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          2                  T H E   C A B I N E T
          3             S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
          6               DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                           DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY
          7                     AND MOTOR VEHICLES
                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
          8                  STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
          9                  TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
                              IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
         11            The above agencies came to be heard before
              THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
         12   presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
              The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Thursday,
         13   September 26, 1996, commencing at approximately
              9:53 a.m.
         16                       Reported by:
         17                    LAURIE L. GILBERT
                        Registered Professional Reporter
         18                 Certified Court Reporter
                            Notary Public in and for
         19              the State of Florida at Large
         23             ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                100 SALEM COURT
         24                TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
         25                      1-800/934-9090

          1   APPEARANCES:
          2            Representing the Florida Cabinet:
          3            LAWTON CHILES
                       BOB CRAWFORD
          5            Commissioner of Agriculture
          6            BOB MILLIGAN
                       SANDRA B. MORTHAM
          8            Secretary of State
          9            BOB BUTTERWORTH
                       Attorney General
                       BILL NELSON
         11            Treasurer
         12            FRANK T. BROGAN
                       Commissioner of Education

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1                        I N D E X
          2   ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
              (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
          4       Director)
          5    1                  Approved                  5
               2                  Withdrawn                 5
          6    3                  Approved                  6
               4                  Approved                  7
          8   (Presented by Carlos L. Rainwater,
                  Executive Director)
               1                  Approved                  9
         10    2                  Approved                  9
               3                  Approved                 10
         12   (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
                  Executive Director)
               1                  Approved                 11
         14    2                  Approved                 12
               3                  Approved                 12
         15    4                  Approved                 16
               5                  Approved                 17
         16    6                  Approved                 18
               7                  Approved                 19
         17    8                  Approved                 20
              (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
         19       Executive Director)
         20    1                  Approved                 27
               2 through 5        Approved                 27
         21    6                  Approved                 28

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1                         I N D E X
              ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
          4   (Presented by Wayne Pierson)
          5    1                  Approved                 56
               2                  Approved                 56
          6    3                  Approved                 56
              (Presented by Gale Sitting,
          8       Deputy Director)
          9    1                  Approved                 57
               2                  Deferred                 57
         10    3                  Approved                 57
               4                  Approved                 58
              BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
              TRUST FUND:
         13   (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
               1                  Approved                 59
         15   Substitute 2        Deferred                101
               3                  Approved                102
         17            CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            104
         18                           *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                September 26, 1996
          1                  P R O C E E D I N G S
          2            (The agenda items commenced at 10:45 a.m.)
          3            (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  And now we'll go to the
          5       Division of Bond Finance.
          6            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 1 is approval of
          7       the minutes of the meeting of September 10th.
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?
          9            Moved and --
         10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
         12            Without objection, it's approved.
         13            MR. WATKINS:  Item 2 we request be
         14       withdrawn.
         15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
         17            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  A motion to support
         18       the --
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
         20            Without objection, it's withdrawn.
         21            MR. WATKINS:  Item 3 is a report of award
         22       of two multifamily housing revenue bonds sold on
         23       behalf of the Florida Housing Finance Agency.
         24            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So move.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          2            Without objection, that's approved.
          3            Anything special about these bonds, or
          4       anything?
          5            MR. WATKINS:  The next one.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Next one.
          7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  The next one.  Yes.
          8            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 4 is a report of
          9       award of the single family housing bond issue
         10       sold on a competitive basis.
         11            At the -- as you know, at the urging of the
         12       Governor and this Board, the Housing Agency
         13       undertook to evaluate --
         14            (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
         15            MR. WATKINS:  -- the feasibility of
         16       executing a transaction on a competitive basis.
         17       And this report of award is the result of that
         18       undertaking.
         19            The Housing Finance Agency, in a
         20       cooperative effort with the Division of
         21       Bond Finance, structured a transaction that
         22       would be well received by the marketplace in
         23       order to ensure a successful sale.  We received
         24       six bids on the transaction, the -- awarded the
         25       sale to the low bidder at a true interest cost

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                September 26, 1996
          1       of approximately --
          2            (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
          3            MR. WATKINS:  -- six point oh seven
          4       percent.
          5            From a bond sale standpoint, this was a
          6       very successful transaction in obtaining the
          7       lowest borrowing costs from the state.
          8            And in addition to that, achieved the
          9       Housing Agency's programatic objectives of
         10       minimizing their contribution in creating a very
         11       competitive mortgage loan rate for potential
         12       borrowers throughout the state.
         13            (Applause.)
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
         15            I never thought I would live to see it.
         16       But that's terrific.
         17            Is there a motion?
         18            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Motion, and --
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move it.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
         21            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I hope we have
         22       many more of those.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Seconded.
         24            Without objection.
         25            Thank you very much for your diligence in

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                September 26, 1996
          1       that, and I thank all the members of the
          2       Cabinet, and especially the Comptroller, who
          3       kept pushing on this as well.
          4            MR. WATKINS:  Thank you.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
          6            Interesting, again, one of the lowest rates
          7       that we've received in a good while.  So it
          8       seem --
          9            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Can be done.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- can be done.
         11            (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
         12       concluded.)
         13                             *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                         DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Department of
          2       Veterans' Affairs.
          3            MR. RAINWATER:  Good morning, Governor and
          4       members of the Cabinet.  We have three issues on
          5       our agenda this morning.
          6            The first is Attachment 1 in your package,
          7       the Florida Department of Veterans' Affairs
          8       quarterly reports for the third and fourth
          9       quarters of 1996.  You'll see that in
         10       Attachment 1.
         11            I recommend approval.
         12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval,
         13       Governor.
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         16            Without objection, it's approved.
         17            MR. RAINWATER:  The second item on our
         18       agenda this morning is our Legislative Budget
         19       Request for fiscal year 1997-1998.  That will be
         20       seen in Attachment 2 to the package.
         21            I recommend approval.
         22            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Motion.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         24            Without objection, it's approved.
         25            MR. RAINWATER:  And the final item on our

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                         DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
                                September 26, 1996
          1       agenda is our Capital Improvements Program for
          2       fiscal years 1997 through the year 2002, seen in
          3       Attachment 3 to the package.
          4            I recommend approval.
          5            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          8            Without objection, that's approved.
          9            MR. RAINWATER:  Thank you very much.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
         11            (The Department of Veterans' Affairs Agenda
         12       was concluded.)
         13                             *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Department of
          2       Highway Safety.
          3            MR. DICKINSON:  Good morning, Governor and
          4       Cabinet.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good morning.
          6            MR. DICKINSON:  First item is approval of
          7       minutes from July 9th Cabinet meeting.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
          9            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         11            Without objection, minutes are approved.
         12            MR. DICKINSON:  Item number 2 is request
         13       approval of the quarterly report for the period
         14       ending June of 1996.
         15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
         16            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         18            Without objection, that's approved.
         19            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 3 is a submission of
         20       accomplishments relating to the 95-96
         21       performance contract of the Executive Director
         22       of the Department.
         23            Recommend approval.
         24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'm just reading.
         25            MR. DICKINSON:  Hopefully.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't know whether
          2       there's a motion on that or not, to tell you the
          3       truth.  I've been --
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I suppose,
          5       grudgingly, Governor, I'll move approval.
          6            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I'll -- and
          7       I'll second it, because I think it reflects some
          8       pretty good effort on the part of the Secretary
          9       and his people.
         10            MR. DICKINSON:  Thank you, sir.
         11            (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Without objection, it's
         13       approved.
         14            Anything remarkable in this you want to
         15       talk about?  I mean, it --
         16            MR. DICKINSON:  Well, I think we're doing
         17       more with a lot less is the bottom line.  Our
         18       quarterly reports have reflected, we're taking
         19       more of the bad drivers off the road, and our
         20       patrol is really working hard to eliminate the
         21       problem we had with response time to crashes and
         22       scenes of accidents.
         23            We're on the Web, we've got a good home
         24       page on the Web.
         25            We were fortunate enough this past July,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       they had five awards in our -- AAMVA is our --
          2       American Association of Motor Vehicles
          3       Administrators.  They have five customer service
          4       awards in the southeast region, and Florida
          5       walked away with all five of them.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Terrific.
          7            MR. DICKINSON:  So --
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very good.
          9            MR. DICKINSON:  -- I think the customer
         10       service effort is paying off, and we're working
         11       hard in the driver license area.  We're now
         12       digitized in all of our field offices.
         13            The lines are very subdued right now.
         14       In fact, Sandy Lambert, our Division Director,
         15       was in Broward County this past week.  She said,
         16       if you go in, you're going to be handled.
         17       There's probably a 15-minute wait, at the most.
         18       So I think we've turned this thing around.
         19            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
         20       Fifteen minutes?
         21            MR. DICKINSON:  That's what she reported
         22       this week.  And she was there --
         23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Amazing.
         24            MR. DICKINSON:  -- for the whole week.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       unbelievable.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  For the --
          3            MR. DICKINSON:  And that's Broward, which
          4       you know we've --
          5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Usually it's
          6       a 4-hour battle.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
          8            MR. DICKINSON:  We've got, as you're well
          9       aware, two tax collectors now that are issuing
         10       driver's licenses, Marion County and Manatee.
         11       So we're going to expand that program.
         12            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's
         13       great.
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Are people using the
         15       telephone at all?
         16            MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.  We're -- about a
         17       million a year.  We're --
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That's pretty good.
         19            MR. DICKINSON:  -- the mail-in and the
         20       telephone renewal.
         21            We've just gone to a program this week
         22       where if you haven't paid your traffic citation,
         23       instead of going down to the court, then having
         24       to come to the driver license office to
         25       reinstate your privilege, you can go ahead and

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       pay with a credit card.  And do it all through
          2       the -- what -- what's finally hit --
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  This information is on
          4       your Web page --
          5            MR. DICKINSON:  Yes, sir.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Great.
          7            MR. DICKINSON:  In fact, we are now --
          8       Massachusetts is the first state that has gone
          9       to a renewal process through their Web page.
         10       And we hopefully will be on-line soon with that.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That would be great.
         12            MR. DICKINSON:  We're trying to work out
         13       some kinks right now on the payment side, but --
         14       for your tag and your -- and your
         15       driver license.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, you've got some
         17       great progress here, and we do commend you for
         18       that.
         19            MR. DICKINSON:  Thank you.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's great.
         21            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Outstanding.
         22            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 4 is submission of the
         23       96-97 performance contract.  Hopefully we can
         24       expand on these -- what progress we're making
         25       right now.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval, with
          2       better things to come.
          3            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          5            Without objection, it's approved.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Item 5 is a submission of
          7       the Department's legislative budget request for
          8       97-98.
          9            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         10            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, I have a
         11       question on the budget.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question.
         13            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I notice that it's a
         14       $19 million increase in the budget.  Can you
         15       tell me whether or not you have proposed
         16       decreases in any of the budget?
         17            MR. DICKINSON:  As you're well aware, these
         18       last couple of years, that's primarily what
         19       we've been about is cutting the budget.  I'm not
         20       sure that we have submitted anything at this
         21       point.
         22            I'm trying to think if we have a request
         23       before us from either the OPB, or the Senate, or
         24       the House, for a decrease.  But we're poised and
         25       ready if that is necessary.  We've cut about --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  But you didn't initiate
          2       any decrease in the budget.
          3            MR. DICKINSON:  We don't have anything --
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  In any areas.
          5            MR. DICKINSON:  In our budget request, we
          6       did not initiate any --
          7            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Okay.
          8            MR. DICKINSON:  -- decrease.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  In other words, he knows
         10       he's going to get the request from up here, so
         11       he saves anything for awhile.
         12            Is there a motion?
         13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
         15            TREASURER NELSON:  Second.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
         17            Without objection, it's approved.
         18            (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
         19            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 6 is request approval
         20       with the -- this is a -- the Allen Corporation,
         21       which is our Employee Assistance Program.  And
         22       we're seeking a -- to contract with a different
         23       vendor on this issue.  This is a --
         24            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         25            MR. DICKINSON:  -- five-year contract.  We

