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                                T H E    C A B I N E T

                           S T A T E    O F   F L O R I D A



                            STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                               DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                               STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                              ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                               TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
                                IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND

                    The above agencies came to be heard before THE 
              FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Chiles presiding, in the 
              Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The Capitol, Tallahassee, 
              Florida, on Thursday, June 13, 1996, commencing at 
              approximately 9:40 a.m.

                                     Reported by:

                             SANDRA L. DiBENEDETTO-NARGIZ
                           Registered Professional Reporter
                             Certificate of Merit Holder
                               Notary Public in and For
                            the State of Florida At Large


                          ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                   100 SALEM COURT
                                TALLAHASSEE, FL  32301
                                   1-800-934-9090 (FL)


          1   APPEARANCES:

          2                   Representing the Florida Cabinet:

          3                   LAWTON CHILES,
                              BOB CRAWFORD
          5                   Commissioner of Agriculture

          6                   BOB MILLIGAN
                              SANDRA B. MORTHAM
          8                   Secretary of State

          9                   BOB BUTTERWORTH
                              Attorney General
                              BILL NELSON
         11                   Treasurer

         12                   FRANK T. BROGAN
                              Commissioner of Education














                                      I N D E X


          4   (Presented by Barbara Jarriel,
                    Acting Executive Director)

          6   ITEM                     ACTION                   PAGE

              1                        Approved                 11
          8   2                        Approved                 11
              3                        Approved                 11
          9   4                        Approved                 12
              5                        Approved                 12
         10   6                        Approved                 12
              7                        Approved                 13
         11   8                        Approved                 13
              9                        Deferred                 18
         12   10                       Approved                 19
              11                       Deferred                 19
         13   12                       Approved                 21


         15   (Presented by Ben Watkins and Susan Leigh, Executive 
              Director, Florida Housing Finance Agency)

              ITEM                     ACTION                   PAGE
              1                        Approved                 22
         19   2                        Approved                 22
              3                        Approved                 23
         20   4                        Approved                 33







              (Presented by Wayne Pierson, Deputy Commissioner of 
          3         Planning and Budgeting)

              ITEM                     ACTION                   PAGE

          6   1                        Approved                 35
              2                        Approved                 37
          7   3                        Approved                 37
              4                        Approved                 38
          8   5                        Approved                 38
              6                        Approved                 38


         11   (Presented by Gale Sittig,
                    Deputy Director)

              ITEM                     ACTION                   PAGE
              1                        Approved                 39
         15   2                        Approved                 39
              3                        Approved                 39
         16   4                        Approved                 40
              5                        Approved                 40
         17   6                        Deferred                 40
              7                        Approved                 40
         18   8                        Approved                 41
              9                        Approved                 41
         19   10                       Approved                 41
              11                       Approved                 42
         20   12                       Approved                 42
              13                       Approved                 42
         21   14                       Approved                 42








                    (Presented by Kirby Green, Deputy Secretary)

          5   ITEM                     ACTION                   PAGE

              1                        Approved                 44
          7   2                        Approved                 44
              3                        Approved                 44
          8   4                        Approved                 45
              5                        Approved                 45
          9   6                        Approved                 45
              7                        Approved                 45
         10   8                        Approved                 50
              9                        Deferred                 50
         11   10                       Approved                 51
              11                       Withdrawn                51
         12   12                       Approved                122


         14   CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER                           123













          1                     P R O C E E D I N G S

          2           (The agenda items commenced at 9:40 a.m.)

          3              THE GOVERNOR:  We need to approve appointments 

          4        to the Parole Commission.  We have developed what we 

          5        hope will be a fool-proof procedure here.  It will 

          6        work like this.

          7              On the first ballot, the Governor and each 

          8        Cabinet member will cast three votes, casting one 

          9        vote for each candidate.  The three candidates with 

         10        the highest vote totals would be the new 

         11        commissioner.  

         12              In the event there is a tie for third, then 

         13        there will be a run-off vote for that spot.  

         14              After the three members are selected, there 

         15        will then be a vote for the six-year term; and again, 

         16        the three members would be -- we vote for one of the 

         17        three on that.  If there is a tie, then there would 

         18        be a one-vote run off.              

         19              Next will be a vote for the four-year term; and 

         20        when that is decided, then the two-year term will go 

         21        to the remaining person, the third person.  

         22              After the three commissioners are selected, it 

         23        will be necessary to approve the new commissioners by 

         24        a motion and a majority vote.  And then there will be 

         25        a vote for the chair and the co-chair, and this could 


          1        be done by the nomination process.  

          2              The statute requires that one of the 

          3        commissioners be a minority, and write-in candidates 

          4        are allowed.  

          5              So I think everybody has a ballot that has the 

          6        names of all of the sitting commissioners plus a 

          7        space for a write-in candidate.  So we'll proceed now 

          8        to vote.  

          9              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Do we sign the ballot?

         10              THE GOVERNOR:  I ask you to sign the ballot.  

         11              (Short pause.)

         12              THE GOVERNOR:  Okay.  Mr. Fuchs, you want to 

         13        tally these votes?  Anybody that wants to look over 

         14        your shoulder, that's fine.

         15              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  While they are tallying, 

         16        let me say at the risk of sounding like I am paying 

         17        lip service, I think everyone on this dias would 

         18        agree this is not an easy chore.  These are six very 

         19        fine individuals, very fine professionals.  We are 

         20        doing this via change in the legislation, and trying 

         21        to cull from six good people to three good people is 

         22        not an easy thing for any of us to do.  And I want 

         23        all six people to know how much I've appreciated 

         24        working with each and everyone of them.  I know my 

         25        staff feels the same way, as do I am sure all of 


          1        yours. 

          2              THE GOVERNOR:  Well said.  I think that you are 

          3        right.  Having to select three from six that are very 

          4        competent and very professional and have done an 

          5        excellent job is a difficult task for all of us to 

          6        do.

          7              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  This is fortunate, if one 

          8        of them decides to run for the legislature, it would 

          9        have been three out of seven. 

         10              THE GOVERNOR:  If this is going to take any 

         11        time, we'll go forward.  

         12              THE GOVERNOR'S AIDE: Why don't you go ahead and 

         13        do the resolutions?  

         14              (Resolutions off record.)   

         15              THE GOVERNOR:   All right.  Maurice Crockett 

         16        got five votes and Edward Spooner got five votes.  

         17        Patricia Grogan got four votes and Judith Wilson got 

         18        four votes.  

         19              So there will be a run off between Patricia 

         20        Grogan and Judith Wilson.  

         21              (Short pause.)

         22              THE GOVERNOR:  It's four to three, Judith 

         23        Wilson is selected. 

         24              Let's see.  Now we need a ballot.  You have 

         25        ballots?


          1              While we are doing that, why don't we do the 

          2        resolution on the Girls State.

          3              (Resolution off record.)

          4              THE GOVERNOR:   Do we have a ballot?  

          5              Edward Spooner is selected for the six-year 

          6        term.  And we have a ballot for the four-year term.

          7              Judith Wilson is selected for the four-year 

          8        term.  Now, the floor is open for nominations for the 

          9        chair and vice-chair.

         10              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I nominate Ed Spooner as 

         11        the chair.

         12              SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded.  

         14        Are there further nominations?  

         15              If there are no further nominations, as many as 

         16        favor selection of Ed Spooner as chair, signify by 

         17        saying aye.  

         18              THE CABINET:  Aye.

         19              THE GOVERNOR:  Opposed, no.  

         20              And that is done.  

         21              I think also we should have a motion to select 

         22        the new commissioners and a vote on that so that we 

         23        make sure we have a clear majority.  

         24             This is not the vice-chair.  This is a motion 

         25        for the selection of Commissioners Ed Spooner, Judith 


          1        Wilson, and Maurice Crockett.  

          2              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I move.

          3              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded.  

          5        All those in favor, signify by saying aye.  

          6              THE CABINET:  Aye.

          7              THE GOVERNOR:  Opposed, no.  

          8              That motion is carried unanimously.  

          9              Now nominations, is there a nominations for the 

         10        vice-chair?

         11              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, I move the 

         12        selection of Ms. Wilson for vice-chair.  

         13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded 

         15        that Ms. Wilson be vice-chairman.  Are there further 

         16        nominations?  

         17              As many as favor the motion, the nomination, 

         18        signify by saying aye.  

         19              THE CABINET:  Aye.

         20              THE GOVERNOR:  Opposed, no.  That motion 

         21        carries.  So Mr. Spooner is chair, Ms. Wilson is 

         22        vice-chair, and we have fulfilled the obligation. 

         23              (Announcements off the record.)  




          1              THE GOVERNOR:  State Board of Administration. 

          2              MRS. JARRIEL: The first  item of business is to 

          3        approve the meetings of the May 14 meeting.  

          4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.

          5              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Seconded.

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded on 

          7        amendments.  Without objection, the amendments are 

          8        approved as read.  

          9              MRS. JARRIEL:  The next item, it's an approval 

         10        of fiscal sufficiency on Florida Housing Finance 

         11        Agency Multifamily Housing Revenue Bonds and 

         12        Overplaced Project.  

         13              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.

         14              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         15              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         16        objection it's approved. 

         17              MS. JARRIEL:  Next item are recommendations to 

         18        approve fiscal sufficiency of Florida Housing Finance 

         19        Agency Revenue Bonds Caribbean Key Project.

         20              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.  

         21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Seconded.

         22              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

         23        objection, it's approved.

         24              MS. JARRIEL:  Fourth item, recommendation to 

         25        approve fiscal sufficiency Florida Housing Finance 


          1        Agency Revenue Bonds, Sterling Palms Apartments 

          2        Project.   

          3              COMMISSIONER NELSON: Move it.

          4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

          5              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

          6        objection, it's approved.

          7              MS. JARRIEL:  Recommendation of approval of 

          8        fiscal sufficiency, Florida Housing Finance Agency 

          9        Multi-Family Revenue bonds, Spinnaker Cove 

         10        Apartments.

         11              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.

         12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.

         13              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

         14        objection, it's approved.

         15              MS. JARRIEL:  Next, recommendation for approval 

         16        for fiscal sufficiency for Florida Housing Finance 

         17        Agency Revenue Bonds, Praxis of Deerfield Beach, 

         18        Phase III Project.

         19              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.

         20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Seconded.

         21              THE GOVERNOR:  Seconded.  Without objection, 

         22        it's approved.

         23              MS. JARRIEL:  Next item, an interest rate 

         24        exception for Julington Creek, Plantation Community 

         25        Development District, not to exceed $11,225,000; a 


          1        request not to exceed 9 percent per annum. 

          2              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Motion.

          3              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  And seconded.  

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          5        objection, approved. 

          6               MS. JARRIEL:  The next item has two 

          7        subcomponents relating to the Florida Hurricane 

          8        Catastrophe Fund.  The first is a request that the 

          9        Trustees approve the premium formula for the 1996-97 

         10        contract year.

         11              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.

         12              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  And seconded.

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded on parts 1 

         14        and 2 of the proposal.  Without, objection it is 

         15        approved.

         16              MS. JARRIEL:  And that second portion was to 

         17        reappoint Jack Nicholson as the chair of the Florida 

         18        Hurricane Loss Projection Methodology Commission. 

         19              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and --

         20              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  And seconded.

         21              THE GOVERNOR:  -- and seconded.  Without 

         22        objection, it's approved.

         23              MS. JARRIEL: The next item on the agenda is 

         24        the SBA budget for fiscal year 1996-97.  And I would 

         25        like to take this opportunity to provide some 


          1        clarification, since I understand there have been 

          2        some questions on the part of the Trustees.  

          3              As you know, our primary mandate is investment 

          4        services for the state of Florida.  We have 

          5        continually been a cost-effective manager for both 

          6        pension fund beneficiaries as well as for local 

          7        governments, the counties and municipalities in 

          8        Florida through the local government investment 

          9        pool.  

         10              Our performance has been stellar.  We earned 27 

         11        and a half percent last year for the pension fund, 

         12        and the local government fund has consistently 

         13        performed its counterparts in the private sector.  

         14              Our concern has been that we continue to retain 

         15        quality staff.  The option for us would be to utilize 

         16        additional external manager services.  

         17              On a cost comparison basis, we manage funds at 

         18        two bases points on assets under management, whereas 

         19        at a minimum, external fees for managers typically 

         20        run 20 plus basis points.  

         21              I would like to also clarify that the amount 

         22        that we have in the budget this year is not a 7 

         23        percent across the board.  Rather, it's targeted 

         24        specifically at entry and mid level investment 

         25        management staff.  This was done after an extensive 


          1        review of salary rates in the private industry and 

          2        the targeted market from which we are required to 

          3        hire, which is basically specified geographic areas 

          4        in the southeast.  

          5              We did want to clarify that the 7 percent is 

          6        not across the board; and in the past when the 

          7        Trustees have given us merit money, we feel that you 

          8        have been comfortable with the manner in which it was 

          9        used to reward excess performance and to retain 

         10        quality staff.  So the budget has been submitted for 

         11        approval. 

         12              THE GOVERNOR:  Discussion?  Motion?

         13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I will make a motion. 

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  It's moved.  Is there a second?

         15              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Let me ask, how would -- 

         16        explain to me the 7 percent increase. 

         17              MS. JARRIEL:  Basically, Commissioner, what we 

         18        did is go through position-by-position and determine 

         19        what salary increases would be required to retain and 

         20        recruit quality staff.  The 7 percent was simply the 

         21        mechanism to attain that.  

         22              We took the total dollars that were required, 

         23        the 7 percent on the gross salary base results in the 

         24        absolute number of dollars required to target those 

         25        particular positions.  We'd be happy to provide more 


          1        detail if you would like.

          2              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  How does that interface 

          3        with the typical 3 percent increase for normal 

          4        employees? 

          5              MS. JARRIEL:  We would provide a 3 percent 

          6        across the board to our employees as well.  The 

          7        excess amount is the amount that's required to 

          8        provide the correct beginning and mid level salaries 

          9        for our professional investment staff to retain them.

         10              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  So everybody gets 3 

         11        percent, and then that additional 4 percent that 

         12        would be applied to everybody is used at the 

         13        discretion of the management in rewarding various 

         14        employees?

         15              MS. JARRIEL:  That is correct, for performance 

         16        and to adjust the salaries as needed to prevent the 

         17        loss of professionals to private industry which has 

         18        occurred over the last few years.

         19              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  I am not prepared at this 

         20        point to second it, Governor. 

         21              THE GOVERNOR:  Maybe we need to study it some 

         22        more.  I just would point out we are dealing with an 

         23        agency we just complemented the fellow that's leaving 

         24        because he's about doubled the investment portfolio.  

         25        Highly specialized people, competing, and we are 


          1        losing Ash Williams because he is going to make 

          2        probably three or four times as much money as he was 

          3        making before.  We may have to pay more money to get 

          4        somebody to take his place.  

          5              So I just think you -- I understand that we've 

          6        got a situation which we are trying to run, and we 

          7        don't want other state employees to feel like they 

          8        are being treated unfairly.  But the whole idea of 

          9        some merit raises -- maybe what we need to do is see 

         10        more about how the merit raises are selected.  

         11              It makes sense to me, if you look at our 

         12        universities and you see how we pay, you look at our 

         13        medical schools and you see how we pay, there are 

         14        many areas in which we pay on the basis of the need 

         15        and competence and merit.  And if there is an agency 

         16        that is making a fair return on our money, I would 

         17        say it's this agency.

         18              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  I agree with all of that.

         19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I, too, Governor, share 

         20        the concerns of perception and really thought about 

         21        this a long time before agreeing to go along with 

         22        it.  And really what it turned on was the fact that 

         23        the incentives are really going to entry level and 

         24        mid management.  Those are the areas that they have 

         25        difficulty retaining.  And unfortunately, we lose a 


          1        lot of good people unless we are willing to pay the 

          2        price to continue the excellent performance of the 

          3        trust fund. 

