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                               T H E   C A B I N E T 
                          S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                             VOTE ON PAROLE COMMISSION
                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                              BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
                           INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
                        The above agencies came to be heard before 
               THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush 
               presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, 
               The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, 
               September 12, 2000, commencing at approximately 
               9:16 a.m. 
                                    Reported by:
                                 LAURIE L. GILBERT
                          Registered Professional Reporter
                              Certified Court Reporter
                            Certified Realtime Reporter
                             Registered Merit Reporter
                              Notary Public in and for
                           the State of Florida at Large
                         ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                  100 SALEM COURT
                             TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301


                        Representing the Florida Cabinet: 
                        JEB BUSH
                        BOB CRAWFORD
                        Commissioner of Agriculture
                        BOB MILLIGAN
                        KATHERINE HARRIS
                        Secretary of State
                        BOB BUTTERWORTH
                        Attorney General
                        BILL NELSON
                        TOM GALLAGHER
                        Commissioner of Education
                                      *   *   *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
                                    I N D E X
               ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
                              Approved                       6
               (Presented by Tom Herndon,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                       8
                2             Approved                       8 
                3             Approved                       9
                4             Approved                       9
                5             Approved                      10
                6             Approved                      11
                7             Approved                      11
                8             Approved                      12
                9             Deferred                      --
               10             For Discussion                15
               11             For Information Only          19
               12             Approved                      21
               13             For Information Only          21
               14             Approved                      25
               (Presented by James T. Moore,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                      27
                2             Approved                      32
                3             Presentation                  36
               (Presented by James A. Zingale, Ph.D.,
                   Executive Director)
                1             Approved                      40
                2             Approved                      46



                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
                                     I N D E X
               ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
               (Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
                   Deputy Commissioner)
                1             Approved                      47
                2             Approved                      58
                3             Withdrawn                     58
                4             Approved                      59
                5             Deferred                      59
                6             Approved                      60
                7             Approved                      61
                8             Approved                      64
               TRUST FUND:
               (Presented by David B. Struhs,
                1             Approved                      65
                2             For Discussion                65
               Substitute 3   Deferred                      92
                4             Deferred                      92
                5             Reconsideration                120
                              Deferred                     122
                6             Approved                     122
                7             Approved                     124
               Substitute 8   Withdrawn                    124
                9             Deferred                     136
               Substitute 10  Deferred                     137
               11             Approved                     138
               12             Approved                     153
               13             Approved                     154
               14             Approved                     154
               15             Approved                     155, 157
               Substitute 16  Approved                     157
                Substitute 17 Approved                     199
               18             Approved                     199
                        CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            201 
                                      *   *   *

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                              PAROLE COMMISSION VOTE               5
                                September 12, 2000
         1                    P R O C E E D I N G S

         2              (The agenda items commenced at 9:30 a.m.)

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We now have a vote for the 

         4          Parole Commission.  And there are three 

         5          candidates:  Monica David, Maxine McConnell, 

         6          and Calvin Ross. 

         7              And I've not done this before, so I assume 

         8          we just --

         9              We've got the ballots.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Ballots.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Pass down the 

        12          ballots.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Pass them out.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Thank you.

        15              Is that it -- wait.

        16              Here we go. 

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You can't 

        18          have any more than seven.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If there's more 

        20          than seven, there's a problem.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's right.

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Four to four.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Although in Fort Lauderdale 

        24          and Miami-Dade --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I wasn't supposed 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                              PAROLE COMMISSION VOTE               6
                                September 12, 2000
         1          to fill out those two you passed down?

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Former Cabinet 

         3          members vote. 

         4              (Discussion off the record.)

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The vote was five for 

         6          Monica David, and two for Calvin Ross.  So 

         7          Monica David is now on the Parole Commission.

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Well, 

         9          Governor, just for the record, that will not 

        10          take effect before October 1st, will it, 

        11          because I think the person there now has to -- 

        12          has to be in it until at least October 1 in 

        13          order to get her number of years.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Right.  So it'll be the 

        15          next parole -- not this upcoming meeting, but 

        16          it'll be October 1st or 15th --

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Whatever the 

        18          date is, Governor.  Why don't we --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- we can 

        21          bring it up with her. 

        22              (The Parole Commission Vote was concluded.)

        23                              *   *   *



                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           7
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  The next Cabinet 

         2          meeting will be a -- at the home of our 

         3          illustrious Comptroller in Panama City, 

         4          Tuesday, September 26, at the City Commission 

         5          chambers there in City Hall.

         6              And -- and I've asked Colleen, I believe, 

         7          that the other Cabinet Aides have agreed with 

         8          this, that we're going to -- instead of having 

         9          an agenda that is as fluffy as possible, we're 

        10          going to actually have a regular Cabinet 

        11          meeting so people can see what we do. 

        12              So -- and so hopefully, there'll be some 

        13          interesting things that people in Bay County 

        14          will get to see that we do, other than pass 

        15          resolutions and take pictures.

        16              State Board of Administration.

        17              Good morning, Tom.

        18              MR. HERNDON:  Good morning, Governor, 

        19          members.

        20              Item Number 1 on the agenda is approval of 

        21          the minutes as amended from the meeting of 

        22          July 25th, 2000.

        23              TREASURER NELSON:  I move it.

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           8
                                September 12, 2000
         1              Without objection, it's approved.

         2              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 2 is approval of 

         3          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

         4          exceeding nine million six hundred fifteen 

         5          thousand dollar tax exempt, and two million 

         6          six hundred and thirty thousand dollar taxable, 

         7          Florida Housing Finance Corporation Housing 

         8          Revenue Bonds for Ashton Pointe Apartments in 

         9          Volusia County.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  And I'll move that item.

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll -- I'll second 

        12          it, Governor.

        13              I -- I continue to have concerns about the 

        14          kind of the rubber stamp operation that we have 

        15          on these Florida Housing Corporation bonds. 

        16              I know they do look at them, Tom.  But you 

        17          accept basically the input that they provide.  

        18          So by law, we're doing this.  But it really is 

        19          almost a rubber stamp.  And -- and I'm just 

        20          expressing my concern about it.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  Moved and seconded.

        22               Without objection, it's approved.

        23              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 3 is approval of 

        24          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        25          exceeding thirteen million three hundred and 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           9
                                September 12, 2000
         1          seventy thousand dollar tax exempt, and 

         2          four million five hundred thousand dollar 

         3          taxable, Florida Housing Finance Corporation 

         4          Housing Revenue Bond, Series 2000 for the 

         5          Cobblestone Apartments in Osceola County.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  And I'll move the 

         7          Item 3.

         8              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        10              Without objection, it's approved.

        11              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 4 is approval of 

        12          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        13          exceeding eight million eight hundred and 

        14          sixteen thousand five hundred dollar tax 

        15          exempt, and three million nine hundred and 

        16          one thousand dollar taxable, Florida Housing 

        17          Finance Corporation Housing Revenue Bond, for 

        18          the Grande Pointe Apartments in Orange County.

        19              TREASURER NELSON:  Motion on the item.

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        22              Without objection, it's approved.

        23              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 5 is approval of 

        24          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        25          exceeding eight million ninety-six thousand 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          10
                                September 12, 2000
         1          four hundred dollar tax exempt, and two million 

         2          nine hundred and sixty thousand dollar taxable 

         3          Florida Housing Finance Corporation Housing 

         4          Revenue Bonds for The Park at Palm Bay 

         5          Apartments in Brevard County.

         6              And, Governor, members, let me just note 

         7          for the record that the original resolution 

         8          that typically is certified prior to this step 

         9          in the process has not been received.  We've 

        10          got a minor glitch in just paperwork transfer.  

