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         5                       T H E     C A B I N E T

         6                 S T A T E    O F     F L O R I D A

                              STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
        10                      DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                             DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
        11                      STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
        13      _________________________________________________________


        15               The above agencies came to be heard before THE 
                FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Chiles presiding, in the 
        16      Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, 
                Florida, on Tuesday, August 12, 1997, commencing at 
        17      approximately 9:50 a.m.

        18                            Reported by:

        19                           DEBRA R. KRICK
                                     Court Reporter
        20                      Notary Public in and for
                              the State of Florida at Large
        21      ________________________________________________________

                                    PREMIER REPORTING
        23                  6753 THOMASVILLE ROAD, SUITE 108
                                 TALLAHASSEE, FL  32312
        24                            904-894-0828



         1                    Representing the Florida Cabinet:


         3                    LAWTON CHILES

         4                    Governor


         6                    BOB CRAWFORD

         7                    Commissioner of Agriculture


         9                    BOB MILLIGAN

        10                    Comptroller


        12                    SANDRA B. MORTHAM

        13                    Secretary of State


        15                    BOB BUTTERWORTH

        16                    Attorney General


        18                    BILL NELSON

        19                    Treasurer


        21                    FRANK T. BROGAN

        22                    Commissioner of Education





         1                              I N D E X


         3      (Presented by Tom Herndon
                         Executive Director)
                ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
                1                       Approved                  11
         6      2                       Approved                  11
                3                       Approved                  12




















                (Presented by Tin Tinsley)
                ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
         4      1                       Approved                  13
                2                       Approved                  13
         5      3                       Approved                  13
                4                       Approved                  14     
         6      5                       Approved                  14
                6                       Approved                  14
         7      7                       Approved                  15
                8                       Approved                  15
         8      9                       Approved                  16
                10                      Approved                  16



















         2      (Presented by Carlos Rainwater)

         3      ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
                1                       Approved                  20























                (Presented by Robert L. Bedford)
                ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
         4      1                       Approved                  21
                2                       Approved                  21
         5      3                       Approved                  22
                4                       Approved                  23
         6      5                       Approved                  26
                6                       Approved                  26
         7      7                       Approved                  29
                8                       Withdrawn                 29



















                (Presented by Robert Bradley)
                ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
         4      1                       Approved                  32
                2                       Approved                  32
         5      3                       Approved                  32
                4                       Approved                  33
         6      5                       Approved                  33
                6                       Approved                  33
         7      7                       Withdrawn                 34




















                (Presented by Robert Bradley)
                ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
         4      1                       Approved                  35
                2                       Approved                  35























         2      (Presented by Secretary Virginia Wetherell)

         3      ITEM                    ACTION                   PAGE
                1                       Approved                  36
         4      2                       Approved                  36
                3                       Approved                  36
         5      4                       Approved                  37
                5                       Approved                  37
         6      6                       Approved                  37
                7                       Approved                  37
         7      8                       Approved                  38
                9                       Approved                  38
         8      10                      Approved                  38
                11                      Approved                  38
         9      12                      Approved                  39
                13                      Approved                  39
        10      14                      Approved                  39
                15                      Approved                  39
        11      16                      Approved                 125
                17                      Approved                 126
        12      18                      Approved                 126















         1                        P R O C E E D I N G S

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good morning.  Our invocation 

         3          this morning will be led by Pastor Michael Ellis of 

         4          the Church of the Holy Spirit, and that will be 

         5          followed by the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. 

         6               (Invocation by Pastor Michael Ellis of the 

         7          Church of the Holy Spirit, and Pledge of Allegiance 

         8          were held.)

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I want to recognize 

        10          Commissioner Brogan to introduce school-related 

        11          employee of the year. 

        12               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, Governor and 

        13          members of the Cabinet.  

        14               (Whereupon, school-related employees were 

        15          recognized by the Governor and Cabinet.)

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.  Congratulations.  











         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of 

         2          Administration.  

         3               MR. HERNDON:  Governor and members of the board, 

         4          item number one, the approval of the minutes of the 

         5          meeting held on June 26th, 1997.  

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will move it.  

         7               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         9          objection, it's approved.

        10               MR. HERNDON:  Item number two is the Department 

        11          of Chair of the Florida Commission on Hurricane Loss 

        12          Projection Methodology for 1997-98.  The recommended 

        13          appointee is Ms. Elsie Crowell, insurance 

        14          commissioner and consumer advocate.

        15               MR. MILLER:  I move it. 

        16               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I second it.

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        18          objection, it's approved.  

        19               MR. HERNDON:  Item number three is the report 

        20          submitted by the executive director of the State 

        21          Board of Performance for the months of May and June 

        22          of 1997. 

        23               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it. 

        24               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        25               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 


         1          objection, that's approved. 

         2               MR. HERNDON:  That completes the agenda.

         3               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.  
























         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Bond finance.  

         2               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number one is approval of 

         3          minutes of the June 26th meeting. 

         4               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Moved.

         5               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         7          objection, approved. 

         8               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number two is adoption of a 

         9          resolution authorizing redemption and fees of a 

        10          pollution control bond and State-issued for the City 

        11          of Jacksonville. 

        12               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the item.  

        13               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        14               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        15          objection, it's approved. 

        16               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number three, report of award 

        17          for competitive sale of $2,880,000 for parking 

        18          revenue bonds from Florida A & M University.

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it. 

        20               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        22          objection, it's approved.  

        23               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number four, report of 

        24          award for competitive sale of $55,230,000 in 

        25          Alligator Alley revenue bonds.


         1               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.

         2               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second it.

         3               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         4          objection, it's approved.  

         5               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number five, report of award 

         6          for competitive sale of $200 million of right-of-way 

         7          bonds.

         8               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the item.

         9               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        11          objection, it's approved.  

        12               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number six, report of award 

        13          for competitive sale of $45,685,000 university system 

        14          improvement revenue refunding bond.

        15               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the item. 

        16               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I second, and note 

        17          that the extraordinary low interest cost rate on that 

        18          particular housing project item; albeit it is a 

        19          long-term bond, I understand that, but that's 

        20          directly reflected in the competitive aspects of it.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  What was the rate? 

        22               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  4.075. 

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very good. 

        24               Moved and seconded; without objection, it's 

        25          approved. 


         1               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number seven is report of 

         2          award for a competitive sale of $28,725,000, Florida 

         3          Housing Finance Agency Homeowner mortgage revenue 

         4          bonds.  I believe that's the issue the General is 

         5          speaking to.

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I move that item. 

         7               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You are right.  Thank 

         8          you.

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        10          objection, it's approved? 

        11               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number eight, report of award 

        12          is a  competitive sale of $14,380,000, Florida 

        13          Housing Finance Agency housing revenue bonds.

        14               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.  

        15               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        17          objection, it's approved. 

        18               MR. TINSLEY:  Item number nine, report of award 

        19          for Competitive sale of $9,350,000 Florida Housing 

        20          Finance Agency housing revenue bonds.

        21               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the item.

        22               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I second.

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Approved and seconded without 

        24          objection -- 

        25               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Let me correct myself. Of 


         1          course, that was item seven I was referring to, but 

         2          it is also useful to know eight and nine, which are 

         3          also Housing Finance Agency bonds that were 

         4          competing, and that -- their rates, and you will 

         5          notice the rates on item 10 where we negotiated. 

         6               MR. TINSLEY:  Yes, sir.  And items 10A through D 

         7          --

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't think we approved 

         9          nine.  Let's -- moved and seconded; without 

        10          objection, nine is to be approved. 

        11               MR. TINSLEY:  And item number 10A through D, is 

        12          report of awards for housing revenue bonds done on a 

        13          negotiated sale basis.

        14               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will move items 10A 

        15          through D with the same note that you can see the 

        16          significant difference between negotiated and 

        17          competitive.  So I hope we will continue down the 

        18          competitive path on as many of those issues as we 

        19          can.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  That's moved and --

        21               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        22               GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- Seconded without objection, 

        23          now, that's approved.  

        24               I am delighted to see when we think how long it 

        25          took us to get one done, it looks like maybe that it 


         1          is like our regular bonding thing now that we have 

         2          had a little breakthrough, and the Board must be 

         3          looking at them differently and certainly the market 

         4          seems to be adopting them pretty good.

         5               MR. TINSLEY:  Yes, sir.  We have taken this -- 

         6          had the W.R. Lazar (ph), the Division's financial 

         7          adviser work with the agency to try to identify those 

         8          issues that makes sense to be sold on a competitive 

         9          basis.  As a result, we have had three of them on 

        10          basis.

        11               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Terrific.  Thank you very 

        12          much, and thank the Board for us, too. 

        13               MR. DANEK:  Yes, sir.














         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Veterans' Affairs. 

         2               MR. RAINWATER:  Good morning, Governor Chiles. 

         3          Good morning, Cabinet.  

         4               This morning, we are appearing before you to 

         5          request -- recommend the approval of the site 

         6          selection criteria for the third Florida State 

         7          veterans nursing home facility.  As you know, we have 

         8          our facility in Daytona Beach, which has been 

         9          operational now for four years, and we have underwent 

        10          the construction of the Pasco County Veterans Nursing 

        11          Home, which you approved last year. 

        12               Basically, the federal government funds 65 

        13          percent of the construction cost of these state 

        14          veterans nursing homes, and pays a per diem rate of 

        15          -- which represents about $42 per day of -- which 

        16          represents 42 percent of the daily cost of care for 

        17          veteran residents of those nursing homes.  This 

        18          represents a significant savings to the State in the 

        19          care of these aging infirmed veterans. 

        20               In compiling the criteria, we have had many 

        21          inputs, including a public hearing on May 20th in 

        22          Daytona Beach; and there are some differences in the 

        23          criteria we are recommending for approval today as 

        24          opposed to the past criteria.  Those differences are, 

        25          we are providing for a 12-acre site to accommodate 


         1          some of the environmental interests over and above 

         2          the sites that were recommended before.  So it will 

         3          be 12 acres of donated land.  

         4               We are requiring a letter of intent from all 

         5          jurisdictions which intend to apply for the site of 

         6          the nursing home.  Last time, we received some 

         7          concern that some jurisdictions did not realize that 

         8          they were up against some fairly heavy hitters in the 

         9          process; and they informed us if they had known what 

        10          the competition was, they might not have expended the 

        11          resources to go through the full presentation 

        12          process.  So with this letter of intent process, we 

        13          are attempting to eliminate that concern. 

        14               Weight will be given to the number of available 

        15          beds for veterans in the various jurisdictions that 

        16          intend to apply.  That is, one factor will be whether 

        17          or not there are enough existing beds for veterans 

        18          under the VA's nursing home program in those areas 

        19          that intend to apply. 

        20               We have revised the weighting of the distance 

        21          from the proposed site to the closest VA medical 

        22          facility, that will be given considerable weight. And 

        23          we have taken all the subjectivity out of that 

        24          process and made it a totally objective process.  

        25               The intent here was to take subjectivity and 


         1          judgment out of the site selection process, be 

         2          totally objective with the view toward giving the 

         3          best and most efficient, the best care to this aging 

         4          veterans population.  

         5               This morning, we ask your approval of the site 

         6          selection criteria which we have placed before you.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Earl, as I understand it, you 

         8          have held a lot of hearings on this, and obviously 

         9          you have taken a lot of fire out of this.  I don't 

        10          see along the agenda the people that want to object 

        11          or speak to it.  Thank you for going through that 

        12          process.  

        13               On the face of it, it looks like you have got a 

        14          very good process.  We want to hear more about it 

        15          later, but thank you for taking all of that time and 

        16          listening to all the people that you have done. 

        17               MR. RAINWATER:  Thank you.

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a question?  

        19               Is there a motion?  

        20               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

        21               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        22               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        23          objection, it's approved.  

        24               MR. RAINWATER:  Thank you.



         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of Education.  

         2               MR. BEDFORD:  Governor Chiles, members of the 

         3          State Board of Education, good morning.  

         4               Item one is the minutes of the meetings held May 

         5          13th, May 28th, June 12th and June 26th.  The June 

         6          12th meeting, the aides received a corrected copy 

         7          today with some technical amendments made to it, and 

         8          I believe you have a copy up there.  

         9               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I move the minutes as 

        10          corrected.  

        11               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        12               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        13          objection, it's approved. 

        14               MR. BEDFORD:  Item two, amendment of the 

        15          assignment of the lease between the State Board of 

        16          Education and South Florida Public Telecommunications 

        17          Inc., WXEL. 

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move for approval.

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        21          objection, it's approved. 

        22               MR. BEDFORD:  Item -- 

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't know.  I think maybe 

        24          we ought to hear from her.  No one should have to 

        25          come all the way up here and not have a chance to 


         1          enlighten our day.

         2               MS. LAUGHLIN:  I have got to get my money's 

         3          worth. 

         4               Governor and members of the Cabinet, first of 

         5          all, I accept this as a very sacred trust.  It is 

         6          something I do not take lightly, and I make the 

         7          commitment to work in collaboration with the other 

         8          institutions in that area to serve the people the 

         9          best way that we possibly can.  

        10               For me, it has not been a win or lose; it's been 

        11          an effort to try to make it a win/win, and I think 

        12          that this is what is going to happen.  

        13               So thank you very much.

        14               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.  

        15               MR. BEDFORD:  Item three, the FIRN Information 

        16          System of Florida Incorporated contract. 

        17               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second. 

        19               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        20          objection, that's approved.  

        21               MR. BEDFORD:  Item four, FIRN Encyclopedia 

        22          Burtanica contract.

        23               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

        24               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        25               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 


         1          objection, it's approved. 

         2               MR. BEDFORD:  Item five, Best Practices 

         3          Interactive CD-ROM contract for the science, reading 

         4          and social studies materials.  We have a short 

         5          presentation for you at the request of aides.  

         6               Pete Linquy (ph) is going to come up, and we 

         7          will present to you the mathematics CD and 

         8          demonstrate for you a couple of the items that 

         9          students would be working with in their schools.  You 

        10          will readily see that this ties directly to the 

        11          Sunshine State standards, and you will see that this 

        12          is quite an assistance to teachers in the classroom.  

        13               I was fortunate enough to get one of the very 

        14          first ones when they first came out and took them 

        15          home, and we are not going to demonstrate the problem 

        16          I had trouble with, because -- but it's -- I believe 

        17          you have a copy, I believe the aides have a copy, and 

        18          it's something worth looking at for you.  

        19               Pete, if you want to say a few words.  

        20               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Governor, while 

        21          they are setting up, I would just like to also 

        22          mention that they have done a great job 

        23          collaboratively with the public libraries and made 

        24          these CD-ROMs available in the libraries as well, so 

        25          basically everyone has an opportunity, either at 


         1          school or in the public library system.  

         2               MR. LINQUY:  Good morning.  I just wanted to let 

         3          you know we are going to show you the math CD, which 

         4          is part of the series that we are hoping to develop 

         5          coming before you today with science, social studies 

         6          and reading.  These -- the ones we are showing you 

         7          today, mathematics, has 25 mathematics activities 

         8          that reference the benchmarks for mathematics on the 

         9          Sunshine State standards.  The CD also has a database 

        10          of information and other resources available to 

        11          teachers in teaching mathematics, and the CD runs on 

        12          both on MacIntosh and Windows formats.  It has been 

        13          disseminated free throughout the public education 

        14          system in Florida.  

        15               I wanted to give you a brief demo of the 

        16          product.  This is Debra James from the Office of 

        17          Education Technology.  Debra is one of the people 

        18          intimately involved in the development of this 

        19          product.  

        20               MS. JAMES:  Good morning.  

        21               (Demonstration of CD-ROM for the Cabinet.)