          4              MS. JARRIEL:  Our goal was actually to continue 

          5        to build the next senior management staff.  And the 

          6        only way we'll be able to do that is to continue to 

          7        retain the entry level and mid level talented young 

          8        professionals that are coming in today.  And with the 

          9        7 percent included, we're still on a total budgetary 

         10        basis managing the assets which are 50 too big for 

         11        pension and another 15 or so for local governments 

         12        and other activities at that two basis point on 

         13        assets charge, which is tremendously lower than the 

         14        cost to the state through private industry which 

         15        would be the only other alternative could we not 

         16        retain those professionals. 

         17              THE GOVERNOR:  I assume that we'll defer this 

         18        item then. 

         19              MS. JARRIEL:  The next item actually has two 

         20        components as well.  The current acting executive 

         21        director for the SBA is operating under a delegation 

         22        of authority from the previous director which expires 

         23        today.  We request appointment of the acting 

         24        executive director until such time as a permanent 

         25        director can be selected.


          1              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Move it.

          2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I second that 

          3        portion of it. 

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded for the 

          5        appointment of Barbara Jarriel as the acting 

          6        executive director.  

          7              Without objection, that's approved. 

          8              MS. JARRIEL:  The other item is the initiation 

          9        of the search and selection process for a permanent 

         10        executive director, and it's my understanding that 

         11        the Trustees would like to agenda that item for the 

         12        July 9th meeting. 

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  Without objection, deferred to 

         14        the July 9th meeting.

         15              MS. JARRIEL:  The last item we have attached 

         16        for your review, the reports of the acting executive 

         17        director which include investment performance and 

         18        bank designations.

         19              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  I move it.

         20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I second it.

         21              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and second.  Without 

         22        objection, the report is accepted.  





          1              THE GOVERNOR: Bond Finance.

          2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Excuse me.  A question 

          3        was just raised as to deferring that one item to the 

          4        9th of July?  No, next meeting.  And whether or not 

          5        we will have authority to even act upon it based on 

          6        attendance of the Trustees?

          7              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Well, I will be there the 

          8        9th. 

          9              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  When is the next 

         10        meeting?

         11              THE GOVERNOR:  June 25. 

         12              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  So if we delay it until 

         13        June 9, which means we'll not be able to start the 

         14        new year with pay raises, although we can retroactive 

         15        --

         16              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  As far as I am concerned, 

         17        we can do it at the next meeting.  The next meeting 

         18        is fine with me.

         19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It's a nonproblem.  I am 

         20        sorry I brought it up.

         21              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Well, is it going to be 

         22        June 25 or July 9? 

         23              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Going to have to be 

         24        July 9.

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  So it's July 9.  All right.  


          1        Another thing has been pointed out to me.  We voted 

          2        just to continue that item.  We need a vote to 

          3        continue their budget, which would terminate on July 

          4        1.  So I think we should have --

          5              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  I move it. 

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  So this will be sort of like a 

          7        continuing resolution.

          8              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Yes.

          9              THE GOVERNOR:  -- to continue the budget until 

         10        we meet on the other.

         11              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  I second that.

         12              THE GOVERNOR:  That's moved and seconded.  

         13        Without objection, it's adopted. 

         14              (The State Board of Administration was 

         15        concluded.)












          1              THE GOVERNOR:  Division of Bond Finance. 

          2              MR. WATKINS:  Item number 1 is approval of the 

          3        minutes of the May 29th meeting.

          4              THE GOVERNOR: Moved.

          5              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Seconded.

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  -- and seconded.  Without 

          7        objection, approved.

          8              MR. WATKINS:   Item number 2 is a report of the 

          9        award of a 11.2 million dollar bond issue for the 

         10        Board of Regents for construction of a student 

         11        apartment facility at Florida A&M University.  

         12              The bonds were sold at competitive sale on May 

         13        30 and awarded to the low bidder at a true interest 

         14        rate of approximately 5.77 percent. 

         15              THE GOVERNOR:  Good interest rate. 

         16              MR. WATKINS:  Thank you.  Item 3 and 4, I am 

         17        going to turn over --

         18              THE GOVERNOR:  Let's get item 2 approved 

         19        first.  

         20              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Moved.

         21              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Seconded.

         22              THE GOVERNOR:  Move and seconded.  Without 

         23        objection, it's approved.

         24              MR. WATKINS:Items 3 and 4 I am going to turn 

         25        over to Susan Leigh, executive director of Florida 


          1        Housing Finance Agency.

          2              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  So moved. 

          3              MS. LEIGH:  I appreciate the opportunity to 

          4        present my things in person today.  

          5              The first item on the agenda is adoption of 

          6        resolution authorizing negotiated sales of following 

          7        Housing Revenue Bonds on behalf and at the request of 

          8        the Florida Housing Finance Agency.  

          9              Item A is Praxis Deerfield Beach and item B is 

         10        Spinnaker Cove.  

         11              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I believe it's moved. 

         12        Secretary, did you --

         13              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Yes.

         14              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will second it. 

         15              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded.  

         16        Without objection, it's approved. 

         17              MS. LEIGH:  Item number 4, I have spoken with 

         18        all of you, I think, except for Commissioner 

         19        Crawford, individually about this issue.  It is 

         20        something -- and I have had several questions as to 

         21        why we are presenting this to the Cabinet this 

         22        morning.  

         23              And the board, my board has asked me to 

         24        represent to you that we heard your concerns a year 

         25        ago or in the last couple of years, that you would 


          1        like us to look at how we do business and perhaps 

          2        address it in different ways or to get people 

          3        comfortable with the way we do business or to change 

          4        the way we do business to do away with any perception 

          5        of anything going on other than the best thing for 

          6        the State of Florida.  

          7              What we have done over the past year is work on 

          8        the specific issue of competitive versus negotiated 

          9        bonds.  And I think part of the concern comes from 

         10        the fact that everyone else that comes before you 

         11        does competitive transactions, and the Housing Agency 

         12        continually comes before you to do negotiated 

         13        transactions.  

         14              Unfortunately, that has been a nature of the 

         15        type of transactions that we do, being housing versus 

         16        other lesser complex transactions.  All be that the 

         17        case and what you will find in the report that your 

         18        staff has and that we have presented to you is a 

         19        compilation of information, not only from 

         20        professionals within the industry, but people that 

         21        don't make money off of this agency in the industry, 

         22        which I think is very important; with the Government 

         23        Finance Association and the Municipal Finance 

         24        Journal, you will find several articles that kind of 

         25        explain when do you do competitive and when do you do 


          1        negotiated.  

          2              I am happy to report that the board has 

          3        authorized staff to move forward on a competitive 

          4        transaction for the fall in September.  We will be 

          5        doing a single family transaction which we think is 

          6        the easiest and the one that makes the most sense and 

          7        will be efficient for the state.  

          8              We have chosen or we are in the process of 

          9        choosing a structuring agent to help us with that.  

         10        We are working with the Division of Bond Finance to 

         11        try to figure out if there is a better way for us to 

         12        go through this process that will address everyone's 

         13        concern with it.  

         14              We are willing and able to, if anybody has any 

         15        suggestions or ways to make the process better, we 

         16        want to incorporate that into this process.  Those 

         17        decisions will be made over the next month.  

         18              There is still time to incorporate anything 

         19        that anybody needs in there that would make them feel 

         20        it was more successful, because we intend, the board 

         21        intends and staff intends to make this a successful 

         22        transaction.  

         23              And then from there, we will look at in the 

         24        future how we evaluate, so that we have a true 

         25        evaluation of whether we should be doing negotiated 


          1        or competitive.  

          2              I will say that all housing transactions in the 

          3        state, even though they do not come before the 

          4        Cabinet, are done as negotiated transactions.  It 

          5        just so happens you get to hear about ours.  

          6              We also have information about what other 

          7        states do, if people want to look at that in greater 

          8        detail.  Our bottom line is that we are supposed to 

          9        provide affordable housing for the citizens of the 

         10        state, and we have to do that in the most efficient 

         11        and effective method because we have no general 

         12        revenue.  We do not have the full faith and credit of 

         13        the state of Florida behind our bonds.  And we have 

         14        to structure each transaction so that it actually 

         15        cash flows on a deal by deal basis.  

         16              And the other thing I think that it's important 

         17        to understand is that the agency five years ago 

         18        implemented an ethics rule prior to the division, 

         19        prior to SEC regulations, that said if you do 

         20        business with the agency, you cannot make 

         21        contributions to the Governor or Cabinet, the 

         22        individuals that would look at our transactions; and 

         23        also, that there is a -- the Division of Bond Finance 

         24        sets the fees for these transactions, and the board 

         25        picks who participates in them.  


          1              So there is a separation that the agency does 

          2        not have the ability to set fees for those 

          3        individuals that work for us in terms of the bond 

          4        business.  

          5              Are there any questions?  

          6              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Just a couple of quick 

          7        questions.  Susan, you mentioned using a single 

          8        family versus multifamily for purposes of this first 

          9        go around.  And let me also say that I applaud you 

         10        for hearing our concerns and wanting to take a 

         11        different look at this, and I appreciate it and I am 

         12        sure all the members do.  

         13              What specifically makes the first go around 

         14        more important to move for single family versus 

         15        multifamily? 

         16              MS. LEIGH:  In these transactions, the 

         17        developer on the multifamily side is the ultimate 

         18        user of those bonds.  And they -- what happens in 

         19        that process and how we structure that deal, most the 

         20        housing bonds are what you call story bonds.  You 

         21        have to go out and say this is what this is about.  

         22        We don't have full faith and credit, but look, we got 

         23        this kind of coverage on the transaction.  

         24              One of the transactions that you approving 

         25        today has 1.35 deck coverage.  We have to make each 


          1        transaction very specific, and that has to be sold 

          2        and talked about in the market to get your best rate.  

          3        The developer pays the fees.  

          4              In a single family transaction -- so there is a 

          5        failure in that process, there is an individual that 

          6        is hurt in that process.  

          7              In a single family, the state is issuing the 

          8        bonds, and we are setting the fee structure based on 

          9        what it's going to cost us to do the transaction.  We 

         10        have done several single families recently that we 

         11        think that this one will be fairly similar to -- the 

         12        market is familiar with this transaction, so 

         13        therefore, it's not as important to discuss it in the 

         14        market.  And it should sell because they should be 

         15        able to look back and see the last two we did were 

         16        Triple A or Double A.  And it should sell fairly 

         17        quickly.

         18              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Would it be your intent 

         19        then to try for a multifamily in the future, 

         20        understanding what you said, but also understanding 

         21        it's half a loaf?

         22              MS. LEIGH:  Right.  One of the things we are 

         23        looking at is we were looking at structure agents for 

         24        the agency, was what other types of experience that 

         25        they had, and there are several firms that have some 


          1        very specific experience in multifamily.  And so 

          2        there are things we considered doing this summer that 

          3        I think we are going to try to work with them on to 

          4        see if we can do that.  

          5              So our intent is not to just say we are going 

          6        to do the single family, we are not going to think 

          7        about it again.  Our intent is to create a situation 

          8        in which we can take an honest look, have somebody 

          9        that has that type of experience working with us to 

         10        help us get there.  

         11              So then you're evaluating each particular 

         12        transaction, whether it's multi-or single, but we 

         13        started with the single.  

         14              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  You mentioned making the 

         15        process better.  I don't know if this will or not, 

         16        but I sense what we are going through here -- and I 

         17        think if you want to call it pilots, we can to see 

         18        how it works.  You have finance managers that you 

         19        work with as a member of your team when you do these 

         20        things?

         21              MS. LEIGH:  What we have had in the past, by 

         22        statute, the agency is not permitted to hire a 

         23        financial advisor, or they can but they cannot do 

         24        business with the agency again in terms of purchasing 

         25        bonds for two years.


          1              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Would it be appropriate 

          2        -- and I am throwing this out for the members as much 

          3        as you.  Is it a potential that we could use one of 

          4        the contracted financial managers through the 

          5        division to sort of sit as a member of this team as 

          6        we go through these pilots?

          7              MS. LEIGH:  Absolutely.

          8              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  To sort of be able to 

          9        monitor for the Cabinet?

         10              MS. LEIGH:  Absolutely.  We welcome -- the 

         11        division is notified when we first start a 

         12        transaction.  They can participate at any point 

         13        forward from there to the extent they can sit in on 

         14        every conference call and everything that's involved 

         15        in it to the very end.  They do the pricing, they do 

         16        the fees.  They are more than welcome.  We'd welcome 

         17        their participation in reviewing this.  The more 

         18        eyes, the better.

         19              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  That's certainly not an 

         20        integrity issue, it's just one of liaison as we work 

         21        through this because it is new.

         22              MS. LEIGH:  We welcome it.

         23              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I don't know what kind of 

         24        an act that would take, if it's appropriate.

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  I think she said we are looking 


          1        at the procedure, we hope that could be incorporated 

          2        into the procedure that you are talking about.  

          3              Susan, you mentioned that back in '91 I think 

          4        that we made some changes in regard to 

          5        contributions.  That was again to make sure that we 

          6        were protecting ourselves and protecting the state so 

          7        that in the future, there couldn't be any problems.  

          8        So I think we continue to look for things that were 

          9        preventive problems, but also would give great 

         10        credibility to what you are doing and what we are 

         11        doing and what the public sees we are doing here.  

         12              And I applaud you for what you are talking 

         13        about now.  I would think that looking at something 

         14        like a little further separation, saying the Division 

         15        of Bond Finance would be selecting some of the fiscal 

         16        advisers or fiscal agents for these housing things as 

         17        opposed to the authority itself would again be one of 

         18        those steps, just like we took in '91 in regard to 

         19        contributions, to just signify that we are concerned 

         20        and are going to continue to do everything that we 

         21        can to protect the integrity of the process. 

         22              MS. LEIGH:  I think the agency has been a 

         23        leader in that and would go -- will always be the 

         24        first one ahead to try to do that.  Because we 

         25        understand the perception problems that occur.  And 


          1        with the kind of money that we deal with on a 

          2        day-to-day basis, it's a constant concern of ours, 

          3        too. 

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  The other thing I would say, I 

          5        am delighted that you are moving towards a sale on 

          6        the bid sale.  Every argument that we are hearing 

          7        now, that we have continued to hear, we heard on the 

          8        basis of all our sales back in the time we did it.  

          9        And all sales virtually by most people, other states 

         10        even, were done, the kind of sales that we were doing 

         11        were done on a negotiated basis.  That had been the 

         12        history of Florida forever.  And there were a lot of 

         13        doom sayers as to what would happen.  

         14              Now, it's sort of infrequent, but sometimes we 

         15        have a negotiated sale, and we think that is the best 

         16        thing; but almost all of our sales are on the basis 

         17        of the public offering.  And over the period of time, 

         18        we have done very well in our interest rates.  I 

         19        think we are ahead of most other people doing that. 

         20              MS. LEIGH:  One of the individuals we chose 

         21        did the first deal in Alabama for the Housing Agency 

         22        there, their first competitive.  So we are hopeful.  

         23        The board is very enthusiastic and has made it very 

         24        clear that that's where we are going.

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  Again, I don't have the 


          1        expertise to know whether single family is the best 

          2        thing you should do or multiple family, but I hope 

          3        you would get the best advice you can get as to what 

          4        is the best way to have a good experience on that. 

          5              MS. LEIGH:  I would also like to report to you 

          6        that one of the things, as I said, we are supposed to 

          7        address need.  We have built 190,000 units, 36,000 

          8        single family and 14,000 multifamily, over the past 

          9        15 years.  

         10              The need right now is by the year 2000, 180,000 

         11        multifamily and on single family, about 400,000.  

         12        With one of our single family transactions, $40 

         13        million is usually about 600 families.  

         14              So we have a long way to go to try to meet some 

         15        of those.  But we are moving down that road to try to 

         16        build a sense of community in the state and work with 

         17        the local governments to do that. 

         18              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you.  Did we have a motion 

         19        on the report?

         20              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I move it and ask that we 

         21        include the issue of the financial manager through 

         22        the Division of Bond Services.

         23              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         24              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded.  

         25        Without objection, it's approved.  Thank you. 


          1              (The Division of Bond Finance concluded.)


