        11          It does not change the fact pattern upon which 

        12          the fiscal determination is based.

        13              But I did want to make you aware of that 

        14          fact.  We should have that original resolution 

        15          tomorrow.  Just a delay in -- in Fed Exing.  

        16          But for the record so that you know that.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second it.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        20              Without objection, it's approved.

        21              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 6 is approval of 

        22          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        23          exceeding ten million two hundred and 

        24          eighty-five thousand dollar tax exempt, and 

        25          three million three hundred and ninety-five 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          11
                                September 12, 2000
         1          thousand dollar taxable Florida Housing Finance 

         2          Corporation Housing Revenue Bonds for the 

         3          Raintree Apartments in Lake County.

         4              TREASURER NELSON:  And I'll move the item.

         5              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 7 is approval of 

         9          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        10          exceeding fourteen million dollar tax exempt, 

        11          and 1.2 million dollar taxable Florida Housing 

        12          Finance Corporation Housing Revenue Bonds, 

        13          Series 2000, for the Summer Palms Apartments in 

        14          Hillsborough County.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Move it.

        16              TREASURER NELSON:  Second.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        18              Without objection, it's approved.

        19              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 8 is approval of 

        20          a fiscal determination of an amount not 

        21          exceeding 75 million dollar, Florida Housing 

        22          Finance Corporation Affordable Housing 

        23          Guarantee Revenue Bonds, all taxable, for 

        24          Series 2000A to further capitalize the 

        25          Affordable Housing Guarantee Fund of the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          12
                                September 12, 2000
         1          Housing Corporation.

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I'll move it.

         3              TREASURER NELSON:  Second.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         5              Without objection, it's approved.

         6              Tom, before you go forward, just to comment 

         7          on the -- the General's comment, I had asked 

         8          Mark Kaplan to come today, the new 

         9          Executive Director, and he was out of town. 

        10              But I think it'd be appropriate to -- for 

        11          him to come at one of the next meetings to give 

        12          a report on -- on the -- the audit that was 

        13          done, and -- and answer your concerns also 

        14          perhaps about the -- the pricing of the bonds 

        15          and how they do it so that -- and there was a 

        16          lot of very in-depth criticism of the -- of the 

        17          Corporation.  And I'm confident that he has 

        18          grabbed ahold of the issues that were -- that 

        19          you -- your report showed. 

        20              And I think it'd be appropriate to have him 

        21          come and give us a briefing on that, if you 

        22          don't -- if y'all don't mind. 

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I think it's a 

        24          very good idea, Governor.  And I've had a 

        25          chance, as my staff has had a chance, to meet 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          13
                                September 12, 2000
         1          with the new Director, and I feel very 

         2          comfortable with the direction he's going.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

         4              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 9 is styled as 

         5          adoption of a proposed series of performance 

         6          criteria for the Public Employee Optional 

         7          Retirement Plan for the implementation phase of 

         8          this project.

         9              And I know that it may seem a little out of 

        10          sequence in the sense we had this item, plus 

        11          the Investment Policy Statement traveling 

        12          together.  It is not essential that this be 

        13          approved today. 

        14              It has been reviewed by our consultants, 

        15          Mercer and Associates, as well as visited by 

        16          the Investment Advisory Council a couple times. 

        17              But, you know, if the -- if the members 

        18          would prefer to take this all as a package, 

        19          then we can defer this till the 26th.  There's 

        20          certainly no harm done.  And we do intend to 

        21          bring the Investment Policy Statement to you in 

        22          Panama City --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Panama City? 

        24              MR. HERNDON:  -- on the 26th, so that 

        25          should generate some interest.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          14
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  To my point.

         2              MR. HERNDON:  Yes.  Exactly.

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I --

         4              TREASURER NELSON:  You will --

         5              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I would --

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  -- pack the place.

         7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The --

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I think the --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- occupancy rates in 

        11          Bay County may go up significantly.

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I think it'd be a 

        13          good idea to postpone this until the -- the 

        14          Advisory Committee, the PEORP Advisory 

        15          Committee has had a chance to look at it --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are they meeting on 

        17          Thursday, is that --

        18              MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.  They are 

        19          meeting on Thursday.

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And -- and either 

        21          bring it back in Panama City, or some 

        22          subsequent meeting, because this is not really 

        23          super time sensitive at this --

        24              MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.  It is not.

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So whenever it's an 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          15
                                September 12, 2000
         1          appropriate time, Tom.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

         3              MR. HERNDON:  That's fine.  We'll -- so 

         4          it's deferred?

         5              Item Number 10 is simply a discussion of 

         6          the Investment Policy Statement to bring the 

         7          members of the Board up to speed with respect 

         8          to the Advisory Council meetings that have 

         9          taken place. 

        10              As you've pointed out, Governor, the new 

        11          Advisory Council is scheduled to meet on 

        12          Thursday.  And thanks to General Milligan, I 

        13          believe we do now have five members again.  And 

        14          we're looking forward to briefing all of them 

        15          on Thursday.  We've got a full day session 

        16          scheduled. 

        17              We did put in the minutes, just so that you 

        18          know, I think a fairly faithful recap of the 

        19          testimony that was provided at the meeting in a 

        20          summary form so that you just have that 

        21          information available to you in terms of how 

        22          the various parties viewed the proposed draft. 

        23              It is not our intention at the meeting on 

        24          the 14th to alter our recommendations at this 

        25          time.  In other words, we're taking the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          16
                                September 12, 2000
         1          original set of recommendations to the 

         2          Advisory Council so they'll see the same 

         3          thought process that we've put before the 

         4          Investment Advisory Council. 

         5              And then based on their comments and input 

         6          and so forth, we'll bring a new recommendation 

         7          to you on the 26th.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you give us a hint? 

         9              MR. HERNDON:  That would be spoiling the 

        10          surprise, Governor.

        11              There's obviously been a great deal of 

        12          consternation about the -- the institutional 

        13          flavor of the investment line-up.  We recognize 

        14          that there are different points of view on that 

        15          subject. 

        16              We would like very much to hear what the 

        17          Advisory Council has to say on Thursday.  And 

        18          then with our consultants' comments and 

        19          so forth, we --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, can we have a little 

        21          bit of discussion about it today, just the --

        22              MR. HERNDON:  Absolutely.  By all means.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I mean, I -- I have a -- a 

        24          belief that -- I mean, this is a huge deal, as 

        25          you know, Tom, and you all -- your whole team 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          17
                                September 12, 2000
         1          is working very hard on it.  And there's a lot 

         2          of interest, a whole lot of interest. 

         3              And my hope is that what we end up with is 

         4          something that reflects the incredible 

         5          diversity of the membership of the Florida 

         6          Retirement System, and that I understand 

         7          enough -- not enough probably -- but I 

         8          understand that, if you have too many choices, 

         9          it may overwhelm people, and, therefore, not -- 

        10          the people will just opt out of -- or -- or 

        11          stay in the defined benefit plan.

        12              But I think, given the fact that we do have 

        13          a very diverse group of people with diverse 

        14          needs, and diverse aptitudes about -- and -- 

        15          aversions to making investments themselves, 

        16          that we -- we ought to make sure that we have 

        17          enough options for people without overwhelming 

        18          them. 

        19              And -- and I think if we do that, we'll 

        20          probably accommodate all of the folks that take 

        21          a real active interest in this as well.

        22              So that would be my only humble suggestion.

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I could, 

        24          Governor --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          18
                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- the -- there has 

         2          been a tendency through all these discussions 

         3          to really focus on the defined contribution 

         4          side of this argument. 

         5              And clearly we have, the three of us 

         6          collectively, responsibility -- fiduciary 

         7          responsibility by law, for both the 

         8          defined benefit, and the defined contribution. 