        22               MS. JAMES:  Thank you.  

        23               MR. BEDFORD:  Thank you.  

        24               COMMISSIONER  BROGAN:  The beauty of this, as 

        25          you can probably see, is not only the fact that it's 


         1          interactive, but it's aligned completely to the 

         2          Sunshine State standards.  We have also developed -- 

         3          and that's been disseminated over a year ago, such as 

         4          the CD on the Florida Writes Test, and that got such 

         5          an overwhelming response, that we have now completed 

         6          that with mathematics. 

         7               And as you can see the contract before you today 

         8          is to develop an interactive video such as this 

         9          aligned with these new standards in science, reading 

        10          and social studies.  The Litmus Test was the Florida 

        11          Writes CD, and this one has been disseminated to a 

        12          degree to get feedback.  And also we use feedback 

        13          from teachers in its production.  And the reaction 

        14          thus far has been very positive.  People are looking 

        15          for ways to find new information to develop the 

        16          standards.  

        17               We also have a program out there called 

        18          Innertech 2,000, which now is posted on the Internet 

        19          and allows teachers to bring up any of the Sunshine 

        20          State Standards and gives them a host of lesson 

        21          planning opportunities, assessment of practices that 

        22          they can use. 

        23               The idea is to continue to try to drive new 

        24          technology, not just in the teaching, learning, but 

        25          into the preparation for teaching and learning.  And 


         1          we hope that these CD's will go a long way in that 

         2          regard. 

         3               MR. BEDFORD:  They have been disseminated to all 

         4          schools.  Each school has two copies.  Each district 

         5          has eight copies.  Secretary Mortham told you the 

         6          libraries have received them.  The colleges of 

         7          education have received them, as well as community 

         8          colleges.  

         9               We recommend approval.

        10               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will move approval.

        11               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        12               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        13          objection, it's approved.  

        14               Very good demonstration.  Thank you.  

        15               MR. BEDFORD:  Thank you.  

        16               Item six, Reading Recovery Program guidelines.

        17               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        19               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        20          objection, it's approved.  

        21               I note that my understanding is that we have -- 

        22          I was moaning the small amount of money that we got 

        23          in this, and then somebody told me that we have less 

        24          applications right now than we have money. 

        25               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Not surprising, though.  I 


         1          think once people become more and more aware of the 

         2          fact, Governor, that these dollars are available, 

         3          they will ask for them.  And in our upcoming budget, 

         4          we are going to request even more money for the 

         5          programs like this.

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Okay.  You know, I -- if 

         7          anybody has an opportunity to visit one of those 

         8          programs, I have been to a couple of them, and I have 

         9          seen nothing that gives me more heart that you can 

        10          pick up children that are not, you know, 

        11          comprehending or not reading at the level, and then 

        12          about six months time that one-on-one thing that you 

        13          can actually bring them up to where they are at or 

        14          above where the average would be. 

        15               To me, this is the best kind of dropout money 

        16          that we could ever spend, taking that child in the 

        17          first grade or just at that time and bringing them up 

        18          to where they can be properly.

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir.  And with the 

        20          idea now that we have got to get out of the business 

        21          of using social promotion on a large-scale basis and 

        22          that children have got to be able to read and write 

        23          and calculate mathematically with their peers to move 

        24          on successfully, I think the idea of giving people 

        25          some help in that regard, and helping children who 


         1          have been below for so long reach that level of peer 

         2          skill is long overdue.

         3               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I have never seen a program 

         4          that turned on teachers the way this did, too.  The 

         5          teachers that I was talking to, some of them said 

         6          they have been in the business 25 years, never felt 

         7          excited about being able to go to work in the morning 

         8          to know that they could spend one-on-one, a little 

         9          time with a child and see, you know -- the 

        10          methodology they use is totally different from what 

        11          we are used to using.  The different ways that they 

        12          bring that vocabulary to the child, the different 

        13          techniques that they use.  But, boy, it's amazing 

        14          what it does.  

        15               Thank you.  

        16               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I don't know if I did, but 

        17          I will move the item if I had not.  

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        19               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        20          objection, it's approved. 

        21               MR. BEDFORD:  Item seven is an amendment to rule 

        22          6A-1.09412, course requirements grade 6 through 12, 

        23          basic and adult secondary program.

        24               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        25               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         2          objection, it's approved. 

         3               MR. BEDFORD:  Item eight, we ask permission --

         4               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I probably -- I am sorry, 

         5          Bob.  I probably should mention that that particular 

         6          item also aligns the course descriptors to the 

         7          Sunshine State Standards to make certain that when 

         8          the middle school and high school courses are 

         9          selected for credit generation, that they are aligned 

        10          and they are descriptors for the standard. 

        11               MR. BEDFORD:  Item eight, we are asking 

        12          permission to withdraw.

        13               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move withdrawal.

        14               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        15               GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's withdrawn.  

        16               MR. BEDFORD:  Item nine, amendment to rule 

        17          6A-4.0244, specialization requirements for the 

        18          endorsement in English to speakers of other languages 

        19          academic class.

        20               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        22          objection, it's approved.  

        23               We approved item seven? 

        24               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  We did. 

        25               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir.  


         1               MR. BEDFORD:  Item 10, repeal of rules.

         2               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         3               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         4               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         5          objection, it's approved.  

         6               MR. BEDFORD:  Item 11, Valencia Community 

         7          College request for establishment of a special 

         8          purpose center in Winter Park, Florida.

         9               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        10               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        11               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        12          objection, it's approved. 

        13               MR. BEDFORD:  Item 12 is an amendment, rule 

        14          6C-7.001, tuition, fee schedule and percentage of 

        15          cost.  This was originally passed as an emergency 

        16          rule.  This is putting it in the rule.

        17               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        19          objection, it's approved.  

        20               MR. BEDFORD:  Item 13, appointment to the Board 

        21          of Trustees, Central Florida Community College, 

        22          Cynthia E. Donor (ph), Gloria Ann M. Mann, Cynthia A. 

        23          Hall to May 31st, 2001.

        24               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        25               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         2          objection, it's approved. 

         3               MR. BEDFORD:  Item 14, appointment to the 

         4          District Board of Trustees of the Seminole Community 

         5          College, Edward L. Blackshear, May 31, 1999.

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         7               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         9          objection, it's approved. 

        10               MR. BEDFORD:  That concludes the business.  

        11               Thank you. 
















         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Administration Commission.  

         2               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number one, recommend 

         3          approval of the minutes for the meeting held June 

         4          26th, 1997.

         5               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         8          objection, it's approved.  

         9               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number two, recommend 

        10          approval of the transfer of general revenue 

        11          appropriations in the Department of Children and 

        12          Family.

        13               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval. 

        14               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        15               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        16          objection, it's approved.  

        17               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number three, recommend 

        18          approval of the transfer of general revenue 

        19          appropriations in the Department of Elder Affairs.

        20               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the item.  

        21               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        22               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        23          objection, it's approved.  

        24               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number four, recommend 

        25          approval for the transfer of general revenue 


         1          appropriations for the Department of Health.

         2               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         3               COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.

         4               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         5          objection, it's approved.  

         6               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number five, recommend 

         7          approval of the transfer of general revenue 

         8          appropriations under item A and authorization for 

         9          positions in excess under item B in the Agency for 

        10          Health Care Administration.

        11               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

        12               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        13               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        14          objection, it's approved.

        15               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number six, recommend 

        16          approval of the temporary transfer of monies from 

        17          trust funds in the State Treasury to the Department 

        18          of Environmental Protection.

        19               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Moved.  

        20               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second. 

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        22          objection, it's approved. 

        23               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number seven, we request 

        24          withdrawal of this item.

        25               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move withdrawal.


         1               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will second that.

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         3          objection, it's been withdrawn. 
























         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Florida Land and Water 

         2          Adjudication Commission.

         3               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number one requests approval 

         4          of the minutes of the June 26th, 1997 Commission 

         5          meeting.   

         6               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         8          objection, it's approved.

         9               MR. BRADLEY:  Item number two is a request 

        10          acceptance of the report on the Save Our Everglades 

        11          Program.   Estes Whitfield is here if there are any 

        12          questions.

        13               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move acceptance of 

        14          the report.

        15               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --

        16               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded; without 

        18          objection, it's approved.  

        19               Thank you, sir. 








         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Trustees. 

         2               MS. WETHERELL:  Item one are minutes.

         3               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         4               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded --

         5               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- without objection, it's 

         7          approved.

         8               MS. WETHERELL:  Item two, an option agreement 

         9          for Coupon Bight CARL project.

        10               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        11               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        12               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        13          objection, it's approved.  

        14               MS. WETHERELL:  Item three, two purchase 

        15          agreements of the Coupon Bight CARL project.      

        16               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval. 

        17               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        19          objections, it's approved.

        20               MS. WETHERELL:  Item four, two option agreements 

        21          for a Dade County Archipelago CARL project.  

        22               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

        23               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second with a request that 

        24          she say Archipelago again.

        25               MS. WETHERELL:  Archipelago.  I told somebody on 


         1          staff you would do that. 

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         3          objection, it's approved.

         4               MS. WETHERELL:  Item five, an option agreement 

         5          for Archie Carr Turtle Refuge --  

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Now, I have got you, don't 

         7          I?  

         8               MS. WETHERELL:  You got me.

         9               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

        10               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        11               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        12          objection, it's approved.

        13               MS. WETHERELL:  Item six, an option agreement 

        14          for the Florida Keys Ecosystem CARL project.

        15               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        17          objection, it's approved.

        18               MS. WETHERELL:  Item seven, three option 

        19          agreements for the Florida Keys Ecosystem CARL 

        20          project.

        21               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        22               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        24          objection, it's approved. 

        25               MS. WETHERELL:  Item eight, an option agreement 


         1          for the Wekiva-Ocala Greenway CARL project.

         2               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         3               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         4          objection, it's approved.

         5               MS. WETHERELL:  Item nine, three option 

         6          agreements for the Rookery Bay CARL project.  

         7               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         8               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        10          objection, it's approved. 

        11               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 10, assignment of an option 

        12          agreement for Paynes Prairie CARL project. 

        13               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        14               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        15               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        16          objection, it's approved.  

        17               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 11 is an option agreement 

        18          for Dudley Farms addition.

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.  

        20               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        22          objection, it's approved. 

        23               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 12 is a land exchange 

        24          agreement and an ingress, egress easement.

        25               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval. 


         1               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

         3          objection, it's approved. 

         4               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 13, we are recommending 

         5          approval of an offer to purchase a RICO property in 

         6          acceptance of the highest and best offer.

         7               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         8               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Second.

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        10          objection, it's approved. 

        11               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 14 is a conveyance.

        12               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

        13               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        14               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        15          objection, it's approved.

        16               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 15 is City of Belle Glade 

        17          purchase of a state-owned parcel of land. 

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval. 

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded; without 

        21          objection, it's approved. 

        22               MS. WETHERELL:  Substitute item 16, we are 

        23          recommending approval subject to conditions of a 

        24          420-acre tract of land in Walton County.  It's a 

        25          determination that it no longer needs to be preserved 


         1          in furtherance of the intent of the P 2000 Act.  

         2               Trustees, what I would like to do is, we have 

         3          got a long list of people for and against the 

         4          project.  The Department of Community Affairs, by 

         5          statute, was given a lead on the development of a 

         6          plan.  So I would like to ask Jim Murley to briefly 

         7          walk you through the process, and then we will -- at 

         8          a suggestion made to me earlier, we will limit the 

         9          speakers to 20 minutes per side.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very well. 

        11               MS. WETHERELL:  Secretary Murley. 

        12               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Good morning, Governor, 

        13          members of the Cabinet.  My name is Jim Murley, 

        14          Secretary of Department of Community Affairs.  

        15               I will be briefly summarizing a letter that I 

        16          provided your staff yesterday.  I have seven copies, 

        17          those are an addition to your record, and there has 

        18          been a lot done since your momentous decision in '92 

        19          to buy this land, a lot of hard work.  

        20               There are still some valid concerns by all the 

        21          parties, and I recognize that.  But at the 

        22          Secretary's request working on this project and from 

        23          my own personal standpoint, I have been involved with 

        24          this project since the day of the sale; and working 

        25          with the interagency management committee that you 


         1          first asked to look at this, I had the pleasure of 

         2          serving at the Governor's appointment on the South 

         3          Walton County Conservation Development Trust.  As 

         4          Secretary, it was my responsibility to assist the 

         5          Ecosystem management study that was done under State 

         6          legislation.  

         7               So I come to you, members of the Cabinet, with 

         8          that background, and with an overall feeling that 

         9          what we are really about here today, recognizing the 

        10          valid differences of opinion; and the concerns about 

        11          precedent is that, there was some -- we sat down and 

        12          thought we were doing the right thing in 1992, and we 

        13          talked about how we could address the County's 

        14          concerns; and we have been about that since then.  We 

        15          have done that through your directions at various 

        16          points.  

        17               The Legislature has spoken to this issue, and 

        18          that's what I have tried to outline in the letter, 

        19          four different times, twice specifically only for the 

        20          south Walton County parcels.  

        21               So we feel that we are before you with a package 

        22          which is one step on the road.  We have been through 

        23          several, including redrawing the CARL boundary, your 

        24          acceptance of that boundary, review by different 

        25          various agencies with responsibility, review by the 


         1          land management advisory committee.  And there will 

         2          be more steps.  

         3               Your vote today does not dispose of land.  It 

         4          acknowledges a recommendation to you from various 

         5          parties which are outlined in the letter that, 

         6          pursuant to the intent of P 2000, this land is no 

         7          longer necessary for ownership by the State.  

         8               And then some very hard work has yet to be done 

         9          to prepare a disposition plan, which has to be 

        10          brought back to you.  And you will have further 

        11          advice, and you will deliberate on that.  

        12               So this is that step on a road that we first 

        13          started out when we had a great opportunity, and you 

        14          took the advice of many people, you took that 

        15          momentous step to buy for the State of Florida some 

        16          very, very valuable land for future generations; and 

        17          we have all benefited from that.  

        18               And the recommendations include buying more 

        19          land, over 1,600 acres of additional land would be 

        20          bought, and the recommendation for disposal is now 

        21          down to 420 acres of which only 179 would be put to a 

        22          development use, either public or private.  The 

        23          remaining acreage of that 420 would be protected by 

        24          easement covenant and deed restriction and permit. 

        25               So we believe this is a balanced response.  It's 


         1          consistent with legislative intent.  It's consistent 

         2          with your past decisions.  

         3               I can tell you as Department of Community 

         4          Affairs that Walton County has a plan in compliance 

         5          with State law.  This proposal is consistent with 

         6          that.  And I would be pleased to answer any questions 

         7          and respond at any point during the process.  

         8               Thank you.

         9               TREASURER NELSON:  Governor.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir. 

        11               TREASURER NELSON:  Mr. Secretary, would -- do 

        12          you happen to have a map that would show us the 

        13          additional development of the 1,600 acres over and 

        14          above the 420 that you talked about, and I must   say 

        15          --

        16               SECRETARY MURLEY:  There are so many maps.  

        17               TREASURER NELSON:  I must say that the amount of 

        18          planning that has gone into this, I really commend 

        19          the County, you, the Department of Environmental 

        20          Protection, you really put a lot of thought into 

        21          this.  And my impression, as I looked at it, is that 

        22          there is a general benefit to all of that south 

        23          county area if you create a new town center, then it 

        24          needs it.  Instead of it just happening willy-nilly. 

        25          If it's a planned community, it's going to be so much 


         1          for the betterment of all the citizens.  