          1                              *

          2              THE GOVERNOR:  State Board of Education. 

          3              MR. PIERSON:  Item one is minutes of meeting 

          4        held August 21.  

          5              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So moved.

          6              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

          7              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          8        object, approved.

          9              MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is statewide programming 

         10        contract for Florida's Public Television Stations.

         11              SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.

         12              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Seconded.

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.

         14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Can I raise a question?  

         15        Tell me a little bit about the contract.  I have a 

         16        little information on it.  Apparently it was a 

         17        directed contract. 

         18              MR. PIERSON:  It was directed in proviso 

         19        language in the appropriations bill. 

         20              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Directed that it had to 

         21        go to a specific agency?

         22              MR. PIERSON:  Yes.

         23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I find it interesting 

         24        that the agency that it went to is an active Florida 

         25        nonprofit corporation run by a particular individual 


          1        or registered agent, particular individual.  And that 

          2        just recently, a nonprofit or for profit corporation 

          3        was formed, and that same individual is the 

          4        registered agent.  Does that cause you any concern? 

          5              MR. PIERSON:  I wasn't aware of it personally, 

          6        sir.  Erick Smith is here who is the agent that's 

          7        administering the contract.  

          8              MR. SMITH:  The nonprofit corporation is made 

          9        up of Florida's Public Radio and Television 

         10        Stations.  There are some ventures that they were 

         11        looking at because of the demise of other funding for 

         12        public broadcasting.  

         13              The advice of counsel was that if they got into 

         14        any of these other ventures, they should form a for 

         15        profit corporation.  The corporation has been 

         16        formed.  It's not active in its operation at this 

         17        time.

         18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, you know, we just 

         19        finished discussion on negotiated versus competitive 

         20        contracting.  And I just find this to be a little bit 

         21        unusual.  

         22              MR. SMITH:  I can answer the reason for the 

         23        contract language.  The legislature selects, has 

         24        selected this organization to produce Today In The 

         25        Legislature.  They used the same facilities in the 


          1        Capitol, the same equipment, and it's just not set 

          2        up so that two separate organizations could use the 

          3        same equipment and work out of the same facilities.  

          4              That's the reason they directed that the same 

          5        contractor be employed for both contracts.

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  Generally the legislature works 

          7        in mysterious ways. It's wonders to perform.

          8              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  I appreciate that, 

          9        Governor, and I thank you for your answer.  And at 

         10        this point, I will just march on and see what 

         11        happens.

         12              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Up the hill?

         13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Up the hill.

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  Without objection. 

         15              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  I do object.

         16              THE GOVERNOR:  All right.  We note with an 

         17        objection, it's approved.  Item 3.

         18              MR. PIERSON:  Item 3 is an amendment to state 

         19        board rule 6A-1.0014 on the Comprehensive Management 

         20        Information System.

         21              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So moved.

         22              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         24        objection, it's approved.

         25              MR. PIERSON:  Item 4 is a State University 


          1        system item on eminent domain which we'd request you 

          2        withdraw from the agenda. 

          3              THE GOVERNOR:  Without objections, withdrawn.

          4              MR. PIERSON:  Item 5 are appointments to the 

          5        Edison Community College District Board of Trustees.

          6              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So moved.

          7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

          8              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          9        objection, they are approved. 

         10              MR. PIERSON:  Item 6 is appointment to the Polk 

         11        Community College District Board Of Trustees.

         12              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         13              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and second.  Without 

         15        objection, it's approved.               

         16              (State Board of Education was concluded.)

         17                              *










          1              THE GOVERNOR:  Administration Commission. 

          2              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 1, recommend approval 

          3        of the minutes of the meeting held May 14, 1996.

          4              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  So moved.

          5              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

          6              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

          7        objection, minutes are approved.

          8              MS. SITTIG:  Recommend the transfer of general 

          9        revenue appropriations under items A and B in the 

         10        Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services.

         11              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move.

         12              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second. 

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         14        objection, A and B are approved.

         15              MS. SITTIG:  Item 3, recommend the transfer of 

         16        general revenue appropriations in the Justice 

         17        Administration Commission.

         18              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So moved.

         19              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         20              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         21        objection, it's approved.

         22              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 4, recommend the 

         23        transfer of general revenue appropriations in the 

         24        Department of Juvenile Justice.

         25              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.


          1              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

          2              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          3        objection, it's approved.

          4              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 5, recommend the 

          5        transfer of general revenue appropriations for the 

          6        Agency For Health Care Administration.

          7              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

          8              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

          9              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         10        objection, it's approved.

         11              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 6, request deferral of 

         12        this item until the June 20 meeting.

         13              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move.

         14              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         15              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded. Motion to 

         16        defer is granted.

         17              MS. SITTIG: Item 7, recommend the transfer of 

         18        general revenue appropriations in the Department of 

         19        Corrections.

         20              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

         21              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         22              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         23        objection, it's approved.

         24              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 8, recommend the 

         25        transfer of general revenue appropriations in the 


          1        Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

          2              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

          3              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          5        objection, it's approved.

          6              MS. SITTIG:  Item number 9, recommend the 

          7        transfer of general revenue appropriations under 

          8        items A and B in the Department of Health and Human 

          9        Services.

         10              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move items A and B.

         11              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         12        objection, A and B are approved. 

         13              MS. SITTIG:  Item 10, recommend the transfer of 

         14        general revenue appropriations under items A and B in 

         15        the Justice Administration Commission.

         16              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move.

         17              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         18              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         19        objection, A and B are approved.

         20              MS. SITTIG:  Item 11, recommend the 

         21        establishment of three positions in excess of the 

         22        number fixed by the legislature in the Agency for 

         23        Health Care Administration.  

         24              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 


          1        objection, it's approved.

          2              MS. SITTIG:  Item 12, recommend the transfer of 

          3        general revenue appropriations in the Department of 

          4        Health and Rehabilitative Services.  

          5              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

          6              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          7              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

          8        objection, it's approved.

          9              MS. SITTIG:  Item 13, recommend the temporary 

         10        transfer of funds in the state treasury to the 

         11        general revenue fund in the Department of Banking and 

         12        Finance. 

         13              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         14              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         15              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         16        objection, it's approved.

         17              MS. SITTIG:  And item 14, recommend the 

         18        temporary transfer of up to $154 million from the 

         19        trust funds in the state treasury to the county 

         20        revenue sharing trust fund and up to 27 million to 

         21        the municipal revenue sharing trust. 

         22              SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.

         23              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         24              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded. Without 

         25        objection, it's approved.


          1              MS. SITTIG:  Thank you.

          2              (Administration Commission was concluded.)

          3                              *
























          1              THE GOVERNOR:  Board of Trustees. 

          2              MR. GREEN: Item 1, minutes of the April 23 

          3        meeting. 

          4              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Move approval.

          5              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          7        objection, it's approved.

          8              MR. GREEN:  Item 2, consideration of adoption 

          9        of a policy on the use of eminent domain policy.

         10              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, I would like to 

         11        move this item, and also congratulate staff.  It just 

         12        appears to us that you've heard all the concerns and 

         13        all the questions that have been raised on this issue 

         14        over the past months, and we appreciate the hard work 

         15        and it looks good.  

         16              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         17              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and second.  Without 

         18        objection, it's approved.

         19              MR. GREEN: Item 3, consideration of a request 

         20        to purchase 575 square feet. 

         21              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

         22              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         24        objection, it's approved.

         25              MR. GREEN:  Consideration of a purchase 


          1        agreement, item 4. 

          2              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.

          3              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

          4              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          5        objection, it's approved.

          6              MR. GREEN:  Item 5, consideration of an option 

          7        agreement.  

          8              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

          9              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         10        objection, it's approved.

         11              MR. GREEN:  Item 6, consideration of an option 

         12        agreement.

         13              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.

         14              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.

         15              THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded.  Without 

         16        objection, it's approved.

         17              MR. GREEN:  Substitute item 7, consideration 

         18        request to terminate an option agreement.

         19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Move.

         20              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.

         21              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded. Without 

         22        objection, it's approved.  

         23              MR. GREEN:  Item 8, consideration of 

         24        authorization to acquire. 

         25              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.


          1              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.  

          2              MR. GREEN:  George Wilson would like to speak 

          3        to the board for a second.  

          4              MR. WILSON:  Governor, Members of the Cabinet, 

          5        thank for you for the opportunity to speak today.  

          6        Because of Preservation 2000, nearly every month you 

          7        have the opportunity to vote on a conservation 

          8        project that's really of national significance, and 

          9        it's getting almost routine.  

         10              On this one I have been asked to speak.  A lot 

         11        of people have put a number of years of work in on 

         12        this and wanted me to make a few comments about the 

         13        good work of your department and of the South Florida 

         14        District.  

         15              Your vote on this project gives final approval 

         16        to the purchase of the largest single ownership on 

         17        the Kissimmee River.  It begins the transfer to 

         18        public ownership of one of Florida's best privately 

         19        managed natural areas.  

         20              These lands are the product of 60 years of 

         21        excellent private land stewardship and wildlife 

         22        conservation and will pass to the joint custody of 

         23        the South Florida Water Management District and the 

         24        Trustees for restoration and preservation.  

         25              It's a significant challenge to both the 


          1        District and the State Park System.  

          2              On behalf of the Nature Conservancy, John 

          3        Flicker with the National Audubon, we would like to 

          4        recognize the extraordinary work of the South Florida 

          5        Water Management District staff and DEP, Division of 

          6        Recreation and Parks, in their work with landowners, 

          7        elected officials, the business community and the 

          8        citizens of Okeechobee County in the creation of this 

          9        river restoration and park opportunity.  

         10              Some 13 years ago I represented DER in the 

         11        final hearings for the restoration on Kissimmee 

         12        River.  Because of the way the landowners were 

         13        whipsawed back between public priorities that the 

         14        ditch was good for you, the ditch is bad for you, it 

         15        was hard for a lot of landowners to really believe 

         16        government and what was good or bad for the 

         17        restoration of the Kissimmee.  

         18              I wouldn't have given you a plug nickel of that 

         19        time for the opportunity to be able to work with the 

         20        Latt Maxcy Corporation like this on a park of 

         21        national significance.  But unique opportunities do 

         22        come along, and the district and the DEP were able to 

         23        coordinate the programs and were able to work with 

         24        the owners of the 128,000 acre ranch and cherrypick 

         25        48,000 acres and all the riverfront out of that ranch 


          1        to cut the ranch off from the river from some of the 

          2        traditional uses and basically preserve one of the 

          3        largest areas of rare Florida prairie and four unique 

          4        tributary streams to the Kissimmee River.  

          5              It's a very significant natural area.  Because 

          6        of the program coordination, we are able to bring you 

          7        this transaction without costly condemnation suits 

          8        and a below-market sale at a bargain sale.  

          9              Governor, the people you appoint at the South 

         10        Florida Water Management District and the people that 

         11        all of you supervise in the DEP have done an 

         12        excellent job in coordinating their programs.  We 

         13        have a landowner who is satisfied.  We have a 

         14        tremendous amount of people in Okeechobee County that 

         15        are going to be happy to have a park.  

         16              There were two CARL projects you approved in 

         17        February that had a timeliness that had to be done in 

         18        a certain quick time period.  One of them was Camp 

         19        Helen, Lake Powell.  The Division of State Lands 

         20        closed that last Friday, and very successful and on 

         21        time.  And this project should close on time also 

         22        with the help of the district.  

         23              We also -- the project participants would 

         24        especially like to recognize the project mentoring we 

         25        received from the long-time Okeechobee County 


          1        resident, landowner, cattleman and South Florida 

          2        Governing Board member, Sonny Williamson, who has 

          3        been especially helpful in this and also Nat Reed.  

          4              I would like to close by sharing the closing 

          5        remarks of the Okeechobee County chair, Cliff Betts, 

          6        who chaired a special joint county commissioner this 

          7        spring, meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, the 

          8        Economic Development Council of Okeechobee County, to 

          9        look at the tax ramifications of taking such a large 

         10        piece of land off of the tax roll in Okeechobee 

         11        County, and to also look at the river access 

         12        opportunities for the people of the county, for 

         13        tourists, and to look at the economic opportunities 

         14        of echo tourism by making a park here.  

         15              Chairman Betts' final remarks in supporting the 

         16        park concept was that this park may be the best thing 

         17        that ever happened to Okeechobee County.  A very, 

         18        very positive meeting, and that positive work was 

         19        because of the really good work of the park staff and 

         20        the South Florida staff and in working with the 

         21        locals to find out what they wanted here.  

         22              On behalf of the Nature Conservancy and a broad 

         23        spectrum of environmental groups, we thank you today 

         24        for your vote to protect both the Kissimmee River and 

         25        to restore it.  We thank you very much for the 


          1        opportunity to speak.

          2              THE GOVERNOR:  We thank you very much for your 

          3        appearance and for your kind words.  We hear a lot of 

          4        things about why echo management doesn't work and all 

          5        of the failures that we are making.  It's very, very 

          6        nice to hear something, and it is obvious that an 

          7        awful lot of people worked very hard for this.  This 

          8        is going to be very meaningful for the state of 

          9        Florida.         

         10              Again, looking at what happened to the 

         11        Kissimmee over the years, and how it looked like we'd 

         12        never untangle it.  And even when we started, it was 

         13        said that we would never be able to do anything to 

         14        get the river back and put it back or have it be 

         15        anything like it was before.  It's nice to see this 

         16        project, but very nice to have your supportive words.

         17              MR. WILSON:  Thank you for the opportunity. 

         18              THE GOVERNOR:  It's been moved and seconded.  

         19        Without objection, it's approved.  

         20              MR. GREEN:  Item 9, recommend deferral until 

         21        the July 9 meeting.

         22              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move to defer.

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         24        objection, it's approved.

         25              MR. GREEN:  Item 10, consideration of an 


          1        application to modify a five-year sovereignty 

          2        submerged land lease.

          3              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.

          4              COMMISSIONER MILLIGAN:  Second.

          5              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          6        objection, it's approved.

          7              MR. GREEN:  Substitute item 11, request 

          8        withdrawal.        

          9              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move it.

         10              THE GOVERNOR:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         11        objection, it's approved.

         12              MR. GREEN:  Item 12 is consideration of a 

         13        five-year sovereignty submerge land use in Palm Beach 

         14        County, the Juno pier item.  

         15              Governor, we have a number of speakers on each 

         16        side today.  This item has been before you three 

         17        other occasions.  I would recommend that we give 20 

         18        minutes per side to make presentation.

         19              THE GOVERNOR:  Very well. 

         20              MR. GREEN:  The county will start or the 

         21        applicant will start, and they have asked their -- 

         22        some of their time be reserved for rebuttal at the 

         23        end of the meeting.  And then the opposition will 

         24        make their presentation.  

         25              Commissioner Warren Newell. 


          1              MR. NEWELL: Good morning.  You know, it's a 

          2        pleasure to be here today.  And you know it's an 

          3        important issue when I get on a small airplane in the 

          4        middle of the summer, with those big thunder boomers 

          5        out there behind my house.  

          6              Sometimes we talk about the pier as being a 

          7        local issue, maybe a regional issue in the north part 

          8        of the county.  But I can tell you that it's a 

          9        countywide issue.  

         10              Our commission is supportive.  Ken Foster, 

         11        chairman of the commission, is also supportive.  In 

         12        fact, Commissioner Erinson had written you a letter I 

         13        think just recently supporting it.  

         14              When I took office, I had all these questions 

         15        about visions and things about the county.  And my 

         16        families lived in Palm Beach County for over 80 

         17        years.  And my vision has always been creating a 

         18        better place for my family to grow up and giving more 

         19        opportunities for my family to recreate.  

         20              I still remember 25 years ago when I sat on 

         21        Juno pier and fished in the summer.  My mom and dad 

         22        would bring me, drop me off with my neighbors, and 

         23        Juno pier was a small pier, a very safe pier.  I 

         24        spent every summer on that pier.  And not -- my 

         25        parents didn't worry about where I was or was I in 


          1        trouble.  

