Reported by:
KRISTEN L.
BENTLEY
Certified Court Reporter
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS,
INC.
2894 REMINGTON GREEN
LANE
TALLAHASSEE, FL 32308 (850)878-2221
.
2
APPEARANCES:
Representing the Florida Cabinet:
JEB
BUSH
Governor
CHARLES H.
BRONSON
Commissioner of Agriculture
CHARLIE
CRIST
Attorney General
TOM
GALLAGHER
Chief Financial Officer
* * *
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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3
I N D E X
DIVISION OF BOND
FINANCE
(Presented by BEN WATKINS)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
5
2
Approved
5
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY
SAFETY
(Presented by FRED DICKINSON AND ROCKY McPHERSON)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
10
DEPARTMENT OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT
(Presented by GUY TUNNELL)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
11
2
Approved
12
ADMINISTRATION
COMMISSION
(Presented by TERESA TINKER AND COLLEEN CASTILLE)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
13
2
Approved
31
3
Approved
55
FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY
COMMISSION
(Presented by TERESA TINKER)
ITEM
ACTION
PAGE
1
Approved
56
2
Approved
56
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST
FUND
(Presented by COLLEEN
CASTILLE)
1
Approved
60
2
Approved
61
3
Approved
62
4
Approved
67
5
Approved
68
6
Approved
95
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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4
STATE BOARD OF
ADMINISTRATION
(Presented by COLEMAN STIPANOVICH)
1
Approved
98
2
Approved
98
3
Approved
98
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST
FUND
(Resumed)
(Presented by COLLEEN CASTILLE)
1
Deferred
170
2
Deferred
170
CERTIFICATE OF
REPORTER
171
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - MARCH 9,
2004
5
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
THE GOVERNOR: The next cabinet meeting will be
3 Tuesday, March 30th,
2004 at the Leesburg Opera House,
4 that's on West Main
Street in Leesburg, Florida. We hope
5 everybody -- we should
have asked all of our friends from
6 Ocala to -- we could
have deferred this to Leesburg, it
7 would have been easier
for you-all. But come on back --
8 after this meeting,
come on down to see us in Leesburg.
9 And I also wanted to
mention that we've got two or three
10 items on the agenda
that are probably pretty long agenda
11 items. They're
going to require a lot of people that have
12 come from other parts
of the state to comment on them.
13 And we're planning
for a lunch break which we don't
14 normally do.
But at 11:45, around then, we're going to
15 close it down for
about an hour and then we'll come back
16 and start up again at
12:45. So for the folks that are
17 here, as you watch
your watch, you may want to, if you
18 think you're going to
be on after the 12:45 agenda, you
19 can go out and see
the beautiful parts of our capitol. Go
20 up to the 22nd floor,
go see the, in the old capitol,
21 there is a museum of
political history. The museum of
22 history, the Gray
building down the hill, is also a nice
23 place to visit.
So you-all make your own plans
24 accordingly.
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - MARCH 9,
2004
6
1
THE GOVERNOR: Division of Bond Finance.
2
MR. WATKINS: Good morning.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
4
MR. WATKINS: Item No. 1 is approval of the minutes
5 of the February 26th
meeting.
6
GENERAL CRIST: Motion.
7
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
9 objection, the item
passes. Item 2?
10
MR. WATKINS: And Item 2 is a resolution authorizing
11 the competitive sale
of up to $8 million in revenue bonds
12 for a University of
Central Florida health facility.
13
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Move Item 2.
14
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
15
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
16 objection, the item
passes. Thank you, Ben.
17
MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - MARCH 9,
2004
7
1
THE GOVERNOR: Department of Highway Safety and Motor
2 Vehicles.
3
MR. DICKINSON: Governor, this is an item that was
4 deferred from the
previous cabinet meeting and these are
5 five new tags that we
have for your approval. The first
6 one is the Florida
Salutes Firefighters tag. And I think
7 Bob Carver is
here. This tag actually was approved right
8 after -- I think
several years ago right after 9/11. The
9 proceeds will go to
help firefighters involved in
10 organizations such as
Here's Help, Burn Centers, MDA, and
11 Ronald McDonald
Children's Charities.
12
THE GOVERNOR: I don't see Bob. Is he here?
13
MR. DICKINSON: He's here.
14
THE GOVERNOR: Hiding behind the plates. There he
15 is.
16
MR. CARVER: Thank you, Governor, and cabinet. We
17 appreciate it.
The Florida Firefighter's charities is our
18 statewide
charity. And the 67 counties that the proceeds
19 of this tag sale
comes from, those local charities, we're
20 going to see that
those funds are dispersed back to the
21 local level.
But, again, thank you for Florida saluting
22 firefighters and the
work and the dedication that the
23 25,000 men and women
of this state do. And we want to see
24 the citizens of
Florida proudly display that tag. Thank
25 you for your
support.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - MARCH 9,
2004
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Bob.
2
MR. DICKINSON: Governor, the other four tags are the
3 Air Force, Army, Coast
Guard and Navy tags. And we have a
4 group here. I
think the colonel has got some people also
5 to introduce as well
as the sponsors of the legislation,
6 Senator Fasano and
Representative Jordan, if they'd come
7 forward.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Welcome, gentlemen.
9
SENATOR FASANO: Good morning. Governor, members of
10 the cabinet, thank
you very much. The plates that we were
11 able to pass through
a piece of legislation signed by you,
12 Governor, honors all
of our men and women who served in
13 our military, our
heroes here in the state of Florida. As
14 you know, we have a
veterans license plate. We also have
15 a Marine Corps
license plate. Now we will include a Navy,
16 Army, Air Force and
Coast Guard.
17
As, like the veterans license plate and the Marine
18 Corps license plate,
the dollars that we will receive from
19 these specialty
license plates will go to continue to
20 serve our veterans in
the veterans nursing homes in
21 providing dollars to
those veterans in services and along
22 with continuing the
building of veterans nursing homes
23 throughout the state
of Florida. And I thank you very
24 much.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Mike. Thanks for your hard
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE - MARCH 9,
2004
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1 work on behalf of the
enlisted men and the vets and the
2 national guard,
reservists. You're doing great work in
3 terms of
legislation.
4
How are you, Stan? Good morning.
5
REPRESENTATIVE JORDAN: Thank you, Governor and
6 cabinet. The
plates that Senator Fasano mentioned, these
7 are plates of
pride. These are pride for service, for the
8 respect, by family
members, by participants and also,
9 Governor, it's a
symbol of opportunity. We must keep in
10 mind that the largest
educational institution in America
11 under one
organization is the United States military.
12 From that, our young
people, since we're committed to
13 education, a lot of
them who do not have a chance to go to
14 college and even
those who go to college can continue
15 their educational
expansion through the wonderful
16 opportunities in the
United States military.
17
And, Governor, members of the cabinet, I stand before
18 you today as a living
symbol of this opportunity. 48
19 years ago this month
I wore the Army uniform for the first
20 time and came from a
family, my mother was one of 18
21 children. My
daddy raised seven children before he got to
22 me. I was the
first one to get a high school education
23 and I went on to
become an officer and a pilot in the
24 United States
military. For that, I am grateful to this
25 country. And I
hope you will wear this tag and display
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DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY - March 9,
2004
10
1 this tag with great pride. Thank you.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Stan.
3
Thank you for last Tuesday, by the way, as well.
4 That was a beautiful
ceremony you put together.
5
Yes, Rocky.
6
MR. McPHERSON: Governor, just some final comments to
7 thank, first, our
legislative sponsors. Both Senator
8 Fasano and
Representative Jordan are truly Legislators
9 with veterans in their
heart. And having the funds from
10 these plates, all
four of them, go to our nursing home
11 program, that will be
a valuable asset. They have a
12 potential to raise
about a million dollars a year that we
13 use for upkeep in
keeping these facilities first class.
14
Secondly, Director Dickinson and his staff, Paula
15 Stanfield, have
worked through the design process with us,
16 superb cooperation,
and we got it done in a pretty short
17 period of time.
And finally we have a couple of service
18 reps here -- Captain
Royal Logan. Royal, if you would
19 stand, United States
Navy. Colonel Charley Price, United
20 States Army -- are
here to represent their services. And
21 I'd like to thank the
governor and the cabinet for their
22 action today and for
your support for our department and
23 our veterans.
24
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Rocky. I've been told, I
25 can't see, but
Senator Atwater and Senator Klein are here
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY - March 9,
2004
11
1 who were supportive of
the firefighters plate. Thank you
2 so much for being
here. In fact, why don't you bring your
3 plates up and we'll
get a picture, all of our guests.
4
Department of -- you got more?
5
MR. DICKINSON: No, sir. Did you move the item?
6
THE GOVERNOR: No, we didn't. Thank you for bringing
7 that up.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion.
9
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
11 objection, the item
passes.
12
MR. DICKINSON: Thank you, Governor.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT - MARCH 9,
2004
12
1
THE GOVERNOR: FDLE. Motion on Item 1.
2
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
3
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
5 objection, Item 1
passes. Guy, how are you doing?
6
MR. TUNNELL: Thank you, Governor. Good morning,
7 cabinet members.
Can I sit back down?
8
THE GOVERNOR: Item 2.
9
MR. TUNNELL: Item 2. I'd like to respectfully
10 submit three rules
for adoption in Title 11 of the Florida
11 Administrative
Code. These rules revise, amend and
12 clarify officer
discipline standards and procedures within
13 the Criminal Justice
Standards and Training Commission.
14 The rule changes
continue to maintain the highest level of
15 professionalism
expected of our officers. I should note
16 that the development
of these rules was a collaborative
17 effort between both
the Criminal Justice Standards and
18 Training Commission
as well as the Florida PBA and other
19 union
representatives. We got a few of the members in the
20 audience, I
believe. Some of their leadership helped work
21 on this. If you
approve the rules today, they will take
22 effect on or after
March the 30th.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 2.
24
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT - MARCH 9,
2004
13
1 objection -- any
discussion? (No response.) Without
2 objection, the item
passes.
3
MR. TUNNELL: Thank you, sir. For the record, I
4 drink a glass of
orange juice, a large glass of orange
5 juice every day.
6
THE GOVERNOR: You're my role model.
7
MR. TUNNELL: What is it? A day without orange juice
8 is like a day without
sunshine. Thank you.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
2004
14
1
THE GOVERNOR: Administration commission. Tsquare,
2 how are you doing?
3
MS. TINKER: Real good, Governor. How are you doing?
4
THE GOVERNOR: Item 1.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes.
6
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
7
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
8 objection. Item
1 is passed.
9
Item 2.
10
MS. TINKER: Item 2, Request authorization to
11 initiate rulemaking
to amend the comprehensive plans of
12 Monroe County and the
city of Marathon. I'll just add,
13 Governor, that staff
recommends no further action on the
14 village of Islamorada
at this time other than to recognize
15 that they have made
significant commitments toward the key
16 issues of wastewater,
affordable housing, and land
17 acquisition.
And they'll be, on their own, amending their
18 comprehensive
plan. We have several speakers this
19 morning,
Governor. The speakers have agreed to limit
20 their time.
21
THE GOVERNOR: To what?
22
MS. TINKER: To two minutes each.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
24
MS. TINKER: We're going to start with Secretary
25 Castille.
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
2004
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1
THE GOVERNOR: I don't see her. This is a tradition
2 that was started by
David Struhs.
3
(Laughter.)
4
CFO GALLAGHER: Never show up on time.
5
THE GOVERNOR: I thought that this would be --
6
CFO GALLAGHER: It's when you're important, you don't
7 have to be here.
8
THE GOVERNOR: -- the Castille era would be different
9 since she was the
chief cabinet aide but no.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: Oh, here she is.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Glad you could make it, Colleen.
12
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, sir. I was trying to
13 convince the
Dunnellon people we were moving more quickly
14 than anticipated and
to stay here.
15
THE GOVERNOR: Are we?
16
MS. CASTILLE: I think we are.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Don't leave us if we're moving fast.
18
MS. CASTILLE: It appears that we are. Governor and
19 cabinet, members of
-- Governor, members of the cabinet,
20 I'd like to give you
an update on our activities with the
21 communities of Monroe
County and the interest groups based
22 on our last meeting
on the administration commission rule.
23
When we last left the cabinet meeting, there were
24 some concerns that
the commitments from the community
25 level were not quite
as strong as we needed them to be and
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
2004
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1 that there was not
comfort on how much land we were able
2 to protect with
acquisition and with some of the rules
3 that the County would
impose for habitat protection.
4
What have we've done with the County and the
5 community since that
time is to meet with them in a public
6 meeting, go over the
tier process and the habitat
7 protection plan that
they propose for their land
8 development
regulations. And just to sort of wrap it up,
9 what we've done is
we've come to you with a
10 410-million-dollar
commitment from the State and local
11 level for land
acquisition, central wastewater, and
12 affordable
housing.
13
The water quality continues to decline if we do
14 nothing in the
Keys. And so stopping development and
15 stopping permits will
not get us to the desired goal.
16 It's necessary to
have the commitments for the wastewater.
17 And in order to do
that, the most important thing on the
18 community level is to
provide for an economically diverse
19 community and to
provide for affordable housing. So what
20 we're recommending
here for you today is a restoration of
21 some permits that
were lost in the past. But all of those
22 permits will now go
for affordable housing in all three
23 communities,
Islamorada, Marathon, and Monroe County for
24 affordable housing in
perpetuity.
25
And for that, we are happy to be in partnership with
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
2004
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1 the communities and I
know that not everybody is happy
2 with this. And
generally, I would love to always bring to
3 you something that
everyone is happy with. But we commit
4 that we are going to
develop wisely in the Keys and
5 slowly. But to
make sure that we do provide for the
6 humans' needs as well
as the environmental needs. And we
7 do have some
presenters here and I'm going to let Theresa
8 bring them up.
9
MS. TINKER: The next four speakers are representing
10 environmental
interests in the Keys. Richard Grosso,
11 Charles Pattison,
Eric Draper and Marianne Giggenbach.
12 And they can announce
who they are representing when they
13 come up.
14
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
15
MR. GROSSO: Thank you. Good morning, Governor,
16 members of the
cabinet. Richard Grosso. I'm here
17 representing Florida
Keys Citizens Coalition World
18 Wildlife Fund, last
stand in the key deer protection
19 alliance. In
December, you heard about the studies of the
20 caring capacity
study. We shouldn't lose any more
21 habitat, we have
species going extinct. We have a
22 critical problem with
habitat loss and shouldn't lose any
23 more.
24
You were reminded of the water quality findings.
25 We've exceeded the
limits of pollution in the Keys. You
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
2004
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1 were reminded of the
hurricane evacuation problem. We are
2 over the 24-hour
evacuation limit. The proposed concept
3 to you, which suggests
that you adopt a rule that
4 increases the rate of
growth in the face of those facts,
5 is wholly
inappropriate in our opinion.
6
Increasing the rate of growth in the face of those
7 compelling facts with
each growth limit having been
8 exceeded simply
doesn't make sense. We would hope that
9 you would direct your
staff that as it goes through the
10 rulemaking process,
when a final rule comes back to you
11 later this spring or
early in the summer, that that issue,
12 the facts, really be
looked at and that issue be
13 addressed.
14
The new thing that has changed to where they're
15 suggesting it would
change your opinion that substantial
16 progress wasn't made,
that the dollar commitments and a
17 moratorium proposed
on habitat loss. The moratorium is
18 short term and it's
full of holes. It's a moratorium on
19 habitat loss in a
small subset of the important habitat
20 areas. That's
important that you understand that. The
21 dollar commitments
are good. We fully support the
22 increased dollars for
acquisition for wastewater. But
23 they're not different
than the commitments that have been
24 there in the past and
haven't been lived up to.
25
So increasing the rate of growth, repealing the
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
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1 requirement that new
nutrients be offset every year, are
2 not appropriate
responses, even to the good things that
3 are in this
rule. So, again, we would ask that you direct
4 your staff to take a
hard look at the environmental and
5 the economic facts,
remembering that in that in the Keys
6 the environment is the
economy. It is a multi hundred
7 million dollars,
hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
8 The environment in the
Keys contributes to the economy.
9 It is not doing the
Keys a favor necessarily to increase
10 the rate of
destruction of hammocks and increase the rate
11 of water pollution in
the Keys. Please keep that in mind
12 as you go through
this process.
13
Again, the concept that they're asking you to submit
14 to rulemaking is a
very bad one, a very ill-conceived one
15 in terms of what it
does to the rate of growth, what it
16 does not do to
habitat protection. But we do support the
17 dollar figures if
those commitments are lived up to in the
18 past. But we
don't have a good history of living up to
19 those commitments in
the Keys. And increasing the rate of
20 growth while we wait
and see what happens is not a good
21 idea. Thank you
for your time. Thank you for your
22 attention to this
critical matter.
23
(Applause.)
24
MR. PATTISON: Governor, my name is Charles Pattison.
25 I'm the executive
director of 1,000 Friends of Florida.
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1 Thank you for
listening to our comments. We were here
2 last December 16th as
well when you heard the report that
3 substantial progress
had not been made. And we were very
4 pleased too that a lot
of discussion has taken place
5 that's resulting in
some additional commitments. At the
6 same time, we
understand that hurricane evacuation
7 clearance times have
been exceeded. And as you know,
8 that's a fundamental
basis for the whole comprehensive
9 planning process in
the Keys.
10
We've also had time to look at the agreements that
11 your staff and DCA
have negotiated. And we too would
12 support the idea that
this tremendous infusion of dollars
13 is a critical part of
the solution to better environmental
14 help in the
Keys. We've looked at those concepts too.
15 And we have a few
points that we think ought to be
16 emphasized by the
administration commission as rulemaking
17 goes forward.
I've just got four of those.
18
One does deal with the moratorium and what it
19 actually
encompasses. I think there is a question about
20 the land area that's
actually included. We thought it
21 would be helpful to
have some clarity added to the rule
22 for that. Also,
it's how long the moratorium stays in
23 place. We would
hope that it stays in place no longer
24 than is minimally
necessary. But it has to be however
25 long it takes to get
the county's land development
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
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1 regulations and
comprehensive plan updated.
2
I've mentioned that the dollars are very significant.
3 I think it would be
helpful if the chart that your staff
4 prepared at the -- for
the age presentation a week ago
5 could actually be
referenced as part of the rule. I think
6 it's very easy then to
see what the commitments are for
7 all parties.
8
Affordable housing, I don't know of any group that
9 has opposed increasing
affordable housing in the Keys. I
10 think that is a
critical issue. The thing we had
11 suggested was that
the ratio between market rate housing
12 and affordable
housing be changed. I mentioned that to
13 Chairman Murray of
the Keys and he had said he thinks the
14 Keys numbers
currently are about 60 percent market rate,
15 40 percent affordable
housing. That would be great if
16 that could be
memorialized. Anything that increases that
17 ratio would be
helpful.
18
The commitment though on the financial particulars,
19 we think, ought to be
tied to specific performance
20 measurements.
Any increases in permits ought to be
21 directly tied to
whether or not the wastewater facilities
22 are on line and
providing the credits. I know that's the
23 concern that a lot of
us have about the nutrient credits,
24 they're based on
future wastewater facilities being on
25 line. So
hopefully they get built. But if not, those
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION - MARCH 9,
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1 credits would have
already been given.
2
The last point, this hurricane evacuation that's
3 mentioned in the
potential agreement, that cannot be
4 allowed to slip at
all, that's a key piece. We would hope
5 that the benchmarks
could be set so that the performance
6 measurements of that
study could be closely tracked.
7
So those are the four points that we would like to
8 see specifically added
to your direction to the staff and
9 the rulemaking.
Thank you.
10
MS. TINKER: I'm scanning the crowd for Eric Draper.
11 But I don't see
Eric. So, Marianne, you want to come on
12 up?
13
MS. GIGGENBACH: Good morning, Governor. Marianne
14 Giggenbach with The
Nature Conservancy. We see this as an
15 important step in the
process and we want to commend
16 Secretary Castille
and all the people who worked on this
17 to make it happen,
the County, et cetera. And I think
18 that it's
unprecedented in the sense that we accomplished
19 some good things in a
short period of time. You've heard,
20 however, that there
are still some concerns along the way.
21 And I think that what
we would advocate is that as
22 rulemaking goes
forward, that it stays an open process,
23 that it is something
where the parties are held
24 accountable in a very
open way for meeting the things that
25 have been agreed to
so that this program and this
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1 agreement does not in
some way become compromised down the
2 road.
3
So for us, I think that we think it's an important
4 step forward but we
really want the State to continue its
5 hands-on approach to
this to make sure that everything
6 gets followed through
on in a good way for this special
7 place that we call the
Keys. Thank you.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you.
9
MS. TINKER: Next we'll move to the local government
10
representatives. First is Scott Janke, city manager with
11 the City of
Marathon.
12
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
13
MR. JANKE: Good morning, Governor and cabinet
14 members. I'd
like to first apologize, Randy Mearns, the
15 mayor for Marathon
couldn't be here today. We have a
16 council meeting in
Marathon tonight and you never know
17 what the airlines are
going to do. But I'd like that
18 thank also, Secretary
Castille and her staff for all the
19 work that's been done
in the last four or five months to
20 get us so far.
21
The proposal that's in your hands now, I think is
22 fair and
equitable. It helps the City of Marathon, which
23 is 12,000 people,
commit $60 million to build sewer
24 systems to help us
clean up the Keys. The amount of
25 increased housing
that would be allowed under the
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1 proposal, six houses a
year for the market rate, is not
2 going to adversely
impact us. As a matter of fact, it
3 will help us with
infill development and help us build an
4 economic base that we
could help use then to pay for that
5 $60 million.