         9              In that regard, I -- I asked Tom to look at 

        10          the impact on the defined benefit side as we 

        11          transition --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Uh-hum.  

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- resources and -- 

        14          and -- and -- and really broaden the scope of 

        15          our activities.

        16              He has done an initial at least look at 

        17          that, which he sent me a response to it, copies 

        18          to your staff.  And I -- I would recommend that 

        19          you look at it, because it does define better 

        20          some of those concerns that we need to have for 

        21          the defined benefit side of the house. 

        22              And --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I assume that there's 

        24          some costs associated --

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  There are.  And it's 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          19
                                September 12, 2000
         1          interesting.  As you look at the approach that 

         2          is currently in the Investment Policy 

         3          Statement, versus the approach that is being 

         4          discussed as possible modifications to that 

         5          Statement and the costs -- additional costs 

         6          associated with it.

         7              So I -- I would just recommend that --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I will --

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- you --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- look at it.

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- look at -- 

        12          remember, we have a responsibility to 

        13          defined benefit, which, by the way, is better 

        14          than 80 percent of the FRS when this is all 

        15          over.  And -- and we can't lose sight of where 

        16          our responsibilities lie.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Tom.

        18              MR. HERNDON:  Okay, Governor.

        19              Item Number 11 is our monthly 

        20          implementation status report on the transition 

        21          of the DB plan to the DC plan.  It -- it's 

        22          pretty straightforward.  It -- we made good 

        23          progress, and by in large are on track. 

        24              All of the working groups have been 

        25          empaneled, they're all working, they're all 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          20
                                September 12, 2000
         1          meeting, they've got draft RFPs under 

         2          consideration as staff groups and so forth. 

         3              And so -- I mean, but basically the -- the 

         4          bottom line of the report is that things 

         5          look -- look good from a -- from a day-to-day 

         6          implementation point of view.  There's no 

         7          action that's required of you on that -- on 

         8          that point.

         9              Item Number 12 is a little bit of an 

        10          unusual item, and I don't recall having brought 

        11          anything like this before you in the past. 

        12              But as it turns out, in the case of one of 

        13          the members of our Investment Advisory Council, 

        14          Mr. Bill McBride, and one of the members of the 

        15          Advisory Council to the new DC program, we have 

        16          conflicts of interest that have been declared. 

        17              And under the statute, and under previous 

        18          Ethics Commission rulings, the parties may 

        19          continue to participate in discussions 

        20          involving the matters where they have a 

        21          conflict, if they get a waiver of the prior 

        22          statutory requirements by the appointing 

        23          official.  But it must be done in public. 

        24              (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)

        25              MR. HERNDON:  And so this is the forum for 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          21
                                September 12, 2000
         1          that. 

         2              Mr. McBride, who is Commissioner Nelson's 

         3          appointee, had indicated that he does not wish 

         4          a waiver.  He's simply going to recuse himself 

         5          from any discussion that involves matters where 

         6          his firm represents particular -- particular 

         7          clients. 

         8              So I don't believe there's any specific 

         9          action that the Board or Commissioner Nelson 

        10          would need to take.

        11              In the case of Ms. Cariseo, her conflict is 

        12          a -- an endorsement relationship with 

        13          Nationwide Insurance Company. 

        14              Governor, that is your appointee.  And 

        15          effectively, you would need to authorize or 

        16          grant a waiver of the applicable conflict of 

        17          interest statutes under Chapter 112 this 

        18          morning by simply acknowledging that -- that 

        19          that's your preference, and then we can move 

        20          forward.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That is my preference.

        22              MR. HERNDON:  Thank you.  All right.

        23              That takes care of Item Number 12. 

        24              Item number 13 is --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Excuse me.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          22
                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. HERNDON:  Yes.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom, there's also -- is 

         3          there any issue with the new -- I can't -- I 

         4          don't remember the acronym, what it stands for, 

         5          so I won't say it.

         6              MR. HERNDON:  Advisory council?

         7              (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No, no.  Not the Investment 

         9          Advisory Council.  The --

        10              MR. HERNDON:  Right.  The PEORPAC, the 

        11          Public Employee Optional Retirement Advisory 

        12          Council.  That's -- 

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That one.

        14              MR. HERNDON:  -- that's the worst one, 

        15          Governor. 

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        17              MR. HERNDON:  Wish we had --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tops it off as --

        19              MR. HERNDON:  Yeah.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  With -- with --

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I discussed -- I 

        22          discussed this with Alex Sink.  And it -- her 

        23          indication was, no, that there would be no 

        24          conflict. 

        25              But she was going to look at it.  And -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          23
                                September 12, 2000
         1          and I believe Tom will be talking to her about 

         2          it. 

         3              MR. HERNDON:  Yes.

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I will be 

         5          talking about it again with her on Thursday.

         6              MR. HERNDON:  Right.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Just to be -- you know, so 

         8          that will be cleared up prior to --

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Absolutely.

        10              MR. HERNDON:  Right. 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Fantastic. 

        12              MR. HERNDON:  Right.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

        14              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 13 is the monthly 

        15          fund activity analysis report for the month of 

        16          June 2000 submitted for information.

        17              Governor, that officially completes the 

        18          State Board of Administration agenda. 

        19              And with your leave, we would like to call 

        20          under Item Number 14, the Florida Water 

        21          Pollution Control Financing Corporation to 

        22          order, and have an agenda item in this case. 

        23              In -- in this instance, the Board of 

        24          Directors, per the statute, is 

        25          General Milligan; Commissioner Nelson; 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          24
                                September 12, 2000
         1          Ms. Arduin, who is your representative as a 

         2          member of the Board; and Mr. Struhs, who is the 

         3          fourth member of the Board. 

         4              And I know Mr. Struhs is here --

         5              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Donna's here.  Can you 

         7          come up?

         8              And in this particular instance, as you'll 

         9          recall at the last meeting of the -- the 

        10          Cabinet, we sought your authorization to 

        11          pre-release some RFPs to circulate the Articles 

        12          of Incorporation, and so on and so forth so 

        13          that we didn't lose that intervening month of 

        14          August.

        15              So this morning, what we would like to 

        16          encourage is a motion by one of the members of 

        17          the Board -- the two assembled here, or the two 

        18          up there -- to elect the officers, to adopt 

        19          Articles of Incorporation, to adopt the bylaws, 

        20          a corporate seal, and to ratify the RFPs that 

        21          have been disseminated, and direct the 

        22          Secretary to reflect these actions in the 

        23          minutes. 

        24              And that can be done as one motion if the 

        25          members of the Board would care to do so.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          25
                                September 12, 2000
         1              So if anybody --

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I -- I 

         3          certainly would move Items 2-A through F, 

         4          except I think it needs to be articulated as to 

         5          the chairperson and the other members of the 

         6          elected officers. 

         7              And we are proposing that Secretary 

         8          David Struhs be the Chairperson, with the 

         9          President being Executive Director Tom Herndon, 

        10          Treasurer being Coleman Stipanovich, and 

        11          Secretary being Tom Beenck.

        12              MR. HERNDON:  Correct.  And if --

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So I would move 

        14          those -- all -- all of those items if we can do 

        15          that, Tom.

        16              MR. HERNDON:  Yes, sir. 

        17              There's a second to the motion, then --

        18              MS. ARDUIN:  Second.

        19              MR. HERNDON:  There's a second from 

        20          Ms. Arduin.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  So all in favor?

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Aye.