          2              And it was sort of neat, too, because I always 

          3        remembered those days, and I still remember them very 

          4        vividly today.  And I remember those three snook that 

          5        sat in the bottom of the pier I used to throw rocks 

          6        at to try to get them to move.  And if you are a 

          7        snook fisherman, you know what I am talking about.  

          8              You know, I guess it was last Tuesday I spoke 

          9        to the executive of the Wackenhut Corporation.  And 

         10        if you didn't know, the national headquarters of 

         11        Wackenhut is now in Palm Beach County.  And he stated 

         12        to me the number one reason that Wackenhut moved to 

         13        Palm Beach County was because how the community 

         14        presented itself with recreational activities, 

         15        especially using the water.  

         16              And he also stated the pier was very important 

         17        to him because his company was moving many, many 

         18        families to the north part of the county.  You know, 

         19        this is a very important issue to many, many people 

         20        in the community.  And I know and I appreciate the 

         21        time you all have taken, all the lobbyists involved 

         22        from both sides, and as an elected official sometimes 

         23        you have to get past all that lobbying and think 

         24        about what's correct and best for the community and 

         25        all the residents of Palm Beach County.  


          1              And I can tell you there are thousands waiting 

          2        to hear what your decision is.  And I hope you give 

          3        Commissioner Roberts and Commissioner Marcus a few 

          4        minutes at the completion of both presentations to 

          5        sum up.  

          6              And again, thank you very much for this 

          7        opportunity.

          8              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you, Commissioner. 

          9              MR. TWIGHTFORD: Good morning, Governor and 

         10        Cabinet members, my name is Tom Twightford. I am the 

         11        executive director of the West Palm Beach Fishing 

         12        Club.  We have currently over 1300 members I am 

         13        representing here today.  And I have also been asked 

         14        to represent the members of the Jupiter Inlet 

         15        Off-Shore Fishing Club and the Mako Owners Club, two 

         16        other clubs in Palm Beach County, that all support 

         17        the proposed pier.  

         18              I want to make it clear for starters that as 

         19        fishermen, we understand, accept and are aware of the 

         20        restrictions that this pier is to operate under.  I 

         21        think as a whole, recreational anglers are custodians 

         22        of the resource.  We care about turtles just as much 

         23        as anybody.  We understand the restrictions.  We 

         24        support them.  

         25              But somewhere buried underneath this turtle 


          1        issue the people issue has been overlooked.  This 

          2        pier is for the people, people who can't afford to 

          3        own a boat, people who don't have the money to hire a 

          4        guide, people who fish for fun, people who fish for 

          5        food, people in the audience here that are holding 

          6        these signs.  Look at them.  These are people that 

          7        represent the cross section of our community, young 

          8        and old, people from all walks of.  These are the 

          9        people -- they endured a long bus trip last night to 

         10        be here.  These are the people who represent the 

         11        folks that are going to utilize this facility.  

         12              I also have with me here 4,651 signed petitions 

         13        of other people that couldn't be here today that 

         14        support the pier.  And I would like to submit those 

         15        for the record.  

         16              Don't be fooled into thinking that there are 

         17        plenty of places for people to fish from shore in 

         18        Palm Beach County to catch marine fish.  There 

         19        aren't.  At one time when we had a population of 

         20        200,000 people, there were three piers that supported 

         21        that population.  We are up to almost a million 

         22        people living in Palm Beach County, we are down to 

         23        one pier.  

         24              If you think that the bridges across the 

         25        intracoastal waterway, the several jetties that we 


          1        have that are still accessible are substitutes for a 

          2        pier, you are wrong.  They are not.  They are not 

          3        safe places for kids to fish.  They are inaccessible 

          4        to many handicapped people.  They are not safe places 

          5        for many elderly people.  It's no substitute for a 

          6        fishing pier.  

          7              A fishing pier, this one, will extend almost 

          8        900 feet into the ocean.  And what a pier does is it 

          9        gives anglers that don't have the boat a year-round 

         10        opportunity to catch fish and be more productive at 

         11        it and catch a greater variety of fish.  

         12              You are going to hear from other people that we 

         13        got all these miles of beaches that people can fish 

         14        from.  At best, fishing off the beach is only good 

         15        seasonally.  And again, it's not accessible to people 

         16        that are confined to a wheelchair, for example.  

         17              So don't be mislead.  We need greater access.  

         18        We care about the turtles.  But the need for this 

         19        facility greatly outweighs any impact, real or 

         20        perceived, that this structure is going to have on 

         21        the community or marine turtles.  

         22              We are asking you to do what's in the best 

         23        interest of the majority of the people and not a 

         24        vocal few.  Thank you very much. 

         25              MR. McROBERTS:  Hello, Governor and Cabinet 


          1        members, people for the pier and people for the 

          2        turtles, my name is Samuel J. McRoberts.  I have been 

          3        a resident of Palm Beach County for 33 years, and I 

          4        spent some of the better times in my youth at the 

          5        Juno Beach fishing pier.  I also went to Florida 

          6        State University and graduated with honors in the 

          7        business college.  

          8              I've got to say I saw hundreds of turtles lay 

          9        their nests, even some under the pier, and nobody 

         10        back then said anything about it.  That pier was 

         11        there for 25 years and it hasn't survived.  The 

         12        turtles have survived fine, though.  

         13              I have never seen a pier ever hurt a turtle, 

         14        that's never kept a turtle from laying its eggs nor 

         15        have I ever heard of a pier keeping hatchlings from 

         16        making it back into the ocean.  The big problem are 

         17        boats, nets, and condominium lights.  

         18              The very people that are here against the pier 

         19        are the people from the Town of Jupiter and 

         20        condominiums that are on the west side of AIA.  

         21              It's a public beach down there, and the 

         22        property we are talking about is Palm Beach County 

         23        property.  It's five acres, the parking is all 

         24        there.  

         25              Recently they made a trade to tear down the sea 


          1        grapes to a short height in order for the condominium 

          2        owners to replace the exotic trees that were there.  

          3        They knew then when they did this trade off, that 

          4        condominium lights caused turtles to get disoriented.  

          5        And it's in yesterday's local section that 15 nests 

          6        got disoriented and many turtles died.        This is 

          7        the wrong thing for responsible government people to 

          8        do.  

          9              Anyway, my main point is here is there is 45 

         10        miles of ocean front in Palm Beach County.  I am just 

         11        asking all of you up here to be responsible to the 

         12        children especially and also to the senior citizens.  

         13        All you are asking here for the people that are for 

         14        the pier are less than six inches per mile, or if you 

         15        factored it in one ten-thousandth of the ocean access 

         16        in Palm Beach County.  It's not much of a 

         17        concession.  

         18              It's your duty to let common sense prevail 

         19        here, and don't take heed to the false alarm of the 

         20        people that are against the pier.  There hasn't ever 

         21        been a pier even harm one turtle alone.  Thank you. 

         22              MR. KENNEDY:  Good morning.  I am Michael 

         23        Kennedy, and this is the other part of my family.  

         24        All of us couldn't make it, like the many, many other 

         25        people in Palm Beach County who can't take the time 


          1        to come here.  

          2              But this family, like the thousands of other 

          3        people who have signed petitions since 1988 for this 

          4        pier, support this pier.  And a lot of them live in 

          5        Jupiter.  Look at the addresses, and please, please 

          6        look at the people.  It's a broad cross section of 

          7        the people from our county and our town.  

          8              We also support these restrictions.  And that's 

          9        what I am here to tell you about.  That these 

         10        restrictions will protect turtles.  I fished on that 

         11        Juno pier.  I lived on that beach as a kid.  I would 

         12        like these kids and the thousands and thousands of 

         13        other kids in our town to be able to do that.  It's 

         14        better than hanging out at the mall, isn't it?  Much 

         15        better.  

         16              You can give these kids a legacy, a chance to 

         17        go and fish, our handicapped, our elderly, poor 

         18        people who can't afford a boat, kids who want to go 

         19        fish on a summer afternoon.  And these turtles will 

         20        be protected.  

         21              We are not against turtles.  This family goes 

         22        to beach clean ups, and I am proud of that.  We 

         23        fought for the net band, we fought for turtle 

         24        excluding devices on nets.  We are not oblivious to 

         25        the concerns of turtles.  This pier meets it.  Your 


          1        recommendations meet it.  Don't let us down, please. 

          2              MS. MURRAY:  Good morning.  My name is 

          3        Catherine Murray, and I am here with my daughter 

          4        Alison and her friend Megan, and I have an eight-year 

          5        son at home who wasn't able to make it.  

          6              We are proud to be natives of Palm Beach County 

          7        and support the Palm Beach County Juno Beach pier for 

          8        many reasons, most of all for the rich experience a 

          9        fishing pier provides for the young people.  Spending 

         10        time in nature and interacting with the elements and 

         11        other people teach respect, reverence and stewardship 

         12        of our valuable resources.  

         13              In my youth, I had the opportunity to spend 

         14        many enjoyable days fishing off the Juno Beach pier, 

         15        and I encourage you to support this proposed pier in 

         16        Palm Beach County, which our community also 

         17        supports.  

         18              Today, I can take my children to the beach, I 

         19        can teach them about the water, the weather, the sea 

         20        life and sea turtles, but we need to have a safe 

         21        place for our children to fish and provide the needed 

         22        opportunity to grow Florida style. 

         23              MR. BREWER:  Governor, members of the Cabinet, 

         24        actually Trustees, my name is Chester Brewer.  I am 

         25        here on behalf of and represent the board of the Palm 


          1        Beach County chapter of the Florida Conservation 

          2        Association.  With me is Ted Foresgren on behalf of 

          3        the statewide board of the Florida Conservation 

          4        Association.  

          5              Members of our board have been involved with 

          6        the issue.  I've got to tell you when it started, 

          7        there was no issue with regard to a pier.  Everyone 

          8        wanted the pier.  We are aware of the pros involved, 

          9        and we are very aware of some of these I guess lately 

         10        voiced cons with regard to this pier.  

         11              We have been involved since the beginning.  We 

         12        urge you, please let northern Palm Beach County have 

         13        its pier.  It's been a 10-year process that we have 

         14        been going through, and this entails probably the 

         15        last necessary step. 

         16              MR. FORESGREN:  I know our time is running 

         17        short.  I will be very brief.  

         18              The Florida Conservation Association, I myself, 

         19        have personally looked at all the issues involved in 

         20        this pier.  And the issues are difficult ones; they 

         21        are ones that are properly before you as Trustees,  

         22        on both the marine resources and the public resources 

         23        of people of Florida.  But we believe that a fishing 

         24        pier, with the stringent conditions that have been 

         25        imposed, which are far more stringent than any 


          1        conditions that have ever been proposed for any pier 

          2        in the state of Florida, we believe that you can 

          3        strike a balance between the need to provide some 

          4        recreation for the average citizen, the person who 

          5        can't afford a boat, and the real long-term 

          6        protection of marine sea turtles.  

          7              I, too, have fond memories when I was growing 

          8        up.  My family could not afford a boat.  When I was 

          9        fortunate enough to have my father home on weekends, 

         10        we would go to the Balast Point Pier in Tampa, and 

         11        that was big game fishing for me at that time.  

         12              So I know that this type of recreational 

         13        opportunities is important.  We also know that 

         14        protection of sea turtles is important.  But we 

         15        believe that this proposal with the stringent 

         16        conditions, which we very firmly support, will 

         17        provide the proper balance.  

         18              And we urge you to approve the lease. Thank 

         19        you.

         20              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you, sir. 

         21              MS. FLETCHER:  I am Ellen Fletcher, the turtle 

         22        lady of Juno Beach.  I was the first and only permit 

         23        holder, 006, in 1969.  

         24              For 15 years, I worked, I call it turtling, 

         25        night, day and Sunday, for 15 years, and the pier was 


          1        in the middle of the highest nesting records and is 

          2        still is without the pier.  

          3              But -- we had a green turtle -- we had many 

          4        turtles underneath the pier, where before it reaches 

          5        the water was a nice pier.  We must replace that.  

          6        It's for everybody.  The restrictions are not bad.  

          7        We didn't open nights.  If they ran it, if they run 

          8        it, with the same rules as the old wooden pier, it 

          9        will be excellent, just excellent.  

         10              And it covers the children and the elderly.  

         11        And I know how much it means to those, and the school 

         12        children.  I went to the schools.  The children in 

         13        the schools, they must -- the worse restrictions are 

         14        from the turtle people, protection and all that, 

         15        conservation.  

         16              But those people have not even dug a nest.  

         17        They haven't even had the experience the kids have 

         18        had for the last 27 years.  So we need that pier for 

         19        all people.  Thank you. 

         20              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you. 

         21              MR. YOUNG:  Thank you, Governor and Cabinet.  

         22        My name is Lorenzo Young.  I work with the community 

         23        base group out of Jupiter called the Limestone Creek 

         24        Community Development Corporation.  And as we were 

         25        looking at strategies to help revitalize our 


          1        community, one of the major things that we looked at 

          2        were the amenities that would help youth, those who 

          3        were we considered troubled or at-risk.  And we 

          4        looked at the Juno Beach pier as an opportunity, not 

          5        just for people of Palm Beach County, but part of the 

          6        strategy that we would also like to see come about.   

          7                   I think a key thing here to look at is 

          8        youth needing things to do and places to go.  This is 

          9        an opportunity that a family can take their kids and 

         10        enjoy the amenities of Palm Beach County.  

         11              For low to moderate income people, who may not 

         12        be able to afford a motor boat of their own, this is 

         13        an excellent opportunity.  And I think fishing is one 

         14        of the greatest resources that Florida has to offer.  

         15        So when we come as a community -- and there is some 

         16        other residents of our small community, which mostly 

         17        the minority -- we are very excited about the 

         18        opportunity.  

         19              And we hope that the Governor and Cabinet take 

         20        a real serious look that we, as part of our strategy, 

         21        have opened up our community with the Greenways 

         22        project.  And we know a lot of times that it might 

         23        not be what we want it to be, but it's doing the 

         24        right thing.  

         25              I think we need to look at that as being a 


          1        serious issue here rather than succumbing to the 

          2        interest of a few.  I think the consideration of the 

          3        turtles is there.  And just look at what's best for 

          4        Palm Beach County.  Thank you. 

          5              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you. 

          6              MR. BERRY: Good morning, Governor and Cabinet 

          7        members.  My name is Jim Berry.  I am with Palm Beach 

          8        County Environmental Resources.  

          9              As an environmental permitting agency, we have 

         10        really worked hard and long, and we tried to address 

         11        head on all of the turtle issues that really have 

         12        been brought before you.  

         13              With that and to that extent, we have placed 

         14        specific conditions on this permit that are more 

         15        stringent than any fishing pier in the state of 

         16        Florida, and as far as I am aware, any fishing pier 

         17        in the world.  

         18              Other piers in the state of Florida have 

         19        turtles, but nothing of the magnitude that we have 

         20        placed on this pier with the specific conditions.     

         21              All of the professional permitting agencies -- 

         22        the National Marine Fisheries, U.S. Fish and 

         23        Wildlife, Army Corps of Engineers, DEP -- all agree 

         24        that with the prudent and reasonable measures that we 

         25        have placed on this pier, we will not -- underline 


          1        the word not -- have a significant impact to marine 

          2        turtles.  

          3              That doesn't mean to say that they haven't 

          4        written in that there will be some take.  There will 

          5        be absolutely minimal take.  That's not -- that's a 

          6        tremendous trade off for the recreational advantage 

          7        we are getting here.  

          8              We have gone to the extent to hire two outside 

          9        consultants, gave them our information, said take 

         10        it.  Don't try to read into it one way or the other. 

         11        We want to put a pier here.  Give us your information 

         12        and see what your results will come out as.  

         13              Both of those came out supporting the pier,  

         14        specifically tagging in specific and reasonable 

         15        prudent conditions that we have placed on this pier.  

         16              So you can verbalize all you want.  You can 

         17        rant and rave, but the agencies are all behind it.  

         18        And if we thought for a moment as an environmental 

         19        permitting agency ourselves that we were going to 

         20        create a problem for turtles, I can guarantee you I 

         21        would not be here and the agency would not be here 

         22        trying to get a permit for this pier.  Thank you. 