6
THE GOVERNOR: Glad you brought that up.
7
MR. JANKE: Thank you. And we are not upside down in
8 market rate to afford
real growth right now. As a matter
9 of fact, if you
approve this agreement and we get rules
10 written to do it, the
City of Marathon will have put
11 something along the
lines of 200 to 210 affordable housing
12 units in place this
past year compared with 19 market rate
13 homes. So to
get to any kind of a 50/50 mix will take
14 years of increased
market rates. Hurricane evacuation --
15
THE GOVERNOR: So is the mix -- the mix is not the
16 same in the rest of
the Keys, is it?
17
MR. JANKE: Well, no. There's actually an 80/20 mix
18 currently.
There's been some discussion of having you-all
19 change, through
rulemaking, that to be 50/50 or even turn
20 it over the other
way. What I'm saying is in reality,
21 because we focused so
much on affordable housing in the
22 last year, we'll have
about 200 to 210 units going into
23 the ground over the
next year of affordable housing, yet
24 only about 19 market
rate, which helps us build that tax
25 base to support
building sewers, building storm water
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1 control systems,
setting aside land for habitat
2 protection. The
rule is fair and equitable on both sides.
3 And I commend your
staff, the cabinet aides, for spending
4 enough time to listen
to us the last few times we've been
5 here and I appreciate
all the help. Please don't let us
6 fail.
7
I was in Washington a week ago doing the same
8 discussion with people
back there and I plead one thing,
9 Don't let us
fail. Everybody is watching.
10
THE GOVERNOR: How could we let you -- we're not
11 going to let you
fail, but don't fail.
12
MR. JANKE: We're not going to fail.
13
THE GOVERNOR: It's typical, you know, we'll be
14 blamed if you
fail. We're not going to let you.
15
MR. JANKE: We have a 100-million-dollar sewer
16 project for the
12,000 residents in Marathon.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Just build it.
18
MR. JANKE: 60 million of our own money and we're
19 looking to the
federal --
20
THE GOVERNOR: Build it and make it technologically
21 appropriate and make
sure it's done the right way and
22 we're going to back
it up with our commitment. For the
23 people that are here
that may not have had this -- been
24 part of this debate
for the last decade or more, this is a
25 pretty dramatic
departure where instead of the State just
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1 saying, Thou shalt not
do this, basically command and
2 control saying you
can't do things, we're saying a little
3 of that. And
we're also saying, Here is money, $93
4 million for land
acquisition, $18 million that we're
5 hopefully,
Representative Paul is here, the Legislature
6 will appropriate for
providing support. And the county --
7 for Marathon, for
example, that's $5,000 per person.
8 They're making a
commitment, citizens of this community,
9 $5,000 per person to
build a sewer system. This is a
10 totally different
approach and I just commend all of the
11 municipalities that
have stepped up, some reluctantly.
12 You-all have been
there from the get-go and we just
13 appreciate it.
14
MR. JANKE: Well, thank you. And the City of
15 Marathon has
committed itself to doing the right thing.
16 We simply asked for
some assistance from you folks. Thank
17 you very much.
18
THE GOVERNOR: Don't use the "F" word again though.
19
MS. TINKER: The next speaker is Mayor Murray Nelson
20 from Monroe
County. And while Mayor Nelson is coming up,
21 I just want to remind
you that the City of Key West is not
22 included in this
rulemaking action today. You did
23 continue the
designation for the City of Key West and we
24 just want to make
sure Key West understands that if there
25 are dollars
appropriated by the Legislature, they would be
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1 eligible to receive
some of those dollars as well because
2 they made significant
strides, particularly in their
3 wastewater and storm
water issues.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Mayor, welcome back.
5
MAYOR NELSON: It's very good to be here this
6 morning. I hope
everyone had a nice evening last night
7 and it's a pleasure to
be here, Governor. Cabinet
8 members, I want to
thank you very much for all your
9 participation and I've
really been impressed with the
10 knowledge that your
staff has about Keys issues. I would
11 like to have convey
the appreciation of the Board of
12 Monroe County
Commissioners and the cities of Islamorada
13 and Marathon for your
interest in the Florida Keys.
14
This partnership will provide an opportunity for the
15 state of Florida and
Monroe County to address our common
16 goals of meeting the
requirements of 2820 and the Monroe
17 County comprehensive
plan. I would like to personally
18 thank Teresa Tinker
and the governor's staff for their
19 patience in reaching
this agreement and for their
20 knowledge of the Keys
issues. As mayor, I've signed the
21 Florida Keys comp
certificate for Colleen Castille and I
22 cannot think of
anyone more worthy. Colleen Castille, Jim
23 Quinn, Rebecca Deton
(phonetic) and their aides have made
24 the partnership
possible by instilling a sense of trust
25 with all the involved
parties.
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1
I would also like to thank all the environmental
2 groups who have
supported this issue and to address the
3 needs of the
environmentally sensitive lands, wastewater
4 and workforce
housing. And last but not least, I would
5 like to thank
Representative Sorensen for his tireless
6 efforts to ensure this
agreement was brought to an
7 equitable
solution.
8
Governor and cabinet members, thank you for your
9 leadership and
courage, for your consideration of this
10 proposal presented
here today by your staff and DCA A new
11 dawn has risen over
Monroe County and the relationship we
12 have with the State
of Florida. I am proud to have shared
13 in this historical
endeavor and I am thrilled that this
14 agreement will be
implemented under your administration.
15 God bless you and
yours and a hardy attaboy for all who
16 have
participated. And thank you very much for having us
17 here today.
18
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Mayor. I want to make sure
19 that we get a tape of
your very eloquent remarks so that
20 Teresa Tinker who's
been working on this longer than I've
21 been in public
service can have it for her memoirs. Very
22 kind of you to say
that. Appreciate it.
23
MS. TINKER: The last speaker on this item is
24 Representative Ken
Sorensen.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Representative Sorenson, you say
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1 something nice too
--
2
(Laughter.)
3
CFO GALLAGHER: Don't be too nice, nobody will
4 believe it.
5
(Laughter.)
6
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning, Representative.
7
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: Good morning, my governor
8 and my cabinet.
It's great to see you. And I do have
9 some good things to
say, all nice things. Yes, yes. The
10 big bear has probably
gone away. Okay. This really is,
11 as we say in the
House, this is a great day in the state
12 of Florida. For
the first time in 27 years an issue that
13 brought me back out
of private life to try and resolve
14 this issue, which I
could never do by myself, and there
15 are a lot of people I
have to thank in that process. And,
16 Governor, that starts
with you. The reality was this
17 problem has been here
all along. And what the problem was
18 we said, We're going
to save the Florida Keys. You can't
19 use your land and
there is just nothing we're going to do
20 about that.
21
For the first time in the history of almost a quarter
22 of a century, you and
your people have stepped forward and
23 allowed us to get
away from that conundrum. The reality
24 is the
93-million-dollar commitment for purchasing lands,
25 the $18 million in
your budget, and we have Jerry Paul
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1 here. I've asked
him to hang around to make sure he
2 understood how
important this is. The entire cost of this
3 project is going to be
a billion dollars. It would not
4 happen, we would not
have made the progress without your
5 leadership. And
I really wanted to say that.
6
Also, for Monroe County, for the city of Islamorada,
7 for Marathon, Key
West, Key County Beach, and I don't
8 think I left anybody
out, but everyone came together in
9 this process to put
this 410 million-dollar package
10 together. We've
got a great opportunity. Now there may
11 be some people up
there that when my good friend the
12 governor leaves, it
may be the governor at some time in
13 the future, but I
want you to understand this is the
14 beginning of the
process and we're going to need to
15 continue to fund this
thing as time goes on and we just
16 can't make this a
one-shot deal.
17
I thank you for everything you've done, Governor.
18 The reality is that
we've never had such a real
19 partnership
before. We have an opportunity. I also would
20 like to thank my new
friend Teresa Tinker and my new
21 friend Colleen
Castille. Anyway, I think we've made
22 progress for the
first time and I thank you, Governor.
23 We've got a great
opportunity here. Let's move forward
24 and let's not let the
boat get rocked. Thank you, sir.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Don't everybody start crying.
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1
(Laughter.)
2
REPRESENTATIVE SORENSEN: If I can, what I sent up
3 there to you is --
there've been some articles that said
4 there was a boom going
on in the Florida Keys. That's the
5 1990 and the 2000
census. Correction, the 1990 and the
6 2000 census. If
you look at it, I think you'll see we've
7 gown by just a little
over 1,000 since 1990. There is no
8 boom.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Well, we got a -- the State has a
10 responsibility to be
a significant partner in this. And I
11 worry a lot about not
the fancy people that we all aspire
12 to be to be able to
live in the Keys, but the folks that
13 work in county
government, work in city government,
14 they're teachers,
they're nurses that provide services for
15 people in the Keys,
they can't afford to live there. So
16 we have to find a way
to expand affordable housing or the
17 schools won't be open
and emergency rooms won't work and
18 the quality of life
for the basics won't exist. So I
19 think this is a good
first step. And Ken, I appreciate
20 you saying it's a
first step. And I don't know why you're
21 counting on Jerry
Paul to help you out since he's a
22 short-timer, he's
leaving in a couple of months to go to
23 Washington.
That's the best you can do?
24
(Laughter.)
25
Any other speakers?
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1
MS. TINKER: No, sir. Staff requests authorization
2 to initiate the
rulemaking process.
3
CFO GALLAGHER: Governor, I'd like to say something
4 if I may, real
quickly. Just I want to let everybody know
5 that Senator Bullard
made sure, that's her district, that
6 we all heard from her,
at least I sure did. And I want to
7 thank Colleen for her
continued hard work on this. I'm
8 very encouraged by how
far DCA and Monroe County have come
9 really in three
months. And just want to remind everybody
10 that this just really
initiates rulemaking. And the
11 environmentalists
should participate in that rulemaking
12 because that's where
the rubber meets the road. And by us
13 starting this, their
concerns should be included in the
14 process. And I
look forward to you coming to us with a
15 proposed rule.
And with that, I'll move the issue.
16
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
17
THE GOVERNOR: There's a motion and a second. Any
18 other
discussion? Without objection, the motion passes.
19 Thank you very
much.
20
MS. TINKER: Item 3 deals with the University of
21 South Florida campus
master plan. Staff recommends
22 entering the amended
draft final order. Again, Governor,
23 we have several
speakers who have agreed to limit their
24 time. We're
going to start with the Intervenors in the
25 proceeding.
First speaker is Steve Pfieffer representing
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1 Dr. Mullins and Andrea
Ginsky.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. How are
3 you doing? Good
morning.
4
MR. PFIEFER: Good morning. Governor, members of the
5 cabinet, my name is
Steve Pfieffer. I'm here representing
6 two of the petitioners
in this proceeding, Dr. David
7 Mullins and Ms. Andrea
Ginsky. They are not here today,
8 they apologize for
that. Dr. Mullins is teaching a
9 calculus class at this
very moment. Ms. Ginsky works with
10 the public library in
Sarasota and needed to be there
11 today. Dr.
Mullins and Ms. Ginsky live directly adjacent
12 to the south border
of what will be the Sarasota, Manatee
13 branch of the
University of South Florida.
14
THE GOVERNOR: Is it possible do we have a map? Keep
15 going. We'll
work on it.
16
MS. TINKER: We'll work on it. We'll find one.
17
(Thereupon the map was displayed.)
18
MR. PFIEFER: I'll put my finger on where their lots
19 are.
20
THE GOVERNOR: That won't work. Have to put your
21 finger on the
map.
22
MR. PFIEFER: About halfway down the southern border
23 of the university
campus, which is to the left of the
24 screen of the
proposed campus, is where Dr. Mullins and
25 Ms. Ginsky
live. One of their properties is directly
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1 adjacent to the
border.
2
THE GOVERNOR: If you could. I apologize if you
3 could point on that
piece of paper.
4
CFO GALLAGHER: Now put your finger there.
5
THE GOVERNOR: Put your finger -- thank you.
6 Appreciate it.
7
MR. PFIEFER: Yes, sir. Sorry for my failure of
8 technology
there. One of their lots is directly adjacent
9 to the border.
Their other two lots are one narrow lot
10 away. The
impacts of the campus on them are potentially
11 huge. They are
residential properties that they own.
12 It's where they
live. The impacts relate to light noise
13 and potential
intrusions into their neighborhood from
14 parking and
pedestrian interactions with their
15 neighborhood.
Their issues in this proceeding have always
16 been compatibility
issues, compatibility of the campus,
17 with a 350-car
parking lot that's located 50 feet from
18 their properties.
19
This campus is a difficult site for a number of
20 reasons. It is
a small site and especially a small site
21 for the size of a
campus that is being proposed. In fact,
22 once this campus is
developed, it will be the most
23 intensely developed
campus in the university system.
24 There are
environmental constraints on the campus and
25 there are
compatibility constraints on the campus that
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1 make designing this
campus in a manner that will
2 accommodate these
interests very difficult.
3
We have some issues with the campus master planning
4 process. For
example, your own staff spent time with one
5 of the witnesses in
this proceeding, all without any
6 opportunity for
cross-examination by the other parties in
7 this case, all without
any opportunities for rebuttal from
8 the parties of this
case. There are some things you may
9 here with regard to
this campus and that is this is --
10 that there will be
future local permitting processes --
11 there will not
be. This process is not like a local
12 government
comprehensive planning process where you would
13 have a comprehensive
plan implementing land development
14 regulations and
finally a development order all required
15 to be compatible with
one another. This campus master
16 planning document is
the only enforceable document that
17 there will be.
It is, in effect, the land development
18 regulations, it is,
in effect, the development order.
19
You may hear that this only a plan, that we'll flesh
20 out other issues
later. But there will be no enforceable
21 later with regard to
this plan. You also may hear that
22 there is requirements
to be compliant with Manatee County
23 land development
regulations, and there absolutely are not
24 any requirements for
that. And the 50-foot buffer, in
25 fact, is what is
required under the Manatee land
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1 development
regulations to buffer properties like this.
2 But there are many
other requirements in those land
3 development
regulations too regarding lighting, regarding
4 noise, none of which
have been applied to this campus.
5
We believe that a host local government has not been
6 treated as such.
I understand that is a legal issue and
7 one that continues to
follow this case. We feel that it
8 would be irresponsible
of us to raise these issues and not
9 offer a fix. And
we have offered a fix. We have provided
10 some provisions that
if they were included with the plan,
11 would accomplish
rendering it compatible with the
12 residential
neighborhood. These proposals all relate to
13 lighting. They
relate to noise and they relate to
14 potential pedestrian
and traffic impacts into our
15 residential
neighborhood. None of these have found their
16 way into the proposed
order.
17
We certainly would hope that the neighbors of this
18 campus would get the
same protection that every other
19 citizen of Manatee
County gets which would be assurance
20 that the project
will, and the buffering of the project
21 will be consistent
with the land development regulations
22 in Manatee
County. We do appreciate that there has been a
23 date established for
when the so-called opacity issues
24 will be met.
But other than that, there has been no
25 commitment to abide
by the land development regulations in
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1 Manatee County.
2
The -- there was no analysis during the course of
3 this process
undertaken with regard to lighting impacts on
4 the adjoining
neighborhood, with regard to noise impacts
5 on the adjoining
neighborhood, and with regard to
6 potential off-site
parking and pedestrian impacts on this
7 neighborhood, no
analysis at all. We do appreciate your
8 listening to us.
We appreciate it. Many people have
9 worked hard during
this process. We have too. We
10 continue to have
these issues. We have no wish to
11 continue pursuing
these issues in legal proceedings. We
12 would rather pursue
them as matters to be resolved so that
13 we can be good
neighbors and so can the campus. We'd be
14 happy to answer any
questions and I appreciate your
15 attention.
16
THE GOVERNOR: I think there may be questions.
17
MS. TINKER: The next speaker is Betsy Roberts
18 representing the
Sierra Club, Manatee, Sarasota group.
19
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
20
MS. ROBERTS: Good morning, Governor Bush and members
21 of the cabinet.
I am Betsy Roberts, chair of the Manatee
22 Sarasota Sierra club,
a volunteer who has driven six
23 hours, given up two
days of work as a home health nurse,
24 and then paid been
nothing to attend this meeting. I am
25 also missing my first
election in 42 years so you can
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1 figure out how old I
am. During the last one and a half
2 years I have spent
days at hearings and doing research on
3 this proposed
expansion. After reading the original draft
4 order I was generally
pleased with the preservation and
5 conservation of this
unique habitat by the DCA
6
But after the unilateral changes made during the
7 midnight amendment on
Friday with none of the Petitioners
8 present, I lost all
confidence in our system. All that
9 was good in the
original order was literally stricken,
10 leaving USF free to
destroy one of the last coastal upland
11 areas of the west
coast of Florida and, with it, rare
12 plants, gopher
tortoises and frogs who live together and
13 are both
listed. They are listed because of loss and
14 fragmentation of
their habitat. This will be accomplished
15 with the proposed
roads, classrooms and administration
16 buildings of this new
campus.
17
An ecosystem is extremely difficult to recreate and
18 this has been
recommended by USF. The tortoise may not
19 look smart, but
remember that famous race and who won.
20 The tortoise can and
does select its optimum environment
21 for life. It is
well-documented that it has voted for
22 this with its
feet. Unfortunately, it does not fit into
23 the USF campus master
plan. I urge you to reconsider the
24 expansion of USF on
this unique classroom on Sarasota Bay
25 when there are other
viable alternatives. Thank you very
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1 much.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you for being here.
3
MS. TINKER: Next speaker is Renee Sansoucy, followed
4 by Claudia Cuomo.
5
MS. SANSOUCY: Good morning.
6
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
7
MS. SANSOUCY: My name is Renee Sansoucy and I am one
8 of the seven
Petitioners in this case. I'm also a
9 resident of the
uplands. The reason I got involved in
10 this process in the
first place is the very real fear that
11 I will lose my home
through USF's right to imminent
12 domain. It's
obvious that not if, but when USF outgrows
13 Crossley, they have
nowhere to go but the uplands.
14
As I got further involved, it became painfully clear
15 that the Crossley
site is grossly inadequate in size and
16 has way too many
constraints to accommodate the needs of a
17 full-blown university
campus. I have come this far
18 without legal
representation and I have learned a great
19 deal the hard way
about this process, which to say the
20 least leaves a lot to
be desired. It's been a long,
21 frustrating, not to
mention expensive, journey to get to
22 this point.
Dealing with USF who alleges to be a good
23 neighbor has been
less than encouraging. In fact, all of
24 our concerns fell on
deaf ears up until the DCA, hearings.
25
For the first time since the process began, someone
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1 was actually listening
and understanding the severe
2 inadequacies of this
master plan. Though I don't fully
3 agree with all the
DCA'.S. final recommendations, they
4 proficiently address
the most flagrant of the noncompliant
5 aspects of the plan
such as: One, the need for
6 conservation
areas. Two, the lack of data backing up
7 enrollment
numbers. Three, absolutely no traffic studies
8 of the context areas,
just to name a few.
9
The DCA recommendations, a literal mountain of data,
10 information,
exhibits, evidence were then turned over to
11 Governor's budget and
policy's office for the formidable
12 task of formulating a
final draft order. Here again, the
13 final draft order
submitted for the March 3rd cabinet
14 aides meeting was
very comprehensive. It is clearly
15 evident that staff
considered the relevant laws, codes,
16 regulations as well
as all the facts entered into the
17 record. The
ensuing draft order thoroughly understood the
18 very real constraints
of the Crossley site and addressed
19 them in an incredibly
well thought of and deliberate
20 manner.
21
Now, and this absolutely baffles me, the amended
22 order before you
today has been substantially changed and
23 rewritten at the very
last minute, giving USF the green
24 light to proceed with
their fundamentally and fatally
25 flawed plan.
These changes were effectuated without any
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1 documentation
whatsoever. And I know because I asked.
2 Apparently they were
based on several conversations though
3 not with any of the
Petitioners. What in the world
4 happened here?
Is this what this incredibly lengthy
5 process comes down to,
politics behind closed doors?
6
I became an American citizen three weeks ago and this
7 is not what I
understood to be the American way. I
8 sincerely hope that
you will base your judgment on the
9 DCA's and staff's
incredibly dedicated work and not the
10 tainted version of
the order before you today. Thank you.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you very much. Congratulations.
12
MS. CUOMO: Good morning. My name is Claudia Cuomo.
13 I am a Petitioner and
a volunteer. First of all, I want
14 to express my deep
shock and disappointment over the
15 amendments that were
made to the draft final order. These
16 amendments invalidate
a one-and-half year long process in
17 which review
agencies, the public, the Petitioners as well
18 as the DCA and the
administration commission participated.
19 I did not expect a
state university to rewrite established
20 facts and findings in
such a way showing complete
21 disrespect for the
time and effort that we all invested.
22 I therefore consider
these amendments an insult to all
23 participants and to
the entire process.
24
Like the other participants -- excuse me, like the
25 other Petitioners, I
have given one and a half years of my
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1 lifetime to protect an
irreplaceable jewel on Florida's
2 west coast. I do
not receive a high salary like the
3 expensive lawyers that
USF can afford with taxpayers'
4 money. I have
paid to participate in this process and I
5 have made many
personal sacrifices.
6
The University has known for a long time about the
7 environmental and
historical constraints of the Crossley
8 site and about its
access problems. I don't see any
9 hardships, only
negligence on the part of USF. It ignored
10 the environmental
feasibility contingency in the 1995
11 master plan, its
no-build policies for sensitive habitats.