        23              MS. ARDUIN:  Aye.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Thank you very much. 

        25              MR. HERNDON:  That completes the business 

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                           STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION          26
                                September 12, 2000
         1          of the Corporation.  If there's a motion to 

         2          adjourn the Pollution Control Financing 

         3          Corporation, we'll be done for --

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm not a member of the 

         5          Board, I guess, right?

         6              MR. HERNDON:  You're not a member of this 

         7          particular board, Governor.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Excellent.

         9              MR. HERNDON:  So if there's a motion to 

        10          adjourn -- 

        11              TREASURER NELSON:  Move to adjourn.

        12              MR. HERNDON:  Move to adjourn and --

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        14              MR. HERNDON:  And I know Mr. Struhs has 

        15          adjourned. 

        16              So -- so presumably that meets with his -- 

        17          his stead.

        18              And that completes both agendas, Governor.  

        19          And thank you for your patience.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Tom. 

        21              (The State Board of Administration Agenda 

        22          was concluded.)

        23                              *   *   *



                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      27
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Florida Department of Law 

         2          Enforcement.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         4          minutes.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         8              Without objection, it's approved.

         9              Item 2.

        10              MR. MOORE:  Governor, Item 2 is the request 

        11          to transmit the Department of Law Enforcement's 

        12          budget for 2001-2002.  And as I do that, 

        13          probably a couple of comments would be in 

        14          order. 

        15              What you have before you there today 

        16          represents the continuation of several 

        17          long-term projects that you've previously 

        18          endorsed as the head of the Department of Law 

        19          Enforcement, and a couple of select items that 

        20          are compliant with one of our guiding 

        21          principals, and that is the use of -- maximize 

        22          the use of technology as we deliver our public 

        23          safety services. 

        24              These items that are before you there 

        25          represent our best judgment of what we need to 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      28
                                September 12, 2000
         1          continue the success we've had in supporting 

         2          local law enforcement in the state of Florida 

         3          in making Florida a safer place.

         4              Let me emphasize as well, that those items 

         5          are based in large measure upon some very 

         6          strong input from local law enforcement who are 

         7          our key enterprise partners in this effort.

         8              Now, what you don't have before you, 

         9          Governor, and members of the Cabinet, is our 

        10          final product in complying with the legislative 

        11          budget instructions, which as you know, calls 

        12          for 1.6 -- or 1.5 percent identification of 

        13          positions, and positions that could possibly be 

        14          reduced, reprioritized, or redirected in your 

        15          organization to help support some of the issues 

        16          that we've laid out here. 

        17              Nor do you have the requirement in the 

        18          long-range planning process that's a matter of 

        19          law now, and the Governor's direction that we 

        20          identify the balance of 5 percent FTE and 

        21          dollars to make sure that we're prioritizing 

        22          everything we're spending in our budget, 

        23          including that in the -- in the base, toward 

        24          the priorities of -- of our effort here.

        25              That's not finished for a couple of 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      29
                                September 12, 2000
         1          reasons.  The -- not the least of which again 

         2          is this continuing dialogue we're having with 

         3          local law enforcement.  We're going to -- we 

         4          welcome this, as a matter of fact.  It's not a 

         5          new endeavor for us in the Department.  We've 

         6          done this for a number of years, and I think, 

         7          humbly, quite successfully.

         8              But I want to make sure we don't have 

         9          unintended consequences as we go in those 

        10          80 program areas and start prioritizing.  To 

        11          that end, we're having a lot of discussion, 

        12          continuing discussion with our -- with our 

        13          constituencies. 

        14              It's complicated a little bit more by the 

        15          fact that the Legislature this past session 

        16          picked to go first the Department of Law 

        17          Enforcement and the Department of Revenue in 

        18          the zero based budgeting exercise. 

        19              We have a product -- a product due to them, 

        20          and to the Governor's office, October 15th, 

        21          that lists all of our 80 major activity areas 

        22          that we have in our 248 million dollar budget.  

        23          And we prioritize and identify those 

        24          expenditures down to the dollar to get you and 

        25          the other policymakers in a position to -- to 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      30
                                September 12, 2000
         1          make some priority choices about what we -- 

         2          we're doing.

         3              So I thought it important to bring you 

         4          these new issues that -- that we have at least 

         5          to this point in compliance with -- with what 

         6          at least my understanding of the law is, and 

         7          your capacity as the head of the Department of 

         8          Law Enforcement. 

         9              And as I mentioned to you in my letter of 

        10          September 1, as we finalize these areas for 

        11          reductions, and I hope redirections and 

        12          reexpenditure in the Department of Law 

        13          Enforcement, we'll certainly share those with 

        14          you, we'll agenda them, or what-- agenda them, 

        15          or whatever your pleasure might be, to -- to 

        16          bring this process in for a landing.

        17              But at this point, I'm requesting 

        18          permission to transmit those new items with 

        19          those conditions to the Legislature.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there --

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- a second? 

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor, if I 

        25          may --

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                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      31
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.  Please.

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I -- I certainly 

         3          appreciate Tim explaining his situation, which 

         4          I think is very important. 

         5              Of course, we have several other agencies 

         6          that we are responsible for.  And I certainly 

         7          think it's important that we have these issues 

         8          brought out in the sunshine.  I think it's -- 

         9          it's good for what you're trying to do, and I 

        10          fully support that.

        11              And it -- and it needs to be illuminated 

        12          properly.  And so as we move forward, not just 

        13          with his department, but with the other 

        14          departments we are collectively responsible 

        15          for, I think those issues need to be agendaed, 

        16          and -- and properly brought before the Governor 

        17          and the Cabinet.

        18              So I second -- or certainly support the 

        19          motion.  But I would like to amend it to ensure 

        20          that we have these discussions in the sunshine, 

        21          which is one of the great things about this 

        22          process that we are involved in.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

        24              There's a motion and a second.

        25              I'm abstaining my vote on this item in 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      32
                                September 12, 2000
         1          order to make my own budget recommendation.

         2              Without objection, other than my 

         3          abstention, the item is approved.

         4              MR. MOORE:  Governor, Item 3 --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can we just go back to 

         6          the -- again -- I'm sorry.

         7              When -- when would be appropriate to have 

         8          presentations -- the --

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I -- I do 

        10          know -- I do know that the Department of 

        11          Revenue is prepared to discuss it -- and I see 

        12          Jim here.  I didn't know he was going to be 

        13          here this morning. 

        14              But I do know he's prepared to talk about 

        15          it in Panama City.  I don't know about 

        16          Veterans' Affairs, I don't know about 

        17          Highway Safety.  But --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We can --

        19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I think sooner, 

        20          rather than later, because these are policy 

        21          issues that -- of course, core functions that 

        22          may be -- need to be addressed, and I think 

        23          need to be brought out in the sunshine.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, we'll -- we'll do 

        25          them progressively, starting -- if -- if 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      33
                                September 12, 2000
         1          Director Zingale's ready to go in Panama City, 

         2          we'll -- we can start there, and -- and try to 

         3          complete them over the -- the next two or three 

         4          meetings.

         5              Is that enough time?

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.  That -- that 

         7          would do fine, as long as we get them out there 

         8          where we know what -- what's going on.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Are you including 

        11          Education in this? 

        12              I mean, do you want us to do it, too?

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I -- I think 

        14          it's probably appropriate.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I mean, I don't 

        16          have any problem with that.  I just need -- 

        17          just need to know.

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, the -- since 

        19          we are not meeting right now as the Board of 

        20          Education, I won't comment.  But it's 

        21          probably -- the Board of Education, would 

        22          probably be interested in it also.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, when we get 

        24          to that one, I guess you can bring it up.

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      34
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You can do it in advance, 

         2          if you like.