         2               And so give us an idea of what you are talking 

         3          about in addition to the 420 acres.  

         4               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Thank you, Treasurer Nelson. 

         5          And I would add to the people who have worked hard, 

         6          the citizens of Walton County.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Will you send up a little copy 

         8          of that map that he showed us so that we have it?  

         9               SECRETARY MURLEY:  And this map is a product of 

        10          that citizens group, and it shows you the areas that 

        11          with the redrawn CARL boundary and would debate in 

        12          front of public hearings and other groups, it was 

        13          decided that the connector, the green way connector 

        14          between the State for -- 

        15               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Should I wait?

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Let's get a map, sir, so we 

        17          can follow you.  

        18               SECRETARY MURLEY:  It appears that you should 

        19          have the maps, and I can verbally describe to you 

        20          what those areas are. 

        21               MS. WETHERELL:  We are making copies, but your 

        22          staffs each have one.

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Some of us can use one.  Maybe 

        24          if you can get several of them up here.  Okay.  There 

        25          is one in the back.  Okay. 


         1               TREASURER NELSON:  My question specifically is, 

         2          for you to illusidate us on your statement of an 

         3          overall planned area of an additional 1,600 acres.  I 

         4          know about the 420, because Bob Milligan and I walked 

         5          around that one; but what I am curious is an overall 

         6          planning aspect.  

         7               SECRETARY MURLEY:  All of the legislative 

         8          direction and your direction was to look at 

         9          acquisition and disposition.  I mean, the goal was to 

        10          provide a contiguous protected area of the state 

        11          parks.  There is three now, which are most valuable, 

        12          and the State forests.  And using the base properties 

        13          that you had decided to acquire in '92, there were 

        14          gaps and out parcels.  

        15               So the recommendations include completion of the 

        16          purchase of the outparcels.  A fairly -- a wide 

        17          connector, a greenway, that originally was looked at 

        18          as more or less a pedestrian or user-friendly green 

        19          way, but now has been broadened to include additional 

        20          environmental protections. 

        21               Rather than sell some of those lands, that 

        22          connector, that east-west connector between the main 

        23          forest body and Topsail Hill has been broadened.  And 

        24          that was primarily because of the recommendations of 

        25          the community.  They wanted that area protected.  


         1               So to do that, the State must buy more land to 

         2          make that connector a viable contiguous piece of 

         3          State-owned land that the greenway -- it's called the 

         4          greenway connector -- can be done.  

         5               The other primary portions is that many of the 

         6          professionals and the community pointed to for needed 

         7          acquisition was north of Topsail Hill.  North of 

         8          Topsail Hill, as you remember, the parcel was south 

         9          of 98.  

        10               To the north are significant parcels of 

        11          State-owned lands, but they offer the opportunity to 

        12          have a State-owned connection from the beach to the 

        13          bay.  And to do that, again, to have a manageable 

        14          piece of property, we need to buy more State -- buy 

        15          private parcels and add them to our already existing 

        16          State ownership.  

        17               So those would be the primary areas of 

        18          additional acquisition. 

        19               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Governor.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am. 

        21               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  I just want to ask 

        22          a quick question.  

        23               Are you suggesting that more property is going 

        24          to be purchased in the future?  

        25               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I am conveying, Madam 


         1          Secretary, the recommendations of all the agencies' 

         2          responsibility that -- included in the new CARL 

         3          boundary would be the acquisition of another 1,600 

         4          acres.  The County is aware of that.  That is in the 

         5          works.  That completes the management and contiguous 

         6          ownership of the forests and the State parks.  And I 

         7          don't know of any debate on that point, but I cannot 

         8          speak for all parties.  But I certainly support that, 

         9          and I believe that to be the recommendation of the -- 

        10          I do serve with the Secretary on the CARL acquisition 

        11          committee; and in redrawing the CARL boundary, we 

        12          assumed that those further acquisitions, which have 

        13          been, Secretary Wetherell, the case that's devoted on 

        14          as part of the CARL report.  

        15               Yes, you voted on that boundary.

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  So this will be an additional 

        17          1,600 acres.  1,600 acres we have already purchased?  

        18               SECRETARY MURLEY:  This is on top of the 19,000 

        19          acres.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  19,000.

        21               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Yes, because those were 

        22          scattered.

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right. 

        24               SECRETARY MURLEY:  We are going to have a 

        25          beautiful contiguous area of publicly-owned land, the 


         1          best anywhere on the Gulf Coast as far as I am 

         2          concerned.

         3               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.  

         4               Any other questions?  

         5               TREASURER NELSON:  Well, if you would take the 

         6          map now and tell me what you're talking about.  We 

         7          have a color map of what you just gave us on a 

         8          Xerox.  So where is it? 

         9               SECRETARY MURLEY:  This is the main State 

        10          forest.

        11               TREASURER NELSON:  No.  I understand that.  I 

        12          know where the 420 acres is.  What I am trying -- 

        13          would you describe the overall development of 1,600 

        14          acres? 

        15               SECRETARY MURLEY:  The acquisition of private 

        16          property to be added to the State forests and the 

        17          State parks, not development.

        18               TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  So that's not the 

        19          development.  You're only talking about the 420 as 

        20          the development.  

        21               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Absolutely, but I wanted to 

        22          put that in context, that as you were reviewing that 

        23          item, we are also talking about purchasing these 

        24          additional lands to be protected for the forests and 

        25          the State parks.


         1               TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  

         2               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I'm sorry if I misunderstood 

         3          your question.

         4               TREASURER NELSON:  Go ahead. 

         5               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have got -- 

         6          when we got started in 1992, part of the problem we 

         7          had, I think, it was a pretty quick purchase, and the 

         8          County stated that they did not want to purchase 

         9          anymore lands.  What's happening now is you're saying 

        10          we are going to develop 420 acres, but then take 

        11          1,600 more acres and a possible development.  Is the 

        12          County going along with that?  Have they changed 

        13          their position on this?  

        14               SECRETARY MURLEY:  As part -- again, Attorney 

        15          General, we are not asking to develop 420 acres.  The 

        16          parcel for disposition of State-owned lands is total 

        17          420 acres, but only 179 of those would be replaced 

        18          with public or private use.

        19               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  How much is going 

        20          to be public and how much private?  

        21               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I don't have the exact 

        22          figure.  The public uses --

        23               MS. KEYS:  Do you want me to address that? 

        24               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Well, just give me a figure.

        25               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Just a ballpark.


         1               MS. KEYS:  For this very specific plan, it's 60 

         2          acres, approximately, for public.  That's contingent 

         3          upon this specific plan.  

         4               SECRETARY MURLEY:  That's Cassie Keys 

         5          representing the County. 

         6               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And would you by 

         7          any chance know of any other State CARL lands we have 

         8          used for a private development?  

         9               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I am only familiar with the 

        10          south Walton situation, Attorney General.  And I am 

        11          not -- I am not familiar with any other legislative 

        12          directions to plan for development, any conservation 

        13          project on P 2000 lands.  I think that is the 

        14          precedent we are dealing with. 

        15               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  For the 1,600 

        16          acres, are they willing to sell the forest 1,600 

        17          acres? 

        18               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I don't have the answer to 

        19          that.

        20               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Are you going to 

        21          be paying a tremendous premium for those other acres? 

        22          We got a pretty good buy for the Point Washington 

        23          piece, but are they going to be, in essence, selling 

        24          these 450 acres and having to end up paying 

        25          tremendously high money for the 1,600 acres and can't 


         1          afford to do it?  

         2               SECRETARY MURLEY:  That would be a question 

         3          probably best addressed by DEP.  But from my 

         4          experience, Attorney General, these are not prime 

         5          lands.  These are not the beachfront lands that I 

         6          worked with you on during the condemnation case. 

         7          These are timberlands that would add to the forest 

         8          and complete parcels that are already owned by the 

         9          State.

        10               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Are there any 

        11          owners in the 1,600 acres that want to buy that will 

        12          be involved in this particular town center 

        13          development, so you can trade lands or whatever we 

        14          have to do? 

        15               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Certainly, that would be 

        16          available to the land acquisition agents.

        17               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  But you don't 

        18          have that now? 

        19               SECRETARY MURLEY:  No, because the disposition 

        20          plan is not before us.  We are bringing that back a 

        21          subsequent date, if you approve the finding that we 

        22          no longer need this land for P 2000. 

        23               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Let me -- if I may, let 

        24          me understand now.  We are talking about 60 acres 

        25          that will be used for public purposes, and another 


         1          amount of acreage used to the tune of 170, 180, that 

         2          will be used for private development? 

         3               SECRETARY MURLEY:  I have got -- let me make 

         4          sure I give you the math right. 

         5               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Somewhere in the 

         6          ballpark. 

         7               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Yes.  It would be 179 minus 

         8          60.

         9               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  But is the 60 all of the land 

        11          that will ever be used for public purpose of that 

        12          179, or is that 60 what they have something for right 

        13          now; and is all the rest going to be for private or 

        14          is that a portion of that?  

        15               SECRETARY MURLEY:  That's the plan that is 

        16          before you today, Governor.  And it could be 

        17          addressed -- in the future would have to come back to 

        18          you, of course.  

        19               But the plan is for a town center; and a town 

        20          center needs more than just public buildings.  It 

        21          needs the opportunity to have some housing.  And as 

        22          the Affordable Housing Agency, we could go in and 

        23          work with private parties to build affordable housing 

        24          for the people who work in that in the south county. 

        25          It needs a place for the workers to be able to do 


         1          some shopping.  

         2               If not, what we are asking is it would make the 

         3          transportation problem worse, rather than let the 

         4          people walk to some of their accessible uses, we 

         5          would be asking them to get in their cars.  This is 

         6          the right location for a town center.  It's right at 

         7          the intersection of two major state highways. 

         8               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I may, we already did 

         9          a visit with Commissioner Nelson the property of 

        10          concern, and I was taken, frankly, by the fact that 

        11          there were no other pieces of property considered to 

        12          accommodate this 60-acre requirement for public 

        13          services.  And it kind of concerns me a little bit 

        14          that this one single piece of property, which was 

        15          initially inside the CARL boundary, now outside the 

        16          CARL boundary, and other pieces of property outside 

        17          all along the CARL boundary were never considered for 

        18          the town center.  

        19               I understand also there is an old town center 

        20          for south Walton County that is in existence and 

        21          proximate to CARL project property that's outside of 

        22          the boundary. 

        23               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Comptroller Milligan, if I 

        24          can respond.  Again, I served on the Trust that was 

        25          allocated the funds to plan and make an inventory of 


         1          all 52,000 acres, public and private.  We hired some 

         2          of the best consultants.  We had the advantage of the 

         3          help of the Division of Forestry and all of the State 

         4          agencies.  We looked at the entire 52,000 acres to 

         5          try to find the best site for a town center.  This 

         6          center, itself, is not all publicly owned. 

         7               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I understand. 

         8               SECRETARY MURLEY:  In that sense, if we had gone 

         9          to 100 percent publicly owned, it would have been the 

        10          easiest -- it still would have been a tough policy 

        11          decision, but this was the location.  It's really a 

        12          fundamental question, if we are willing to address 

        13          it, that this is the best location for a town center 

        14          and does the least disruption to the --

        15               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So you are telling me 

        16          that you did look at alternate sites? 

        17               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Yes. 

        18               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You are the first person 

        19          that has been willing to stand up and say it. 

        20               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Well, I will be willing to 

        21          stand up and say what I did.  And as a member of that 

        22          Trust, I know what I looked at -- and as a planner, 

        23          the place to put a location that attracts people is 

        24          near the roads that have the best ability and the 

        25          capacity to carry the traffic.  And those state 


         1          highways, we have made a commitment through the 

         2          Department of Transportation --

         3               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Where is the population 

         4          largely located in the south Walton County?  

         5               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Perhaps the County could best 

         6          answer that question.  It's my understanding --

         7               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I assumed you would have 

         8          considered that in --

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  It would be in Grayton Beach 

        10          east.  

        11               SECRETARY MURLEY:  The majority of the 

        12          population is north of the bay.

        13               GOVERNOR CHILES:  No, but in south, south 

        14          Walton.

        15               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  In south Walton.  

        16               SECRETARY MURLEY:  It's spread out along 30A, 

        17          the coastal road which is --

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  The most dense population 

        19          would be at Grayton Beach and east of there in the 

        20          Seascape, or Seaside.  

        21               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Probably, but this center was 

        22          chosen to serve all--

        23               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I would be curious to 

        24          know where the most dense population is that's going 

        25          to be served; and no one has been able to give me an 


         1          answer on that just yet until now, and I am not sure 

         2          I have it yet. 

         3               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Well, I can only, again, give 

         4          you my professional opinion, Mr. Milligan.  But if we 

         5          look to the future, if we look at the population 

         6          projections, we look at the land that we already own 

         7          and are proposing to buy, then I believe that, again, 

         8          for a town center, this would be the best location.

         9               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I hope as we go through 

        10          the continued dialogue here that someone will address 

        11          the population growth and the potential as to where 

        12          the population will be, in fact, generally located in 

        13          south Walton County; and secondly, the aspect of 

        14          other sites that were, in fact, considered for the 

        15          town center. 

        16               SECRETARY MURLEY:  There are several plans 

        17          available. 

        18               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.  Thank you. 

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, could I ask a 

        20          question?

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  How much -- excuse me, go 

        22          ahead. 

        23               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I was just going to ask, 

        24          whoever can answer this.  One of the things that 

        25          still concerns me about the parcel is parcel D.  That 


         1          is, I guess, considered to be my worst -- now, not 

         2          anybody else's -- more environmentally sensitive 

         3          based on its wetland features than some of the other 

         4          parts of that acreage of the 400 acres.  

         5               And I noticed and I have looked at the fact over 

         6          time that the only building that is scheduled for 

         7          that particular parcel D, which is in the lower 

         8          right-hand corner, it appears to be about 20 to 25 

         9          acres of development for public purposes, that being, 

        10          I guess, college grants, church and a library.  

        11               The only question that I would ask is, was there 

        12          a thought, or has there been thought, since it is the 

        13          only construction slated for that particular larger 

        14          parcel, that that construction could take place on 

        15          the remaining parcels where the public and private 

        16          construction is all slated for the most part to go 

        17          and allow that lower right-hand parcel D to remain 

        18          undeveloped, since it's not only wetland, but 

        19          apparently part and parcel to the outflow of that 

        20          property, I guess, to the bay?  

        21               Do you understand my question?  

        22               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Yes, I do, Commissioner.  

        23               The site works with the overall plan and its 

        24          location.  The jurisdictional wetland mapping is 

        25          taking place, and there will be a 50-foot setback 


         1          from all wetlands.  There will be all the permitting 

         2          requirements as far as drainage of that site as all 

         3          the sites.  And I think that, given the overall plan, 

         4          that was chosen by the team that was working on it to 

         5          be the site. 

         6               Therefore, if I can answer your question, I 

         7          believe from looking at it and seeing their final 

         8          product and knowing the permitting requirements that 

         9          are going to be imposed on that site, it makes sense. 

        10               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is there anything slated 

        11          in the future for any of the rest of that parcel D, 

        12          besides what we have in front of us today?  

        13               SECRETARY MURLEY:  As far as I know, 

        14          Commissioner, I have the same diagram, and that's all 

        15          that is proposed.

        16               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, Governor.

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Will you tell us -- the 

        18          General was saying that this is the first he heard 

        19          today, you know, that we looked at alternative sites. 

        20          I think if you would maybe tell us who, what kind of 

        21          meetings were taken?  Who participated?  Who did you 

        22          hear from?  You know, we are up here sort of 

        23          second-guessing you now in the last moments in asking 

        24          you questions, but was this something you arrived at 

        25          yourself?  