12 It declined a
guaranteed joint use driveway with the
13 Hilton. It
ignored recommendations made in its own
14 environmental
constraints report. It ignored and
15 contravened agency
and public input. And just now, it
16 also ignored crucial
evidence and sworn testimony and
17 refuses to follow DCA
recommendations in the initial draft
18 final order.
19
It has violated Florida law by already doing
20 extensive damage to
protected gopher tortoise burrows and
21 habitats and I have
pictures of this year's survey tracts,
22 the gopher burrows,
they collapsed and there was extensive
23 damage. This is
illegal, what's done by the University of
24 South Florida.
I have pictures of this damage. There are
25 no hardships because
USF has other viable campus
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1 relocation
options. Feasibility issues have emerged early
2 on in the
process. USF has limited itself entirely to the
3 Crossley site and has
not even made any effort to adjust
4 the campus plans to
the site's ecological sensitivity.
5 USF wants the frosting
on the cake without making any
6 concessions like a
grandiose entrance and bay views.
7
The hardship is entirely with our community who will
8 lose an irreplaceable
piece of Florida history. And with
9 those who participated
in the process with vigilance and
10 good faith to find
out that there is no process after all.
11
Thank you very much.
12
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you.
13
MS. TINKER: The next speaker is Zita Conner, a
14 resident of the
county.
15
MS. CONNER: Good morning.
16
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
17
MS. CONNER: My name is Zita Conner and I'm a
18 volunteer who has
taken off from work and my family to be
19 able to speak with
you today. I have attended USF's
20 public hearings and
have given notice that I am opposed to
21 their proposed
expansion on 28 acres of old Florida upland
22 habitat located on
Sarasota Bay. This is 28 acres with no
23 room to expand.
The Schroeder Manatee ranch offered a
24 donation of a 30-acre
site with an option for USF to
25 acquire up to an
additional 50 acres at a price of $10,000
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1 per acre, well under
current market value, for a USF
2 Lakewood Ranch
Campus. As USF mentions in its historical
3 background for campus
development, Lakewood Ranch eastern
4 development is the
fastest growing 25 to 45-year-old
5 population in the
region. USF student enrollment has
6 doubled since
2001. They now have over 3,000 students
7 enrolled.
8
Also, state senator Michael Bennett said last
9 Wednesday that he
believes the Crossley site is not big
10 enough for the long
term for USF. He favors renovating
11 offices at Tropicana
Products in East Bradenton after the
12 company moves its
headquarters to Chicago in June.
13 Senator Bennett also
stated that USF can pick up
14 300,000 square feet
at Tropicana for the same price as
15 100,000 square feet
at the Crossley.
16
Jim Beaver from the Florida Wildlife Commission
17 visited the Crossley
site in January 2003 and observed a
18 high density of
gopher tortoise burrows occurring in
19 uplands habitats on
the tract. He stated in a letter to
20 me that this campus
master plan will result in the
21 permanent elimination
of one of the last ecologically
22 valuable upland
habitats located on the mainland shore
23 directly adjacent to
Sarasota Bay. USF knows how valuable
24 these gopher
tortoises and their habitats are. After all,
25 two USF biologists
were awarded a
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1 five-year
2-million-dollar grant from the National Science
2 Foundation to study
gopher tortoises.
3
So I ask you this: How is it in the public's best
4 interest to
permanently eliminate one of the last
5 ecologically valuable
upland habitats on Sarasota Bay?
6 Florida stands to lose
a great treasure if USF is
7 permitted to build
their campus on this site.
8
Thank you.
9
MS. TINKER: The next group of speakers are
10 representing the
University of South Florida, Dan Stengle,
11 the general counsel;
Dick Beard, chairman of the board;
12 and Dr. Laurie
Stryker, CEO of the USF Sarasota-Manatee
13 campus.
14
MR. STENGLE: Governor, members of the cabinet, my
15 name is Dan Stengle
and Teresa was used to me being a
16 general
counsel. I'm no longer a general counsel. I'm an
17 attorney with the law
firm of Hopping, Green and Sams in
18 Tallahassee and was
employed by the University of South
19 Florida -- hired by
the University of South Florida to
20 respond to the
petition contesting the development of the
21 Crossley site.
22
This is a very unique statute that we're operating
23 under. And what
it sounds to me and it's something that
24 we have heard before,
the Petitioners are not satisfied
25 with the
process. It is a very difficult process. It is
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1 a very time-consuming
process. In fact, the hearings held
2 by the Department of
Community Affairs extended over some
3 70 hours and six days
to address all of these issues. The
4 Department of
Community Affairs evaluated the evidence and
5 issued its report on
December 19th and we are here today
6 as the culmination of
that very extensive process, but a
7 process that
statutorily recognizes a balance and requires
8 a balance.
9
The statute itself that sets out this process says
10 that campuses provide
research and educational benefits of
11 statewide and
national significance and further provide
12 substantial
educational, economic, and cultural benefits
13 to their host local
governments. And it addresses the
14 adverse impact that a
university master plan can have on
15 public facilities and
services and natural resources. The
16 statute specifically
says, On balance, however,
17 universities should
be considered as vital public
18 facilities of the
state and local governments.
19
Throughout this process, the University of South
20 Florida has striven,
and I believe successfully, to
21 balance those
historic resources, the entrance to the
22 historic Crossley
mansion, the environmental resources
23 which are being -- we
have with us today the environmental
24 expert who actually
did the studies of the gopher
25 tortoises and the
habitat on site with us here if there
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1 are questions that
need to be directed to him.
2
We have reviewed the draft order. We don't agree
3 with everything in the
draft order either. But we
4 recommend its
adoption. This is the first campus master
5 plan challenge that
has come down since the devolution of
6 the process.
There's only been one before and that was in
7 1997, the University
of Florida, since its devolution, the
8 responsibility down to
the Board of Trustees of the
9 University. And
unless there are questions of me, we have
10 the chair, as you
recognize, Governor, a gentleman who
11 played an
extraordinary important role in this process,
12 the chair of the
Board of Trustees of the University of
13 South Florida, Dick
Beard.
14
MR. BEARD: Governor Bush, commissioners, thank you
15 for hearing us this
morning. USF's Board of Trustees must
16 prepare and adopt
campus master plans. We are in
17 agreement with the
plan before you along with the
18 Sarasota-Manatee
board President Genshaft and Dr. Stryker.
19 In order for us to
meet our educational mission in
20 Sarasota, we must
build a new campus. It was required
21 because of the split
between USF and New College and our
22 continued growth.
23
This location allows us to share 100,000 square feet
24 of joint facilities
which are next door to us or just
25 south of us with New
College which will save us millions.
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1 We believe it is a
balanced plan. It accomplishes the
2 needs of the
neighbors, the environment, and our mission.
3
Let me introduce Dr. Stryker who will tell you a
4 little bit more about
our plan. Dr. Stryker.
5
DR. STRYKER: Good morning, Governor and cabinet
6 members. This
has been a long process and I share some of
7 the frustration that
maybe you heard from the Petitioners
8 this morning. We
have been through -- this process
9 started in November of
2002 when we held two neighborhood
10 meetings with the
uplands neighborhood because, as you see
11 from the map, the
neighborhood is bracketed by the current
12 shared campus and the
proposed Crossley expansion. Let me
13 point that out a
minute. (Indicating.) So we recognize
14 that we had to have
special dialog with them and we did in
15 November.
16
That following spring or winter and spring we had
17 three public hearings
even though two were required.
18 Those were hours of
testimony that we took. The -- in May
19 the Board adopted the
master plan, that's May 2003. And
20 since that time we've
been going forward on the detailed
21 site planning and the
building plan because at the time
22 the Legislature
funded in 2002 the master plan, they also
23 funded the building
plan. And so we have the building
24 plan, we have the
site plan and much of that has
25 progressed since the
time the original master plan
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1 amendment was done
last May.
2
So during that process and then subsequently the
3 hearings that were
referenced in DCA, the 70 hours of
4 hearings, we have been
listening. And we have said to our
5 neighbors over and
over again, we have been listening and
6 we have made
adjustments to the plan. Today there are
7 four disputed issues
which we believe are being resolved
8 for -- from the order
or in the order in front of you.
9
First, the environmental preservation. And as
10 mentioned, Mr. Gary
Comp, who was formerly the
11 environmental
director for Sarasota County for 17 years
12 and our environmental
consultant, worked with us along
13 with Sazocki and
Associates (phonetic), a world-class
14 planner for
universities, to come up with a plan that was
15 sensitive to the
issues here, environment, historic. But
16 the base issue is how
we're going to serve those students.
17
In the plan before you, we are providing a 6-acre
18 preservation area for
the resident species with a required
19 management
plan. At the time of the hearings back in
20 November, that was a
four acre, that's now gone to a six
21 acre. So there
has been movement, there has been
22 adjustment. Our
plan also maintains an efficient and safe
23 transportation
network. And one of the things in the
24 former order, the
order we saw last week, the change in
25 the parking would
have presented, we think, both a safety
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1 problem and reduced
access to the day care center that's
2 planned in the
building for many of our students who have
3 families.
4
We understand the concerns of the neighbors. In
5 fact, this plan builds
out the campus in a way that will
6 accommodate our future
needs and it does not depend on
7 additional land in
this neighborhood because we want that
8 live/work and we think
that's a very valuable piece.
9
Under the order, we have a 50-foot buffer. And it
10 was stated this was a
normal Manatee County requirement.
11 And I can tell you
that is not the case. The 50-foot
12 buffer is a very
generous buffer with 80 percent opacity
13 and other commitments
that we've made to make sure that we
14 shield the
neighborhood from the parking lights and the
15 campus as much as
possible.
16
We've also agreed and amended the order that we set a
17 date certain because
that was a question that came up last
18 week and that's in
your amendment today. But -- and the
19 bottom line, quite
simply, we are out of room. This
20 campus was acquired
in 1991 for our purpose. We're vital
21 to the economic
future of this community and we ask for
22 your support in this
amended order today. I would be
23 remiss not to ask my
chairman, my board chairman, Jan
24 Smith to come up and
just make a few comments, if you
25 would indulge
that. Jan Smith, our volunteer.
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1
MR. SMITH: Governor, members of the cabinet, thank
2 you for having us
today. I had some prepared remarks but
3 I'm going to do away
with those because I think the facts
4 have been presented
succinctly. I'm a volunteer too. I'm
5 a businessman in
Bradenton, Manatee County. We have
6 several folks here
from the Sarasota business community
7 that are up
today. For several years I was the chairman
8 of the Manatee
Community College Board which feeds
9 60 percent of those
graduates to the University of South
10 Florida,
Sarasota-Manatee. We're out of room. It's a
11 very simple
situation. Unless we want kids to be educated
12 sitting at picnic
tables somewhere, we need to do
13 something.
14
THE GOVERNOR: What about the Senator Bennett
15 proposal?
16
MR. SMITH: What about the Senator Bennett proposal?
17
THE GOVERNOR: No, I asked you first.
18
(Laughter.)
19
MR. SMITH: Well, let's see. I'll try to give you a
20 complete answer and
not too long-winded. We've been
21 working -- you know,
as Laurie Stryker said, the state of
22 Florida acquired the
Crossley property for the expansion
23 in 1991. The
Legislature in its wisdom decided to
24 separate New College
and USF. I served on the education
25 governance
reorganization task force, Governor, which you
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1 might recall.
And we believe in the seamless education
2 business.
3
It seems very difficult to me when we're told over
4 and over again that
there is not enough money to go and
5 try to do something at
Lakewood Ranch or somewhere else
6 which would cost
millions of dollars. If we went to the
7 Tropicana site, if
that's what you're referring to, there
8 is no library at the
Tropicana site. It's a huge
9 facility. I
think it would be a wonderful facility if we
10 were to get it for
nutrition, for some other research type
11 facility, because
it's a wonderful facility, it's huge.
12
But to retrofit the university on that, as a campus,
13 I don't think is
really in the best interest of our
14 community. It
sits in my hometown, Bradenton, so I would
15 obviously love to
have it and have something done with it.
16 But the fact of the
matter is as we sit between two
17 counties, where we
are now on the Crossley,
18 Sarasota-Manatee,
that seems to serve our population. I
19 don't know if I'm
adequately answering your question
20 but --
21
THE GOVERNOR: You are.
22
MR. SMITH: We feel very strongly we must move on.
23 It's our time to move
on.
24
THE GOVERNOR: General.
25
GENERAL CRIST: Yeah, along the same lines. Governor
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1 picked up on an issue
I was curious about. Tropicana,
2 and/or Lakewood, why
were they not acceptable?
3
MR. SMITH: Well, we have a --
4
GENERAL CRIST: It's a friendly question.
5
MR. SMITH: I understand and I'm a friendly person.
6 A couple of years ago
when Lakewood came into the dialog,
7 there was no money
available supposedly to do that sort of
8 thing, at least that's
what our representatives told us.
9 And we have a Crossley
site. As a taxpayer, it seems to
10 make sense to build
on something that you already own and
11 use a library that
you already have that you could share
12 with New
College. We have a cultural district, an
13 educational district
there with USF and Ringling and so
14 forth. And so
we think it makes a lot of sense to have
15 those there.
16
THE GOVERNOR: Treasurer.
17
CFO GALLAGHER: With the amendments and changes that
18 have been made by the
-- since the cabinet meeting and
19 those changes that
have been made and the university has
20 agreed with and those
considered as added to this, I'll
21 move that we approve
this item.
22
THE GOVERNOR: Is there a second?
23
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
24
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Is there any other speakers?
25
MR. SMITH: Thank you very much.
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1
MS. TINKER: No, sir. There are no other speakers.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Teresa, tell me -- if you could
3 summarize the changes
after there was references made
4 about backroom deals
and secret negotiations and things
5 that are somewhat
disturbing, can you explain what
6 happened since --
7
MS. TINKER: Well, I can tell you, there were no
8 backroom deals or
secret negotiations. During the cabinet
9 meeting we spent an
extensive amount of time on this item.
10 All the speakers were
heard from and they offered their
11 solutions to the
problem. It was clear during that
12 discussion and
hearing what the speakers had to say that
13 we had not fully
taken into account many of the issues
14 that had been raised
in the process.
15
THE GOVERNOR: Tell me, give me a summary, if you
16 could, of what
changes in terms of the proposed order and
17 the final order in
the last week. If you could just give
18 me some of those.
19
MS. TINKER: It really has to do with the layout of
20 the design. And
basically the original staff
21 recommendation
tracked the Department of Community
22 Affairs'
recommendation, which was to preserve the front
23 part, the front 6
acres or so of the property for the
24 tortoises and to
maintain the habitat there.
25
We realized that that really was not possible due to
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1 other issues, safety,
the desire to keep the entranceway
2 into Crossley Mansion
preserved. There were a variety of
3 things. So after
we talked to the environmental
4 consultants, after we
talked to the parties, we came back
5 and looked at that
again. And instead of having that
6 piece of the property
preserved, we're asking the County,
7 in fact your order
requires the University to preserve a
8 minimum of 6 acres of
coastal scrub and open space as
9 habitat suitable for
the environmental species that are
10 there. It
requires the University to add policies to the
11 plan to prepare and
implement a habitat management plan
12 for the species of
concern. It requires that -- the
13 supplementation of
native vegetation to ensure adequate
14 ecological
values.
15
It also requires that, for the road coming in, that
16 there be eco tunnels
underneath that road to allow the
17 tortoises to pass
through without being harmed by the
18 traffic. So we
believe this is an alternative to what the
19 Department
recommended, but it does continue to recognize
20 the environmental
values on this property while allowing
21 the University to go
forward with a design that meets --
22 tries to balance all
of the interests involved in this
23 particular
proceeding, including those things that were
24 raised by State
agencies.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you. Any other discussion?
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1 There is a motion and
a second. All in favor say aye.
2 All opposed. (No
response.) Very good. The motion
3 passes.
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Wait a second. Did we skip the
2 Florida Land and Water
Adjudicatory Commission? You guys
3 can go.
Representative Regan, it's nice seeing you.
4
MS. TINKER: Item 1. Recommend approval of the
5 minutes of the
November 12th, 2003 meeting.
6
GENERAL CRIST: Motion.
7
CFO GALLAGHER: Second.
8
THE GOVERNOR: There is a motion and a second.
9 Without objection, the
item passes.
10
MS. TINKER: Item 2. Request approval of the
11 proposed final rule
contracting the boundaries of the
12 Lakewood Ranch
Community Development District 5 in Manatee
13 County.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 2.
15
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
16
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
17 objection, the item
passes. Thank you, Teresa.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Board of Trustees. The Board of
2 Trustees of the
Internal Improvement Trust Fund. Item 1.
3
MS. CASTILLE: Good morning again, Governor and
4 members of the
cabinet. The Board of Trustees of the
5 Internal Improvement
Trust Fund, Item No. 1, is an
6 acquisition of the --
consideration of an option agreement
7 to acquire 365 acres
within the Division of Recreation and
8 Parks for the Rainbow
River State Park from the Griffitts
9 with the Division of
Recreation and Parks. The
10 acquisition is for
$2.3 million and is at 100 percent of
11 appraised value and
it's a recent appraisal.
12
Members of the cabinet and Governor, we do have some
13 senators and
representatives here who would like to come
14 up and talk for a
moment. And I'd like to go ahead and
15 recognize Senator
Nancy Argenziano, if I may. She has a
16 committee meeting to
get back to.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Senator, good to see you.
18
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: Thank you, Governor and members.
19
THE GOVERNOR: Representatives, welcome. Are you
20 going to introduce
them?
21
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: You want me to introduce them
22 all? These are
my buddies.
23
THE GOVERNOR: They're your colleagues. I know you
24 love the Florida
House, so.
25
(Laughter.)
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Representatives Baxley and Cretul are
2 here. Thank you
for being here.
3
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: Thank you, Governor and members.
4 Thank you so much for
hearing us today and hi to all the
5 Dunnellon residents
and my friends.
6
THE GOVERNOR: I couldn't tell where you were from.
7
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: First, Governor and members, I'd
8 really like to applaud
DEP's efforts. This has been
9 several years --
10
THE GOVERNOR: Oh, this is the second thing I want to
11 get on record.
12
(Laughter.)
13
MS. CASTILLE: It's early in the day, sir.
14
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: Yes, it is early. Give me time.
15 No, they have done a
remarkable job over several years of
16 trying to acquire
this piece of property. And I'm here,
17 number one, to give
my full support. And, Governor, as
18 you know, the springs
initiative, which I commend you for,
19 is a great
initiative. The Legislature has found in the
20 past several years
that our springs not only need
21 protection right at
the head anymore, there is an area
22 around and the
Governor has made great moves forward in
23 protecting those
springs.
24
Now, as a past realtor in Marion County and Citrus
25 County, I can tell
you, and I was specialized in
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1 waterfront property,
that first magnitude springs, you
2 don't find them on
every corner. And I know there's been
3 talk in the past
about, Oh, the appraisal is too high.
4 The price is too
high. I can tell you, the appraisal, in
5 my opinion, and by
several realtors in my area think it
6 was kind of low.
So we've done a great job. And I also
7 want to let you know
that the family has been contacted,
8 the attorney of the
family has been contacted by the
9 Huizenga Group and
offered more money than what we're
10 going to pay.
11
THE GOVERNOR: For what?
12
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: For this parcel.
13
THE GOVERNOR: What would the Huizenga Group want to
14 do with this?
15
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: We have no idea and we're a
16 little nervous.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Bottle water.
18
SENATOR ARGENZIANO: We don't want a stadium. I
19 don't know,
Governor. I can just tell you I know that the
20 property is valued
and would be considered by several
21 other entities.
I just think it goes a long way in
22 working in harmony
with the springs initiative and other
23 initiatives that
we're taking and I'm here to give my full
24 support of that and
hope you do too.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Senator.
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61
1
(Applause.)
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Governor, I'll move Item 1.
3
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Does anybody else want to speak? I
5 mean, we're all for
it. There is a rule up here where
6 after you've made the
sale and the deal is closed, if you
7 keep talking, you may
have a chance of losing the deal
8 so --
9
(Laughter.)
10
CFO GALLAGHER: Jump out the window.
11
MS. CASTILLE: With respect to that, Governor, I do
12 have to mention that
this is a community where my Aunt
13 Doris lives
(laughter) and if I don't mention her and her
14 active --
15
THE GOVERNOR: Is she here?
16
MS. CASTILLE: She is not here, but she has friends
17 here who have all
come to give me hugs on her behalf.
18
THE GOVERNOR: Wow, Aunt Doris is well known.
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Hello for Aunt Doris.
20
THE GOVERNOR: There is a motion and a second. Any
21 other
discussion? Without objection, the item passes.
22 It's a great piece of
property.
23
(Applause.)
24
You-all are so easy to please.
25
MS. CASTILLE: Item No. 2.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Appreciate you-all being here.
2
MS. CASTILLE: We have a consideration of a request
3 to the Board of
Trustees to release a 60-foot-wide
4 ingress-egress
easement and a one-mile segment of a second
5 60-foot-wide
ingress-egress easement containing
6 approximately 4.95
acres and 7.19 acres respectively in
7 Collier County
acquired by the Board of Trustees as part
8 of two Rookery Bay
National Estuarine Research Reserve
9 acquisitions.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Is there a motion?
11
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on two.
12
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
14 objection, the item
passes.
15
Item 3.
16
MS. CASTILLE: Item 3, consideration of a partial
17 modification of
restrictions on approximately 10.63 acres
18 and partial
assignment and assumption in the city of Cape
19 Coral.
20
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3.
21
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
22
THE GOVERNOR: There is a motion and a second. Is
23 there anybody here to
-- you'll let us know if somebody is
24 here to speak.