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       handle about 200 of our employees through EAP.
          2            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          4            Without objection, that's approved.
          5            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 7 is request approval
          6       or authority for us to enter into a contract
          7       with the Florida Association of Court Clerks
          8       Association to put an automated traffic citation
          9       system together.
         10            And it would go through the courts, and
         11       then eventually to Tallahassee, with the
         12       law enforcement at the initial level.
         13            This should be a real big time saver for
         14       our law enforcement personnel.  It's been
         15       through the legislative process, it's been
         16       through ITRPAC.
         17            The money is in -- in our -- one of our
         18       trust funds.  But the Legislature and every --
         19       all the other parties have gotten together, and
         20       we're going to let the Clerks of the Court
         21       design the system.  And then there'll be money
         22       in there for the individual law enforcement
         23       agencies to purchase these automation -- these
         24       automated traffic citators.
         25            It's a computerized handheld computer to

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       handle citations, crash reports.  Another good
          2       automation issue.
          3            (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I think you've done a
          5       good job in working with a number of the county
          6       officers, the clerks, the comptroller -- I mean,
          7       the tax collectors.  And I think this sounds
          8       like good progress, too.
          9            Is there a motion?
         10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
         11            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         13            Without objection, it's approved.
         14            MR. DICKINSON:  Now for the fun issue.
         15       Submission of the new state license plates.  We
         16       have five plates today:
         17            The Tampa Bay Devil Rays, the Boy Scout
         18       plate, the Bethune-Cookman College plate, and
         19       the Florida Athletic League -- excuse me --
         20       yeah, Florida Athletic League plate.
         21            And this is the proposed Florida plate --
         22       sorry?  Police Athletic League.
         23            And there's something here that we'll
         24       discuss in a moment.
         25            This is a surprise plate, Governor.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I would --
          2       I'd like to move those -- those five plates,
          3       Governor, if that'd be appropriate.
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          6            Without objection, the five plates are
          7       approved.
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
          9       there's a Federal Express package for you here.
         10       This is the Federal Express man coming up.
         11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  You might want to
         12       soak it in water, Governor.
         13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think
         14       security --
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Where's the bomb
         16       disposal?
         17            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Security has
         18       already looked at the -- I think the PLE has
         19       already looked at it.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  They have looked it?
         21            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Now,
         22       Governor --
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I thought maybe you'd
         24       found my credit card.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No, no.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            We -- well, we noticed the new vehicle you
          2       have is Florida One vehicle, the four-wheel
          3       drive.  We thought this would be appropriate to
          4       put on the front of the vehicle.
          5            And how you are prone to lose things, we've
          6       given you two of them.
          7            So if we could make a motion -- if we could
          8       both make a motion, Governor, that the he coon
          9       plate be the official front license plate of
         10       Florida Number One tag -- vehicle.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I might interpret that as
         12       a motion to adjourn.
         13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No,
         14       fortunately, the Haitian delegation is not here
         15       right now, because it might be kind of hard to
         16       translate.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I think that might be a
         18       little hard to explain.
         19            MR. DICKINSON:  Thank you, Governor,
         20       Cabinet.
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
         22            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, just on
         23       the official state tag of Florida, I want to
         24       thank the Cabinet and the Governor for including
         25       a symbol of the Florida citrus on there.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       I think it's appropriate that we do that.  It's
          2       our number one agriculture commodity.
          3            We produce more citrus in the state of
          4       Florida than all other states combined in this
          5       nation.
          6            And, Governor, you'll be glad to know that
          7       last year, it's official now, Polk County's back
          8       as king of citrus, they're back in the number
          9       one production of --
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Are they really?
         11            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- citrus in the
         12       state.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very good.
         14            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  And --
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  What I liked was the
         16       numbers, and why don't you give them to us of
         17       how much the -- the product went up.
         18            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.  We're going
         19       to have the most -- the largest and most
         20       valuable crop of citrus ever in the 100 years of
         21       our production, which is projected for next
         22       year.
         23            Michael, how --
         24            MR. SPARKS:  It's a billion dollar figure.
         25            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Little over a

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       billion dollars this year, which really
          2       translates into about an 8 billion dollar
          3       industry.  And that's really about 150,000
          4       jobs.  So --
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I think we really
          6       have to compliment the Citrus Commission,
          7       Mutual, everybody that's working on it in your
          8       department.
          9            I have never known a time in which you had
         10       increasing crop production that you had
         11       increasing prices.
         12            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Right.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's always, from the
         14       history of man, I believe, it's gone the other
         15       way.  And it's taken us -- any time we've had
         16       increased production, we had lower prices, and
         17       it took us several years to be able to start
         18       selling that crop.
         19            Here we've literally created a market.  And
         20       the demand is so great that even as the
         21       production has gone up, prices have gone up
         22       dramatically --
         23            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Tremendously.  And
         24       I --
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Very, very big.  From

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       about a dollar a box to three fifty, three sixty
          2       something a box.  Just a tremendous increase.
          3            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  And I think you and
          4       I, Governor, clearly get the credit for all of
          5       that.  Since it is up, we need to take advantage
          6       of that.
          7            In fact, the Citrus Commission is kicking
          8       off a new campaign in New York this week,
          9       I believe, at Carnegie Hall.  Lauren Bacall will
         10       be there with the American Cancer Society, the
         11       Florida -- the Heart Association, showing the
         12       valuable health benefits of citrus, which it's
         13       really unprecedented for those groups to endorse
         14       a product.
         15            And the Commission is spending a lot of
         16       money letting people know that not only is
         17       citrus good, it's good for you, and all of the
         18       United States will be hearing about that in
         19       the --
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I think, again --
         21            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- things ahead.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- the nice thing is
         23       if -- when you go to Europe, people don't ask
         24       for a glass of orange juice, they want some
         25       Florida --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  That's great.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- orange juice.  So they
          3       really know that the Florida product is the
          4       premium.  And we have been -- been able to
          5       market that.  Florida Fresh has been great.
          6       So --
          7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well, Governor, the
          8       competition for the new state license plate has
          9       been most exciting.  And all the staff members
         10       who participated in all the different Cabinet
         11       agencies trying to put together their
         12       contribution, I think they're to be commended.
         13            But I think, especially based on what
         14       you've -- and the Commissioner have been talking
         15       about in terms of the citrus industry, I think
         16       this is a very, very appropriate plate for the
         17       State of Florida.  We're real proud of it.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
         19            (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
         20       Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
         21                             *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Department of Education?
          2       Or are we -- Administrative Commission?
          3            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Revenue.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Department of
          5       Revenue.  Let's try that.
          6            MR. FUCHS:  Given the popularity of the
          7       license plate and all of the money citrus is
          8       bringing in the state, maybe I could get
          9       together with General Milligan, and we could
         10       propose a new State of Florida dollar bill,
         11       start printing our own, and design it, and --
         12            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Interesting.
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  We don't have that
         14       kind of time.
         15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You can go
         16       to jail for that --
         17            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Be careful.
         18            MR. FUCHS:  -- to add to that.  Big effort.
         19            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I approve the
         20       minutes -- I mean, I second -- I mean, I --
         21       motion on the minutes, Governor.
         22            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?
         24            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  And seconded.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                September 26, 1996
          1            Without objection, it's approved.
          2            MR. FUCHS:  Items 2 and 5 are consent rule
          3       administrative adjustments.
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
          5            MR. FUCHS:  Two through five.  I'm sorry.
          6       I misspoke.  Two through five.
          7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.
          8            MR. FUCHS:  Item 6 --
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         10            Without objection --
         11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  That is Items --
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- that's approved.
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- 2 through 5,
         14       Governor.
         15            MR. FUCHS:  Two through five.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Two through five are
         17       approved, without objection.
         18            MR. FUCHS:  Item 6 is a request for
         19       authority to enter into contracts between the
         20       Department of Revenue and the 14 Certified
         21       Public Accountants, who are listed, for tax
         22       compliance audits.  This is part of our Contract
         23       Audit Program.
         24            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                September 26, 1996
          1            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          3            Without objection, that's approved.
          4            MR. FUCHS:  Thank you.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
          6            (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
          7       concluded.)
          8                             *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Now State Board of
          2       Education.
          3            MR. PIERSON:  Item 1, our Legislative
          4       Budget Request for the Department of Education,
          5       State University System, the State Board of
          6       Community Colleges.
          7            And Commissioner Brogan will speak to that.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, and members
          9       of the State Board of Education, we have
         10       representatives from all three of those entities
         11       who are here with us today.
         12            I know that you and your staff members have
         13       received those tentative budgets.  I think we
         14       have Debi Gallay, who is here from the
         15       State University System.
         16            Debi, you might just want to come forward
         17       in the event there's a question.
         18            And Clark Maxwell was going to be here from
         19       Community Colleges.  And he is.  I see him in
         20       the back.  If he'll come forward.
         21            I would make this comment, and that is that
         22       we are all required by law to bring forward a
         23       tentative budget for the upcoming legislative
         24       session.  But I would also underscore the word
         25       tentative.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            And I'll speak more for myself than the
          2       other two in this particular case.  But as we
          3       stated last year, I think you'll probably see
          4       these budgets look a little bit differently as
          5       we move to and through the legislative session.
          6            But these are based on estimates in the
          7       category, for example, of prekindergarten
          8       through twelfth grade.  Everything that we're
          9       doing right now with this budget is based on
         10       estimate.  We don't have the luxury yet of
         11       having the reporting periods come in, and other
         12       information we're going to need to do a better
         13       job a little later down the road, of being more
         14       specific with this information.
         15            But again, we felt the best way to proceed
         16       this morning would probably be between the three
         17       of us, knowing that you and your Cabinet aides
         18       and staff members have reviewed all of this
         19       entirely.  And probably, Governor, just felt the
         20       best way to proceed would be to see if you all
         21       have any questions on any of the three.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I -- yes.  I have a
         23       couple of questions, and I haven't, you know,
         24       I think had a chance to really digest the budget
         25       request or anything.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            And I understand what you're saying, this
          2       is the first cut that you've gotten together,
          3       and it may change.
          4            In the State University System, I note that
          5       you've requested 15 million dollars for equity
          6       funding.
          7            The -- it looks like this time the
          8       Board of Regents wants to present a performance
          9       based budgeting idea.  And it seems like if
         10       we're doing that, you know, that would have
         11       some --
         12            (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
         13       room.)
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- deequalizing effect on
         15       the universities, because where before we just
         16       said we were going to keep everybody sort of in
         17       place.
         18            Now, in performance based budgeting, we're
         19       taking a different idea.  We're going to look at
         20       what you're -- what you're doing.  Should we be
         21       just continuing to increase equity funding at
         22       the same time that we're embarking on
         23       performance based?
         24            Aren't we on a -- just -- aren't they
         25       contradictory a little bit?