         3              No.  We'll -- you know, it's the -- the 

         4          legislative budget requests will be out this 

         5          week.  And your zero-based budgeting exercise 

         6          will be completed by October 15th.  So it's 

         7          more than appropriate to discuss this and 

         8          receive input.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's -- it'll be public 

        11          already by next -- by the next Cabinet meeting.

        12              MR. MOORE:  With the understanding, 

        13          Governor, as you -- as you know, that some of 

        14          those things might change as we -- as we finish 

        15          that process with --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

        17              MR. MOORE:  -- your budget office, and with 

        18          the legislative staff on that ZBB exercise.

        19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Right.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But, again, 

        22          you know, we have a responsibility, 

        23          for example, the Florida Department of Law 

        24          Enforcement, that there are a lot of 

        25          core programs that we have looked at -- I have 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      35
                                September 12, 2000
         1          been looking at for over five years now. 

         2              And -- and -- and frankly have been pleased 

         3          with the way that all of them have done.  But 

         4          FDLE has got a lean program.  And -- and 

         5          something may have to give the -- in the 

         6          core program.  Whether it's education, which he 

         7          has a fabulous education program, or whatever 

         8          it may be. 

         9              I -- I think we ought to be able to know 

        10          what it is, and -- and provide our guidance as 

        11          appropriate.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely. 

        13              This is a critically important discussion 

        14          because my guess is that this year -- this 

        15          year's budget won't have the luxury of the 

        16          abundance of revenue that came in from general 

        17          revenue sources, tobacco revenue -- it means a 

        18          little slimmer year. 

        19              And so this prioritization process will -- 

        20          it's not an exercise.  It's actually something 

        21          that --

        22              MR. MOORE:  Exactly.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- in order to meet the 

        24          needs of the State, we're going to have to do.  

        25          So the more -- the more discussion about it, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      36
                                September 12, 2000
         1          the more light shining on it, the better it is.

         2              MR. MOORE:  Thank you, Governor.

         3              Item 3 deals with the presentation of the 

         4          Department's third reaccreditation status by 

         5          Mr. Sylvester Daughtry, who's the 

         6          Executive Director of the Commission on the 

         7          Accreditation of Law Enforcement Agencies. 

         8              You'll recall that several years ago, now 

         9          about ten years ago, FDLE, with your strong 

        10          support and leadership throughout the years, 

        11          was the first statewide investigative agency in 

        12          the country to be accredited.  And we've 

        13          maintained that commitment over time, again 

        14          with your leadership and support. 

        15              And I'm very proud of that, and the men and 

        16          women in the organization who make that more 

        17          than just something on a plaque on a wall.

        18              I'd like to ask Sylvester Daughtry to come 

        19          forward -- they already have -- along with our 

        20          Inspector General, Mike McHargue; and our 

        21          Senior Management Analyst, Adrienne Lucas, who 

        22          is -- was instrumental in this whole process.

        23              Mr. Daughtry.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, Mr. Daughtry.

        25              MR. DAUGHTRY:  Thank you, Governor. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      37
                                September 12, 2000
         1              Governor Bush, members of the Cabinet, 

         2          Commissioner Moore, members of the Florida 

         3          Department of Law Enforcement, ladies and 

         4          gentlemen, it is an honor and a privilege for 

         5          me as Executive Director of the Commission on 

         6          Accreditation for Law Enforcement agencies to 

         7          be here today to present the certificate of 

         8          reaccreditation to the Florida Department of 

         9          Law Enforcement. 

        10              I bring you greetings from our Commission, 

        11          who is chaired by Chief Bill Miller of Elgin, 

        12          Illinois.  We have a 21-member governing body.  

        13          And I am happy to announce, and to remind you, 

        14          that your Commissioner, Commissioner Tim Moore, 

        15          is one of those 21 members.

        16              The Florida Department of Law Enforcement 

        17          was initially accredited in 1990.  And this 

        18          represents, as he indicated, the second time 

        19          they've been reaccredited since their initial 

        20          accreditation.

        21              In April of this year, we sent a team of 

        22          professionals into the Department to do what we 

        23          call an on-site review.  These are 

        24          law enforcement professionals from outside the 

        25          state of Florida.

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                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      38
                                September 12, 2000
         1              And their collective opinion is that the 

         2          Department is in excellent shape, managed and 

         3          operated quite well.  They were 308 of our 

         4          standards that applied to the Florida 

         5          Department of Law Enforcement. 

         6              And of that 308, 55 were what we call other 

         7          than mandatory standards, meaning that the 

         8          Department could elect to not comply with 

         9          20 percent of those other than mandatory 

        10          standards. 

        11              And I'm happy to report to you that your 

        12          Department complied with each and every 

        13          standard that was applicable to them, not 

        14          exercising their 20 percent option.

        15              The assessors found that you have several 

        16          programs here that are worthy of mentioning, 

        17          and should be held out for examples for other 

        18          law enforcement agencies.

        19              Your Criminal Justice Net that shares 

        20          information with other law enforcement and 

        21          criminal justice practitioners, DNA technology 

        22          is certainly -- is one of the leading programs, 

        23          and certainly ranked among the best in the 

        24          country.

        25              Leadership training center. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                       FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT      39
                                September 12, 2000
         1              Their final quote was:  The performance in 

         2          all categories of concern are excellent. 

         3              And if I might end up by saying, Governor, 

         4          that the State of Florida is a leader in this 

         5          professionalism of law enforcement agencies.  

         6          Over 50 agencies in your state are accredited 

         7          by the Commission on Accreditation for 

         8          Law Enforcement agencies, and we're happy that 

         9          they are leading the way for other states. 

        10              And we now have an initiative that we hope 

        11          to begin very soon, working with the Florida 

        12          Commission on Accreditation in an alliance. 

        13              So, Mr. Governor, we're happy to be here to 

        14          present this certificate.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Daughtry.

        16              You going to bring it up?  Should we do 

        17          a --

        18              MR. MOORE:  We'll bring it up.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Let's take --

        20              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  All right.

        21              (Discussion off the record.)

        22              (The Florida Department of Law Enforcement 

        23          Agenda was concluded.)

        24                              *   *   *


                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              40
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Department of Revenue.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              Item 2.

         8              DR. ZINGALE:  Governor, with your 

         9          permission, I'd like to give a quick status 

        10          report on the unemployment comp transfer.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Please.

        12              DR. ZINGALE:  The program, unemployment 

        13          comp, as you all know, October 1 will be 

        14          transferred to the Florida Department of 

        15          Revenue.  That's a couple of months ahead of 

        16          schedule. 

        17              They had 444 authorized FTE.  We have 

        18          advertised 360, and as of late last night, we 

        19          have offered 240 jobs so far, with 19 more days 

        20          to go in the month to those employees.  So 

        21          240 are in the GTA program. 

        22              Today we will be initiating with the 

        23          Department of Labor a procedure to identify who 

        24          specifically is remaining out of those 135.  

        25          Some of those will have retired, some of those 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              41
                                September 12, 2000
         1          will have gotten jobs in other agencies.  We 

         2          think a few of them actually have gotten jobs 

         3          in our Child Support Enforcement Program. 

         4              So we will be working intensively this week 

         5          to try to find out specifically who hasn't 

         6          matched up and been offered a job in Revenue; 

         7          and then those people, we will work an 

         8          individual at a time to try to figure out 

         9          whether we can fit them in, or whether we can 

        10          work with another State agency.

        11              We have hopes that, in the remaining 

        12          19 more days this month before that transfer 

        13          takes place, we will be successful in placing 

        14          all of those employees in some employment.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Jim, I really appreciate 

        16          your hard work on this.  And this is a good 

        17          example of how -- how, if we work together as a 

        18          team, the -- the changes brought about by 

        19          reorganizations can be minimal, or not at all.  