25
MS. CASTILLE: We have people available for
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63
1 questions.
2
THE GOVERNOR: I'm sorry?
3
MS. CASTILLE: We have people here available for
4 questions if anyone
has any.
5
THE GOVERNOR: There's a motion and a second. Any
6 other
discussion? Without objection, the item passes.
7
MS. CASTILLE: Item No. 4, Leon County Sunland
8 Hospital
surplus. This is one of the great opportunities
9 we have for selling
some of our assets. We've put the
10 Sunland property out
for surplus and received several bids
11 on the property and
are asking for approval of a request
12 to acquire the
property for $4.573 million -- I mean
13 selling the
property. Sorry.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: Governor?
15
THE GOVERNOR: Yes, Treasurer?
16
CFO GALLAGHER: This is the second time we've put
17 this up for
sale. And I know the rules allow you-all to
18 do it the way you did
it, Colleen, but I think it's
19 important and I'm
going to maybe talk about it later, but
20 I think there's a lot
of things that are delegated, this
21 isn't one, this is by
rule. But I think you need to
22 communicate, I think,
with the trustees on things that are
23 coming up. This
would be one of them that you're going to
24 put out to bid, so
we're knowledgeable of it from the
25 beginning.
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1
On this particular piece of property, what we're
2 doing is giving
somebody an opportunity to take a piece of
3 property, tear down
the existing facility, which is going
4 to cost between
one-and-a-half, and maybe less than that,
5 and up to maybe $3
million, and have a piece of property
6 that's probably worth
9 million. We should look at in the
7 state --
8
THE GOVERNOR: Whoa, after it gets rezoned.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: That's true, possibly some things
10 would happen.
But that's a number I've been told.
11
THE GOVERNOR: This is all going on some record
12 somewhere.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: It may not need rezoning for that, I
14 don't know.
15
THE GOVERNOR: Does it need rezoning? Because that's
16 an excellent
question.
17
MS. CASTILLE: It all depends on what they want to do
18 with the property but
it will likely need to be rezoned.
19
THE GOVERNOR: What can be done on it now?
20
MS. CASTILLE: Eva?
21
MS. ARMSTRONG: It's currently zoned
22
office/residential.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Is that what the appraisal was --
24
MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir.
25
CFO GALLAGHER: And it could go to a shopping center
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1 type --
2
MS. ARMSTRONG: It would depend upon what, under
3 Tallahassee's land use
office/residential includes. I
4 mean, I think if a
Target went in there, it would require
5 rezoning and probably
a comprehensive plan amendment.
6
CFO GALLAGHER: But there are people that think
7 that's a good place
for a Target type store and probably
8 interested in putting
one there. That would run it up to
9 about 9 million.
My point is that, and I know we're not
10 in the land
development business, but we're always in the
11 buy high and sell low
business. And this is a prime
12 example of
that. That property has been sitting there
13 since I was in the
Legislature in the '70s and we shut it
14 down. The
building has been there since then. It's
15 totally fallen apart
and deteriorated. And somebody is
16 going to have to
spend a million and a half bucks or so to
17 clear it off.
So now they got a 5 or 6 million-dollar
18 cost in it and
change, a couple of years' worth of time
19 and it's worth three
more million. If I remember
20 correctly, a couple
of years ago we put this out and got,
21 what, a million and a
half offered for it?
22
MS. ARMSTRONG: No bids.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: No bids?
24
MS. CASTILLE: Zero bids.
25
CFO GALLAGHER: Well, we didn't even get a million
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1 and a half. I
think we got a minimum of three and got
2 nothing. So
somebody obviously figures out that they can
3 buy it for four and a
half and spend some money and get
4 eight or nine out of
it and that's what land developers
5 do.
6
But I think we should be, one, I think it's in all of
7 our best interest for
you to tell us that these properties
8 are coming up and
you're going to put them out and you're
9 going to have a
minimum of what it is, et cetera, and we
10 can ask those
questions in the front end about what's it
11 cost, fair change, et
cetera, instead of, Here it is, vote
12 on it.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Yeah, Colleen.
14
(Laughter.)
15
CFO GALLAGHER: So that's step one. Now that you're
16 there, Ms. Colleen, I
really do think that it would be --
17
MS. CASTILLE: Treasurer, we would be happy to inform
18 you. We do
surplus all levels of property, some of which
19 is delegated for the
final sale of those properties to the
20 department. And
I recognize what is a large parcel and
21 what we should inform
you of. In my previous life as the
22 secretary of the
Department of Community Affairs, we have
23 come to recognize
that redevelopment is a difficult
24 activity for any
developer to undertake, and that
25 appraisals are based
on the bundle of rights that come
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1 with the property.
2
For the property to be worth $9 million, it's a
3 bundle of rights that
the existing owner is going to have
4 to go provide -- to do
a site plan, to do engineering, to
5 do a number of things,
not to mention public hearings with
6 the surrounding
community members. So it's a bundle of
7 rights that comes with
a lot of hurdles to overcome as
8 well. I think
that the property --
9
THE GOVERNOR: Why don't you say yes to Treasurer
10 Gallagher's very good
--
11
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir, we will bring it to you.
12
THE GOVERNOR: You're talking about informally?
13
CFO GALLAGHER: Just come by, visit. Tell our
14 cabinet aides so they
can tell us so we know what's coming
15 along. And I'll
bring it up later, but on the
16 delegations, I
believe it's time for us to look at all the
17 delegations and redo
those. We have a new size cabinet, a
18 new cabinet basically
and some of us forget all those
19 things that we
delegated. I know you-all haven't
20 forgotten them, but
we have. And we need to look at those
21 again and just get
sort of updated on what they are and I
22 think repass them
again sometime between now and July.
23
MS. CASTILLE: I think that's an excellent idea,
24 Treasurer, and we'll
bring that, probably not at the next
25 meeting, but --
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: We can skip a few meetings to give
2 you time to look at
them all, bring them to us and let's
3 look at what we've
delegated and make a decision on
4 whether we want to
continue delegating or if it's
5 something we want to
hear about or some -- maybe we'd make
6 it an informal basis
where you let us know what you're
7 doing through the
process.
8
MS. CASTILLE: Okay.
9
THE GOVERNOR: There is a motion and a second.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: I didn't hear that yet. But I will
11 make one if that's
what you'd like.
12
(Laughter.)
13
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: I'll reluctantly move this item.
15
THE GOVERNOR: Is there a second?
16
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
17
THE GOVERNOR: All in favor say aye. All opposed.
18 (No response.)
Onward.
19
MS. CASTILLE: Item No. 5 is the USA Board of
20 Trustees Family
Paradise Island Resort settlement
21 agreement. The
consideration of the settlement agreement
22 between USA Family
Paradise Island Resort and the Board of
23 Trustees resolving
encroachments in Monroe County.
24
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3 --
25
MS. CASTILLE: Five.
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 5.
2
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
3
MS. CASTILLE: It's value for value swap.
4
THE GOVERNOR: There's a motion and a second. Any
5 discussion?
Without objection, the item passes.
6
MS. CASTILLE: Item No. 6. Governor, members of the
7 cabinet, we have
before you a request for Atlantic Dry
8 Dock Corporation to
modified a five-year sovereignty --
9 two sovereignty
submerged land leases to increase their
10 preempted area from
278,590 square feet to 554,605 square
11 feet for a proposed
50,000-ton capacity dry dock facility.
12 The modifications of
the five-year submerged land lease
13 increased the
preempted area from 107,000 plus square feet
14 to 302,000 square
feet.
15
This facility is located on the St. Johns River
16 adjacent to the
Mayport Naval Station. And the addition
17 of these dry docks
will be for the retrofit of Navy ships.
18 The facility -- there
are probable issues that I'd like to
19 discuss with
you. The facility presently is currently
20 paid up in compliance
with existing submerged land leases.
21 In the past there
have been a few noncompliance issues
22 with existing leases
that were corrected by obtaining the
23 not-necessary
authorizations when the company was
24 notified.
Erosion are some issues.
25
Taylor Engineering evaluated the impact of shoreline
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1 erosion potentially
created by the proposed expansion at
2 the facility and the
hydrodynamic models indicate that the
3 project should have no
impact on shoreline erosion or the
4 stability of the
existing revetments which protect the
5 shoreline from much
higher wave-induced energy along the
6 adjacent north shore
of the St. Johns River.
7
The dredging that is performed is performed within
8 the applications of
the riparian area of the company. And
9 the eastern dry dock
will be, if you look here, the
10 eastern dry dock is
right here. (Indicating.) Here's the
11 riparian line right
here which extends out. And the
12 eastern dry dock will
be 350 feet from the nearest
13 property line along
the shoreline. And as it goes out
14 into the waterway,
will be 100 feet from that riparian
15 line at the waterward
end of the dry dock.
16
There are some speakers here on the issue. I think
17 Mr. -- is Rick
Collins here?
18
MR. COLLINS: Yes, I am.
19
MS. CASTILLE: Mr. Collins is an adjacent property
20 owner.
21
THE GOVERNOR: Come on up, Mr. Collins. How are you
22 doing?
23
MR. COLLINS: Good.
24
THE GOVERNOR: You don't need a microphone.
25
MR. COLLINS: No, I don't.
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1
(Laughter.)
2
They say a picture speaks a thousand words. I
3 brought some pictures
to do my talking today. This is a
4 picture that was taken
two days ago. You might need to
5 zoom in if you
can. This is my property here. I've owned
6 it since '79. I
stick out about 60, 70 feet more to the
7 river because I riprap
and nobody else did. This is
8 actually a fairly
clean shot here. You can see the
9 existing dry dock has
been moved out of the way because
10 they've been dredging
here. And all you're really going
11 to see here is this
is the dock that they actually put the
12 dry dock next
to. This is where they're going to put the
13 new one here.
You can see how close it's going to be when
14 they do get beside
us.
15
If you can visualize now, right here they saved
16 300 feet which is
roughly 100 yards. A structure 900-foot
17 long and roughly 150
foot high, it's not going to be very
18 pretty. I've
also got some other photos here. They've
19 been dredging.
They moved the other dry dock out of the
20 way to do some
maintenance dredging there. Since they've
21 been doing that the
last two months, my -- they talk about
22 experts and
studies. We can all be experts if you've got
23 a pair of eyes.
All you've got to do is go stand on my
24 property right
now. My riprap is, the stuff I've got, is
25 sinking into the
river right now as we speak. I've got
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1 pictures that will
show that.
2
The trees here, I've got -- you can see kind of the
3 trees here on the
side. They've been here forever.
4 They're all starting
to die. This is a view of my
5 property looking from
the dry dock. This is my riprap
6 here. You can
see the trees.
7
THE GOVERNOR: Why are the trees dying?
8
MR. COLLINS: The trees that are on the water here,
9 there's three of
them. They're all starting to die.
10 There's one, I've got
another photo to show you --
11
THE GOVERNOR: Why?
12
MR. COLLINS: There's no land underneath it. The
13 river is starting to
go even faster now. The riprap is
14 not stopping
it. They're all starting to die. There's no
15 ground for the trees
to --
16
THE GOVERNOR: Because of the dredging?
17
MR. COLLINS: The dredging. The dredging they're
18 doing, the
maintenance dredging, is causing my property
19 right now to slough
into the river right now as we speak.
20 I've got
pictures. Here's another interesting shot right
21 here. This is
the border of Atlantic Dry Dock. This is
22 what they put in
there. Obviously, they need to put some
23 more riprap in
there. This is starting to eat my property
24 up. I've told
them numerous times this is happening.
25 They've never done
anything about it. And they've dropped
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1 these steel containers
there which is against the law to
2 put for riprap but
that's what they've done. They put the
3 things there.
4
But, yes, you can come right now on my property,
5 Governor. Here's
another picture. I'll show you the
6 trees that are dying
right here. You can see the tree
7 right here that's been
there for -- I had the place since
8 '79. It was
there when I bought the place. They're dying
9 now. They're all
starting to die. I've got a very good
10 picture that shows
that the riprap is falling into the --
11 here's a picture I
took of the neighbor's dock. The
12 currents have always
been treacherous in there. This is a
13 living river. I
mean, it's like a child.
14
Since I've owned the place, I've probably put 100
15 loads of riprap in
there. I mean, you have to continually
16 add riprap to this
thing all the time because it
17 continually sloughs
into the river. It's the worst I've
18 ever seen now.
I mean, the currents are treacherous.
19 This dock right
beside me now is getting ready to fall
20 down here in the last
couple of years. I mean if you walk
21 on it, it's spooky to
walk on the thing just from the
22 currents going
by.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Well, I'm a little confused about how
24 this property owner
is the cause of something you say is
25 always been, you
know, the currents are --
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1
MR. COLLINS: Well, the currents have always been
2 hard running through
there. But, like I say, since the
3 last two months --
4
THE GOVERNOR: You're at a point, right?
5
MR. COLLINS: What was that?
6
THE GOVERNOR: You're at a point?
7
MR. COLLINS: Yes, I'm at the point right beside him.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. I just --
9
MR. COLLINS: Since they've been dredging there,
10 Governor, it's
increased the currents even more on this
11 side. I mean,
all the currents hit on this north side.
12 All I'm saying, since
they've just been doing the
13 maintenance dredging
the currents have gotten to the
14 point. It's
going to be a big problem here when you
15 dredge it.
Bigger cubic yards is going to make a big
16 hole, it's going to
fill with water and the water is going
17 to have to get out of
that. Where is it going to go?
18 It's going to go
right beside that north shore and it's
19 going to erode
everything that's there. It's happening
20 right now just from
the maintenance dredging.
21
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Anything else?
22
MR. COLLINS: I think that's it.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you for being here.
24
MS. CASTILLE: Governor, we have two other homeowners
25 who would like to
speak as well, Nancy O'Donnell and John
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1 Adcox. And we
have two officials from Atlantic Dry Dock
2 here as well to answer
questions.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Good morning.
4
MS. O'DONNELL: Good morning, Governor. It's an
5 honor to be here and
to speak to you and to the cabinet.
6
THE GOVERNOR: State who you are for the record, I'm
7 sorry.
8
MS. O'DONNELL: Sir?
9
THE GOVERNOR: Can you state who you are for the
10 record?
11
MS. O'DONNELL: Yes. My name is Nancy O'Donnell. I
12 live at 8720 McKenna
Drive. And I have come to speak to
13 you regarding the
Atlantic Dry Dock's dredging and
14 submerged land
lease. I believe it will negatively impact
15 our waters
here. I believe that it will impact the
16 environment and will
endanger the commercial and boating
17 public.
18
And it's incompatible with the surrounding
19 residential community
in the Fort George area.
20 Specifically Atlantic
Dry Docks' dredging permit and lease
21 should be denied or
tabled on the following grounds. The
22 dredging has the
potential of interfering with what we
23 call the mile point
study and that has not been addressed.
24 The area of the study
spans -- it spans from Mayport which
25 you see here
(indicating), all the way around to White
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1 Shell and that is --
encompasses this area right here
2 (indicating) that --
which is the area.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Where do you live, ma'am?
4
MS. O'DONNELL: I live -- that dock right there
5 (indicating), is
mine.
6
THE GOVERNOR: So that was the dock that your
7 neighbor was talking
about?
8
MS. O'DONNELL: Yes, sir. That's the one that's in
9 peril. And so I
have high interest in that area, of
10 course. On this
mile point study what we've found is that
11 it's federally
funded, federally approved, it has money,
12 this year from the
JAX Port Authority and they will match
13 that money for
2005. So it's an ongoing project. And
14 this project is to
mitigate the north shore, which is --
15 the Corps of
Engineers have already admitted and know that
16 it is constantly --
has constant erosion.
17
Now what we want to do is to -- I'm asking that we
18 table this or defer
this or deny this permit until such
19 time as the mile
point study can mitigate those areas and
20 save the property in
that area. It's been said by the bar
21 pilots that this area
right here is the most treacherous
22 of the Jacksonville
channel in the Jacksonville harbor.
23 And this --
24
THE GOVERNOR: Why is that -- why is the dry dock
25 operation the cause
of that?
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1
MS. O'DONNELL: The dry dock operation would be the
2 cause of that because
of what they want to do on the west
3 side. In this
area right here (indicating), they intend
4 to put a pier and a
dry dock in this area as well.
5
THE GOVERNOR: I understand that. But you're saying
6 it's the most
treacherous part of the navigation for these
7 pilots right now
without the --
8
MS. O'DONNELL: Yes, it is. But when you add these
9 other things, then
it's going to make it more so.
10
THE GOVERNOR: That's my point. I don't know enough
11 about this.
12
MS. O'DONNELL: Number one, you're going to have --
13 it's like a dog
leg. You can see it better on this map
14 right here.
It's a dog leg. And when you get something
15 of this size right
here and a big ship coming here, it's
16 going to be a dog leg
here. It's going to be a blind spot
17 and then you're going
to have small boat owners right
18 here. When they
did the risk analysis, it was a three on
19 the chart with the
current configuration. Three means
20 that --
21
THE GOVERNOR: So this study is a navigation study?
22
MS. O'DONNELL: Yeah, it's actually --
23
THE GOVERNOR: I thought you were talking about
24 environmental erosion
and other things. This study is
25 being done to look at
--
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1
MS. O'DONNELL: It's being done by the Corps of
2 Engineers and they've
got to mitigate the north shore
3 because of the
dredging they do and in order to control
4 the river. And
we fear what will happen is if they dredge
5 now and they put this
dry dock here, that it will further
6 impact the mile point
study. And if it does that, then
7 all of the work that
we've done and all the mitigation
8 that the Corps of
Engineers is going to do, is going to be
9 impacted
negatively.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. I understand now. I'm sorry,
11 slow on the
uptake.
12
MS. O'DONNELL: I'm sorry. I'm nervous.
13
THE GOVERNOR: You're doing great.
14
MS. O'DONNELL: Okay. One other thing I wanted to
15 say. Can you
hone in on that right here? Speaking of the
16 risk analysis, of
course they did one to say whether the
17 dry dock and the
extensions they are going to have is
18 going to -- how it's
going to impact the public. And what
19 they found was in
this study that the way they configured
20 the dry docks and the
piers, they were going to be about
21 300 feet from the
channel.
22
And due to the treacherousness of that channel, that
23 it would be an impact
on category -- for example, category
24 of three. The
Category 3 is a number three. No. 3 is the
25 next to highest you
can have in danger. It means death to
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1 people. So this
is a serious safety problem in this area
2 that they
recognize.
3
Now what they did is they reduced one of the docks 80
4 feet and the Coast
Guard captain agreed that then it would
5 be okay. But
what he did say was that he would only knock
6 this down by one
factor. So now you have a Category 2
7 here -- I mean a
Category 3. You got a No. 2 under it.
8 Which, by their
standards, the risk on that is -- a
9 probable increase
means that you'll have one to five
10 collisions between 10
and 50 years. So it is still a big
11 risk for the public
and especially along Sister's Creek.
12
You're getting bigger ships. You're getting the
13 Carnival cruises, the
ones that are 600 feet. And what I
14 want to say to that
is the risk factor in this area is
15 most certainly -- has
got to be high for collision. And
16 while the officials,
which is the Coast Guard captain, may
17 be willing to take
the risk of a catastrophic event in
18 this area, which is
what they are talking about on this
19 risk analysis, or
what if one death occurs or a
20 catastrophic event
due to these risks, who will be
21 accountable for
that? If this committee approves this
22 dredging and
submerged land lease, it too will have to
23 bear some of the
accountability. So this is a serious
24 safety problem that
we want to address.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you. Commissioner?
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1
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Yes, Governor. How many
2 collisions over the
past number of years have there been
3 in this area? I
mean, you're talking about the potential
4 of some type of boat
collision or has there been --
5
MS. O'DONNELL: I don't have that data. But it is a
6 likely
probability. You've got to take -- you know, I
7 don't know if there
have been any in the area.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, ma'am, for coming. Are you
9 finished?
10
MS. O'DONNELL: I could say more but, yeah, I'll
11 quit. I have
more.
12
THE GOVERNOR: You did very well and you made your
13 point.
Colleen?
14
MS. CASTILLE: Governor and members of the cabinet,
15 the risk analysis
that Ms. O'Donnell is referring to is
16 one that was
requested by Atlantic Marine and Dry Dock to
17 the U.S. Coast
Guard. And a letter has been sent from the
18 U.S. Coast Guard
which evaluated that report and discussed
19 ways to mitigate the
issues in the report and the final
20 paragraphs of the
letter from the Coast Guard are that,
21 Based on the latest
proposal to limit the west pier
22 extension to 80 feet
with no overhang beyond that
23 extension toward the
river, I have decided and this is
24 the -- I'm not sure
what his rank is -- Captain Learch
25 (phonetic), who has
decided that he will not object to
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1 AMI's expansion.
And in his professional opinion, the
2 navigational risk
assessment scores would each be reduced
3 by at least one
factor.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Any other speakers?
5
MS. CASTILLE: Yes. Mr. Adcox.
6
MR. ADCOX: Governor, cabinet. John Adcox, glad to
7 meet you. My
name is John Adcox. I live at 8746 McKennah
8 Drive in
Jacksonville. And I certainly appreciate the
9 opportunity you're
affording me to speak this morning.
10 We're all very
tired. I already see that. You've already
11 heard several issues
on the dry dock. I'm against it,
12 obviously, and I live
the second house over on the other
13 side of Nancy.
And my rationale for asking you to further
14 study this is a
little different from the rest of the
15 folks who's been
heard.
16
First of all, Atlantic Dry Dock never gave us any
17 public notice.
