Cabinet
Affairs |
1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC
6 AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
7 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
8 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
9 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
10 ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
11 IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
12
The above agencies came to be heard before
13 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
14 The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
October 24, 1995, commencing at approximately
15 9:40 a.m.
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17
18 Reported by:
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
20 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
21 the State of Florida at Large
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
904/878-2221
25 1-800/934-9090
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
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BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
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SANDRA B. MORTHAM
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
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BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN
Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 24, 1995
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 COMMISSION ON MINORITY
ECONOMIC AND BUSINESS
4 DEVELOPMENT:
(Presented by Tereasa P. Stewart,
5 Interim Executive Administrator)
6 1 Deferred 10
2 Approved 10
7 3 Approved 11
4 Approved 11
8 5 Approved 12
6 Deferred 13
9
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
10 (Presented by Ash Williams, Jr.,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 14
12 2 Approved 14
3 Approved 14
13 4 Approved 15
5 Approved 15
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
15 (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
Director)
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1 Approved 16
17 2 Approved 16
18 INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION:
(Presented by John Douglas,
19 Interim Executive Director)
20 1 Approved 17
2 Approved 17
21
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
22 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 19
24 2 Approved 19
3 Approved 19
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 24, 1995
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
4 (Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
Deputy Commissioner)
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1 Approved 21
6 2 Approved 21
3 Approved 47
7 4 Approved 47
5 Deferred 49
8 6 Deferred 49
7 Deferred 49
9 8 Deferred 49
9 Deferred 49
10 10 Deferred 49
11 Deferred 49
11 12 Deferred 49
13 Deferred 49
12 14 Deferred 49
15 Approved 49
13 16 Approved 51
17 Approved 51
14 18 Approved 51
19 Approved 52
15 20 Approved 52
21 Approved 52
16 22 Approved 53
17 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
18 Secretary)
19 1 Approved 54
2 A. Approved 54
20 2 B. Approved 54
3 Approved 55
21 4 Approved 55
5 Approved 55
22 6 Approved 56
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
October 24, 1995
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
4 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
Secretary)
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1 Approved 57
6 2 Approved 111
7 BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
8 TRUST FUND:
(Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
9 Secretary)
10 1 Approved 112
2 Approved 112
11 Substitute 3 Deferred 112
Substitute 4 Deferred 113
12 5 Approved 113
6 Approved 113
13 7 Approved 113
8 Approved 114
14 Substitute 9 Withdrawn 114
10 Approved 114
15 11 Approved 114
12 Approved 115
16
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 116
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
10:10 2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:12 a.m.)
10:10 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now we'll go to the
10:10 4 Commission on Minority Economic and Business
10:10 5 Development.
10:10 6 MS. STEWART: Good morning.
10:10 7 The first item is final agency action on an
10:10 8 administrative hearing in the case of Air X
10:10 9 Service Corporation of the denial of application
10:10 10 for certification as a Minority Business
10:10 11 Enterprise.
10:10 12 Governor Chiles, before action is taken
10:10 13 today, there is a representative here from the
10:10 14 Air X Service Corporation who would like to
10:10 15 speak, and her name is Ms. Olga Fernandez. She
10:10 16 is representing Air X.
10:11 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay.
10:11 18 MS. FERNANDEZ: Good morning.
10:11 19 My name is Olga Fernandez, and I'm here on
10:11 20 behalf of the applicant to urge you to reject
10:11 21 the final order dismissing this case.
10:11 22 Air X Service Corporation is an
10:11 23 air conditioning service company in business
10:11 24 since 1992. In 1993, they applied for their
10:11 25 certification as an MBE with the State. They're
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:11 1 certified by Dade County, by West Palm Beach
10:11 2 County, and by Broward County.
10:11 3 Their certification was initially denied
10:11 4 because the State felt it didn't have enough
10:11 5 evidence that the two minority Hispanic brothers
10:11 6 had enough control and supervision of the
10:11 7 business. Later, through depositions and
10:11 8 discovery, these facts were determined.
10:11 9 And then at the last minute, right before
10:11 10 the final administrative hearing, the State
10:11 11 raised a new issue, and that was a new statute,
10:11 12 a statute that requires owners to be licensed,
10:11 13 to have their own license, in a particular
10:11 14 business.
10:11 15 And our argument is, and our position in
10:12 16 which we've cited two cases that hold that way
10:12 17 is, that this new statute does not apply
10:12 18 retroactively to the time that the application
10:12 19 was filed by Air X Service Corporation.
10:12 20 And we urge you to please reject this final
10:12 21 order. Based on those grounds, it would be
10:12 22 unfair and illogical to do so.
10:12 23 An example of that would be if somebody,
10:12 24 for example, filed suit today, and two years
10:12 25 later there was a new law, and that new law --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:12 1 the new -- imposing new obligations, would be
10:12 2 made to apply to this lawsuit. And then
10:12 3 two years later down the line while the lawsuit
10:12 4 is still in -- in progress, a new law would come
10:12 5 in, and that would just create lots of chaos, it
10:12 6 doesn't make any sense.
10:12 7 Please, we ask you to allow this case to go
10:12 8 to a final administrative hearing, and to reject
10:12 9 this order of dismissal.
10:13 10 Thank you.
10:13 11 MS. STEWART: She's trying to win.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's a pretty good
13 trick.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move the
10:13 15 staff recommendation, Governor.
10:13 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Staff recommendation has
10:13 17 been moved.
10:13 18 Is there a second?
10:13 19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Could we hear a
10:13 20 little bit about the other side?
10:13 21 MS. STEWART: Sir?
10:13 22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Could we hear the
10:13 23 other side, I mean, a little more --
10:13 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Could we --
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- a little
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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1 rebuttal?
10:13 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- hear a little bit more
10:13 3 about why -- the staff recommendation.
10:13 4 MS. STEWART: Yes, sir.
10:13 5 The hearing officer concluded that there
10:13 6 were not enough disputed facts for this case to
10:13 7 go forth. Also, the issue of licenses is
10:14 8 addressed in Florida Statute.
10:14 9 Even though the application was pending at
10:14 10 the time the statute became law, it was
10:14 11 determined that the law applied to this
10:14 12 license. So, therefore, a formal hearing was
10:14 13 not given to Air Service -- Air X Service
10:14 14 Corporation.
10:14 15 The -- I believe the staff have seen the
10:14 16 recommended final order that the hearing officer
10:14 17 gave us on this issue. So we do not feel that
10:14 18 there are enough disputed facts for this to go
10:14 19 forward.
10:14 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So the issue
10:14 21 is not just on the licensing then, it's more
10:14 22 than that.
10:14 23 MS. STEWART: It's -- it's licensing.
10:14 24 It's -- they're in the air conditioning
10:14 25 service. They have no license, and they have no
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:14 1 federal certification from EPA to perform this
10:14 2 service.
10:14 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But as soon
10:14 4 as they get that, they can -- they can then
10:14 5 apply again.
10:15 6 MS. STEWART: Yes, sir.
10:15 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: We have a motion.
10:15 8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I'd suggest
10:15 9 we defer this issue.
10:15 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Substitute to defer.
10:15 11 Is there a second to that?
10:15 12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:15 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
10:15 14 Without objection, it's deferred.
10:15 15 MS. STEWART: Our second action -- our
10:15 16 second item is final agency action on
10:15 17 administrative hearing in the case of Florida
10:15 18 Moving System, Inc., on denial of application
10:15 19 for certification as a Minority Business
10:15 20 Enterprise.
10:15 21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:15 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:15 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:15 24 Without objection, it's approved.
10:15 25 MS. STEWART: Item 3, final agency action
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:15 1 on an administrative hearing in the case of
10:15 2 General Contractors and Construction Management,
10:15 3 Inc., of the denial of application for
10:15 4 certification as a Minority Business Enterprise.
10:15 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:16 6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:16 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion and
10:16 8 second?
10:16 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
10:16 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, it's
10:16 12 approved.
10:16 13 MS. STEWART: Item 4, final agency action
10:16 14 on an administrative hearing in the case of
10:16 15 Larsen Communication and Professional Services,
10:16 16 Inc., of the denial of application for
10:16 17 certification as a Minority Business Enterprise.
10:16 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:16 19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:16 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:16 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:16 22 Without objection, it's approved.
10:16 23 MS. STEWART: Final agency action on an
10:16 24 admin--
10:16 25 Item 5, final agency action on an
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:16 1 administrative hearing in the case of
10:16 2 Met Construction, Inc., of the denial of
10:16 3 application for certification as a Minority
10:16 4 Business Enterprise.
10:16 5 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:16 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:16 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:16 8 Without objection, it's approved.
10:16 9 MS. STEWART: Item 6, final agency action
10:16 10 on an administrative hearing in the case of
10:16 11 T-B Services Group, Inc., of the denial of
10:16 12 application for certification as a Minority
10:16 13 Business Enterprise.
10:16 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
10:17 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
10:17 16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- question.
10:17 17 Is this particular item very similar to the
10:17 18 item number 1?
10:17 19 MS. STEWART: Yes --
10:17 20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is it not predicated on
10:17 21 the exact same issue?
10:17 22 MS. STEWART: Yes, it is, it's license.
10:17 23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I'd like to
10:17 24 move deferral of item 6, too.
10:17 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
October 24, 1995
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10:17 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded to
10:17 2 defer. Is there --
10:17 3 Without objection, deferred.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That was the
5 last item.
10:17 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh, that was the last
10:17 7 item? All right.
8 (The Commission on Minority Economic and
9 Business Development Agenda was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
October 24, 1995
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10:17 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
10:17 2 Administration.
10:17 3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move the minutes.
10:18 4 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10:18 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded on the
10:18 6 minutes.
10:18 7 Without objection, they're approved.
10:18 8 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 2 is a fiscal
10:18 9 sufficiency for the Florida Housing Finance
10 Agency.
10:18 11 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
10:18 12 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:18 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:18 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:18 15 Without objection, it's approved.
10:18 16 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 3 is the fiscal
10:18 17 sufficiency for the Florida Housing Finance
10:18 18 Agency.
10:18 19 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:18 20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
10:18 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:18 22 Without objection, it's approved.
10:18 23 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 4 is a fiscal
10:18 24 sufficiency for the Florida Housing Finance
10:18 25 Agency.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
October 24, 1995
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10:18 1 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:18 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:18 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:18 4 Without objection, it's approved.
10:18 5 Bond Finance.
10:18 6 TREASURER NELSON: One more.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh. Go ahead.
10:18 8 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 5, reports from the
10:18 9 Executive Director, the Investment Performance
10:18 10 and Fund Balance Analysis for the month of
10:18 11 September '95.
10:18 12 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:18 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
10:18 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:18 15 Without objection, that's approved.
10:18 16 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
17 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
18 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
October 24, 1995
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10:18 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Bond Finance.
10:18 2 MR. WATKINS: Two items for your
10:18 3 consideration this morning.
10:18 4 Item 1 is approval of the minutes from the
10:18 5 October 12 --
10:18 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So move.
10:18 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's moved and seconded.
10:18 8 Without objection, the minutes are
9 approved.
10:19 10 MR. WATKINS: Item number 2 is a resolution
10:19 11 authorizing the negotiated sale of Multifamily
10:19 12 Housing Revenue Bonds for the projects specified
10:19 13 in items A through C for and on behalf of the
10:19 14 Florida Housing Finance Agency at their request.
10:19 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:19 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:19 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:19 18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
20 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
October 24, 1995
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10:19 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Information Resource
10:19 2 Commission.
3 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
10:19 4 MR. DOUGLAS: Good morning, Governor,
10:19 5 members of the Cabinet. Two items this morning.
10:19 6 Item number 1 is approval of the minutes of
10:19 7 the meeting on September 28th, 1995.
10:19 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
10:19 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:19 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:19 11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. DOUGLAS: Item number 2 is the approval
10:19 13 of award of a contract to Coopers and Lybrand
10:19 14 for $499,900 to acquire project monitoring
10:19 15 services pursuant to Section 282.322,
10:19 16 Florida Statutes, for monitoring designated
10:19 17 projects identified in the General
10:19 18 Appropriations Act.
10:19 19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:19 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:19 21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10:19 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:19 23 Without objection, it's approved.
10:19 24 MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, Governor.
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
October 24, 1995
18
1 (The Information Resource Commission Agenda
2 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
October 24, 1995
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10:20 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
10:20 2 MR. FUCHS: Good morning.