         1               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Oh, no.          

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Or was there a participatory 

         3          process that went into it; if so, what?  

         4               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Governor and members of the 

         5          Cabinet, as you will see from my letter, there was a 

         6          direct appropriation in 1993 for the creation of a 

         7          conservation of development trust.  Six individuals 

         8          were appointed by the County Commission and six 

         9          appointed by the Governor.  Those 12 formed the --

        10               MS. WETHERELL:  Senate, House, wasn't it?      

        11               SECRETARY MURLEY:  No.  Just the County.  There 

        12          was a later group, you are right. 

        13               MS. WETHERELL:  Sorry.  

        14               SECRETARY MURLEY:  They formed the 

        15          responsibility for conducting the planning for hiring 

        16          the consultants.  Part of the consultants they hired 

        17          were public participation consultants who did a 

        18          tremendous vision plan and a survey of hundreds of 

        19          the citizens of south Walton County who had a chance 

        20          to tell the Trust and the consultants what they 

        21          wanted.  

        22               And the town plan was in that, the town plan 

        23          came out of that vision that was created by the Trust 

        24          and the citizens providing input.

        25      / / / / /


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Did out of that Trust and out 

         2          of those meetings, did that come from the 

         3          recommendation to purchase the other acreage that we 

         4          are now talking about?  

         5               SECRETARY MURLEY:  That came later.

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  That came later. 

         7               SECRETARY MURLEY:  As the Trust completed its 

         8          work, it took two years, and the documents are on 

         9          file, it was felt that more work needed to be done to 

        10          be very precise before we came back to the Trustees 

        11          on any disposition or acquisition, because it was 

        12          clear to get those contiguous parcels, there was 

        13          going to have to be further acquisition.  

        14               So the Legislature passed the second act, which 

        15          was the -- it was a Ecosystem Management 

        16          Demonstration Act that the Secretary put together 

        17          with three demonstration parcels, two were -- one was 

        18          Panther, one was, I think, Hillsborough and one was 

        19          south Walton.  That led to the creation of another 

        20          group appointed by the County of which the Department 

        21          and DEP also served, and they hired the planners who 

        22          gave you the actual town plan document.  

        23               Then the whole process moved on and came back to 

        24          the CARL Committee Land Acquisition Advisory Council 

        25          at that time, and we made further discussions about 


         1          the CARL boundaries.  The CARL boundary decision, 

         2          which we recommended to you and you voted on that set 

         3          the direction for those acquisitions, and set -- and 

         4          leave this parcel outside of the boundary.  Once we 

         5          did that, we have now started this process and are 

         6          back in front of you. 

         7               There have been a lot of citizens involved that 

         8          are still out there that are still involved, they are 

         9          a unique group.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  How much was the acreage 

        11          involved in Topsail and how much was involved in 

        12          Point Washington originally?  

        13               SECRETARY MURLEY:  That one, I can't answer.  

        14               MR. BRADLEY:  I think Topsail is probably in the 

        15          neighborhood of 1,600 acres of land that's south of 

        16          U.S. 98 and west of 30A; and the Point Washington 

        17          project, I can't tell you what exactly; it was in 

        18          excess of 20,000 acres, as I recall, Governor, and 

        19          when we originally acquired this, we were only 

        20          acquiring one ownership, and that was what the 

        21          federal government owned at the time, and that was 

        22          the 19,000 more or less acres, which did not include 

        23          everything that was part of the original Point 

        24          Washington project.  

        25               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you. 


         1               Yes, sir. 

         2               TREASURER NELSON:  Mr. Secretary, I really 

         3          commend you for what you are doing.  I don't think 

         4          it's my position to second-guess the specifics of 

         5          what you have done in your study group, pursuant to 

         6          the legislation and set up your study group.  

         7               I think when I boil it down to the bottom line, 

         8          my job here is to question whether or not we should 

         9          make a determination that this land should be removed 

        10          from the P 2000.  

        11               So to try to sort that through my mind, then I 

        12          go back to, what are the legislative findings on P 

        13          2000?  Now, I support what you are doing about 

        14          creating a new town.  I think this -- so now we come 

        15          to my responsibility.  

        16               And if the legislative findings in the P 2000 

        17          statute are buying up land that otherwise its 

        18          development would contribute to, and now I am quoting 

        19          from the statute, "degradation of water resources, 

        20          fragmentation and destruction of wildlife habitats, 

        21          loss of recreation space, and the diminishment of 

        22          wetlands and forests."  If that's the standard by 

        23          which I am to judge this project, then could you give 

        24          me the specific bottom line reason as to why this 

        25          land would no longer meet that criteria and therefore 


         1          ought to be removed from the P 2000 lands?  

         2               SECRETARY MURLEY:  This parcel as represented in 

         3          the map, as you can see, is scattered State and 

         4          public ownership.  So it is fragmented from its 

         5          standpoint of being able to manage.  If you were 

         6          going to do a burn of the area, you would have to be 

         7          cognizant of the private ownership.  We know that 

         8          private land today, someone can go to the County 

         9          Commission and ask for a building permit, the private 

        10          land.  

        11               So we already have an area unlike the big forest 

        12          parcels and the State parks which has a management 

        13          issue.  It is as obvious that the intersection of two 

        14          highways, which almost always causes what we call 

        15          friction at the edges.  You have got road kill 

        16          problems, you have got just an access that a highway 

        17          -- a major highway can give you.  

        18               There is no question that it still exists on 

        19          that site, valuable natural resources.  That's 

        20          probably true for all of south Walton.  But we 

        21          believe the plan itself and the conditions we -- are 

        22          in the plan protect those resources and provide the 

        23          protection that would allow this parcel, while not in 

        24          State ownership, to be -- to not be a degradation to 

        25          the environment.  


         1               So I believe the answer to the question, because 

         2          you have to answer it if you have a disposal statute, 

         3          is that only in those rare instances where it is not 

         4          the right piece to manage as part of your overall 

         5          parcel and if the proper protections that are going 

         6          to be in place that you should ever consider.

         7               TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  And I would just --

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Let me just -- excuse me. Have 

         9          you finished? 

        10               TREASURER NELSON:  I have just one quick 

        11          follow-up.

        12               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Go ahead. 

        13               TREASURER NELSON:  In light of that, then, would 

        14          your recommendation to us be the same for all of 

        15          those 420 acres when, in fact, the way that you 

        16          assess the ecological significance of the 420 is that 

        17          you assessed it very low in ecological significance 

        18          on the 120 acres that was -- what's referred to as 

        19          parcel D, which is close to the intersection of the 

        20          two roads; whereas you assessed it as moderate, good 

        21          to high ecological quality on the remaining 300 -- 

        22          yeah, about 320 acres, on the remaining.  

        23               Would your answer be the same, even though two 

        24          different parts of that 420 acres had different 

        25          ecological assessments?  


         1               SECRETARY MURLEY:  Yes, because the protections 

         2          -- of the 420, we are only proposing 179 to use, the 

         3          remainder would be protected in conservation.  Yet, 

         4          those form the wetland systems that are there today, 

         5          except for the road crossings.  There are a few 

         6          places you would have to do mitigation; but we are 

         7          using the uplands in a well-developed town plan.  We 

         8          are protecting the wetlands.  

         9               I believe my answer would be yes.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Let me kind of review the 

        11          history on this, I think it might help you just a 

        12          little bit. 

        13               If you go back to 1992.  We were sitting in the 

        14          Cabinet meeting, the membership of the Cabinet was 

        15          somewhat different then, and the Attorney General 

        16          presented a proposal to us that morning, the first 

        17          that I heard about it, and said that there was going 

        18          to be a courthouse auction on the property that was 

        19          Topsail and Point Washington, and that he thought 

        20          that we should bid.  And he asked the Governor and 

        21          the other members of the Cabinet to go on record as 

        22          buying both parcels of land. 

        23               Topsail sale was very, very high on our CARL 

        24          list, had been.  We had been in all kinds of 

        25          litigation and other fights trying to buy this land 


         1          at one time or another.  It had always been 

         2          important.  

         3               Point Washington was good land, never ranked 

         4          anything like Topsail.  And here we were in about 30 

         5          minutes, if it was that long that we discussed this, 

         6          closer maybe to 20 minutes.  

         7               Now, the other thing, for the first time making 

         8          a decision that we are not going to buy Topsail 

         9          itself, and in that discussion, we said, let's just 

        10          buy Topsail, that's what we want.  Well, we got to 

        11          take all or nothing is the way it was.  It turned out 

        12          to be a wonderful bargain, no doubt about that.  We 

        13          -- when you talk about prices we paid, we never made 

        14          a better bargain than we did in that.  

        15               The sale was going to take place at high noon, I 

        16          think.  So we had just that long to do it.  

        17               The first time I think the County had heard 

        18          about that and the people of the County was either 

        19          the night before, the night before, I guess, because 

        20          they had driven to get here this morning; and they 

        21          came up and said, you are getting ready to lock up 

        22          the rest of the land in our county, and here we have 

        23          beaches down there.  We don't have anything for being 

        24          able to site schools or fire departments or a town 

        25          center or anything, and we have this growth in the 


         1          southern part of the county.   Please don't do that. 

         2          Let us bid with you to buy part of this land and all 

         3          kind of things.      

         4               We didn't have that long.  I said, we are going 

         5          to buy this land.  We have got to do it, or we are 

         6          going to put in a bid for it.  We will treat you 

         7          fairly in this.  Out of all of this land, the 

         8          critical land that we have to have and the other 

         9          land, we will find some land for you.  

        10               Now, I can tell you, this discussion would not 

        11          be necessary if I hadn't felt that that was true, 

        12          because I would have never voted for it.  I would 

        13          have never supported it.  I would have told those 

        14          people that we are getting ready to lock up all of 

        15          your land, going through no real cause of any review 

        16          of the way you would normally do things, giving them 

        17          no opportunity to be heard, done in about 20 or 30 

        18          minutes I've said.  But we will find this.  

        19               And then if you review what's happened through 

        20          that process since then, we brought everybody 

        21          involved in the environmental community and the 

        22          public interest community and the public sector 

        23          community, the private citizens, and have gone 

        24          through -- well, since 1992, and this is 1997, the 

        25          Legislature spoke to this thing four times.  


         1               Now, what are we up against?  We are up against 

         2          -- we are getting ready to change the precedent of P 

         3          2000.  

         4               Now, I believe that I have been a pretty good 

         5          supporter of P 2000 since the day I came into office, 

         6          or since I was running for office, made it one of the 

         7          items of my campaign that we would fund it, sought a 

         8          permanent funding source, and many occasions to try 

         9          to fund that.  But to lock ourselves up now or to 

        10          say, we are not going to consider this, do we have 

        11          some responsibility to a county if we are going to 

        12          buy all the land in that county?  Do we have some 

        13          responsibility to school children, to people that 

        14          have government services?  And we are hoisted on this 

        15          petard that we cannot break this precedent.  

        16               Well, I can tell you, again, we never would have 

        17          to worry about this argument, if I had thought that 

        18          we could not deal with this and deal with this county 

        19          fairly and in an appropriate way, because I don't 

        20          think it would ever have been supported that morning. 

        21               Now, Commissioner Crawford was here, and the 

        22          Attorney General was here, and the other members -- 

        23          so y'all are in a different position.  I mean, as far 

        24          -- and anybody else is, because they could have done 

        25          it on the basis of what their view was on it.  But I 


         1          know exactly what mine was, and I know that we are 

         2          not doing anything that hurts P 2000.  

         3               We are talking about 400-something acres out of 

         4          19,000 acres.  We have had everybody in the world 

         5          look to find the best place you could put this.  We 

         6          are only dealing with 179 acres of that 400-something 

         7          acres.  We are going to protect the rest.  

         8               Now, you know, at some stage, there has to be 

         9          some modicum of not only common sense, but common 

        10          decency, I think, to say that we are going to give 

        11          equity to a county, but also that we are going to 

        12          give some consistency to our word when we tell people 

        13          of the county not to worry, you don't have to go bid, 

        14          you don't have to compete with us.  From what we got 

        15          that land at, the County maybe could have mustered 

        16          itself up and bought it all themselves.  We only had 

        17          one bid, I believe.  We just put in the one bid, and 

        18          that was it. 

        19               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I may, Governor. 

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.

        21               (Applause from the audience.) 

        22               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I am in complete support 

        23          of the position that you just articulated with one 

        24          minor exception.  And it certainly -- I am not 

        25          concerned about the precedence setting or anything 


         1          else.  It was an agreement to try to support the 

         2          County, and I believe we need to stand up to that 

         3          agreement.  

         4               My only concern is, are we, in fact, picking the 

         5          best piece of property out of what is available?  And 

         6          I am not convinced of that yet by what I have heard 

         7          and what I have seen.  

         8               And I want to support what the Cabinet agreed to 

         9          in 1992, when you so well stated.  And believe me, I 

        10          am not hung up on the precedent.  We need to get the 

        11          best piece of property in their hands as rapidly as 

        12          we can, the piece of property that makes sense. 

        13          That's where I am coming from.

        14               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, if I 

        15          can, like you stated, this is the most unusual 

        16          purchase in modern times of property by the State, 

        17          where literally we had a few moments to decide 

        18          whether or not to take 19,000 acres or nothing.  And 

        19          the commitment was made to the County that we would 

        20          work with them at that time.  

        21               I can only submit, I think it's so unique what 

        22          we do here is not any precedent setting, it would be 

        23          very difficult.  I doubt very much that we are ever 

        24          going to buy a piece of property like this again; but 

        25          I share the General's concern, too, this is really 


         1          the best place, and I guess that's what we are here 

         2          for today to determine.

         3               MS. WETHERELL:  Governor, I would just like to 

         4          say that the Department, who is the land acquisition 

         5          agent for the State, we do not see this as precedent 

         6          setting either.  I mean, this is such a unique 

         7          acquisition.  Everything you said is on target. There 

         8          is nothing that's common about this proposal before 

         9          you, and it does not, in our mind, set any precedent 

        10          for the way we will deal with P 2000.  

        11               But for the way you bought it, but for the fact 

        12          that the Legislature has been intimately involved in 

        13          this issue and all the planning and dollars that have 

        14          been spent, there is nothing else like this before 

        15          you.  

        16               So as your staff, you are not going to see us 

        17          letting this particular acquisition or disposition be 

        18          precedent setting.

        19               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I also just want to add 

        20          that the whole concern about P 2000, what that does, 

        21          that came up after we made the deal.  What we were 

        22          talking about was, let's put in a bid for this piece 

        23          of property.  We have been trying to get this one, 

        24          let's put in one.  And then when the County said, 

        25          well, wait a minute, you're taking all of this land 


         1          away from us.  We said, don't worry.  We will sit 

         2          down with you.  We will figure out a process where 

         3          you can get some of this.  

         4               So I can tell you, the idea that we needed to 

         5          say, now, wait a minute, we are not setting a 

         6          precedent on it.  Nobody thought of that, I don't 

         7          think.  I don't think we ever dealt with this as P 

         8          2000.  We just said, we have got 20 minutes to buy 

         9          this piece of property, send a telegram or whatever 

        10          we did over there and said we want to knock it down 

        11          on the courthouse step; and as the General said, we 

        12          got 19,000 acres for nothing, because our bid was 

        13          less than what Topsail was worth, what we had 

        14          appraised it at, what we would have paid for it on 

        15          any given day. 

        16               MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.  There are a number of 

        17          speakers, and they might be able to address some of 

        18          the questions I have heard, particularly from the 

        19          Comptroller.  So we will get on with that, if that's 

        20          all right.  

