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          2                  T H E   C A B I N E T
          3             S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
          6                  STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
          7                  FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
                             ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
          8                  TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
                              IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
         10            The above agencies came to be heard before
              THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
         11   presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
              The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
         12   March 11, 1997, commencing at approximately 9:54 a.m.
         16                       Reported by:
         17                    LAURIE L. GILBERT
                        Registered Professional Reporter
         18                 Certified Court Reporter
                            Notary Public in and for
         19              the State of Florida at Large
                                100 SALEM COURT
         24                TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
          1   APPEARANCES:
          2            Representing the Florida Cabinet:
          3            LAWTON CHILES
                       BOB CRAWFORD
          5            Commissioner of Agriculture
          6            BOB MILLIGAN
                       SANDRA B. MORTHAM
          8            Secretary of State
          9            BOB BUTTERWORTH
                       Attorney General
                       BILL NELSON
         11            Treasurer
         12            FRANK T. BROGAN
                       Commissioner of Education
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1                        I N D E X
          2   ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
              (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
          4       Director)
          5    1                  Approved                  5
               2                  Approved                  6
          6    3                  Approved                  6
               4                  Approved                  7
          8   (Presented by Robert L. Bedford, Ph.D.,
                  Deputy Commissioner)
               1                  Approved                  8
         10    2                  Deferred                  9
               3                  Approved                 11
         11    4                  Good Cause               11
              (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
         13       Secretary)
         14    1                  Approved                 23
               2                  Approved                 23
         15    3                  Approved                 24
               4                  Approved                 24
         16    5                  Approved                 25
               6                  Approved                 27
              (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
         19       Secretary)
         20    1                  Approved                 28
               2                  Deferred                 28
         21    3                  Approved                 29
               4                  Withdrawn                29
         22    5                  Approved                 55
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1                         I N D E X
              ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
              BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
              TRUST FUND:
          5   (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
               1                  Approved                 57
          7    2                  Approved                 57
               3                  Approved                 57
          8    4                  Approved                 57
              Substitute 5        Approved                 78
          9    6                  Approved                 78
               7                  Approved                 78
         10   Substitute 8        Approved                 99
              Substitute 9        Approved                102
         11   10                  Deferred                102
                       CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            103
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                  March 11, 1997
          1                  P R O C E E D I N G S
          2            (The agenda items commenced at 10:44 a.m.)
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  And now we'll go to the
          4       agenda, Division of Bond Finance.
          5            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Bond Finance?
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, let's try the State
          7       Board of Edu-- oh.
          8            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 1 is approval of
          9       the minutes of the February 25th --
         10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         11            MR. WATKINS:  -- meeting.
         12            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         14            Without objection, the minutes are
         15       approved.
         16            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 2 is a resolution
         17       authorizing the issuance of up to four hundred
         18       million dollars in Tampa-Hillsborough County
         19       Expressway Authority Bonds for new projects and
         20       refunding existing --
         21            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         22            MR. WATKINS:  -- bonds.
         23            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            Without objection, it's approved.
          2            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 3 is a report on
          3       the sale of a hundred and eighty-nine million
          4       eight hundred forty thousand dollars in
          5       Education --
          6            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
          7            MR. WATKINS:  -- Capital Outlay Bonds
          8       for --
          9            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         11            Without objection, that's approved.
         12            MR. WATKINS:  Item number --
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  By the way, before we
         14       leave that one, that's a very impressive
         15       interest rate on that.  That's, I think, the
         16       best interest rate on PECO that I've seen since
         17       I've been here.
         18            MR. WATKINS:  This is a capital outlay
         19       issue, and it is a very good inter-- this is for
         20       local school districts --
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes.
         22            MR. WATKINS:  -- and we were very pleased
         23       with the bids that we got on those bonds.
         24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Should be.  That's a
         25       great rate.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good.
          2            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 4 is a report on
          3       the sale of forty-five million forty-five
          4       thousand --
          5            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.
          6            MR. WATKINS:  -- Department of
          7       Transportation --
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
          9            MR. WATKINS:  -- right-of-way refunding
         10       bonds.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         12            Without objection, that's approved.
         13            (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
         14       concluded.)
         15                             *
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of Education.
          2            DR. BEDFORD:  Governor Chiles, members of
          3       the State Board of Education, good morning.
          4            Item 1, minutes of the meeting held
          5       January 28th, 1997.
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
          7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          9            Without objection, that's approved.
         10            DR. BEDFORD:  Item 2, lease agreement
         11       between the State of -- the State Board of
         12       Education and South Florida Public
         13       Telecommunication, Inc., WXEL.
         14            I believe we have a request to defer.

         15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes, sir,
         16       Governor.  I believe some progress is being
         17       made.
         18            Dr. Reed, is that correct, and want about a
         19       two-month -- about a two-week deferral,
         20       I believe, on this.
         21            Governor, I move that we defer this to the
         22       next Cabinet meeting.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Motion to defer.
         24            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Second.
          2            Without objection, it's deferred.
          3            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor --
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am.
          5            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- however, on that
          6       particular item, when it does come back before
          7       us on March 25th, if we could have an actual
          8       lease agreement one way or the other, I would
          9       like something that we can actually deal with,
         10       so that everybody knows exactly where we stand.
         11       It just seems like this has gone on now for some
         12       time.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, that would be good,
         14       I think, if it could be done by that time, maybe
         15       to have everything in a -- at least an outline
         16       would be good.
         17            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  That would be good.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
         19            MR. OLENICK:  Mike Olenick.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
         21            MR. OLENICK:  Secretary, I just have a
         22       question.
         23            Is that -- the assumption then is that
         24       amendment or that assignment would be with
         25       the -- with Barry Tel., and a draft agreement
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       for this, or do you mean something else?
          2            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  No.  Basically I mean
          3       we need to come to a resolution.  We've got
          4       money out there on the table by some of these
          5       institutions, or at least one institution.
          6       I think they need to know, you know, where they
          7       stand.
          8            MR. OLENICK:  Okay.  I can -- and I guess
          9       I'm just trying to get some direction.
         10            I can have, by end of the week, an
         11       amendment or an assignment of that agreement.
         12       The agreement now is, as you know, with the
         13       State Board of Ed, and we'll call it WXEL.
         14            Barry, of course, has requested an
         15       assignment -- or requested they take over these
         16       assets and continue.
         17            I can have by the end of the week for your
         18       aides a draft agreement continuing in that
         19       vein.  But other than that -- and I guess that's
         20       what I was trying to get the direction.
         21            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I would be very
         22       comfortable with whatever Bob Bedford wants.
         23            DR. BEDFORD:  Great.
         24            MR. OLENICK:  Thank you.
         25            DR. BEDFORD:  Speaking of that new
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Porsche --
          2            No, that's not --
          3            Item 3.  Item 3 is Rule 6A-1.012, amendment
          4       to purchasing policy.
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
          6            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
          7            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         10            Without objection, it's approved.
         11            DR. BEDFORD:  Item 4 is a good cause item,
         12       presentation of the 1997 Legislative Programs
         13       for Public Schools K-12, Community Colleges, and
         14       the State University System.
         15            Frank Brogan, Commissioner of Education,
         16       will entertain any questions or concerns over
         17       K-12; we have Tom Furlong representing the
         18       Community Colleges; and Charlie Reed
         19       representing the University System.
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
         21       may I give --
         22            DR. BEDFORD:  I believe each of --
         23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- this to
         24       the --
         25            DR. BEDFORD:  -- you received --
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  --
          2       Commissioner first.
          3            DR. BEDFORD:  -- each of you received an
          4       agenda from one of the three -- this is --
          5            (Attorney General Butterworth presented
          6       Commission Brogan with a large hourglass.)
          7            DR. BEDFORD:  Commissioner, I think I
          8       understand this, sir.
          9            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Bravo.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That's all right.  That's
         11       a shorter time.  That's like the wife changing
         12       places, I think.
         13            DR. BEDFORD:  I think they should have at
         14       least given you a full amount of sand, sir.
         15       I --
         16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Any questions?
         17            Hearing none --
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That was good.
         19            DR. BEDFORD:  That was good.
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  You lay awake nights
         21       thinking this stuff up, Butterworth --
         22            DR. BEDFORD:  Are there any questions for
         23       either of the three agencies?
         24            TREASURER NELSON:  I do.
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            TREASURER NELSON:  Tell me about conversion
          2       to charter schools.
          3            In my home county --
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  What would you like
          5       to know?
          6            TREASURER NELSON:  -- we have a school
          7       within a school.  And it's trying to be a
          8       charter.  And apparently there's some
          9       administrative opposition to it down there.
         10            So I'm curious, is there some legislative
         11       changes that are being proposed that would
         12       address the problems of conversion to charter
         13       schools?
         14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Commissioner, to my
         15       knowledge, all of the amendments on charter
         16       schools are technical in nature.  I don't
         17       believe anyone would specifically -- and
         18       somebody from staff -- correct me if I'm
         19       wrong -- specifically the -- address the issue
         20       of school within a school.
         21            I'm well aware of that issue down there.
         22       And what a school within a school means to me,
         23       that's obviously being defined by some others as
         24       something different again.
         25            But I don't believe that any of the
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       proposed technical amendments would address that
          2       issue specifically, Commissioner.
          3            DR. BEDFORD:  The only thing that deals
          4       with the appeal would be the expansion from 30
          5       to 60 days so that school districts can come
          6       before you with an appeal.  But I don't believe
          7       it answers the Treasurer's question.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I don't think it's
          9       going to solve their problem, in other words.
         10            DR. BEDFORD:  Right.
         11            TREASURER NELSON:  Is there something that
         12       you'd like me to do about that?
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well, literally, it
         14       is one of those issues that I think is going to
         15       have to be -- resolve itself at the local level,
         16       Commissioner.  I just don't know of any other
         17       way, short of writing legislation, that would
         18       take into consideration every possible
         19       contingency.
         20            And this is one of those that we've run
         21       into that, again, I know I have strong feelings
         22       about, and I'm sure, based on your question, you
         23       probably do as well.
         24            But I think it's going to have to be a
         25       locally rectified issue.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            That one may come before the Cabinet, is
          2       that a --
          3            DR. BEDFORD:  Yes.
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- possibility?
          5            DR. BEDFORD:  One of the things that's
          6       going to happen is that the applicant will
          7       notify the School Board they are going to
          8       appeal.  Now, that may expedite the process.
          9       And that is in the new rule.
         10            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Now, you've got
         11       in the legislation zero tolerance.  Tell me
         12       what's happened that brought us to this in order
         13       to get districts to uniformly report school
         14       crime when, in fact, the State Board of
         15       Education had passed a zero tolerance rule two
         16       or three years ago.
         17            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  The operative phrase
         18       there -- or word I think is reporting.  We have
         19       passed a zero tolerance, and we expect it to be
         20       enforced.
         21            One of the things that we're seeing,
         22       however, around the state -- and that's why
         23       we've proposed legislation about it -- is that
         24       when a criminal act -- or I should suggest an
         25       alleged criminal act -- occurs on a school
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       campus, what this legislation would do is
          2       require that law enforcement be contacted.
          3            In our opinion, it's up to law enforcement
          4       to determine if, indeed, there was a criminal
          5       act which took place or not.
          6            In the State reporting, what we found was a
          7       large number, as we sadly usually do, of
          8       criminal acts that might involve weapons on
          9       campus, drugs and alcohol on campus, but a
         10       disproportionately low number which were
         11       actually reported to law enforcement.