10:20 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
10:20 4 MR. FUCHS: Item 1 is request for approval
10:20 5 of minutes of the September 28th meeting.
10:20 6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:20 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:20 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:20 9 Without objection, minutes are approved.
10:20 10 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is a request for
10:20 11 approval to amend our rule on the Minority
10:20 12 Business Enterprise Procurement Program.
10:20 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:20 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:20 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:20 16 Without objection, it's approved.
10:20 17 MR. FUCHS: Item 3 is a request for
10:20 18 authority to enter into contracts between the
10:20 19 Department of Revenue and eight certified public
10:20 20 accountant firms for tax compliance audits.
10:20 21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So move.
10:20 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:20 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:20 24 Without objection, it's approved.
10:20 25 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
October 24, 1995
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1 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
2 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:20 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Education.
10:20 2 MR. BEDFORD: Good morning,
10:20 3 Governor Chiles, members of the State Board of
10:20 4 Education.
10:20 5 Item 1, minutes of the meeting held
10:20 6 September 14th, 1995.
10:20 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:20 8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:20 9 THE COURT: Moved and seconded.
10:21 10 Without objection, it's approved.
10:21 11 MR. BEDFORD: Item 2, minutes of the
10:21 12 meeting held on August 22nd, 1995. This is an
10:21 13 item deferred from the October 12th Cabinet
10:21 14 meeting.
10:21 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:21 16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:21 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:21 18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. BEDFORD: Item 3 is the annual report
10:21 20 of the Florida Education and Employment Council
10:21 21 for Women and Girls. We have with us coming
10:21 22 forward at this time, Colonel Ron Joe. And he
10:21 23 will make a presentation for your information.
10:21 24 Colonel Joe, welcome.
10:21 25 COLONEL JOE: Good morning, Governor,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:21 1 members of the Board.
10:21 2 It's a pleasure to be here. I'm Colonel
10:21 3 Ron Joe. I'm assigned to the only -- to the
10:21 4 Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute.
10:21 5 It's located at Patrick Air Force Base. We
10:21 6 train equal opportunity advisors for the
10:21 7 Department of Defense.
10:21 8 It's a pleasure to be on this Board at the
10:21 9 appointment of Commissioner Brogan. I have with
10:21 10 me Dr. Steve Sorg, who is a member of the Board,
10:21 11 will come up to --
10:21 12 Steve, stand up so we can see you, please.
10:22 13 And Dr. Carol Darling, who is the Executive
10:22 14 Director for the Board.
10:22 15 We'd like to do three things this morning:
10:22 16 First of all, give you a brief history of
10:22 17 the Board, the Council, and then talk to you
10:22 18 about the 1995 annual report. And then make a
10:22 19 petition to the Board about the future of the
10:22 20 Council.
10:22 21 We'd like to thank Commissioner Brogan, for
10:22 22 the Commission for giving us the life, for the
10:22 23 financing, for the support. We came to
10:22 24 Commissioner Brogan with this report just two to
10:22 25 three weeks ago. And gave an initial report to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:22 1 him, and asked for his support to be here today
10:22 2 to present this report to the Cabinet.
10:22 3 I would now like to turn the podium over
10:22 4 to Dr. Steve Sorg, who will give you a review
10:23 5 and the history of the Council.
10:23 6 DR. SORG: Good morning.
10:23 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
10:23 8 DR. SORG: I will make the history brief,
10:23 9 because I think the most important part of this
10:23 10 is the presentation of our sixth annual report.
10:23 11 The Council -- the Florida Education
10:23 12 Employment Council for Women and Girls was
10:23 13 formulated in 1989 by Commissioner of Education,
10:23 14 Betty Castor.
10:23 15 It has had the purpose of advising the
10:23 16 Commissioner of Education, through the Division
10:23 17 of Vocational Education, on matters related to
10:23 18 the equity in the education or employment of
10:23 19 women and girls, and training them for
10:23 20 employment.
10:23 21 All members have been appointed by the
10:23 22 Commissioner of Education. And the group is a
10:23 23 very diverse group in regards to race, gender,
10:23 24 ethnicity. It also represents a wide range of
10:23 25 groups representing Florida business, industry,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:23 1 trade associations, public agencies, education,
10:23 2 advisory committees, and educational
10:23 3 institutions.
10:24 4 One of the purposes that the council has
10:24 5 served is to provide for the conduct of
6 statewide needs assessments as prescribed by the
10:24 7 Carl Perkins Act or the State Equity
10:24 8 Administrator.
10:24 9 Now, we meet three to four times a year.
10:24 10 Two of those meetings have been public meetings
10:24 11 held around the state, soliciting information
10:24 12 from lay citizens, advocacy groups, and others
10:24 13 related to education and employment
10:24 14 opportunities for women and girls.
10:24 15 One of the things that we have done is to
10:24 16 produce an annual report each year, and this
10:24 17 year the sixth annual report is the topic of
10:24 18 interest.
10:24 19 We have done numerous things in the past.
10:24 20 The annual reports have been presented here on
10:24 21 several occasions, and the Commissioner has all
10:24 22 of those.
10:24 23 Last year, the grants that we hold at the
10:24 24 University of Central Florida to administer this
10:24 25 council conducted statewide educational needs
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10:24 1 assessments for victims of domestic violence,
10:24 2 and it won a Governor's award last year for
10:25 3 prevention of domestic violence, and we were
10:25 4 pleased to receive that.
10:25 5 This report is kind of an extension of
10:25 6 that, and we at this time would like to present
10:25 7 to you the sixth annual report.
10:25 8 Thank you.
10:25 9 COLONEL JOE: Governor, members of the
10:25 10 Cabinet, I would hope that you have a copy of
10:25 11 this report at your desk. If possible, I'd like
10:25 12 to go through it with you as a means of
10:25 13 presenting it.
10:25 14 On page 2 of that report, which is the
10:25 15 contents, we have set the report up and looked
10:25 16 at the issues of teen pregnancy in the state of
10:25 17 Florida. We feel that it is an issue that is of
10:25 18 importance to the citizens of this Florida --
10:25 19 for the state of Florida for a number of
10:25 20 reasons.
10:25 21 But as you can see from looking at the
10:25 22 contents, we looked at the issues related to
10:25 23 teenage pregnancy. We then looked at programs
10:25 24 for the prevention of teenage pregnancy. We
10:25 25 looked at programs for parents and parenting as
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10:26 1 pertained to teenage pregnancy.
10:26 2 We then looked at legal issues pertaining
10:26 3 to this problem, and then there are a number of
10:26 4 appendices beginning with the recommendations
10:26 5 from the report in which there are 26
10:26 6 recommendations.
10:26 7 We constructed the report so that there are
10:26 8 recommendations at the end of each chapter. So,
10:26 9 for example, teenage pregnancy and parenthood,
10:26 10 the issues, there are then recommendations at
10:26 11 the end of the issues portion as well.
10:26 12 The report will not allow me to obviously
10:26 13 do it -- every issue in detail. So what I will
10:26 14 try to do is highlight and discuss with you some
10:26 15 pertinent points as I go through it.
10:26 16 The objective of the report was threefold:
10:26 17 We first of all wanted to compile and synthesize
10:26 18 information on teenage pregnancy. There was a
10:26 19 lot of information out there, but we thought
10:26 20 that we could do a service for the state by
10:26 21 doing that.
10:27 22 Secondly, we wanted to educate and inform
10:27 23 Florida's policymakers and its citizens of the
10:27 24 financial and the societal cost that teenage
10:27 25 pregnancy has for our state, our nation, for the
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10:27 1 teenage mother, for the parents where both
10:27 2 parents are involved, and for our state.
10:27 3 And then finally, we wanted to provide some
10:27 4 recommendations that we would hope that you
10:27 5 would agree to act on for us, and, therefore,
10:27 6 make a real difference in our state on the issue
10:27 7 of teen pregnancy.
10:27 8 This first slide provides you some
10:27 9 information, if you will. Seventeen thousand
10:27 10 live births in the state of Florida in 1994.
10:27 11 You can see there where Florida ranks. We
10:27 12 believe that the consequences of early
10:27 13 childbearing is devastating for teen mothers.
10:28 14 Some of the young girls that we ran into as
10:28 15 members of this committee as we visited
10:28 16 throughout your state, and our own individual
10:28 17 areas, to talk to young girls who were -- who
10:28 18 were pregnant and who were mothers, was
10:28 19 absolutely devastating to see ten year old,
10:28 20 twelve year old, fourteen year old girls who are
10:28 21 themselves kids and children, who are now
10:28 22 saddled with children to try and raise.
10:28 23 I'd like to ask you to turn to page 8 and
10:28 24 page 9 of your report. And look at the second
10:28 25 column on page 8 where it says the cost of
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:28 1 teenage pregnancy and parenthood, and the
10:28 2 economic costs.
10:28 3 Children who have babies early do not
10:28 4 complete education, do not work themselves
10:28 5 through to a job, immediately have less income
10:28 6 for life than those who are able to delay
10:29 7 childbearing to later on.
10:29 8 It gives you the figures there on the
10:29 9 median income of a female headed household under
10:29 10 twenty-five years of age. And it says that it's
10:29 11 $4,243 in 1989.
10:29 12 We feel that -- the reports say that we
10:29 13 spend 1.1 billion dollars on the children that
10:29 14 were born to teen parents in 1992 by the time
10:29 15 they have reached the age of twenty-five.
10:29 16 Now, in 1992, there were 17,158 children
10:29 17 born to teen parents; roughly 17,000 in '93; and
10:30 18 17,000 in '94. If you just add those
10:30 19 three years up alone, we're talking about
10:30 20 51,965 children born to teen parents. At an
10:30 21 average cost of, if you will, 1.1 billion
10:30 22 dollars by the time that we can get them to
10:30 23 adulthood and off of dependency for state
10:30 24 programs, the economic costs alone say that we
10:30 25 ought to do what we can to try and provide for a
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10:30 1 prevention, if you will, of teen pregnancy in
10:30 2 our state.
10:30 3 The recommendations -- one other point.
10:30 4 I'm sorry. Would you turn to page 14. And then
10:30 5 we'll move to recommendations.
10:30 6 Page 14 says that there is a significant
10:30 7 correlation -- that's on the right-hand side at
10:30 8 the bottom of the page, and it's in bold
10:30 9 letters.
10:30 10 There is a significant correlation between
10:30 11 child and sexual abuse and teenage pregnancy.
10:30 12 And one report indicates that 66 percent of the
10:31 13 young women surveyed who became pregnant were
10:31 14 sexually abused. And so there is a tremendous
10:31 15 linkage to this issue and to this problem, and
10:31 16 deserves a look. And if there's anything we can
10:31 17 do in the state of Florida, we'd like to do
10:31 18 that.
10:31 19 And now the recommendations that go along
10:31 20 with the teen pregnancy and parenthood issues.
10:31 21 I will let you read them. If you have
10:31 22 questions -- just comment on one. And that is
10:31 23 that we would like to recommend the appointment
10:31 24 of a council, a statewide council, to look at
10:31 25 the initiatives -- to look at initiatives, to
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10:31 1 see how as a state we could pull together,
10:31 2 community, schools, and otherwise to see if
10:31 3 there's something that we can do about -- about
10:31 4 this problem.
10:31 5 The next portion of the report talks about
10:31 6 programs for the prevention of teenage
10:31 7 pregnancy. We think that prevention is a real
10:32 8 crux of this problem. If we can prevent this
10:32 9 problem, then, of course, we can -- we can do
10:32 10 well to stop the cost in terms of dollars; the
10:32 11 societal cost; the cost to the parents; and,
10:32 12 of course, the cost to the children.
10:32 13 I'd like to direct your attention to
10:32 14 page 19, if you will. At the top of the page
10:32 15 there, it says that there are several decision
10:32 16 points at which preventive programs can enter to
10:32 17 make a difference. These decision points
10:32 18 represent where young teens first make the
10:32 19 decision to engage in sexual activity, and then
10:32 20 the decision to get -- engage in unprotected
10:32 21 sexual activity, and then make the choice to
10:32 22 keep the baby.
10:32 23 And what preventive programs can do is to
10:32 24 try and convince, first of all, young teens to
10:32 25 abstain from sex, to not have sex-- sexual
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10:32 1 intercourse. But then to go on and admit that
10:33 2 once they do become sexually active, once they
10:33 3 are the parents of children as teens, then we
10:33 4 should do what we can do to prevent second
10:33 5 pregnancies, because these persons become, in
10:33 6 many instances, wards of the state, they go on
10:33 7 to the welfare cycle, and it's -- and it's
10:33 8 necessary to break that cycle.