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  We have a question.

         24              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  You represent the 

         25        environmental department in Palm Beach County?


          1              MR. BERRY:  Yes, sir, I do.

          2              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  And you made the 

          3        statement about all the different agencies that 

          4        support this.  See if you can comment and help me 

          5        understand this.  

          6              I have a letter here from the National Marine 

          7        Fisheries, and I quote: However, we believe that 

          8        operation of the pier and associated activities may 

          9        adversely affect loggerhead, green, leatherback and 

         10        hawksbill turtles during the nesting season.  

         11              Then I have a letter dated -- from National 

         12        Marine Fisheries a couple of weeks ago -- May 31, 

         13        that says the Juno Beach fishing pier biological 

         14        opinion and included incidental take estimate that 

         15        even with all protective measures prescribed in the 

         16        opinion, one green, leatherback or hawksbill turtle 

         17        and two loggerhead turtles will be taken each year as 

         18        a result of the pier project, end of quote. 

         19              MR. BERRY:  That's correct.

         20              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Now, give me your comment 

         21        on that.

         22              MR. BERRY:  I am not standing before you right 

         23        now telling you there will not be a single turtle 

         24        impacted.  That would be an absolute ridiculous 

         25        statement to make.  


          1              And I am in agreement with those statements, 

          2        that they are; but what the agencies are all saying 

          3        that they will permit, is that that is too an 

          4        absolute minimal level.  

          5              You have 100 or more turtles at piers at Lake 

          6        Worth, for example, with no specific conditions on 

          7        it.  You have a Jupiter inlet district thing that was 

          8        just permitted with no specific conditions on it.  

          9        Those will be takes, too.  

         10              If you look at the entire area of fishing, if 

         11        you said let's look at fishing along the Jupiter to 

         12        Juno area and you said the issue was whether we are 

         13        going to have fishing or not fishing -- that's 

         14        certainly not the issue right now -- but National 

         15        Marine Fisheries would have to come back and write 

         16        that same kind of comment because somebody could 

         17        potentially hook a turtle.  I am not saying there 

         18        won't be any.

         19              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Is the Lake Worth Pier 

         20        Beach area, is it a high concentration nest area like 

         21        Juno Beach?

         22              MR. BERRY: No, sir, it is not.

         23              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  And the Jupiter Beach 

         24        inlet, which you referred to as a pier, are there 

         25        nesting turtles there?


          1              MR. BERRY:  About 200 per mile, yes, sir, not 

          2        anywhere near to the magnitude that there are at this 

          3        one.

          4              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  At Juno Beach?

          5              MR. BERRY:   That's correct.  We have about 

          6        1100 per mile at Juno Beach.  We have about 200 per 

          7        mile per at the jetty.  We have about 100 per mile at 

          8        Lake Worth Pier.

          9              (Attorney Butterworth exited the room.)

         10              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  And how many at Juno 

         11        Beach?

         12              MR. BERRY:  About 1100 per mile.

         13              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  1100 nests per mile at 

         14        Juno Beach?

         15              MR. BERRY:  Nest per mile, that's correct.  And 

         16        higher north of that, about 1700 nests per mile on 

         17        the other side of the jetty at Jupiter Island.

         18              THE GOVERNOR:  Yes.

         19              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  One person before you 

         20        stated that were some sea grapes cut down or 

         21        something?  I know you were explaining about in Juno 

         22        they cut down some sea grapes?

         23              MR. BERRY:  Yes, sir, the Town of Jupiter 

         24        permitted 1800 lineal feet of sea grapes be cut down.

         25              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Is that in a high turtle 


          1        nesting area?

          2              MR. BERRY:  That is exactly the same area we 

          3        are talking about, just a little bit north of it, the 

          4        same nesting, 1100 per mile or higher, or whatever.

          5              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And there was some 

          6        comments made that that had the effect of taking 

          7        about 15 turtles?  What was that?  

          8              MR. BERRY:  The Marine Life Center did the 

          9        monitoring on that, and they showed disorientation, 

         10        total nest disorientation of 17 nests that were 

         11        totally disoriented.  All the juveniles went the 

         12        wrong way through light that was let in from that 

         13        cutting.

         14              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Who let the cutting 

         15        happen?

         16              MR. BERRY:  The Town of Jupiter.

         17              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Town of Jupiter?  

         18              MR. BERRY:  Yes, sir.  

         19              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So the county has no 

         20        control over that.  The city has control.

         21              MR. BERRY:  No, sir, we lost that control.  

         22        That ordinance was taken away from us, yes, sir. 

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you, sir. 

         24              MR. GREEN:  For the opposition, Dr.  Peter 

         25        Pritchard with Florida Audubon.


          1              DR. PRITCHARD:  I am Dr. Peter Pritchard.  I am 

          2        vice-president of the Florida Audubon Society.  And I 

          3        have to bring the board vote of 39 to 1 in opposition 

          4        to the Juno Beach pier.  

          5              And I personally am a sea turtle specialist, 

          6        and I've worked worldwide on sea turtles and sea 

          7        turtles issues and conservation and science for about 

          8        30 years.  

          9              We have a number of speakers, and I hope they 

         10        won't get carried away.  We are going to try to keep 

         11        them in the available time.  

         12              Important to remember that Florida protected 

         13        sea turtles first.  They did it several months before 

         14        the Feds did in the early 1970s.  And since then, the 

         15        Feds have recognized Florida's expertise in the field 

         16        by delegating responsibility for turtle management 

         17        and conservation to the Department of Environmental 

         18        Protection and various antecedents.  

         19              Juno is famous worldwide.  It is a place where 

         20        loggerheads nest in almost unprecedented numbers.  

         21        The only comparable numbers would be a little north 

         22        on Jupiter and in the areas of the Indian River 

         23        County and South Broward County that are slated to be 

         24        the Archie Carr Refuge.  

         25              We have taken the Archie Carr Refuge very 


          1        seriously at the state, local and national levels.  

          2        Tens of millions of dollars have been spent for a 

          3        target of 100 million dollars expenditure to make 

          4        sure that beach is safe and included in the refuge 

          5        system.  

          6              We are not suggesting that Juno be acquired 

          7        inch by inch by the state or anyone else and included 

          8        in the national refuge system.  But we would consider 

          9        it as sort of almost a bazaarly opposite treatment 

         10        that would make little consistency or sense to allow 

         11        it to be developed with a thousand foot pier right in 

         12        the middle of it.

         13              (Attorney General Butterworth enters the room.) 

         14              DR. PRITCHARD:  The issue was discussed among a 

         15        gathering of international sea turtle 

         16        conservationists and scientists at Hiltonhead, South 

         17        Carolina, earlier this year.  There was a caucus 

         18        meeting to decide on a policy.  And basically, 400 

         19        signatures were gathered in opposition to the pier.

         20              THE GOVERNOR:  Excuse me, for interrupting you, 

         21        but what position did you all take before the City of 

         22        Juno in regard to the cutting of sea grapes? 

         23              DR. PRITCHARD:  We didn't take a position on 

         24        that.  We would have done --

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  You didn't have 400 scientists 


          1        meet on that and you didn't do that?  This is the 

          2        world's best turtle beach, you just told me?

          3              DR. PRITCHARD:  I agree.  We have incomplete 

          4        coverage of the issues.  Some come to our attention 

          5        and some we don't learn about in time.  And many 

          6        things get by us.  And I am not saying that the Juno 

          7        pier is the worst thing that ever happened to sea 

          8        turtles.  It's simply the issue before us today.  

          9              But certainly we were distressed to hear about 

         10        the cutting at Jupiter.  Twenty-six countries, 

         11        representatives from 26 countries signed this 

         12        petition and about 10 Fish and Wildlife Service and 

         13        Natural Marine Fishery Service biologists signed it 

         14        as well in their capacity as private individuals.  

         15        But these are the people in the federal government 

         16        who know most about turtles.  

         17              We are disturbed about the pier for a number of 

         18        physical reasons -- the lighting that will be 

         19        necessary at the end of the pier is still not being 

         20        completely defined.  We heard there will be one 

         21        light; we heard there will be three.  There have to 

         22        be some lighting on the coast guard regulations just 

         23        so boating doesn't collide with it at night.  

         24              And if I may allude to maybe titles of various 

         25        films, I think titles have Basic Instinct and there 


          1        will be a Fatal Attraction with those lights out 

          2        there.  

          3              We don't have Sharon Stone to testify on our 

          4        behalf, but as the turtles come out of their nests, 

          5        they orient strongly towards light because that's the 

          6        only way they can decide what is the right way to 

          7        go.  

          8              And when they reach a light, whether it be a 

          9        port hole of a boat illuminated or light on the end 

         10        of a pier, they will swim up to it and continue 

         11        swimming right there rather than continue on past 

         12        it.  

         13              (Commissioner Milligan exits the room.)

         14              This being the case, they become very 

         15        vulnerable to the concentrations of predators that 

         16        gather under -- the fish predators that gather under 

         17        piers and other what they call topographic submarine 

         18        complexity.  

         19              The turtles are making fragile recoveries.  The 

         20        numbers are getting better each year.  We protected 

         21        them for 20 years now.  The fishing industry had to 

         22        go to enormous lengths with TEDS.  Many things have 

         23        been done.  Hatcheries have been operated, and thank 

         24        God we are getting some recovery.  The species are 

         25        picking up, but it's a fragile recovery.  And if we 


          1        allow development in the middle of the nesting 

          2        beaches, we'll set it back.  

          3              I am aware, too, that for the Trustees to issue 

          4        a permit for development of submerged sovereign 

          5        lands, this is not anybody's right.  This is a 

          6        privilege extended under special circumstances when 

          7        you are totally convinced that it is in the public 

          8        interest.  It's not something that simply you are 

          9        obliged to issue to someone who used the right form 

         10        to make the application.  

         11              There seems to be no dissent that there will be 

         12        an impact on endangered and threatened turtles.  

         13        Rehabilitation has been proposed.  Fish and Wildlife 

         14        and National Marine Fisheries have projected some 

         15        anticipated numbers, rather small numbers of the 

         16        number of turtles they feel will be impacted.  

         17              My problem with them is that the numbers are 

         18        frankly pure speculation.  My friends at the agency 

         19        concede that.  They had to put numbers down.  Here 

         20        are some numbers.  

         21              The question is:  What happens when the quota 

         22        is reached?  And I would put to you that there is no 

         23        mechanism in hand for removing a pier or stopping 

         24        operations or anything else when a quota is reached.  

         25        We saw this with the Texas shook fishery and they had 


          1        a permit for a certain number.  The number was 

          2        exceeded three fold, four fold, five fold. And 

          3        everyone looked confused.  But the fishery went on 

          4        fishing.  

          5              So there is a serious deficiency in mechanisms 

          6        right there.  

          7              We have the problem of piecemeal development, 

          8        trickle down development.  What will happen following 

          9        the pier?  The pier is closed at night, so the people 

         10        come off the beach and -- off the pier and they will 

         11        fish from the beach, or they may tie up small boats 

         12        to the beach, under pilings, et cetera.  

         13              But we worry that precedent is crucial.  You 

         14        won't lose every loggerhead in the United States if 

         15        this pier is built, but you would have made the 

         16        wrong step which will lead to comparable steps, some 

         17        inevitable, some future government decisions, which 

         18        together will ultimately destroy the nesting habitat 

         19        for these endangered and threatened species of 

         20        reptile.  

         21              I would like to go on for another hour, but I 

         22        won't.  I will stop, and we have a number of people 

         23        from various organizations who will speak to the 

         24        cause.  The first one is David Godfrey from the 

         25        Caribbean Conservation. 


          1              MR. GODFREY:  Again, I am speaking on behalf of 

          2        the Caribbean Conservation.  We have over 2,000 

          3        members in Florida.  We are here also to ask that you 

          4        deny the submerged lease requested by Palm Beach 

          5        County.  

          6              Caribbean Conservation was founded over 35 

          7        years ago by Dr. Archie Carr for the purpose of 

          8        studying and protecting marine turtles around the 

          9        world.  

         10              One of the things that we have ascertained 

         11        after three decades of research is that it really is 

         12        the gradual chipping away at important sea turtle 

         13        nesting sites that is one of the most serious, 

         14        long-term threats to the survival of these species.  

         15        And quite simply, Juno Beach is really a gem as far 

         16        as sea turtles are concerned.  I mean, there are very 

         17        few places in the world, much less in Florida, where 

         18        sea turtles come to nest with such great quantity and 

         19        in such great variety.  

         20              We are simply saying why risk this extremely 

         21        important area to build a pier that could be built in 

         22        a more appropriate site and which, if built at Juno, 

         23        would come with serious restrictions on its use as a 

         24        recreational asset?  

         25              Even with those restrictions, we've heard a lot 


          1        of support for them.  Even with those restrictions, 

          2        there are going to be significant adverse impacts 

          3        from the pier on turtles.  

          4              (Commission Milligan entered the room.)

          5              MR. GODFREY:  Additional light, additional 

          6        development in the area, monofilament line and hooks.  

          7        I am not sure why the issue of grapes being cut down 

          8        is so correlated with this issue.  But the thing that 

          9        I ascertained from that is that if the cutting down 

         10        of the grapes had such an impact on the turtles 

         11        because additional light was in that area, what do we 

         12        think the pier is going to do?  

         13              This is the same area.  What impact is the pier 

         14        going to have?  

         15              Basically, we just recommend that you oppose 

         16        this pier in this site, allow the conservation 

         17        community and others who are willing to work with the 

         18        county to find a more appropriate site and we will 

         19        support that.  Thank you very much. 

         20              DR. PRITCHARD:  Bruce Ryan from the Center for 

         21        Marine Conservation.

         22              MR. RYAN:  Good morning.  As Dr. Pritchard 

         23        said, I represent the Center For Marine Conservation.  

         24        I am Director of Programs with this Washington, D.C., 

         25        based marine conservation group.  Thank you for the 


          1        opportunity to come before you in person to express 

          2        our concerns.  

          3              This Center for Marine Conservation represents 

          4        over 120,000 members nationwide and 10,000 members in 

          5        Florida.  We ask that you do not issue a submerged 

          6        land lease for construction of a fishing pier on the 

          7        currently proposed Juno Beach site.  

          8              The Center for Marine Conservation has worked 

          9        on sea turtle conservation issues around the world 

         10        for 20 years.  From this perspective, we can state 

         11        that degradation and loss of nesting habitat is 

         12        rapidly becoming one of the top conservation issues 

         13        for endangered and threatened marine turtles 

         14        globally.  And looking from a global perspective, 

         15        only several sites in the whole world compare to the 

         16        importance of sea turtle habitat in this part of 

         17        Florida.  

         18              Along with the beaches of the Archie Carr 

         19        National Wildlife Refuge, Juno Beach has some of the 

         20        highest densities of sea turtle nesting in North 

         21        America.  It is very likely that so many turtles nest 

         22        on Juno Beach in large part because of the relatively 

         23        dark, undeveloped nature of the area.  

         24              This pier does not have to be built on this 

         25        particular site.  It is our understanding that there 


          1        are several alternative sites in the vicinity with 

          2        much lower potential for disrupting sea turtle 

          3        nesting.  

          4              The Center for Marine Conservation urges you to 

          5        reject the proposed lease and recommend its 

          6        proponents consider one of the alternative sites.  We 

          7        are not against a pier.  We are opposed to this 

          8        particular location.  

          9              Thank you for this opportunity to address you 

         10        and for your consideration of this matter.            

         11            DR. PRITCHARD:  Manley Fuller with the Florida 

         12        Wildlife Federation. 

         13              MR. FULLER:  Governor and Cabinet, we have 

         14        friends on both sides of this issue, we think, as I 

         15        know you all do as well. 

         16              THE GOVERNOR:  You are standing with your 

         17        friends? 

         18              MR. FULLER:  I will make our position clear, 

         19        but we do -- we feel that the opposition in this -- 

         20        and a lot of these are honorable people and they are 

         21        dedicated to both recreation and conservation of sea 

         22        turtles.  