         12            And we believe that, as we see on the
         13       streets with some juveniles, that if you simply
         14       shake your finger at them and look the other way
         15       time and time again, then they ultimately end up
         16       going before a juvenile judge.  And if it's
         17       their first offense, you may, by waggling your
         18       finger at them, actually done them a
         19       disservice.
         20            And I think through this process, by not
         21       reporting an alleged criminal act to
         22       law enforcement because it took place allegedly
         23       on a school ground, same effect, you may,
         24       in essence, be doing a disservice to that
         25       youngster who may then get the impression, as
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       might his peers, that it's one thing to perform
          2       a criminal act on public streets; it's another
          3       thing to perform a criminal act -- or
          4       participate in a criminal act on a school
          5       campus.
          6            We believe there is no difference.  A crime
          7       is a crime is a crime, law enforcement should be
          8       contacted.
          9            If we're really going to have zero
         10       tolerance, Commissioner Nelson, and I think all
         11       of us support that, then we're going to have to
         12       get serious about it.
         13            I would rather see a youngster involved
         14       with law enforcement early on to understand that
         15       that issue was unacceptable, and is going to
         16       lead to further problems if not corrected, than
         17       allow it to continue to the point where
         18       youngsters are confused when they finally do
         19       face severe penalties.
         20            And we hope, through this legislation,
         21       we'll not only see better reporting to the
         22       state; more importantly, we hope we'll see
         23       better coordination between law enforcement and
         24       local schools.
         25            TREASURER NELSON:  All right.  Frank, let
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       me ask you something in the State University
          2       System.
          3            With this increase in tuition in the
          4       University System, what will be the differential
          5       between Florida's university's tuitions and the
          6       national average?
          7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Chancellor, you want
          8       to answer that?
          9            DR. REED:  Commissioner Nelson, we're
         10       currently less than half of the national average
         11       right now in tuition.  Our tuition is about
         12       $1800.  And it's over $3700 nationally.
         13            We rank forty-ninth out of the fifty
         14       states.  Only Idaho charges less in tuition.  I
         15       never thought I'd live to see the day that
         16       Florida charged more -- or less than Texas and
         17       North Carolina, because they have a state policy
         18       to have low tuition, and high state aid.  And
         19       North Carolina and Texas now charge more tuition
         20       than Florida does.
         21            But this'll move us to about
         22       forty-seventh -- forty-sixth or forty-seventh,
         23       depending on what the other states do.
         24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And what about in
         25       terms of state contract -- or individual
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       contribution?
          2            MR. REED:  The individual contribution will
          3       be approximately 25 percent of the cost of an
          4       undergraduate education is what it's pegged to.
          5            So the State will pay 75 percent, those who
          6       benefit will be paying approximately 25 percent.
          7            TREASURER NELSON:  Dr. Reed, you're
          8       proposing a $50 technology fee per semester per
          9       student.  Can you tell us about that?
         10            DR. REED:  Commissioner Nelson, we are
         11       recommending that the Legislature provide the
         12       authority to the Board of Regents to have each
         13       university set a flexible technology fee up to
         14       $50 per semester.  Not to exceed $50 per
         15       semester.
         16            That will be converted to an hourly rate of
         17       approximately $4 per credit hour so that the
         18       part-time students that only take one course or
         19       so, don't pay the $50.
         20            On the other hand, students who take more
         21       than 12 hours, it will be capped at $50 so that
         22       they don't pay more than that.
         23            The University System has spent
         24       approximately the last two years studying, how
         25       are other states putting in place the technology
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       that our students need to be competitive and be
          2       able to go out into the workplace and perform.
          3            The states that we've looked at are
          4       Michigan, Pennsylvania, Virginia, California,
          5       Illinois, New York.  They are states that have
          6       outstanding university systems.
          7            All of those states are now charging a
          8       technology fee to their students to put the
          9       infrastructure all the way from the fiber-optic
         10       systems that need to be in the dormitories and
         11       the student centers and the classrooms, to
         12       providing access to personal computing for our
         13       students.
         14            About 50 percent of our students arrive on
         15       the campus with laptop computers.  The other
         16       50 percent don't have it.  And I can tell you,
         17       that is something that we are concerned about,
         18       because having access to the Web is very
         19       important in the universities.
         20            Our digitized library systems now,
         21       electronic library systems, are providing access
         22       to students to all different kinds of scientific
         23       journals that are required to be read by our
         24       faculty members.  So we're trying to even that
         25       out and provide access.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            In order to provide that access, we've got
          2       to purchase many more servers on the campuses,
          3       modems for our students for local dial-up.
          4            We believe that the $50, or not more than
          5       $50 technology fee, frankly, will be less than
          6       what current students are paying themselves.
          7            We can negotiate a much better fee with --
          8       for instance, America Online, who are now
          9       charging $20 a month for access to the Web.  We
         10       know we can negotiate a fee less than that, and
         11       that the students would pay no more than $50 to
         12       get access.
         13            We want every student in the university
         14       system, when they register, to get an E-mail
         15       address, to get an account number, to get on the
         16       World Wide Web.
         17            Secretary Mortham's people in the library
         18       system have been helping us.  We're purchasing
         19       digitized library materials like the Britannica
         20       Encyclopedia.
         21            We can purchase that as a system much, much
         22       cheaper than the 28 community colleges and the
         23       ten universities individually can purchase that
         24       intellectual property.  And so that's the
         25       direction that we're going with the $50
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       technology fee.
          2            It's a competitiveness that we've got to be
          3       prepared to have in place.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
          5            TREASURER NELSON:  But -- by the payment of
          6       that $50 fee, a student, no matter whether they
          7       lived on campus or off campus, still could have
          8       their account and --
          9            DR. REED:  That is correct.
         10            TREASURER NELSON:  -- connect --
         11            DR. REED:  And they will have access
         12       through a local telephone number to get on the
         13       Web, to communicate with their faculty, to
         14       communicate through E-mail, and to access the
         15       library and other digitized materials.
         16            TREASURER NELSON:  That's good.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
         18            DR. BEDFORD:  Any other?
         19            Thank you.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That the end?
         21            DR. BEDFORD:  That's it.
         22            (The State Board of Education Agenda was
         23       concluded.)
         24                             *
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Florida Land and Water
          2       Adjudicatory Commission.
          3            DR. BRADLEY:  Governor, would you like to
          4       do the Administration Commission first?
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          6            DR. BRADLEY:  Okay.  Thank you.
          7            Item number 1, recommend approval of the
          8       minutes of the meeting held February 25th --
          9            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         10            DR. BRADLEY:  -- 1997.
         11            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         12            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Approved.
         14            Without objection, it's approved.
         15            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 2, recommend
         16       approval of the transfer of general revenue
         17       appropriations and administered funds, State
         18       Court System.
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         22            Without objection, it's approved.
         23            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 3, recommend
         24       approval of the transfer of general revenue
         25       appropriations in the Department of Children and
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Families.
          2            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
          3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          5            Without objection, that's approved.
          6            (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
          7            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 4, recommend
          8       approval of a temporary transfer of six million
          9       nine hundred and fifteen thousand sixty-four
         10       dollars to the Department of Environmental
         11       Protection from various Department of
         12       Environmental Protection trust funds in the
         13       State Treasury to the Grants and Donation Trust
         14       Fund to resolve cash deficiencies for Federal
         15       grants that are --
         16            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         17            DR. BRADLEY:  -- on a reimbursement basis.
         18            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         20            Without objection, it's approved.
         21            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 5, recommend
         22       approval of the transfer of general revenue
         23       appropriations in the Department of Health.
         24            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          2            Without objection, it's approved.
          3            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 6 is recommend
          4       entering the final order granting the
          5       School Board's amended petition for exemption
          6       from certain requirements of Chapter 120.
          7            I have some folks here who would like to
          8       present.  Perhaps if I could introduce them --
          9            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I'd like to move
         10       approval --
         11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll second.
         12            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- to grant exemption.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  It's been
         14       moved and --
         15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         16            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
         18            Listen --
         19            DR. BRADLEY:  Well, would you like to hear
         20       from Senator Williams?
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Fine.
         22            DR. BRADLEY:  And we also have, I think,
         23       Representative Crady, a Scott Hilliard, who
         24       would be up here, and --
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Senator.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            SENATOR WILLIAMS:  Thank you.
          2            Governor, members of --
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          4            SENATOR WILLIAMS:  -- the Cabinet.
          5            Last year, when we totally rewrote, for the
          6       first time in about 20 years, the Administrative
          7       Procedures Act, there was one exception that we
          8       failed to include in that, and that is an
          9       exception for the 67 school districts in
         10       Florida.
         11            And the bill as it is -- or the law as it
         12       is now, requires that they publish in the
         13       Florida Administrative Weekly, and there was not
         14       an intent to do that.
         15            We have a glitch bill that we're working on
         16       that will include that exception.  And I do
         17       strongly recommend that you do that.  That will
         18       save our school districts some expense between
         19       now and the time that we get our glitch bill
         20       done.
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Senator, we've had a
         22       question about the community colleges.  My
         23       understanding, we're going to extend this at the
         24       next Cabinet meeting to the community colleges.
         25            Are they included in the glitch bill as
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       well?
          2            SENATOR WILLIAMS:  Well, that is an issue
          3       that we are talking to them, and I understand
          4       some of the water control districts also are
          5       looking at that.
          6            But we have not made a decision as to
          7       whether we believe that all of those special
          8       groups should be exempted from 120.
          9            But we -- I am talking to them.  And
         10       whatever we believe is right there, we will
         11       include in the glitch bill, Commissioner.
         12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, sir.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
         14            SENATOR WILLIAMS:  Thank you.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Appreciate your
         16       appearance.
         17            DR. BRADLEY:  I think that's --
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and
         19       seconded.
         20            Without objection, it's approved.
         21            (The Administration Commission Agenda was
         22       concluded.)
         23                             *
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            DR. BRADLEY:  The --
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Florida Land and Water
          3       Adjudicatory Commission.
          4            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 1 is request
          5       approval of the minutes of --
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move the minutes.
          7            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          9            Without objection, they're approved.
         10            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 2 is request
         11       deferral of this issue to March 25th, 1997 --
         12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll move the
         13       deferral.
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         15            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
         16            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         18            Without objection, it's approved.
         19            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 3 is request
         20       authorization for the secretary of the
         21       Commission to enter draft final order.
         22            You, I believe, have in front of you some
         23       written comments from Mr. and Mrs. Jacob, since
         24       they're unable to attend this meeting, and
         25       I think you have those in front of you.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            We're requesting authorization to enter the
          2       order.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?
          4            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          7            Without objection, it's approved.
          8            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 3, this item was
          9       withdrawn, I believe.
         10            Number 4.  I'm sorry.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Four is withdrawn.
         12            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 5 is authorize
         13       the Secretary of the Commission to enter a draft
         14       final order.
         15            We have a number of people here to speak on
         16       this if -- with your approval, we'd like to
         17       limit the minutes on each side to 10 minutes to
         18       each side.
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very good.
         20            DR. BRADLEY:  Okay.  The first person to
         21       speak will be Steve Pfeiffer, Assistant
         22       Secretary of the Department of
         23       Community Affairs.
         24            He has about 3 minutes.
         25            MR. PFEIFFER:  Secretary Murley is speaking
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       before a legislative committee, and he asked
          2       that I address these issues with you this
          3       morning.