        21               I am going to call first on George Wilson from 

        22          the Nature Conservancy who is opposed.  

        23               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  George Wilson, he 

        24          was at the courthouse steps that morning. 

        25               George, if you hadn't done all of this good 


         1          work, you know, no good deed ever goes unpunished. 

         2               MR. WILSON:  I am learning, yes, sir.  

         3               Thank you for the opportunity to speak.  I am 

         4          George Wilson, speaking on behalf of the Nature 

         5          Conservancy.  And my organization has asked me to 

         6          come and ask you not to vote on this item as the way 

         7          it's written.  Perhaps there is a better way that it 

         8          could be written; but as it's written now, we do 

         9          believe that it is precedent setting.  Even if you 

        10          use the minutes of this meeting to establish -- as 

        11          the Secretary said, that she doesn't believe there is 

        12          a precedent, there is nothing in the item that says 

        13          it isn't precedent.  

        14               And I wanted to go back just on a couple of 

        15          items, and it looks like I am beating on a sacred 

        16          dead horse here.  But when the Governor and Cabinet 

        17          voted in May 1992 to take this quick action, this 

        18          good cause item as the Governor has said, there was a 

        19          document that had been approved five months before by 

        20          that same Governor and Cabinet that had every bit of 

        21          this land in it; and that was the 1992 CARL Annual 

        22          Report.  

        23               Every bit of the boundary that we purchased was 

        24          in, except for the 400 acres that the CARL process 

        25          had designated not to buy, that to go ahead and 


         1          exclude it, because it was those scattered wetland 

         2          and piano pieces that were between the property.  

         3               So the Governor and Cabinet, when they voted in 

         4          May, voted for us to purchase an area that had been 

         5          through all of the procedures and all the process 

         6          that it normally goes through in a CARL process.  So 

         7          what we did, we have the best process in the United 

         8          States for looking at land, it takes a year, takes 

         9          even longer to -- ask a property owner how long it 

        10          takes to go through the process.  

        11               We designed that the reason it was ranked high 

        12          on the CARL list, I think the Attorney General can 

        13          attest to, is that a number of sites that were owned 

        14          by the RTC were thought not to have a lot of 

        15          vulnerability and threat; and the CARL community, 

        16          when asked, we told them that we were working on a 

        17          package deal for the RTC for all the sites in 

        18          Florida, and we were well underway prior to the 

        19          auction to do that.  

        20               The entire bulk sale did not go through, but we 

        21          got all the sites we wanted, and not only got this 

        22          one for nothing, but we got sites in Hillsborough for 

        23          15 percent of value, 30 percent of value in Brevard 

        24          County and scrub, and a mile of the Seminole County 

        25          on the Wekiva River at a greatly reduced price.  So 


         1          there was a whole package that we went through with 

         2          the Attorney General's help and with the Cabinet's 

         3          support.  

         4               But make no mistake that the 1,600 acres that 

         5          was in or out was all included in the CARL document. 

         6          It was all included in the boundaries and went 

         7          through all the process and all the procedures that 

         8          staff normally go through of all the agencies to look 

         9          at why something should or shouldn't be in an 

        10          acquisition project.  

        11               So the 1,600 acres, as talked about earlier that 

        12          somehow is back in, that was all in the original 

        13          boundary.  There is no gift back to the CARL program. 

        14               If you look at the boundary that was -- the 

        15          Governor and Cabinet approved in 1992, during the 

        16          three years that we deliberated on the Trust, we 

        17          dropped all the Priority 2 areas, thousands of acres 

        18          were dropped out of the CARL project that the CARL 

        19          community said should be Phase 2.  We dropped all the 

        20          beachfront, the southeastern portion of the county, 

        21          it's all now being developed in a very high end and 

        22          residential and condo development.  

        23               And of the 2,000 acres, it was the highest 

        24          priority of grant holdings in the Division of 

        25          Forestry's area.  We lost 600 acres to development, 


         1          because since May of 1992, there has been no new 

         2          holdings and additions program.  There has been no 

         3          timely acquisitions to buy the priority sites.  

         4               And that's still where we are today.  And if 

         5          there is a fight beyond this meeting today, then we 

         6          still are making no success.  The whole program is 

         7          still stymied.  

         8               What we need to do is have a decision that 

         9          allows the process to move forward to finish the CARL 

        10          boundaries and to succeed in the forest.  

        11               I would like to mention a couple other point on 

        12          the economics.  In the Trust deliberations, we hired 

        13          some economists that were supposedly pretty good 

        14          economists.  Their summary judgment on the economics 

        15          of this purchase was that for every county, every 

        16          acre that was in public holding, that saved the 

        17          County $3,200 -- $3,700 per acre per year.  $3,700, 

        18          because there were no infrastructure costs, no 

        19          services.  So every piece of land that was in public 

        20          ownership actually saved the County.  That's what the 

        21          Trust finding was.  

        22               At the time of the purchase, this former St. Joe 

        23          property was bringing in, as greenbelt land, about 

        24          $30,000 a year in income.  The County now receives, I 

        25          think, over $200,000 a year in payment in lieu.  


         1               So, you know -- and the conditions in 1997 are 

         2          very different than 1992.  You have one of the 

         3          fastest growing counties, very healthy, south Walton 

         4          County pays a very, very large percentage of the 

         5          overall taxes of the County.  So this is a county 

         6          that has received more than $150 million of largess  

         7          of the State.  Many other counties would love to have 

         8          these CARL monies or these type of purchases.     

         9               We have increased the value of private property. 

        10          The Trust report also said that, that lands adjacent 

        11          to the forest and to the park have gone up in value, 

        12          and they have gone up in value at a faster rate. 

        13               So I would suggest that the State's investment 

        14          has aided the County, the economics don't show any 

        15          negative impact.  

        16               And I would also like to show you one other 

        17          document.  The receiving waters for this project for 

        18          Point Washington is Choctawhatchee Bay. 

        19          Choctawhatchee Bay and river are one of the SWIM 

        20          priority areas, the areas for surface water and 

        21          improvement. 

        22               And as a board member of the water management 

        23          district, I can tell you that this is the area that 

        24          had a lot of impact, most of the value comes from 

        25          Choctawhatchee Bay and been impacted by bulkheaded 


         1          and by septic tanks and by development.  There is no 

         2          way you can put a development in a watershed and 

         3          increase the water quality.  And this is an area -- 

         4          this is a SWIM priority water body receiving area 

         5          that this development will -- that these lands will 

         6          flow into. 

         7               These State lands are also needed to buffer 

         8          other upstream private uses that will come.  This is 

         9          a rapidly developing county.  I don't think we have 

        10          hurt the county.  I just want to suggest that what 

        11          the Cabinet did followed the CARL process in every 

        12          step possible; and so we really need to think about 

        13          those type of situations.  And this is a precedent, 

        14          and it's a precedent that people in Florida, when you 

        15          try to explain why we are giving something back that 

        16          has private development in it, it is very hard to 

        17          explain this to people.  The editorial boards and 

        18          most of the papers as we have been through this 

        19          process many times have --

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  George, I don't think many of 

        21          you have tried to explain it very well.  

        22               MR. WILSON:  You may be right, sir.  

        23               But as they understood why we would give back a 

        24          piece of functioning public conservation land, it is 

        25          very difficult to explain that.  And I understand 


         1          that you're opening Pandora's box here whether you 

         2          say it's a precedent or not.  There are a lot of 

         3          people watching this on the both sides of the coin.

         4               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, George, do you 

         5          understand that Pandora's box would have never been 

         6          there if I had known, in effect, that we were going 

         7          to lock all of this up and we were not going to let 

         8          the County have anything, because somebody else would 

         9          have bid that down on the courthouse steps maybe, but 

        10          it wouldn't have been the State of Florida.  

        11               MR. WILSON:  Yes, sir.  You may be right; but 

        12          what I am suggesting that we have been in the process 

        13          by dropping out thousands of acres that were in the 

        14          CARL boundary that since the Trust deliberation in 

        15          either year of pretrust deliberation that a lot of 

        16          areas we wanted to buy have been developed.

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, then are you saying that 

        18          we have already set the precedent when we dropped 

        19          some of those out of the CARL boundary?

        20               MR. WILSON:  We dropped them out because they 

        21          were being developed while we deliberated as a trust 

        22          for two years.  There was no process to buy anything.

        23               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, George, we are either 

        24          pure or we are not.  

        25               MR. WILSON:  Okay.


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  If we dropped them out, we are 

         2          already pregnant, aren't we?  

         3               MR. WILSON:  We may be. 

         4               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Isn't that -- George, 

         5          isn't that a potential problem statewide with a 

         6          potential P 2000 property, however, that before the 

         7          State, even though it has designated that property is 

         8          property we would like to have, isn't the potential 

         9          always there that before we can get to it, before it 

        10          allows us enough money to purchase, that somebody 

        11          else could either purchase it out from under us or 

        12          somebody who already owns it could develop it and use 

        13          it for another purpose?  

        14               MR. WILSON:  Yes, sir.

        15               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I guess my point is, I see 

        16          where you're coming from on that issue; but that, in 

        17          itself, by dropping it out, is not an -- it's not a 

        18          conscious act of the State.  It is the circumstances 

        19          that we face statewide potentially when we say any 

        20          time when we earmark property on the CARL list, 

        21          somebody can either come in and develop that property 

        22          who already owns it or somebody can buy that property 

        23          for development purposes.  

        24               So that, in terms of this particular section, is 

        25          no different than that possibility, even in some 


         1          cases probability statewide.  We would like to have a 

         2          CARL boundary that you could buy exclusively 

         3          tomorrow, 100 percent of it, and never face that 

         4          issue.  Unfortunately, you only have so much money 

         5          and so much time, you always run the risk that 

         6          somebody is going to beat you to it for development 

         7          purposes. 

         8               MR. WILSON:  Yes, sir.  

         9               In closing, I appreciate the time.  The test has 

        10          not been met, I think, in my opinion, and in my 

        11          organization's opinion, that this land is no longer 

        12          needed in the furtherance of P 2000.  There has been 

        13          no technical discussion of why these functioning wet 

        14          prairies, why these flatwoods, why these baygalls and 

        15          why these stream systems aren't working, and why they 

        16          aren't working as well as they were when they were 

        17          put in the boundary, a buffer to the bay and protect 

        18          the habitat.  

        19               The only reasons given for disposing of this 

        20          have been that people have met and changed 

        21          boundaries.  There is still the criteria that if this 

        22          land is working, and if you put the technicians up on 

        23          the stand and ask them is this place functioning, is 

        24          it working, you couldn't get another answer but the 

        25          fact that this is a functioning healthy system. 


         1               Thank you. 

         2               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir. 

         3               MS. WETHERELL:  Not counting your time for 

         4          questions, that was six minutes of the 20.  

         5               I wanted to say something to correct the 

         6          record.  

         7               In regard to the '92 CARL proposal that he held 

         8          up in front of you, he is correct in that a lot of 

         9          that CARL -- you had approved a lot of that land as 

        10          part of the CARL boundary.  

        11               My staff says that we did buy some land in that 

        12          purchase that was outside the CARL boundary, but the 

        13          point I wanted to make to you was that you would not 

        14          have purchased that land, because that was number 55 

        15          or 56 on the priority list; and it was not in the 

        16          money, not in the work plan, so but for that 

        17          opportunity on the courthouse steps, we would not 

        18          have Point Washington.  It turns out it's a great 

        19          buy, but you would not have it. 

        20               If I can call on Susie Caplow (ph) from Sierra 

        21          Club.  

        22               MS. CAPLOW:  Governor and Cabinet, thank you for 

        23          the opportunity this morning.  My name is Susan 

        24          Caplow, and I am speaking for Judy Hancock, the 

        25          public lands issue Chair for the Florida Chapter 


         1          Sierra Club, who presented a prepared statement last 

         2          week at a Cabinet aides meeting; and I have copies 

         3          here if you didn't get it from last week.  

         4               We continue to oppose the transfer or surplus of 

         5          420-acre tract of P 2000 lands in Walton County, 

         6          which was within the original boundary of Point 

         7          Washington State Forest.  We believe this tract 

         8          satisfies the intent of the P 2000 Act acquisition of 

         9          lands for conservation and recreational purposes.  

        10               This tract contains numerous wetlands, a stream 

        11          system, opportunities for recreation and public green 

        12          space, is manageable as part of the state forest. 

        13          This tract also contains flora and fauna similar to 

        14          that found within the existing state forest.  The 

        15          test for the disposal of this land has not been met. 

        16               The remaining 400 acres of the various size 

        17          tracts which are outside the CARL boundary should be 

        18          evaluated for their natural resource values.  Some 

        19          tracts may not meet the intent of P 2000 and could be 

        20          suitable for surplus. 

        21               We do believe this transfer or surplus is 

        22          precedent setting.  This surplus will bring about 

        23          some consequences that we may not understand.  We 

        24          heard last week at Cabinet aide's meeting that you 

        25          have already received requests for other P 2000 lands 


         1          to be looked at for surplusing.  

         2               The P 2000 program is known around the world. 

         3          It's a premier program, it's a model.  In the last 

         4          few years, this program has been under attack 

         5          legislatively, as you know.  We are trying to hold 

         6          the line, and we ask that you stand with us.  

         7               Thank you. 

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am. 

         9               MS. WETHERELL:  Bonnie McQuiston (ph).  

        10               MS. McQUISTON:  McQuiston.  Yes. 

        11               Distinguished Cabinet members, I am Bonnie 

        12          McQuiston.  I am a resident of south Walton.  Today 

        13          -- excuse me, I have got to have my glasses.  

        14               Today you decide if a chunk of our contiguous 

        15          Point Washington State Forest land, which was on the 

        16          CARL list, targeted for preservation and was bought 

        17          for preservation is no longer a functioning ecosystem 

        18          and no longer needed in furtherance of Preservation 

        19          2000.  

        20               If the contiguous Point Washington State Forest 

        21          land at the proposed new town site, Sections 30 and 

        22          31, is not found no longer needed in furtherance of 

        23          Preservation 2000, we urge consideration of the 

        24          surplus 400 acres of State land, Sections 27 and 28, 

        25          in the present Santa Rosa Beach town center.  


         1               Our existing town center is in dire need of 

         2          revitalization and useful infrastructure.  The State 

         3          surplus land in Sections 27 and 28 has never been 

         4          included in a CARL resource boundary and is not in 

         5          contentious disposition.  The proposed new town plan 

         6          designates 58 acres, approximately, for municipal 

         7          infrastructure.  

         8               Certainly in the 400 acres of surplus State 

         9          land, never included in a CARL project, 58 suitable 

        10          acres can be found.  The surrounding private land 

        11          will support private and commercial development as 

        12          called for in the town plan without using State land 

        13          for private enterprise.  This is responsible 

        14          sustainable development.  

        15               Thank you. 

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am. 

        17               MS. WETHERELL:  Eva Armstrong from Audubon.  

        18               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Good morning.  Eva Armstrong 

        19          from Audubon Society.  I have two points for you. 

        20               One is that clearly it is about this 420 acres. 

        21          It is about the value of the natural resources that 

        22          are there, which is why we have got P 2000.  

        23               And if you took a similar circumstance, you 

        24          might be sitting here today, and let's say you had a 

        25          prison crisis and the only money that would be spent 


         1          in prisons was in PICO funds, you would be outraged 

         2          at the idea that you would use a public school 

         3          funding source if you are to pay for prisons.  

         4               That's what we're talking about on this 420 

         5          acres, because it's natural resources.

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, we have used public 

         7          school funds for building aquariums, building 

         8          auditoriums, a lot of other things.  