         23              We oppose, the Florida Wildlife Federation 

         24        opposes the proposed pier in this location.  We 

         25        support recreational opportunities for the public.  


          1        We support fishing.  If this were not in such a high 

          2        sea turtle nesting area, we would not be speaking 

          3        against this pier in this location.  

          4              (Commission Nelson exits the room.)

          5              MR. FULLER:  There is tremendous variation in 

          6        the density of turtle nesting in the county, and we 

          7        would like to see other opportunities fully 

          8        explored.  

          9              We recognize that the department has put a lot 

         10        of work in attempting to develop restrictions which 

         11        would minimize impacts on turtles.  We think that 

         12        over time, future Cabinets will be addressing 

         13        attempts to peel back those restrictions.  We think 

         14        that will occur.  

         15              We think that -- we find it puzzling that this 

         16        proposal is necessarily the best proposal for fishing 

         17        opportunities in the county as well, because these 

         18        restrictions are in place from March to the end of 

         19        October.  That's seven months out of the year when 

         20        you cannot fish at night.  

         21              I know a lot of fishing opportunities are late 

         22        afternoon and early morning.  There are some people 

         23        who like to fish at night during those seasons.  

         24        Specifically between -- more interest in the period 

         25        from March through May and September and October.  We 


          1        would like to see a pier constructed that could be in 

          2        a lower turtle nesting area that could have less 

          3        restrictions placed on it.  

          4              That's our position, and I will be glad to take 

          5        any questions.  Thank you.  

          6              DR. PRITCHARD:  Bram Canter with Florida 

          7        Defenders of the Environment. 

          8              MR. CANTER:  Good morning, Governor, Cabinet 

          9        members.  

         10              On behalf of Florida Defenders of the 

         11        Environment, I delivered a letter from Ms. Margery 

         12        Carr to each one of you a month ago when the matter 

         13        was on the agenda before.  And Florida Defenders of 

         14        the Environment is opposed to this lease.  

         15              We hope that you will follow what should be a 

         16        general policy of the state to safeguard those areas 

         17        that constitute the best, the highest quality, the 

         18        most pristine for any particular habitat, creature or 

         19        natural system.  And in this case, we think that's 

         20        what Juno Beach represents.  

         21              That's not the place we believe you should 

         22        experiment or take a risk.  But rather, if you want 

         23        to try to compromise the interest of the human 

         24        population with the wildlife population, then that 

         25        should be in areas that are already disturbed.  Thank 


          1        you very much.  

          2              DR. PRITCHARD:  Thomas Moliterno with the 

          3        International Fund For Animal Welfare. 

          4              (Governor Chiles exits the room.)

          5              MR. MOLITERNO:  Governor, Members of the 

          6        Cabinet, thanks for the opportunity to come here 

          7        today and speak to you.  My name is Tom Moliterno.  I 

          8        am a director of the International Fund for Animal 

          9        Welfare, one of the world's largest international 

         10        animal protection organizations with 1.5 million 

         11        supporters in 72 countries around the world.  

         12              And the International Fund opposes the pier at 

         13        Juno Beach.  

         14              I believe we need to be very clear about what 

         15        it is that's at issue here today.  We are not talking 

         16        about public rights to fish.  We are not talking 

         17        about citizens' rights to access public waters and 

         18        public lands.  We are talking about endangered sea 

         19        turtles.  

         20              And I urge you to put this discussion into the 

         21        context of national and international opinion towards 

         22        endangered species protection.  And we can talk about 

         23        a lot of cases over the past year that illustrate 

         24        this, but I think the most telling to today's 

         25        discussion is the December 1995 ruling of the US 


          1        Court of International Trade that places the United 

          2        States under a court order to embargo shrimp imports 

          3        from 52 nations around the world because the fishing 

          4        fleets from those nations do not have sufficient 

          5        protections for endangered sea turtles.  

          6              Now, if it's that important, if sea turtle 

          7        protection is that important to the United States, it 

          8        should be that important here at Juno Beach.  

          9              I encourage you, I urge you to put sea turtle 

         10        protection in the mainstream of Florida policy and do 

         11        the right thing by denying use of this submerged land 

         12        lease.  Thank you. 

         13              MS. CAPLOWE:  Good morning, Governor and 

         14        Cabinet, my name is Susan Caplowe.  I am here today 

         15        speaking for Florida Consumer Action Network, which 

         16        is a 40,000 member organization statewide, and the 

         17        Florida Chapter of the Sierra Club which has 20,000 

         18        members.  

         19              The local Sierra Club group, the Loxahatachee 

         20        group, debated this issue.  They met with the 

         21        commissioners, and the board unanimously voted 

         22        against this project.  

         23              We echo the comments of the previous speakers.  

         24        It's a valuable nesting ground.  The leatherbacks, 

         25        green loggerheads and hawksbills need a place to nest 


          1        that is unencumbered.  

          2              (Governor Chiles enters the room. )

          3              MS. CAPLOWE:  A pier built in this area is 

          4        going to bring garbage from humans, left over bait.  

          5        Other birds and animals are going to be attracted to 

          6        this area, thus you are diminishing the ability for 

          7        these turtles to have a safe area to nest.  

          8              Species become extinct and endangered by 

          9        incremental destruction of their nesting areas and 

         10        their habitats.

         11              (Commissioner Crawford leaves the room.)  

         12              MS. CAPLOWE:  Every little bit here and there 

         13        causes them to go extinct.  

         14              Please vote against this.  You have the ability 

         15        to do this because of the submerged lands.  You can't 

         16        control what they do.  The county does in uplands.  

         17        So please vote against this.  Thank you. 

         18              MS. HOMCY:  Good morning, Governor, members of 

         19        the Cabinet.  Nice to see you all again.  My name is 

         20        Jennifer Homcy, and I want to give you a list of the 

         21        organizations who oppose this project without being 

         22        able to be represented here today for various 

         23        reasons.  

         24              We have Save the Turtles, which is an 

         25        organization based in the keys, Wildlife Conservation 


          1        International which does wildlife conservation 

          2        projects in 32 countries around the world.  The Palm 

          3        Beach Divers Association, which takes 140,000 people 

          4        diving each year on the reefs in Palm Beach County 

          5        and helps promote conservation efforts.  The Humane 

          6        Society of Americas, Reef Environmental Education 

          7        Foundation, the Florida Marine Conservation 

          8        Corporation and the Sea Turtle Preservation Society 

          9        who are the stewards of the Carr Refuge.  

         10              (Commission Crawford enters the room.)

         11              MS. HOMCY:  We have petitions signed from 

         12        hundreds, I reiterate, hundreds of beach residents 

         13        stating that they would like to see a pier built in 

         14        their area.  

         15              We also have symposium positions. We also have 

         16        petitions signed from the public, and I will submit 

         17        those for public record.  

         18              Some things that I wanted to talk about that I 

         19        think are taking away from the issue but need to be 

         20        cleared up is the sea grape cutting issue.  Palm 

         21        Beach County permitted a condo in 1994 that violates 

         22        their own county ordinance, that regardless of the 

         23        sea grape trimming issue would have caused 

         24        disorientation.  

         25              DEP and Palm Beach County employees did several 


          1        lighting surveys down there prior -- after the 

          2        construction of this condo and improper permitting 

          3        which was pushed through in one single day, from 

          4        December 22 to December 23 when the permit was 

          5        mailed.  

          6              So I think that this is not really the proper 

          7        issue to be focusing on right now.  

          8              I am a resident of Palm Beach County.  I was 

          9        born and raised there.  I grew up on that fishing 

         10        pier.  I spent much of my time down there after 

         11        school fishing, and a good portion of my weekends and 

         12        summers there.  And I also commercial dive.  I am not 

         13        against fishing, I support the fishing activities.  I 

         14        am a fisherman.  I was a fisherman before I was ever 

         15        a sea turtle biologist.  

         16              I just graduated from school and I got eight 

         17        nesting seasons worth of experience in working on the 

         18        beaches of Juno and Jupiter.  And I surveyed the 

         19        Jupiter inlet for Palm Beach County for three years 

         20        when I worked for the Department of Environmental 

         21        Resource Management.  

         22              And I can also tell you that the nesting next 

         23        to the inlet is incredibly low, that the average in 

         24        that entire stretch is a couple hundred nests per 

         25        mile.  The nesting in the immediate area adjacent to 


          1        the jetty is very low and will have very minimal 

          2        impacts there.

          3              I am going to rush this.  I would like to allow 

          4        time for the rest of the speakers to speak.  But I 

          5        will be available for questions.

          6              THE GOVERNOR:  When you were there and using 

          7        the pier before, do you think that was any 

          8        obstruction, hurt the turtles?

          9              Working with the same number of turtles?

         10              MS. HOMCY:  I don't believe there were the same 

         11        number of turtles on that beach.  Ms. Fletcher's data 

         12        I reviewed when I worked for Palm Beach County, and 

         13        you would be more properly informed to ask her about 

         14        the numbers of turtles that were there while she 

         15        monitored the beach.  And I could tell you what we 

         16        got now, which you heard several times.  

         17              But in terms of my perception of what happened 

         18        while the pier was there, I don't think that we knew 

         19        enough, and sea turtles had been so severely 

         20        disseminated up until the '70s when they first 

         21        started receiving protection that they didn't start 

         22        really making their strong recovery until after 

         23        that.  

         24              So I don't think we can speculate as to what 

         25        the impacts were.  But I do remember seeing turtles 


          1        get hooked.  And yes, turtles did nest around the 

          2        pier.  And that structure was closed at night.  But 

          3        it was a private pier.  It was very localized.  It 

          4        wasn't advertised and not very many people knew it 

          5        was there.  

          6              I think the parking lot there only has about 44 

          7        parking spots.

          8              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Do your surveys coincide 

          9        with the gentleman who tested from the Department of 

         10        Environmental Protection?  I think what he said down 

         11        at the Lake Worth pier, there were 100 nests per 

         12        mile.  He said in the Jupiter area, there were -- 

         13        yes, in the Jupiter area he said 200 per mile.  And 

         14        he said at the Juno Beach site there were 1100 per 

         15        mile.

         16              MS. HOMCY:  I will agree with the 1100 per 

         17        mile.  Last season we had record breaking numbers.  

         18        It was almost 1500 nests per mile in that particular 

         19        stretch of beach.  

         20              The thing is when we talk about nest surveys, 

         21        they are broken down into zones.  And when we average 

         22        it out, we are averaging out all of the nesting 

         23        activity per zone for the entire nest survey area 

         24        that one particular turtle surveyor does.  So when we 

         25        say there are 100 nests per mile in the Lake Worth 


          1        area, we don't know whether that's directly adjacent 

          2        to the pier or not because of the way they have those 

          3        zones broken down.  And when we say there is 200 

          4        nests per mile at the Jupiter inlet, we don't know, 

          5        unless you look at that specific zone and the average 

          6        of nests per season in that specific zone that's 

          7        adjacent to that area.  

          8              I thank you for your time. 

          9              MS. COMERFORD:  Good morning, Governor Chiles 

         10        and Cabinet members.  Greetings from the Zoological 

         11        Society of the Palm Beaches.  I am Kathy Comerford, 

         12        secretary of the board of directors.  

         13              The zoo is part of the American Zoological 

         14        Association and its national mission is 

         15        conservation.  We have over 200 zoos and aquariums 

         16        that are part of this group.  The board of directors 

         17        of the Prairie Park Zoo is unanimously opposed to 

         18        this site of the Juno Beach pier.  This site would 

         19        have a detrimental effect on one of the largest 

         20        nesting habitats in the western hemisphere.  

         21              Please deny this use or lease of this public 

         22        land, our lands, I guess my lands, which affect three 

         23        federally protected endangered and protected species 

         24        of sea turtles.  Thank you. 

         25              MR. DANIELS:  Good morning.  My name is Don 


          1        Daniels, vice mayor of the Town of Jupiter.  I came 

          2        here with a little different kind of speech until I 

          3        heard some of the accusations.  

          4              I would like to point out before we get into 

          5        that issue, though, that we have done an 

          6        investigation on the available fishing opportunities, 

          7        at least in our north area.  And these presentations 

          8        that you see, I believe you have copies of those, you 

          9        will see that these are definitely attractive fishing 

         10        opportunities.  The Jupiter inlet jetty, I thought 

         11        that issue about safety was closed.  There was an 

         12        article in the June 9 paper that states that the 

         13        Jupiter inlet district has hired safety consultants 

         14        to take care of any safety issues that may appear on 

         15        that platform.  

         16              It is permitted.  It is ready to be built.  

         17              We did ask Palm Beach County to co-participate 

         18        with Jupiter in that district in '94.  We suggested 

         19        that, and that suggestion was not taken up by the 

         20        county.

         21               (Secretary Mortham leaves the room.)

         22              MR. DANIELS:  As far as the children go in our 

         23        community, we have one of the -- probably the most 

         24        prolific recreation department opportunities for 

         25        children that there is in Palm Beach County.  We have 


          1        a private organization also called the JTAA that 

          2        gives kids opportunities for sports activities and 

          3        other activities throughout our community, and that 

          4        is for all the residents of all the surrounding 

          5        municipalities in northern Palm Beach County.  

          6              It's a huge operation.  I donated the remainder 

          7        of my campaign fund to that organization because I 

          8        believe strongly in supporting the children in our 

          9        community.  

         10              (Secretary Mortham enters the room.)     

         11              MR. DANIELS: I definitely would not try to 

         12        prevent them from doing something that I thought 

         13        would be possible to give them -- that would be of 

         14        benefit.  

         15              So as far as the sea grape issue goes, the DER 

         16        had just lost their permitting capabilities, that's 

         17        the Palm Beach County DER, through a court action.  

         18        We had no permitting facilities in place for that 

         19        type of activity.  

         20              The condo owners could have gone in on their 

         21        own without any permitting at all and cut the sea 

         22        grapes to any height that they wanted to.  

         23              The first condo that wanted to do any trimming, 

         24        they came to the town.  We acted like we did have 

         25        some permitting capabilities.  We hired a landscape 


          1        architect to set the height.  It was no lower than 

          2        five feet for any trimming on that particular piece 

          3        of land.  

          4              Unfortunately, when the next condo came in, 

          5        right after that, this particular landscape architect 

          6        was not available.  But our staff made up a permit 

          7        that did not -- that left out the five foot height 

          8        and the workers on the site cut and cut and cut.  And 

          9        by the time the Town of Jupiter discovered what was 

         10        going on, by the time our inspectors got there, we 

         11        were upset, horrified, embarrassed and you name it.  

         12        And we have since then set an aggressive action so 

         13        this will never happen again.

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  You letting those sea grapes 

         15        grow back up then?

         16              MR. DANIELS:  Yes, sir, at this point they are 

         17        back up at their normal height.  Now it's just 

         18        starting turtle season.  It's worked out rather 

         19        well.  

         20              So we are aware of the problem.  We addressed 

         21        the problem immediately.  We were embarrassed.  And I 

         22        can guarantee you that something like that will never 

         23        happen again in our community.  

         24              If you have any questions, I will be happy to 

         25        field any questions.  I would like to introduce 


          1        Mr. Jon Moyle who is representing the Town of Jupiter 

          2        who can maybe wrap up some of your concerns.  Thank 

          3        you. 

          4              MR. MOYLE:  Governor and members of the -- or 

          5        perhaps I should say Trustees of the Internal 

          6        Improvement Fund, my name is Jon Moyle, and I am 

          7        representing the Town of Jupiter.  

          8              You have a difficult choice today, a difficult 

          9        decision to make.  You have two public policy options 

         10        that are conflicting.  You have the providing of 

         11        recreational, nonboat saltwater fishing on piers, 

         12        bridges and jetties, colliding with preventing or 

         13        prohibiting adverse environmental impact on one of 

         14        the best remaining habitats for turtles in Florida 

         15        and the United States.  

         16              They both are very valid.  They both are 

         17        important public policies, and both are supported by 

         18        well-intentioned, well-meaning citizens, not only   

         19        of Palm Beach County but of the state and country.  