10:33 9 Good programs for prevention of teen
10:33 10 pregnancy involve parents, they involve peer
10:33 11 educators, they divide -- they involve
10:33 12 developing and improving the self-esteem of the
10:33 13 persons that -- these young teenagers who are
10:33 14 involved.
10:33 15 We think that schools should be involved,
10:33 16 we don't think that schools have all of the
10:33 17 answers to these situations, and, of course,
10:33 18 situations where schools and communities and
10:33 19 parents are involved we think are most
10:33 20 productive.
10:33 21 The recommendations reference this program
10:34 22 for the prevention of teen pregnancy are shown
10:34 23 here.
10:34 24 Next we'd like to look at some goals for
10:34 25 programs of pregnant and parenting teens.
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10:34 1 Once these young teens have children, it is
10:34 2 so important for us as a state to provide
10:34 3 programs for them that will allow them to get
10:34 4 through school so that they can get a high wage
10:34 5 job and can be productive and not spend the rest
10:34 6 of their lives in a welfare cycle, and as wards
10:34 7 of the states -- of the state.
10:34 8 The risks, as you can see here, are just
10:35 9 absolutely horrible. What happens to teenage
10:35 10 parents is that they don't go to school, they
10:35 11 finish -- they don't finish school, they fail at
10:35 12 school, they don't get employed, they risk
10:35 13 poverty. One of the quickest signs or one of
10:35 14 the clear indicators of teenage pregnancy is
10:35 15 situations where -- where there is poverty.
10:35 16 One of the stories that -- that I ran into
10:35 17 as we walked around and looked at this is a
10:35 18 young man in my county who has reported as
10:35 19 somewhere in the neighborhood of nineteen
10:35 20 children fathered in our vicinity.
10:35 21 I met a young lady who fathered four of his
10:35 22 children who related to me that she knew the
10:35 23 mother of three of his other children. And I
10:35 24 say, why should I pay taxes so that someone
10:35 25 who's about thirty something can have children
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10:36 1 with a fourteen year old child; and as a state,
10:36 2 we have done nothing to him, and we've done
10:36 3 nothing to stop that process from occurring?
10:36 4 We -- we need to do something to break that
10:36 5 cycle.
10:36 6 I talked to a young lady who was pregnant,
10:36 7 and she was the first one that I ran into,
10:36 8 because most times you say young girls have
10:36 9 children by accident, or -- or they don't have
10:36 10 the facts.
10:36 11 But here was a young girl who had a child
10:36 12 because she wanted to. And her reason for
10:36 13 having this child was because her sisters and
10:36 14 her cousins had children, and she wanted to have
10:36 15 one like them.
10:36 16 And, oh, by the way, yes, the mother was a
10:36 17 teenage parent, too; and, yes, they were all on
10:36 18 welfare, and that cycle was continuing.
10:36 19 And as a state, I think, that what we do is
10:36 20 look as hard as we can, yet how do we break this
10:37 21 cycle, and how do we provide programs and do the
10:37 22 kind of things that we need to do here, and then
10:37 23 get them hopefully in vocational programs; or if
10:37 24 it's possible to maintain the tracks in the
10:37 25 traditional track of school, get them in
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10:37 1 education so that they can move on and not be
10:37 2 wards of the state.
10:37 3 Here are recommendations -- referenced
10:37 4 programs for parenting -- pregnant and parenting
10:37 5 teenagers.
10:37 6 I'd now like to move to legal issues.
10:37 7 This -- this is sort of a soapbox the Council
10:37 8 had -- very hard to try to keep me off of. I'd
10:38 9 like to invite your attention to page -- I said
10:38 10 33. And I think I have that on the wrong page.
10:38 11 I'm sorry, page 36, please. Page 36.
10:38 12 I have a hard time understanding -- and I'm
10:38 13 an Army officer and I'm armor and tank corps and
10:38 14 all that, and I'm still active duty, and been to
10:38 15 Vietnam, and 29 years and -- citizen of Florida,
16 Florida A&M University graduate, and
10:38 17 Florida State, and all that stuff.
10:38 18 And I have problems understanding why we
10:38 19 ought to have thirty-nine year old men,
10:38 20 twenty-nine year old men, forty year old men
10:38 21 having sex with eight, ten, eleven year old
10:38 22 girls, and nothing happening to them.
10:38 23 I think that it's something that our state
10:38 24 ought to act on, because it just, in my opinion,
10:38 25 doesn't make sense that we should continue to
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10:38 1 let that occur in our state and in our society.
10:39 2 On page 36, it says that any person who has
10:39 3 unlawful carnal intercourse with any unmarried
4 person of previous chaste character, who at the
10:39 5 time of same intercourse is under the age of
10:39 6 eighteen.
10:39 7 I invite your attention to the words of
8 previous chaste condition. What in the world
10:39 9 does that have to do with an old person, a
10:39 10 person who is majority, a person who is
10:39 11 twenty-nine, who's thirty, who's forty, having
10:39 12 sex with a ten year old, eleven year old
10:39 13 individual.
10:39 14 The stories are -- are there, it is still
10:39 15 happening in our state. The age of people who
10:39 16 are having sex with many of the young girls in
10:39 17 our state by far exceed the age of the girls
10:39 18 that are impregnated.
10:40 19 Most of the pregnant -- most of the young
10:40 20 girls in our state who are pregnant or get
10:40 21 pregnant are not pregnant by their peers. It is
10:40 22 not by other high school age or other teenage
10:40 23 persons who are of their age.
10:40 24 This is the recommendation that we have to
10:40 25 you reference the legal issues. We would ask
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:40 1 you to please take a look at this statute, to
10:40 2 look at more forcefully prosecuting statutory
10:40 3 rape issues, and see what we can do to turn
10:40 4 around this issue of teenage pregnancy in our
10:40 5 state.
10:40 6 And finally, there is a number of
10:40 7 appendices that are in the report. We would
10:40 8 invite you to please look at it, have members of
10:40 9 your staff to look at it. And we feel that this
10:40 10 report can make a difference in the state of
10:41 11 Florida if it's looked at, and if we work on
10:41 12 some of the recommendations in those areas where
10:41 13 you're able to make a difference.
10:41 14 The final point that I said I would cover
10:41 15 with you today was one of asking for your
10:41 16 continuance of the council that I'm on. I am
10:41 17 appointed to this council, as are the other
10:41 18 members, by Commissioner Brogan. The very title
10:41 19 of the council says for the Education of Women
10:41 20 and Girls.
10:41 21 We're moving to a block grant environment.
10:41 22 We feel that we should move to an environment
10:41 23 where we are interested not only in women and
10:41 24 girls, but for all of the citizens of the state
10:41 25 of Florida where we're interested in gender and
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10:41 1 equity issues for the whole state of Florida.
10:41 2 And with the end of Perkins, we beseech you to
10:41 3 appoint a council like this, even if it's a new
10:41 4 council, doesn't have to be this council.
10:42 5 This council is well constituted, it is
10:42 6 across the state in terms of its representation,
10:42 7 it is across a number of business and interests
10:42 8 in its representation, it has ethnic background
10:42 9 across the entirety of our state.
10:42 10 But we believe that you should have and
10:42 11 need a council like this to come to you and
10:42 12 bring advice, to visit the state and hear people
10:42 13 throughout the state of Florida on the equity
10:42 14 and fairness issues that approach you as a
15 state.
10:42 16 How it would be funded, we're presently
10:42 17 funded out of the Commission of Education. We
10:42 18 would hope that we could continue there. But in
10:42 19 whatever way or means you decided to fund a
10:42 20 council that would be able to speak to the
10:42 21 equity and gender issues of this state, we would
10:42 22 encourage you to do so.
10:42 23 Subject to your questions, that completes
10:42 24 my presentation.
10:42 25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:42 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
10:42 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- on behalf of the
10:42 3 State Board of Education, I would just like to
10:43 4 thank Colonel Joe, and all the members of the
10:43 5 Commission for working so hard; and as you can
10:43 6 see, working so diligently on a variety of
10:43 7 important issues.
10:43 8 It is I think somewhat redundant to say
10:43 9 that we are all aware of the financial burden
10:43 10 that comes about for all of us when -- when
10:43 11 teenagers are engaged in these kinds of
10:43 12 activities. We also recognize even more so the
10:43 13 burden that it places on the individuals trying
10:43 14 to seek the American dream, and lead the
10:43 15 American dream, when they start so early on with
10:43 16 the challenges that they face in these
10:43 17 situations.
10:43 18 And we know it's a pressure that in many
10:43 19 ways has been relegated to schools, in my humble
10:43 20 opinion, because many of our communities are not
10:43 21 addressing the problem the way they should and
10:43 22 turning to our schools for all of the answers to
10:43 23 some of society's greatest problems in the
10:43 24 limited time and the limited -- with the limited
10:43 25 resources that we have available.
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10:43 1 Most importantly to me -- because,
10:44 2 of course, I've written many reports such as
10:44 3 this -- but I think within this report, there's
10:44 4 some very, very important information that's
10:44 5 alluded to by Colonel Joe, and that I was
10:44 6 fascinated with, and yet very, very upset
10:44 7 about.
10:44 8 And if you did, as I did, read through the
10:44 9 document, you see such bulletins on page 17
10:44 10 where it says -- and I'm reiterating some of
10:44 11 what Colonel Joe said -- men older than
10:44 12 high school age account for 77 percent of all
10:44 13 births among girls of high school age sixteen to
10:44 14 eighteen. That's a staggering thought.
10:44 15 Because we get so stereotypically minded
10:44 16 and think that the vast majority of teenage
10:44 17 births are as a result of teenagers having
10:44 18 premarital sex, and then you see a statistic
10:44 19 like that which points out something so glaring,
10:44 20 that older men are involved in these kinds of
10:44 21 illegal --
10:44 22 And I really appreciate your pointing that
10:44 23 out.
10:44 24 -- patently illegal activities. And more
10:45 25 often than not, without any sort of intervention
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
October 24, 1995
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10:45 1 from -- from the system.
10:45 2 You also see a bullet there that says
10:45 3 two-thirds of the teenagers who give birth
10:45 4 provided no information about the father on the
10:45 5 birth certificate.
10:45 6 COLONEL JOE: That's right.
10:45 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I would suggest
10:45 8 that's a national trend that we're seeing.
10:45 9 I think what it does is create -- it's a very
10:45 10 sad classification within -- within the male
10:45 11 ranks that suggest that it's easy to be involved
10:45 12 in conception, it's another thing to actually
10:45 13 father a child.
10:45 14 And in my opinion -- and I'm sure that of
10:45 15 the members of the State Board -- father means
10:45 16 far more than just being --
10:45 17 COLONEL JOE: That's correct.
10:45 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- being involved in
10:45 19 the actual conception of that child.
10:45 20 And so I think it's a sad commentary when
10:45 21 we see so many of our youngsters involved in
10:45 22 these activities with older men, number one, who
10:45 23 in my opinion are just absolutely engaged in a
10:45 24 willful criminal act by taking advantage of a
10:45 25 vulnerable young person.
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10:45 1 And I also believe that as we continue to
10:46 2 look at our entire system of welfare and -- and
10:46 3 how we're trying to help many of these teenagers
10:46 4 in this situation, we don't ever forget the fact
10:46 5 that two people have to be involved in
10:46 6 conception, and that I think we have been giving
10:46 7 a free ride to too many young men, and men who
10:46 8 are older over the years to become involved in
10:46 9 conception with absolutely no responsibility to
10:46 10 the actual fathering of those children.
10:46 11 Nationwide, the percentages of unwed
10:46 12 mothers are growing dramatically and
10:46 13 shockingly. And I think a part of that is the
10:46 14 fact that men, whether they're young or old
10:46 15 enough to know better, are not forced to take
10:46 16 the responsibility for anything other than the
10:46 17 conception of these children, and I think it
10:46 18 makes a sad commentary about where our society
10:46 19 is headed.
10:46 20 And we really want to thank Colonel Joe and
10:47 21 the members of the Commission. They come forth
10:47 22 annually with a number of statistical pieces
10:47 23 that have to do with girls and women. This year
10:47 24 I think their report is important for many of
10:47 25 us.