         9               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Well, I would suggest that the 

        10          educators ought to be outraged at that idea, too. 

        11               Because -- Governor, let me explain this to you. 

        12          I mean, I have given it a lot of thought.  

        13               Do we think that you should narrow surplus any 

        14          -- any land off of P 2000?  No.  Particularly in this 

        15          case, where you have got the lands between the east 

        16          and west portions above 98.  There is lots of 

        17          individual parcels.  There are plans for surplus -- 

        18          we haven't contested that.  The key, though, is that 

        19          at the end -- and this is where the precedent comes 

        20          in with this 420 acres.  At the end, I think the 

        21          judgment needs to be made that you have got the net 

        22          positive benefit.  That, in fact, your decision today 

        23          will mean that the lands we retain are in better 

        24          shape.  

        25               Now, I would just caution you that if you go 


         1          immediately to the idea that, well, we have expanded 

         2          the CARL boundaries for an additional 1,600 acres, 

         3          just remember that in this area of the state property 

         4          values, particularly contiguous to the already 

         5          State-owned land, have gone up substantially in 

         6          price.  The sellers are less willing than they were 

         7          before.  We are not using imminent domain.  And we 

         8          may never, in fact, apply the 1,600 acres, although I 

         9          want to encourage the State to go forward and buy it. 

        10               This is a tough position to be in.  Believe it 

        11          or not, I do understand it.  I just want to make sure 

        12          that in terms of precedent that you're really sure 

        13          that in the end what you decide today means that the 

        14          State will be better off for P 2000 than before you 

        15          make the decision.  

        16               Thank you.  

        17               TREASURER NELSON:  May I ask a question?

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir. 

        19               TREASURER NELSON:  Just a quick question.  

        20               Ms. Armstrong, I think up here that the question 

        21          for a number of us is not whether or not there should 

        22          be a new town center.  I think we have already 

        23          crossed that threshold, and we think there should. 

        24          The question is, where should it be located?  

        25               Now, if you go to that site three miles to the 


         1          west, you have the same question facing us about the 

         2          release of lands from P 2000.  So what's the 

         3          difference in your argument and the argument of the 

         4          gentleman from the Nature Conservancy?  

         5               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Well, I can't speak for George 

         6          Wilson, but certainly from my viewpoint, this 420 

         7          acres, from everything I have seen has greater 

         8          natural resource values.  Is -- although it's 

         9          separated by roads, is contiguous to the state 

        10          forests and has a greater degree of quality than the 

        11          other 400.  

        12               Now, that is from my judgment, not a scientific 

        13          judgment.  I think that also needs to be evaluated 

        14          when you decide which lands to dispose of and what 

        15          the lands would be used for later.  

        16               I don't know if that answers your question.  

        17          But, you see, I think -- you see, what you're being 

        18          asked to do today is to decide that this 420 isn't 

        19          needed for P 2000, separate from what it would be 

        20          used for, you see.  And I understand the difficulty 

        21          in trying to -- well, what is it going to be used for 

        22          gets tied into very easily to, well, should we let 

        23          go.  

        24               But I think you have to make it a separate 

        25          decision, and it's not easy to do.  I mean --


         1               TREASURER NELSON:  But under your reasoning, you 

         2          would oppose a new town center in a site three miles 

         3          to the west, would you not?

         4               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Well, I am not coming from a 

         5          standpoint of a town center or not.  I am looking at 

         6          the land that is there; why it was bought.  And if, 

         7          in the end result, you can't actually get the 1,600 

         8          acres, then that, in my mind, wouldn't that be better 

         9          than the 400? 

        10               But, again, I am not looking at the issue of a 

        11          town center.  I never have in this, to be honest with 

        12          you.  I am looking at the value what's on that 420 

        13          acres. 

        14               TREASURER NELSON:  And you are also looking at 

        15          the precedent, you're saying.

        16               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Absolutely.

        17               TREASURER NELSON:  So therefore, you would 

        18          oppose the release of any of those lands no matter 

        19          where they are located?  

        20               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Of those 420?

        21               TREASURER NELSON:  Of any lands.  

        22               MS. ARMSTRONG:  No.

        23               TREASURER NELSON:  Under the principal in which 

        24          you just enunciated.  

        25               MS. ARMSTRONG:  No.  Then I wasn't clear.  Let 


         1          me clarify it, okay?  

         2               In the maps that you looked at, you know, you 

         3          have got the Point Washington.  Point Washington is 

         4          on the east and Topsail is on the west.  You have got 

         5          a whole slew of -- what's the word I am looking for 

         6          -- parcels of land that was separate and not 

         7          contiguous from what my understanding is, they were 

         8          scarified, they are north of 98.  

         9               They weren't in any CARL project.  You know, if 

        10          I were sitting in your seat, I would be saying, yes, 

        11          it makes sense to surplus those, because we can use 

        12          that money to buy better land that's contiguous of 

        13          high quality.  

        14               Those are the -- so, yes, I am suggesting that 

        15          there are lands that should be surplused.  It's this 

        16          420 that I am questioning.  

        17               Does that make more sense? 

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am.  

        19               MS. ARMSTRONG:  Thank you.  

        20               MR. WILSON:  Mr. Treasurer, in response to your 

        21          question, I would support the location of a town 

        22          center, from what I know about the lands that are 

        23          outside the CARL boundary, on those lands.  And there 

        24          is more than enough space on those lands to 

        25          accommodate all the public uses.  Whether or not 


         1          there is private subdivision room on those lands, I 

         2          don't know.  But those lands have been fair game, in 

         3          my opinion, ever since the CARL process eliminated 

         4          them from the CARL boundary.  

         5               So that is an area that I would not stand and 

         6          oppose nor I think my organization to put the public 

         7          uses on that property.  

         8               Thank you. 

         9               TREASURER NELSON:  How do you explain the 

        10          consistency of that position given the principal that 

        11          you enunciated in your earlier statement?  

        12               MR. WILSON:  Because as Eva said, we are not 

        13          opposed to disposing of lands that are identified in 

        14          the process for disposal, and sometimes we buy 

        15          properties where you have to buy an entire ownership, 

        16          and in the CARL process, you put lands outside the 

        17          management boundary.  Those lands are outside from 

        18          anybody's management boundary.  They have been 

        19          outside since day one.  They have road frontage. They 

        20          have uplands.  They are part wet and part dry. But -- 

        21          that's the difference.  They are outside the boundary 

        22          that we thought was important for managing a 

        23          ecosystem; and no one has ever disagreed with that.

        24               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor.

        25               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes. 


         1               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  It appears that we keep 

         2          coming back to the same place.  General Milligan 

         3          asked this question one hour ago.  It isn't whether 

         4          people believe there should be a town center, and I 

         5          am not trying to speak for my colleagues up there 

         6          here.  That appears to be pretty much, at least, a 

         7          general feeling that there should be.  

         8               The history of this project, I think, was better 

         9          than well enunciated by the Governor and how we 

        10          acquired a very large parcel of property in a very 

        11          quick time line to accommodate the need.  The 

        12          question -- and I just heard several members of the 

        13          environmental community suggest, I think, it isn't a 

        14          question of whether there should be a town center, 

        15          and it isn't a question of whether some P 2000 lands 

        16          should not be disposed of if it's in the best 

        17          interest of the State.  

        18               The question continues to come back to one 

        19          thing.  As I hear this thing shake out, somebody 

        20          needs to answer the General's question and simply 

        21          tell him that this, indeed, is the best parcel of 

        22          property for this town center, that a myriad of other 

        23          parcels have been considered and, for whatever reason 

        24          that someone can enunciate at that microphone, this 

        25          is the prime parcel of property for this town center, 


         1          and it passes the Litmus Test that I think has been 

         2          played out here this afternoon.  

         3               Can anybody answer that question?  

         4               By the way, just so you know, when we have been 

         5          working on this for hours, like I know my colleagues 

         6          have been up here, I have been working largely under 

         7          the premise that there was a vast amount of planning 

         8          that's been done on this particular issue that 

         9          somebody didn't toss a coin and pick this particular 

        10          parcel of property for a town center; but there was 

        11          good, firm, rationale as to why it was selected.  And 

        12          that knowing the long history of this parcel, that 

        13          the people who worked on putting this plan together 

        14          clearly understood the sensitivity that went along 

        15          with disposing of P 2000 property, or surplusing P 

        16          2000 property, and the fact that ultimately someone 

        17          just may ask the magic question, why this particular 

        18          parcel of property for this particular plan? 

        19               MR. BUTLER:  Good morning, Governor and Cabinet. 

        20          I am Van Ness Butler, County Commissioner for 

        21          District 5, which includes all of south Walton 

        22          County, 26 miles of the coastline there.  

        23               I was just looking through the minutes of our 

        24          last meeting when we adopted this plan here that 

        25          includes the town center; and at the meeting in 


         1          January of 1995, Mr. Murley made the motion to 

         2          approve the strategic plan document and the Trust 

         3          implementation plan document; and Mr. Wilson, who I 

         4          served on the Trust with for about two years, 

         5          seconded the motion, and it was unanimously adopted.  

         6               This site didn't, as you say, didn't come out 

         7          about by accident.  We studied all 53,000 acres in 

         8          south Walton County.  Pursuant to the legislative 

         9          directive that created the south Walton Conservation 

        10          and Development Trust, the Trust conducted an 

        11          environmental analysis of all 53,000 acres of south 

        12          Walton and a complete and environmental database from 

        13          new aerial infrared photogrammetry was created.  

        14               The analysis was conducted using the Division of 

        15          Forestry and the Florida Sanctuary Inventory of 

        16          characerizations of the landscape.  A series of 

        17          interactive meetings were held and discussed and 

        18          assess the potential for acquisition or disposition. 

        19               Based on that review, the Trust plan recommended 

        20          the following parcels that some have suggested as 

        21          being the alternate site.  This is miscellaneous 

        22          scattering of State-owned parcels distributed between 

        23          the McNamara (ph) and the new town site.  

        24               These parcels also have priority for 

        25          conservation, residential use with the emphasis on 


         1          retaining forestry activities.  These parcels range 

         2          from 10 to 50 acres.  Each parcel, regardless of the 

         3          size and basic density allow only one unit.  

         4               Conservation and residential development of 

         5          criterion and requirements shall be our additional 

         6          uses for those lands, including wetland mitigation 

         7          and innovative stormwater management.  This is the 

         8          alternative site they are discussing. 

         9               Putting the government functions on these lands 

        10          is in violation of the comprehensive plan.  The 

        11          development on these parcels would have a direct 

        12          effect on Hogtown Bayou.  

        13               The present site that we are supporting is three 

        14          to four miles from Hogtown Bayou.  The other 

        15          alternate site proposed would have direct runoff into 

        16          Hogtown Bayou and Churchill Bayou.  It's not suitable 

        17          based on traffic studies that were conducted by the 

        18          Trust.  And two of the parcels considered to have a 

        19          low ecological value are targeted by DEP for an 

        20          innovative stormwater treatment program.  

        21               The largest group of parcels with Highway 98 

        22          access total about 90 acres.  These were determined 

        23          to be a very high ecological significance, much 

        24          higher than the lands currently designated for the 

        25          town center.  


         1               One of the directions of the legislation 

         2          creating the Trust was, "The plan shall provide for 

         3          innovatively designed energy efficient future 

         4          development, adequate public facilities, which are 

         5          concurrent with development, and the acquisition and 

         6          disposition of public lands within the planning 

         7          area."  

         8               The scattering of government uses over the 

         9          landscape results in urban sprawl, more use of cars 

        10          and more pollution.  The appropriate place for the 

        11          new town center is where it is cited.  

        12               And we went through approximately two years and 

        13          an $800,000 appropriation from the Legislature, plus 

        14          an additional $250,000 to study this plan, which 

        15          didn't come about by accident.  

        16               The site also is in the exact geographic center 

        17          of south Walton County.  If you drew a radius around 

        18          the site, you would take in the entire south county; 

        19          you would also take in all of the developing area 

        20          north of Choctawhatchee Bay.  

        21               We are still part of Walton County.  We are 

        22          taking and serve the area south of Highway 20, a 

        23          rapidly developing area on the bay, so we would have 

        24          courthouse annex and all the government facilities to 

        25          serve that large population base that's developing 


         1          there.  

         2               In addition, St. Joe Paper Company is developing 

         3          property and probably will make an announcement the 

         4          first of next month to develop a large site in the 

         5          Seagrove area.  Also they own land in the Camp Creek 

         6          area and the Deer Lake area.  That they are, as I 

         7          understand it from Peter Rummel (ph), would be some 

         8          of their first lands that they developed.  

         9               So that right now the question that Mr. Milligan 

        10          asked about where the population base is, the largest 

        11          base is to the west of this site, but it will not be 

        12          10 years from now.  This will be, I think, not only 

        13          the geographic center, but the population center. 

        14          It's -- the St. Joe's development is going to make a 

        15          tremendous impact.  You already have Seaside, Grayton 

        16          Beach, Eastern Lake, Rosemary Beach, which is growing 

        17          rapidly.  

        18               I hope that addresses that issue.

        19               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So, Commissioner, I don't 

        20          mean to interrupt you, but if I heard you correctly, 

        21          and I think I did, your answer to the question was 

        22          that there was extensive research on not just this 

        23          parcel of property but two years of investigation of 

        24          other potential sites within that area, and that you 

        25          and -- not just you, but those involved determined 


         1          that this particular site was the most appropriate 

         2          for the town center that would serve the population, 

         3          not just south of Choctawhatchee Bay, but Walton 

         4          County in general.

         5               MR. BUTLER:  Yes, sir.

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  But that potential for 

         7          growth in the western part of south Walton County 

         8          would be one of the contributing factors that would 

         9          lead you to believe that this is an appropriate site.

        10               MR. BUTLER:  The greatest in the east part.

        11               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir, I am sorry. 

        12               MR. BUTLER:  Yes.  That's correct.  

        13               I am not sure I identified myself.  I am Van 

        14          Ness Butler, and I am a native of south Walton 

        15          County.  And, in fact, the third generation native. I 

        16          guess we natives are an endangered species.  

        17               We have our entire County Commission here today, 

        18          plus our constitutional officers, Mr. Bill Young, the 

        19          Chairman of the Commission, Randall Innfinger.  Joel 

        20          Call and Gordon Porter; and our constitutional 

        21          officer, Quinn McMillian, the Sheriff, and Bill 

        22          Fountain, the property appraiser, and Dan Bodiford, 

        23          the Clerk of the Court, and Sue Carter, the Tax 

        24          Collector. 

        25               Every one of them are concerned about this 


         1          issue.  

         2               Would you please stand up? 

         3               (Applause from the audience.) 

         4               MR. BUTLER:  I think this gives you a clear 

         5          indication of Walton County's support for this site 

         6          and their desire to meet the needs of their 

         7          constituents.  

         8               I don't suppose there is any point in recapping 

         9          this, you know, on the precession of how things 

        10          happened, I mean, the purchase in May of '92, and so 

        11          on, and the Legislature appropriating the money for 

        12          the study and all of that.  

        13               So if I can answer any other questions for you.

        14               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Any questions?

        15               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes, sir.  Just one quick 

        16          question.  

        17               Van, you made a statement that one package of 

        18          land that you did look at, 90 acres, is fronting on 

        19          98, not too far from the 30A intersection, and about 

        20          three or four miles, I guess, west of the proposed 

        21          site, that those 90 acres were of higher ecological 

        22          benefit or value than that which you have selected 

        23          for the town center? 

        24               MR. GUEST:  Yes, sir.  That was the 

        25          determination that was made. 


         1               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  By?  