        20          I mean, we'll -- we'll -- this is a good test 

        21          case on -- on how this works.

        22              But as I understand it, can you -- can you 

        23          tell me how many people were working in the 

        24          function --

        25              DR. ZINGALE:  Well, 444 were authorized.  

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              42
                                September 12, 2000
         1          Now, they haven't been -- fully filled those 

         2          positions in quite some time.  We --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And how many will you --

         4              DR. ZINGALE:  Three hundred and six.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You'll have 306 authorized? 

         6              DR. ZINGALE:  And 306 we will be filling.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So -- and -- and you're 

         8          confident that you'll be able to do this even 

         9          more efficiently -- 

        10              DR. ZINGALE:  And we're blending a bureau 

        11          into business process structure.  We've got a 

        12          lot more automation than they do.  We already 

        13          have taxes that are covering a similar type of 

        14          taxpayers.

        15              So --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So that's about a 20 -- 

        17          it's more than a 25 percent cut in the numbers 

        18          of people working on a particular service for 

        19          government, and you've placed them at least -- 

        20          I'd like for you to do it to your -- to my 

        21          fellow Cabinet members, that you will do it 

        22          more effectively and efficiently than it was 

        23          being done before, with 25 percent fewer 

        24          people.

        25              DR. ZINGALE:  Well, and that's not 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              43
                                September 12, 2000
         1          artificial.  We went business process at the 

         2          time.  This is an example.  You know, they had 

         3          stand-alone auditors doing, you know, the 

         4          audit.  We've already had corporate auditors in 

         5          the same business, we would expand the audit by 

         6          about an hour-and-a-half, we could expand 

         7          coverage with substantially fewer people to 

         8          perform just that function.

         9              Our front-end automation, as you all know, 

        10          is some of the best in the country.  We will 

        11          bring them in under that new environment.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And then if -- if you could 

        13          come back in maybe a month and give us an 

        14          update on the -- where -- what has happened to 

        15          the -- the people in the Department of Labor 

        16          that were working in this function, how many 

        17          ended up actually working at the Department of 

        18          Revenue, how many went to other agencies, how 

        19          many retired, it would be I think a good -- I'd 

        20          like to see it.  I know the Cabinet members 

        21          would like to see how this works. 

        22              It -- it may lessen some fears that can be 

        23          stoked quite easily by looking at this in a -- 

        24          in a static kind of way.

        25              So I -- I appreciate what you're doing.  

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          And -- and you've responded -- I don't know if 

         2          my fellow Cabinet members know that, at first, 

         3          this was to be done by January 15th I believe, 

         4          or something like that.  And I asked the 

         5          why-not question, and Zingale delivered. 

         6              So you -- you sped up the process, and 

         7          you've done a great job.

         8              MR. ZINGALE:  Well, we've got a group of 

         9          people -- not that I want to toot their horn 

        10          too much -- but --

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, go ahead.

        12              DR. ZINGALE:  -- 306 FTE we advertised, we 

        13          had 7,600 applications for those 306 jobs.  So 

        14          the staff had to work seven days a week for 

        15          two days to review all the packages, schedule 

        16          the interviews, and get that done to be able to 

        17          hire that 240.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Seven days a week 

        19          in two days; is that what you said?

        20              DR. ZINGALE:  Seven days a week full days.  

        21          They were --

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Full days.

        23              DR. ZINGALE:  -- working till late nights 

        24          to get there.  It was quite an effort on their 

        25          part.  But -- a ways to go yet. 

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                               DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              45
                                September 12, 2000
         1              And the 90 days to fully get this program 

         2          up and running and totally transferred over 

         3          will not be easy.  It'll be a lot of another 

         4          long nights, and difficult process to go 

         5          through.

         6              We will be bringing our LBR and our plan to 

         7          the next Cabinet meeting in Panama City.  We'll 

         8          give you your first quarter status report on 

         9          the ad valorem implementation that we promised 

        10          in October, which will be that date.

        11              We have two Cabinet -- two requests for 

        12          approval of amendments for two child support 

        13          enforcement rules.  These are small. 

        14              One deals with the procedures dealing with 

        15          consumer reporting agencies and our sharing of 

        16          information. 

        17              The other deals with the payment recovery 

        18          process we have when a disbursement issues in 

        19          error to a child support enforcement family.

        20              Request approval.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion? 

        22              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Second? 

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              Without objection, it's approved.

         2              DR. ZINGALE:  Thank you.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Jim. 

         4              (The Department of Revenue Agenda was 

         5          concluded.)

         6                              *   *   *




















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             47
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of Education.

         2              MR. PIERSON:  Item 1 is minutes of the 

         3          meetings of June 26th and July 11th.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on minutes.

         5              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              Item 2.

         9              MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is a district charter 

        10          proposal for Hillsborough County.  Betty Coxe 

        11          will introduce the Hillsborough County --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Beautiful Betty.

        13              MS. COXE:  Good morning, sir.

        14              Governor, members of the State Board, it's 

        15          a pleasure to be with you today.  It's an 

        16          exciting day for us in education.  We're here 

        17          today to present to you --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Every day's --

        19              MS. COXE:  -- for your --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- exciting in education, 

        21          Betty.

        22              MS. COXE:  That's right. 

        23              We're here today to present to you for your 

        24          consideration our second statewide charter 

        25          school district proposal.  And we'd like to 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          take just a second to comment about it a little 

         2          bit. 

         3              It has been in development for several 

         4          months now.  And our compliments go to the 

         5          Hillsborough County School District for the 

         6          completion of a wonderful product.

         7              This particular item seeks your approval of 

         8          a charter school district proposal from the 

         9          Hillsborough County public schools, and to 

        10          enter into a performance contract with them. 

        11              This plan seeks to increase student 

        12          achievement by calling for 85 percent of the 

        13          schools in Hillsborough County to earn a grade 

        14          of A or B, and for no school in 

        15          Hillsborough County to earn a grade less than C 

        16          within three years.

        17              Performance goals pursued progressively 

        18          higher results on State and national 

        19          assessments, and deal with all student 

        20          populations.  They also address teacher 

        21          quality, student conduct, and school 

        22          flexibility.

        23              In fact, one of the exciting components of 

        24          the Hillsborough plan is a promise to have a 

        25          minimum of six conversion charter schools 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             49
                                September 12, 2000
         1          within three years.  So we're really looking 

         2          heavily in this particular pilot into the 

         3          flexibility factor.

         4              To assist the District in meeting these 

         5          goals, perceived regulatory barriers have been 

         6          specifically identified, and the District will 

         7          receive exemption, with your permission, from 

         8          these laws and rules.

         9              The District will annually report to you 

        10          its progress.

        11              And without further adieu, I'd like to 

        12          bring up now Superintendent of Schools for 

        13          Hillsborough County, Dr. Earl Lennard, who's 

        14          going to tell you a little bit more about the 

        15          plan and its specifics. 

        16              And congratulations to Hillsborough County 

        17          for a great job.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  This is the same 

        19          Dr. Lennard who didn't get a 5 percent pay cut 

        20          this year.

        21              MS. COXE:  That's --

        22              DR. LENNARD:  Right.

        23              MS. COXE:  -- right.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But he's always 

        25          willing in case somebody slips. 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             50
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  They --

         2              DR. LENNARD:  My family sure is happy.

         3              If I could, Governor, members of the 

         4          Cabinet, I would like to introduce our 

         5          School Board Chairman, 

         6          Mrs. Carolyn Bricklemyer.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

         8              MS. BRICKLEMYER:  We're a team.

         9              Good morning.

        10              My name is Carolyn Bricklemyer, and I'm 

        11          presently the Chairman of the 

        12          Hillsborough County School Board, and it's a 

        13          privilege to be here with you today.