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10:47 1 And I think again, and I'll wrap up by
10:47 2 saying, we've got to constantly remind everyone
10:47 3 that the education of youngsters transcends the
10:47 4 classroom and the school campus. It is a family
10:47 5 and a community activity as well.
10:47 6 And personal and individual responsibility
10:47 7 is something that I think is ignored too much as
10:47 8 we approach the 21st Century. But it's even
10:47 9 becoming more important as we approach the
10:47 10 21st Century. And it's something that we have
10:47 11 to return to, and that is suggesting that people
10:47 12 who break the rules have consequences that
10:47 13 should and must be paid, to send a clear message
10:47 14 to everyone that we simply cannot continue to
10:47 15 tolerate acts such as this in the future.
10:47 16 So, Colonel Joe, on behalf of all of us,
10:47 17 thank you again very much. It's I think an
10:47 18 important piece, and we appreciate the
10:47 19 Commission as well.
10:48 20 Thank you, Governor.
10:48 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, Colonel.
10:48 22 COLONEL JOE: Yes.
10:48 23 TREASURER NELSON: Just one quick question.
10:48 24 Colonel --
10:48 25 MR. BEDFORD: Colonel.
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10:48 1 TREASURER NELSON: -- does the intriguing,
10:48 2 yet shocking revelation of what Frank just
10:48 3 mentioned, three-quarters are -- of the fathers
10:48 4 are not high school --
10:48 5 COLONEL JOE: Yes, sir.
10:48 6 TREASURER NELSON: -- does that change in
10:48 7 any way the public receptivity to sexual
10:48 8 education in the schools?
10:48 9 COLONEL JOE: I don't think it would change
10:48 10 the public receptivity. It -- it's a community
10:48 11 issue, as you well know. And so there are some
10:48 12 communities where it would be from one end of
10:48 13 the spectrum to the other.
10:48 14 Where it would go all the way from
10:48 15 involving the school, talking about the sexual
10:48 16 education, inviting -- providing contraceptives,
10:48 17 if necessary, to those communities where you
10:49 18 absolutely wouldn't talk about contraceptives at
10:49 19 all, but then would talk about the sexual
10:49 20 education piece in the classroom.
10:49 21 So I think that in those programs where we
10:49 22 found our research is that education about
10:49 23 sexuality, education about unsafe sex, which is
10:49 24 also a really -- these sexually transmitted
10:49 25 diseases -- and I didn't have time to go through
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
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10:49 1 all that -- is also a real threat to our society
10:49 2 and to our state. So we also have to try to
10:49 3 educate these teens on how to have safe sexual
10:49 4 activities, if they're going to have them, is
10:49 5 something that we really need to do.
10:49 6 I guess the frightening thing for me, and
10:49 7 what I -- what we wanted to relay is that here
10:49 8 is a good -- there's a large majority of this
10:49 9 activity that is going -- that is ongoing, and
10:49 10 it's illegal.
10:49 11 I mean, if we could stop the 77 percent of
10:49 12 older men and send this clear signal to them
10:49 13 that this is illegal, unwanted, and that we will
10:49 14 not tolerate this kind of behavior, we could
10:50 15 begin to see a decrease in the -- in the kind of
10:50 16 statistics and numbers that we have here.
10:50 17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I --
10:50 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
10:50 19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- could I address
10:50 20 that for just a minute, because it's an
10:50 21 important question.
10:50 22 I think that this information, because the
10:50 23 issue of -- of sexuality and sexual education,
10:50 24 of course, is going to be one that will be
10:50 25 debated well beyond all of us.
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10:50 1 But I think appropriate information is
10:50 2 important for students. You know, it's
10:50 3 interesting how we will talk to kindergarten
10:50 4 students in programs such as Stranger Danger,
5 where we tell them to beware --
10:50 6 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
10:50 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- of those who would
10:50 8 actually do them harm out there in the adult
10:50 9 population.
10:50 10 But as youngsters start to get a little
10:50 11 older -- and I still consider seventeen year
10:50 12 olds as youngsters -- we start to take a
10:50 13 different approach to things like that. And in
10:50 14 my opinion, those who would prey on the
10:50 15 vulnerability of a child of sixteen, seventeen,
10:50 16 or less --
10:50 17 COLONEL JOE: We've got ten year olds,
10:50 18 eight year olds, eleven year olds. It's just --
10:50 19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- are just as
10:50 20 dangerous to those youngsters as a potential
10:51 21 child molester in a park is to a five or six
10:51 22 year old, for different reasons, but with
10:51 23 shockingly the same kind of atrocities being
10:51 24 perpetrated out there.
10:51 25 I would think that a group that probably
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10:51 1 should be aware of information such as this are
10:51 2 the students themselves, that they do need to be
10:51 3 wary of those who would prey on them, even if
10:51 4 they are seventeen, because it's possible to be
10:51 5 preyed upon by an older individual, that you've
10:51 6 got to be aware.
10:51 7 And a statistic such as that, which is so
10:51 8 frightening and so alarming I think would be
10:51 9 equally frightening and alarming to young people
10:51 10 to know, because they have the same
10:51 11 stereotypical --
10:51 12 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
10:51 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- view of teen
10:51 14 pregnancy that most teen pregnancy occurs with
10:51 15 other teenagers, to hear that they are
10:51 16 absolutely in peril when it comes to dealing
10:51 17 with older -- older adults who are actually
10:51 18 violating the law when they're engaged in these
10:51 19 activities.
10:51 20 COLONEL JOE: And the education piece is so
10:51 21 important, again, because you have to remember
10:52 22 that some of this is family abuse. It's some --
10:52 23 some of this occurs where young girls are in
10:52 24 families, and family members involved in sexual
10:52 25 abuse within the family. And they need to be
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10:52 1 taught self-esteem and coping techniques for how
10:52 2 to deal with that as well.
10:52 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
10:52 4 Did we adopt the --
10:52 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Is there a
10:52 6 motion to approve?
10:52 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move to accept
10:52 8 the --
10:52 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and second to
10:52 10 receive the report.
10:52 11 As many as favor, signify by saying aye.
10:52 12 Opposed, no.
10:52 13 Subject -- item 4.
10:52 14 MR. BEDFORD: Item 4 is a repeal of 6A,
10:52 15 dash, 10.018, Time Shortened Educational
10:52 16 Programs.
10:52 17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:52 18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:52 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:52 20 Without objection, it's approved.
10:52 21 MR. BEDFORD: Items 5 through, and
10:52 22 including 14, we request deferral.
10:52 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I would
10:52 24 request that deferral. And also to make
10:52 25 mention, lest you think this is becoming too
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10:52 1 redundant, we are having some difficulty
10:53 2 reaching agreement with the Joint Administrative
10:53 3 Procedures Committee on some of these rules.
10:53 4 I recognize that these are dotted line
10:53 5 rules on my organizational chart and don't fall
10:53 6 directly beneath my purview. But nevertheless,
10:53 7 I'm responsible for bringing them to you.
10:53 8 And we're trying to work these through with
10:53 9 the Joint Administrative Procedures Committee to
10:53 10 their satisfaction, as well as the satisfaction
10:53 11 of the group asking to promulgate the rule
10:53 12 changes.
10:53 13 So as soon as we arrive at that conclusion,
10:53 14 we will bring them forward. I'm -- I'm a bit
10:53 15 concerned on this issue philosophically,
10:53 16 however.
10:53 17 I know, as you -- all the other agency
10:53 18 heads and the members of the Cabinet, I'm going
10:53 19 to be coming forward with volumes of rules for
10:53 20 repeal and amendment, et cetera, based on all of
10:53 21 our philosophies. And we're trying to work
10:53 22 through some philosophical issues which abs--
10:53 23 hopefully we'll be able to do that soon and
10:53 24 bring these rules forward.
10:53 25 So we would like to defer this issue today.
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10:53 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion to defer.
10:53 2 Is there a second?
10:54 3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:54 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
10:54 5 Without objection, it's deferred.
10:54 6 MR. BEDFORD: Item 15, appointment to the
10:54 7 Education Practices Commission by
10:54 8 Commissioner Brogan.
10:54 9 Appointee: Robert G. Walker as
10:54 10 Superintendent, September 30th, 1999; appointee,
10:54 11 Ronald S. Wright, Administrator, September 30th,
10:54 12 1999; appointee, Robert E. Burton, former
10:54 13 school board member, September 30th, 1999;
10:54 14 Jordon J. Corbett, former school board member,
10:54 15 September 30th, 1998; Patricia Schmoyer,
10:54 16 teacher, September 30th, 1999; and
10:54 17 Margaret A. Wolfe, teacher, September 30th,
10:54 18 1999.
10:54 19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval,
10:54 20 Governor.
10:54 21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:54 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:54 23 Without objection, approved.
10:54 24 MR. BEDFORD: Item 16, appointments to the
10:54 25 Education Standards Commission by
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10:54 1 Commissioner Brogan.
10:54 2 Appointee: Bobbie D' Alessandro,
10:54 3 Superintendent, September 30th, 1996;
10:54 4 Eloise Lisch, school board member,
10:55 5 September 30th, 1998; Barbara Sharpe,
10:55 6 school board member, September 30th, 1996;
10:55 7 William L. Proctor representing higher
10:55 8 education, September 30th, 1998; Kathy Johnson,
10:55 9 higher education, September 30th, 1998;
10:55 10 Diane Farmer, teacher, September 30th, 1998;
10:55 11 Mattie Rodriquez-Walling, teacher,
10:55 12 September 30th, 1998; James W. Pippen, teacher,
10:55 13 September 30th, 1998.
10:55 14 We wish to withdraw the name of
10:55 15 Patricia Carson, teacher. She has been promoted
10:55 16 to an administrator and can no longer serve in
10:55 17 that position as a teacher.
10:55 18 Reappointee would be Rebecca McBride,
10:55 19 principal; and Mary Lopez, teacher, with terms
10:55 20 September 30th, 1998.
10:55 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'd move
10:55 22 approval with special notation that we will
10:55 23 withdraw Patricia Carson, and come back with --
10:55 24 with a name as soon as we have one available to
10:56 25 the members of the State Board of Education.
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10:56 1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:56 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:56 3 Without objection, it's approved.
10:56 4 MR. BEDFORD: Item 17,
10:56 5 State University System Information Technology
10:56 6 Resource Procurement Advisory Council report for
10:56 7 the fiscal year 1994-95.
10:56 8 You have in your backup packet the three
10:56 9 actions taken by that council, and it is a
10:56 10 four-information item.
10:56 11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Do we need a motion
10:56 12 on for information, Governor?
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah, I think we do need
10:56 14 a motion.
10:56 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move we approve.
10:56 16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10:56 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:56 18 Without objection, it's approved.
10:56 19 MR. BEDFORD: Item 18 is to repeal/revise
10:56 20 rules of Chapter 6C-6, Students. This would be
10:56 21 State University System rules.
10:56 22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:56 23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:56 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:56 25 Without objection, it's approved.
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10:56 1 MR. BEDFORD: Item 19, to repeal rules in
10:56 2 chapter 6C-8, Educational Delivery.
10:56 3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:56 4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:56 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:57 6 Without objection, it's approved.
10:57 7 MR. BEDFORD: Item 20, to repeal or revise
10:57 8 rules in Chapter 6C, dash, 10, Miscellaneous
10:57 9 Provisions.
10:57 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:57 11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:57 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:57 13 Without objection, it's approved.
10:57 14 MR. BEDFORD: Item 21, revise Rule 6C,
10:57 15 dash, 10.001, Self Insurance Programs.
10:57 16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:57 17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:57 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:57 19 Without objection, it's approved.
10:57 20 MR. BEDFORD: Item 22, to revise Rule
10:57 21 6C-10, dash, 013, Certification of Residency for
10:57 22 Appropriated Program.
10:57 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:57 24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:57 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
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10:57 1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:57 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
10:57 3 Without objection, it's approved.
10:57 4 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
5 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
6 concluded.)
7 *
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10:57 1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
10:57 2 Administrative Commission.
10:57 3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
10:57 4 approval of the minutes of the meeting held
10:57 5 October 12th, 1995.
10:57 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move, Governor.
10:57 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:57 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:57 9 Without objection, minutes are approved.
10:57 10 DR. BRADLEY: Item 2 A., recommend the
10:57 11 transfer of general revenue appropriations from
10:58 12 administered funds to the Department of Banking
10:58 13 and Finance.