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MS. GALLAY:  Well, on the performance based
          2       program budgeting, right now the University
          3       System, at the request of the House, Senate, and
          4       Governor's Office, is on hold till there's some
          5       agreement among the measures.
          6            And as a result, we were requested to
          7       submit our budget without incorporating
          8       performance --
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I see.
         10            MS. GALLAY:  -- based program budgeting.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I see.
         12            MS. GALLAY:  And the issue on the equity
         13       funding, that study was done, as you know,
         14       Governor, about four years ago.  The request was
         15       for -- what was calculated was at 30 million.
         16            The dollars appropriated in the intervening
         17       three years equated to 15 of that 30 million.
         18       We -- the amount that's in the budget request is
         19       the balance.  It is not even inflated for the
         20       four intervening years.
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So it's sort of a
         22       catch-up on where we are.  You're --
         23            MS. GALLAY:  Yes, sir.
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- also waiting to see
         25       what would happen.  Well --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MS. GALLAY:  Yes, sir.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- thank you for that.
          3            Now, the other question I might have in
          4       regard to the university portion of the
          5       budget --
          6            (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
          7       room.)
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- is I understand that
          9       you have funded the -- some of the provisions
         10       for -- under the Saunders Bill, I guess it would
         11       have been where some of the lottery money went
         12       for tuition and all.
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir.
         14            Also tentative, based on the fact that
         15       according to the legislation, the
         16       PEPC Commission and the Department of Education
         17       are required to -- and we embrace that
         18       requirement --
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- go through a
         21       complete study of all of the financial
         22       assistance --
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Right.
         24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- programs in the
         25       state, which include merit based, need based, as

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       well as create language that would see us
          2       ultimately request the money to implement the
          3       lottery based scholarship program.
          4            So as Debi mentioned on your first
          5       question, we're in a similar situation on the
          6       issue of student financial assistance.  This is
          7       very tentative based on the outcome of that
          8       particular study, Governor.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, what I -- the
         10       question I have is it looks like, Debi, that
         11       this money is funded by taking money from the
         12       public education funds.  Isn't that going to --
         13            MS. GALLAY:  Okay.
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- change the balance of
         15       the --
         16            MS. GALLAY:  The way --
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  --
         18       seventy/fifteen/fifteen division.
         19            MS. GALLAY:  No, sir.
         20            The way the university request is, it still
         21       incorporates the 15 percent request.
         22       I believe --
         23            And, Commissioner, I don't want to speak
         24       out of line.
         25            -- I believe what occurred is the -- the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       lottery scholarship is funded at about
          2       15 million dollars.  That money was taken out of
          3       the public school budget, with a request for
          4       replacement of general revenue, so that no
          5       budget entity within the education -- within
          6       education is adversely affected.
          7            It was not taken out of the community
          8       college or university budget.  We still formed
          9       our budgets assuming we received 15 percent of
         10       the latest lottery estimate.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, that's a tortured
         12       answer, but does that still leave public schools
         13       70 percent?
         14            MS. GALLAY:  No.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  No.  Okay.  Well, then --
         16            MS. GALLAY:  I didn't want to speak for
         17       public schools.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Then you done robbed
         19       Peter to pay Paul, Debi.
         20            MS. GALLAY:  Well, I didn't do it.
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Like I say, Governor,
         22       the bottom line on this is until we finish the
         23       complete study and know exactly how much it's
         24       going to take to fund all three of those
         25       entities, need based, merit based, and lottery,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       and then determine where it's going to come
          2       from, it's -- I understand exactly what you
          3       mean.  But it's a little premature to be able to
          4       give you an exact answer on that.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, one other -- just a
          6       policy question, it looks like it -- the budget
          7       does not -- and this is a public education
          8       question, in effect -- did not fund full service
          9       schools.
         10            Is there a rationale for why we're not
         11       proposing funding --
         12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Just as we have in
         13       the past, looking to try to see if we can work
         14       with other agencies, like HRS, et cetera, and
         15       see if we can include that in their budgets.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Hmm.
         17            TREASURER NELSON:  May I follow-up?
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Let's see.  HRS took
         19       four hundred and something million dollars worth
         20       of cuts last year, and education got all its
         21       increase.
         22            You're going to take from them again?
         23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  No.  We just happen
         24       to think that those are more in line with HRS
         25       activities, even though they might even be

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       offered on a school campus.  And we want to see
          2       if we can work with the Legislature to earmark
          3       some funds through them.  Or if they feel
          4       there's another appropriate agency that it
          5       should go through.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          7            TREASURER NELSON:  That was a 9.2 million
          8       dollar program, basically for a one-stop shop in
          9       a school.
         10            Can y'all tell us where that 9.2 million
         11       was redirected?  On the full service school
         12       funding?
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'm not quite sure I
         14       understand your question, Commissioner.
         15            TREASURER NELSON:  There was a 9.2 million
         16       dollar full service schools was cut in this
         17       particular budget.
         18            And I was wondering:  Where was that 9.2
         19       redirected to be used for this program, and
         20       what'll happen to those services now?
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  The answer, I guess,
         22       is:  It's not anywhere right now.  And it goes
         23       back to the answer I was trying to give to the
         24       Governor, is that it remains to be seen when we
         25       get through the legislative process where it

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       will end up.
          2            If the Legislature, in other words, decides
          3       that they want to put it back in education, they
          4       will.  If they decide that they want to put it
          5       in another agency's budget, they could do that
          6       as well.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, let me just ask
          8       this question, and I'll try to leave this thing
          9       alone:  But has the Department made any
         10       recommendation, or any finding that full service
         11       schools are not beneficial, that they're not
         12       helping overall, in effect, education by
         13       allowing the -- the use of our schools, and also
         14       allowing parents to be able to get some help at
         15       areas where the school is involved?
         16            I mean, has that decision been made, or --
         17            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  No, sir.  That is
         18       not.  My point is is that --
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You just want somebody
         20       else to fund it.
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  There you go.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right, sir.
         23            I think that's basically the questions that
         24       I have now.  Thank you, sir.
         25            Yes, sir.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            TREASURER NELSON:  May I ask a couple of
          2       questions --
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
          4            TREASURER NELSON:  -- and just as a
          5       follow-up to that, for us to give our comments
          6       about sitting here as the State Board of
          7       Education, I distinctly remember hearing some
          8       great success stories about these one-stop
          9       shops, where -- where you have a variety of
         10       social, health, economic, and educational
         11       services all located at the schools.
         12            And as one member of the State Board of
         13       Education, I would be concerned about the cuts
         14       of that kind of money from the very wonderful
         15       success stories that we've heard coming out of
         16       there.
         17            If I may, just ask a couple of other
         18       questions though.  We spent a lot of attention,
         19       and you have given a great deal of time to the
         20       critically low schools.
         21            And can -- can you, Frank, or your staff,
         22       share with us which components of this budget
         23       link with the funding the critically low
         24       schools.
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  All of these

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       particular areas, I guess, in answer to your
          2       question, Commissioner, can be attributable to
          3       critically low performing schools.
          4            For example, the staff development piece,
          5       which is 12.1 million dollars, that's a
          6       7 million dollar increase over last year.
          7       That's to do a better job on the Sunshine State
          8       Standards Assessments, staff development
          9       activities for changing the program, et cetera.
         10            We also believe that there's the
         11       possibility of some Federal money again this
         12       year.  As you know, we were able to use some of
         13       that Federal money last year.  There's the
         14       possibility of having some access to Federal
         15       dollars again this year.
         16            The individual districts last year took up
         17       the charge, and I guess Dade County is probably,
         18       just by sheer size, one of the most
         19       significant.  I think they allocated 35 million
         20       dollars to their critically low performing
         21       schools.
         22            So I guess what we're saying is that
         23       between all of the entities that we're asking
         24       for in terms of budget, class size reductions,
         25       et cetera, and what the local districts are

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       doing to change the program in those schools, we
          2       hope those are going to have the most
          3       significant impact.
          4            Staff development is a big piece of
          5       changing the program in critically low school --
          6       or any school, for that matter.
          7            And, by the way, back to the other issue.
          8       Believe me, I have seen some great things
          9       happening in some of the programs that I have
         10       visited out there on some of those school
         11       campuses.
         12            And by virtue of the fact that full service
         13       schools is not in this budget, that's not an
         14       indication that some of these things aren't well
         15       received and aren't providing services that were
         16       not provided before.
         17            It simply is, as the Governor put it better
         18       than I, is trying to find a way to separate it
         19       from the education budget; and, quite frankly,
         20       still see if we can continue a lot of those
         21       activities out there.
         22            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  I would like
         23       to -- I notice that -- in here that there is a
         24       significant increase in the funding for distance
         25       learning in both community colleges and the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       universities.
          2            Is there -- is that additional funding
          3       being coordinated between community colleges and
          4       universities, and how it's going to be spent.
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well -- Clark, you
          6       want to --
          7            MR. MAXWELL:  Mr. Treasurer, we have
          8       established a Florida Institute of Postsecondary
          9       Education that's comprised of presidents of both
         10       systems, Dr. Reed and myself, a member of
         11       the Board of Regents, and the Chairman of the
         12       State Board of Community Colleges.
         13            And we are working in a very coordinated
         14       fashion through FDLN in the expenditure of those
         15       monies.  We've got a lot of checks and balances
         16       as we go forward.
         17            We're in the process, working with the --
         18       with the proviso dollars that were appropriated
         19       last year to FDLN for the purpose of
         20       postsecondary education.
         21            We are working on plans -- submitting those
         22       plans to FDLN, working in coordination with both
         23       the House and the Senate, and then through the
         24       State Board of Education, in moving forward.
         25            Last year, we had jointly requested