And I find this very deceiving. I am a
18 college professor and
I try to believe in ethics and I
19 don't think they did
that. They gave no public notice
20 provided to the
community for this particular permit. No
21 notice was provided
to my family whose property is
22 200 feet from the
Atlantic Dry Dock property or to the
23 community. To
support this statement, because they're
24 going to counteract
it, I refer the group to a
25 conversation with Mr.
Mike Seymore who's the past
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1 president, and the
president at the time the community
2 club that this took
place, that I had with him and he's
3 also an employee of
Atlantic Dry Dock and has been for 23
4 years. My
conversation yesterday morning with Mike
5 Seymore, Mr. Seymore,
is there's no records in the
6 Hecksher Drive
Community Club minutes of the presentations
7 by Atlantic Dry Dock
on this particular project --
8
THE GOVERNOR: I'm sorry. Were there any local
9 approvals?
10
MR. ADCOX: No, sir. There's been no local
11 approvals.
12
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
13
MR. ADCOX: And as president, he's in charge of, by
14 the way, the
minutes. My memory of the meeting attended
15 by Atlantic Dry Dock,
and I did go, they were there -- I'm
16 not saying there's no
-- I'm talking about this particular
17 project. Yes,
they did come to the club, but not to
18 address this
project.
19
They came in, they talked about several things. And
20 my wife will probably
say a little bit more about it. And
21 they do refer to a
new pier. Nothing about a dry dock.
22 And so anyway, they
said that might occur in a few years
23 and if they did want
to go further, they'd come back and
24 address us
again. We're right there. We wanted to know
25 about this so we
could also study these issues. Nothing
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1 was indicated.
2
Mr. Seymore also indicated yesterday the reason there
3 was nothing written in
the meeting minutes was that there
4 was no significant
data being provided and no early
5 notice. The club
requires a month notice of the agenda
6 coming up. And
that's the reason why he said he never
7 wrote any meeting
minutes. I talked to him yesterday.
8
The second item I want to bring -- I only got three
9 items and I'll hurry
up. The second item is really for
10 you. The City
of Jacksonville has an intent, of course,
11 to create a cruise
business, they've done that. It is my
12 clear understanding
that because of the larger cruise
13 ships who can't get
underneath the JEA power lines, can't
14 get underneath the
Dames Point Bridge, that they really
15 would like to set up
a cruise terminal closer to the ocean
16 side that would
accommodate these much larger ships, the
17 Super Bowl and all
that, I guess you probably know, it has
18 been a problem.
19
This large -- there is a public ramp. Let me get
20 this right
here. This right here is Carlucci's ramp.
21 This area is being
considered by the City to put a new
22 cruise
terminal. I would ask that, you know, I'm sure
23 Atlantic Dry Dock
says it's going to say no. I'd ask that
24 you talk to Mayor
Peyton about what their plans are. It
25 is in the early
stages, but I know that the cruise
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1 business is really
taking off in Jacksonville and they
2 want the bigger
ships.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Where are the cruises? They are there
4 to have cruises taking
off --
5
MR. ADCOX: Yes, sir.
6
THE GOVERNOR: Where are they taking off from?
7
MR. ADCOX: They have to go underneath the Dames
8 Point Bridge with an
eight-foot clearance. And they are
9 smaller ships and
they're right now on the other side.
10 They had a big thing
in the paper about it.
11
THE GOVERNOR: On the other side?
12
MR. ADCOX: Yes, sir. The only way we can get the
13 larger ships is to
bring -- have a cruise terminal on this
14 side. My point
being about the cruise terminal, if they
15 put that huge dry
dock with that big blank 85 or 100-foot
16 high wall, there's
going to be no way they can get those
17 huge ships in there
and turn them around.
18
All right. The last matter -- and I just think Mayor
19 Peyton should be
consulted about what their plans are
20 about the business
end of it. But anyway, the last -- and
21 I don't work for
him. I was -- the last matter deals with
22 the liability.
There is no doubt that our waterfront
23 property is going to
have severe erosion. In the last
24 year or two years
since they put this other dry dock, I've
25 lost at least a foot
of sand and I can prove that. The
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1 value of our property
will diminish and the whole nine
2 yards.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Hang on a second. This is the third
4 time this has been
brought up. I'm asking sincerely, I'm
5 not asking knowing the
answer. They haven't done what
6 they are proposing to
do yet and there is erosion.
7
MR. ADCOX: That's correct, from the existing one.
8 See, there is already
one just like it but smaller there.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Why is the dry dock a problem for
10 erosion? I'm
missing -- I think we'll ask DEP.
11
MR. ADCOX: There's been no study done by an
12 independent
person. Let Dry Dock pay for the study. I
13 mean, come on.
They paid for the study. They did the
14 whole scenario.
We have not been an afforded an
15 opportunity to do our
own study to counteract theirs' and
16 that's the problem
here. We haven't been given due
17 process. And I
think they should be held -- anyway, the
18 bottom line is I
would hope that they would be held liable
19 for whatever happens
down the road if this goes through.
20 In conclusion, with
all this information, I would hope
21 that you would not
destroy this property, this whole
22 island. It is a
beautiful island, it is a historic
23 island. I would
appreciate -- just put it on hold and
24 let's study this
thing.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Appreciate you coming. Secretary
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1 Castille, have you-all
made contact with the City of
2 Jacksonville?
3
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, we did make contact. I believe I
4 can state that Mayor
Peyton is supportive of this project.
5 Yes, the city.
6
THE GOVERNOR: And what about the question, it seems
7 like a legitimate
question to me, if the cruise ship
8 terminal, what's the
--
9
MR. TAYLOR: The current cruise ship terminal is
10 further west of
Carlucci Park, that was pointed out. So
11 it's even further
inland.
12
THE GOVERNOR: If it's -- how many feet clear?
13 Eight feet clear for
smaller cruise ships, I guess they
14 don't aspire --
15
MR. TAYLOR: To a larger facility.
16
THE GOVERNOR: Is that -- are you sure?
17
MR. TAYLOR: No, I'm not. My assumption is the City
18 may be looking for
that but that's not something I'm aware
19 of.
20
THE GOVERNOR: Was there a specific question related
21 to this property as
the mayor, the mayor's office from an
22 economic development
perspective, have they been asked
23 about this and the
possible conflict of two significant
24 economic development
opportunities next to each other that
25 may be in conflict
with one another?
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1
MR. TAYLOR: No, sir. They have not asked us at DEP.
2
MS. CASTILLE: Did we ask them?
3
THE GOVERNOR: We haven't asked them?
4
MR. TAYLOR: The only other connection, and I'm
5 familiar with the city
government, is the port working
6 with the applicant and
I think the applicant can speak to
7 that better than
me.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Let's hear from the applicant. I
9 think this may be the
last. Oh, you want to speak?
10 Please. This
will be our last item until we break.
11
MS. ADCOX: Thank you, Governor Bush, I appreciate
12 the opportunity to
speak before you and the cabinet today.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Are there any other speakers before we
14 hear from the
applicant?
15
MS. ADCOX: I'm the last one. I guess they thought
16 that my husband would
take my place. I'm Barbara Adcox,
17 John's wife. I
live roughly 200 feet from Atlanta Dry
18 Dock's easterly
property line. I wanted to tell you that
19 we were not notified
by Atlantic Dry Dock of their intent
20 to permit these two
new dry docks and additional pier. We
21 were not notified by
the DEP nor were we notified by the
22 Corps of
Engineers. I found out roughly three weeks ago
23 from Nancy O'Donnell,
who was notified by the DEP of this
24 permit
application. Rick Collins was notified by the
25 Corps of Engineers
and he lives in Alaska, he doesn't even
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1 live there, and he
told us about it. Once I received
2 notification from
Nancy of the intended permit, I wrote to
3 DEP in protest of this
application. The DEP sent me back
4 a response and a copy
of their intent to issue a permit
5 with specific
conditions.
6
I also received a letter from Atlantic Dry Dock, not
7 giving me any
resolutions but inviting me to come take a
8 site visit at the
shipyard and we could discuss our
9 concerns. I will
tell you that early last year Atlantic
10 Dry Dock, Mr.
Herschel Vineyard and Ed Flemming did make
11 an unannounced visit
to our Hecksher Drive Community Club.
12 I was at the club
meeting that particular night. They
13 talked about several
items. First they talked about a
14 vessel that they were
getting ready to dock and they
15 invited all the
residents to attend the dockage of this
16 vessel. They
talked about a pontoon-type barge that
17 they're stuck with
because their client backed out and the
18 barge is sitting in
Sister's Creek or intercoastal
19 waterway.
20
And then they did talk briefly about the potential of
21 somewhere in the
future maybe having to add another pier
22 to facilitate their
growth. They did not mention anything
23 about additional dry
docks. The community club and the
24 community members as
a whole were already up in arms about
25 the existing 600-foot
dry dock that Atlantic Dry Dock
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1 installed in the year
2000. They installed this dry dock
2 based on a
ten-year-old dredging permit that allowed them
3 to do that. And
so we could not contest it at that time
4 because they were
acting on a permit that they already
5 had.
6
During that meeting with the Hecksher Drive Community
7 Club, they did assure
us that we would be properly
8 notified should they
move forward with their intent to
9 permit that, that at
this time there were no contracts in
10 place, there was no
activity, they were not doing
11 anything. Well,
as it turns out, evidently at least nine
12 months ago, in June
of last year, Atlantic Dry Dock
13 started this permit
application process without notifying
14 any -- without
notifying my husband and I.
15
The DEP notified Nancy O'Donnell in February. So
16 I've known about it
roughly for three weeks. Atlantic Dry
17 Dock has had nine
months to prepare their studies, to get
18 their
evaluations. We've had basically three weeks to get
19 our act
together. What I'm asking is that we be given
20 additional time to
evaluate this situation because I can
21 give you firsthand
testimony about the existing dry dock
22 and the problems that
it's already causing for us, the
23 residents and the
community members. There is noise
24 pollution, there is
light pollution, there is air
25 pollution, there is
water pollution, there is shore
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1 erosion. There
is loss of privacy and there is loss of
2 overall well-being
because of living next to this
3 industrial
facility.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Could I ask you a question?
5
MS. ADCOX: Yes, sir.
6
THE GOVERNOR: Was this development that is adjacent
7 to the Atlantic ship
building, was it developed -- were
8 the houses built after
the facility was built?
9
MS. ADCOX: We purchased our land on McKenna Drive in
10 1991. At that
time, the shipyards in downtown
11 Jacksonville were
quite active. Atlantic Dry Dock was
12 nothing more --
13
THE GOVERNOR: But all the development to the north,
14 I guess, it's north
at least --
15
MS. ADCOX: It would be to the east of it.
16
THE GOVERNOR: The east, I'm sorry. Were those
17 houses built with the
existing -- with the facility may
18 be --
19
MS. ADCOX: In its limited capacity, yes, sir.
20 Atlantic Dry Dock was
there, has been there since the '60s
21 and was basically
pretty dormant at the time we bought our
22 property. There
are numerous, numerous new houses being
23 developed along Fort
George Island. It's just a beautiful
24 pristine area.
I'm not prepared today to argue with all
25 of the issues brought
about by the claims that I have.
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1 I'm just asking that
we as the residents in the community
2 be given equitable
time to perform our own studies and
3 make our own
evaluations before this be approved.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you for being here. Secretary
5 Castille, what of the
question of notification from the
6 property owners?
What are you required to do and what did
7 you do?
8
MS. CASTILLE: You're required to notify those
9 property owners who
are within 500 feet of your project.
10 In this case,
Atlantic Dry Dock went beyond what was
11 required. And I
would like to ask Mr. Herschel Vineland
12 (sic) from Atlantic
Dry Dock if he can explain to you
13 everything that he's
done.
14
MR. VINEYARD: Governor, I have a full presentation
15 but I'm going to be
very brief because you're standing up.
16
(Laughter.)
17
THE GOVERNOR: That's me, it's not you.
18
MR. VINEYARD: Members of the cabinet --
19
MS. CASTILLE: I'm sorry, I have to correct myself.
20 This is a
modification and notice is not required for
21 modification.
We have lawyers that are arguing.
22
MR. VINEYARD: Governor, real quickly. Two of the
23 issues that were
brought up. Cruise ships, actually
24 Jacksonville Seaport
Authority is using this expansion as
25 a sales point to the
cruise companies. Imagine, you could
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1 say, Mr. Cruise
Company, you can come offload your
2 passengers. You
don't have to go to Virginia to get your
3 dry docking done or
your repairs done. You go just a very
4 short distance and
that saves them multiple days of travel
5 time to go get the
repairs done. So the cruise ships are
6 actually
excited. The seaport authority told me that they
7 were using our
expansion as a sales point. So I gather
8 that was an issue for
you and I just wanted to let you
9 know.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Well, the issue is really related at
11 this turn. If
that's the potential cruise port because of
12 the bridge heights
and all that, I don't know if the Coast
13 Guard has looked at
that.
14
MR. VINEYARD: Well, you can imagine -- and the
15 answer is, yes, the
seaport authority is looking at that
16 property. And
just so you know, as far as a navigational
17 issue, I have a copy
which I've given to Ms. Castille, a
18 letter from the Saint
Johns River Pilot's Association.
19 They're the guys that
have to drive those big ships in.
20 And they sent a
letter to you yesterday in full support of
21 this project.
So the navigational issue, not only has the
22 Coast Guard said that
this is not a problem, but the bar
23 pilots in their
notice to you said that's not a problem
24 either.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
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1
MR. VINEYARD: Any other questions from members of
2 the cabinet or you,
Governor?
3
THE GOVERNOR: Why do you need to do this? Business
4 good?
5
MR. VINEYARD: That's a great question, Governor.
6 Thankfully, the Port
of Jacksonville is growing and we're
7 having more commercial
ships come in as well as additional
8 military
activity. The commercial ships are growing, the
9 size. 60 percent
of the ships that pass right past our
10 shipyard, we can't
serve. They're too large. With this
11 dry dock, we can
actually get that business, keep those
12 Florida manufacturing
jobs here and not have them go to
13 Virginia where
they're going today.
14
In addition, military ships, we have the contract to
15 dry dock all the
ships at Mayport Naval Station but we're
16 looking ahead.
We know right now the Navy is designing
17 and soon building the
new generation of warships. We
18 can't lift
them. If those ships are going to be done in
19 Jacksonville, we've
got to make these plans and
20 arrangements to get a
bigger dry dock.
21
There are 13 cargo ships that serve our troops in
22 Iraq and they go in
and out of Jacksonville. Not one of
23 them, not one of them
can we dry dock. Governor, I know
24 you know the Virginia
politicians are eager to get the
25 Kennedy away from
us. And right now they're feasting on
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1 those 13 cargo
ships. We'd like for those jobs and that
2 work to stay in
Florida.
3
THE GOVERNOR: The question -- this is really for
4 Colleen. The
question of environmental impacts, is
5 someone here to
discuss the impacts today and what the
6 impacts will be going
forward for the proposal?
7
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir, there are. I'm going to ask
8 Mario Taylor if he'll
come up to address them.
9
THE GOVERNOR: If you could concisely describe,
10 you've heard the
concerns expressed by the property
11 owners.
12
MR. TAYLOR: Yes.
13
THE GOVERNOR: If you could explain to me, and maybe
14 the rest of you guys
understand this, but I'm a little
15 confused about these
impacts today and why there would be
16 greater impacts going
forward.
17
MR. TAYLOR: Well, Governor, to our knowledge, based
18 on the studies that's
been done, and I have the Taylor
19 Environmental
Engineering study regarding erosion. There
20 are no environmental
impacts today on erosion or will be
21 none in the
future.
22
THE GOVERNOR: The erosion occurs irrespective of
23 the --
24
MS. CASTILLE: Let me address this. Governor, this
25 is the Mayport Naval
Station where the Army Corps of
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1 Engineers keeps a
pretty well-maintained dredged channel.
2 The channel is
currently dredged to about 40 feet now to
3 allow for the passage
of large ships. The study that the
4 neighbors have
referred to is an Army Corps of Engineers
5 study that is a
two-fold study and it's not in process
6 yet. They've
done a feasibility study for the upcoming
7 study. But the
purpose is two-fold: To address the
8 erosion along all
sides of the river at this point because
9 there's massive
amounts of water that pass through this
10 waterway.
11
But secondly, they desire to dredge it to 45 feet to
12 allow for the passage
of even larger ships. So the Army
13 Corps of Engineers is
doing the study. They recognize
14 that erosion is part
of it and will hopefully address the
15 erosion. It's a
matter of the natural features of this
16 piece of property
being at the point and in a bend in the
17 river.
18
MR. TAYLOR: The only other issues that I can recall,
19 Governor, was
regarding issues of noise. The City of
20 Jacksonville has a
pretty aggressive both air and water
21 program and there
have been no noise complaints other than
22 one filed last year
in the entire history. And I don't
23 recall if another one
was mentioned.
24
THE GOVERNOR: Any questions? Any discussion?
25 Everybody has
spoken. Is there a motion?
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1
GENERAL CRIST: Motion.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Is there a second?
3
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Any other discussion? All in favor
5 signify by saying
aye. All opposed. (No response.) Very
6 good.
7
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, Governor, members of the
8 cabinet. I
realize that you have an 11:45 appointment.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Can I ask a question?
10
THE GOVERNOR: Yes, Treasurer.
11
CFO GALLAGHER: Do we have a lot of people here to
12 talk about the
pipelines because I think those are the
13 only two issues that
are left.
14
MS. CASTILLE: We do.
15
THE GOVERNOR: How many people?
16
CFO GALLAGHER: Is that against? Got a bunch of
17 people against?
18
MS. CASTILLE: No, I don't believe we do.
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Bunch of people for?
20
MS. CASTILLE: There's two people against it. And I
21 think mostly
everybody here is either staff or are for it.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: That sounds like we might be able --
23
THE GOVERNOR: I've got some -- Commissioner, I got
24 questions on the
issues. This is big-time stuff and I'd
25 rather --
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: Could we do this then?
2
THE GOVERNOR: There is a lot riding on this for the
3 applicants and I got
real concerns about some
4 environmental
issues. And I don't want to rush it.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: I thought maybe we could hold these
6 up to the next cabinet
meeting.
7
THE GOVERNOR: In Leesburg?
8
CFO GALLAGHER: Leesburg or here, whichever.
9
MS. CASTILLE: I think one of the applicants is at
10 least waiting on this
to move forward with other
11 applications,
AES.
12
THE GOVERNOR: Why don't we do this. If we could --
13 we'll come back at
12:30 and that way the commissioners
14 will have a time to
go through this, we'll do Coleman's
15 issues very quickly,
Coleman, if you don't mind. And
16 we'll be
finished. And that way we can have a thoughtful
17 discussion about some
of this. It's a big deal to me.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: Governor, we could probably do
19 Coleman's in less
than 30 seconds.
20
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. We can do that.
21
MS. CASTILLE: And there are also members of the
22 Bahamian Port
Authority here who have come to speak on
23 that issue.
24
(Break in testimony.)
25
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98
1
THE GOVERNOR: State Board of Administration.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on the minutes.
3
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Item 1, there is a motion and a
5 second. Without
objection, the item passes.
6
Item 2.
7
MR. STIPANOVICH: Is a request for approval of fiscal
8 sufficiency of an
amount not exceeding --
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on two.
10
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
12 objection, the item
passes.
13
MR. STIPANOVICH: Third and final item. Again,
14 approval of fiscal
determination of amounts not exceeding
15 7,900,000, tax
exempt, and 4,640 --
16
CFO GALLAGHER: Motion on 3.
17
GENERAL CRIST: Second.
18
MR. STIPANOVICH: Thank you, Governor, and members.
19
THE GOVERNOR: Moved and seconded. Without
20 objection, the item
passes.
21
So we will convene back at 12:30 to finish the Board
22 of Trustees.
23
(Thereupon, a recess was had at 11:57 p.m.)
24
25
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99
1
THE GOVERNOR: Colleen, would you like to start?
2
MS. CASTILLE: Thank you, Governor and Commissioner
3 Bronson. We are
taking up, on the Board of Trustees'
4 agenda item for March
9th, this is substitute Item 7. The
5 request is AES Ocean
Express, LLC and it's a recommended
6 consolidated intent
for a new gas, natural gas pipeline
7 across the ocean from
the Bahamas to Fort Lauderdale.
8
AES Ocean Express proposes to own, construct, and
9 operate and maintain a
24-inch in diameter natural gas
10 pipeline and
associated above-ground facilities that
11 originate in the
exclusive economic zone designated as
12 mile post 0.0.
It extends 51 miles through the ocean
13 floor and state
waters and terminates onto two delivery
14 points in central
eastern Broward County. The pipeline
15 will interconnect at
its origination point, an AES Ocean K
16 pipeline. Ocean
K pipeline is to be constructed by a
17 Bahamian affiliate of
Ocean Express and will originate at
18 AES Ocean K liquified
natural gas facility.
19
The AES pipeline is -- the AES has their FERC
20 certification.
They have -- they will impact 3.7 -- I'm
21 sorry, 3.27 acres of
hard bottom and mitigation will
22 require them to
remove tires that are previous artificial
23 reefs that were put
in in the late '70s, early '80s --
24
THE GOVERNOR: How many tires?
25
MS. CASTILLE: -- by Broward County.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: How many tires?
2
MS. CASTILLE: 117,000 credits which equals how many
3 tires? 117,000
tires.
4
THE GOVERNOR: Colleen, if -- I may have
5 misunderstood
you. But the pipeline is being constructed
6 by --
7
MS. CASTILLE: AES.
8
THE GOVERNOR: AES is building the pipeline?
9
MS. CASTILLE: Yes.