10:58 14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:58 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:58 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:58 17 Without objection, it's approved.
10:58 18 DR. BRADLEY: Item 2 B., recommend the
10:58 19 transfer of general revenue appropriations in
10:58 20 the Department of Banking and Finance.
10:58 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:58 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:58 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:58 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:58 25 Without objection, it's approved.
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10:58 1 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend the
10:58 2 establishment of position in excess of the
10:58 3 number fixed by the Legislature in the
10:58 4 Department of Environmental Protection.
10:58 5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:58 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:58 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:58 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:58 9 Without objection, it's approved.
10:58 10 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 4, recommend the
10:58 11 transfer of general revenue appropriations in
10:58 12 the Department of Health and Rehabilitative
10:58 13 Services.
10:58 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:58 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:58 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:58 17 Without objection, it's approved.
10:58 18 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 5, recommend the
10:58 19 transfer of general revenue appropriations in
10:58 20 the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
10:58 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:58 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:58 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:58 24 Without objection, it's approved.
10:58 25 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 6, recommend the
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10:58 1 transfer of fixed capital outlay appropriations.
10:58 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
10:59 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:59 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:59 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:59 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:59 7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
9 concluded.)
10 *
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10:59 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: FLAWAC.
10:59 2 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, request
10:59 3 approval of the minutes of September 14th, 1995,
10:59 4 Commission meeting.
10:59 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
10:59 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:59 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:59 8 Without objection, it's approved.
10:59 9 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2 is a request --
10:59 10 the authorization to enter a draft final order.
10:59 11 We have a number of individuals here to speak on
10:59 12 this issue.
10:59 13 David Theriaque from Edgewater Beach Owners
10:59 14 Association; Marti Chumbler, KMP, Ltd.;
15 David Jordan from DCA; and also available to
16 speak if you have any questions is George Miller
17 from Walton County --
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Do you have some kind of
19 time frame?
20 DR. BRADLEY: Five minutes?
21 The first person would be David Theriaque
22 from the Edgewater Beach Owners Association.
23 MR. THERIAQUE: Good morning.
24 My name is David Theriaque, I represent the
25 Association.
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1 Before I turn to our arguments regarding
2 the recommended order, I'd like to briefly
3 address our motion to abate, which we filed
4 along with our exceptions to the recommended
5 order.
6 The basis for our rec-- our motion to abate
7 is that the order before you and the 1993
8 resolution, which is the crux of that
9 recommended order from the hearing officer is no
10 longer the project.
11 In 1995, Walton County approved another
12 resolution which superseded the 1993 resolution,
13 which forms a basis of the case that's before
14 you.
15 In the 1993 resolution, the -- excuse me --
16 the 1995 resolution, Walton County changed the
17 configuration, at the request of KPM, and
18 changed it from the 19 town homes and the
19 282 units to a 24-story condominium unit.
20 And there's a case pending before DOAH at
21 this point challenging the '95 resolution.
22 Well, after the '95 resolution was adopted, KPM,
23 one of the defendants in this case, sold the
24 property to Paul Freeman of the Grand Dunes. So
25 the defendant that's before you in the '93 case
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1 no longer even owns the property.
2 And Mr. Freeman has subsequently filed
3 another notice of proposed change to change the
4 project again. That was just filed the
5 beginning of October.
6 So essentially you're hearing a case today
7 that nobody has any intention to build, and one
8 of the defendants is no longer even involved in
9 the case any more.
10 You will hear argument that it's crucial
11 that you resolve this case because one of the
12 issues is whether or not you can resolve --
13 whether you can revive a development order that
14 has expired.
15 However, the issues that you will not be
16 able to resolve in the other cases which will
17 continue on are standing questions, are
18 questions about what happens after a development
19 order is revived, whether or not it has to
20 comply with the current Comprehensive Plan and
21 the current regulations.
22 And we would contend that those are issues
23 that should be addressed at the same time as the
24 issue of whether or not the development order
25 could be revived. And we would request that you
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1 abate the 1993 proceeding until the 1995 case is
2 resolved.
3 As a further point, the 1995 case, which
4 was scheduled for hearing in November, has been
5 abated as well to allow the new owner to
6 submit -- which they have another notice of
7 proposed change for a different project.
8 So that hearing officer is staying that
9 case so we can get whatever the final project is
10 going to be for the remainder of the Edgewater
11 DRI. Now, at this point, we simply don't know.
12 Turning to our objections -- or exceptions
13 to the recommended order. I'll be very brief
14 with this.
15 On the merits, we contend quite simply that
16 when a development order has an expiration date
17 and the time passes, that it's dead.
18 Section 380.06 provides the requirement that all
19 development orders contain a termination date.
20 There is no language in the statute whatsoever
21 that states, well, it's only sort of dead, that
22 you can take it back from the grave and breathe
23 life into it six months, a year, two years,
24 five years down the road.
25 At the time that Walton County adopted this
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1 resolution, section 380.06 did not have a
2 termination requirement. The County was ahead
3 of itself, and actually required that a
4 termination date be included in the resolution.
5 The Florida Legislature in 1985,
6 recognizing that we have these development
7 orders that have no termination dates pending
8 throughout the entire state, some have referred
9 to them as dinosaurs, because they're vested
10 from the current comprehensive plan. They can
11 build out without having to comply with current
12 regs. The Florida Legislature in 1985 amended
13 380.06 to require a termination date so that at
14 some point in time these things die.
15 Regarding the standing, the hearing officer
16 held that we did not have standing. The
17 association failed to quantify the impacts that
18 would take place to its retention pond.
19 I respectfully submit that that's an
20 impossible burden. The storm water retention
21 plan submitted by KPM is not the final plan.
22 And, indeed, the evidence was undisputed at the
23 hearing that the groundwater model necessary to
24 determine how their retention system was going
25 to function was never performed.
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1 In essence, the hearing officer would have
2 us performing functions that the -- KPM itself
3 had never performed. And we are -- the
4 Association was held to a burden of trying to
5 prove something that it could never prove.
6 The second basis for our standing is that
7 it's also undisputed among DCA, among
8 Walton County, by my clients, that my clients,
9 which turn -- this is the half that was
10 constructed, the half that's on my right. This
11 is the half that was never constructed.
12 All parties agree that if my clients were
13 to do any change to what's been constructed,
14 that they still have to comply with the
15 notification of proposed change requirements in
16 the DRI statute, that they are still bound by
17 those regulations. And yet we are told --
18 My 5 minutes are up?
19 I'm told my 5 minutes are up. If I can
20 have one more minute, sir.
21 Thank you.
22 That was a quick 5 minutes.
23 And yet we are --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Time flies when
25 you're having fun, right?
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1 MR. THERIAQUE: And yet we are told that
2 while we are bound by the regulations of the DRI
3 statute, that we don't have standing, we don't
4 have any of the -- the attributes of qualifying
5 for being bound.
6 And lastly, the public policy that's at
7 issue here, this is a case of first impression.
8 There is no case law. This is an opportunity
9 for you all to establish a state policy on
10 issues of this nature.
11 If Hurricane Opal has taught us anything,
12 it should have taught us that low density
13 development is what should occur on our
14 beaches. If this development order is revived,
15 it revives 19 town homes and 282 condo units.
16 If this development order is terminated, it
17 allows for approximately 84 condo units.
18 I would submit that for the state public
19 policy, the Governor and Cabinet should take a
20 position that we promote, wherever possible, the
21 lowest density development on the beaches.
22 Thank you.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Can I ask a question
25 before he leaves the podium, Governor?
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: How many units in
3 Edgewater?
4 MR. THERIAQUE: One hundred and
5 seventy-five.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Significantly --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: How many units would have
8 been there if the other side of the horseshoe
9 had been completed?
10 MS. CHUMBLER: Three hundred and one.
11 MR. THERIAQUE: Three hundred and one. If
12 the other side had been completed, sir.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Total of 175 --
14 MR. THERIAQUE: And 301.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: And 301.
16 MR. THERIAQUE: Yes, sir.
17 MS. CHUMBLER: Right. For
18 four seventy-six.
19 MR. THERIAQUE: For a total -- and that was
20 back in 1982 when it was approved prior to the
21 new comp plan.
22 Thank you.
23 DR. BRADLEY: The next speaker is
24 Marti Chumbler of KMP.
25 MS. CHUMBLER: Governor, members of the
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1 Cabinet, I'm Marti Chumbler with the Carlton,
2 Fields law firm here representing KPM, the
3 developer.
4 If I could, I'd like to respond to a couple
5 of the things that Mr. Theriaque mentioned to
6 you.
7 First, he mentioned that the present owner
8 of the property, my client's property, is no
9 longer KPM. That's not quite right. KPM is
10 still a part owner of this property due in large
11 part to the cost of litigation. This litigation
12 has been going on since '93.
13 KPM found it necessary to bring in a new
14 partner to help finance the project. And as a
15 result of that, we now have a second partner who
16 is now part owner of the property. But KPM is
17 still here, KPM is still present, and is still
18 part owner of the property.
19 Mr. Theriaque also spoke to you about the
20 need for a motion to grant his motion to abate.
21 I would suggest to you that that would not be
22 appropriate.
23 There have been a number of changes in this
24 project through the years, beginning first with
25 the project in '82 that would have had a total
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1 of 476 units.
2 In '93, my client came in and asked for a
3 downsizing of their phases -- remaining phases
4 of the project. It would have been 301 units
5 under the original plan.
6 In the proposal that's -- or the resolution
7 that's before you today, they would have
8 downsized that to 286 units.
9 Their -- their plan in '93, what you
10 actually have before you today, would have
11 consisted of 19 town homes on the beach side of
12 the property here, with subsequent phases of
13 high-rise condos back from the beach toward the
14 rear of the property.
15 And it -- before my client could come to
16 the -- could build those subsequent phases, they
17 would have had to go back to the county for
18 additional approval.
19 Unfortunately there -- even though this
20 body originally dismissed the appeal challenging
21 that '93 resolution, the District Court of
22 Appeal reversed, there was a long delay because
23 of that intervening period of two years, we're
24 now back before you on a resolution that was
25 first granted in 1993.
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1 And the real estate market simply changed.
2 The change that occurred between '93 -- the '93
3 resolution and the '95 resolution simply
4 reflects my clients looking at the real estate
5 market in the area and realizing that what was
6 marketable in '93 was no longer marketable in
7 '95.
8 And so they went to the County in '95 and
9 asked for an amendment. Now, that amendment is
10 not final. There was a resolution passed by the
11 County, and -- in January of '95 -- excuse me --
12 April of '95. But the Edgewater Beach
13 Condominium Association has challenged that in
14 three separate forums, two court cases that are
15 still pending, and one FLAWAC appeal that's
16 still pending.
17 So we don't have a '95 order yet. We don't
18 know if we'll ever have a '95 order.
19 The second reason the project has changed,
20 and I think that's most reflected in the
21 amendment that now is pending before the County,
22 has been an attempt by my client to negotiate
23 with -- with Edgewater to try to downsize the
24 project and make the project one that's more
25 palletable to Edgewater.
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1 The '95 order that's been approved by the
2 County would have had 281 units in the
3 subsequent phases. The amendment that's now
4 pending before the County would downsize that to
5 178 units.
6 So what we keep doing is going back to
7 Edgewater, trying to come up with a project that
8 would be more acceptable to them. And yet still
9 be a marketable project.
10 Having this property means nothing to my
11 client if they can't sell it, and if they can't
12 find people who are willing to purchase units on
13 this property.
14 He also mentioned to you Opal and the need
15 to have low density development on this
16 property. George Ralph Miller, the County
17 Attorney is here, and he I think can tell you
18 from firsthand inspection of the area that the
19 projects that were harmed in this area were not
20 the high density condominiums. They did very
21 well. The new construction condominiums out
22 there withstood Opal very well. It was the low
23 density, older construction that was harmed on
24 these beachfronts.
25 Now, to get you to what are the real merits
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1 of this case, the hearing officer found that the
2 Department of Community Affairs' long-standing
3 policy that a local government can decide
4 whether it wants to revive a development order
5 is an appropriate policy.
6 Mr. Jordan from the Department of Community
7 Affairs is going to come and tell you why those
8 are -- that is a good policy, and it's one that
9 should be continued.
10 What I want to tell you is what it means to
11 my client if you make a decision contrary to
12 that recommendation.