          4            This case involves a development order
          5       that's issued by Monroe County within the area
          6       of Critical State Concern in the Florida Keys.
          7            The developer is Charles River
          8       Laboratories.  CRL uses Key Lois and Raccoon Key
          9       within the Florida Keys for breeding rhesus
         10       monkeys.  They're used for research.
         11            At one time, there were as many as
         12       6,000 monkeys on these two islands.  There are
         13       now approximately 200 monkeys on Key Lois, and
         14       1,000 on Raccoon Key.
         15            The development order was issued after the
         16       facts -- fact.  In other words, CRL undertook
         17       the development activity without any permit, and
         18       then after being told by Monroe County that a
         19       development order was required, applied for it,
         20       and Monroe County issued it.  The development
         21       order allowed CRL to construct the field cage on
         22       Key Lois, and three feeding stations on --
         23            (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
         24            MR. PFEIFFER:  -- Raccoon Key that they had
         25       already constructed.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1              The Department appealed the development
          2       order in accordance with our responsibilities
          3       under Chapter 380, Florida Statutes.  A formal
          4       administrative hearing was conducted by an
          5       Administrative Law Judge.  He issued a
          6       recommended order, and that is what is before
          7       you this morning.
          8            I want to emphasize several of the
          9       administrative law judge's findings.  First, the
         10       use that CRL makes of the two islands is
         11       inconsistent with the offshore island
         12       designation, or OS designation, that is set out
         13       in the Monroe County code.  CRL's use of the
         14       islands for commercial multi-raising enterprises
         15       is a nonconforming use.
         16            Second, the two Keys are vulnerable to
         17       hurricanes, and the structures on them will
         18       likely be obliterated if a major hurricane were
         19       to strike the area.
         20            Third, the building activity undertaken on
         21       these two islands by CRL is development, as
         22       defined by the Monroe County code.
         23            Fourth, a building permit from
         24       Monroe County was required for the building
         25       activity.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            Fifth, the open space analysis performed by
          2       CRL was flawed, and the structures do not comply
          3       with the open space requirements under the
          4       Monroe County land development regulations.
          5            Sixth, the structures do not comply with
          6       shoreline setbacks required by the Monroe County
          7       land development regulations.
          8            Most significantly, the hearing officer
          9       found that in the process of pulling leaves off
         10       the mangroves, the monkeys strip bark and break
         11       branches from the mangroves.  The adverse impact
         12       to the mangroves is evident, with dead mangroves
         13       being observed in large quantities on both
         14       islands.
         15            Because Key Lois is a sand key, the absence
         16       of mangroves to stabilize its shorelines, and to
         17       break or absorb wave energy, has contributed to
         18       erosion.
         19            Nutrients from fecal waste and food reach
         20       the nearshore waters of both islands.  The
         21       excessive nutrient loading has contributed to
         22       algal blooms and the degradation of nearshore
         23       waters.
         24            Finally, the subject permit --
         25            (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            MR. PFEIFFER:  -- does not comply with the
          2       Monroe County Comprehensive Plan and land
          3       development regulations, and no changes to the
          4       permit would render them consistent.
          5            Now, as the Administration Commission, you
          6       have recently taken some of the most dramatic,
          7       and I believe, important action that has ever
          8       been taken with regard to protection of the
          9       fragile and precious resources of the
         10       Florida Keys.
         11            You determined last year that the
         12       Comprehensive Plan adopted by Monroe County was
         13       not consistent with state law, and you directed
         14       that important steps be taken to eliminate the
         15       negative impact of cesspits and septic systems
         16       in the Florida Keys.
         17            Together with our partners, which include
         18       the Department of Environmental Protection, the
         19       Department of Health, the Federal Army Corps of
         20       Engineers, and Monroe County, we are striving to
         21       develop advanced wastewater treatment
         22       facilities, both systems and individual
         23       facilities that will replace the existing
         24       systems, and that will stop the degradation of
         25       nearshore waters and the threat that that
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       degradation causes to the coral reef systems in
          2       the Keys.
          3            We believe that it would be dreadfully
          4       inconsistent for us to insist on these actions
          5       being taken by human inhabitants, that is going
          6       to cost them money, that is going to force them
          7       to belly-up to improve their septic systems,
          8       while at the same time, allowing degradation of
          9       the environment they are witn-- we are
         10       witnessing on Key Lois and Raccoon Key.
         11            We recognize that the action that is being
         12       recommended by the staff, which the Department
         13       supports, is a first step.
         14            The Department of Community Affairs has,
         15       under the proposed order, been directed to
         16       initiate enforcement action.  We're prepared to
         17       do that, and will do that when this order is
         18       signed.
         19            And it would be our intent to pursue that
         20       enforcement action vigorously.
         21            The Department of Environmental Protection
         22       and the Game and Fresh --
         23            (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
         24            MR. PFEIFFER:  -- Water Fish Commission
         25       have been in active discussions with us.  They
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       also are taking action with regard to the issue
          2       of -- of monkey farming on these Keys.
          3            The Department of Environmental Protection
          4       has legal proceedings that are pending with
          5       regard to settlement agreements that were not
          6       complied with, and will activate those
          7       proceedings.
          8            And I believe is scheduled to report to you
          9       two meetings from now.
         10            The Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission
         11       also has some orders -- has a recommended order
         12       before it with regard to conditions that it has
         13       imposed on continuing breeding of monkeys on
         14       these islands.
         15            The Department of Community Affairs
         16       supports the staff recommendation.
         17            I would be happy to answer any questions.
         18            Thank you.
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
         20            DR. BRADLEY:  Next we'd like to hear from
         21       Bob Routa of -- representing Charles River
         22       Laboratories.
         23            MR. ROUTA:  Good morning, Governor, members
         24       of the Board.  I'm Bob Routa of Tallahassee
         25       representing Charles River Laboratories.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            Charles River Laboratories is a nationally
          2       respected public health firm, and has been
          3       operating its monkey breeding facilities in the
          4       Florida Keys since the early 1970s.
          5            As it's come into the Keys, it received all
          6       necessary permits from all of the affected
          7       agencies, and it has been caught up in changing
          8       environmental times.
          9            It received its first permit from the Board
         10       of Trustees in the early 1970s to blow a channel
         11       out with a tugboat.  Now, we understand that's
         12       not being done today.  But that sets the
         13       framework for the way this company started with
         14       a lot of early companies in the Keys.  And the
         15       company has had to adapt to changing
         16       environmental conditions.
         17            This argument is based upon a record on
         18       appeal.  We have a continuing objection to
         19       matters outside the record, and parties outside
         20       of the record participating.
         21            But a lot of questions have been raised.
         22       First and foremost, why is Charles River raising
         23       these animals in the Keys?
         24            Well, the first exhibit I brought, which
         25       was Charles River's Exhibit number 18, is a
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       letter to the Governor dated June 27th, 1996.
          2       It's from the United States Department of Health
          3       and Human Services.
          4            Part of the things that are related there,
          5       it says, thousands of rhesus monkeys produced by
          6       Charles River Laboratories on these islands has
          7       served as extremely valuable models for
          8       biomedical research inception to biologically
          9       improve the quality of human health.
         10            These rhesus monkeys breeding operations
         11       serve as a vital national resource for numerous
         12       human health related investigations, including
         13       many AIDS research projects.
         14            Governor, members of the Board, this is a
         15       balancing of competing national interests, and
         16       we know there has been a great deal of concern
         17       lately about public health.
         18            We have been dealing with the
         19       recommendation of Judge Arrington, which said
         20       that Charles River Laboratories should not have
         21       to demolish its structures, but should have the
         22       opportunity to seek a variance and a
         23       comprehensive plan amendment.
         24            It is only very recently we have learned of
         25       the staff recommendation calling for the
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       demolition of these particular structures.
          2            And the next question is, what are the
          3       structures?
          4            This is an enlargement of Charles Rivers'
          5       Exhibit number 5, which is a photograph of the
          6       three structures at issue on Raccoon Key.  These
          7       are trapping structures, trapping and feeding
          8       structures.  These are the way that the animals
          9       are removed from the islands.  They're simple
         10       structures, they have metal sides, the animals
         11       can go into them to obtain food.
         12            When it's necessary to trap the animals,
         13       the side entrances are closed, the animals go
         14       over the top, they're unable to come back out.
         15       And that is the way that the animals are removed
         16       from the islands.
         17            There are three of these structures on
         18       Raccoon Key that has the largest free range
         19       population remaining.
         20            If we take these structures down, there
         21       will be no way to get the animals off the
         22       islands.  I wonder if staff is suggesting that
         23       we shoot the animals, because that's about what
         24       we'd be left with.
         25            And these structures were mandated by this
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Board that we build these structures.
          2            Charles River Laboratories entered into
          3       consent orders with the Department of
          4       Environmental Regulation to change the operation
          5       to go from a free range activity, to a caged
          6       activity.  And we were instructed and directed
          7       by the Department of Environmental Regulation to
          8       build these three structures in these three
          9       locations.
         10            And then those consent orders were
         11       incorporated into a consent judgment between
         12       Charles River and the Board of Trustees, which
         13       was approved by the Governor and Cabinet as the
         14       Board of Trustees, directing us to build these
         15       structures.  These are the same structures now
         16       that staff is suggesting that we destroy.
         17            Very briefly, this is a photograph, CRL
         18       Exhibit 4, of the one structure at issue on
         19       Key Lois.  This structure -- this footprint of
         20       this cage has been there since the early 1970s.
         21       It had some solid sides that was pre-built into
         22       a fenced field cage structure, again in direct
         23       response to the consent order entered into with
         24       the Department, and the consent judgment entered
         25       by Judge Taylor down in the Florida Keys.  And
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       this is what staff is suggesting you direct us
          2       to remove.
          3            Where are we going to put the animals if we
          4       take out the field cages?  How can we catch them
          5       if we take out the traps?
          6            There is a tremendous amount of
          7       misinformation that is being generated.  There's
          8       a great deal of information in the press, by
          9       telephone -- television, news reports that have
         10       been provided to the Board, and a lot of
         11       information that is simply not true.
         12            Judge Arrington sat in this case, looked at
         13       the evidence, and did not recommend these
         14       structures be taken out.
         15            Just to demonstrate what I've been saying,
         16       this is -- get it oriented properly.
         17            This is the DCA's Exhibit Number 2.  This
         18       is Key Lois.  This is the breeding pen that is
         19       at issue.
         20            This is CRL's Exhibit 9.  This is directly
         21       from the consent order.
         22            Here it is right here, C3.  Identically the
         23       same location.  We were told to build it.  Now
         24       staff is asking you to tell us to take it out.
         25            Similarly, CRL Exhibit 10, taken directly
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       from the consent order.  This also is in the
          2       consent final judgment.  Feeding station 1, 2,
          3       and 3.  Here we have them.  The permit documents
          4       at issue, 1, 2, and 3.  Identical location.
          5            Almost identical.  The Hearing Officer
          6       found, based on testimony in the record, that in
          7       the field, the Department of Environmental
          8       Regulation asked us to move the location of
          9       these structures slightly.  So they were moved,
         10       and that's where we got in trouble, because we
         11       were asked to move them to less environmentally
         12       sensitive areas by the Department of
         13       Environmental Regulation field biologists.
         14            We are really between a rock and a hard
         15       place.  We have to provide contractual
         16       obligations for these animals for public health
         17       purposes.  We have to trap them with the very
         18       traps that you're being asked to tell us to take
         19       out.  Everyone agrees that we should reduce the
         20       free range population.  But staff is telling us
         21       to take out the traps that do it.  This makes no
         22       sense.