         2               MR. BUTLER:  The Florida -- well, all of the 

         3          environmental studies that were done, there were a 

         4          combination of studies that were done, and it was -- 

         5          the determination was made by the Trust after they 

         6          got input from all the studies.

         7               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay.  Thank you.

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.  

         9               MR. BUTLER:  I -- you know, I really -- I --

        10               TREASURER NELSON:  I think that what the 

        11          Comptroller has raised a very important issue.  The 

        12          question is, is the land to the west more 

        13          ecologically sensitive than the present site? 

        14               MR. BUTLER:  That was the determination made. In 

        15          fact, that -- some of that land in that general area, 

        16          they felt should be acquired -- more should be 

        17          acquired to create a greenway from Topsail on the 

        18          Gulf to the Bay; and -- anyway, that was the 

        19          determination made by the Trust, and it was 

        20          thoroughly studied, believe me.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you. 

        22               MR. BUTLER:  Gentlemen, I -- you know, Walton 

        23          County is looking for you to honor your commitment to 

        24          Walton County.  We have worked so hard on this that 

        25          we are getting a little bit exasperated with it, and 


         1          I know it's been a long process and a lot of new 

         2          people on here, but it's in my mind that the Cabinet 

         3          made a commitment to the Walton County and the 

         4          Legislature to back it up, and we want to see some 

         5          action on it.  

         6               Thank you.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Mr. Commissioner, do you think 

         8          we might be in danger -- Mr. Commissioner?  

         9               MR. BUTLER:  Yes, sir.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I just wonder if you think we 

        11          might be in danger of setting a precedent if we kept 

        12          our word on this? 

        13               (Applause from the audience.) 

        14               MS. WETHERELL:  We have three speakers left on 

        15          the opposition side with seven minutes remaining.  If 

        16          I can go ahead and call on Manuel Fuller.

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  How much time is remaining?

        18               MS. WETHERELL:  You have got 13 minutes left for 

        19          comments.  I am not counting questions that you 

        20          asked.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  I thought you said 20 minutes 

        22          was set aside?

        23               MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir, we did.  And you have 

        24          had 13 minutes of actual presentations by the 

        25          opponents.


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  By the opponents? 

         2               MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.  I am not counting the 

         3          time y'all asked questions.

         4               GOVERNOR CHILES:  You mean George said all of 

         5          that in 13 minutes? 

         6               MS. WETHERELL:  George, plus three others.

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  My watch is not working.

         8               MS. WETHERELL:  I promise you we are keeping 

         9          time.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Go ahead. 

        11               MS. WETHERELL:  Manuel Fuller, David Glutton and 

        12          Virginia Simpson.  

        13               MR. FULLER:  Governor and Cabinet, I will depart 

        14          from my prepared statement.  I want to say that we 

        15          are glad to have this debate, and we are glad that 

        16          you voted the way you did in '92, and that's a heck 

        17          of a benefit for this county.  

        18               We do not support the option that is before you 

        19          today.  We would suggest two options.  

        20               One, evaluate the western parcels which lie 

        21          outside of the CARL boundary, the original as well as 

        22          the current.  We just had a discussion about that.  

        23               It is true, Commissioner Nelson, that there is a 

        24          significant parcel within that area.  The total area, 

        25          that's about a 90-acre, approximately 100-acre 


         1          parcel; but in those western areas outside the CARL 

         2          boundary, the total acreage is approximately 400 

         3          acres.  There are wetlands within that.  I think 

         4          probably half of those properties would not be 

         5          suitable.  That leaves about 200 acres.  

         6               We would request as an option that staff 

         7          evaluate those 200 acres and see if the public 

         8          facilities that are proposed for the town center 

         9          could be incorporated into that area.  We are talking 

        10          anywhere from 60 to 100 acres.  

        11               Another option that we would like you to 

        12          consider would be a reduced footprint size within the 

        13          proposed town center boundary to include the public 

        14          facilities only.  We believe that that -- that there 

        15          is a possibility where State agencies, such as the 

        16          State forest and the State parks could co-locate with 

        17          the local government and the government facilities on 

        18          a reduced footprint within the proposed town center. 

        19               And I have got -- I don't want to take all -- I 

        20          know we are running out of time.  I have got some 

        21          language that would address that staff could utilize 

        22          in developing another option, which could, we 

        23          believe, tie in with the P 2000 purposes, which would 

        24          include recreation and conservation with a reduced 

        25          footprint.  You could have the local government 


         1          offices, and you could have an office with the State 

         2          parks and the State forest to welcome a shared office 

         3          and welcomed to south Walton naturally concept, which 

         4          is really the big advantage that south Walton has 

         5          over a lot of its neighboring counties.

         6               We would like you to look at those options, and 

         7          we would like to work with you all closely in doing 

         8          that.  We are not just throwing this out here to 

         9          throw this thing off the track.  We have had informal 

        10          discussions, very pleasant discussions with 

        11          Commissioner Butler about the concepts.  And he had 

        12          not -- we -- there was no agreement there, but we 

        13          have sat down and talked about some other options. 

        14               And we would like to see options, one, the 

        15          question about the parcels the 400 acres that lie to 

        16          the west, there are some of those that have some 

        17          significant natural value or wetlands value.  We 

        18          think there are some, however, because of their very 

        19          isolated nature, that are right along Highway 98 and 

        20          some of the roads lining in there, there is a number 

        21          of 10 and a couple of 20-acre parcels that we think 

        22          might be legitimate that are uplands; and if those 

        23          roads weren't there, they would have some natural 

        24          value.  

        25               The proposal before you today, one of our 


         1          reasons that we have opposed it is the fact that it 

         2          is essentially contiguous with other State forest 

         3          land.  It's got the same kind of -- very similar 

         4          natural values to the lands that are east of it, 

         5          south of it and west of it.  And, in fact, it -- 

         6          those properties are in a lot better condition than a 

         7          lot of other lands that the State owned and has 

         8          purchased recently.  And we think it's got some 

         9          value.  

        10               So we would like you to consider two options and 

        11          as alternatives, as alternatives to this one.  

        12               And I will be glad to take any questions.  

        13               One thing, the new CARL boundary and the 

        14          discussion about the acquisition of additional 

        15          acreage, it's a very fast growing area.  That depends 

        16          on willing sellers.  And we think those would be 

        17          wonderful additions, and we support those.  We don't 

        18          know if we will ever have the opportunity to get 

        19          them.  

        20               Thank you.

        21               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir. 

        22               MS. WETHERELL:  David Gluckman, opponent, waives 

        23          his time; and Virginia Simpson is the last one on 

        24          this side. 

        25               MS. SIMPSON:  Good morning, Governor, Cabinet 


         1          members.  Thank you for taking the time.  I will be 

         2          very brief.  I can see I am sort of like the salmon 

         3          swimming upstream this morning, but I have done that 

         4          before.

         5               I represent the Choctawhatchee Audubon Society, 

         6          and I am the vice-president, and I am going to read a 

         7          statement prepared by our conservation chair, Bob 

         8          Lee, who I think you are quite familiar with. 

         9               On behalf of the Choctawhatchee Audubon Society, 

        10          we want to thank Comptroller Milligan and 

        11          Commissioner Nelson for making the effort to come to 

        12          south Walton several weeks ago.  Your decision on 

        13          giving up preservation land for a new town center 

        14          south of Choctawhatchee Bay will have crucial and 

        15          enduring impact on policy for State-owned lands.  Our 

        16          directors have reaffirmed Audubon's opposition to 

        17          this unwise proposal.  

        18               Several factors argue against concentrating new 

        19          developments south of the bay; traffic congestion, 

        20          hurricane evacuation, freshwater shortage and 

        21          wastewater burden on an already declining bay are 

        22          serious problems, any one of which should be enough 

        23          to deter the idea.  

        24               However, if it's decided that south Walton must 

        25          have a new town, why use preservation land? Thousands 


         1          of acres of potential tax base lie undeveloped.  Why 

         2          not use private land and let private interests drive 

         3          the initiative?  

         4               We urge you not to break faith with Preservation 

         5          2000 and to deny this disposal of State-owned land.  

         6          Future generations will be grateful that Florida had 

         7          the foresight to preserve everything possible within 

         8          south Walton's original CARL boundary.  

         9               And I would like to say, although it's not part 

        10          of this letter, that I agree with the previous 

        11          speaker.  Our main objection to this is that the land 

        12          in question lies within the original CARL boundary. 

        13          And if you have to sell some of the -- or give away 

        14          some of the Preservation 2000 land, we prefer that it 

        15          be land outside the original CARL boundary.  

        16               Thank you very much.

        17               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you ma'am. 

        18               MS. WETHERELL:  There is 13 minutes now 

        19          remaining for the proponents, and I will call two at 

        20          a time to save time.  

        21               Alise Erwin and Jim Resler (ph). 

        22               MR. RESLER:  I am Jim Resler.  I am president of 

        23          the San Destin Resorts.  We are the largest resort 

        24          and largest taxpayer.  We participated in this 

        25          process and looked at all the alternatives.  I think 


         1          there is a lot of citizen input.  We urge that you go 

         2          ahead and adopt this.  I don't think any site is 

         3          perfect.  There are going to be pluses minuses to all 

         4          of them, but I think this is the best one.  

         5               Thank you. 

         6               (Applause from the audience.) 

         7               MS. ERWIN:  Good morning, or afternoon, as the 

         8          case may be.  My name is A-l-i-s-e Erwin, and I am a 

         9          citizen.  Today, I am speaking on behalf of the 

        10          Library Friends.  

        11               I want to thank you all for taking your job 

        12          seriously and tell you that we are very proud to have 

        13          been a part of the citizen groups that have studied 

        14          south Walton County and what is best now and in the 

        15          future for the County.  Obviously, as the library 

        16          people, we are interested not only in the current 

        17          situation but in the future.

        18               I think the essential problem that we are having 

        19          in our county is that we can't get an absolute 100 

        20          percent guarantee that all of the rules and 

        21          regulations and promises are going to still be met 

        22          for the future generations.  

        23               Of course, we would like to think that the rules 

        24          and the plans are going to be observed.  We would 

        25          like to have that faith.  We are aware that it was 


         1          called a Trust plan, and we would like to be able to 

         2          trust that that will happen.  

         3               You, as the Cabinet, are the people who we have 

         4          to place the most trust in.  

         5               We, in the library, are interested in a place to 

         6          put a new building, but we are also interested in a 

         7          place that will observe the ecological 

         8          considerations, and we are on the same side in that.  

         9          However, we do know that there has been a great, 

        10          great deal of study by people far better than I am to 

        11          make decisions about what is the best location.  And 

        12          I would like to urge you to go along with those 

        13          recommendations and vote in favor of the new town 

        14          center.

        15               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am. 

        16               (Applause from the audience.) 

        17               MS. WETHERELL:  I am going to call next Bob Dean 

        18          and Lourdes Forhay (ph).  

        19               MR. DEAN:  Governor and Cabinet, my name is Bob 

        20          Dean.  I am the Director of Habitat For Humanity of 

        21          Walton County.  I represent the majority of 600 

        22          people that we just sent out our newsletter last 

        23          week, contributors and volunteers of Walton County. 

        24               Affordable housing is desperately needed in 

        25          Walton County.  The median income for the County in 


         1          1994 was $27,000.  Last year, the median income had 

         2          jumped to $33,000; and that means that the County is 

         3          growing at a fast pace.  And any businessman from 

         4          Rosemary Beach to Seaside to San Destin to Silver 

         5          Sands Shopping Center will tell you that their 

         6          biggest problem is to find employees, and the 

         7          employees' biggest problem is affordable housing, 

         8          what they can afford.  

         9               Habitat builds houses that are valued at resale 

        10          about $60,000, it costs us about 39,000.  And that 

        11          serves a segment of the population that makes income 

        12          from 12,000 to 24,000.  But then there is another 

        13          segment income from 24,000 to 36,000 that are still 

        14          within the median income bracket that does not have 

        15          affordable housing.  

        16               There is practically no housing available in 

        17          south Walton County at the $100,000 mark.  The 

        18          builders are busy building houses now at 300,000, 

        19          400,000 and 500,000.  And no one, except Max 

        20          Matthews, that right now that are addressing that 

        21          issue from a private standpoint of building 

        22          affordable housing.  

        23               So we have raised the awareness of the need for 

        24          affordable housing.  Some have suggested to reduce 

        25          the footprint of the town center.  Well, you don't 


         1          have a town, unless you have people living in it.  

         2               What a perfect opportunity for me working with 

         3          Habitat to be involved in the very beginning of 

         4          planning a new town where the kids can go to the 

         5          library, can go down to shop, for a day care center, 

         6          for this type thing.  It's -- you know, it's a 

         7          developer or one of my folks, it's a dream come true. 

         8               And if we miss this opportunity and say, no, 

         9          today, I assure you that it will never happen.  Some 

        10          would say, let's look at another location.  Well, 

        11          that's well and good, except are we going to go 

        12          through five more years of looking at another 

        13          location that was looked at once before?  Is the 

        14          Cabinet or the Legislature going to give us another 

        15          million dollars?  I think not.  

        16               I am not willing to put another five years into 

        17          this study, and I doubt if the Commissioners and a 

        18          lot of folks who have put many, many hundreds of 

        19          hours into this planning process; and Mr. Milligan, I 

        20          assure you that for the last five years the meetings 

        21          I have gone to, every side, pro and con, has been 

        22          there at those meetings.  And at this point in time, 

        23          when we start looking at other sites, you know, 

        24          that's inappropriate.  That should have been 

        25          addressed five years ago.  


         1               So I would ask you to say yes to the town center 

         2          and not to decrease the footprint of the town center, 

         3          but look at housing and the desperate need for 

         4          housing in this area.  

         5               Thank you. 

         6               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.

         7               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have a 

         8          question. 

         9               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question. 

        10               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You talk about 

        11          affordable housing in this area, with most homes 

        12          going for a couple $100,000 range.  What do you 

        13          anticipate an affordable housing will cost on this 

        14          footprint?  

        15               MR. RESLER:  On this footprint?  It depends on 

        16          what the cost is going to be.  If I can get the land 

        17          for what you gave for it, I can build $39,000 homes.

        18               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  How many want a 

        19          $39,000 home in south Walton County?

        20               MR. RESLER:  That's to be determined.  And I 

        21          that one of the recommendations in the Trust about a 

        22          year ago is that there is 50 sites, two concaves 

        23          addressed for affordable housing.  Not all of them 

        24          will be habitat houses that I can build for 39,000 

        25          that will appraise for 60 or 70, but there should be 


         1          some 100,000 or $125,000 homes in the area, too. 

         2          There is 50.  But 50 is really a drop in the bucket, 

         3          but it's a start.  And I am sure that Lourdes will 

         4          address this from the architectural standpoint, there 

         5          is other locations that the town center with a lot 

         6          more expensive affordable housing, but right now, no 

         7          one is building $100,00 affordable housing.

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.  

         9               MR. RESLER:  Anymore questions?

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.  

        11               MR. RESLER:  Thank you, Governor.  

        12               MS. FORHAY:  Hello, my name -- I am a resident 

        13          of Seagrove Beach, and my name is Lourdes Forhay.  

        14               Progress is the result of people's willingness 

        15          to accept each other's strides and build upon them. 

        16          The needs to provide decent housing is vital, and 

        17          that need is emphasized as the population of south 

        18          Walton County continues to grow.  

        19               The fact is growth cannot be stopped.  The truth 

        20          is that we have an opportunity to learn and teach our 

        21          children and neighbors how we might approach growth 

        22          in a sensible manner.  The impasse at this point is 

        23          not the appropriate density or location of the site 

        24          or the uses that have been interacted within the 

        25          plan.  This is not the problem.  