        14              I bring greetings from our School Board, 

        15          and we want to thank you for this opportunity.  

        16          We're stepping out into new ground, and we're 

        17          aware of that.  We're doing this willingly, a 

        18          little bit nervous about it, as I'm sure you 

        19          are, and excited as well. 

        20              You're not nervous, because you're not 

        21          having to do it.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Exactly.

        23              MS. BRICKLEMYER:  I don't know if you 

        24          recall, but a couple of years ago, you were in 

        25          Hillsborough County at an elementary school, 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             51
                                September 12, 2000
         1          and a couple of School Board members had a 

         2          conversation with you about what if a charter 

         3          school district.  And here we are today.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Exactly.

         5              MS. BRICKLEMYER:  Our Board has been 

         6          working very hard to make it possible for all 

         7          students to achieve their academic success.  We 

         8          are also working to improve our budgeting 

         9          process, and are taking steps to link our 

        10          expenditures to our programs in an effort to 

        11          determine the most cost-effective approaches to 

        12          meeting our goals.

        13              We have begun implementation of our most 

        14          recent three-year strategic plan.  The goals 

        15          and strategies in that plan are linked to the 

        16          proposal for the charter district and the terms 

        17          of the proposed contract. 

        18              We think that the benefits of becoming a 

        19          charter district will greatly assist our 

        20          District as we implement our strategic plan.

        21              We want to thank you again for your 

        22          consideration of our proposal and your 

        23          assistance and support of the 

        24          Hillsborough County School District. 

        25              And with that, I will give you Dr. Lennard, 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          who will give you more details of our plan.

         2              Thank you.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         4              DR. LENNARD:  Please, Governor, members of 

         5          the Cabinet, on behalf of the School Board, and 

         6          you heard Mrs. Bricklemyer, our Chair, I want 

         7          to thank you for this opportunity, because, 

         8          indeed, Hillsborough County thinks it is an 

         9          exciting opportunity. 

        10              And we've been working continuously with 

        11          your staff, and our staff in 

        12          Hillsborough County, to answer any of the 

        13          questions that may have come up, because as 

        14          you know, we've been in this process for a 

        15          length of time now.  And -- and that now has 

        16          come to conclusion. 

        17              And also would like to thank Volusia County 

        18          for their cooperative spirit and the sharing of 

        19          information in development of the Volusia and 

        20          the Hillsborough plan.

        21              We focus on priorities to improve academic 

        22          achievement, enhance, and ensure our District's 

        23          future workforce, and the academic achievement 

        24          of our students specifically.  We believe that 

        25          this District charter plan will allow us to 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             53
                                September 12, 2000
         1          continue doing that.  And our students continue 

         2          to consistently score above the national and 

         3          the State average.  And we believe that this 

         4          will help us to focus even greater results in 

         5          those areas.

         6              Our School Board took major steps toward 

         7          becoming more performance focused when, in 

         8          1996-97, they adopted specific grade level, 

         9          student performance standards, and grade level 

        10          benchmarks. 

        11              At that time, we increased graduation 

        12          requirements above those mandated by the State, 

        13          and eliminated social promotion by requiring 

        14          the attainment of the benchmarks as a condition 

        15          of promotion.

        16              The implementation of the A+ plan -- 

        17          A+ plan after the 1999 legislation was a 

        18          relatively easy transition for Hillsborough 

        19          since we had already started along those lines 

        20          of accountability and performance driven 

        21          measurements.

        22              Recent impressive improvements in the 

        23          grades achieved by our schools and the absence 

        24          of any F graded schools, despite the 

        25          demographic prediction that some of our schools 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             54
                                September 12, 2000
         1          should have been F schools -- and we are very 

         2          thankful for that -- this demonstrates the 

         3          commitment of the District to the high academic 

         4          standards and focus on student achievement that 

         5          are features of the total commitment of the -- 

         6          of our State Department of Education, as well 

         7          as this Cabinet.

         8              We first discussed, as Mrs. Bricklemyer 

         9          said, this concept with the Governor at one of 

        10          our local elementary schools, and the concept 

        11          eventually found its way into law.

        12              And we see the charter school district 

        13          aiding us and giving us more tools, one more 

        14          tool for the District improvement.  But we 

        15          recognize, it alone will not carry us to the 

        16          level we seek as the premier school district in 

        17          the nation.

        18              It is, however, a concept that promises to 

        19          assist us along that --

        20              (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 

        21          room.)

        22              DR. LENNARD:  -- along that way. 

        23              And we believe that -- that becoming a 

        24          charter school district offers the following 

        25          features and benefits to our students, and to 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             55
                                September 12, 2000
         1          the taxpayers of the state of Florida, and the 

         2          Hillsborough County School District.

         3              Our proposed charter school contract 

         4          increases our flexibility to design and 

         5          implement instructional programs that support 

         6          high student achievement, proposed waivers in 

         7          elements of the management plan increase our 

         8          flexibility to define high school credits, 

         9          tailor middle school student programs of study, 

        10          adopt and acquire instructional materials, and 

        11          design and implement student program planning 

        12          and placement tools in ways that will increase 

        13          individual attention, and improve student 

        14          achievement.

        15              Finally, we know that this approach takes 

        16          both the School Board of Hillsborough County, 

        17          and the State Board of Education into 

        18          unexplored territory.  Neither of us can 

        19          guarantee that this journey will produce 

        20          greater improvements than we would have 

        21          achieved had we retained the more traditional 

        22          approach. 

        23              But these provisions provide appropriate 

        24          checks and balances and safety nets to protect 

        25          the interests, and assure us the cooperation of 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             56
                                September 12, 2000
         1          the State Board of Education, and the 

         2          School District in making this happen. 

         3              So once again, we have an opportunity today 

         4          to forge that new partnership, and we in 

         5          Hillsborough County thank you for considering 

         6          us as a charter district.

         7              We are now open to any questions that 

         8          members of the Cabinet may have.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you describe some of 

        10          the rules that have been waived, or you don't 

        11          have to comply with from the State, whatever 

        12          that term is? 

        13              DR. LENNARD:  Some of the things that we 

        14          have asked to be released from include various 

        15          State statutes, including some of the ways in 

        16          which we certify teachers and some of the ways 

        17          in which we deal with the management of our 

        18          HRMD plan.  We're asking that we be allowed 

        19          more flexibility in that area, and a waiver for 

        20          that.

        21              We're also asking for additional waivers in 

        22          the securing of instructional materials, the 

        23          manner in which we do that, and the flexibility 

        24          for those instructional materials, as well as 

        25          also in our middle school program, to tailor 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             57
                                September 12, 2000
         1          the middle school course of study so that it 

         2          more directly focuses on what we believe in 

         3          Hillsborough County is -- is needed by our 

         4          middle school youngsters.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And let -- let me 

         6          mention that I want to especially thank the 

         7          Secretary of State for participating and going 

         8          over this prior to attending here, and 

         9          contributing to the betterment of this entire 

        10          plan.

        11              And you know everybody got this, and looked 

        12          at it, but they -- she and her office really 

        13          gave us some good input.

        14              So I want to thank them for that.

        15              DR. LENNARD:  We would -- I would like to 

        16          also thank the -- each of your staff members.  

        17          You know, our folks met with them last week -- 

        18          or have been meeting with them continuously for 

        19          a number of months now.  And they've been very 

        20          helpful.  Some very tough questions.  But 

        21          they've been very helpful --

        22              (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 

        23          room.)

        24              DR. LENNARD:  -- and we appreciate that 

        25          very much.

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             58
                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions?