         23            We just -- we will not be able to continue
         24       reducing the free range population.  And
         25       Charles River Laboratories is voluntarily
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       reducing the free range population in excess
          2       above what was required in the consent orders.
          3            We ask that you consider Judge Arrington's
          4       recommendation.  It's a reasonable
          5       recommendation.  We ask that you not direct us
          6       to remove the very structures which are the
          7       integral part of reducing the environmental
          8       impact.
          9            Be glad to answer any questions.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question?
         11            Thank you, sir.
         12            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor?
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
         14            TREASURER NELSON:  I'd like the Department
         15       to respond.
         16            Could a representative of the Department --
         17            Would you address the specific questions
         18       that the gentleman has raised?
         19            MR. PFEIFFER:  First off, with the -- with
         20       regard to the issue of removal of the cages.
         21            Staff has recommended that the Department
         22       initiate an enforcement action that would direct
         23       itself toward removal of the cages that were
         24       built inconsistently with Monroe County land
         25       development regulations.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            That enforcement action --
          2            TREASURER NELSON:  I don't understand what
          3       that meant.
          4            MR. PFEIFFER:  All right.
          5            TREASURER NELSON:  What's in front of us is
          6       a FLAWAC recommendation that is to enter a draft
          7       final order requiring removal of the feeding
          8       station and breeding pens.
          9            Now, would you put it in the context of
         10       what's before us?
         11            MR. PFEIFFER:  Well, perhaps if I could
         12       consult with Ms. Leighty.  If I have -- am
         13       holding the wrong order in my hand, I need to
         14       know that.  I --
         15            It's the bottom of page 5 of the order,
         16       Treasurer Nelson, that provides that the
         17       Commission would direct the Department to
         18       immediately begin an enforcement action for the
         19       removal of the four subject structures.
         20            And I'm sorry I misunderstood your
         21       question.
         22            And that the removal of these structures
         23       must comply with the Monroe County land
         24       development regulations.
         25            That would be a new proceeding.  That
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       proceeding is somewhat different than this one,
          2       in that the Department of Community Affairs
          3       would have final order authority.
          4            That proceeding also would be subject to
          5       this developer's right to request a formal
          6       administrative hearing.  And all of the issues
          7       with regard to removal of the cage and impact of
          8       removal of the cages would have to be addressed
          9       in that proceeding in a formal hearing before an
         10       Administrative Law Judge, just as this one was.
         11            TREASURER NELSON:  Well, can you address
         12       the equity of the argument that the gentleman
         13       just raised.
         14            MR. PFEIFFER:  Yes, sir.  In the first
         15       place, there was a consent order issued between
         16       the Department of Environmental Protection -- or
         17       excuse me -- the Department of Environmental
         18       then Regulation, and this developer.
         19            The Department of Environmental Protection
         20       contends that the consent agreement has never
         21       been complied with.  The Department of
         22       Environmental Protection contends that the cages
         23       were not located in the manner that was
         24       specified in the consent order.  Those are
         25       issues that have been raised in Circuit Court,
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       and are eligible to be raised again by the
          2       Department of Environmental Protection.
          3            One of the provisions of the consent order
          4       was that the cages would be built consistently
          5       with local government, land development
          6       regulations, and permitting requirements.
          7            That was not done, and that's what this
          8       hearing -- this hearing officer -- this
          9       recommended order states as findings of fact
         10       from the Administrative Law Judge.
         11            So what they were required to do is to get
         12       a permit from the -- from Monroe County, and to
         13       build the cages consistently with Monroe County
         14       land development regulations, and that is what
         15       they did not do.  And that's the subject of this
         16       proceeding.
         17            TREASURER NELSON:  Do you contend that they
         18       are in a location separate from what the consent
         19       order allowed?
         20            MR. PFEIFFER:  I believe that that is an
         21       issue of fact that would need to be resolved in
         22       the judicial proceeding, Mr. Nelson.
         23            But it would be our -- our contention that
         24       they did not construct those cages consistently
         25       with the locational requirements.  In fact, the
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       consent order required that representatives of
          2       the Department of Environmental Protection would
          3       be at the site, lay flags, these kinds of
          4       things.
          5            I'm certainly talking about things that are
          6       outside the record of this case.  But it is the
          7       contention of the Department of Environmental
          8       Protection that they were not constructed in
          9       accordance with the consent decree.
         10            We feel that there are two possible
         11       approaches to be taken here, and one is to
         12       develop a comprehensive system for eliminating
         13       the free ranging of monkeys on this island so
         14       that they would be in cages, and be in cages
         15       that are constructed in a manner that's
         16       consistent with the land development regulations
         17       in Monroe County.
         18            If it can't be consistent with the land
         19       development regulations in Monroe County, it is
         20       done in a manner that will protect the crucial
         21       resources, being the mangroves and nearshore
         22       water quality.
         23            So any system that is devised for continued
         24       monkey breeding on the islands, we contend,
         25       should be done in a manner that would protect
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       the mangroves; protect nearshore waters; and, in
          2       view of the rather long history of this project,
          3       ensure compliance through a bond.
          4            Alternatively, the island should not be
          5       used any longer for monkey breeding --
          6            TREASURER NELSON:  Is --
          7            MR. PFEIFFER:  -- in our view.
          8            TREASURER NELSON:  -- is there a question
          9       of fact that still needs to be determined here
         10       that you would take to a separate proceeding,
         11       and that fact would be determined?
         12            MR. PFEIFFER:  As to whether the cages
         13       would be removed?
         14            TREASURER NELSON:  As to the location of
         15       the cages, and their adequacy and so forth,
         16       according to the original consent order.
         17            MR. PFEIFFER:  Yes, sir.
         18            TREASURER NELSON:  There is?  And what --
         19            MR. PFEIFFER:  I think that there are
         20       potentially issues of fact.  An enforcement
         21       action would begin with a Notice of Intent
         22       issued by the Department of Community Affairs
         23       that would give the developer an opportunity to
         24       request a formal hearing, and to -- at that
         25       point assert whether there are issues of fact.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       And I think, potentially, certainly there are
          2       issues of fact.
          3            The issue of fact that we think is very
          4       clear in the record of this case that is before
          5       you is that these cages were constructed
          6       inconsistent with the Monroe County
          7       Comprehensive Plan, and inconsistent with the
          8       Monroe County land development regulations.
          9            And that's the ultimate conclusion that
         10       we're asked to be reached -- we're asking be
         11       reached here.
         12            TREASURER NELSON:  And is that the issue
         13       that you are asking us to conclude by this
         14       vote?
         15            MR. PFEIFFER:  Yes, sir.  And it's what the
         16       hearing officer determined is a fact, and what
         17       he determined is a -- the legally correct
         18       determination based on the facts.
         19            MR. ROUTA:  Governor, may I respond to that
         20       very briefly?
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Quickly.
         22            MR. ROUTA:  This is an example of the
         23       incorrect information that is being given to
         24       this Board.  We went through a very expensive
         25       administrative hearing before Judge Arrington.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            The issue was just what counsel for the
          2       Department now wants us to go through another
          3       administrative hearing to contest.
          4            Finding of fact 66:  The structures
          5       referred to by the consent order is FS2, FS3,
          6       and FS4 are referred to by the development order
          7       as Feeding Stations 1, 2, and 3.
          8            These three feeding stations were moved
          9       short distances to less environmentally
         10       sensitive areas at the direction of FDER.  But
         11       they remain in the approximate location as they
         12       were prior to the adoption of the
         13       Comprehensive Plan.
         14            We ask that perhaps maybe a deferral so
         15       your staff could look at this record, look at
         16       what went before the Administrative Law Judge.
         17       Don't send this to another administrative
         18       hearing to litigate the same issues, please.
         19            DR. BRADLEY:  We -- we have two more people
         20       on the other side:  Richard Grosso, and
         21       Eva Armstrong.  They have 5 minutes left.  The
         22       attorney for the DCA had taken the first
         23       5 minutes.
         24            So, Richard Grosso, who's representing
         25       Curtis Kruer, will get two-and-a-half minutes.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            MR. GROSSO:  Thank you.
          2            Good morning, Governor Chiles, members of
          3       the Cabinet.  I'm Richard Grosso.  I represent
          4       Curtis Kruer.  He's a long-time biologist and
          5       fishing guide in the Florida Keys.
          6            He, like dozens of Agency personnel, have
          7       observed the impacts of these activities since
          8       they started in the mid 1970s.  The history is
          9       as compelling as anything I have ever seen in
         10       the Florida Keys, in the State of Florida, in
         11       terms of the violations and the gross
         12       environmental destruction.
         13            There are a number of illegal structures at
         14       these islands, including the ones at issue
         15       today.  While the finding of fact Mr. Routa just
         16       read to you does say these structures are in the
         17       approximate location that the consent orders in
         18       the '80s told them to be, approximate in the
         19       context of these islands is it's in a mangrove,
         20       now it's not in a mangrove.
         21            You know, approximate -- the difference of
         22       3, 4, 5, 10 feet is significant when you talk
         23       about the elevations and the habitat types on
         24       these islands.
         25            These structures are not placed in the
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       exact locations that the consent order suggested
          2       structures be put.
          3            Very importantly, those -- that consent
          4       order done by the Trustees, who only had
          5       jurisdiction in wetlands, specifically said,
          6       we're not telling you this complies with local
          7       code, you need to get any local permits.
          8            They didn't.  They just went and put the
          9       structures on the islands, never got the local
         10       permits that were required.
         11            That's one huge violation of the consent
         12       orders.  DEP has moved to enforce those consent
         13       orders in front of Judge Sandy Taylor on the
         14       basis of gross and material violations has
         15       sought removal of all monkeys.  We're asking
         16       them to call that up in front of the judge.
         17            But the point is, this company cannot come
         18       to you and claim that it has all these rights
         19       under these consent orders that it itself has
         20       breached continuously and repeatedly, almost
         21       since the day the ink was dry on those consent
         22       orders.
         23            It's an extremely important point.  They
         24       want to tell you today, you should allow us to
         25       violate the Monroe County code because these
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       consent orders gave us the right to do it.  Yet
          2       they have violated those consent orders; have
          3       been in violation of them for many, many years.
          4            There is no equity here that -- on the part
          5       of the State, in terms of how you've misled
          6       them, that would cause you to have to violate
          7       the Monroe County code to let this company stay
          8       in business.
          9            There are alternative -- it is time for
         10       these activities to cease in the Florida Keys
         11       and be relocated.  This company has other
         12       facilities on mainland where they can breed
         13       monkeys.
         14            The hurricane vulnerability of these areas,
         15       the environmental sensitivity of the
         16       Florida Keys, I -- you know of the environmental
         17       sensitivity of the Florida Keys.
         18            This is the worst possible location you
         19       could ever think of to breed rhesus monkeys.  We
         20       have the strictest rules in the state of Florida
         21       in Monroe County.
         22            The reason that these permits violate the
         23       code, and why you should follow staff's
         24       recommendation is, there are three types of uses
         25       that are allowed in offshore island zoning
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       designation.  This is not one of them.  Very
          2       clear.  There's no doubt about it.
          3            There's a setback requirement.  They don't
          4       meet the setback requirement.  Those are the two
          5       reasons why there's no doubt that the final
          6       order has to issue to deny these permits.