         1               The main concern is, do the County officials, 

         2          the State officials and the residents of south Walton 

         3          County have the courage and are forward thinking 

         4          enough to be committed to continue the process that 

         5          was started in 1992?  I believe we are.  

         6               I believe that the safeguards to carefully 

         7          control a successful outcome will be there.  The 

         8          restrictive deeds must be there.  The iron clad town 

         9          boundaries will be there.  All the issues that have 

        10          been raised will be addressed as the plan develops. 

        11          But the plan must continue to develop in order to 

        12          allow for decent affordable housing for young and old 

        13          alike.  To allow for this center to have a library, a 

        14          school and a college all within walking distances 

        15          from the housing component of the plan.  This is the 

        16          backbone of a sustainable community.  

        17               The housing component of the plan is crucial. It 

        18          is the component that creates the difference between 

        19          a sustainable community and not sustainable 

        20          community.  It allows for the idea of walkable 

        21          environments that will help resolve the traffic and 

        22          congestion problem caused by the dependents on the 

        23          automobile.  

        24               The automobile is here to stay.  The question 

        25          is, how much of our environment do we want to 


         1          sacrifice in order to reach a pharmacy or a moving 

         2          theater.  

         3               Thank you.  Please vote yes. 

         4               (Applause from the audience.) 

         5               MS. WETHERELL:  The final two speakers are 

         6          Cassie Keys and County Commissioner Bill Young.  

         7               MS. KEYS:  I waive my time and urge you to 

         8          support the town center.  

         9               Thank you. 

        10               MR. YOUNG:  Governor Chiles, distinguished 

        11          Cabinet members, I just want to thank you all and the 

        12          three of you in particular this morning who looked so 

        13          far down the road and protected our interests in 

        14          Walton County several years ago.  We are just very, 

        15          very grateful that you looked down the road and did 

        16          that.  

        17                Governor Chiles, Attorney General Butterworth 

        18          and Commissioner Crawford, the three of you were 

        19          looking out for us, and we greatly appreciate it. 

        20               It's been emphasized here this morning that a 

        21          great deal of study has been done on this situation. 

        22          The State, the Legislature, the Cabinet, many, many 

        23          dollars have been expended in studying this 

        24          particular problem.  As I understand it, a total of 

        25          about 1,050,000 at least; 250 of that was done on an 


         1          ecological study.  

         2               Many, many people were involved in this study, 

         3          as I recall and understand it.  They numbered not in 

         4          just the tens, but the low 100s.  A tremendous amount 

         5          of study was done in trying to pick the best 

         6          location.  And I think all of these people did a 

         7          wonderful job, and I just would like to ask you today 

         8          to just consider all of the massive amount of work 

         9          that has been done.  All of our County Commissioners 

        10          are here today to indicate our support of this 

        11          particular effort, and all of our constitutional 

        12          officers have all stood to show their support for it. 

        13               And we just ask you, as humbly and respectfully 

        14          as we can, to let us go ahead and fulfill what we see 

        15          as a vital necessity for Walton County and begin work 

        16          on this new town center and see if we can come up 

        17          with something that is very, very functional, 

        18          worthwhile and beneficial to the people of south 

        19          Walton, and at the same time, it will be very, very 

        20          environmentally sensitive.  

        21               Thank you very much.

        22               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir. 

        23               (Applause from the audience.) 

        24               MS. WETHERELL:  That concludes the speakers. 

        25               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor.


         1               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.  Just a couple of 


         3               One, my agency is responsible for the management 

         4          of this property, so we have taken, of course, a 

         5          close look at all the questions involved.  And there 

         6          are several questions that are before us, I think. 

         7          And unlike what he was trying to say, I don't think 

         8          he was separating the question.  

         9               The first question that Comptroller Milligan 

        10          raised was an excellent question is, is this a good 

        11          spot for the town center?  And I think the studies 

        12          and the local people have answered that question 

        13          quite adequately, that this is a very desirable spot 

        14          for the town center.  And I am at least satisfied 

        15          with that answer based on the testimony today. 

        16               The second question; is it reasonable for the 

        17          State to release this land from the forest project 

        18          that is an excellent project that we are having the 

        19          responsibility for managing?  And I think the answer 

        20          to that question is yes.  And we have looked at that 

        21          very carefully.  We love managed forest property in 

        22          the State.  We manage over a billion acres.  With 

        23          this additional 1,600, we hope to manage more.  

        24               The 400-plus acres we are talking about is not 

        25          that desirable as compared to the rest of the 


         1          acreage.  It was -- most of the area managed by the 

         2          previous owner, it's mostly clear-cut, it's very 

         3          disturbed property, it's planted out in slash pines; 

         4          it will take about 25 years for maturity.  

         5               From the standpoint of management, it is very 

         6          difficult for us to manage this kind of property 

         7          because of all the in-holdings there, the burnings 

         8          that have to take place are very difficult, the roads 

         9          that are in the area.  

        10               So from that standpoint, it's not the most 

        11          desirable piece out there.  If it was, we would be 

        12          fighting to keep it in the boundary.  But I think we 

        13          can release it from the forestry project and have a 

        14          tremendous project for, not only for Walton County, 

        15          but for the State.  And that goes back to the '92 

        16          vote for a lot of people here that purchased and 

        17          acquire that.  

        18               So I would like to move the approval of the 

        19          subject item and add some conditions.  I have passed 

        20          these conditions around.  I won't read all of them. I 

        21          think we haven't heard any oppositions to most of 

        22          them.  Maybe there is some question about one of 

        23          them.  

        24               The first condition is; all funds generated from 

        25          the sale of the property will be added to the funds 


         1          already identified for the acquisition of Point 

         2          Washington State Forest area.  

         3               Second, the Board of Trustees direct to 

         4          expedited acquisition of the Point Washington State 

         5          Forest portion of the CARL project, and that all the 

         6          deed restrictions are certainly to be included and 

         7          met; if any are not met, then the property would 

         8          divert back to the Board of Trustees.  

         9               The disposition of subject parcels will be 

        10          considered parcel by parcel, and the basis, on each 

        11          basis in south Walton County will be permitted to 

        12          purchase on those parcels needed for the public or 

        13          government use.  And that -- of course all those 

        14          issues will come back before us so we can make 

        15          individual determinations.  

        16               This determination should not be considered 

        17          precedent but scored further dispositions or 

        18          Preservation 2000 lands that were intended to be 

        19          acquired as a part of the planned CARL project.  

        20               And then lastly and number six; the Board of 

        21          Trustees directs Lemak (ph) to establish disposition 

        22          criteria for State-owned Preservation 2000 and 

        23          acquired lands and natural resource lands prior to 

        24          any further determination or dispositions of those 

        25          properties.  


         1               I think these conditions tie down the State's 

         2          interest and what's occurring here today and make 

         3          this a very viable and important project.  And it 

         4          does keep our word to the people of Walton County, 

         5          and that cannot be overlooked in its importance.  

         6               And with those conditions, I would like to move 

         7          the item.

         8               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a second? 

         9               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor, could I get a 

        10          clarification, please?  

        11               On paragraph four in the paper, you talked about 

        12          permitting the purchase of only those parcels needed 

        13          for public, slant, governmental use.  That precludes, 

        14          then, the discussion of any private use of 

        15          development, such as a habitat, the housing we were 

        16          just talking about.  

        17               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  The public purpose would 

        18          include -- it could include private use; but the -- 

        19          those determinations would be made by this panel on a 

        20          case-by-case basis as those individual properties 

        21          would --

        22               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I certainly could accept 

        23          the language as long as its understood that the 

        24          parcels would be looked at and determined as to 

        25          whether or not they were appropriate regardless of 


         1          whether they were for public or private use.

         2               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  That is the intent of 

         3          that number four. 

         4               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Governor.

         5               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am. 

         6               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  I also have some 

         7          question about number four, and maybe it's -- first, 

         8          a question, is it your determination in writing 

         9          number four that the disposition of each of these 

        10          parcels would be brought before this body 

        11          individually or as an entire parcel? 

        12               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I think it kind of 

        13          depends on how this thing transpires.  And once we -- 

        14          if, in fact, we make the decision today to allow this 

        15          to go forward, then the County and the private 

        16          interests have got to then respond as to exactly what 

        17          they want to do, and then they have to bring that 

        18          back to us.  The Secretary might be able to comment 

        19          on that as well. 

        20               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Well, Governor, it 

        21          would seem to me that, if, in fact, we are going to 

        22          go forward with this plan and, in fact, allow both 

        23          public and private, and I would suggest that number 

        24          four probably should say public, slash, private use, 

        25          that we, in fact, look at this as a collective 


         1          project, as a whole project.  And I would suggest 

         2          that a working group, whose mission it would be to 

         3          put together a comprehensive plan for this area, come 

         4          back with a recommendation so it would be a one time 

         5          deal where we would sea the entire project.  

         6               And I would suggest that the working group be 

         7          made up of one representative from DEP, one from 

         8          Community Affairs, one from the Florida Wildlife 

         9          Federation, one from Florida Audubon, one from Sierra 

        10          Club, and Beachton Bay, and then four representatives 

        11          from the Walton County Commission and Governor, 

        12          because you are the Chair of the Trustees, I would 

        13          suggest that your representative would be designated 

        14          chairman.  

        15               And with this group working together to bring 

        16          back the final plan, it would seem to me that they 

        17          wouldn't have to keep coming back on a per parcel 

        18          basis.  I don't think that it's fair to this group of 

        19          people, the County Commissioner, constitutional 

        20          officers and the residents to have to look at every 

        21          single one of these parcels individually.  

        22               And by this group working together, I would 

        23          think they could come up with a comprehensive plan 

        24          with a recommendation coming back to this body.  

        25               So I would like to substitute that for item 


         1          four.  Not -- I am not sure there was a second to the 

         2          first motion yet, but -- 

         3               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Wouldn't it be nice if 

         4          Commissioner Crawford would just agree to substitute 

         5          that in item four, and we don't have to vote on it?

         6               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I have no objection. 

         7               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Then I will second 

         8          the whole thing.

         9               MS. WETHERELL:  Governor, I need to make a 

        10          suggestion if I might, too.  

        11               Commissioner, on, item three, our General 

        12          Counsel says that the way that it's written could 

        13          cause a problem in being able to borrow funds.  And I 

        14          don't think that was your intent.  If you could 

        15          remove the reverter language, you won't have that 

        16          problem in the future borrowing money for these 

        17          transactions.  

        18               If you just strike the second sentence, it will 

        19          accomplish the same thing.  What we are saying if you 

        20          just leave the first sentence, if you need to convey 

        21          the town center area, include deed restrictions as 

        22          outlined by Elmax (ph) conditions and recommendations 

        23          to this board; because these deed restrictions are 

        24          already enforceable by the courts, and that would 

        25          accomplish your --


         1               COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I don't have any 

         2          objection to that.

         3               MS. WETHERELL:  So we are removing the second 

         4          sentence. 

         5               GOVERNOR CHILES:  So what you are doing, 

         6          Secretary, is sort of an amendment to what he is 

         7          doing? 

         8               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  A substitute to 

         9          item four.

        10               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, is it -- a substitute 

        11          normally carries it down, an amendment does not. 

        12               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Okay.  Whatever the 

        13          correct parliamentary procedure is.

        14               GOVERNOR CHILES:  If you are going to 

        15          substitute, then Commissioner Crawford is not 

        16          withdrawn to your substitute, so you're amending 

        17          yours.

        18               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Okay.  To delete 

        19          four and add the other language.

        20               GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  

        21               Yes, sir.  

        22               TREASURER NELSON:  Well, you have got an amended 

        23          version, and it's been seconded.  

        24               I am going to support the motion, because when 

        25          -- the question in my mind has, been where should the 


         1          town center be located, at the present site or in 

         2          another site?  

         3               Comptroller Milligan and I went out and looked 

         4          at both of those areas.  And I put the question to 

         5          Murley and several others today about the ecological 

         6          sensitivity of the western most site; and I got the 

         7          distinct impression from all of the people that I put 

         8          that question to, including Murley yesterday on the 

         9          telephone, that there is more ecological sensitivity 

        10          and more wetlands involved in the western most 

        11          particular location that we were looking at.  

        12               So I am prepared to support the motion.

        13               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there further discussion? 

        14               So many as heard signify by saying aye. 

        15               (Chorus of ayes.)

        16               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed?  No. 

        17               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.

        18               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Ayes have it. 

        19               (Applause from the audience.) 

        20               MS. WETHERELL:  Item 17 is modification of a 

        21          submerged land lease and placement of riprap. 

        22               COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Move approval, if it 

        23          hadn't been moved already.

        24               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

        25               GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and seconded; 


         1          without objection, it's approved.  

         2               MS. WETHERELL:  Substitute item 18 is a 

         3          submerged land lease, severance and placement of 

         4          riprap. 

         5               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         6               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.  

         7               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion and a 

         8          second?

         9               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Yes. 

        10               MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.

        11               GOVERNOR CHILES:  Without objection, it's 

        12          approved. 

        13               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  One quick 

        14          question, if I can, of Kirby Green.  

        15               Kirby, you know we are having some -- I know 

        16          you're attempting to identify some other use of 

        17          sovereign submerged lands from Gangling cruisers. Are 

        18          you able to keep track of these, how you are doing 

        19          that?  

        20               MR. GREEN:  Yes, sir.  We have had a problem 

        21          with that.  We have identified six that were 

        22          conversions of old commercial submerged land leases. 

        23               What we are seeing is they will move into a 

        24          commercial previously leased area and cause some 

        25          environmental damage along with increase in the 


         1          square footage that they would have to have under 

         2          lease to be able to carry out those activities.  

         3               So what we have done both on new leases that we 

         4          are sending out, renewals of leases, we are putting a 

         5          condition in it that requires the lessee to notify us 

         6          for any changes in commercial activities that may 

         7          occur at the site, so that environmentally we can 

         8          take a look at to make sure that they are not causing 

         9          other environmental harms associated with that change 

        10          in use.  And those have to come back to the Board, 

        11          come back to the Department to look at, and some of 

        12          those would have to come back to you.

        13               ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And you are also, 

        14          I believe, including new approval, modification of 

        15          renewal, special condition that approval future 

        16          policy with special conditions, the Board may adopt 

        17          restrictions in --

        18               MR. GREEN:  That's correct.

        19               MS. WETHERELL:  That concludes our agenda. 

        20               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Thank you very 

        21          much. 

        22               COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Motion to rise. 

        23               SECRETARY OF STATE MORTHAM:  Rise.  

        24               (Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded at 
                12:25 p.m.) 


         1                        C E R T I F I C A T E

         2      STATE OF FLORIDA   )

         3      COUNTY OF LEON     )

         4               I, DEBRA ROTRUCK KRICK, Court Reporter at 

         5      Tallahassee, Florida, do hereby certify as follows:

         6               THAT I correctly reported in shorthand the 

         7      foregoing proceedings at the time and place stated in the 

         8      caption hereof;

         9               THAT I later reduced the shorthand notes to 

        10      typewriting, or under my supervision, and that the 

        11      foregoing pages 10 through 127 represent a true, correct, 

        12      and complete transcript of said proceedings;

        13               And I further certify that I am not of kin or 

        14      counsel to the parties in the case; am not in the regular 

        15      employ of counsel for any of said parties; nor am I in 

        16      anywise interested in the result of said case.

        17               DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF AUGUST, 1997.




        21                                 __________________________

        22                                 DEBRA ROTRUCK KRICK

        23                                 Court Reporter