         20              I would mention that in the opposition 

         21        testimony that you have heard, the only folks 

         22        representing the Town of Jupiter are the vice mayor 

         23        and myself.  The rest all represent either local 

         24        citizens or the environmental organizations of this 

         25        state.  


          1              In making the choice that's facing you today, I 

          2        suggest that a balancing of the benefits of the pier 

          3        against its environmental risk is the best route to 

          4        take.  And in doing that, it is very important, I 

          5        think, to recognize that your choice, your balancing 

          6        exercise today, is not a regulatory decision of a 

          7        local matter.  It is not a permit application with 

          8        criteria being satisfied, thereby establishing 

          9        entitlement of a permit.  

         10              What you have today is the lease of sovereign 

         11        owned lands.  The decision by the Trustees today is 

         12        about land held in trust for the citizens of 

         13        Florida.  The guiding principles in your rules 

         14        involve public interest in fulfilling the fiduciary 

         15        responsibilities for protection and disposition of 

         16        sovereign lands and on natural resources.  

         17              Activities on sovereign lands must not be 

         18        contrary to the public interest, and it is well 

         19        established that you have very wide discretion in 

         20        this balancing that you must do today.  

         21              I would like to just take one moment before I 

         22        summarize some balancing points to comment on the sea 

         23        grapes.  

         24              It was a mistake.  The town council 

         25        apologizes.  They have taken aggressive corrective 


          1        action, and the very news article that was referred 

          2        to rather gleefully is a news article that talks 

          3        about the aggressive corrective action that was taken 

          4        so that this will not happen again.  

          5              It occurred over a year ago, the cutting 

          6        occurred over a year ago, and the sea grape has grown 

          7        back.  I would suggest that one mistake does not 

          8        necessarily support another mistake.  

          9              I would like to summarize and mention several 

         10        areas that we believe are important in this balancing 

         11        or the choice that you have to make between two 

         12        policy options.  

         13              One is access.  There are existing saltwater 

         14        nonboat fishing opportunities either approved or in 

         15        existence in northern Palm Beach County.  This chart 

         16        illustrates these, with the red being limited to 

         17        saltwater fishing opportunities so that the 

         18        facilities are not just bridge facilities.  They are 

         19        restricted for the use of fishermen.  

         20              The blue are bridges that can be fished on.  

         21        The linear feet that I am talking about on this chart 

         22        are 2,334 linear feet, either existing or approved.  

         23        By approved, I mean this is out to bid and will begin 

         24        construction sometime this summer.  That's the 

         25        Jupiter pier, the Jupiter inlet district.  The rest 


          1        of them are all existing.  

          2              In addition, we asked the engineering 

          3        department of the Town of Jupiter to do from aerial 

          4        photos, a survey of the bridge, catwalk, jetties, 

          5        types of saltwater fishing opportunities in north 

          6        Palm Beach County, they came out with 11,198 feet 

          7        available.  

          8              You take these two numbers and you add them 

          9        together, and you apply these to the need formulas in 

         10        the state comprehensive outdoor recreational plan and 

         11        you can reach a conclusion that there is access for 

         12        nonboat saltwater fishing in northern Palm Beach 

         13        County.  

         14              I suggest that's important not to get into a 

         15        debate over the linear feet or the number of 

         16        opportunities, it's important in balancing whether 

         17        there is access against the environmental impact.     

         18              The DEP made two findings -- this is your 

         19        agency -- which I think are important.  I won't cite 

         20        the whole quote in the interest of time, but the 

         21        first one was on February 13.  They say that 

         22        historically, this has been the heaviest nesting 

         23        beach in the state.  

         24              And secondly, they say the effect of fishing 

         25        piers on nesting beach site selection has not been 


          1        previously studied.  Therefore, the potential effects 

          2        of the fishing pier on nesting beach selection and 

          3        nesting densities within the vicinity of the pier 

          4        cannot be accurately assessed.  

          5              I suggest that these two conclusions, objective 

          6        ones from your own agency, are important and equal 

          7        environmental risk for endangered and threatened 

          8        species and are not appropriate for the use, the 

          9        lease of sovereign owned lands. 

         10              Another quick point.  The relative need index 

         11        for 1995 for resource based recreational activities 

         12        in your state comp plan, activities for region 10, 

         13        the next-to-the-last activity in terms of priority 

         14        and need is saltwater fishing, nonboat, with an index 

         15        of 18.54.  The highest is bike riding with an index 

         16        of 553.87.  

         17              Again, this information supports existing 

         18        access for the nonboat saltwater fishing, and that it 

         19        is not a high priority recreational need for Palm 

         20        Beach County.  

         21              An additional balancing factor, again the 

         22        difficult choice you have to make, is the Archie Carr 

         23        acquisition.  This is an example of the state's 

         24        concern for protecting nesting habitat for turtles.  

         25        And in making the choice today, we must test the 


          1        public's interest, the public policies, between the 

          2        acquisition of these lands as a very important turtle 

          3        nesting area against the policies inherent in the 

          4        allowing of sovereign owned lands in a highly 

          5        sensitive environmental area for a pier.  

          6              I suggest that when you consider the testimony 

          7        you heard today, the scales tip in favor of not using 

          8        public land in this manner.  

          9              And I would like to make one last point, which 

         10        is more I guess kind of a personal observation.  If 

         11        it doesn't have an impact, please -- or has a 

         12        negative impact -- please attribute it to me.  But it 

         13        seemed to -- and not my client and not these folks, 

         14        these environmentalists who have come up here.  

         15              But yesterday, in talking to the aides, 

         16        somebody said -- I was going to say Jon, but they 

         17        didn't.  They said Moyle, what are you doing up here?  

         18        Where is your developer?  What's going on?  Why 

         19        aren't you representing your developer?  

         20              And that started me thinking.  It made me think 

         21        of a possible analogy that may be helpful as you 

         22        balance.  If I were up here today representing a 

         23        private developer who owned upland, and I were here 

         24        today asking to lease sovereign owned land to build 

         25        an 850 or 890 foot pier in this very same place, a 


          1        pier that was open to the public, where we charged 

          2        admission, where we had a concession on the pier, 

          3        just like the county is proposing, if I were up here 

          4        for that private developer, what would your decision 

          5        be?  

          6              My guess is that I would not get very much 

          7        support for this, and the interesting point is that 

          8        the reason I wouldn't be getting support is the 

          9        environmental risk for putting that kind of pier in 

         10        this area.  

         11              I believe that the very same environmental risk 

         12        exists for the county project, and that your decision 

         13        today should be exactly the same as it would be, I 

         14        believe, if I were representing a private developer.  

         15              Thank you very much for allowing me to present 

         16        your attention.  I will be happy to respond to any 

         17        questions.

         18              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  May I ask Dr. Pritchard, 

         19        Dr. Pritchard, we had a lot of testimony on both 

         20        sides about the density of the nesting and it's been 

         21        characterized as 1100 per mile or it's been 

         22        characterized as one of the heaviest concentration of 

         23        nesting in the world and in Florida.  Since you have 

         24        some credentials as a turtle expert, would you 

         25        characterize the density of this nesting area as 


          1        compared to other parts of Florida?

          2              DR. PRITCHARD:  It would appear to be in the 

          3        top two, as I mentioned; that the Archie Carr Refuge 

          4        lands or the acquired or to be acquired are 

          5        comparable.  

          6              Turtle nesting, especially for loggerheads 

          7        which is a species that doesn't nest every year -- a 

          8        given loggerhead will nest two years later or three 

          9        years later or four years later, so you can get 

         10        fairly striking year to year fluctuations.  You can 

         11        get a year with let us say 500 per mile; you can get 

         12        a year with 1500 per mile.  And we are still not 

         13        quite sure what are the factors that make a good year 

         14        and a bad year.  

         15              But basically, Juno and Jupiter are one of the 

         16        two areas that I would describe as the best 

         17        loggerhead nesting in Florida and are comparable with 

         18        a tiny island off the coast of Arabian peninsular 

         19        called Masira which attracts virtually all the 

         20        loggerheads in the Indian Ocean for reasons we don't 

         21        know.  

         22              So that's where the action is, in those two 

         23        places in Florida.

         24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Dr. Pritchard, you made 

         25        a statement today that this would not be the worst 


          1        thing, this pier would not be the worst thing that 

          2        could happen to turtles, and based on conversations 

          3        that we had in the past, that the impact of the 

          4        bridge or the pier by itself is not that significant, 

          5        not a significant impact.  But your concern is future 

          6        activity, the expansion of activities in that 

          7        particular area, and perhaps even additional piers or 

          8        other requests for that type thing.  

          9              Is that a fair statement of your position?

         10              DR. PRITCHARD:  It's a fair statement, but it's 

         11        important to emphasize that you can't make a decision 

         12        in complete isolation, that there are the trickle 

         13        downs such as I described, what do the people do when 

         14        they leave the pier at closing time?  And I think 

         15        quite a few of them will continue to fish probably 

         16        with lights from the beach itself.  

         17              So you will be encouraging something that's not 

         18        illegal now, but simply the action in having a pier 

         19        there would make it happen to a greater degree and 

         20        cause greater disruption.  

         21              But the thing I would emphasize is the 

         22        piecemeal aspect.  If this decision were to be 

         23        promised -- accompanied by some kind of a promise 

         24        that there will never be anything ever done again to 

         25        develop Juno Beach, that would be great.  But it's 


          1        not being offered.  It's not a real world promise.    

          2                   And there is the important matter of 

          3        precedent.  We allow this, even if it is a Trustees' 

          4        decision which means you don't really have to justify 

          5        your action, it's your consciouses that count.  

          6        Nonetheless, if a comparable question comes up, you 

          7        tend to look for precedent to see what decision was 

          8        made the previous time.  

          9              So it's both the immediate ramifications of 

         10        what will the people do around the pier, what kind of 

         11        physical development may it precipitate in the 

         12        immediate area, and so on.  And as the concept of 

         13        piecemeal bit by bit, nickel by dime, finally losing 

         14        Juno Beach in the decades to come of a key nesting 

         15        ground. 

         16              THE GOVERNOR:  Thank you, sir. 

         17              MR. GREEN:  Carol Roberts and Karen Marcus.     

         18              MS. ROBERTS:  Thank you.  It's a pleasure to 

         19        say hello again to the Governor and the Cabinet.  

         20              I sat here today and I listened to both sides.  

         21        And I do represent citizens of Palm Beach County.  I 

         22        just wonder if we are really talking about 

         23        environmental issues?  

         24              Because most people understand that Palm Beach 

         25        County has not permitted any of those condos.  They 


          1        are permitted by Jupiter.  

          2              Palm Beach County has gone out of its way 

          3        through passing bond issues in order to purchase 

          4        beachfront because we understand the importance of 

          5        sea turtles.  

          6              Palm Beach County feels very strongly, for 

          7        instance, if the Town of Jupiter is really that 

          8        concerned about sea turtles, that they make an offer 

          9        to close their Civic Center which sits on the most 

         10        density populated turtle habitated beach, 1700 nests 

         11        per mile.  It's open unrestricted at night.  It has 

         12        music; it has people and it has lights.  I myself had 

         13        been there later than midnight, but not during turtle 

         14        season because I don't want to contribute to anymore 

         15        problems on beaches.  Yet Jupiter has not offered to 

         16        close that Civic Center.  It's open now and we are in 

         17        the middle of turtle season.  

         18              I guess I would like to say that Jennifer, who 

         19        is 23 years old -- and I just asked her -- has 

         20        wonderful memories, only they are memories of a child 

         21        12 and younger because the old pier unfortunately was 

         22        destroyed in 1984.  It was open at night, unlike what 

         23        she said.  

         24              I'd also like to say that you and I -- I am 

         25        going to be very brief.  You and I sit and represent 


          1        people, you the people of Florida and myself the 

          2        people of Palm Beach County.  We make decisions that 

          3        impact today and impact the future.  I believe in the 

          4        future of Florida, as you do.  And I believe in the 

          5        future leaders of Florida, as I believe in the future 

          6        leaders of Palm Beach County.  I do not think that 

          7        those future leaders, whether they be sitting here in 

          8        your position or sitting in mine, would want to do 

          9        anything to harm Florida or to harm Palm Beach 

         10        County.  

         11              So if you -- and I believe you do -- believe in 

         12        the future of Florida, if you believe that kids and 

         13        people, seniors, ought to have a place to recreate in 

         14        Palm Beach County like they did, and if you truly 

         15        believe that turtles co-existed before 1984 -- I saw 

         16        it, and I'm a little older than Jennifer.  I, too, 

         17        went and took my six kids, mostly to turtle watch 

         18        because we live near the Lake Worth pier and they can 

         19        go fishing off the pier.  But because it was a beach 

         20        that had the greatest amount of turtles, I went there 

         21        many a night to teach my five sons and my daughter 

         22        about marine life.  

         23              And I can tell you I never saw turtles that 

         24        were involved with fishing lines.  I did see young 

         25        people who were able to go to the beach at night, and 


          1        I saw other people on occasion when we did go up 

          2        there during the day who were able to recreate 

          3        safely.  

          4              I think this is all about people and who wants 

          5        whom on their beaches.  I am sorry to say that, but 

          6        that's what I believe.  Because I think if we were 

          7        truly all together on the environment, we would have 

          8        made a lot of other changes not permitting condos,  

          9        closing civic centers.  

         10              Thank you.  

         11              That was a request for your vote.  I just 

         12        wanted you to know that. 

         13              MS. MARCUS:  Hi, my name is Karen Marcus.  I am 

         14        the county commissioner who actually represents this 

         15        district and have been working on siting of this pier 

         16        for the last 10 years.  

         17              I would like to make a few points and see if I 

         18        can respond to some of the comments and information 

         19        that's been presented to you.  

         20              First of all, there is no other site for a 

         21        pier.  Some of the folks came up here and represented 

         22        there are other choices.  There are no other 

         23        choices.  This is it.  If we do not get your 

         24        submerged lands lease, we will not have a pier in 

         25        northern Palm Beach County.  And I think we attempted 


          1        to show many of you that when you were nice enough to 

          2        come on the tour.  

          3              The signatures of the petitions of the people I 

          4        think are very important because I think there has 

          5        been a request to see community support for this pier 

          6        in our community, the over 4,000 signatures in 

          7        support of this pier in that location, with the 

          8        restrictions -- and we made sure that the petition 

          9        stated that -- I think shows overwhelming support.  

         10        And as the elected official who represents not only 

         11        Jupiter but Juno and Tequesta and Lake Park and North 

         12        Palm and Riveria Beach and all the communities to the 

         13        west and unincorporated Palm Beach County, I can tell 

         14        you, as someone who has to stand in front of my 

         15        constituents, that overwhelmingly they support this 

         16        pier.  

         17              Palm Beach County also recognizes our 

         18        responsibility -- and I am pleased to hear we are on 

         19        a worldwide tour of turtle nesting of importance.  We 

         20        have long recognized that, and we have long taken 

         21        objective steps to do turtle protection.  And when we 

         22        -- I listened and we talked about the pier.  And it's 

         23        like one structure, and we talk about Juno Beach 

         24        pier.  But Juno Beach is a big area.  And I think you 

         25        saw that on your tour.  


          1              And Jupiter to the north, where there is even 

          2        higher nesting, is an even bigger area.  

          3              What I would like to describe for you is the 

          4        things that we have done in Palm Beach County that I 

          5        think everybody from the environmental communities 

          6        who are here today that are concerned about what this 

          7        one thing might do, the things that we have done to 

          8        enhance turtle nesting without anybody asking us to 

          9        do it.  

         10              First and foremost, as was referenced in Archie 

         11        Carr being real important, so you are buying it all 

         12        at a huge amount of money so you can protect turtle 

         13        nesting and we are right up there with them.  Palm 

         14        Beach County has bought 300 acres of oceanfront 

         15        property to do exactly the same thing that you were 

         16        doing with Archie Carr.  We are paying the money, we 

         17        are doing it because it's important, and it provides 

         18        recreational benefit to our residents.  

         19              So in that section from Juno to Jupiter, and 

         20        you saw many of the parks, we have done that.  