13 My client went to the County in '92, right
14 after they took possession of this property; and
15 said, we've got a development order that's about
16 to expire, what do we do?
17 They were told, simply come to the
18 Commission and ask for it to be extended. They
19 did that to the County Commission.
20 Everything that my client has done since
21 they took possession of this property has been
22 at the express direction of either the county or
23 the Department of Community Affairs.
24 If my client had chosen to ignore
25 directions they had gotten from governmental
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1 entities, those who supposedly knew what they
2 were doing, we could have had a project built.
3 And instead, we decided to follow the
4 rules. And following the rules, we now find
5 ourselves before you today saying, we don't
6 really care whether you revive the development
7 order or not, but if you decide not to, put us
8 back where we were in 1992, let us follow those
9 rules, and build a project.
10 Thank you.
11 Any questions before I --
12 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
14 TREASURER NELSON: The existing building
15 that's shown in that graphic right there --
16 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
17 TREASURER NELSON: -- how far is the most
18 seaward portion of that building from the
19 existing Gulf?
20 MS. CHUMBLER: I don't know the footage.
21 But I can tell you that when this original
22 project was built, it was to be built right out
23 to the then existing Coastal Construction Line.
24 Since that time, the Coastal Construction
25 Line has been backed up. The existing building
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1 extends beyond that Coastal Construction Line,
2 as would have the subsequent phases.
3 Now, each of the -- the amendments that my
4 client has sought to make this have been behind
5 the new Coastal Construction Line.
6 TREASURER NELSON: All right. But --
7 MS. CHUMBLER: I can't give you exact
8 footage or --
9 TREASURER NELSON: But the question is, and
10 it sparked my curiosity, because I've flown over
11 that building twice in the days right after the
12 hurricane, and I'd like to know how close is the
13 end of that building to the water.
14 MS. CHUMBLER: Mr. --
15 TREASURER NELSON: From my perch in the
16 helicopter, it looked very close.
17 MS. CHUMBLER: Mr. Miller may be able to
18 address that. I don't have --
19 TREASURER NELSON: Do we have an answer?
20 MR. MILLER: No, sir, I don't know. I
21 would say 200 feet or more.
22 (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
23 TREASURER NELSON: That's not what I saw.
24 MR. MILLER: It's quite a distance after
25 Opal, I assure you. The shoreline has been
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1 extended, the depth of it.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Counselor, where is the
3 Coastal Control Line now?
4 MS. CHUMBLER: The Coastal Construction --
5 I confess, I have not been there since the
6 storm.
7 There was a line of dunes here, and the
8 Coastal Construction Line was immediately behind
9 the pre-storm dune line.
10 TREASURER NELSON: All right. Show me on
11 the existing building where the --
12 MS. CHUMBLER: Well --
13 TREASURER NELSON: -- Coastal Line would
14 be.
15 MS. CHUMBLER: Commissioner Nelson, perhaps
16 the easiest -- I don't know if you have a copy
17 of the diagram that we handed out to the aides,
18 I'd be glad to provide you with a copy -- on --
19 in fact, I'll let everyone have a copy if they'd
20 like.
21 What I'm handing you is several diagrams of
22 some of the various permutations this project
23 has gone through.
24 If you turn to page 2 of that, you'll see a
25 dashed line there that indicates what the
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1 original Coastal Construction Line was.
2 And then if you look at the fourth page,
3 you'll see two dashed lines across the
4 property. The first that's -- the dashes are
5 slightly at greater distance from each other is
6 the original line. The second is the present
7 Coastal Construction Line.
8 Does that help you?
9 TREASURER NELSON: Yeah. It sure does.
10 That answers my question.
11 MS. CHUMBLER: Okay.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any other questions?
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Before I ask, we
14 still have another speaker, or speakers?
15 I'll wait.
16 DR. BRADLEY: The third speaker is
17 David Jordan of DCA.
18 (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
19 MR. JORDAN: Good morning. The Department
20 intervened in this case, because this is the
21 first time that the issue of how to deal with an
22 expired DRI and the revived DRI has been
23 presented to a hearing officer and to this
24 Commission.
25 The Department has dealt with this issue
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1 with many expired DRI development orders over
2 the years, involving many different kinds and
3 sizes of DRIs, ranging from a relatively small
4 shopping mall that was almost completed when the
5 development order expired, all the way up to a
6 very large DRI covering many acres with
7 development scattered all across the landscape
8 covered by the DRI development order.
9 And we were trying to ask -- we asked the
10 hearing officer to approve our policy as being
11 something that made sense not only in its regard
12 to this DRI, but in regards to having -- as it
13 would be applied to DRIs in general throughout
14 the years.
15 The hearing officer did accept our policy,
16 and we think it makes sense, especially in light
17 of the very detailed provisions of the statute
18 regarding how to amend a DRI development order
19 and how to abandon a DRI development order, both
20 of which tell you to take into account the
21 impacts of the change in approving either the
22 abandonment or the amendment.
23 The Department would ask the Commission to
24 approve your propos-- your staff's proposed
25 final order, which adopts the DOAH recommended
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1 order.
2 And I'd be glad to answer any questions
3 that you might have.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Other questions.
5 MR. JORDAN: Thank you.
6 DR. BRADLEY: That's all the speakers that
7 were scheduled to speak.
8 George Miller of Walton County is here if
9 you have any questions.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think we ought to
11 hear from George Miller.
12 MR. MILLER: Thank you, Governor. That's
13 about it.
14 As usual, you want to make sure I'm earning
15 my fee.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think that's about
17 enough now.
18 MR. MILLER: Again, as you -- I'll be happy
19 to answer any questions from the County's point
20 of view. We support, of course, the
21 hearing officer's recommended order.
22 TREASURER NELSON: I do want to compliment
23 the County and the County Commission, because it
24 was obvious to me that the County Commission is
25 enforcing the building code. Because it was the
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1 new single family structures that withstood the
2 title surge almost unscathed as compared to the
3 single family dwelling structures of vintage,
4 like, 1970 that were totally demolished.
5 Now, with regard to structures such as
6 this, I don't know. I -- I didn't go in them to
7 inspect them. But just purely from the
8 helicopter, it was clear on the single family
9 structures, you all are enforcing the code on
10 your new structures, and it paid off handsomely.
11 MR. MILLER: Absolutely. And I think the
12 high-rises did do quite well. The first floors
13 on some of them were blown out. I understand
14 that they're somewhat designed to do that. But
15 they sustained the wind and water damage quite
16 well. But you're absolutely correct about new
17 construction.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
19 MR. MILLER: Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I ask
21 counsel for Edgewater a question, please?
22 And I'm sorry, is it Mr. Theriaque?
23 MR. THERIAQUE: Theriaque.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Theriaque.
25 I'm sorry, sir.
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1 MR. THERIAQUE: Yes, sir.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We have wrestled with
3 this issue, got a lot of time spent on this
4 issue because it's complicated based on time,
5 previous rulings, pending rulings, changes in
6 the project itself.
7 But the one thing that I've got to ask, and
8 I'm going to ask you to speculate a little bit,
9 or -- possibly. The changes in the project that
10 I've seen since 1993 have taken the project from
11 476 units -- and please correct me if I'm
12 wrong -- 476 units to 301 units to 286 units,
13 and I heard someone mention a possible figure of
14 178 units.
15 I -- you know, as you read these things,
16 you not only read the law and the findings, but
17 you also start to read intent.
18 Counselor, is it the intent of Edgewater
19 that if KPM came along with a project that would
20 significantly downsize from even the 178, that
21 there would be objections filed?
22 MR. THERIAQUE: Let me answer that two
23 ways.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I guess -- I'm trying
25 to tap dance. Let me ask you straight out.
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1 Is Edgewater attempting to see that there
2 is no project --
3 MR. THERIAQUE: No.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- developed by KPM?
5 MR. THERIAQUE: None.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And if the answer to
7 that is no, then what is it that Edgewater is
8 looking for?
9 MR. THERIAQUE: If I may approach you, sir,
10 I'd like to hand something out which would help
11 me answer this question.
12 And because my time ran out, I wasn't able
13 to hit this point, so I appreciate you asking
14 the question.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's why I'm here.
16 MR. THERIAQUE: What the Association wants,
17 one of two alternatives: One, they would like
18 to have the project built out the way it was
19 designed in 1982. That has been their position
20 since 1992 --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Counselor, let me --
22 TREASURER NELSON: You mean like that?
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me interject.
24 MR. THERIAQUE: Yes, sir.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: My understanding was
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1 that one of the first problems was the fact that
2 there is a view problem with the original
3 architectural design, that the view would be
4 hindered by the residents of Edgewater for a
5 Gulf view if the original design were actually
6 constructed?
7 MR. THERIAQUE: No, sir. I believe some of
8 the condo units may have in their view -- I
9 can -- this is an artist's rendition that was
10 prepared at the time the 1982 development order
11 was approved.
12 If it would help, I'll bring it up there.
13 But if -- you can see, even from the back units,
14 which is where the elevator shaft is, because
15 this is a stair step condominium design, you
16 still have a view going out.
17 So their concern is not to try to kill any
18 project that's proposed by KPM or any other
19 developer. Their initial concern was they
20 bought into a project. There were amenities
21 that were supposed to be completed in the
22 subsequent phases.
23 As a matter of fact, when the developer
24 went bankrupt on the first two phases, they had
25 to dig into their own pocketbooks and complete
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1 many of the things that were supposed to be in
2 the first two phases. They still believe that
3 this is a fantastic design.
4 And if any developer were to come forward
5 and say, we want to complete what was proposed
6 in 1982, including the amenities, there would be
7 no objection.
8 If that doesn't take place, what they want
9 is whomever comes in -- whoever comes in, to
10 comply with the current Comprehensive Plan, that
11 the -- that they feel that it's inappropriate
12 for a developer to come in, revive a D.O., a
13 developmental order; not complete a project; not
14 incur any of the liabilities; but to get the
15 benefits of not having to comply with today's
16 current regs.
17 And if somebody were to come in and comply
18 with today's current regs in the 35 height
19 limitation, 35 foot height limitation; and
20 12 dwelling units per acre, we wouldn't be
21 here. That's their position.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay. Following up
23 on that. If the proposed project were
24 completed -- and I'm talking now I suppose about
25 the 286 unit project which is the one that is
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1 the most current project being promoted -- if
2 that were constructed as it exists today, are
3 there view problems with that and amenity
4 problems with that? Recognizing it is
5 substantially different than the original
6 project, I grant you that.
7 But how does that address the issues of
8 the -- the existing tenants when it comes to
9 those other issues that have been wrestled
10 with?
11 MR. THERIAQUE: It's my understanding of
12 the handout that Ms. Chumbler passed out to you,
13 there is a sheet that has a comparison of three
14 different designs. And I don't have that in
15 front of me.
16 The middle design is the one that is the
17 1995 resolution. That's a 24-story
18 condominium -- building, it's not stair
19 stepped. There would be a blockage problem.
20 But that's not on the table any more either.
21 There is a third design from the
22 Grand Dunes which I believe is either 189 or
23 178 units. I have not seen that proposal yet.
24 It's just been filed, as I understand, with the
25 Regional Planning Council sometime early
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1 October, shortly after Hurricane Opal.
2 I believe it's a 21-story building. My
3 understanding from my client, who has been in
4 almost daily contact with Paul Freeman, that
5 there is a blockage problem with the views with
6 that proposal as well.
7 Furthermore, there's no completion of the
8 amenities. Even if there was not a blockage
9 problem, this allows somebody to come in,
10 complete a development order with something
11 other than what was proposed in 1982, not
12 complete the amenities, and get all the
13 benefits, yet none of the liabilities.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, relative to the
15 issue of density, if -- if the group was ready
16 to approve a 476 unit project, and now has
17 density problems with a 286 unit project, I'm
18 trying to understand the position on density
19 then.
20 MR. THERIAQUE: Their contention is they
21 can't object to the original plan being built
22 out. They bought in expecting --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Like it or not --
24 MR. THERIAQUE: Like it or not --
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- is that what
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1 you're saying?
2 MR. THERIAQUE: -- that's what they bought
3 into. And that it would be inappropriate for
4 them to say, well, this is what we bought into,
5 but we really don't like it, we're going to
6 oppose it.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So the issue of
8 density is really, really moot then. If they're
9 willing to accept this -- density's a
10 philosophical issue, as well as an impact issue
11 if they're looking to buy into a 476 unit
12 project because it was good or bad, the one that
13 they had agreed to up front, and now they're
14 going to argue over 286 and the issue of
15 density, it really does make that argument
16 somewhat moot I would think.