          7            The hurricane issue is huge.  We have been
          8       so lucky in the Keys.  We haven't had a major
          9       hurricane since this operation has begun in the
         10       early '70s.  Our luck is going to run out very
         11       soon in the Florida Keys.
         12            We suggest to you that this company be
         13       given one hurricane season, but not two more.
         14       The structures that Mr. Routa pointed out to
         15       you, they should be allowed to stay till the end
         16       of this year on Key Lois, and till May 30th of
         17       1998 on Raccoon Key.
         18            Within that period of time, they could be
         19       gathering up their monkeys, putting them in
         20       those cages, and then relocating them.
         21            You should let them stay that long, but
         22       only that long.  That's -- that's the equity in
         23       that matter.
         24            You should not allow the agencies to
         25       discuss -- the agencies have bent over backwards
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       with this company to try to find a settlement to
          2       try to let them stay in business.  The company
          3       has been unreasonable.
          4            Any settlement would allow more structures
          5       of the kind that violate the code of the kind
          6       that are before you today to be built.  The only
          7       way to settle and to let them stay in business
          8       is to allow several times over the kinds of
          9       violations that we think you are about to not
         10       agree to today.  It is time for these activities
         11       to cease as soon as possible.
         12            The information has not come from the
         13       agencies, it does not come from the public in
         14       this case.
         15            We are asking you as members of the public,
         16       who can no longer fish the areas surrounding
         17       those islands, to put an end to these
         18       activities, deny these permits, and restore
         19       these islands back to the people of the state of
         20       Florida.
         21            Be happy to answer any questions.
         22            My client, Mr. Kruer, a biologist, is also
         23       here to answer any scientific or factual
         24       questions that you might have.
         25            Thank you very much.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
          2            DR. BRADLEY:  Eva Armstrong had waived her
          3       time, Governor.
          4            That's -- unless you have any questions,
          5       that's all the further testimony.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
          7            DR. BRADLEY:  Back on --
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Motion.
         10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes.
         11            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I move the
         12       authorization of the Secretary to enter the
         13       final draft order.
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         16            Without objection, it's approved.
         17            DR. BRADLEY:  Okay.
         18            (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
         19       Commission Agenda was concluded.)
         20                             *
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Trustees.
          2            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 1, minutes.
          3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move minutes.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Madam Secretary, just
          5       before we take that up.  As I understand it, the
          6       Department of Environmental Protection is
          7       pursuing its motion to enforce action against
          8       Charles River Lab for violations of the previous
          9       consent order and lease agreement.
         10            In light of the action that was just taken
         11       by the Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
         12       Commission, I hope your Agency will put this
         13       item on the April 15th Board of Trustees agenda
         14       to advise the Board of any and all violations
         15       that you believe have occurred, and recommend
         16       appropriate action.
         17            I also ask you to invite the Game and Fresh
         18       Water Fish Commission to review its criteria for
         19       permitting for captive wildlife.
         20            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir, we will do that.
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am.
         22            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Item 1,
         23       minutes.
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?
         25            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second -- motion.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          3            Without objection, minutes are adopted.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 2, quarterly
          5       management report.
          6            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move acceptance.
          7            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          9            Without object, it's approved.
         10            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 3, two option
         11       agreements for Green Swamp CARL project.
         12            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         15            Without objection, they're approved.
         16            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 4, conveyance of two
         17       parcels of accreted sovereign land.
         18            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         21            Without objection, it's approved.
         22            MS. WETHERELL:  Substitute Item 5 -- and we
         23       have three speakers on this item -- the
         24       authorization to close on the Kissimmee Prairie
         25       CARL project.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            If I could call on Bill Malone from the
          2       District, the Water Management District has been
          3       in the lead in this item through an agreement
          4       with the Department.
          5            And if I can bring him forward first.
          6            While he's coming up, why don't I go ahead
          7       and call on Dr. Paul Gray from National Audubon
          8       if he's in the room.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
         10            MR. MALONE:  Governor, members of the
         11       Cabinet, I apologize.
         12            I'm Bill Malone.  I'm the Director of
         13       Construction of Land Management for the
         14       Water Management District in south Florida.
         15            In doing our due diligence on this piece of
         16       property, we became aware of the prior use of
         17       the property by the Department of the Defense.
         18            We have, as I believe you're aware, closed
         19       on several thousand acres that lies immediately
         20       west of this parcel, that is adjacent to the
         21       Kissimmee River, and will be a part of the
         22       Kissimmee River Restoration Project.
         23            It was immediately clear that we could not
         24       proceed with closing on this particular piece of
         25       land without working through the issues
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       associated with the prior use of the property.
          2            After a good deal of effort, we were able
          3       to get a draft report from the
          4       Corps of Engineers late last fall that discussed
          5       the prior use of the property; and we got a
          6       final report dated January 15th of 1997.
          7            There has also been correspondence between
          8       us and the Corps of Engineers on this issue.
          9            It is clear from all this documentation
         10       that -- that the Federal government acknowledges
         11       that this is a Federal problem that they are
         12       responsible for, and that the landowner is not
         13       responsible for the clearance of these
         14       properties that were used back in World War II.
         15            However, it is also clear that the property
         16       has little, if any, priority in the Federal
         17       system for any expectation that it would be
         18       cleared in the near term.
         19            We commissioned a consultant to look at the
         20       issues associated with the use of the property
         21       by the Department of Defense.  We did not ask
         22       the consultant to evaluate the accuracy of the
         23       Corps of Engineers' report.
         24            We asked the consultant simply to give us
         25       feedback as to what we needed to do in order to
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       deal with the potential for unexploded ordnance
          2       to remain on the property.  And -- and we have
          3       their recommendations which have been provided
          4       to your staff.
          5            On February 13th, we took this to our
          6       governing board in West Palm Beach.  And after
          7       extensive discussion of the pros and cons, and
          8       the -- and the risks, our Board concluded
          9       that -- that this was a risk that they were
         10       willing to share in with the State of Florida,
         11       subject to the following conditions:  A), the
         12       target areas and the flyways which comprise
         13       approximately 10 percent of the property,
         14       roughly 3800 acres in five different locations,
         15       should be closed to the public, should be
         16       affirmatively closed with fencing and the
         17       appropriate posting, until and unless they are
         18       clear -- cleared by the Federal government.
         19            We also believe that the public should be
         20       fully informed as to the prior use of the
         21       property, and that the -- and that the perimeter
         22       of the property itself, the entrance ways to the
         23       property, should be appropriately marked.
         24            We also intend to work hard to get the
         25       Federal priority raised on this -- cleanup of
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       this property.  And I'm advised that our general
          2       counsel and the Department's general counsel are
          3       working together on correspondence to the
          4       Federal government to request that they assume
          5       the immediate responsibility for the appropriate
          6       fencing and posting of the target areas and
          7       flyways.
          8            Our Board voted, as I indicated, to go
          9       ahead, contingent upon the partnership with the
         10       State, as I believe the Secretary has outlined
         11       to you and is in your agenda item.
         12            I do want to touch on the issue of access
         13       to the property briefly.
         14            We have found evidence of public
         15       rights-of-way to this property, both from the
         16       north from the Osceola County side, as well as
         17       from Okeechobee County.
         18            We have every reason to expect that the
         19       insurance title company will ensure legal access
         20       to this property, and, in fact, that insurance
         21       is a prerequisite to closing.
         22            However, there are private land owners in
         23       both -- in the Osceola side and the Okeechobee
         24       side, that have undertaken to construct gates
         25       across these rights-of-way.  We expect to work
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       with Okeechobee County and with the Division of
          2       State Lands to resolve that so that public
          3       access will come from Okeechobee County to the
          4       property.
          5            And I have no reason to believe that that
          6       would take a substantial length of time.  I have
          7       reasonable confidence that that could be done
          8       prior to the time that the target areas and
          9       flyways could be fenced and posted.
         10            I'll be happy to answer questions.
         11            I do have with me a professional from our
         12       staff who can answer detailed technical
         13       questions with regard to the ordnance issues on
         14       the property.
         15            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, I'd like
         16       to ask --
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, Commissioner.
         18            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- a question.
         19            Was the -- the price determined on this
         20       property prior to the disclosure of the -- of
         21       the bombs on the property?
         22            MR. MALONE:  Yes, sir, it was.  The
         23       purchase price is approximately 85 percent of
         24       the appraisal.  What we have done subsequently
         25       is ask the appraiser to reevaluate the appraisal
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       based on the new information.
          2            And I believe you've been provided a copy
          3       of a letter from the appraiser.  It is
          4       qualitative, as opposed to quantitative.  But he
          5       spoke to three specific issues:  One, it is his
          6       judgment that if the property would be cleared
          7       in a reasonable length of time, that there would
          8       not be a significant impact on value.
          9            The issue there, of course, is what's a
         10       reasonable length of time.
         11            He also looked at stigma impact, and
         12       concluded that if the property is cleared in a
         13       responsible way, that there should be little,
         14       if any, stigma.
         15            Interestingly, he also opined that there
         16       may be an enhancement to value.  This property
         17       is largely native range.  And in areas that have
         18       to be physically cleared, that would probably be
         19       replanted with domestic grasses, which would be
         20       improved pasture, and might have a higher value.
         21            He did not attempt to put a number on those
         22       downsides and upsides.  But our judgment in
         23       reading the correspondence was that he felt that
         24       the impact would not be substantial.
         25            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  If the -- if the --
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       if the Federal government is not going to pay
          2       for it, and we have to pay for it, how much is
          3       that going to cost?
          4            MR. MALONE:  The estimates vary, depending
          5       on how much of the property is cleared.  But if
          6       the -- if the clearance is limited to the areas
          7       that the park would be developed upon, if we do
          8       not undertake to clear the target areas and the
          9       flyways, which is our recommendation, then we're
         10       probably talking in terms of four million
         11       dollars or less to clear the construction areas.
         12            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Uh-hum.  If you --
         13       and if you cleared it all --
         14            MR. MALONE:  Those estimates range up to
         15       about fifteen million dollars, I believe.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You know, my
         17       understanding is, one, the Federal Government
         18       does assume responsibility.  This is their
         19       responsibility ultimately.  It's a question of
         20       when they want to do it.  But --
         21            MR. MALONE:  Yes, sir.  They have -- they
         22       have put in writing that they believe that this
         23       is --
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
         25            MR. MALONE:  -- their responsibility.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Number two, I know you've
          2       got an estimate of ten, eleven million dollars
          3       to clear that.  I'll have to tell you, for
          4       3200 acres, I just can't get my mind around how
          5       they charge that kind of money.
          6            I believe I would do it for a lot cheaper
          7       than that if you just give me a little mine
          8       detector, and pay my money, and I'll go find the
          9       damn bomb if it's out there.  You know, I just
         10       can't possibly get my mind around that, that
         11       they're talking about that kind of funds.
         12            But what you're saying is we'd have to --
         13       your plan is to fence off about 10 percent of
         14       this for now, and then try to speed up your
         15       negotiations with the -- with the Corps to get
         16       them to go on and assume their responsibility.
         17            MR. MALONE:  Yes, sir.
         18            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But -- but if
         19       you -- I guess what I'm just interested in, if
         20       it was eleven to fifteen million dollars to
         21       clean up the site, are you saying that you --
         22       are you saying that you didn't take -- and
         23       I guess the appraiser did not take that into
         24       consideration with the appraisal.
         25            If he didn't know about it, I guess he
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       couldn't have taken it.