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       14 million dollars for postsecondary education
          2       as a recommendation of four presidents,
          3       university system, four presidents of the
          4       community college system working together.
          5            We're looking now at a continuation of
          6       those programs, and at the same time, looking at
          7       the infrastructure needs of the various systems
          8       in order to move forward with distance learning.
          9            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Thank you for
         10       that, Clark.
         11            Now, Frank, can you tell us what -- what is
         12       the budget reflecting in distance learning,
         13       if any, for the public schools?
         14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well, we have
         15       requested 75 million dollars for distribution to
         16       the 67 school districts for the use of
         17       additional technology.
         18            Also through the efforts of the Distance
         19       Learning Network, who will be reviewing, through
         20       our office, the plans being developed by those
         21       67 districts for the expenditure of that money
         22       towards technology.
         23            The real idea there is to try to prevent
         24       duplication of effort, or -- or direct people
         25       away from purchases of outdated hardware,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       et cetera, et cetera, but still give them the
          2       flexibility to design technology programs for
          3       their district.
          4            I need to say, and I know we've been
          5       working with the Governor's office on this, that
          6       the Distance Learning Network is still very much
          7       in its infancy.  And we're grappling -- believe
          8       me, as chairman of that group, I can tell you,
          9       we're grappling with some issues relative to
         10       governance, and relative to just who is going to
         11       approve what in the final analysis.
         12            I read a newspaper article not too long ago
         13       about consensus.  And let me tell you, folks, as
         14       much as I love consensus, living in the world of
         15       politics, we all know that it's great to reach
         16       consensus on everything we do, but we also know
         17       that occasionally when the rubber meets the
         18       road, you've got to vote and take a stand on
         19       something.
         20            And we're still working through that
         21       process with the Florida Distance Learning
         22       Network as well.
         23            But public schools, we hope, through the
         24       efforts of distance learning, will -- I guess
         25       the terminology is be better spending in the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       future that 75 million dollars to make certain
          2       that we're utilizing the technology
          3       appropriately.  And purchasing it.
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor --
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am.
          6            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- to follow up on that
          7       Florida Distance Learning just one step further,
          8       and I think it's a huge issue.
          9            I guess my question to you,
         10       Commissioner Brogan, is:  You're talking about
         11       voting and -- when do you -- when do you surmise
         12       that a vote will be taken that will actually --
         13       I mean, I have a problem with going to the
         14       Legislature and asking for 50 million dollars --
         15       in excess of 50 million dollars between
         16       community colleges and the university system if
         17       we haven't made some very basic decisions.
         18            And my concern is public access.  And,
         19       frankly, I'm not sure that we've totally
         20       resolved those issues.
         21            So when do you surmise that those sort of
         22       things are going to be resolved?
         23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I would suggest,
         24       Secretary, that we're going to have to have
         25       those things resolved before the Legislature

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       meets again.
          2            Or I would suggest the Legislature will fix
          3       some of those things for us.
          4            And what I continue to tell the group is
          5       that we're going to have to resolve the issue of
          6       access, we're going to have to resolve the issue
          7       of just how much authority the Distance Learning
          8       Network is going to have with groups like
          9       community colleges and university systems,
         10       et cetera.
         11            Because unless we can get it resolved here
         12       in the next several months, I'm convinced the
         13       Legislature, who created, by the way, the
         14       Distance Learning Network in the first place,
         15       will have to be the ones who are going to have
         16       to legislate some changes in just those issues.
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
         18            TREASURER NELSON:  Just one final question,
         19       Governor.
         20            Frank, since we sit as a policy making
         21       body, I'm concerned about the policy that
         22       typically has been set that we leave the matter
         23       of teachers' salaries to the local school
         24       districts.
         25            And yet Florida doesn't rank very high on

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       the 50 states in average teacher salaries, it's
          2       about 26th.
          3            Is -- is there a policy declaration, or
          4       should there be, in your budget submittal having
          5       to do with the question of the salary levels?
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Commissioner, that's
          7       a good question, and one we've wrestled with for
          8       some time.
          9            You've heard my speech on the issue of
         10       teachers' salaries.  I think the vast majority
         11       of teachers deserve more.  I think the system
         12       that we have somewhat disintegrated into over
         13       the last 20 years through the collective
         14       bargaining process has simply lent itself more
         15       toward a system that rewards completely at the
         16       local level, and rewards only -- or in large
         17       measure, for moving just from one step to the
         18       next, which in my view, is an inefficient use of
         19       salary money, and does nothing more than plug it
         20       into a group of pigeonholes with no regard for
         21       performance of the district, performance of the
         22       schools, performance of individuals.
         23            One of the things -- and that's why I
         24       underscored tentative with this budget, that
         25       we're looking at in our policy department right

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       now, is trying to, in essence, recreate
          2       something that the State of Florida was engaged
          3       in some years ago, which conceptually was a
          4       very, very fine idea.  The problem wasn't with
          5       the concept, the problem was with the process
          6       and what it became.
          7            Some years ago, if you remember, there was
          8       a program called Meritorious Schools in the
          9       State of Florida that actually rewarded a team
         10       of individuals, school site, for achieving
         11       certain increases in the performance of that
         12       school.
         13            And the idea was to award them a prorated
         14       share of dollars, allow that to be distributed
         15       among the staff members of that particular
         16       school, over and above whatever it was the
         17       individual district did.
         18            There were several flaws in the program.
         19       One, it was neither challenging nor rigorous,
         20       sadly.  The concept was good, but it never
         21       evolved into something that was truly
         22       challenging and truly rigorous, so that anyone
         23       could achieve it.  Even a critically low
         24       performing school could move their students up
         25       significantly, in -- in the rankings, and

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       provide some of that reward.
          2            But the other flaw, in my opinion, was the
          3       fact that two major contributing partners in the
          4       success of that school were the students and the
          5       parents.  And yet the only people that were
          6       awarded were the parents -- were the employees.
          7            Now, you can't give students money, as much
          8       as they might like to see that.  So what we're
          9       talking about and what we're working on now; and
         10       if we're in a position to, we'll bring forward
         11       to the Legislature this year, would be something
         12       akin to that, that uses student achievement
         13       levels, and other indicators of school progress,
         14       because standardized tests, as we all know, are
         15       not the only indication of a school's
         16       achievement.
         17            But would -- if -- if we can put it
         18       together, provide a financial reward to the
         19       employees of the school, plus an amount of money
         20       prorated that would go to the School Advisory
         21       Council to be used at their discretion so that,
         22       indeed, the -- the students and the parents and
         23       the business partners in that school can also
         24       enjoy in some of those rewards.
         25            So I agree with what -- exactly what you're

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       saying.  I think our -- our -- our pay raise
          2       range in this state is significant from lowest
          3       county up to the highest county.
          4            And -- but more importantly than that, in
          5       my opinion, is the fact that I think we simply,
          6       through collectively bargaining, allowed this
          7       system to believe that there is only one way to
          8       do this, and that is to create a salary schedule
          9       and then argue, essentially, over how much money
         10       goes into each of those pigeonholes, rather than
         11       see boards and union representatives sit down
         12       and really craft systems that will, in my
         13       opinion, reward individuals for -- for going
         14       above and beyond the call of duty.  It is not an
         15       easy thing to do, believe me.
         16            But I still think it's something that we as
         17       a state need to look at.  The only reason we
         18       hesitate from a statewide initiative is a
         19       greater disaster was the Master Teacher Program
         20       that the state entered into some years ago.  It
         21       was short-lived, thank goodness.
         22            And I think the biggest flaw in that
         23       program was the fact that we did try to create a
         24       one size fits all approach to rewarding
         25       individuals.  And we found that there -- it

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       simply was a virtual impossibility to do.  Those
          2       things are better crafted at a local level in
          3       the communities and school districts.
          4            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor, as long as
          5       we're --
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- beating this dead
          8       horse, I was -- I got an explanation on this,
          9       Frank, but I still want to raise the issue.
         10            I -- I see a 600 million dollar increase in
         11       your budget, of which less than 20 percent of it
         12       is paid by the local systems, the State is
         13       absorbing over 80 percent of that increase.
         14            And that doesn't seem to be a good balance
         15       with what I hear from you all the time about
         16       pushing responsibility, pushing accountability,
         17       and those -- funding goes with that.  And so I'm
         18       a little concerned about how it's out of whack.
         19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir.  It's an
         20       interesting system.  And if you look at it, just
         21       as you did, it appears as though the entire
         22       contribution is coming -- or the lion's share is
         23       coming from the State.
         24            But if you take it as an individual entity,
         25       and you look at a handful of counties in the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       State, for example, Martin, Collier, Monroe, and
          2       a few others, in actuality, the lion's share is
          3       coming from the local taxpayers, 90 percent, in
          4       several districts around the state of Florida;
          5       10 percent from the State.
          6            What you're addressing is the FEFP and the
          7       equalization issue that essentially does provide
          8       what I still consider to be an imbalance in some
          9       places.
         10            By the way, that compression issue which we
         11       addressed during the last session is addressed
         12       again in this budget, trying to bring more
         13       closely together the disparity, district to
         14       district, 1 to 67 on that list, is an important
         15       issue.
         16            And the whole issue of -- of the 90 percent
         17       cap, and State versus local contribution in this
         18       thing is what makes funding requests so
         19       interesting in the state of Florida.
         20            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Not happy with the
         21       explanation, but I hear it again.
         22            Thank you.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  In the --
         24            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Consistent.
         25            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  The only way to
          2       change is to totally change the funding formula
          3       for the State of Florida.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Mr. Commissioner --
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes, sir.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- if we're through with
          7       that subject, in light of the comments that you
          8       made on the last round of comments that you were
          9       making in regard to the full service school, I
         10       would like to sort of put on the record what I
         11       think is a philosophical difference, in that you
         12       had said that you're not funding the full
         13       service schools, because it was hard to do
         14       everything that education needed, I think, and
         15       to put this nine-and-a-half million dollars, or
         16       whatever it is, in there, too.
         17            I -- we initiated the full service schools
         18       early on in my administration.  And my feeling
         19       is that this is a paramount education issue.  I
         20       don't think you can teach a kid if they have
         21       physical and mental problems, if they have
         22       family problems, and all of that.
         23            And I think the whole idea of full service
         24       schools was that in every county, you would
         25       somewhere have in some kind of access that

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       parents, working parents in many instances,
          2       would have the ability to come in and interface
          3       with some of the -- our agencies.  But also we
          4       were doing that because the kids were there, the
          5       parents have to go to pick up the kids.
          6            So I think the whole basis of that was that
          7       this promoted education, this helped education.
          8       And to say that this is, you know, somebody
          9       else's job or something, I just want to --
         10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I understand --
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- put those on the
         12       record.
         13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- Governor.  And
         14       believe me, I think philosophically, the only
         15       difference that we really have is where the
         16       money resides.  It purely --
         17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well --
         18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- an accounting
         19       system, I guess, because I -- like you, I will
         20       support the money being placed somewhere,
         21       wherever the Legislature deems that is
         22       appropriate, rather than just abandon the
         23       money.
         24            Because as you and the Commissioner both
         25       mentioned, there are some good things that are

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1       going -- some very good things that are going on
          2       out there.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, sir.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a --
          6            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, just as a --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
          8            TREASURER NELSON:  -- matter for the
          9       record, likewise, I think that for the quality
         10       of teachers, we've got to address, as a matter
         11       of policy, what has traditionally just been left
         12       to the districts, which is the question of the
         13       salary levels.
         14            And as a -- just for the record, this
         15       member of the Board of Education would like to
         16       say that there needs to be some policy
         17       declaration in this budget with regard to the
         18       level of those salaries.
         19            Thank you.
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Is there a
         21       motion?
         22            TREASURER NELSON:  I move --
         23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move --
         24            TREASURER NELSON:  -- it.
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- Governor.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
          2            COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
          4            Without objection, the --
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  By the way, the
          6       motion included all three entities, Governor?
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you.
          9            MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is a request for
         10       Exception to Order of Priority for Expenditure
         11       of Capital Outlay and Debt Service Funds for
         12       Chipola Junior College.
         13            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move it.
         14            TREASURER NELSON:  Second.
         15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Been moved and seconded.
         17            Without objection, it's approved.
         18            MR. PIERSON:  Item 3 is an appointment to
         19       the Postsecondary Education Planning Commission.
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
         21            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move it.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         23            Without objection, that's approved.
         24            (The State Board of Education Agenda was
         25       concluded.)

