these different species of fish and what
8 have you.
9 I don't see how they can have a problem
10 with exempting a device that's going to do
11 exactly what their amendment called for.
12 And I feel like if they do, the true
13 definition of their amendment never applied to
14 begin with.
15 Thank you very much.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
17 MR. FORSGREN: Governor, members of the
18 Cabinet, my name is Ted Forsgren. We're here
19 today to support this rule.
20 This is a problem that the industry and
21 fishery managers have been grappling with for
22 many years, because shrimp trawls inadvertently
23 catch and kill millions upon millions of pounds
24 of finfish.
25 These devices have been tested, the
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1 saltwater recreational fishing license money, a
2 couple hundred thousand dollars, has been used,
3 and we've urged that to be used to help devise
4 these instruments that can be put in the net to
5 save fish.
6 The -- the concern that we have about
7 Mr. Hicks's request -- and, you know, Mr. Hicks
8 is a -- has been coming to the Commission
9 meetings and done the different things, and
10 worked with the Commission.
11 But the constitution says 500 square feet
12 of mesh area. And it doesn't come up with any
13 exceptions. The Supreme Court has come up with
14 how to do it. And our concern is that if we
15 open up loopholes, that there's potential for --
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: You know, this is a --
17 this concerns me a little bit.
18 MR. FORSGREN: Yes, sir.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: I don't know whether you
20 can do this or not. But on the one hand, if
21 you're saying -- from what I understood, there's
22 no reason biologically; there's no reason,
23 you know, that you're trying to do as far as
24 protecting species or anything else, on doing
25 this.
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1 And in an effort to promote bycatch --
2 I mean, to prevent bycatch, we're putting these
3 devices on, and we're going to put these devices
4 on, and every time we put one on, we're cutting
5 the amount of sp-- of the 500, and then we're
6 saying we're not going to grant any exception to
7 that.
8 It seems like to me, that's just not a
9 fair -- that's not a fair game. Now, I don't
10 know whether it's possible to do this, but it
11 seems like to me it would certainly make sense.
12 We do want to promote devices like this --
13 MR. FORSGREN: Yes, sir.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- do we not?
15 MR. FORSGREN: Yes, sir. And --
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Do we want -- and further
17 devices. But every time we put one on -- but
18 what if we put one on that takes 20 feet out of
19 a net?
20 You know, are we going to keep doing that?
21 Then -- then I think you've made a mockery of
22 saying that we're going to have 500 feet.
23 I think you could argue that that's going
24 against what the people supported, what the
25 people voted for.
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1 You know, it's one thing we got something
2 to support the species, that we need to do.
3 It's another thing, I think, when you're trying
4 to find out, you know, work with people, and --
5 and allow something that just makes every kind
6 of common sense in the world.
7 I -- I just have a hard time finding that
8 the Court -- the Supreme Court on the
9 constitutionality is going to say that we can't
10 grant an exception that would -- that stays
11 within the clear intent of what the amendment is
12 about.
13 MR. FORSGREN: And I think I need to
14 explain a little bit more my comment. Because I
15 didn't want to engender that kind of reaction
16 from you.
17 Because our concern is that the
18 constitutional amendment was designed to limit
19 the size of nets in inshore waters, and that was
20 the 500 square feet. So that implementation of
21 that measure has created a specific size of a
22 shrimp trawl, which relates to the size of the
23 mouth and the length of the net.
24 The Supreme Court went through, and there
25 was a Turtle Excluder Device, a conservation
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1 device, in the trawl that was -- that was seen
2 and ruled on by the Supreme Court.
3 If you allow additional lengths to be put
4 in there, the industry will come up with a
5 15 foot long finfish excluder that will then
6 allow them to expand the mouth of the net, and
7 you will have essentially made a mockery of the
8 reduction in terms of the net ban. You're right
9 back to the same size that they were at.
10 And I would agree with you that that could
11 be a severe problem, were it not for the fact
12 that this other device, the fish eye, it's a $25
13 device. It will dramatically reduce hundreds of
14 millions of fish will be saved every year, and
15 it won't increase the length of the net.
16 And the Commission's got a fast track
17 procedure so that if other ones come up that
18 work better with the shrimpers, they can move
19 that through quickly.
20 So I think we've been involved with this
21 for five years, there's devices that'll work,
22 it'll save fish, and I think it will be
23 consistent with the intent of the amendment.
24 So --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, it --
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1 MR. FORSGREN: I understand.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- it seems to me that we
3 ought -- you ought to be able to craft an
4 exception that doesn't open the door for the
5 horror that you're parading to us. If you
6 can't, you know, then that's maybe one thing.
7 But it just seems to me, you know, one --
8 one of the problems, when you lock something
9 into the constitution -- which it literally
10 should have been a statute to start with.
11 Any -- any legal construction would say you
12 shouldn't have, you know, write in that
13 specificity to the constitution. That's not
14 what a constitution's for. But that's there.
15 And that's been adopted.
16 But it seems like to me that you ought to
17 try to just make routine common sense out of
18 that. And especially -- you know, I'm not
19 saying you want to add 15 feet, I don't think
20 you want to do that.
21 And -- and -- but I don't think granting
22 this exception necessarily opens the door to
23 that, especially if you craft it in such a way.
24 MR. FORSGREN: Yes. I understand the
25 feeling.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
2 DR. NELSON: Dr. Coleman was here to speak
3 or to answer any of your questions on sort of
4 the science behind this.
5 I don't -- she doesn't feel compelled to
6 speak if you --
7 The issue of the exception is something
8 that we looked at closely. I agree with you,
9 Governor, that sometimes well intended actions,
10 and perhaps those are constitutional unintended
11 consequences. But --
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: I want to ask that we
13 defer this for a meeting, and let's let some
14 lawyers look at this and determine whether we
15 think that an exception can be crafted this way
16 that doesn't -- doesn't blatantly violate the
17 constitution.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move
19 deferral.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a motion to
21 defer.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Seconded.
24 Without objection, it's deferred.
25
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1 (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
2 concluded.)
3 *
4 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
5 1:44 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 212 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 2ND day of JULY, 1998.
17
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19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR 100 Salem Court 20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301 850/878-2221 21
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