17 I'm just trying to throw out those
18 arguments for myself that probably have a little
19 less impact or standing to me than some of the
20 other -- because you both make good arguments,
21 believe me.
22 And I'm trying to get down to the focus of
23 this thing. And I understand your position on
24 density, but it really does make that argument
25 somewhat diluted when we say, good, bad, or
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1 indifferent, we would accept 476; we won't
2 accept 286, because we think that's a density
3 problem.
4 There have been changes made. The order
5 that we have -- the recommended order that we
6 have in front of us today, I am concerned what
7 it actually is a recommended order regarding.
8 The retention pond issue. It's your
9 position that the retention pond issue is based
10 on a construction which is no longer being
11 proposed?
12 MR. THERIAQUE: It's my understanding from
13 the expert retained by KPM that they have
14 designed a mechanism -- a system that has a
15 retaining wall that apparently goes 6 or 8 feet
16 into the ground which will intercept and prevent
17 any storm water from the -- the 19 town homes
18 from reaching the retention pond that's on both
19 KPM's property and my client's property.
20 Our contention is that the 17 -- or the 19
21 town homes is no longer an issue, we're looking
22 at something else.
23 So regardless of how this body, or if this
24 thing goes up on appeal to the First District
25 Court of Appeal, rules on the standing issue on
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1 this particular plan, that that's not going to
2 be binding, because then we're looking at a
3 24-story condominium with a different storm
4 water run off management plan and different
5 impacts.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. And I'd
7 also, Governor -- I don't want to monopolize
8 this, but I also want to give the other counsel
9 an opportunity to respond to any of those
10 that -- that she would care to.
11 MR. THERIAQUE: Thank you.
12 MS. CHUMBLER: If I could, briefly on the
13 standing issue. Standing issue is a very legal
14 point.
15 Frankly, I just as soon you find they have
16 standing. Because that gets you to the -- to
17 the real crux of the issue, which is can this
18 development order be revived.
19 And in this letter from Miss Harris, the
20 president of the condominium association, that
21 has not been my client's understanding. But
22 taking that, if, in fact, the condominium
23 association would accept this, you have to --
24 you have to revive the development order.
25 Regardless of what is developed out there, you
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1 have to revive the development order.
2 So the question of what is ultimately built
3 out there is not really the issue that's before
4 this body. The issue is to revive the
5 development order so that some development can
6 occur. Whether it be this, or whether it be a
7 lesser development.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So it's your -- your
9 position that the recommended order which would
10 allow that development order to be restored is
11 point one --
12 MS. CHUMBLER: Right.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- other issues to be
14 addressed as they unfold in the future --
15 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- on what will no
17 doubt be a whole range of other issues --
18 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- on the project.
20 MS. CHUMBLER: That's right.
21 Some of those issues were hashed out before
22 the County, and some of them may be back here.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No doubt.
24 MS. CHUMBLER: And some of them will be
25 decided by a Circuit Court judge.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, would somebody
2 address the question of the relocation of the
3 Coastal Control Line from --
4 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
5 TREASURER NELSON: -- DEP after the storm.
6 DR. BRADLEY: Secretary Wetherell.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Mr. Treasurer, in this
8 county, we're not in the process -- or at this
9 point, we don't have any information to lead us
10 to reestablishing the line in that county.
11 Bay County was the one we were talking
12 about last week in which the line was
13 predominantly now in the water. And we have
14 since the last Cabinet meeting reestablished --
15 by an emergency order, a Control Line 100 feet
16 landward of the old line.
17 But in this county, at this point, we don't
18 have information to suggest that we would
19 reestablish a line.
20 Does that answer your question?
21 TREASURER NELSON: (Nodding head.)
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'd like it
23 if you'd answer that further.
24 If we're going to revive the development
25 order, and if after Opal it appears the Coastal
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1 Construction Line should be moved back -- I
2 don't know if it should or should not, I do not
3 know -- but let's say it should be moved back.
4 If we revive the development order, must
5 they build with the new construction line, or
6 the old construction line, or the one today?
7 MS. WETHERELL: I can't answer that
8 question. Let me see if I have anybody --
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Maybe the
10 Department can give us some idea here.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Kirby may can.
12 Can you answer that --
13 TREASURER NELSON: I think this is a very
14 important question.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Maybe --
16 TREASURER NELSON: You know, I could answer
17 it very precisely.
18 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
19 MS. CHUMBLER: Mr. Nelson, while they're
20 conferring, I'll tell you what my client has
21 indicated. And that is that all of those
22 separate permitting -- environmental
23 permitting --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Counsel, I'm sorry.
25 Could you sort of mill over there towards --
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1 MS. CHUMBLER: I'm sorry.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the microphone
3 there?
4 MS. CHUMBLER: All of the -- all of the
5 various --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Push them right --
7 don't -- yeah.
8 MS. CHUMBLER: The environmental permits
9 that we would have to get, including any
10 necessary coastal construction permit, would
11 still be required. We would have to comply with
12 that Coastal Construction Line in effect at the
13 time we sought those environmental licenses,
14 regardless of what the development order is.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What about
16 other procedures though? I mean -- I know one
17 of the questions was, what's the -- what's the
18 Department -- what if the County has all new
19 building procedures?
20 MS. CHUMBLER: We'd have to -- if they have
21 all new building permits, we'd have to follow
22 those new building permits.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But how
24 about the densities?
25 MS. CHUMBLER: Well, now, that's a comp
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1 plan issue. Now, if that is an issue, the issue
2 of vesting under the comp plan and consistency
3 with the comp plan was not raised in this
4 proceeding. In this proceeding.
5 It has been raised as to the '95
6 resolution. And, in fact, the Legislature has
7 decided that those consistency issues should be
8 decided in the Circuit Court, one sixty-two
9 three thirty-two fifteen specifically says that
10 the sole forum for deciding those consistency
11 issues is in Circuit Court.
12 And there is a Circuit Court proceeding
13 pending challenging the '95 resolution on that
14 issue.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Of what
16 benefit is there then to your client to revive
17 this development order versus just going for a
18 whole new DRI order?
19 MS. CHUMBLER: The benefit is that my
20 client has expended substantial funds on legal
21 fees, on my services, on experts, on other
22 people, we have gone through two days of
23 hearing, we have done appeals to the District
24 Court --
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You can help
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1 the bottom line of Carlton, Fields by -- by
2 letting you bill more hours.
3 MS. CHUMBLER: That would not help my
4 client, however.
5 We've been -- as I say, we've been in
6 litigation on the issue of whether a local
7 government can revive a development order for a
8 long time.
9 There is no need -- there is nothing to
10 be -- to be gained by throwing out all of that
11 work on the part of my firm, Mr. Theriaque's
12 firm, and several other law firms, and starting
13 all over again on that issue, because that's
14 what you'd be doing.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, is DCA
16 then also saying then, sir, that the -- by
17 reviving the development order, the environment
18 has no -- there's no problem that the
19 environment is not going to be harmed?
20 MR. JORDAN: No. What we're saying is is
21 that the -- once the decree which established
22 the commerce and planning process gives a
23 certain amount of respect to associated DRI
24 development orders.
25 And here we're talking about a change
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1 that's been determined to be a nonsubstantial
2 deviation too small to require further DRI
3 review. And in that event, we believe that it's
4 appropriate for the DRI development order to be
5 revived. Especially since the environmental
6 aspects were considered in the original DRI
7 review in the first place.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So you're
9 saying that -- or everyone's saying if, in fact,
10 the Coastal Construction Control Line should,
11 in essence, be on the other side of Highway 98,
12 by reviving the development order, they will not
13 be able to build south of 98, if their line gets
14 changed --
15 MR. JORDAN: Well, it's been --
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- before
17 the permit?
18 MR. JORDAN: Well, there's many cases that
19 say the DRI process is an additional layer of
20 review. That doesn't replace all the other
21 layers, it's just an additional layer of review
22 placed upon very large developments.
23 And, in fact, the DRI process, it just
24 recognizes the possibility of changes to the --
25 that will require the developer, because of
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1 other environmental reviews, and makes it easier
2 for the developer to get -- change the
3 development order on that basis.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If we revive
5 the order as of today, they must then comply
6 with all procedures of Walton County's in place
7 as of today, not in place as of yesterday or the
8 date that the original -- that they originally
9 got the development order.
10 MR. JORDAN: Well, that's true in regards
11 to things like building codes, as to how well
12 the building's going to be -- things like that.
13 That's not true in regards to the Comprehensive
14 Plan.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So how could
16 the State -- we as Trustees, how -- how are the
17 people of the state of Florida affected then?
18 Very simple language.
19 What are we losing by ruling the way you
20 want us to rule, the way DCA seems to want us to
21 rule in this --
22 MR. JORDAN: Well, we don't think we're
23 losing anything. We think we've got a
24 development that's already gone through a very
25 intense review process.
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1 We think they're proposing what has already
2 been determined to be a minor change to that
3 approval. We think if subsequent events in --
4 that would affect other regulatory programs,
5 like the Coastal Control -- Control Construction
6 Line mandated change -- further change, that can
7 be done, the DRI development order will not
8 prevent moving this building in regards to a new
9 Construction Control Line.
10 And we think that the -- this policy of
11 reviving DRIs that are not being changed very
12 much by extension of the expiration date because
13 of the analysis of the impacts of that change is
14 a good thing. Especially when you apply it to
15 all the various kinds of DRIs across the state.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I wish the
18 Secretary of the agency was here. I'm surprised
19 the secretary of the agency is not here. I wish
20 Mr. Murley was here, I'd like to hear from him
21 on this.
22 MR. JORDAN: Well, I can tell you that the
23 Secretary of the agency authorized intervention
24 on this very issue. That's -- this is the
25 policy of the Department that I'm explaining
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1 now --
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'm
3 surprised on such an important issue, the
4 Secretary's not here, sir.
5 MR. JORDAN: Okay.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, may I ask
7 Madam Counselor -- Carlton, Fields' counselor --
8 MS. CHUMBLER: I'm sorry.
9 TREASURER NELSON: -- would you tell me if
10 new standards are set and a new control line is
11 set --
12 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
13 TREASURER NELSON: -- that your client
14 would have to comply with, what would you
15 additionally have to comply with if the old
16 development order ceased that you would not have
17 to comply with if the old development order were
18 reactivated?
19 MS. CHUMBLER: Well, it depends on where
20 you put us in time. If you had put us at the
21 point in '92 when we took possession of this
22 property and first went to the County and then
23 Department of Community Affairs --
24 TREASURER NELSON: The time --
25 MS. CHUMBLER: -- and said --
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1 TREASURER NELSON: -- is today. Today.
2 MS. CHUMBLER: -- proceed --
3 TREASURER NELSON: Today.
4 MS. CHUMBLER: Okay. Time --
5 TREASURER NELSON: The answer --
6 MS. CHUMBLER: -- as of --
7 TREASURER NELSON: -- as of today.
8 MS. CHUMBLER: -- as of today --
9 TREASURER NELSON: That's correct.
10 MS. CHUMBLER: -- having not been misled
11 apparently -- or possibly by government, there
12 is a '93 development order that took place -- or
13 excuse me -- '93 Comprehensive Plan that was
14 adopted by the County after the '93 resolution
15 that is before you today.
16 That '93 Comprehensive Plan includes a
17 height limitation that was not in effect at the
18 time. That also includes I think 12 units per
19 acre density limitation.
20 The '93 resolution includes within it the
21 first phase, the phase that was specifically
22 approved, the 19 town homes, which not -- would
23 not violate the height limitation.
24 But the overall project did include later
25 phases -- later phases that would violate that
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1 height limitation.
2 Now, let me throw in a little extra, one
3 other thing why I think you're really getting
4 into a can of worms if you get into this issue
5 that was never raised in these proceedings.
6 And that is, there's a recent decision out
7 of the First District Court of Appeals, St. Joe
8 Paper Company versus Walton County, that calls
9 into question whether the '93 Comprehensive Plan
10 in Walton County is even in effect.
11 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. But that's not my
12 question.