10
THE GOVERNOR: I thought you mentioned some other
11 entity?
12
MS. CASTILLE: In the Bahamian affiliate, Ocean
13 Express.
14
THE GOVERNOR: Is that for the LNG facility or is
15 that the pipeline
itself?
16
MS. CASTILLE: Where's Richard Brightman? Here he
17 is.
18
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Good morning, Governor. Richard
19 Brightman on behalf
of AES Ocean Express. Ocean Express
20 is an American
company that's going to build the pipeline
21 only in America up to
the exclusive economic zone. From
22 that point,
obviously, there will be another pipeline that
23 connects to it that
will be owned and operated by a
24 Bahamian affiliate of
AES that will connect to the LNG
25 facility in the
Bahamas.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: The question really relates to who is
2 liable. Is AES
liable for any malfunctions in the
3 construction of the
pipeline?
4
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
5
THE GOVERNOR: We look to AES, not to any subsidiary
6 or not to a Bahamian
company or not to anybody else?
7
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That is correct.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
9
MS. CASTILLE: The actual AES wanted to make a
10 two-minute
presentation which I'd like to let them do if
11 you don't mind,
sir. We're going to let staff go first.
12
THE GOVERNOR: What staff?
13
MS. CASTILLE: My staff.
14
MR. RACH: We prepared a presentation that we
15 provided to cabinet
aides and we're really here to address
16 any questions you
have specifically about the project. We
17 haven't prepared a
presentation per se.
18
THE GOVERNOR: You haven't?
19
MS. CASTILLE: We have a long one.
20
MR. RACH: It's still on the computer so we can bring
21 it up.
22
MS. CASTILLE: We don't want to do the long one.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Has this been done before, this type
24 of technology, for
boring down 100 feet below the reef?
25
MR. RACH: There have been similar projects. If you
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1 remember the fiber
optic projects, those projects --
2
THE GOVERNOR: I don't remember it being 100 feet
3 down. Was it
that deep?
4
MR. RACH: I'm not sure exactly. I'm not sure if
5 they were that
deep.
6
THE GOVERNOR: What happens if the geology is -- how
7 do you know if you can
do it? So much for the DEP staff.
8
MS. CASTILLE: Actually, I would like the AES to do
9 their presentation,
please.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Well, I want to make sure that if,
11 with all due respect
to the applicant, that we have some
12 capability to
understand these things as well. After all,
13 it's our land.
And if there is anything you disagree
14 with, please let me
know. I'm sure what will be said is
15 accurate and all
that. But, you know, this is -- it was a
16 simple
question: Has this been done before. And,
17 Colleen, I'd like to
know if the staff or someone in the
18 Department of
Environmental Protection can answer that
19 question. If
they can't, how can we regulate them?
20
MR. RACH: During our review process of processing
21 these applications,
we requested numerous information from
22 both applicants to
provide us with assurances that the
23 technology and
techniques they are performing are feasible
24 and workable.
And we incorporate safeguards in the event
25 that there are
accidents, if you will, that there will be
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1 rapid recovery of the
reefs. There's performance bonds,
2 mitigation bonds as
safeguards to provide us assurances
3 that if there are any
accidents in terms of impacts to the
4 reefs that they --
5
THE GOVERNOR: Has it been done before?
6
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
7
THE GOVERNOR: Just a simple question. I'm sorry
8 to --
9
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
10
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you. Has it been done in
11 Florida before?
12
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Where?
14
MR. BRIGHTMAN: It was done by the Gulfstream
15 pipeline that was
constructed a couple of years ago on the
16 west coast of Florida
when they drilled from Port Manatee
17 out to a little
island called Spoil Island and then
18 drilled out from
Spoil Island under some seagrass beds to
19 a point where the
pipeline was then trenched.
20
THE GOVERNOR: Using the same technology?
21
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Using the same technology, horizontal
22 drilling technology,
yes.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: How deep did they make it?
24
MR. BRIGHTMAN: I don't know the exact depth that the
25 Gulfstream pipeline
drill went. They were shorter drills.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Have they gone through -- I mean,
2 grass is -- the coral
reef, I assume, is a different
3 substructure than
grass. Is it --
4
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The drill does not go through either
5 the coral reefs or the
grass. It goes well beneath,
6 through the solid rock
that supports those structures on
7 the surface.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. So the technology exists for
9 that kind of deep
boring?
10
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes, sir, it does.
11
THE GOVERNOR: And then there is an element of
12 this -- or is that
the other applicant -- where you do --
13 you're going above
the reefs.
14
MR. BRIGHTMAN: We are not installing the pipe over
15 the reef
permanently. In order to do the HDD, you have to
16 first --
17
THE GOVERNOR: What's HDD?
18
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Excuse me. Horizontal directional
19 drill. That's
the technology we're talking about. In
20 order to do that, you
first drill the hole. And then you
21 have to pull the
string of pipe into the hole. And during
22 that relatively short
period of construction in pulling
23 that pipe into the
hole that's already been drilled, it
24 will be floated over
one section of the reef.
25
THE GOVERNOR: And that's only temporarily?
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105
1
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's only temporarily, during the
2 construction.
About a couple, a few weeks at most.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
4
CFO GALLAGHER: How long is the hole?
5
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The offshore -- or the landfall HDD?
6
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Landfall HDD is 6100 feet
7 long.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: How much?
9
MR. BRIGHTMAN: 6100 feet.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: More than a mile?
11
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's correct.
12
MR. RACH: There have been longer drills done before
13 on other
projects.
14
CFO GALLAGHER: Longer than a mile.
15
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
16
CFO GALLAGHER: And pipe pulled through. Where does
17 it come up, way
upland?
18
THE GOVERNOR: This graph that we have here is a
19 little difficult to
read. Is there a better one that
20 shows the outer reef
and the inner reef? Maybe yours is
21 bigger -- better on
the television.
22
That's better. It's still kind of -- now we're
23 talking. Thank
you.
24
MR. RACH: This is the third reef. We have the outer
25 second reef, the
inner second reef. The first directional
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106
1 drill is going beyond
the inner reef, second inner reef.
2 Then they're lying in
between the two. Then it's going
3 through a smaller gap
and then directional drilling
4 underneath the third
reef.
5
CFO GALLAGHER: The one that's run up and down that
6 long thing, that's the
reef you're building at --
7
MR. BRIGHTMAN: No, that's in a sand area between the
8 two sections of the
second reef.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: Okay. So that's sitting up --
10
MR. BRIGHTMAN: On the surface covered with concrete
11 mats, yes. On
the surface of the ocean floor, not on the
12 surface of the
water.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: That's covered with poured concrete.
14
MR. BRIGHTMAN: No, they're articulated concrete
15 mats. They're
large mats, 10 by 20 or so feet with 1 feet
16 or so squared
concrete blocks that are tied together so
17 they can bend and
mold to the shape of the pipe.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: And then sand will just accumulate.
19
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Exactly.
20
CFO GALLAGHER: Then you've gone under the first
21 reef, slide that
down, please.
22
THE GOVERNOR: Do you have a two-minute slide show
23 that goes through
some of this so we don't --
24
MS. CASTILLE: We have a presentation that's on the
25 computer that we can
pull up.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Yeah, but you didn't want to do it.
2 So that's why we're
asking these questions.
3
MS. CASTILLE: I was trying to do the time frame, you
4 know, keeping in mind
the time.
5
THE GOVERNOR: We ended up spending more time --
6
MS. CASTILLE: You're right. Let's go ahead and pull
7 up that data.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Maybe that answers some of the -- if
9 we can just get the
two minutes done and then we'll start
10 grilling you
again.
11
(Pause.)
12
While you're preparing it, I hope that one of the
13 first questions
answered is why we didn't use the same
14 corridors that we
established, as you recall, after
15 several years, why
didn't we use the same corridors
16 instead of the
directional drilling below the reefs and
17 being on top of the
reefs temporarily? Why didn't we use
18 the same darn
corridors that we spent two years in
19 excruciating pain to
create finally with approvals for the
20 telecom
companies?
21
CFO GALLAGHER: Because they're liable to cut through
22 the telecom line
doing it.
23
MS. CASTILLE: It is going through a mini gap here.
24 But the --
25
THE GOVERNOR: A mini gap?
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1
MS. CASTILLE: A mini gap instead of one of the
2 larger gaps. And
the reason why we didn't do it is
3 because it's
significantly south of the Port Everglades
4 inlet and it would end
up going through neighborhoods
5 versus this that goes
straight in and goes over to the
6 port --
7
THE GOVERNOR: Secretary, we have -- they have
8 done -- you know, they
did the dip in between the reefs.
9 Why couldn't you do
the same with the gaps that we
10 established after two
years of review for the telecom?
11
MR. BRIGHTMAN: We go through gaps, just different
12 gaps. We
evaluated and the gaps that were established
13 during the
telecommunications rulemaking were specifically
14 evaluated by FERC as
alternatives when they did their
15 environmental impact
statement and the conclusion was that
16 this is the best
route.
17
One thing that you need to understand about these
18 gaps, both the gaps
that were identified in the
19 telecommunications
rulemaking and the gaps that we're
20 currently using,
they're gaps in a single one of the three
21 reefs, not gaps in
all of the reefs. You can't -- there
22 is no place where
there are gaps lined up in all the three
23 reefs where you can
just lay the pipe out without going
24 through the
reefs.
25
So we have identified a different gap and we have
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1 used that gap in the
siting of this line.
2
THE GOVERNOR: I don't see where --
3
MR. BRIGHTMAN: There are actually two gaps that are
4 being used.
5
THE GOVERNOR: Is that the outer reef?
6
MR. BRIGHTMAN: There is a large gap in the third
7 reef which is being
used for the pullback string for the
8 landfall HDD and then
there is a smaller gap in reef to
9 outer that is being
used to place the pipeline in as it
10 goes offshore toward
the offshore HDD.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Thank you.
12
MR. RACH: This is the larger gap they are using to
13 pull the
pipeline.
14
THE GOVERNOR: All right. Let's get the two-minute
15 drill down.
Two-minute warning.
16
MR. RACH: My name is Tim Rach with Southeast
17 District.
18
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you, Tim.
19
MR. RACH: This is the offshore route for the AES
20 Ocean Express
pipeline. We've identified four different
21 habitat types that
the pipelines, both pipelines, will be
22 impacting.
Habitat A is your higher relief, higher
23 density reef, coral
reef. Habitat B is a little bit lower
24 relief and lower
dense -- or a lower diversity coral reef.
25 Habitat C is the
submerged breakwater spoil area that is
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1 only applicable for
the Tractebel Calypso project.
2 Habitat D is your sand
habitat that's in between or in
3 close proximity to the
reef systems or it's sand on top of
4 a harsh substrate that
is ephemeral, that moves back and
5 forth.
6
AES Ocean Express, the offshore construction you see
7 in the slide, their
float-over pullback is going through
8 that larger gap.
It's within the Navy restricted area,
9 therefore, they
weren't able to get authority to
10 permanently land the
pipe through that gap. But they have
11 gotten permission to
at least do some type of work with
12 pulling it in.
As you can see in the -- first, they are
13 doing their onshore
horizontal directional drill, doing
14 the float-over,
pullback through that area. They're doing
15 the direct lay with
the concrete mats in between the
16 second reef inner and
the second reef outer and then
17 they're going through
a smaller gap through the second
18 reef outer doing
another offshore water-to-water
19 horizontal
directional drill to go underneath the third
20 reef.
21
THE GOVERNOR: How deep is the water there?
22
THE WITNESS:
23
MR. RACH: It's about 80, 80 feet. 60 to 80 feet in
24 that area.
Quickly going over some -- I'm not -- I'll
25 just touch on a
few. In terms of avoidance minimization
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1 of their design,
they've selected routes to avoid the
2 Habitat A, which is
that higher relief, higher diversity.
3 They've had temporary
work areas implemented, a coral
4 relocation plan.
Doing the horizontal directional drills.
5 They've realigned
their concrete mats covering the
6 pipeline.
They've initiated a frack out monitoring
7 program, sedimentation
monitoring and have accepted a
8 lower turbidity unit
to ensure that turbidity does not
9 affect the adjacent
reefs.
10
In terms of impacts, they have no impacts to Type A.
11 They do have 1.2
acres of impacts to Type B coral reefs.
12 No impacts to type C
which is not applicable for this
13 location. And
2.07 acres of Type D sand habitat impacts,
14 for a total of 3.27
acres. Their mitigation is going to
15 be a total of what
we're calling 8.07 mitigation units,
16 which a mitigation
unit is essentially a little over
17 14,000 tires.
So total tires removed in the mitigation
18 area is 117,176 tires
--
19
THE GOVERNOR: Mitigation units, is that arbitrary?
20
MR. RACH: We -- designing the mitigation plan with
21 our sister agencies
and the federal agencies, we looked at
22 the density of the
tires off the coast and they've
23 averaged about 3 feet
deep up to seven layers' thickness.
24
THE GOVERNOR: I know. But if you got rid of 117,000
25 tires, you're trying
to convert that to numbers of acres
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1 to reach some -- it's
the tires' removal irrespective of
2 the number of acres,
right, that matters.
3
MR. RACH: Right. It's the total tires removed.
4
THE GOVERNOR: That's a lot of tires.
5
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Governor, can I ask a
6 question?
7
THE GOVERNOR: Sure.
8
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Now how many -- you're talking
9 about removal of
117,000 tires, I believe it is?
10
MR. RACH: Correct.
11
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Now did I read or see
12 somewhere where there
is 2 million tires out there?
13
MR. RACH: Rough estimate, yes.
14
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: So there's been 2 million
15 tires dumped out
there?
16
MR. RACH: Correct.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Two million?
18
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: So my understanding is some of
19 those tires that were
originally linked to create a
20 reef --
21
MR. RACH: Artificial reef.
22
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Which amazes me because you
23 can go offshore to
any of the battle sites of World War II
24 and while all their
equipment has a lot of coral
25 attached -- or not
coral, but crustation attached to it,
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1 the tires have
none. So I'm really surprised that anybody
2 ever thought you could
build a coral reef with rubber
3 tires.
4
But anyway, so we got 2 million tires out there.
5 They are going to
mitigate by pulling off 117,000. And
6 these other loose
tires, when we have a big hurricane come
7 ashore, is going to be
churning up the rest of these
8 2 million tires and
floating them in and bumping them into
9 all this stuff; is
that correct?
10
MR. RACH: That's correct.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Dr. McCallister will give us a little
12 history lesson on how
the heck we came up with that idea
13 to put 2 million
tires off the waters of Florida.
14
MR. RACH: Essentially the areas that we've
15 determined as
priority areas in terms of tire removal, the
16 intention is to
remove majority of the tires off the face
17 of the reef and the
tires that are rolling back into that
18 area so that area
won't fill back up.
19
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Even with the churning of
20 tidal waters with
hurricanes and stuff, it's not going to
21 churn up the loose
tires?
22
MR. RACH: Based upon the analysis that Broward
23 County has looked at
through the years they've determined
24 the movements of the
tires and the direction that the
25 tires are
going. So that's how the mitigation plan has
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1 been designed.
2
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Well, you know, I'm going to
3 tell you, this reminds
me a little bit of what some of the
4 guys down around the
Everglades are going through.
5 Evidently, when this
was done everybody thought this was
6 a, quote, sound
practice. And that's how the guys around
7 the Everglades had
it. They were doing sound practices
8 from 30, 40 years ago
and now they're going to have to pay
9 for all of the
reclamation there and it sounds like this
10 is about like the
same thing. Everybody thought it was a
11 good idea when they
did it but now we're stuck with all
12 these tires out
there. Now whoever puts the pipeline in
13 has to clear
117,000. But what do we do with the rest of
14 the 2 million?
15
MR. RACH: We would hope that future beach
16 renourishment
projects or other coastal projects would use
17 this area as a
mitigation plan to remove additional tires
18 in the future.
19
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Some divers did it for a long
20 time.
21
MR. RACH: It essentially has been the Agency's
22 standpoint that we
would rather see restoration of the
23 existing natural reef
versus adding more concrete modules.
24 We feel that this is
a more beneficial project than
25 installing more
artificial reefs.
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1
THE GOVERNOR: Okay.
2
MR. RACH: In terms of environmental concerns,
3 float-over method,
possible drilling, mud releases with
4 horizontal directional
drilling, staff's response for
5 those in terms of what
we incorporated into the permit,
6 we're limiting this --
these types of techniques to one
7 try. If you fail
on that attempt, you're going to have to
8 come back to the
agencies and request a modification.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Is that the same for the other
10 applicant?
11
MR. RACH: Yes. We're requesting that the reef
12 construction, the
onshore portion, be done first prior to
13 any pipelines that
are coming from the Bahamas. So
14 therefore if for one
reason or another there are accidents
15 or it's not able to
be constructed, that we don't have,
16 you know, a few
million dollars of pipeline sitting out
17 beyond our shorelines
waiting to come in.
18
We've instituted an inadvertent coral impact bond
19 where if there are
some impacts, there is money already
20 set aside to do that
mitigation. We're requiring two
21 times the mitigation
based upon those habitat types for
22 any unpermitted
impacts. And, also, there's a third-party
23 inspector that's
going to be out there daily reporting to
24 the agencies.
25
THE GOVERNOR: What about on -- I'm sorry, Treasurer.
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: Two times seems like an awful low
2 number considering you
can't replace coral. I mean, it
3 takes hundreds of
years to grow back. How did you come up
4 with that number?
5
THE GOVERNOR: Looks like he was negotiating.
6
MR. RACH: We essentially, for each habitat type,
7 we've instituted a
mitigation ratio going from Habitat A,
8 being the highest, at
eight to one. So if they impact a
9 Habitat A, that's not
a permitted impact, they're looking
10 at 16 to one which
is, you know, if you do the, in terms
11 of the mitigation
cost, it's pretty substantial.
12
THE GOVERNOR: What do you consider to be the -- two
13 questions. What
do you consider to be the greatest risk
14 as it relates to the
construction of this, and any comment
15 at all on on-land
considerations and concerns as well
16 since this hooks up
several miles from the port.
17
MR. RACH: Right. I think the greatest risk in terms
18 of the offshore
portion would be the float-over and pull
19 back for that.
If the floats fail, you have the potential
20 for that pipeline to
roll or break the reef. And the
21 other project has
similar types of concerns. They're not
22 doing the float-over,
they are doing a guided pole where
23 they are dragging,
pulling it through, back through the
24 holes that they just
drilled.
25
THE GOVERNOR: And on-land considerations, anything
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1 to worry about
there?
2
MR. RACH: Well, as Colleen said, the on-land portion
3 is mostly an
industrial area. It's essentially near the
4 port and
airport. So most of it is not in residential
5 areas and they are
doing associated trenching and
6 directional drills in
that location also.
7
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Is this the two-minute
8 proposal?
9
(Laughter.)
10
MR. RACH: The last slide is just talking about the
11 proprietary
fees. Essentially, they're based upon the
12 fiber optic
telecommunications rulemaking. In this case,
13 they are requesting a
larger easement area. So instead of
14 just the six cents,
it's going to be 15 cents per linear
15 foot and then also $5
per linear foot based upon actual
16 footprint of the
pipeline and any matting.
17
CFO GALLAGHER: How much is the Bahamian government
18 charging?
19
MR. RACH: I'm not sure.
20
THE GOVERNOR: A lot more.
21
CFO GALLAGHER: How about finding out for us?
22
THE GOVERNOR: I know.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: You do?
24
THE GOVERNOR: Actually, as we speak, I don't know if
25 our Bahamian guests
have checked back home, but at 10:00
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1 they had -- AES was in
front of the cabinet in the
2 Bahamas, I believe,
for approval of the Bahamian approval.
3 But their situation is
different in the sense that I think
4 it's 5 million plus
but it's also related to the LNG plant
5 itself which is a
significant difference than a pipeline,
6 I assume; is that
correct?
7
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Correct.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Did they get the approval?
9
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Don't know yet.
10
THE GOVERNOR: No one checked? No one called? I
11 should have done
that. Would have been good to know. If
12 they said no, we'd
need to move on to the next one.
13
MR. RACH: One last point I want to make. We
14 researched the prior
cabinet records back in '68, '70 and
15 '73. The
cabinet did approve the artificial reef, the
16 tire reef out
there. So our predecessors --
17
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Excuse me. So the cabinet in
18 '73 approved the use
so they must have thought it was
19 going to work when
they approved it or somebody gave them
20 the indication it
would work when they approved it. But
21 who did the
application come from?
22
MR. RACH: At the time, it was Broward Artificial
23 Reef
Incorporated?
24
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Florida Artificial Reef
25 Incorporated.
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1
MR. RACH: Broward Artificial Reef Incorporated.
2
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Oh, Broward. So it was a
3 private entity?
4
MR. RACH: I believe it was a private entity and
5 later those permits
were transferred to Broward County, I
6 believe, in the middle
'80s from the records we've been
7 able to pull.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Even Gallagher wasn't around.
9
(Laughter).
10
CFO GALLAGHER: '73, I was on my way. I was working
11 on it.
12
THE GOVERNOR: You wouldn't have supported that idea
13 though in retrospect,
right?
14
CFO GALLAGHER: If I would have known what I know
15 now, of course
not. Neither would anybody else.
16
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. Thank you. Colleen, do you
17 have any other -- do
you want to hear from the applicant?
18
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, I think it's time to hear from
19 the applicant.
Two minutes.
20
MR. BRIGHTMAN: She's going to hold me to it too.
21 (Laughter.)
Again, Richard Brightman on behalf of AES
22 Ocean Express,
LLC. I am accompanied by Don Bartlett, the
23 project manager from
AES, and by Eric Amadon, the
24 principal
environmental consultant for the project.