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:
          2       Administration Commission.
          3            MS. SITTIG:  Item 1, recommend approval of
          4       the minutes of the meeting held
          5       September 10th --
          6            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So move.
          7            MS. SITTIG:  -- 1996.
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         10            Without objection, minutes are approved.
         11            MS. SITTIG:  Item 2, request deferral of
         12       this item until the next meeting.
         13            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Motion.
         14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         16            Without objection, it's approved.
         17            MS. SITTIG:  Item 3, recommend the
         18       establishment of one position in excess of the
         19       number fixed by the Legislature in the Office of
         20       the State Attorney, Second Judicial Circuit.
         21            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
         22            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
         23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
         25            Without objection, it's approved.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MS. SITTIG:  Item 4, recommend the
          2       authorization to establish one position in
          3       excess of the number fixed by the Legislature in
          4       the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
          5            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          8            Without objection, it's approved.
          9            MS. SITTIG:  That completes the agenda.
         10            (The Administration Commission Agenda was
         11       concluded.)
         12                             *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Board of Trustees.
          2            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 1, minutes.
          3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
          5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          7            Without objection, it's approved.
          8            MS. WETHERELL:  Substitute Item 2 is a
          9       purchase agreement for Oviedo to Spring Hammock
         10       Trail.
         11            And, Governor, we have four people who wish
         12       to speak very briefly about this item.
         13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Okay.
         14            MS. WETHERELL:  I'll call first on
         15       Larry Kolk, who's with the U.S. Forest Service.
         16            MR. KOLK:  Governor and Cabinet, the role
         17       of the U.S. Forest Service with the
         18       Florida National Scenic Trail has been one of an
         19       administrating agency, and in cooperation with
         20       the Florida Trail Association.  We've been
         21       managing that trail for some ten years.
         22            The Florida National Scenic Trail is a
         23       national asset.  And on any Federal lands
         24       throughout the country, national scenic trails
         25       are viewed as assets, and those states and those

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       national forests and other Federal lands that do
          2       have national scenic trails on their lands are
          3       very fortunate, and look at it as the fine asset
          4       to be administering and managing.
          5            The Florida National Scenic Trail now in
          6       Florida is recognized as a national asset.  And
          7       the Greenways program, you know very well what
          8       it means to our Greenways program.
          9            But I would ask that you consider one more
         10       value to the National Scenic Trail, and that is
         11       in terms of rural economic development.
         12            The Florida National Scenic Trail in
         13       Florida has been a -- the work of a major
         14       partnership.  And I just would like to take a
         15       moment to mention a few of the federal, state,
         16       and local government agencies and conservation
         17       groups that have been connected and a part of
         18       this partnership.
         19            The State Division of Parks and Recreation;
         20       Division of Forestry; the Office of Greenways
         21       Program and Trails; and your Water Management
         22       Districts; the -- the Florida Trail Association;
         23       and the -- the Nature Conservancy are very, very
         24       key partners with the U.S. Forest Service over
         25       these ten years.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            Federal partners:  The U.S. Forest Service;
          2       U.S. Park Service; the Fish and Wildlife
          3       Service; the Corps of Engineers; and the
          4       Department of Defense, all for ten years have
          5       been trying to put together this 1300-mile
          6       segment of the National Scenic Trail.
          7            This trail represents more -- this trail
          8       proposal that we're talking about with -- in --
          9       in the Orlando area and the -- the Rails to
         10       Trails Program, represents more than hope to
         11       this partnership, it represents perhaps the only
         12       opportunity to make this key linkage in this
         13       1300-mile section and 1300-mile recreation --
         14       outstanding recreation resource in Florida.
         15            I would ask, please, for your support of
         16       this proposal, that we can deliver -- this
         17       partnership can deliver, this National Scenic
         18       Trail, this 1300-mile asset to Florida -- that
         19       this partnership can deliver that to the
         20       citizens of Florida, and the people of this
         21       nation.
         22            Thank you.
         23            MS. WETHERELL:  Next is Kent Wimmer, who's
         24       President of the Florida Recreational Trails
         25       Council.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MR. WIMMER:  Good morning, Cabinet.  My
          2       name's Kent Wimmer.  I am the Chairman of the
          3       Florida Recreational Trails Council, I'm --
          4       serve on the Board of Directors of the Florida
          5       Trail Association.
          6            The event -- the Oviedo to Spring Hammock
          7       line provides a critical link in -- for the
          8       Florida National Scenic Trail that Larry was
          9       just talking about through the very urbanized --
         10       fast urbanizing east central Florida area.
         11            This east central Florida area is the most
         12       difficult place within the entire state of
         13       Florida that we have of trying to get this --
         14       this wilderness trail through that we're -- that
         15       we're building and developing from Big Cypress
         16       National Preserve in south Florida, all the way
         17       to Gulf Islands National Seashore south of
         18       Pensacola.
         19            After years of on the ground research by
         20       the Florida Trail Association, this -- this
         21       corridor is identified by the Florida Trail
         22       Association, U.S. Forest Service, state,
         23       regional, local planners as probably the only
         24       and best way to get through this very urbanizing
         25       area of east central Florida.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            You know, without this connection, we
          2       really feel it'd probably be impossible to
          3       protect the route for the Florida National
          4       Scenic Trail through the area.
          5            The Florida Recreational Trails Council and
          6       the Florida Trail Association urges you to
          7       approve this project, and make this trail a
          8       reality for Floridians and the visitors to
          9       Florida.
         10            Thank you very much.
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Next is Ken Bryan, who's
         12       President of the Rails to Trails Association.
         13            MR. BRYAN:  Good morning, Governor and
         14       Cabinet.
         15            I'm Ken Bryan, and I'm with the Rails to
         16       Trails Conservancy.  We're a national, nonprofit
         17       501(C) (3) organization that happens to be the
         18       nation's largest trail advocacy group in the
         19       country.
         20            And I'm here to talk about the local
         21       support for this trail.  Seminole County has
         22       enjoyed a tremendous support for trails and
         23       greenways within their community.
         24            They just recently have appointed a Trails
         25       and Greenways Task Force, which the Rails to

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       Trails Conservancy participates with.  And
          2       they've just recently adopted a Bike Ways,
          3       Trails, and Greenways Master Plan that
          4       identifies this corridor as being key.
          5            Currently, there's a 1 cent sales tax in
          6       Seminole County for transportation.  When that's
          7       due to expire, the County has directed the staff
          8       to look into renewing this 1 cent sales tax, not
          9       for transportation, not for education, but
         10       strictly for greenways and trails.
         11            And I think for a community to tax themself
         12       just for greenways and trails, that shows the
         13       tremendous support for greenways and trails in
         14       their community.
         15            We always hear about the economic impacts
         16       that these facilities have on local
         17       governments.  In the National Park Service study
         18       in 1992, it documented the St. Marks --
         19       Tallahassee/St. Marks Rail Trail as the second
         20       largest industry for Wakulla County.
         21            We've been able to calculate on a national
         22       average that the average rail trail produces
         23       2.02 million dollars per year per trail.  Now,
         24       that's in goods and services, does not -- does
         25       not include any sales tax revenue, or any income

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       revenue generated by that.
          2            Using that figure, this acquisition would
          3       pay for itself in three-and-a-half years.  Now,
          4       certainly if every investment that the
          5       State of Florida makes has the ability to pay
          6       for itself in three-and-a-half years, I think
          7       it's remarkable.  If we could get every one of
          8       our roads to be able to pay for themselves in
          9       three-and-a-half years, we certainly would have
         10       something to be proud of.
         11            So in closing, I just want to say that the
         12       Rails to Trails Conservancy strongly urges you
         13       to approve this contract.  I think the
         14       Department has -- has been -- it's incredible
         15       that they've been able to get this corridor
         16       under contract, and I urge that it be purchased.
         17            Thank you.
         18            MR. AYER:  Governor and Cabinet, I'm
         19       Fred Ayer, Director of Greenways and Trails.
         20            Just summarizing basically what the people
         21       before you have been saying.  It's part of the
         22       statewide greenways system, an integral part of
         23       a 200-mile central Florida loop.  It was
         24       negotiated hard, and we feel like it's an
         25       integral part of the statewide greenways system.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            We -- the smaller maps that you have in
          2       front of you here are indicative of what you see
          3       of the larger GIS maps, and kind of shows you
          4       how the whole area relates down in that
          5       particular area.
          6            The analogy would be the Pinellas Trail,
          7       which has millions of visitors every year, and
          8       does create lots of dollars.
          9            The greenways system itself, these counties
         10       and cities are building greenways almost faster
         11       than the State can help coordinate them.
         12            And it's important to our ecosystem's
         13       management approach, and our approach for
         14       economic benefits for the state to be able to
         15       keep buying these connectors.  Once this
         16       particular connector is done, we're in the
         17       process of buying a few other connectors, it'll
         18       loop all the way from the Withlacoochee area
         19       around Crystal River, all the way down through
         20       the Withlacoochee State Trail, down across the
         21       Lake County, back over to Orange County and
         22       Seminole County, all the way back up the Ocala
         23       National Forest to the Jacksonville and Palatka
         24       area.
         25            And had had the pleasure of four or five of