         21              We are the ones who are willing and agreeing 

         22        and have talked to the Town of Jupiter about spending 

         23        an additional million-five.  They are getting ready 

         24        to do an AIA beautification project, and we like 

         25        that, but we are not going to support doing that 


          1        unless we take the road, move it a little bit over to 

          2        the west.  We are willing to pay for it, so that we 

          3        can rebuild that entire dune line there.  We have 

          4        several blow ups that I think most of you saw.  We 

          5        want to rebuild that.  We want to replant that.  And 

          6        we want to provide dune walkovers.  

          7              That in itself, having that darkness at night 

          8        on the beach for the turtles, I think will enhance in 

          9        allowing that space for turtle nesting.  

         10              I would also like you to know -- and I don't 

         11        know a lot of these people who came here from other 

         12        organizations, other environmental organizations.  I 

         13        know they haven't called me.  I know they haven't 

         14        been in my county that I am aware of.  

         15              The 26 nations that they talked about that 

         16        wrote letters, I am honored.  But I don't know if 

         17        they have been on our beaches and in our community.  

         18        And I would like you to know that our local Audubon 

         19        Society supports this.  That before we ever moved 

         20        forward to issue a request to permit on this, we went 

         21        to local the Audubon and we said:  We know there are 

         22        turtle impacts.  We would like for you to look at the 

         23        site.  We would like for you to tell us if you have a 

         24        problem with this.  

         25              And they went and they spoke with Dr. Pritchard 


          1        who indicated at the time to them that there was not 

          2        a problem, and they came back to us and they said 

          3        this is okay.  We can support this as long as you 

          4        have the conditions.  

          5              And we agree with the conditions.  We went to 

          6        our fishing community and we said if we want to fish 

          7        and we want to protect turtles, here is how we 

          8        balance this.  And they said, fine, we understand 

          9        this.  

         10              This still gives us 365 days out of the year 

         11        that we currently don't have -- and four months -- of 

         12        night fishing which is fine with us, because as you 

         13        can see from the interest of our youth community, 

         14        they are probably the ones and we don't want them out 

         15        there fishing that late at night.  

         16              There was discussion about development could 

         17        potentially happen in the future.  This is the only 

         18        section of development in Palm Beach where we have 

         19        any zoning rights, Palm Beach County.  All other 

         20        zoning rights are either in the Town of Juno or in 

         21        the Town of Jupiter.  They have total control of any 

         22        kind of commercial activity or any other activity 

         23        that would occur along the section of AIA, not Palm 

         24        Beach County.  

         25              In order to work with the communities, we have 


          1        agreed or I have agreed to annex this park into the 

          2        Town of Juno after we have complete construction of 

          3        the pier, hopefully with your support, so that they 

          4        can have then total control.  We would have to go to 

          5        them apply for any permits if we wanted to put any 

          6        type of use, which we have not done in our county 

          7        parks in Palm Beach County at all.  

          8              But they would then have zoning control over 

          9        that.  So we are willing to do that.  

         10              There was discussion about lights on the pier.  

         11        There will be no lights on the pier during turtle 

         12        nesting season.  Even beyond it actually, but during 

         13        the season for sure.  The only light that I think was 

         14        referenced was the coast guard light which is a red 

         15        light which is at the very end of the pier.  And we 

         16        are required to have that.  

         17              Certainly the jetty that was referred to is lit 

         18        up very bright.  We want it to be lit up because we 

         19        don't want the boats running into it, but there were 

         20        no restrictions put on that jetty in terms of clean 

         21        up from monofilament.  I think 200 nests is important 

         22        and that we need to try to protect those also.  

         23              I think I have answered most of the questions 

         24        that I have heard here today.  I want you to know 

         25        that Palm Beach County really takes this very 


          1        serious, too.  I think by the activities and the 

          2        actions that you heard that way precedes any concerns 

          3        have been raised to you today about turtles.  We have 

          4        done more in doing that to protect turtles.  We see 

          5        the balance and as stewards and elected officials 

          6        like you are, we have to make that balance.  

          7              Some of the environmental organizations have 

          8        the luxury of just getting to make an environmental 

          9        recommendation.  

         10              We have to make a balanced decision.  And as 

         11        stewards of our community, we take that very 

         12        serious.  So we believe today we are here protecting 

         13        people, given them access to our wonderful ocean, and 

         14        protecting turtles along the way.  

         15              We would respectfully request your support.  

         16        Thank you.  

         17              MR. GREEN:  Governor, that concludes the 

         18        presentations by the applicant and the opponents.  

         19        Unless you have questions of staff, the question is 

         20        before you.  

         21              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, I have a question 

         22        of DEP.  

         23              Just to come to closure on the issue of the 

         24        restrictions, it is true -- and I understand from the 

         25        county commissioners they believe it's also true, but 


          1        I want to know from you -- that if, in fact, there 

          2        were any changes to any of the restrictions, that it 

          3        would, in fact, have to come back to the board of 

          4        Trustees? 

          5              MR. GREEN:  Ms. Secretary, that is not a 

          6        current condition in the lease.  We can make that a 

          7        condition of the lease, so it's written in the lease 

          8        that any changes or any requests for changes have to 

          9        come back to you.  Yes, we can do that.

         10              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Okay.  Governor, I would 

         11        like to move approval with that stipulation in the 

         12        lease.

         13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second. 

         14              THE GOVERNOR:  So I understand it, you are 

         15        moving approval, but with the stipulation that any 

         16        change in the current restrictions would have to come 

         17        before the Board of Trustees? 

         18              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  That's correct.

         19              THE GOVERNOR:  Could not be changed by the 

         20        county and/or the City of Jupiter if they later 

         21        became the recipient of the bridge.

         22              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  That's correct.

         23              THE GOVERNOR:  And it's seconded.

         24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         25              THE GOVERNOR:  Is there discussion?


          1              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  Governor.  

          2              THE GOVERNOR:  Yes.

          3              COMMISSIONER NELSON:  It comes to the moment of 

          4        voting, and I want to thank all of the people from 

          5        Palm Beach County.  I guess most of us have gone down 

          6        and been out on the beach and seen all of the various 

          7        sites at one time or another.  

          8              And I want to compliment Palm Beach County in 

          9        their aggressive environmental outreach with regard 

         10        to the acquisition of parks.  They're trying to 

         11        preserve a lot of this beach area as public land.  

         12        And I have some reason, some history for saying 

         13        that.  

         14              As most of you know, I had the privilege of 

         15        serving in the Congress for 12 years representing the 

         16        11th Congressional district, which includes the 

         17        Archie Carr Preserve and, in fact, was instrumental 

         18        in getting the first federal appropriations for 

         19        that.  

         20              Now, my vote will be against the pier.  And the 

         21        reason it will be is that we have clearly had the 

         22        testimony here today that this is one of the two 

         23        highest density nesting areas in Florida, and 

         24        combined with that island in the Indian ocean, in the 

         25        world.  And the other one is in my old Congressional 


          1        district -- South Brevard County and Indian River 

          2        County.  And we committed a lot of resources to 

          3        that.  

          4              From that initial appropriation that I got in 

          5        the appropriations bill in Washington, and I might 

          6        say to his credit, he Sheparded it through, my senior 

          7        senator, through the appropriations bill and in the 

          8        Senate.  But the combination of money spent for the 

          9        acquisition of lands for the Archie Carr Preserve to 

         10        date is about $96 million with another 21 million 

         11        more to complete the project, or about 117 million of 

         12        which we are saying that the public policy of 

         13        protecting these high density turtle areas are so 

         14        important that we would spend that kind of public 

         15        resource.  

         16              And the testimony that we have had here today 

         17        is this is another high density concentration, so 

         18        much so, I am quoting from figures from the DEP from 

         19        Mike Sole, the Bureau of Protected Species.  We had 

         20        testimony here that it was about 1100 per mile at 

         21        Juno Beach.  Mr. Sole's figures are a little bit 

         22        less.  He has 523 loggerhead nests in the 8.34 

         23        kilometer stretch of beach as compared to his figures 

         24        of 418 loggerhead nests in the 40 miles of the Archie 

         25        Carr Beach in Indian River and Brevard.  


          1              So the density, according to DEP's statistics, 

          2        here at Juno Beach are even a lot greater than at 

          3        Archie Carr.  

          4              If the figure that was presented to us, and not 

          5        contradicted, by the gentleman from the environmental 

          6        section of Palm Beach County is accurate, that there 

          7        are 1100 per mile, that is one nest for every five 

          8        feet, or a span of space like this head table which 

          9        is about 30 feet would have 6 nests.  

         10              Now that is a high density concentration.  And 

         11        it seems to me that where I have to come down when 

         12        you balance interest against interest is if this is 

         13        one of the highest concentration areas in the world, 

         14        then the public policy that I will have to declare 

         15        will be that we should not disturb that nesting 

         16        area.  Thank you, Governor.

         17              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Like everyone sitting up 

         18        here, I think we've got an incredible number of 

         19        hours, important hours, invested on this subject as 

         20        do the members of our staff.  We met with people on 

         21        both sides of the issue, people without any 

         22        particular vested interest.  We have reviewed 

         23        statistics, reviewed charts, reviewed graphs, had 

         24        telephone calls, faxes, editorials written, public 

         25        commentary.  I think we all weighed in on this issue 


          1        in prior meetings, and I think done our best to be 

          2        open minded, and will be, I am sure, in the vote.     

          3                   But before the vote takes place, I think 

          4        it's important to say -- and I have done my share of 

          5        lobbying in my days, so I am a little familiar as to 

          6        how it works.  But I also know that this is not, as 

          7        someone characterized it, a vote of sea creatures 

          8        versus people.  It's not a vote for or against 

          9        fishermen.  I am one.  It's not a vote for or against 

         10        children.  I know a little something about them as 

         11        well.  It's not a vote against the elderly, I've 

         12        heard mentioned, the poor, handicapped.  It's not 

         13        even a vote for or against the pier, I believe.  

         14              I believe what the essence of the vote is going 

         15        to be about is location, because in talking with 

         16        staff and others, I don't believe I have heard anyone 

         17        who suggests that Palm Beach County doesn't want or 

         18        need a pier.  

         19              But in hearing and talking to and with and 

         20        listening to people on this subject, I think it does 

         21        boil down to an issue of location.  And even in 

         22        listening to Eleanor Fletcher, who is the turtle lady 

         23        -- and remember that I lived down in that area, so I 

         24        know something about that area, visited the site 

         25        again myself.  Even though I am very, very familiar 


          1        with it, have been on that beach many times, I think 

          2        if we can eliminate from all of the debate and all of 

          3        the discussions, some of the characteristics that 

          4        others have tried to bring to it, I think it really 

          5        does boil down to an issue of location, and whether 

          6        we agree or disagree with the location of the 

          7        proposed pier.  

          8              Thank you, Governor. 

          9              THE GOVERNOR:  Further discussion?  Well, I 

         10        intend to vote for the pier.  And I have listened to 

         11        discussion.  It's certainly a close question.  I know 

         12        of no county in the state that has protected the 

         13        environment more than Palm Beach County.  I know of 

         14        no -- and if you think back of all of the different 

         15        areas, I know of no county which has tougher 

         16        environmental standards than Palm Beach County.  

         17              I am persuaded that the pier itself, there is a 

         18        drop off from the road and the place, people will not 

         19        be even walking down the dunes.  They will be -- the 

         20        pier itself will be extended from the road level 

         21        which is considerably higher.  

         22              I don't think that the pier will disturb the 

         23        nesting habitat.  

         24              Is there going to be some possible change?  

         25        Given there will be predators, fish around the end of 


          1        the pier, given that there will be some increased 

          2        use, I think there certainly could be some.  

          3              But I think you do have to weigh, and this is a 

          4        high nesting area.  It's a high children's area.  And 

          5        I am thinking about if there are 1100 nests, how many 

          6        children are there per mile?  

          7              And I listened to whether those kids are going 

          8        to get a chance to go out and use that pier, whether 

          9        a lot of other people are going to get a chance to 

         10        fish there.  

         11              We know there was a pier there before.  It was 

         12        open at night.  And while we can question as to 

         13        whether there was some damage, most people enjoyed 

         14        the use of that pier, it seems to be it was well used 

         15        at that time.  

         16              I think on balance, trying to see what the 

         17        handicaps will be and even listening to some of the 

         18        testimony that we are more worried about what happens 

         19        if you change from this, well, you can have that 

         20        about any statement that you make at any time about 

         21        anything.  

         22              With the condition that we placed in here, that 

         23        any change would come back to the Board of Trustees 

         24        -- I trust it will be some future board, I won't be 

         25        here -- but I feel satisfied with that, that this is 


          1        something on balance the people of Palm Beach County 

          2        and the children of Palm Beach County are going to be 

          3        served by this pier, and that we can and are and 

          4        have, as the Board of Trustees, as county 

          5        commissioners or other working hard and members of 

          6        Congress to protect turtle habitat.  I think that's 

          7        essential for Florida, but I think our children and 

          8        people habitat and their use and recreational value 

          9        is important as well.

         10              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, one other quick 

         11        statement is that I think General Milligan, when he 

         12        asked of Mr. Pritchard the issue of if it were just 

         13        specifically this pier versus maybe ancillary usages, 

         14        and I think with the confirmation that they will in 

         15        fact have to come back to this Board of Trustees if 

         16        there was a change at all in the use of that property 

         17        is also -- and could be very significant and I think 

         18        that question brought that to mind.  

         19              And I think there is one other issue, and I 

         20        think that's one of home rule, and the fact that 

         21        Commissioner Roberts and Marcus and Warren Newell who 

         22        are, in fact, elected officials there, are going to 

         23        be held responsible for this pier, just as we are.  

         24        But frankly, I believe very strongly that this is an 

         25        issue where local officials need to be held 


          1        responsible.  

          2              And frankly, the conditions that are put on 

          3        this pier are pretty onerous.  In fact, I am quite 

          4        surprised that they would want to place the pier 

          5        where it is.  And obviously there aren't lots of 

          6        other locations for this pier, or I don't think they 

          7        would subject themselves to those sorts of 

          8        stipulations like closing it down for a good part of 

          9        the year.  

         10              So I think that it probably is the best of all 

         11        worlds.  And frankly, I think that we ought to give 

         12        the county what they want. 

         13              THE GOVERNOR:  Any further discussion?  Call 

         14        the roll, if you will, please ma'am.

         15              THE REPORTER: Commissioner Brogan.

         16              THE GOVERNOR:  This will take five affirmative 

         17        votes.

         18              THE REPORTER: Commissioner Brogan.

         19              COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I am going to vote 

         20        against the submerged land lease in this particular 

         21        location.

         22              THE REPORTER:  Commission Crawford.

         23              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yes.

         24              THE REPORTER: Commissioner Nelson.

         25              COMMISSIONER NELSON: No.

          1              THE REPORTER:  Comptroller Milligan.

          2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.

          3              THE REPORTER:  General Butterworth.

          4              GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes.

          5              THE REPORTER:  Secretary Mortham.

          6              SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Yes.

          7              THE REPORTER:  Governor Chiles.

          8              THE GOVERNOR.  Yes.

          9              By your vote, you have approved the pier.

         10              MR. GREEN:  That completes the agenda.  

         11              THE GOVERNOR:  All right, we stand adjourned.

         12              (The Trustees of the Internal Improvement Trust 

         13        Fund was concluded.)














          1                   CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER



          4   STATE OF FLORIDA:

          5   COUNTY OF LEON:

          6            I, SANDRA L. DiBENEDETTO-NARGIZ, do hereby 

          7   certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before 

          8   me at the time and place therein designated; that my 

          9   shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my 

         10   supervision; and the foregoing pages numbered 1 through    

         11   120 are a true and correct record of the aforesaid 

         12   proceedings.

         13            I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

         14   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

         15   relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or 

         16   financially interested in the foregoing action.

         17            DATED THIS 21st day of June 1996.



         20                             ____________________________       
                                        SANDRA L. DiBENEDETTO-NARGIZ
         21                             100 SALEM COURT
                                        TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA  32301
         22                             (904) 878-2221