25
I just want to give you a little bit of history as to
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1 the approvals that
have already occurred for this project.
2 There was a FERC
certificate issued for this project on
3 January 29th after
about a two-year process which included
4 a full-blown
environmental impact statement with
5 cooperating agencies
being the Minerals Management Service
6 Corps of Engineers,
NOAA Fisheries, and the Federal
7 Department of
Transportation.
8
The time for appeal of that certificate has now run.
9 There was no
appeal. Broward County environmental
10 resource license was
issued for this project on
11 February 26th after
over a year of discussions and
12 providing information
to Broward County. The city of
13 Dania Beach on
February 24th issued an easement for the
14 portion, very small
portion of the pipeline that's going
15 through property that
is owned by the City of Dania Beach.
16
As the Governor mentioned in the Bahamas, as we
17 speak, or maybe
earlier today, the Bahamian portion of
18 this project is being
considered by the Bahamian cabinet.
19 That process began in
the fall of 2001. Their
20 environmental impact
assessment process was completed
21 already with
favorable results. What's before the cabinet
22 today is what's
called the heads of agreement which is, as
23 I understand it, the
commercial terms for the ultimate
24 approval of the
project. The project included three open
25 houses for the public
and the local community. At least
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1 seven or eight
multi-agency meetings where we had DEP,
2 Broward County, the
federal resource agencies all present
3 to discuss aspects of
the project and to determine how
4 this would be
done.
5
All those meetings resulted in a very thick document
6 that's called the
Environmental Construction Monitoring
7 and Verification
Plan. We call it the ECMVP which is a
8 bit of a tongue
twister, but it contains detailed plans,
9 procedures and
guidelines that control every step of the
10 construction of
this. This has been accepted by FERC now
11 as the standard by
which all pipeline projects will be
12 judged in the
future.
13
It incorporates lessons learned from previous
14 projects where
they've tried some of these techniques and
15 maybe some things
went wrong. We've learned from those
16 activities. And
as I said, it is now the standard for
17 approval of these
types of projects. This project is
18 important for
Florida's future. Florida needs more clean
19 burning gas to
generate the electricity that's projected
20 to be needed by the
Florida Electric Reliability Council.
21 But it's not just
about more gas.
22
This is -- this project represents an entirely new
23 source of gas.
It will increase the reliability of the
24 gas supply to the
state of Florida. It will increase the
25 diversity of the fuel
sources available to the citizens of
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1 Florida, and it will
provide some additional competitive
2 in the marketplace and
we request your approval.
3
THE GOVERNOR: Two minutes. Well done. Yes,
4 General.
5
GENERAL CRIST: Who will use it? Will it be provided
6 to a company to
disperse for citizen usage?
7
MR. BRIGHTMAN: This pipeline will be a common
8 carrier. It will
provide gas to whoever wants to purchase
9 it. It connects
to -- or will connect to the existing
10 pipeline
infrastructure in the area. And so the gas that
11 comes across on this
pipeline will be able to be delivered
12 wherever that current
pipeline system is.
13
THE GOVERNOR: That pipeline goes -- connects into
14 Broward and goes
north through the state, right?
15
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's correct. Actually, it even
16 goes to
Tallahassee.
17
THE GOVERNOR: Goes both.
18
MR. BRIGHTMAN: North and south, yes.
19
THE GOVERNOR: East and west.
20
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Right.
21
THE GOVERNOR: One of the issues that I -- are there
22 any other federal
permitting?
23
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The Minerals Management Service has
24 not yet issued their
--
25
THE GOVERNOR: The what?
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1
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The Minerals Management Service.
2
THE GOVERNOR: What's that?
3
MR. BRIGHTMAN: They are an agency within the
4 Department of the
Interior that has control over the
5 federally controlled
lands outside the territorial seas
6 and they would grant
what would be the equivalent of the
7 easement over
sovereign submerged lands which you are
8 currently considering
on the federal property.
9
THE GOVERNOR: International waters --
10
MR. BRIGHTMAN: International waters. It would be
11 outside of state
waters, yes.
12
THE GOVERNOR: How -- there are three proposals for a
13 gas pipeline to
connect to Florida from the Bahamas.
14 You're further
along. You have FERC approval, no one else
15 has that as I
understand it. You're further along in the
16 Bahamian
process. But in doing a little due diligence,
17 just reading the
Bahamian papers, it doesn't look like the
18 Bahamas is going to
not approve others just because
19 you-all went
first.
20
So what happens, we're going through this process to
21 approve three fairly
complicated -- looks complicated to
22 me at least, pipeline
proposals. All three of them going
23 to go forward or is
only one of them going to go forward?
24 And if that's the
case, General Crist asked a very good
25 question, which is
users. The major user in the area, I
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1 assume, is the utility
company. And they're not
2 partnering with you,
they are partnering with another
3 entity as I understand
it. Do they buy your gas? Give us
4 a little bit of the
business plan here.
5
MR. BRIGHTMAN: I can't speak for the utility
6 customer, whether they
would buy our gas, because they're
7 not here. I
would say that if I were them, I would buy
8 gas that was available
and if I needed gas. And if our
9 gas is available and
the other project isn't, then I would
10 buy our gas. By
the way, you mentioned three --
11
THE GOVERNOR: Do it backwards. Because that's a
12 good point. But
if you don't have a customer, are you
13 going to build the
pipeline irrespective? Are we going to
14 have three pipelines
or are we going to have one? Because
15 obviously, if Florida
Power & Light is a partner in one of
16 the gas transmission
proposals, I would assume that they
17 would probably be
more likely to buy gas from themselves
18 than from you.
19
MR. BRIGHTMAN: First of all, I think "partner" is
20 too strong a
word. It's my understanding they have an
21 option to become a
partner as opposed to an actual equity
22 share.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Same principle would apply, don't you
24 think?
25
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The other project, by the way, is a
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1 project in name
only. They've not filed any applications
2 anywhere in the United
States or at least as far as I know
3 in the Bahamas.
I don't know so much about the Bahamas.
4 But they filed no
applications in the United States,
5 either at the federal
level or at the state level.
6
THE GOVERNOR: News from the Bahamas, they've not
7 acted yet.
8
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Governor, another answer to your
9 question is that one
of the procedures that FERC goes
10 through in deciding
whether or not to issue the
11 certificate, the
first process that they go through is to
12 determine the
need. They do a market analysis as to
13 whether there is a
need for an additional -- ability to
14 transmit gas.
In this case, they've agreed there is a
15 need for ours.
Whether they agree there is need for
16 others, I don't
know.
17
THE GOVERNOR: That need is not defined as south
18 Florida or that need
is not defined as Florida. That's
19 defined as east
coast, correct?
20
MR. BRIGHTMAN: They determine the need for the
21 market in
general. They don't necessarily, to
22 circumscribe it in
terms of a particular geographic area.
23 The projections for
the need for gas are far in excess of
24 the capacity of this
pipeline or at least either of the
25 other two. So
--
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1
THE GOVERNOR: But that also, again, as I think is
2 the case, and correct
me if I'm wrong, please, the FERC
3 process would not be
Florida-specific or south
4
Florida-specific. It would be east coast. In other
5 words, this gas could
be transmitted through a pipeline
6 system up to
Philadelphia or to New Jersey or to Virginia.
7
MR. BARTLETT: Governor, my name is Don Bartlett, as
8 Richard indicated
earlier. While it is possible for the
9 gas physically to be
transported further north, we do not
10 anticipate that the
gas would go any further than probably
11 West Palm
Beach. If anything, it may defer gas traveling
12 the great distance
that it currently travels now in order
13 to serve
Florida. It's an opportunity for the state of
14 Florida through the
Florida Reliability Coordinating
15 Council, their own
need analysis has identified 2.4
16 billion cubic feet of
natural gas by the year 2010. We're
17 currently in 2004,
giving us six years -- less than six
18 years to bring you
some much needed infrastructure into
19 the state. Our
focus has primarily been serving the state
20 of Florida.
21
THE GOVERNOR: If FERC -- I'm just thinking. If we
22 become the port, is
it possible for this process to become
23 such that Florida is
the point of entry for natural gas
24 from the Carribean,
electrified and sent to the Bahamas,
25 produced, transmitted
over pipelines, and then we service
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1 the eastern United
States, just as Texas and Louisiana now
2 service the south and
Florida, in which case I'm not sure
3 that's a great deal
for us.
4
MR. BARTLETT: While it is technically possible for
5 that to take place,
the current infrastructure existing
6 onshore in the state
of Florida will not accommodate
7 numerous projects to
come in and continue to supply
8 natural gas until that
infrastructure would have to be
9 substantially
upgraded.
10
THE GOVERNOR: That's my concern. You get my
11 concern. I
don't know enough about the industry to know
12 if this is kind of a
once you get a port you become a port
13 of entry to the
extent that three applicants are coming
14 relatively in the
same place. Does that then, you know --
15 I'm not sure the
benefit of Florida for that. I see the
16 benefit of additional
sources of natural gas for our
17 growing
economy. I'm not sure of the benefit if we become
18 the port of entry for
other people's use and then we go
19 through the siting of
additional pipelines instead of to
20 bring it in to use we
create siting challenges for us up
21 the coast to export
it to our competitors. You don't see
22 that as an issue?
23
MR. BARTLETT: Governor, I'd be more concerned with
24 the opposite
scenario, if these projects did not move
25 forward, that the
current infrastructure would be
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1 upgraded, other
pipelines will have to come in from the
2 continental U.S.
somewhere in order to supply the forecast
3 needs for the state
alone.
4
THE GOVERNOR: So you recommend that we approve all
5 three?
6
MR. BARTLETT: I would recommend as the marketplace
7 continues to grow that
the need for all three projects is
8 definitely there and
documented by the Florida Reliability
9 Coordination
Council.
10
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Governor, to even follow
11 further than where
you've gone, you know, over the past 15
12 to 20 years, I've
seen some major, major changes in the
13 electrical systems of
this country where power plants have
14 to buy electricity
from other smaller plants. And you
15 have to make your
lines available for any cross
16 transactions that may
take place between states or cities
17 or whatever.
18
Is the gas industry going to do -- is it going in the
19 same direction, if
the lines coming in from Texas and
20 Louisiana go low and
there is a source over here, that you
21 can connect the lines
to move the gas from place to place?
22 Are we going to have
the same types of changes in how we
23 do business in the
gas business as we did in the
24 electrical
business?
25
MR. BRIGHTMAN: There is a fundamental difference
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1 between the way the
electric grid was previously run and
2 the way the pipeline
system is currently run and that is
3 that all of the major
pipelines coming into the state of
4 Florida, now the
Florida Gas Transmission Line,
5 Gulfstream, and these
projects, should they be approved,
6 are already common
carriers. They will carry anybody's
7 gas if it meets the
tariff to be carried.
8
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I'm talking about
9 connectability from
your line to the next guy's line and
10 moving that
gas. That's already -- in the gas business,
11 that's already
available?
12
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That is correct. We are already
13 going to interconnect
with the Florida Gas Transmission
14 Pipeline System.
15
THE GOVERNOR: One of the other -- it's a very good
16 question because
there is another technology I'd like to
17 get your comments
on. This could be brand X and I'm
18 guessing you probably
think this is a really bad idea.
19 But isn't there
technology emerging that allows for
20 liquified natural gas
to be offloaded in gas form from
21 ships themselves at
ports?
22
MR. BRIGHTMAN: At ports, certainly. That's what
23 we're planning to do
in the Bahamas.
24
THE GOVERNOR: But you're -- then you liquefy it.
25 And I'm talking about
the liquification, the gasification
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1 process taking place
on board the ship. That's not what
2 you're going to do in
the Bahamas.
3
MR. BRIGHTMAN: No, it's not. The LNG in the Bahamas
4 will be offloaded as a
liquid and then regasified on the
5 island. And then
product crossing the pipeline as a gas.
6 There is technology
available to regasify it onboard the
7 ship.
8
THE GOVERNOR: So why don't we have a pipeline?
9
MR. BARTLETT: The size of the ships in order to
10 regasify, the
quantity of gas in order to put in the
11 pipelines, those
ships I wouldn't be able to comment on
12 how large those ships
would have to get in order to be
13 able to achieve
that.
14
THE GOVERNOR: Very large.
15
CFO GALLAGHER: I have a question here. The feds
16 determine a
need. And this sort of reminds me of what
17 usually happens in
real estate, there is an established
18 need so every
developer, be it condominiums or whatever,
19 realizes that here's
a business opportunity. There is a
20 need for X number of
feet of gas in Florida and the
21 pipeline that's in
there, even though it's going to be
22 overbuilt, a little
bit bigger, isn't going to be enough.
23
So three guys are all going to fill that one need.
24 They're all going to
come in three different places. And
25 now we have three
times as much need as -- or I guess
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1 three times as much
fill as we have need. And somebody
2 gets halfway done and
goes broke. And there we are, we
3 got something halfway
torn up. How do we keep that from
4 happening?
5
MR. BRIGHTMAN: I guess my response to that is, The
6 need has been
identified at 2.4. And this project would
7 provide .8 and similar
by the other projects. And so even
8 if you put all three
of those projects together, you have
9 not exceeded the
current need.
10
MR. BARTLETT: That's only out to 2010. By 2020,
11 they expect that
additional gas requirements would
12 increase by another 2
BCF a day. So, I mean, these three
13 projects will not
satisfy the current forecast need in the
14 marketplace by --
15
THE GOVERNOR: Why didn't you propose a project that
16 was three times
bigger? Simplify things for us, have one
17 big mother of all
pipelines instead of three. What's
18 the --
19
CFO GALLAGHER: The big pipe.
20
THE GOVERNOR: If the market that you're saying is so
21 great, what are we
missing here?
22
MR. BARTLETT: It's a very valid question, Governor.
23 We sized our pipeline
in order to supply a certain
24 quantity of gas in
the Florida marketplace that we
25 expected to be
required in the next near future. Looking
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1 further out is a
decision that, you know, we didn't decide
2 to go any
further. Also the limited infrastructure of the
3 current FGT system
that their infrastructure coming in the
4 area that we're tying
into would also be limited --
5
THE GOVERNOR: Well, if it's limited, why do we want
6 to approve three
pipelines then if it can't get --
7
CFO GALLAGHER: All feeding into the same guide.
8
THE GOVERNOR: -- all feeding into a system that's
9 inadequate to take all
three?
10
MR. BARTLETT: The difference gets into the
11 compressionability of
the natural gas. The pipeline, as
12 it comes down Florida
heading south towards Miami,
13 continues to shrink
in size. There is a loss of pressure
14 in that
pipeline. By us tying into that physical
15 location, we give it
a much increased, from a pressure
16 perspective, allowing
you to flow gas further to the south
17 but also allowing you
to drop off gas at two large major
18 power plants of the
current utility system in the Port
19 Everglades
area. One being the Fort Lauderdale Power
20 Plant and the other
one the Port Everglades Power Plant
21 where the utility has
recently announced in their ten-year
22 plan that they're now
are currently looking at the
23 opportunity to do
something with the Port Everglades Power
24 Plant, not to say
that they will. It's currently an
25 oil-fired
facility. A lot of issues in Broward County
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1 regarding that.
It's these types of projects that will
2 allow other options to
look at repowering into the future
3 of these older
facilities.
4
In addition, as you clearly pointed out, is the, you
5 know, people are
looking at these projects as these two
6 initial projects have
moved forward and we are the -- you
7 know, further along as
far as the permitting perspective,
8 there have been
discussions with other utility companies.
9 And the reason for the
other utility companies being
10 interested in the
project is for -- obviously the need
11 that is required and
the fact that they want to get into
12 the market to supply
their own power requirements.
13
THE GOVERNOR: Colleen, you guys are finished, right?
14 You did your --
15
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yes.
16
THE GOVERNOR: What are we proposing here? What is
17 being proposed?
An easement for how long?
18
MS. CASTILLE: Twenty-five years.
19
THE GOVERNOR: But it doesn't require construction?
20
MS. CASTILLE: A construction permit?
21
THE GOVERNOR: No, I mean you get an easement but do
22 you have to build a
pipeline?
23
MS. CASTILLE: If you -- I don't understand the
24 question, sir.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Within that period of time does the
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1 pipeline have to be
built?
2
MS. CASTILLE: Five years. It has to be built within
3 five years.
4
THE GOVERNOR: If it doesn't start in five years,
5 they lose --
6
MR. BRIGHTMAN: The permit expires.
7
THE GOVERNOR: But the easement doesn't?
8
MR. BRIGHTMAN: As currently written, yes.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Why would we want to give an easement
10 longer -- if the
market is so great and if FERC says there
11 is a big need and all
the things you said, why would we
12 give an easement
longer than five years?
13
MR. BRIGHTMAN: An easy way to solve that problem,
14 Governor, is to
simply put a special condition in the
15 easement that as it
expires, well, if the permit expires
16 then it's not renewed
without the pipeline being
17 constructed.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: Yeah, because if you don't do that,
19 then they can sell
the permit to anybody else and get
20 another five
years.
21
MR. BRIGHTMAN: We're happy to accept that condition
22 because we believe
we're going to build the pipeline.
23
THE GOVERNOR: Okay. I'm just thinking. We have the
24 luxury or the
challenge of riches here, three different
25 proposals. I
don't believe all three are going to go
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1 forward because of the
backbone issues. I just don't --
2 it's also pretty
pricey these days and users may not be as
3 excited about natural
gas as we were several years ago.
4 It's the most
expensive alternative rather than the
5 cheapest today
although it's the cleanest. But to go
6 through this process
to grant something and then not have
7 it happen is kind of
troubling to me.
8
CFO GALLAGHER: I have a question.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Yes.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: Colleen, how much does it cost to
11 remove all those
tires?
12
MS. CASTILLE: I don't know how much it costs to
13 remove all the
tires.
14
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Broward County did what I would
15 describe as a bench
test. They actually went out and
16 removed some tires,
not a lot, but some, and calculated
17 how much it would
cost to do that. Based on their
18 calculations,
somewhere between 7 and $800,000 per unit --
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Per unit?
20
MS. CASTILLE: 14,000 tires.
21
MR. BRIGHTMAN: Which is 14,000 tires. We're going
22 to be removing eight
units and change.
23
CFO GALLAGHER: How many units is 2 million tires or
24 how many are out
there?
25
MR. BRIGHTMAN: I'm not that good at math.
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1
MS. CASTILLE: It's about 160.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Somebody just arose that may know the
3 answer.
4
MR. GREGG: I believe it's around 60, 60 units will
5 be required to be
removed. There are portions of the area
6 that are up to three
layers thick. So that would be three
7 units to clear one
acre of sea floor there. That
8 multilayer area is 17
acres times approximately three plus
9 the balance to the
31-acre footprint of the whole area.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: So could somebody do some math for
11 me? Here comes
a guy with a calculator.
12
MS. CASTILLE: Approximately 117,000 units -- 117,000
13 tires is eight
units. If there are 2 million tires, there
14 is a little less than
20 times eight units. And so that's
15 about 160, less than
that is about 130.
16
MR. GREGG: 133 approximately units per 2 million
17 tires.
18
CFO GALLAGHER: 133 units. How much does it cost a
19 unit?
20
MS. CASTILLE: 7 -- 800,000.
21
CFO GALLAGHER: 800,000. So you're talking
22 $100 million.
23
MR. BRIGHTMAN: We didn't put them there.
24
GENERAL CRIST: They're causing a problem?
25
MR. BRIGHTMAN: They are damaging the natural reef.
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1
CFO GALLAGHER: The reason I ask this, for whatever
2 it's worth, that we're
sitting here talking about, you
3 know, a few fees and a
little bit of money. In the
4 Bahamas, they're going
to get 10 million point 8 for, in
5 year one of the -- of
any one of the projects. So
6 multiply that times
three. And then in year five, that
7 figure is expected to
double. In year ten, it's expected
8 to go to 30
million. In year 15, the government should be
9 getting 40 million to
50 million from a company that's
10 operating the LNG,
which means the liquified natural gas
11 plant.
12
MR. BARTLETT: The purpose of the LNG facility and
13 why it's in the
Bahamas is that there's no place to put it
14 here in the state of
Florida. We would love to put it
15 here in the state of
Florida. It would save ourselves at
16 least $130 million in
cost of the pipeline. We did the
17 evaluations of where
we could put this LNG facility. This
18 facility is serving
the state of Florida.
19
CFO GALLAGHER: Nobody wants it.
20
MR. BARTLETT: Not to say nobody wants it. It's just
21 to say it would be
tough to do. We're only talking a
22 pipeline here.
You know, that's something that's in the
23 ground, nobody can
see it. But it is here to serve the
24 state of
Florida. What the Bahamas are receiving, they
25 are receiving jobs,
they are receiving, as you indicated,
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1 certain royalty
payments. It's all being addressed in the
2 heads of the agreement
and why it's been taking so long to
3 get it resolved.
But this project is here to serve the
4 state of Florida.
5
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you. We have some opponents of
6 the project,
Colleen?
7
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, sir, we do.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Would they like to speak?
9
MS. CASTILLE: Yes, they would. We have Dan -- I'm
10 sorry, Dan.
11
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: While we're doing that,
12 Governor, let me ask
a question. Since the lease itself,
13 the question on the
leasing, if we go through with one or
14 two or however many
that may come up for approval, should
15 we have the
assignability of the lease directly put back
16 to -- in case there
is any potential problem, that the
17 assignability of that
lease has to be approved by this
18 cabinet so that that
cannot be assigned by the individuals
19 with the --
20
THE GOVERNOR: Do we already have that?
21
MS. CASTILLE: Do we already have what, sir?