          2            MR. MALONE:  He did not -- we did not know
          3       about it, nor did he, obviously.  We've asked
          4       him after the fact to evaluate based on that new
          5       information.
          6            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          8            MR. KUKLESKI:  Yes.  My name is
          9       Robert Kukleski.  I'm the environmental engineer
         10       with the South Florida Water Management
         11       District.
         12            I'm responsible for the Preacquisition
         13       Environmental Assessment Program, a portion of
         14       which was associated with the acquisition of
         15       this property.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Any questions?
         17            MS. WETHERELL:  Okay.
         18            I call Dr. Paul Gray.
         19            DR. GRAY:  Hello.
         20            Thank you.  My name is Paul Gray, and I
         21       manage the Audubon Society's Kissimmee Prairie
         22       Santuary, which is directly adjacent to the
         23       Latt Maxcy property in Okeechobee County.
         24            I came up here today, and I'm hand
         25       delivering a letter from the County
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Administrator, George Long, which I will give to
          2       you; and a Certified Copy of the Okeechobee
          3       Board of County Commissioners' resolution on
          4       this property.
          5            Many of you have probably seen this
          6       resolution already, it was passed about a year
          7       ago.  And the County said that -- the
          8       Commissioners said that they supported the idea
          9       of taking this property and turning it into a
         10       State park if, indeed, it was going to be the
         11       type of park that would attract a lot of
         12       tourists and generate revenue for the community.
         13            Obviously Okeechobee would like to have a
         14       diversified economic base.  So one of the things
         15       they wanted was revenue for the county, a very
         16       good tourist program.
         17            The second thing that they wanted in
         18       this -- and you can read it -- is they wanted
         19       the access roads to the property being from the
         20       south through Okeechobee County.  That way the
         21       tourists that did come would be in the county
         22       and spend their money there.
         23            And the third thing they wanted was to
         24       participate in the Payment in Lieu of Taxes
         25       Program for ten years after the park was bought
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          1       to help make up for revenues that might be lost
          2       having the land bought.
          3            And so I have this resolution for you.
          4       It's been certified by the clerk, and I'd like
          5       to give it into the official records.
          6            And I'll just briefly read George Long's
          7       cover letter.  George is the County
          8       Administrator.
          9            Says:  Honorable Governor Chiles and
         10       Cabinet members.  Enclosed herewith is a copy of
         11       resolution number 95-46, expressing the Board of
         12       County Commissioners' qualified support for the
         13       priority ranking and State acquisition of
         14       certain land, known as the Latt Maxcy property,
         15       for near term development as an ecotourism
         16       attraction, preferably as a State park.
         17            Such development has potential to
         18       significantly compliment the County's efforts to
         19       diversify its economic base, which continues to
         20       suffer.
         21            Furthermore, acquisition and appropriate
         22       development of this particular site, in
         23       combination with the Kissimmee River restoration
         24       project and the Okeechobee Scenic Trail, will
         25       collectively constitute a world class
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          1       environmental preservation achievement of world
          2       class proportion.
          3            I strongly urge you to support this
          4       acquisition, and the benefits to future
          5       generations that it will represent.
          6            Sincerely, George Long, County
          7       Administrator.
          8            And that's pretty much the County's
          9       position.  They would like to see this
         10       acquisition go through.  They would like to see
         11       a wonderful park made out of this.  And that
         12       way, not only we can make money off it, but we
         13       would have a wonderful thing.
         14            This park actually is -- is -- represents
         15       the heritage of our community.  It's the
         16       prairies that the original cow hunters went out
         17       on.
         18            So I'm not sure who I should give this
         19       to --
         20            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, I'd like to
         21       ask him a question.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am.
         23            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Sir, if -- if, in fact,
         24       the Federal government decided that they weren't
         25       going to pick up the tab for this eleven to
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       whatever million dollars, are you representing
          2       that the County would pick that up?
          3            DR. GRAY:  I don't think the County would
          4       have any interest in that at all.  They want to
          5       see the park be made into a park.  If there's
          6       ordnance issues, I don't think that they would
          7       want to -- I don't think it's -- they would feel
          8       that it would be their responsibility.
          9            Just -- if I could speak as a local -- and
         10       I'm taking off my County hat now.  I work for
         11       Audubon, and I've been in Okeechobee for about
         12       ten years.  And I've never heard of any problems
         13       with ordnance.
         14            And so I asked Rod Chandler, who was an
         15       Audubon warden for 30 years.  And Rod likes to
         16       tell everybody he's older than
         17       Okeechobee County.  He was born there, but he's
         18       not from there.
         19            And I asked him, and he's never heard of
         20       any accidents or incidents of either people or
         21       livestock or vehicles or anything having any
         22       trouble with unexploded bombs or any accidents.
         23            And, indeed, I haven't found anybody in the
         24       County that has any memory in history.  And
         25       there -- like the Coquina Development Area,
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       which is just south of us is the Coquina Water
          2       Control District, they built 220 miles of
          3       roadways around a target site in a 25-square
          4       mile area, and they never had any problems.
          5            Of course, a lot of those pastures have
          6       been improved and plowed, and there's been
          7       cattle and hogs and all that.
          8            And the locals down there just were kind of
          9       surprised that this became an issue, because it
         10       just hasn't seemed to be a problem for us.  And,
         11       you know, I can't say that there aren't any
         12       bombs out there, but we just haven't had any
         13       trouble.
         14            So -- just from a local perspective, that's
         15       my two cents worth on that.
         16            Actually, our sanctuary was also used as
         17       part of the bombing range.  And I've never
         18       experienced any problem.
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Well, but are you
         20       suggesting that if, in fact, the Federal
         21       government decided that they didn't want to pick
         22       up this eleven million dollar added charge, that
         23       the State should not deal with this problem --
         24       or perceived problem?
         25            DR. GRAY:  I -- I would -- I think that the
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          1       County's position on that would be that it would
          2       be a State park, and the State would be
          3       responsible, or the Federal government.
          4            They're not a wealthy enough county to foot
          5       that kind of a bill, even if they wanted to.
          6            So --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Further question?
          8            DR. GRAY:  Thank you very much.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
         10            MR. WILLSON:  Good morning.  Governor and
         11       Cabinet, my name is George Willson, representing
         12       the Nature Conservancy.
         13            I brought up to the podium the book that is
         14       the research product of looking at the formerly
         15       used defense site, both the west side of the
         16       river and the east side of the river.
         17            In the entire document, there is nothing
         18       for this side of the river, the east side, or
         19       formerly used defense area 5, that shows any
         20       live ordnance, other than the marker bombs.
         21            Both the fragments on the ground, the
         22       records from the -- from the Department of
         23       Defense, and everything the Corps could find
         24       going back to every Department of Defense file,
         25       all the exhaustive research that they did, shows
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          1       that only marker bomb ordnance was -- which was
          2       a bomb that was filled with sand or concrete.
          3       And it had a small charge that set off a smoke
          4       bomb, and there was a -- somebody in a tower
          5       nearby that judged how well the B-17 trainers --
          6       bombers were doing.
          7            That is the only thing that is listed from
          8       any of the fragments, any of the pieces found,
          9       or any of the ordnance dropped.  So we're not
         10       talking about real ordnance.
         11            And if I -- I wanted to also mention that
         12       the fact that the State operates a number of
         13       wildlife management areas on properties where
         14       real ordnance has been dropped or is dropping.
         15       They have wildlife management areas where people
         16       drive across the river, where people have
         17       dropped -- for 50 years, the Air Force has
         18       dropped real ordnance and other rounds on
         19       Avon Park Bombing Range.
         20            We have a Trustees property, Camp Landing,
         21       which has had real live ordnance; we have the
         22       Holy Land down in the Everglades, which had live
         23       ordnance, real bombs dropped, which is a
         24       wildlife management where people drive heavy
         25       equipment, half-tracks, airboats, and other
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          1       things over it.
          2            And a number of places are like that, where
          3       people driving off-road seem to get along with
          4       areas that have been used, or formerly used
          5       bombing areas.
          6            And if we have it -- if we have a preserve
          7       like this where the target areas are known, and
          8       the target areas in the preserve are really
          9       off-road areas, they're away from the main
         10       roads.  And if you were to set those aside by
         11       posting, fencing, or whatever, you're basically
         12       going to have a preserve within a preserve.
         13            And on the price issue, we bought the
         14       property at some three or four million dollars
         15       below appraised value.  If you were to multiply
         16       $573 an acre for the native range, or the
         17       prairie that we acquired, times the 3700, that's
         18       about 2.1 million.
         19            That still leaves us several
         20       million dollars below the -- the value.  So
         21       I think you could -- even if we got no use out
         22       of that land, other than nature having a
         23       set-aside area, a preserve within a preserve,
         24       I think we're still okay on value.
         25            And if you look at the area south of the
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          1       property, south of the Maxcy property, where
          2       there are a number -- there was many targets
          3       south of the property, those areas have been
          4       disked, burned, chopped, plowed, roads, ditches,
          5       you name it, houses have been built for
          6       50 years.
          7            And when the Department of Defense went out
          8       and looked at all the records of
          9       Okeechobee County, they found no evidence of
         10       anyone finding any ordnance or anything.
         11            The only evidence of anything being found
         12       was in the search in Highlands County records
         13       that outside the main gate of the base, on
         14       Arbuckle Creek, somebody dropped fuses in a
         15       creek --
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  George, would you say you
         17       got a hell of a lot stronger risk of being hit
         18       by a rattler there than you do by --
         19            MR. WILLSON:  Yes, sir.
         20            -- of the South Florida Board said you had
         21       a greater risk of being hit by lightning on a
         22       place without trees, or being bit by a
         23       rattlesnake.
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Getting snake bit.
         25            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1            MR. WILLSON:  Yes, sir.
          2            It is -- it don't want to overblow the risk
          3       or underestimate the risk, but it is not an
          4       issue that the people in Okeechobee feel is a
          5       risk, or there is no record of there being a
          6       risk from these marker bombs being dropped.
          7            There's 50 years of land use that -- on
          8       these areas to show that there hasn't been
          9       any -- any problem yet.
         10            And I want to just mention that on the
         11       record, and mention the fact that we do have --
         12       you're going to have an area where people are
         13       not going to be encouraged to drive off the
         14       roads.  You don't want to -- really want people
         15       driving on the prairie.  They may hike or take
         16       horseback trips, things like that.
         17            But I don't -- from knowing the property
         18       and driving over it, I would have no fear of
         19       driving over any of this property right now.
         20       And you -- when you -- it's been burned every --
         21       every year -- or every three -- on a three-year
         22       cycle, every year for 50 years by the cowboys
         23       that have managed the property.
         24            That goes all the way down to expose the
         25       dirt.  You have vegetation that's less than a
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          1       foot high.  Anything that's been found on the
          2       ground, the cowboys picked up the pieces of
          3       metal fragments and made little piles of them so
          4       that they would -- the choppers wouldn't hit
          5       them when they chopped some of the saw
          6       palmetto.  So they -- they have had no evidence
          7       of finding anything after 50 years.  So I
          8       hopefully won't find anything after we buy it.
          9            And the issue of spending eleven or
         10       twelve million dollars to clear it.  As I
         11       understand the clearing, it would be potentially
         12       plowing up the prairie.  We bought it to protect
         13       the prairie.  And if you were to clear a foot
         14       deep or 2 feet deep, it would basically undue
         15       the intent of why we were buying the property.