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       you on field trips, and you know a part of the
          2       area.
          3            But it should be able to help Floridians
          4       and tourists be able to hike, bike, canoe, and
          5       camp across the state of Florida.
          6            Thanks.
          7            MS. WETHERELL:  Now, any questions?
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, you know, it looks
          9       like this is a very strategic piece of property,
         10       and would add to everything that we're talking
         11       about doing, and I think we are very, very proud
         12       of what we're doing in Greenways, Rails and
         13       Trails, all of those things.
         14            My only question is:  Primarily in the --
         15       the value of this.  I recognize that CSX is a
         16       public held corporation, they've got a bottom
         17       line that they're looking at, and that's their
         18       responsibility and their job.
         19            I know that we've got a couple of
         20       appraisals here, and we're talking about whether
         21       we're going to take the highest number of those
         22       appraisals.
         23            My -- and I also know that CSX had a price
         24       originally of twenty something million dollars
         25       on this, so their asking price was maybe higher.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            Having said all that, for the life of me, I
          2       can't understand this value of $96,000 an acre,
          3       or -- is that right, ninety something thousand
          4       dollars an acre.
          5            MR. AYER:  Seventy-eight I think.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pardon?
          7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:
          8       Seventy-eight thousand.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Seventy-eight.
         10            Well, $78,000 an acre with a corridor of --
         11       of this acreage.
         12            Now, to me, I equate that kind of number
         13       with a shopping center parcel.  One of the --
         14       you know, you get into seventy-five to a hundred
         15       to a a hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars
         16       an acre, you're buying a -- you know, a prime
         17       shopping center in the most prime location.
         18            It seems like to me, you know, this is sort
         19       of a corridor.  It's not the widest piece of,
         20       you know, land I would think in the world.  And
         21       so I guess I might be saying to myself, how in
         22       the heck did appraisers -- do appraisers get
         23       this kind of number on it.  I just --
         24            MS. WETHERELL:  We do have someone here
         25       from our agency who can explain --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, maybe we should,
          2       because I --
          3            MS. WETHERELL:  -- the appraisal
          4       methodology.
          5            Ike Jacobsen from the --
          6            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You know, I --
          7            MS. WETHERELL:  -- DEP is here.
          8            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- Governor, I agree
          9       with you.  I support the greenways and the
         10       trails enthusiastically.
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         12            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But, you know, to
         13       put it very simply, they don't think much of
         14       this down at the 7-Eleven.  You talk to a
         15       taxpayer down there about paying $78,000 an acre
         16       for a railroad bed, and I guarantee you, you'll
         17       get some thousand yard stares.
         18            It just doesn't make any sense to me at
         19       all.
         20            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --
         21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
         22            TREASURER NELSON:  -- not just a railroad
         23       bed, an abandoned railroad bed.
         24            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.  Thank you.
         25            TREASURER NELSON:  I have a document here

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       entitled Appraisal Review.  And if you all would
          2       comment on this.
          3            And I certainly agree with the two previous
          4       speakers, the public policy of supporting these
          5       rails to trails and greenways is solid.  The
          6       question is one of compensation here.
          7            This appraisal review arrives at this
          8       figure, an average figure of 78,000 by comparing
          9       this abandoned railroad property to commercial
         10       land sales from 84,000 to 185,000 -- this is
         11       Mr. Carpenter's appraisal.
         12            His appraisal of industrial land sales from
         13       36,000 to a 103,000 per acre; his mixed use land
         14       sales from 21,000 to 42,000 per acre; his PUD,
         15       office commercial land sales from 110,000 to
         16       232,000 per acre; his residential land sales
         17       from 27,000 to 77,000 per acre.
         18            And how can you take that kind of -- of
         19       appraisal of land that is set-aside for all of
         20       those uses, commercial, industrial, mixed use,
         21       PUD, residential, and apply it to an abandoned
         22       railroad?
         23            MS. WETHERELL:  I'm going to let the expert
         24       talk to you.  But let me just give you a very
         25       brief explanation of why I think that it makes

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       sense.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pull your mic down just a
          3       little bit.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  You know, if you look at
          5       the Pinellas Trail and think today of purchasing
          6       the Pinellas Trail property, and the kind of
          7       areas that the Pinellas Trail goes through, you
          8       would understand the -- what you'd have to pay
          9       for that property today.  And you think about
         10       the hundreds of thousands of citizens who use
         11       that, the recreational value, and the economic
         12       development benefits that you get from it, and
         13       consider all those things.
         14            Today when you're purchasing 13 miles
         15       through highly developed, through commercial,
         16       through mixed use properties, and you base
         17       that -- value of that property on the adjacent
         18       property, the value of that property to the
         19       adjacent property, comparable sales, and you
         20       come up with those kinds of numbers that range
         21       from 35,000 to $200,000 an acre, it's a lot of
         22       money.  You know, and I have the same reaction,
         23       it's a lot of money.
         24            So the question becomes, you know, if you
         25       want a greenways and trail system through the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       state of Florida, and you're purchasing it
          2       today, and you know you won't have the
          3       opportunity 10 years from now, that those
          4       properties will be developed, they will be in
          5       some other use, you consider those things, and
          6       decide if -- it's too bad we didn't purchase it
          7       10 years ago or 20 years.
          8            But we're operating today in trying to get
          9       a linked greenway system throughout the state,
         10       not only for people, but for wildlife.  It's
         11       part of a planned system for the last several
         12       years.
         13            So, to me, that's where it gets -- the
         14       value is in what it means to the citizens of
         15       Florida and to the wildlife in Florida, and it's
         16       going to be a lost opportunity down the road.
         17            But let me let the -- our appraisal expert
         18       go further.
         19            MR. JACOBSEN:  My name is Ike Jacobsen with
         20       the Bureau of Appraisal at DEP.
         21            The appraisers on this project used what we
         22       call in the valuation technique, the at-fence or
         23       across-the-fence value.  And that's where they
         24       take comparable sales of land that goes to
         25       different highest and best uses, and apply these

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       values -- these units of value to the land
          2       that's affected or in that highest and best
          3       use.
          4            You add them altogether for a corridor, and
          5       you come up with these -- with these values.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Let me ask you:  How wide
          7       is this right-of-way that we're talking about?
          8            MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE:  Eighty to a
          9       hundred feet.
         10            MR. JACOBSEN:  Eighty to a hundred feet.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Eighty to a
         12       hundred feet.  You know, at some stage, I
         13       thought an appraisal is looking at highest and
         14       best use, you know, what are the commercial
         15       things it can be used for.
         16            With 80 to 100 feet, there ain't every use
         17       in the world they could -- you can use it for.
         18       And it seems to me, if you're comparing it to a
         19       PUD, if you're comparing it to a shopping
         20       center, if you're comparing it to a filling
         21       station site, you know, you're talking about
         22       enough land to build a filling station, enough
         23       land to build a shopping center.
         24            And so at some stage, you've got to segment
         25       this down to parcels that are 80 to 100 feet,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       and you've got to say, what's that worth?
          2            MR. JACOBSEN:  Well --
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  And I guess that's,
          4       again, where you've got to help me.  I can't get
          5       my mind around that, and just saying that
          6       compares to the doctor's office across the
          7       street --
          8            MR. JACOBSEN:  Right.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- to anything else that
         10       is there.
         11            MR. JACOBSEN:  Right.
         12            Again, when you're valuing corridors,
         13       that's one of the valuation techniques, is to
         14       take the at-the-fence or across-the-fence
         15       value.
         16            And, again, I reiterate that the appraiser
         17       looks at the comparable sales of those highest
         18       and best uses, derives a unit of value, and
         19       applies that value to that area that's impacted
         20       or affected by that highest and best use.
         21            TREASURER NELSON:  With no discount by
         22       virtue of the fact that it's only 80 feet wide,
         23       and, therefore, has a limited utility.
         24            MR. JACOBSEN:  But would -- it would have
         25       limited utility as a stand-alone parcel.  But

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       when you're valuing corridors, what you do is
          2       look at what that value that -- typically a
          3       commercial site asks for X dollars per square
          4       foot.
          5            What they do is apply that value to that
          6       part of the corridor that's right adjacent to
          7       that land.  If it's a commercial --
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You can have a hell of a
          9       long strip shopping center if you're going --
         10            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, when --
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- to go with -- at
         12       80 feet, you know.
         13            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  When does good --
         14       when does good judgment and common sense enter
         15       into this model that you --
         16            MR. JACOBSEN:  Well, the good judgment and
         17       common sense comes with -- when the appraiser
         18       estimates the highest and best use of the
         19       corridor as it goes through those varying land
         20       uses.
         21            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, you know, it
         22       seems to me, for this $78,000 an acre, through
         23       an area that is not a wilderness -- we just
         24       heard that, that it's a well developed area --
         25       that I could buy an awful lot of trails on

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       existing road networks, or adjacent to existing
          2       road networks that we already own, and solve the
          3       same problem.
          4            It just does not make one bit of sense, to
          5       me.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I guess the -- some
          7       other question that just sort of come to mind,
          8       Madam Secretary, you said we should have bought
          9       it 10 years ago, or 20.  I'm sure we should
         10       have.
         11            But also what we do here today, there are
         12       going to be some other trails we want to build.
         13       There are some other abandoned railroads that we
         14       want to build.
         15            Are we establishing now a price --
         16       you know, we want to see a high speed rail in
         17       Florida.  The Florida east coast railroad may be
         18       an area of which we're looking at a corridor,
         19       you know, with the St. Joe, you know, with the
         20       Florida east coast there.  There are other areas
         21       that we'll be looking at.
         22            Have we been paying this kind of value
         23       before, I guess, is what I want to know?
         24            And the Pinellas Trail or some of these
         25       things that you've talked about, you know, did

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       we do things like that as we were doing that?
          2       Maybe this has all slipped by me, and I just
          3       haven't seen it.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  Well, this is the ninth
          5       acquisition that we've made under the rails to
          6       trails -- the seventh out of the P 2000 money.
          7       And I don't recall -- my memory's not that good
          8       to tell you what we've paid per acre.
          9            If there's anyone here who remembers --
         10            MR. STASKIEWS:  I -- I can --
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Bruce can?
         12            Okay.  This is Bruce Staskiews from DEP.
         13            MR. STASKIEWS:  Hello.
         14            On the Pinellas Trail, that was acquired
         15       primarily by the Department of Transportation.
         16       And we bought one small portion of that the last
         17       year where we paid for 2,000 feet of the
         18       corridor, which was about 3.2 acres.  That was
         19       $261,000 because of the valuation of this
         20       across-the-fence method.
         21            On this particular --
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Per acre?
         23            MR. STASKIEWS:  It would have come out
         24       about $90,000 an acre.  But it's -- you know,
         25       it's valued on the length of the corridor.  And

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       a corridor that's approximately 90 feet wide, 80
          2       to 100 feet wide is about 500 linear feet.  So
          3       it depends on what value classification that
          4       length falls into.  And then that value is
          5       attributed to what the adjacent property would
          6       be.
          7            In this particular one, when this corridor
          8       was originally offered by CSX, they had offered
          9       it to Florida Power Corporation for 20 million
         10       dollars.
         11            And then the Seminole County Board of
         12       Commissioners made an offer on it last November
         13       for 4 million dollars.  And CSX dropped down to
         14       15 million dollars.
         15            When we got our appraisals in, and had
         16       talked with Seminole County and every -- with
         17       what they had done, we had made the original
         18       offer at 7.4 million, and CSX countered back,
         19       11.2 million.
         20            And then after there was a meeting at CSX,
         21       they were -- they wanted to retain rights on the
         22       corridor.  They wanted to sell it for full
         23       value; retain underground rights; aboveground
         24       surface rights for buildings, towers,
         25       billboards, and everything.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            And we said that was absolutely
          2       unreasonable, that we were not going to allow
          3       them to retain all those rights to the corridor.
          4            And so their offer at that time, they had
          5       dropped down to 8.2 million dollars.  We had
          6       tried to work with them with another strategy
          7       that they were trying to employ, which was
          8       called a marketing agreement.
          9            And this marketing agreement was to allow
         10       them, we would own the corridor outright, but
         11       would allow them to go out and find customers
         12       for underground utilities, and that type of
         13       arrangement, for utilities, fiber optics, any
         14       kind of cable type of operation.
         15            And then with that, they wanted to share
         16       80 percent of the revenues that were gained from
         17       that, and the State could get 20.
         18            And we worked with them and tried to come
         19       to some kind of agreement where we could jointly
         20       use this, and we just couldn't get anywhere with
         21       them that they wouldn't budge on it.
         22            So then when we came up with this last
         23       offer in August of the seven million five
         24       hundred and twenty-nine thousand dollars, that
         25       was for a full fee to the property without them