22
MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's the way the easement is
23 currently
written. It is not assignable without the
24 approval of the
trustees.
25
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Okay. I just wanted to make
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1 sure of that. I
wasn't sure.
2
MS. CASTILLE: We have two more presenters. We have
3 Dr. Ray McCallister in
support. And I'll ask him to go
4 second. And we
have Dan Clark from Cry of the Water.
5
MR. CLARK: Yes, hello. Thank you. The thing that
6 troubles me most with
these projects is not what's written
7 in the EIS.
8
THE GOVERNOR: How are you doing, by the way? Nice
9 seeing you.
10
MR. CLARK: How do you do, Governor. For the record,
11 my name is Dan Clark,
Cry of the Water. What troubles us
12 the most about these
projects is not what's written in the
13 EIS. As we've
seen with most of these projects that go on
14 in and around the
reefs, the biggest problem is the
15 unforeseen mechanical
damages. What looks good on paper
16 is not easily applied
when you're working with huge ships.
17
I'm briefly going to mention the other project here
18 just briefly, the
Tractebel project. They went out and
19 tried to do some test
drillings, some core samples for
20 that project.
Just in order to drill a dozen 3-inch holes
21 or 11 3-inch holes,
there was coral damage. The problem
22 is -- it was
unforeseen coral damage. The problem is, if
23 everything goes as
planned, the damages aren't quite so
24 bad. But things
never go as planned when you're working
25 with these huge ships
around these reefs. You have
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1 problems with
anchoring the vessels and all those sort of
2 things. Another
problem we have is the EIS that was done
3 for FERC, we don't
believe those EISs were complete like
4 with the other
project. Didn't mention anything about
5 transplanting corals
in the FERC documents.
6
THE GOVERNOR: That's in the other one?
7
MR. CLARK: That's in the other one.
8
THE GOVERNOR: Why don't you --
9
MR. CLARK: Okay. Similarly, for this project, they
10 are saying they can
build this bridge across the reef in
11 which they're going
to suspend this long piece of pipe
12 that they have to
pull through the corridor. And they say
13 they can do that
without impacting the hard bottoms of
14 that reef. I
don't know any physical way to anchor up
15 those bridges without
putting anchors on those hard
16 bottoms. And we
believe what will happen is the same
17 thing that's happened
with the other EIS, is once they
18 start the project
they're going to say, Oh, now we need an
19 anchorage area
here. And the new practice is becoming
20 just to snatch corals
up and move them. Okay? And these
21 are complete
ecosystems. You don't just move the corals
22 out --
23
THE GOVERNOR: That's the second applicant that's
24 proposing that.
These guys aren't proposing that, are
25 they?
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1
MR. CLARK: Not yet. But we believe once they get
2 their equipment on
site they're going to say, Oh, we
3 decided we can't
anchor this. We can't build this bridge,
4 we want to make it
safer, so therefore, we need more
5 designated anchorage
areas. And this has been the problem
6 with a lot of these
EISs.
7
And if this does go forward at all, what we'd ask you
8 guys to do is, there
is another step that can take place.
9 The Army Corps of
Engineers can ask for an EIS. That EIS
10 would have to be
prepare by these corporations, not by
11 FERC. And that
could be a more thorough process. If
12 you're thinking at
all about going ahead with these
13 projects, that's what
should happen next. If you guys are
14 thinking about doing
this, defer this thing, put it off,
15 ask the Corps to do a
more thorough evaluation of these
16 processes and make
sure that all the best available
17 information is
contained in those EISs.
18
I stood before you a year ago on a project, there was
19 a lot of good stuff
that wasn't put in that EIS. And I've
20 given some of that
stuff to your staff. I won't go there
21 now. But feel
free to look at it. Seriously, this is a
22 problem. They
will say anything to get permits. And then
23 once we get into the
project, suddenly everything changes.
24 It's a new game
plan. And that's why these EISs need to
25 be complete.
They need to have the best available
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1 information.
2
THE GOVERNOR: Do you like the mitigation?
3
MR. CLARK: No, I think it's a terrible idea. The
4 tires need to go.
5
THE GOVERNOR: No, I'm not talking about that. I'm
6 talking about in the
event of a -- let's assume for a
7 moment, whatever the
terminology is, as the temporary
8 system is created to
pull the pipe through and something
9 bad happens and they
need to readjust, they need to put a
10 foundation into the
coral, as you suggest, the mitigation
11 that we have as part
of that, you think --
12
MR. CLARK: Well, their mitigation, you're going to
13 say, Go out and pick
up tires.
14
THE GOVERNOR: More tires? We're already picking up
15 tires.
16
MR. CLARK: More tires. But that's what it will be
17 as more impacts come
about. That's what happened -- I'm
18 talking about the
other one very briefly -- but that's
19 what happened with
the other one. When the impacts
20 happened, they said,
Oh, we're going to make you pick up
21 more tires. And
this has suddenly become a way to deal
22 with an old bad
project that somebody stood before you
23 before -- not before
you, but before another body that was
24 here and got
passed.
25
THE GOVERNOR: Aren't they putting up money though?
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1
MR. CLARK: They're putting up a bond, yes, I
2 believe. There
should be a bond. We asked that there be
3 large bonds on both of
these projects. But --
4
THE GOVERNOR: That's the mitigation for --
5
MR. CLARK: But if that money is spent to go pick up
6 tires, it's not
necessarily adequate mitigation. The
7 tires are in a
different part of the county, by the way.
8 They're not even in
the same neighborhood here. They're
9 up the coast. So
going and doing the mitigation --
10
THE GOVERNOR: You're not big on the tire thing, are
11 you?
12
MR. CLARK: No, I'm not real big on the tires and
13 they are doing
damage, okay, especially the loose ones.
14 But the ones they
should be picking up are the ones that
15 are loose rolling
around the reef, not necessarily the big
16 pile of tires.
And just for the record, the biggest
17 lobster I ever caught
in my life, I caught in a bundle of
18 those tires.
19
THE GOVERNOR: Don't tell me you're defending the
20 tires now.
21
MR. CLARK: I'm not. I'm not by any means.
22
THE GOVERNOR: After all we went through together on
23 the beach
renourishment, you can't be telling me that.
24
MR. CLARK: I'm not. But the tires really need to be
25 looked at separately
and they really shouldn't be looked
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1 at as viable
mitigation for this project. I don't agree
2 for either one of
these projects that the tires should be.
3
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Let me ask you. So then you
4 feel like whoever the
entity was that did the original
5 tire deal ought to
clean up the tires?
6
MR. CLARK: Yes, sir.
7
COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Which would be the County?
8
MR. CLARK: Yes, sir. Well, the County was very
9 involved in it.
I believe Waste Management might also
10 have had a hand in it
back when. They were looking for a
11 way to get rid of
tires. I don't know the exact details
12 of that. It was
before I was involved in all this.
13
Let me just touch on a couple of things that they
14 mentioned. One
of the most important things I think, and
15 it's going to pertain
to both of these pipelines, there
16 was a guy that came
to the FERC -- one of the FERC
17 hearings down in
south Florida. He was a member of the
18 Pipefitters of
America. They're the guys that build these
19 pipelines on land and
maintain all that stuff. He said he
20 don't think the
infrastructure -- and you heard these
21 people tell you --
they don't think the infrastructure in
22 south Florida can
handle the volume of all three of these
23 pipes. They
said they thought it would be dangerous to
24 try to put that much
product through the infrastructure in
25 south Florida.
They said it would be a better idea if you
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1 want to bring natural
gas in to bring it in upstate
2 Florida where the
infrastructure could better handle that.
3 Because as they just
stood here and told you, as the pipes
4 go south, they get
smaller. You're going to try to put a
5 huge volume of
material into a small pipeline down there.
6 And, you know, now you
raise safety issues on land as
7 well. Not just
my coral issues but now you're raising
8 public safety issues
as well.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Whether it comes north to south, or
10 goes south to north,
it's the same capacity problem, it's
11 not going to
change.
12
MR. CLARK: Well, they did stand here and just tell
13 you as it goes south,
the pipe shrinks. I heard somebody
14 say it, I wrote it
down, one of the people that just
15 presented. So,
you know, that raises a question of why
16 they are bringing it
in down south as well. We'd like to
17 see a full EIS done
by the Army Corps of Engineers. If
18 you guys would defer
this vote and put that off possibly
19 until a better
evaluation of this whole process was done,
20 I think you could
make a better more informed decision
21 just like the people
that made the idea to put these tires
22 down should have made
a better and more informed decision
23 back then.
24
I'll wait and I can get the rest of my comments in on
25 the other
pipeline. Like I said, the biggest thing is, we
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1 think a better
evaluation of the true impacts needs to be
2 done. And there
is no mitigation. If that pipe falls off
3 that bridge out over
that reef, first of all, I think
4 that's a crazy idea, I
don't think it can be done. If it
5 falls off there, there
will be no mitigation for that
6 reef. I mean,
you're talking about wiping out century-old
7 corals and there's no
mitigation for that stuff, picking
8 up tires or anything
else. Thank you.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you for being here.
10
CFO GALLAGHER: By the way, just a question. What's
11 the pipeline made
of? Is it concrete, is it rubber? What
12 is it?
13
MR. BARTLETT: Majority of the pipeline is carbon
14 steel. A
section of the pipeline is stainless steel to --
15
THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear.
16
(Inaudible. Speaker not at podium.)
17
MR. BARTLETT: -- the testing facilities.
18
THE GOVERNOR: Where are you making it? Birds Pipe
19 and Steel from Panama
City?
20
MR. BARTLETT: I believe that's the case if the price
21 is right.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: So it's either steel or stainless
23 steel.
24
MR. BARTLETT: Yes, sir.
25
CFO GALLAGHER: And you pull this thing after you
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1 weld it and pull it
through?
2
THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear.
3
(Inaudible. Speaker not at podium.)
4
MS. CASTILLE: Come on up.
5
MR. BARTLETT: The pipeline itself is manufactured in
6 spool pieces ranging
from probably 20 feet long to 40 feet
7 long. It's
brought onto, say, the vessel in the near
8 shore area where the
entire -- for the onshore pipeline
9 pull at 6100 feet is
fabricated. The special welding
10 facilities on these
ships, that's all these ships do.
11 They're specially
designed. They are oceangoing vessels.
12 The process is
automated. The wells are welded, X-rayed.
13 Every weld is X-rayed
to ensure quality control, that
14 there is no potential
of a bad weld taking place.
15
The pipeline is laid out in the ocean floor. It's
16 then hydrostatically
tested to ensure that, again, a
17 second phase to make
sure the pipeline is complete. That
18 hydrostatic test is
1.5 times the maximum operating
19 pressure of the
pipeline. When the pipeline is then moved
20 into position and
pulled into the bore hole, the pipe is
21 again tested to
ensure that all the welds are still
22 intact, verifying the
integrity of the pipeline. This is
23 a continuous
operation throughout the whole process.
24
Once the offshore section is installed, that whole
25 section, being about
80 odd miles, is hydrostatically
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1 tested again to ensure
that there is no leaks in the
2 pipeline.
3
The onshore is fabricated the same way. Quality
4 control, all the
drills, all the welds are hydrostatically
5 tested, coded,
cathodic protection to ensure that there is
6 no problems with the
integrity of the pipeline.
7
CFO GALLAGHER: How big around is the pipe?
8
MR. BARTLETT: Twenty-four inches.
9
CFO GALLAGHER: And how big around is the hole it
10 goes in?
11
MR. BARTLETT: It would be about 36 inches in
12 diameter.
13
CFO GALLAGHER: So you only have -- you really have
14 six inches around it
that you're pulling this thing
15 through?
16
MR. BARTLETT: Give or take.
17
CFO GALLAGHER: It's going to be a 6-inch bigger hole
18 than the one you're
pulling through, thereabouts.
19
MR. BARTLETT: Thereabouts. And that hole gets
20 filled with a fluid
that will allow kind of a float
21 pull-through.
So it's not a heavy friction pull.
22
CFO GALLAGHER: The pipe is straight.
23
MR. BARTLETT: The pipe bends. There's a lot of
24 flexibility in the
pipe even though it doesn't -- from
25 first thought there
is no flexibility, but there is a
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1 great deal of
flexibility in the long section of pipe.
2 These pulls and these
pipelines and this technology has
3 been used in numerous
locations and we have some handouts
4 that we can pass out
to the members here today to justify
5 that. This is
not new technology that we're doing.
6
MR. BRIGHTMAN: It's the same technology that was
7 used in Gulfstream,
the same construction methods and
8 welding and testing
and everything.
9
THE GOVERNOR: Thank you. Other speakers, please?
10
MS. CASTILLE: Dr. McCallister.
11
THE GOVERNOR: Doc, nice to have you back in
12 Tallahassee, sir.
13
DR. McCALLISTER: Glad to see you guys again. If I
14 even tried to cover
all the points that I had down, I've
15 given you a
sheet. Maybe you got it, maybe you didn't.
16 But it listed eight
concerns that I had. And instead of
17 going over all of
those, I'm going to talk about what I
18 recommend that we do
to handle those concerns. So I'll
19 touch on it
briefly.
20
The first concern that I had here was the damage
21 that's already been
done. What should have been a
22 no-brainer, drilling
11 holes through the reef, has
23 already resulted in
some damage.
24
THE GOVERNOR: This application or the --
25
DR. McCALLISTER: Well, I'm going to kind of lump the
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1 two together because
the same sort of thing --
2
THE GOVERNOR: I'm not sure they want to be lumped
3 together.
4
(Laughter.)
5
DR. McCALLISTER: But AES is going to be doing a lot
6 of work out
there. And one of the people that actually
7 did one of the
projects here had a private conversation
8 with me. He and
I go back 50 years at least. And I said
9 to him, What's the
possibility of damage? He said, Any
10 time we do major --
we do a major marine construction job,
11 he said, The
opportunity for collateral damage is enormous
12 and he said, Major
damage is not unusual. Now we're
13 talking about both
Tractebel and AES, the possibility of
14 major damage.
We demonstrated in a no-brainer that damage
15 could occur, that is
the drilling 11 holes. The
16 technology for
drilling holes goes way back, 100 years.
17
We drilled holes and now we're using bentonite clay.
18 Bentonite clay is
fixatropic. When you stop shearing it,
19 it sets up as a
gel. I was going to bring some here and
20 show you, turn it
upside down. It would be a gel, and
21 then tap it, shear
it, and it would be all over the floor.
22 But I figured your
cleanup guy would be pretty upset at
23 me. Probably
you would too.
24
THE GOVERNOR: Is that to bore the hole?
25
DR. McCALLISTER: When you bore a hole, you need to
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1 lubricate the bit,
boring it. And you need to bring the
2 cuttings back.
Otherwise, you just pack the cuttings all
3 around it or you plug
up the hole. So you bring the
4 cuttings back along
the bore to the shale shake or shake
5 out the particles and
pump the bentonite clay, the mud,
6 the drilling mud, back
in. It's a mixture of bentonite
7 clay -- hopefully
that's all it is, is bentonite clay and
8 water in this
case. They use other additives elsewhere
9 but they're dangerous
to the reef if they get out.
10 Bentonite clay is
very dangerous to the reef if it gets
11 out.
12
THE GOVERNOR: They don't have -- this clay is left
13 as refuse?
14
DR. McCALLISTER: I'm sorry?
15
THE GOVERNOR: It's suctioned up, isn't it?
16
MR. BARTLETT: Yes.
17
DR. McCALLISTER: I missed the point though.
18
THE GOVERNOR: You use the clay to create the
19 lubrication to do the
boring?
20
DR. McCALLISTER: Right. It has another function to
21 it. If you have
sand you go through, as it pumps out into
22 the sand, it gels and
it holds the hole open. But now in
23 this case it may or
may not be necessary for maintaining a
24 hole.
25
THE GOVERNOR: But there is not tons and tons of clay
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1 that is -- remains as
the by-product of this process.
2 That is recouped,
isn't it?
3
DR. McCALLISTER: You'd kind of hope that all of it
4 would come back, that
you wouldn't need any of it. But if
5 it's down in the sand,
it's probably not a problem. It's
6 when it comes up
through the labyrinth of the reef and
7 hits the celobites,
the critters that live inside the
8 reef, or comes up to
the surface like your bubbles do when
9 you dive through a
cavern in the reef, that's when we're
10 really concerned
about it.
11
And when you can do it with salt water, I've talked
12 to drillers that
drilled for Sedco BP and they said, You
13 could drill a
150-foot hole with salt water in coral reef.
14 And we didn't, we
used bentonite, I don't know why. They
15 cased the hole but
the bit is below the casing. And we're
16 pumping bentonite out
into the labyrinth of the reef all
17 the way down as the
hole goes down. So we've got 11
18 masses of
bentonite. I don't know how much. They said
19 not much was
lost. Anyway, that was one concern that I
20 had.
21
AES proposes to lay their pipe on the bottom. Now
22 they tell me there
are too many other places that are much
23 more important for
terrorists. But if it wasn't against
24 the law, the minute
that pipe was down there, I'd get
25 another buddy, I'd
get a little explosives and a couple of
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153
1 lobster nets and I'd
go out there and I'd ball a hole in
2 that pipe just to show
that it could be done very easily.
3 It's not a big
planning thing like the World Trade Center,
4 that's what I'm trying
to say. Any two guys that have
5 access to some Semtex
or some C-4 and a timer could blow
6 that pipe. The
articulated mats, we laid those on the
7 Boca Raton ocean
outfall pipeline. They're like a
8 checkerboard.
There's a block here and a block here and a
9 block here and a block
here.
10
(Off-the-record discussion.)
11
DR. McCALLISTER: Well, in any case, I'd like to see
12 them trench the AES
pipeline and they say it would be too
13 much turbidity in the
water. But Tractebel believes they
14 can trench at least
six feet deep in the spoil pile. And
15 if they can do six
feet deep, I don't see why AES can't do
16 12 feet or 15 feet in
the gap between the two second
17 reefs, the second
reef inner and the second reef outer,
18 and bury the pipeline
so it isn't nearly as attractive a
19 target.
Okay. That's one of the two items that I had.
20
One of the most important and they say not a big
21 thing, why did they
put a shutoff valve in the Tampa Bay
22 pipeline?
Supposedly, it was to protect the Tampa Bay
23 bridge there.
But we don't have a bridge. We have a
24 pipeline 90 miles
long, 21 1/2 inches approximately inside
25 diameter, filled with
gas at the same pressure as a
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1 3,000-pound -- a
3,000-cubic-foot cylinder, scupic
2 cylinder (phonetic),
natural gas, highly flammable.
3
And one of the RAIs, the answer to it was, Don't have
4 to worry about it
because it's under water and there's no
5 oxygen down
there. Where does it come? It comes to the
6 surface, of
course. And another answer was that it's half
7 as heavy as air, it
goes straight up. Well, have you ever
8 had a gas leak in the
house and you could smell it out in
9 the next room?
Why didn't it hang in the upper part of
10 the room? We're
all exhaling CO2, it's twice as heavy as
11 air in here. If
you get down on the floor, you don't get
12 CO2 poisoning because
the air is viscous enough that the
13 gas goes up but it's
moved by the air molecules and it
14 spreads out.
And you'll get a ball -- if you had a
15 rupture in the pipe,
you'd have a ball half a mile across
16 if it didn't get
ignited. It takes a very hot flame, they
17 told me, Frank Wang,
who used to be the Calypso chief
18 engineer, said it
takes a very hot flame to ignite this
19 gas. What does
that mean to you? Oxyacetylene torch and
20 welder? But I
said to him at one of the meetings, Frank,
21 I said, any cigarette
will set it. Well, that's a very
22 hot flame. So
in other words, we've been jerked around a
23 little bit in the
--
24
THE GOVERNOR: A cigarette -- as gas dissipates
25 through 60 feet of
water and comes up and you're on a boat
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1 and you're trying to
catch a dolphin and you light a
2 cigarette, you're
going to blow yourself up to
3 smithereens?
4
DR. McCALLISTER: Any outboard motor. I said that to
5 Frank. He said,
Yeah, a spark from an outboard motor is a
6 very hot fire.
7
THE GOVERNOR: So there's no shutoff value at all?
8
DR. McCALLISTER: When I talked to AES they said the
9 problem is if it's
shut off, somebody hits that red switch
10 and shuts it off,
we'd shut down the whole area. Well, if
11 there is a breach in
the pipe, we want to shut down the
12 whole area. But
if there's no breach and it's an
13 accidental shutoff,
he hits the switch again, it can be
14 designed that way and
you turn the gas pipe on again.
15 There's enough
reserve capacity in the line to take care
16 of a ten-minute or a
half hour shutdown. So I still think
17 that we need a
shutoff value in the line.
18
THE GOVERNOR: They just said there is three shutoff
19 valves. What
are we missing here?
20
CFO GALLAGHER: If he had a mile-long, you know, he
21 said it was like a
SCUBA tank, it he had one of them a
22 mile long --
23
DR. McCALLISTER: Ninety miles.
24
CFO GALLAGHER: Ninety miles. Okay.
25
DR. McCALLISTER: The shutoff valves are on land on
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156
1 both ends.
2
CFO GALLAGHER: Bottom line is, you got 3,000 pounds
3 in there, it takes
forever to get that pressure out.
4
DR. McCALLISTER: Well, that means if you have a
5 rupture over here,
it's going to blow. And at one of the
6 meetings -- it's going
to blow until it's empty, until
7 it's ambient
pressure. If it's a hole the size of my
8 head, that might be
several days to a week. I haven't run
9 the figures on
that. I'm not sure I'm competent to run
10&nbs
Cabinet
Affairs