         16            So as the Governor has said, it may not be
         17       worth the money to spend to plow up an area, if
         18       that's how you clear it.
         19            Thank you very much.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, George.
         21            MS. WETHERELL:  Okay.  That concludes the
         22       speakers.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?
         24            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved.
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Seconded.
          3            Without objection, it's approved.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Thank you.
          5            Item 6, high density aquaculture lease area
          6       and 70 aquaculture leases.
          7            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         10            Without objection, it's approved.
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 7, an option agreement
         12       for Saddle Creek Greenway project.
         13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         14            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         16            Without objection, it's approved.
         17            MS. WETHERELL:  Substitute Item 8, we have
         18       some speakers for both of the -- the bank
         19       applications.
         20            The staff though is recommending exclusion
         21       of both the Lake Okeechobee and the Overstreets
         22       from the moratorium.
         23            But we have representing Lake Overstreet,
         24       Mr. Cauthen, who is the applicant; and for
         25       Overstreet, we have Bill Egan and Bill Malone.
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1            Did I say Overstreet on the first one?
          2       Sorry.
          3            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.  Okeechobee.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  Excuse me.
          5       Lake Okeechobee, Mr. Cauthen.
          6            And with your permission, I'll call --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  What -- the staff
          8       recommendation is to exclude --
          9            MS. WETHERELL:  To exclude, yes, sir, both
         10       of those from the moratorium.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Let's hear
         12       from them.
         13            MS. WETHERELL:  Mr. Cauthen is saying
         14       unless you have questions --
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pardon?
         16            MS. WETHERELL:  Mr. Cauthen will answer any
         17       questions if you have them.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
         19            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.
         20            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I move the staff
         21       recommendation.
         22            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Could we hear
         23       though from Bill Egan for Overstreet?
         24            MR. EGAN:  Thank you, Ms. Wetherell,
         25       Secretary.
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1            Governor and Trustees, I'm
          2       William L. Egan, I represent the Overstreet
          3       family.  I've been before you before in July
          4       when you conceptually approved the agreement
          5       between the Overstreets and the
          6       Water Management District whereby the District
          7       was going to acquire property with the
          8       reservation for a mitigation bank to the
          9       owners.  And that's what we've been working on.
         10            As I -- we got the word that this was a
         11       status report to the Cabinet on the progress
         12       there.  And I want to assure you that we have
         13       been working diligently to go forward with the
         14       mitigation bank on that property.
         15            The February -- or July 23 of last year is
         16       when you approved the agreement.  We closed it
         17       in August 30th to meet the timetable required by
         18       the District for the acquisition of land for the
         19       Kissimmee headwaters project.
         20            By September 5th, we were in serious
         21       negotiations with various bankers to work with
         22       us in going forward with the mitigation bank
         23       application.  You had placed some conditions on
         24       us in that July meeting, one of which was that
         25       you wanted us to come back for an approval of
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       the banker with which we were going to be
          2       working.  So we were looking for reputable
          3       individuals in that respect.
          4            We got a short list going.  By middle
          5       September, it became apparent that we had been
          6       working with the Water Management District in
          7       making this agreement that we made who -- and
          8       the District is in partners with the
          9       Corps of Engineers in doing the work.  But the
         10       Corps of Engineers was out of tune to some
         11       degree with our agreement.
         12            So immediately an effort began in mid
         13       September of 1996 to bring the State and Federal
         14       interests into one focus so we could go forward.
         15            The culmination of that was with a meeting
         16       with the Corps of Engineers in December of 1996
         17       to determine the necessary predicates.  We had
         18       to have certain materials from the
         19       Corps of Engineers concerning their work, to
         20       work with in designing our application.
         21            Those materials were promised to us in
         22       December of last year.  We're assured that we're
         23       going to get them this week.  And so there has
         24       been some time periods there that have not been
         25       the result of any lack of diligence on the part
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          1       of the owners in moving forward on this.
          2            And so this moratorium would take away our
          3       window of opportunity to do this.  And I think
          4       the State would lose a significant benefit if
          5       that happened.  So I do urge your approval of
          6       the staff recommendations today.
          7            I'll answer any questions that I can that
          8       you might have.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question?
         10            Thank you, sir.
         11            MR. EGAN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
         12            MS. WETHERELL:  Thank you.
         13            Okay.  That's all the speakers.
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor --
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
         16            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- Ginger,
         17       what's the status of the Overstreet property?
         18            You were going to let us know, at the
         19       request -- at the request of Commissioner Brogan
         20       as to where both of these particular properties
         21       were in the process insofar as whether or not
         22       application for a permit or a lease has been
         23       filed with you, where it's at.
         24            And could you give us that on both -- on
         25       both properties?
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          1            MS. WETHERELL:  If you don't mind, I'm
          2       going to let Bill Malone from the District,
          3       since he's dealing with the issue.
          4            MR. MALONE:  Again, I'm Bill Malone with
          5       the Water Management District.
          6            The Overstreet permit applications have not
          7       been filed.  The -- the gentleman representing
          8       the Overstreets have been in discussions with
          9       the Corps of Engineers.  They will need a permit
         10       from the Corps, and from the Department.
         11            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Have they
         12       filed a permit -- an application for permit with
         13       the Corps?
         14            MR. MALONE:  No, sir, they have not, to the
         15       best of my knowledge.
         16            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  How many
         17       credits will they be getting, will the
         18       Overstreets be getting?
         19            MR. MALONE:  That has not been determined.
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I understand
         21       there's some state sovereignty lands in this
         22       issue, approximately 328 out of 600.  Would they
         23       be receiving any type of credits for land the
         24       State already owns?
         25            MR. MALONE:  General, I can't answer that
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          1       question.  Somebody from the Department --
          2            MS. WETHERELL:  Kirby, can answer that --
          3            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
          4       you know, really I don't see how staff could
          5       recommend for us to exempt out this particular
          6       property if it can't answer a question.
          7            MS. WETHERELL:  Well, Governor, the staff
          8       is telling me that the reason for their

          9       recommendation -- it's really two-fold:  That
         10       the Water -- the Water Management District will
         11       have to pay 2.1 -- 2.2 million dollars for the
         12       acquisition of this land should it not proceed
         13       as a mitigation bank.
         14            And, furthermore, part of this particular
         15       situation would involve putting an easement over
         16       400 acres.
         17            So the Water Management District and the
         18       Department both see value, public benefit, for
         19       this being a bank.
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Let me ask
         21       you a question, if I can.
         22            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.
         23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That is,
         24       what is the value of a credit today?
         25            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.

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          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  In
          2       mitigation bank, what is the value of a credit?
          3       Can you tell me that?
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  Well, I can tell you an
          5       average.  But I can't --
          6            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  What is the
          7       average?
          8            MS. WETHERELL:  Well, normally about -- it
          9       costs about 35,000.
         10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         12            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So you're
         13       going to give you don't know how many acres or
         14       how many credits, an average of $35,000.  You
         15       have no idea until your report comes back as to
         16       what the geography's going to be for these
         17       particular credits.  It could be downtown
         18       Orlando.
         19            MS. WETHERELL:  Well --
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- which
         21       might bring a value of much more than 35,000 --
         22       but even 35,000, and we have no idea how many
         23       acres you were talking about, that might be in
         24       the billions of dollars, not in the millions.
         25            And I -- and until you can answer these
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          1       questions, I mean, I have --
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, just to --
          3            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- I have
          4       doubt.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- just to kind of get
          6       back to where we are though, are we not,
          7       General, talking about whether this land will be
          8       in the moratorium or not.
          9            MS. WETHERELL:  Exactly.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't think -- I don't
         11       think I'm here today to say we're ready to
         12       approve the application, the credits.
         13            MS. WETHERELL:  That's right.
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All of that will be what
         15       will be coming before us.
         16            But we, as the Governor and the Cabinet,
         17       did give conceptual approval of this.  Now, the
         18       question is now, I think the very thing you're
         19       asking is what the Department finally got
         20       worried about, and some of us have been worried
         21       about:  Are we going too fast on this thing --
         22            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's
         23       right.
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- should we take a look
         25       at it.  And we said, yes, we are.  Now the
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          1       question is:  Should you exempt one or two --
          2       these two parcels, because we had given some
          3       kind of conceptual approval but -- just from the
          4       moratorium.  I don't think we're excepting them
          5       from anything else.  I'm not.
          6            MS. WETHERELL:  No.  No.  And all those
          7       questions will be addressed when they make their
          8       application.
          9            And if it's -- if they're not appropriate,
         10       then we would not be coming back to recommend.
         11       At this point, we just have a conceptual
         12       approval.
         13            And, you know, the fact that you've got the
         14       Kissimmee Restoration Project underway, and this
         15       is a piece of that effort.  So, you know,
         16       it's -- they're all intertwined.
         17            But your questions are legitimate
         18       questions, General, and they will be brought
         19       back before you.  It's just until they have a
         20       application, we can't address them.
         21            We're simply recommending today that they
         22       not be included in the moratorium so that these
         23       particular two can proceed through the
         24       application process.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I guess
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       I'm -- my real question is, Governor -- I don't
          2       care if they proceed or not.
          3            But the thing is:  Are we going to be
          4       voting on these before we receive our report on
          5       mitigation banking?  I mean, I think it'd be
          6       pretty silly to do final approval on this --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  No, I don't -- I agree
          8       with you.
          9            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Oh, okay.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I am not -- my vote is
         11       not to make any kind of final approval at all.
         12       It is simply to determine whether we're going to
         13       allow these two to not be under a moratorium,
         14       which is going to be at least a year, I believe.
         15            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, with that in
         16       mind, I think most of you have this -- this
         17       language in front of you.
         18            But I'd move that we not impose the
         19       mitigation banking moratorium on either the
         20       Lake Okeechobee or Overstreet proposed
         21       mitigation banking project.
         22            However, because of the time sensitive
         23       nature of the Lake Okeechobee project, I'd
         24       suggest that we require the applicant to have a
         25       complete application in with the Army
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Corps of Engineers by the May 13th Cabinet
          2       meeting.
          3            And in this two-month period, I'd further
          4       move that the staff of DEP, and other interested
          5       parties, be directed to assist the applicant in
          6       the search for an acceptable alternative site.
          7            Regardless of the outcome, I would like for
          8       this application to come back to the Trustees
          9       for some sort of final action at that May 13th
         10       Cabinet meeting.
         11            And finally, we'd like to impose a
         12       six-month deadline on the Overstreet --
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Just a question on that.
         14            Not necessarily that we would find -- that
         15       we would approve it at the May 13th, is it?
         16            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  No.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You just want it to come
         18       back so that we can review it --
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  We can possibly approve
         20       it, we can possibly send it back to the drawing
         21       boards to come up with a -- an answer that
         22       works.
         23            And then on the six-month deadline on the
         24       Overstreet project, that the parties would be
         25       required to have a complete application in to
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       DEP by the September 9th Cabinet meeting.
          2            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I would withdraw my
          3       motion, and second that motion.
          4            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have a
          5       question, Governor.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Uh-hum.
          7            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I guess what
          8       I'm getting at is that I -- I don't see any
          9       reason why I can vote for either one of those
         10       two projects for mitigation banking until we
         11       receive the mitigation report after the study.
         12            I mean, I -- it just doesn't make any sense
         13       to me.  I don't mind even going forward.  But
         14       until that report comes back and we have a
         15       chance to look at the report, if mitigation
         16       banking is a bad thing, we might just have made
         17       a very, very serious mistake.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I would agree with
         19       you.  I would not -- that's why I was asking the
         20       question about the May 13th, whatever it is.