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       retaining any rights at all.
          2            And, you know, this is -- working with
          3       them -- I mean, this has been going on for
          4       almost a year.  And, granted, it's a lot of
          5       money.  But to try and create something like
          6       this that goes through the area that it does,
          7       that it's very scenic in places, that most of it
          8       is in locations where it will be a recreational
          9       trail that can be used for equestrian use,
         10       hiking, biking, roller blading.
         11            And -- I mean, the opportunity isn't there
         12       any more.  I mean, once we go through this, and
         13       if they decide that -- you know, we decide not
         14       to buy it, and this is gone, then we will be
         15       buying things adjacent to road rights of way.
         16       We can't create a corridor like this in the
         17       future.
         18            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Can I ask a quick
         19       question?
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am.
         21            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Is it your -- is it
         22       your determination that this is absolutely the
         23       lowest price that the State is going to get this
         24       property?
         25            MR. STASKIEWS:  Yes.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  The only -- the only
          2       comment I'd make is that being very attuned to
          3       the Pinellas Trail, having been on it a fair
          4       number of times, is that it is -- it is heavily
          5       used.  It's phenomenal to me how many people do
          6       use the trail.  And --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, that's right.
          8            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- and you do have to
          9       be somewhat careful where you put a trail like
         10       that.  And it -- I mean, I think this is an
         11       unbelievable amount of money --
         12            MR. STASKIEWS:  This can -- I'm sorry.
         13            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  But, you know, I don't
         14       know where we go from here.
         15            MR. STASKIEWS:  This one connects --
         16       I mean, there's schools it connects, it connects
         17       parks.  I mean, it's just really a gem of this
         18       type of corridor.
         19            I mean, we've purchased other corridors,
         20       and we're still trying to buy corridors that are
         21       out in rural areas that, you know, they go
         22       through -- long stretches of just very
         23       underutilized property, and there aren't that
         24       many users on some of these.
         25            This one -- I mean, the county is already

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                                September 26, 1996
          1       trying to get the Boy Scouts out there to clean
          2       it up, the National Guard to build -- rebuild
          3       the trestles.  I mean, they've got all this
          4       lined up, and they're ready to go with this.
          5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I know you've been
          6       through a -- y'all have been through a long
          7       process of negotiation.  It sounds like you've
          8       tried to work very hard at that.
          9            Did you explore when you were going through
         10       that, opportunities of CSX making a gift of part
         11       of the provision?
         12            In other words, if they had an offer of
         13       20 million at one time, obviously they got
         14       something to back that up, that they could have
         15       called it for their purposes a higher value, or
         16       something, and -- and then make a gift to us --
         17            MR. STASKIEWS:  That --
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- we also have the
         19       opportunity of a friendly condemnation,
         20       you know -- I mean, of going through something
         21       like that of establishing -- I mean, I'm not
         22       trying to second-guess you.  But --
         23            MR. STASKIEWS:  Well, on this particular
         24       one, they have indicated that they have a value
         25       that they can support that is, you know, much

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       higher than what this is.  And that was part of
          2       the thing, that we would sign an IRS form saying
          3       that, you know, that they --
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So you're already doing
          5       that.
          6            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- charitable
          7       contribution --
          8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yeah.
          9       But --
         10            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- on their part.
         11            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- Governor,
         12       I think the research is back, we may be our own
         13       worst enemies here.
         14            I kind of think the only buyer has been
         15       government.  And we'll probably end up bidding
         16       against ourselves.
         17            So if there are any other buyers out there,
         18       that would make a difference.  But I think we
         19       can go back almost, what, almost a decade ago
         20       when we purchased, what, 51 miles of railway for
         21       the high speed rail.
         22            And the Legislature appropriates only
         23       235 million dollars for it, and it was well over
         24       $100,000 an acre.
         25            And in that particular agreement, the

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                                September 26, 1996
          1       Legislature -- I think the Legislature agreed to
          2       the terms, even before negotiation occurred,
          3       where they allowed the railroad to keep all the
          4       proceeds -- I think it was MCI -- was using
          5       along the whole way.
          6            Plus the -- the company -- the railroad
          7       company was then contracted with by the State in
          8       order to manage this particular railroad to
          9       where the State or the counties had to pay an
         10       additional 19 cents I think per mile per -- per
         11       railroad car that we put on it, plus they were
         12       also going to use it for their own purpose.
         13            In other words, they sold it to us at full
         14       value, and that was full value, across-the-fence
         15       value; and then we gave it back to them and paid
         16       rent on it.
         17            So I think we have, in essence, spoiled the
         18       industry.  I'll have to see what some other
         19       states might be doing, and go back and maybe
         20       research the entire history of this thing.
         21            If it comes out to where we're competing
         22       against ourselves, and there are no other
         23       bidders out there, I agree with
         24       General Milligan, I do not believe that the
         25       people at the 7-Eleven are going to agree with

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       it.
          2            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, if you'll
          3       allow me, I want to follow up on that.  And you
          4       may not know the answer to this question.
          5            But you alluded to the fact that one of the
          6       people who were originally in negotiations for
          7       the property was someone with
          8       telecommunications, I don't remember who you
          9       said.
         10            MR. STASKIEWS:  Florida Power Corporation.
         11       That's --
         12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Okay.
         13            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- seems --
         14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you.
         15            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- to be one of our biggest
         16       competitors.
         17            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So it goes -- it goes
         18       back to what the General said, the original
         19       request laid on the table was 20 million dollars
         20       for them.  And then we were next, as they came
         21       down.
         22            Do you know what happened to the
         23       negotiations with the power company?
         24            MR. STASKIEWS:  No, I don't.  I mean --
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is it still ongoing,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       or --
          2            MR. STASKIEWS:  Not to my knowledge.
          3       Because I don't think that was really that
          4       desirable a corridor for the Florida Power,
          5       because they already had --
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  It seems like it --
          7            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- the time --
          8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- just got several
          9       million dollars more desirable as --
         10            I just wonder:  Are we negotiating with
         11       anybody else today actively, or is it pretty
         12       much just us --
         13            MR. STASKIEWS:  It's the -- the utility
         14       companies, Florida Power, Florida Power & Light
         15       possibly, and the Department of Transportation
         16       are the ones that are generally interested in
         17       the full corridors.
         18            CSX did advertise this to just -- advertise
         19       this property to the public, and they had
         20       interest from adjacent land owners for buying
         21       that portion in front of their property.
         22            However, CSX would prefer to sell the
         23       entire corridor, and not have to cash this out
         24       over --
         25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And I guess the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       reason for my question, I'm trying to
          2       determine -- and I know y'all have done a lot of
          3       work on negotiating this.
          4            I'm trying to determine if, in fact, there
          5       is the possibility of further negotiations.
          6       And, of course, those negotiations, as the
          7       General mentioned, driven with other people who
          8       may have an active interest in this property as
          9       well.
         10            That always make the negotiation a little
         11       more -- a little sweeter, if you will, if
         12       somebody else wants it, too.
         13            I'm like the Secretary, I'm trying to
         14       figure out -- because I'm second to none in my
         15       appreciation of the process and the project.
         16       I've been on that trail myself I can't tell you
         17       how many times.  It's marvelous.
         18            I'm trying to figure out:  Are we at the
         19       point in your opinion, where if we vote against
         20       it today, it's gone?  Or do you feel as though
         21       there's the potential for some additional
         22       negotiation?
         23            MR. STASKIEWS:  Well, I think you people
         24       have more clout than I do with them, that if --
         25       if you did turn it down, they may listen to

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       that.
          2            But listening -- you know, we've done what
          3       we can through our office.
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  Let me also say that,
          5       Governor, you may recall that in the first of
          6       the summer I told you that I made a trip over to
          7       CSX to talk to their officials about this
          8       issue.  Because it's bigger than this one
          9       acquisition.  It's kind of the future of the
         10       greenways and trails program.
         11            And the discussion really was around,
         12       you know, less than fee, or the reservation of
         13       certain rights.  Their leadership has apparently
         14       come to the realization that selling these lands
         15       off, as they had been doing, these abandoned
         16       trails -- railroad trails over the years, is
         17       maybe not a smart move on their behalf because
         18       of the potential down the road, maybe not today,
         19       but for utilities, for fiber optics.
         20            So we were proceeding -- I was hopeful when
         21       I left that meeting that we could proceed toward
         22       some kind of agreement where we could pay less
         23       than value, and they could retain some,
         24       you know, utility rights for the future.
         25            That's where we tried to negotiate, and you

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       heard that then they became -- came back with
          2       wanting 80 percent, et cetera.
          3            The good news on this particular deal is
          4       that the Board of Trustees now will be able to
          5       lease those out over time when that becomes
          6       feasible.
          7            So there is some revenue potential for
          8       leasing for compatible linear uses over time for
          9       the Board of Trustees.
         10            And --
         11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So for a layman then,
         12       similar to our trail here in Tallahassee, you
         13       could have the trail for biking, for horseback
         14       riding, et cetera, et cetera, but are you saying
         15       that we then could negotiate with a power
         16       company or a telecommunications company --
         17            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.  We thought --
         18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- to access some of
         19       that right-of-way to lay fiber optic line, or
         20       whatever it happened to be?
         21            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.  We thought it was
         22       compatible.  And my discussion with the CSX
         23       officials was along those lines that, you know,
         24       you can use a portion of that -- of the width of
         25       that, and to lay and to bury certain types of,