13 MS. CHUMBLER: Now, aside from the
14 Comprehensive Plan, my response would be other
15 regulations and permitting requirements in
16 Walton County today, we would be required to
17 comply with.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. So to say simply
19 what I think you just said, if there were no
20 development order that was allowed to be
21 reactivated, the -- what additionally your
22 clients would have to do would -- you tell me if
23 this is correct what you just said -- they would
24 have to comply with the lower density, the
25 additional setback, and what else?
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Height.
2 TREASURER NELSON: And height --
3 MS. CHUMBLER: Height limitation.
4 TREASURER NELSON: And height limitation.
5 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Under -- if the original
7 development order is not reactivated -- is
8 reactivated --
9 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
10 TREASURER NELSON: -- they do not have to
11 comply with those three?
12 MS. CHUMBLER: If it is reactivated, you
13 have a resolution by the County that was
14 approved in 1993 prior to the adoption of the --
15 of the existing -- if it is existing --
16 Walton County Comprehensive Plan. There was
17 also a '90 Comprehensive Plan at -- in effect.
18 Now, the issue of whether we were
19 consistent with that plan still wasn't raised.
20 Our position would be that we were a vested
21 project, and, in fact, in the '95 order, the
22 county found we were a vested project --
23 TREASURER NELSON: Counselor, I don't know
24 what you just said.
25 MS. CHUMBLER: Okay.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Question number one --
2 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
3 TREASURER NELSON: -- if the development
4 order is reactivated --
5 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes.
6 TREASURER NELSON: -- would you have to
7 comply with the height limitation?
8 MS. CHUMBLER: No, sir.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Question
10 number two: If the development order is --
11 MS. CHUMBLER: Mr. Nelson, can --
12 TREASURER NELSON: -- reactiv--
13 MS. CHUMBLER: -- can I back up just a
14 second to make sure you're clear.
15 The development order that's before you
16 today was adopted before there was a height
17 limitation. There was no height limitation --
18 TREASURER NELSON: I understand. I
19 understand.
20 MS. CHUMBLER: That's what --
21 TREASURER NELSON: There is a height
22 limitation now in Walton County.
23 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
24 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. So question
25 number one: If the development order is
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1 reactivated, do you have to comply with the
2 height limitation today?
3 MS. CHUMBLER: No, sir.
4 TREASURER NELSON: And the answer is no.
5 MS. CHUMBLER: Right.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Question number two is:
7 If the development order is reactivated, do you
8 have to comply with today's density
9 requirement?
10 MS. CHUMBLER: No, sir.
11 TREASURER NELSON: The answer is no.
12 Thank you, Governor.
13 I can tell you on the basis of the answer
14 that was just given to me, I will vote against
15 reactivation of the development order.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I feel the
17 same way on it. But my -- I must go a little
18 bit further on that because we just -- we
19 just -- I mean, I think the timing of this issue
20 coming up is just bad.
21 You know, if it would have come up a couple
22 of weeks ago, you might have had a little
23 different problem.
24 But how we vote on this may have a
25 tremendous affect on how we vote on all issues
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1 on Coastal Construction Lines after storms.
2 This could be a bad precedent one way or the
3 other.
4 Governor, I'd like to see us defer the item
5 maybe to see what real effect this thing will
6 have. I have -- I know my vote today is no on
7 this because I don't have enough facts.
8 DER has not gone out, determined whether or
9 not we need a new Coastal Construction Line.
10 The County has not -- either -- we know
11 Bay County definitely needs one. I have a real
12 problem with this issue at this point in time.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could I ask a --
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It might be
15 unfair.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could I ask a
17 procedural question, Governor?
18 Is there any problem with deferring this
19 issue at this point in terms of the recommended
20 order, or are we running into any legal time
21 lines, et cetera?
22 MR. SMITH: Governor, members of the
23 Cabinet, I'm Greg Smith, the attorney for the
24 Cabinet.
25 There is a 90-day requirement that we
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1 consider a recommended order within that time
2 frame. However, the parties agree that can be
3 waived. And this is the last date, the Cabinet
4 date, within the 90-day framework.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I -- because I'm
6 going to echo something the General mentioned.
7 There is just some pieces here that are
8 coming to light that I think are going to be
9 very important, not only to this project, but
10 other projects like it in the future based on a
11 lot of things that may or may not -- and I'm not
12 trying to intermingle apples and oranges and
13 create new problems because of the hurricane and
14 the coastal development line.
15 But it's hard to stay away from that issue,
16 and others, that might come up relative to these
17 things.
18 So your bottom line is as long as the two
19 parties -- and I'm assuming that means the two
20 counsels here today --
21 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- would concur that
23 we could defer that issue until we get some more
24 information from staff.
25 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
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1 If I can address the Cabinet for just a
2 moment, I would like to sort of clarify one
3 issue, that we are here on the recommended
4 order. The recommended order does not reach the
5 issue of density.
6 The issue of density was raised in the '95
7 case, which I think counsel had alluded to,
8 there is a '95 case, it's at DOAH and currently
9 abated.
10 But the recommended order that came out of
11 DOAH did not issue -- reach the issue of
12 density. It only reached the issues of reviving
13 the DRI, and standing on some of the --
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So we will just be
15 wrestling with the density issue in a further
16 recommended order.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, let me ask you this
18 question, Greg --
19 MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- if it's reinstated
21 today --
22 MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- would that allow them
24 to not have to honor a new construction setback
25 line?
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1 MR. SMITH: It's my opinion, Governor, that
2 they would have to comply with the setback line
3 even though the development order would allow
4 them to have greater density.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: They would have to comply
6 with setback.
7 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: And that's -- that's what
9 I would like to do.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I assume --
11 Counsel, you're agreeing --
12 MS. CHUMBLER: I would say --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- that that is your
14 interpretation as well --
15 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- that regardless of
17 what action we take today, even if it is to
18 defer, that whatever the appropriate setback
19 line is at a future point in time, your
20 interpretation is that that project would have
21 to comply with that future setback line.
22 MS. CHUMBLER: Yes, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, I think
24 that -- that takes care of the concern that I
25 had. And I think we've raised a lot of issues
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1 here that, you know, for -- for our own
2 edification.
3 But as it relates to the hearing officer,
4 if he's correct, we ought to affirm what the
5 hearing officer said, if -- in view of the fact
6 that the project would have to adhere to any new
7 setback requirements that --
8 MS. WETHERELL: Can I comment on that,
9 because you asked me the question a minute ago.
10 And, you know, number one, we don't
11 anticipate that we will be establishing a new
12 control line. But either way, under the old or
13 under a new -- which we don't think there will
14 be one -- when they come in for a permit, they
15 would have to meet the standards of -- of that
16 time.
17 And so, you know, we anticipate when they
18 file an application for a permit, that that's
19 when they'll be meeting these environmental
20 tests, design and site. And so either way, they
21 have to meet those -- the standards of the rule.
22 TREASURER NELSON: But not the density nor
23 the height limitation --
24 MS. WETHERELL: That's not --
25 TREASURER NELSON: -- according --
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1 MS. WETHERELL: Yes. That's what --
2 TREASURER NELSON: -- according to the
3 counselor's response.
4 MS. WETHERELL: That's true. That's not
5 part of the Control Line.
6 TREASURER NELSON: And -- and it's my
7 understanding, and you tell me if this is true,
8 that Walton County has enacted a new density,
9 which is a lower density, and has enacted a
10 height restriction which was not in effect back
11 when this development was first started 13 years
12 ago; is that correct?
13 MR. THERIAQUE: That's correct, sir. They
14 have a 35 foot height limitation, and a density
15 of 12 dwelling units per acre, which would give
16 them approximately 84 units, instead of 282.
17 MS. CHUMBLER: Mr. Nelson, if I may just
18 say briefly, when you asked me those questions,
19 I answered them from my position. No
20 hearing officer has ruled on that issue.
21 Mr. Theriaque, I'm sure, will argue a different
22 position.
23 So you do not have a recommended order
24 before you today that says anything about what
25 would or would not be vested.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Right. And that's --
2 MS. CHUMBLER: That is my position. As an
3 attorney, I would argue that before you.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Yes. I understand
5 that.
6 But what we're doing, and I see our role as
7 sitting as a body of public policy. And where I
8 can defer to the local government's public
9 policy, I'm going to.
10 And the local government's public policy is
11 a 35 foot height limitation, and a density of
12 12 per acre.
13 MS. CHUMBLER: I would point --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, you just have to
15 counter that against the fact that you've got
16 the -- the objector here saying none of his
17 people object to the higher density if you built
18 it out the way it was.
19 You know, the question really is what the
20 hearing officer decided. The hearing officer
21 said -- it's a very narrow question, I think --
22 do you allow them to extend the date that's
23 expired.
24 Because we all know that it was
25 grandfathered in at greater exceptions. Times
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1 have changed tremendously. You said you want to
2 defer it to the County. I doubt if the County
3 wants you to defer to them on this one --
4 subject right now. I suspect they want to --
5 You know, but I think what we're talking
6 about is looking at the narrow question. The
7 hearing officer's decision is this thing was not
8 absolutely cut off, and thought it should be
9 extended.
10 There is some citing of things that that's
11 been done before, that's not an original new
12 question to me. That's what hearing officers
13 are for, to weigh into that.
14 On the policy question, you know, I agree,
15 I think that's within our thing to make the
16 policy on. It seems to me what you say, that a
17 setback line can be when they go for the permit,
18 it's going to be what the setback line is at
19 that time. That to me is the protection that
20 I'm seeking, to see that they don't have that.
21 And I would vote now for this narrow ruling
22 that the hearing officer's made to just concur
23 with that ruling, and let the thing go forward.
24 But I think we've discussed it long
25 enough. Let's get --
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Let's get
2 the question of it then. Because if we're going
3 back and saying that the owners, Governor, would
4 accept what -- the second half of the
5 horseshoe --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- they're
8 also saying that, wait a minute, the developer
9 promised us certain amenities that we do not
10 have. But they're saying, if they do the
11 horseshoe or anything else, we want our
12 amenities.
13 What amenities do you not have that you
14 were supposed to have?
15 MR. THERIAQUE: They were the -- some of
16 the usual amenities with a condominium project:
17 Racquetball courts, tennis courts, expanded
18 lobbies, walls were going to be knocked down to
19 expand a kitchen -- excuse me -- a conference
20 room, a kitchen, a child play area, things along
21 those lines, sir.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'm
23 surprised that the new person has not gone to
24 the old people -- to the old owners and said,
25 I'm going to give you those amenities. I'm
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1 surprised they didn't do that.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. What's your
3 pleasure?
4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I move that we
5 affirm the hearing officer's recommendation.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Been moved and seconded
8 that we affirm the hearing officer's
9 recommendation.
10 As many as favor the motion, signify by
11 saying aye.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Aye.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Aye.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Aye.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Aye.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
17 TREASURER NELSON: No.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No.
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We're three --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Sounds like it passed to
21 me.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I voted for it.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Hum?
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I voted for it.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: You voted for it.
2 TREASURER NELSON: What's it, 4-3?
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Four-three.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Four-three.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: By your votes, you've
6 approved the hearing officer's recommendation.
7 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
8 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
9 *
10
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25
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1 MS. WETHERELL: Board of Trustees.
2 Item 1, minutes.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
6 Without objection, minutes are approved.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Item 2 is a modification of
8 a submerged land lease.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
11 THE COURT: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, that's approved.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 3 we're
14 deferring at the applicant's request till
15 November the 29th.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move
18 deferral.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
22 Without objection, it's deferred.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 4, we're
24 recommending deferral until November 29th.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Move deferral.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, defer the item.
4 MS. WETHERELL: Item 5, three purchase
5 agreements for the South Savannas CARL project,
6 and a waiver of survey.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Item 6, purchase agreements
12 for Charlotte Harbor CARL project, and a waiver
13 of survey.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Item 7, two purchase
20 agreements.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Item 8, a waiver of the
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1 marketability of title.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, it's approved.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 9,
7 recommend withdrawal.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's withdrawn.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10, recommend approval
13 of a surplus state land bid.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Item 11, a lease renewal
20 and a delegation of authority.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Item 12, proposed rule
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BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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1 amendment.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, it's approved.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: They're
8 going to dismantle the cars in a couple of
9 minutes if anybody cares to watch a car being
10 dismantled in 4 minutes or less.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh. I need a motion to
12 approve the dates for the '96 --
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So move.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Clemency --
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, the
17 dates are approved.
18 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
19 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
20 *
21 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
22 11:56 a.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 116 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 3RD day of NOVEMBER, 1995.
17
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19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