         21            I don't want to vote on any final
         22       mitigation thing until we see exactly what the
         23       credits were, what we're getting, what we're
         24       giving, all of those questions I think need to
         25       be answered.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Also have a
          2       report of why we have the moratorium in the
          3       first place.  To study the issue, I would
          4       assume.
          5            So until that study is over, I don't see
          6       how we can vote for any mitigation credits.  I
          7       mean, I really don't see how we can.
          8            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Well, Governor, I would
          9       think that -- we are at March 11th.  May 13th is
         10       two months away.  It would seem to me that we
         11       could have the report prior to the May 13th
         12       meeting.
         13            But it certainly seems to me that the
         14       Lake Okeechobee project is time sensitive enough
         15       that we should be able to make a decision in a
         16       two-month period of time.
         17            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, my
         18       question last week also is how long will it take
         19       for them to do this report.  And I think by not
         20       approving anything until the report comes to us,
         21       I think the report's going to take less time
         22       than it would.
         23            It's like a term paper.  A term paper takes
         24       24 hours.  You can do it -- you always do it one
         25       day before it's due.  I mean --
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  But that's my point.
          2       If, in fact, we have a time deadline of
          3       May 13th, I believe that we will see a report
          4       prior to May 13th.
          5            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          7            TREASURER NELSON:  -- I want to --
          8            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor, are we
          9       putting a deadline on the report then, is that
         10       what we're really doing here?
         11            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  It's up to the
         12       staff I guess, when they can -- when they can
         13       bring one back that's complete and thorough --
         14            MS. WETHERELL:  I think it would be the
         15       world's record to have a rule in place in two
         16       months.  I just don't think --
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't think there's any
         18       way in the world you're going to make a final
         19       approval in two months, you know.
         20            I think we're talking about maybe an
         21       interim of some kind of maybe determining
         22       whether the Okeechobee thing can go forward,
         23       whether it should be -- you know, I think one of
         24       the things we're trying to do, I understand, is
         25       we're trying to push the Okeechobee project
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       people to get their papers in before the Corps
          2       so the Corps can make a determination.
          3            MS. WETHERELL:  Yeah.  I think we haven't
          4       probably done a real good job of trying to
          5       distinguish why these two are back before you.
          6            We made a recommendation for the
          7       moratorium.  That came from the Department
          8       because we really think that -- that you need to
          9       be involved, and we need to seriously look at
         10       this whole mitigation banking issue.  We -- we
         11       generated that concept because we think it needs
         12       to be reviewed.
         13            But these are two banks that -- potential
         14       banks that you have conceptually approved.
         15       Remember that the Lake Okeechobee bank has been
         16       approved.  It has a permit that the
         17       Water Management District has issued.
         18            Now, it will be back before you for the
         19       lease.  But they have their bank permit, the
         20       Water Management District has issued that.
         21            It is time sensitive in that you have the
         22       removal of melaleuca that has been underway for
         23       a long period of time, and really almost
         24       complete by the Water Management District.  The
         25       part that is remaining is what the banker wishes
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       to use for his bank.
          2            It is time sensitive in that the -- the
          3       water level is very low in Lake Okeechobee right
          4       now, and we don't want seed dispersal to take
          5       place and undo all the work and money that has
          6       been spent there.
          7            So we need to get resolution on that
          8       issue.  And so we -- we are looking for,
          9       you know, a decision by the Corps within a short
         10       period of time, a month, two months.
         11            Meanwhile, we had told the applicant that
         12       we would very much like to work with him to find
         13       an alternative site.  And he has agreed to work
         14       with us and the District to find an alternative
         15       site.  In fact, there's a meeting scheduled with
         16       him today at 1:00 o'clock to look for an
         17       alternative site.
         18            And if we can do that, it's the best of
         19       both worlds, because we would like to get on
         20       with the completion of the removal of melaleuca
         21       from the lake now.
         22            So if we can find that -- meanwhile, he's
         23       just waiting for his final permit from the
         24       Corps of Engineers.
         25            So if we can accomplish that, you know,
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       I think it will be progress.
          2            The second issue, Overstreet.  Overstreet
          3       is tied to the whole restoration of the
          4       Kissimmee.  And that work needs to be done by a
          5       time certain for the Water Management District
          6       purposes.
          7            And, therefore, that's why we have picked
          8       it out of all of the potential banks and said,
          9       let's don't include that in the moratorium
         10       because of the bigger picture, the greater good
         11       that can be gained here.
         12            So that's why we have pulled these two out
         13       and recommended it, that they not be included in
         14       the moratorium.
         15            Does that help?
         16            TREASURER NELSON:  May I ask one additional
         17       question?
         18            To what extent have we used public lands
         19       for mitigation banking in the past?
         20            MS. WETHERELL:  Staff can tell you exactly
         21       how much we have done.
         22            TREASURER NELSON:  Public lands.
         23            MS. WETHERELL:  Probably Debbie or Kirby.
         24            MR. GREEN:  The two major tracts that we've
         25       approved at this point are mitigation at
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                                  March 11, 1997
          1       Tosohatchee.  It's been on a project-by-project
          2       basis with the -- with DOT, for project impacts
          3       that they would have.  They've come into the
          4       park and restored some areas we have there.
          5            The second one is Little Pine Island where
          6       we've actually approved the mitigation bank that
          7       is ongoing now.
          8            So those are the two major sites that we
          9       have that we've used --
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Both of those are by
         11       public agencies though; are they not?
         12            MR. GREEN:  No, sir.  The --
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pine Island --
         14            MR. GREEN:  Pine Island is a private --
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It is a private.
         16            MR. GREEN:  Yes, sir.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That's the only private
         18       one you've approved.
         19            MR. GREEN:  Yes, sir.
         20            TREASURER NELSON:  And when was that
         21       approved?
         22            MR. GREEN:  About a year-and-a-half ago.
         23            TREASURER NELSON:  The reason I ask the
         24       question, it seems to me that there's a public
         25       policy that we need to decide here, whether or
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       not if in light of the Pine Island having been
          2       won, is this a -- in the interest of the public
          3       that we allow mitigation banking on public
          4       lands.
          5            And as part of the discussion of this issue
          6       before us, I would like to have that opportunity
          7       to have that issue thoroughly discussed.
          8            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I think that's exactly
         10       why they're asking for the one-year moratorium.
         11            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So that we can thoroughly
         13       discuss that issue.  And I think what it --
         14       you know, if you look back, I think we were
         15       getting the cart before the horse a little bit.
         16       We gave conceptual approval to two of these.  We
         17       were starting on some others, a bunch of
         18       applications being fined.
         19            Now, the Department said, time out, we
         20       think that we ought to look at this.  And
         21       I think everything you say, and we're all
         22       saying, we all now realize that we ought to look
         23       at it.
         24            The question is now:  What do you do with
         25       these two that you've given this conceptual
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       approval of; one, Overstreet, which seems to
          2       have sort of a double game in that it's part of
          3       the Kissimmee restoration.
          4            And the other is one that we had a pretty
          5       lengthy discussion on on melaleuca.  And at the
          6       time, I was wanting to get somebody else out
          7       there working on melaleuca, you know.  I pushed,
          8       you know, us giving conceptual approval of that
          9       at the time.
         10            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Now, I think what we're
         12       saying is:  Should we further look at these two
         13       so we don't just put them under the moratorium.
         14       We're not approving -- I'm not ready to approve
         15       either one of them.  I didn't think we are.  We
         16       don't know what their credits are, or anything
         17       else.
         18            But should we just exempt them, and then
         19       have the moratorium on everything else.
         20            Okay.  We've pretty thoroughly discussed
         21       this.  We ought to be able to --
         22            And we have a --
         23            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion and --
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- a motion and a second.
         25            Is there further discussion?
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            So many as favor the motion, signify by
          2       saying aye.
          3            THE CABINET:  Aye.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed, no.
          5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  The ayes have it.
          7            Motion's adopted.
          8            MS. WETHERELL:  Thank you.
          9            Substitute -- excuse me.
         10            Substitute Item 9.  On this particular
         11       item, Governor, we will have to have a motion to
         12       reconsider it.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  A motion to reconsider.
         14            MS. WETHERELL:  -- is necessary.
         15            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  So move.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  I think that
         17       motion to reconsider would have to be by
         18       somebody on the -- the other side.
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  What is this issue?
         20            TREASURER NELSON:  May I be recognized?
         21            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  This is the one you
         22       missed.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pardon?
         24            TREASURER NELSON:  May I be recognized?
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  The two
          2       negative votes were the Commissioner and myself,
          3       Governor.
          4            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, I move to
          5       reconsider the matter by which Item 9 received
          6       favorable consideration at the last Cabinet
          7       meeting.
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I'll second
          9       that.
         10            TREASURER NELSON:  I was on the prevailing
         11       side.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  It's been
         13       moved and seconded.
         14            So many as favor a reconsideration, say
         15       aye.
         16            THE CABINET:  Aye.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's re--
         18            No.
         19            It's reconsidered.
         20            Now it's before us.
         21            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Thank you,
         22       Governor.
         23            This is the issue for a modification of
         24       expansion and extension of a submerged land
         25       lease.  This is Whitney's Sailcenter.  And so it
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       is back before you today.
          2            Mrs. Whitney is here for any questions that
          3       you may have.
          4            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
          5       the reason why I voted no last week was not this
          6       particular project, it was just a policy that it
          7       appears over the past few years, staff and a
          8       delegation of over-- of their authority.
          9            They have -- it seems the 25-year lease has
         10       gotten to be the lease of choice.  It appears
         11       that prior to 1988, we had 38 leases of 25 years
         12       or more; and since 1988, we have 126, with most
         13       of our leases being literally in the hundred --
         14       133 of them right now presently with a 25-year
         15       lease, and three of them with 23-year leases.
         16            I think before we tie up the -- the State's
         17       land for that amount of time, I really believe
         18       it should be coming before the Board, and not
         19       just be -- be really done by staff.  I'm very
         20       concerned about it.
         21            This case may very well be a fact pattern
         22       where we would give a 25, or maybe a 15 or a 10,
         23       whatever.  But I do believe giving 25 years,
         24       tying land up for one entire generation in the
         25       fast growing parts of this state, is just a
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1       mistake, without having a hearing on it.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there further
          3       discussion?
          4            Is there a motion?
          5            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I move that we
          6       consider the approval.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been --
          8            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- moved and seconded.
         10            So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
         11            THE CABINET:  Aye.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed, no.
         13            The ayes have it, and it's approved.
         14            MS. WETHERELL:  Thank you.
         15            Okay.  Item 10, we're recommending deferral
         16       until April 15th.
         17            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move deferral.
         18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         20            Without objection, it is deferred.
         21            MS. WETHERELL:  Thank you.
         22            (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
         23       Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
         24            (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
         25       12:19 p.m.)
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  March 11, 1997
          1                 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
          4   STATE OF FLORIDA:
          5   COUNTY OF LEON:
          6            I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
          7   the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
          8   time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
          9   notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
         10   pages numbered 1 through 102 are a true and correct
         11   record of the aforesaid proceedings.
         12            I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
         13   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
         14   nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
         15   or financially interested in the foregoing action.
         16            DATED THIS 21ST day of MARCH, 1997.
         19                           LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
                                      100 Salem Court
         20                           Tallahassee, Florida 32301
                                      (904) 878-2221
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.