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       you know, cables, pipes, et cetera.
          2            That's what CSX a long time -- that's what
          3       the railroads around the country are --
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, it --
          5            MS. WETHERELL:  -- now beginning to see,
          6       that --
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- it seems to me that we
          8       are going to be looking for corridors, we
          9       already are for laying cable --
         10            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- laying of certain
         12       utilities.  We know that that's terribly
         13       expensive again for them to go -- and to have
         14       something -- if it does not interrupt the
         15       horseback riding, the bicycling, the other
         16       things, you lay that fiber down there, you know,
         17       we see a lot of good trails now --
         18            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- that -- or some that
         20       are along right-of-way where there other uses
         21       are existing, that that can make sense.
         22            I would say, I don't take a lot of comfort,
         23       Ginger, in the fact that we're going to lease it
         24       any better than we're doing -- as we purchase
         25       things, you know.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MS. WETHERELL:  Yeah.
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  That's not our business.
          3       We are -- we're not those kind of negotiators,
          4       I think.
          5            The idea of taking less than fee seems to
          6       me to make some sense, not if it's giving them
          7       right to billboards and, you know, do anything
          8       above, or -- that wouldn't allow it to be a
          9       scenic trail.
         10            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  But if it's things that
         12       are going underground, that are not going to be
         13       there, they're not going to be obtrusive,
         14       you know, those kind of things would make sense.
         15            I really -- I think for myself, and I think
         16       I'm speaking for the group here, we don't want
         17       to do something that's going to keep us from not
         18       having this trail.  We think it's very important
         19       that we have now.
         20            At the same time, I guess I'd have to say,
         21       this is the first time it's come to my attention
         22       like this, that we're using this kind of method
         23       to make appropriations.
         24            And knowing that literally we are going to
         25       be facing this, and a lot of times in the

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       future, I don't know that I could say I'm
          2       prepared to have to vote on this right now,
          3       because, you know, that would be very, very
          4       tough to do.
          5            I'm just wondering if we shouldn't workshop
          6       this, or look at this a little bit, or at least
          7       try to understand it better from my part.  I --
          8            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Could I ask --
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
         10            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- a quick
         11       question?
         12            I heard someone comment that
         13       Seminole County, I guess, had 4 million dollars
         14       on the table at one time to purchase this piece
         15       of property.
         16            What has happened to that
         17       4 million dollars?
         18            MR. STASKIEWS:  I think they've expended
         19       that in their Environmental Lands Program.
         20       There may be something left there, but I'm
         21       not -- I'm not certain.
         22            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Were they looking to
         23       purchase the property for recreational purposes
         24       as well?
         25            MR. STASKIEWS:  Yes.  That was going to be

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       a joint agreement with us to acquire that at
          2       that time when they made that offer.
          3            MR. AYER:  They would manage it.
          4            MR. STASKIEWS:  And they still would intend
          5       to manage this entire --
          6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  But the bottom line,
          7       according to the General's question, is that the
          8       money, to your knowledge, does no -- doesn't
          9       exist --
         10            MR. STASKIEWS:  Right.  And that was using
         11       our money also in there, too.  So they were
         12       going to -- were negotiating on our behalf.
         13            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.  But they had
         14       4 million dollars that they were ready to put
         15       on --
         16            MR. STASKIEWS:  That they had --
         17            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- the table.
         18            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- they had offered on
         19       that.
         20            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But they have
         21       expended it.
         22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I'll have to say, I
         23       am impressed with what we heard today about what
         24       Seminole County has been doing.  And it sounds
         25       like they're not just saying, you do it all for

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       us.
          2            If they're talking about even extending a
          3       transportation tax or a sales tax, that's pretty
          4       major, you know.  So I'd say they're being
          5       partners with us.
          6            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Well, and just to
          7       follow up on that, Governor, Seminole -- some of
          8       the Commission has been in contact with the
          9       office.
         10            And how much -- I mean, they've got a
         11       dedicated amount of money that they do plan to
         12       put towards this trail as far as the actual
         13       development --
         14            MR. STASKIEWS:  Design and development of
         15       it.
         16            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Right.
         17            How much is that going to ultimately
         18       cost --
         19            MR. STASKIEWS:  That is --
         20            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- them?
         21            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- something that they
         22       would generally get from the Department of
         23       Transportation under the ISTEA grant program.
         24            As far as their own money, I'm -- I'm not
         25       aware of how much that would be.  But the --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       the -- generally for these type projects, the
          2       design and development funding comes from
          3       the Department of Transportation.
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  What would your
          5       estimate be for the development of this
          6       project?
          7            I know Pinellas was unbelievable.  I mean,
          8       a lot of money.
          9            MR. STASKIEWS:  I couldn't even comment on
         10       that.
         11            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Okay.
         12            MR. AYER:  Jax Baldwin Trail come out of
         13       the city of Jacksonville, toward Baldwin, so the
         14       development's going to be about
         15       3.2 million dollars.  And the City of
         16       Jacksonville will manage that particular line.
         17            And that's another example of, you know, us
         18       buying it, soliciting a City to manage it, and
         19       to develop it, which is the kind of business we
         20       don't need to be in, other than the acquisition
         21       portion of it.
         22            We're encouraged in our -- in what we've
         23       been doing with greenways and trails, that the
         24       local cities and counties are participating a
         25       lot more than what they used to, because they're

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       seeing the obvious benefit of the economic --
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Right.
          3            MR. AYER:  -- impact to the area.
          4            McDonald's that you speak of in
          5       Pinellas County changed its front entrance from
          6       the other side to the front entrance toward the
          7       trail it generated so much business.
          8            And --
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pretty good.
         10            MR. AYER:  -- you know, this is -- it's
         11       just something that's going to have to be
         12       addressed, we go -- as we go through the
         13       Branford to the -- some of the smaller areas
         14       they've been talking about, the rural areas, we
         15       run into entirely different situations.
         16            And these urban areas are going to be tough
         17       for us, they're the only ones left.  Any of us
         18       could go to, you know, Seminole or the Orlando
         19       area now, and they -- you try to buy what you
         20       want to buy, and it's just hard to get to.
         21            I agree with the General in his 7-Eleven
         22       test and the common sense approach toward our
         23       citizenry, you know, about how you can sell
         24       this.
         25            But I'm not sure what's left whenever we

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       start looking at a statewide map, we've been
          2       working so hard on, and we've been directed by
          3       the Legislature to try to produce this statewide
          4       map, not just for recreation, but for greenway
          5       corridors, and ecosystems, too.
          6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Further discussion?
          7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, I guess to
          8       try to bring this to some closure, again, I'm
          9       sure not going to speak for the group, I'm going
         10       to speak for me.
         11            I'm -- I'm just uncomfortable trying to
         12       bring this to a decision today, because I'm not
         13       quite sure we're at a drop-dead point on this
         14       thing yet where we're going to have to say just
         15       yes or no.
         16            It appears as though hearing from the
         17       Secretary, there may still be one or two
         18       possibilities that exist out there in terms of
         19       negotiation.
         20            And before we just write it off, or before
         21       we consider passing it at that price, I, for
         22       one, would be interested in giving it another
         23       whack, and deferring or withdrawing the issue,
         24       and bringing it back again before we have the
         25       opportunity to finally say yea or nay.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            MS. WETHERELL:  This purchase -- for your
          2       information, this purchase agreement has a
          3       November 8th or 6th --
          4            MR. STASKIEWS:  November 6th was the --
          5            MS. WETHERELL:  -- 6th.
          6            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- closing date in the
          7       agreement.
          8            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
          9            MR. STASKIEWS:  But --
         10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well, unfortunately,
         11       I think you can see what the agreement would be
         12       if we had to vote on it today.
         13            MS. WETHERELL:  Right.  Right.  I just
         14       wanted you to know that.
         15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Closing dates --
         16            MR. STASKIEWS:  But they -- with CSX, they
         17       generally want to close by the end of the year.
         18       I mean, that's --
         19            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
         20            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- the bottom line.
         21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Well, I would think
         22       that in terms of negotiation, based on
         23       everything you've said -- and by the way,
         24       everything you've done.  I sure don't want you
         25       to make it appear as though that me, or anybody

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       else, are --
          2            MR. STASKIEWS:  Sure.
          3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- are going over top
          4       of your negotiations.  I know you've put a lot
          5       of work in on it.
          6            But I think based on the importance of the
          7       property, and based on some of the things you've
          8       heard today, one more shot, in my opinion,
          9       before it's finally determined may be worth it.
         10            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If -- if we were to
         11       say no today, does that end the issue, or could
         12       you go back and negotiate?
         13            MS. WETHERELL:  We will go back and try
         14       again.
         15            MR. STASKIEWS:  Yeah, we --
         16            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I think --
         17            MR. STASKIEWS:  -- certainly will.
         18            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.
         19            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I think,
         20       personally, that we've got to send the right
         21       kind of signal.  I think this is too much
         22       money.
         23            And I, for one, am ready to vote no.
         24            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I'm voting

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1       no.  So you've got two no votes anyway.
          2            MR. STASKIEWS:  Okay.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a -- is there a
          4       motion on the project?
          5            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I will say again,
          6       Governor, that I think that we ought to send
          7       them a strong signal.  And I make a motion
          8       that -- I move this, but I am planning on voting
          9       no.  And let them go back to the drawing board,
         10       they can do it.
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I would just sort
         12       of urge that -- I think we might get ourselves
         13       more into a mess if we vote it down.  I just
         14       think it might be better to pull it now, or to
         15       delay it, or something.
         16            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll bow to your
         17       good judgment.
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I -- I thank you
         19       for that.
         20            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll make a motion
         21       that we defer.
         22            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
         23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded we
         24       defer.
         25            Is there discussion?

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            Without objection --
          2            MS. WETHERELL:  Okay.  We will -- we will
          3       try once more.
          4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
          5            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Thank you.
          6            Item 3 is a donation of 6,000 acres from
          7       Cytec Brewster Phosphate --
          8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  What do you mean they're
          9       going to donate 6,000?
         10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  That's the good
         11       news.  The bad news, it's only 3 feet wide.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Who negotiated that
         13       deal?
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Let's have
         15       them negotiate with CSX.
         16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  It's called the tight
         17       rope to trails program.  It's --
         18            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's
         19       right.
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- something new
         21       we're trying here.
         22            MS. WETHERELL:  And this also is
         23       conservation easement to Southwest
         24       Water Management District.  Part of --
         25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a motion?

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
          2            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move, Governor.
          3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
          4            Without objection, we will take it.
          5            MS. WETHERELL:  And I'd like to express my
          6       gratitude to Cytec for that donation.  I've been
          7       here eight years, and we don't often see this --
          8       this happen.
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I think we
         10       definitely should.
         11            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.  Thank you.
         12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  The Governor and the
         13       Cabinet's gratitude as well.
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  They have a
         15       history of doing that.  They did it on the
         16       Peace River case with us also, Governor.  They
         17       were very easy -- were nice to deal with on the
         18       Peace River.  So this is a very good company to
         19       deal with.
         20            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.
         21            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Maybe CSX
         22       will hire some of their managers.
         23            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes.  Thank you.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1            (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
          2       Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
          3                             *
          4            (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
          5       12:12 p.m.)

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                September 26, 1996
          1                 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
          4   STATE OF FLORIDA:
          5   COUNTY OF LEON:
          6            I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
          7   the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
          8   time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
          9   notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
         10   pages numbered 1 through 104 are a true and correct
         11   record of the aforesaid proceedings.
         12            I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
         13   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
         14   nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
         15   or financially interested in the foregoing action.
         16            DATED THIS 7TH day of OCTOBER, 1996.
         19                           LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
                                      100 Salem Court
         20                           Tallahassee, Florida 32301
                                      (904) 878-2221

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.