         2              Is there a motion for approval? 

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to approve.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, 

         8          thank you -- Chairwoman, Chairperson, thank you 

         9          for coming.  Good luck.  Let us know how we can 

        10          help.

        11              DR. LENNARD:  Thank you.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'd like to 

        13          withdraw Number 3, Governor.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion to 

        15          withdraw? 

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I --

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        18              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        20              Without objection, it's withdrawn.

        21              MR. PIERSON:  Item 4 is adoption of the 

        22          Twentieth Supplemental Authorizing Resolution 

        23          to the Master Authorizing Resolution adopted on 

        24          July 21st, 1992, authorizing the issuance of 

        25          not exceeding four hundred and twenty-eight 

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             59
                                September 12, 2000
         1          million three hundred thousand dollar State of 

         2          Florida, Full Faith and Credit, State Board of 

         3          Education, PECO Bo-- 2000 series, and sale 

         4          thereof.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to approve.

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's a pretty 

         8          fast way of spending four hundred and twenty --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- million bucks.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's breathtaking.

        12              Moved and seconded.

        13              Without objection, it's approved.

        14              MR. PIERSON:  Item 5 is deferred until 

        15          September 26th.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to defer.

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        19              The motion is deferred --

        20              MR. PIERSON:  Item --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- without objection.

        22              MR. PIERSON:  Item 6 is an amendment to 

        23          Rule 6A-1.0014, Comprehensive Management 

        24          Information System.

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         3              Without objection, it's approved.

         4              MR. PIERSON:  Item 7 is a new rule, 

         5          6A-6.09091, Accommodations of the Statewide 

         6          Assessment Program Instruments and Procedures 

         7          for Limited English Proficient Students.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         9              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can we -- can you describe 

        11          what this is for me? 

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  This -- the rule 

        13          establishes procedures whereby appropriate 

        14          accommodations may be made for limited English 

        15          proficient students who are participating in 

        16          statewide assessment testing programs.  

        17          Procedures define the type of accommodations 

        18          that may be provided for each student.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are these --

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The LEP students.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- high standards, low 

        22          standards; are we lowering, highering, raising? 

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It's 

        24          accommodations for them to be able to 

        25          participate in this -- in the FCAT, if -- if 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          they need it.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Shouldn't change 

         4          the standards any.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  There's a motion and 

         6          a second.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              Item --

         9              MR. PIERSON:  Item 8 is an amendment to 

        10          Rule 6A-10.044, residency for tuition purposes. 

        11              And we have a speaker, Vincent Tome, 

        12          Miami-Dade Community College has asked to speak 

        13          on the rule.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

        15              MR. TOME:  Thank you.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Before -- I'll -- 

        17          let -- I'll move the items before he speaks, so 

        18          it'll at least be on the table.

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        21              Please.  Welcome. 

        22              MR. TOME:  Governor, members of the 

        23          Cabinet, I bring you greetings from Miami-Dade 

        24          Community College and, Governor, from your 

        25          hometown.

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                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             62
                                September 12, 2000
         1              I just want to speak briefly --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Gallagher's 

         3          hometown, too.

         4              MR. TOME:  Commissioner Gallagher's 

         5          hometown as well.

         6              I want to speak briefly to the importance 

         7          of -- of this rule to south Florida in 

         8          particular.  And I'll start by mentioning that 

         9          when we started talking about making changes in 

        10          this rule, one of our major backers was the 

        11          Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce. 

        12              Because they understood that this rule 

        13          is -- it's about economic development.  And 

        14          they understand that a less educated work 

        15          force, especially in south Florida, means a 

        16          less productive work force. 

        17              And what this -- what this rule will 

        18          address will be several problems that caused us 

        19          to deny in-state tuition to immigrants who have 

        20          lived here for many years, have paid State and 

        21          Federal taxes, and they've often graduated at 

        22          the top of their class.  But when it comes time 

        23          to apply for a state community college or a 

        24          state university, under the rule, because it's 

        25          vague or because it's unclear, we often have to 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          charge them out-of-state tuition. 

         2              And for them, the choice is not in-state 

         3          tuition, versus out-of-state tuition; for them 

         4          the choice is either in-state tuition, or not 

         5          enroll at all.

         6              So we have a huge class of -- of immigrants 

         7          who have been living here for -- for many years 

         8          and call Florida home, who want to be 

         9          productive, and can be more productive if they 

        10          get a chance at higher education. 

        11              And I -- I urge you to adopt this rule for 

        12          economic development, and for economic 

        13          opportunity.

        14              Thank you for your time.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        16              Any discussion? 

        17              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor?

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, Katherine.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I support the -- this 

        20          change.  I know that there are economic 

        21          consequences with the budget, too, that we'll 

        22          have to take a look at. 

        23              But as Florida continues to be this gateway 

        24          between the Americas, and -- and certainly a 

        25          launching place for other nations to -- to use 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          as an economic base in these markets, I think 

         2          it's really crucial in terms of our workforce 

         3          and technology, all the opportunities that we 

         4          have, for this kind of expansion. 

         5              And it's -- it's a -- it's a good rule, 

         6          it's important, and I think it's going to -- 

         7          it's a -- a rule that's long due, to make sure 

         8          that we can ensure the -- the proper education, 

         9          encourage these -- these people to participate 

        10          in our process, learn more not only about the 

        11          education issues, but democracy, and I think 

        12          hopefully export some of those great ideas back 

        13          to their countries of origin.

        14              Thanks.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

        16              There's a motion and a second. 

        17              Without objection, it's approved.

        18              Thank you. 

        19              (The State Board of Education Agenda was 

        20          concluded.)

        21                              *   *   *





                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Board of Trustees.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes for June 26 and July 11th meetings.

         4              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, the minutes are 

         7          approved.

         8              Item 2.

         9              MR. STRUHS:  Item 2, ladies and gentlemen, 

        10          is a discussion item.  There's no decision to 

        11          be made today. 

        12              But it was recommended that we bring in 

        13          representatives from the Fish and Wildlife 

        14          Conservation Commission to give you an update 

        15          on the Manatee Protection Plans for the 

        16          13 coastal counties that are required to have 

        17          them. 

        18              We're fortunate this morning to have 

        19          Dr. Allan Egbert here.  And he's also brought 

        20          along some of his manatee staff.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  These are manatees that are 

        22          actually part of the staff? 

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Manatee staff.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  These are -- these are staff 

        25          who are experts on manatees.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh.

         2              DR. EGBERT:  Actually, Governor, we're 

         3          counting them every chance we get as part of 

         4          the manatee population.

         5              Governor, members of the Cabinet, 

         6          good morning.  Thank you for having us.

         7              We don't intend to take up too much of your 

         8          time this morning, but we do appreciate the 

         9          opportunity to talk to you about the status of 

        10          manatee protection plans.

        11              And to do that, I'm going to do a typical, 

        12          bureaucratic thing, and hand it off to a person 

        13          who knows a lot more about the issue than I 

        14          am -- than I do.

        15              But before I do, let me please acknowledge 

        16          that the Governor's leadership on manatee 

        17          protection plan development has significantly 

        18          ramped up interest in the subject. 

        19              We now have one proposed plan in hand, we 

        20          know that another one is on the way, and there 

        21          are also quite a number in the process of being 

        22          developed.

        23              I should also take this opportunity to tell 

        24          you that, despite what some of you may have 

        25          read or heard in some media outlets, my 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          Commission is not considering, nor are they 

         2          even contemplating, nor have they even 

         3          discussed the possibility of down listing or 

         4          delisting Florida manatees, or changing in any 

         5          way the status. 

         6              That erroneous report came about apparently 

         7          as a result of a misunderstanding of a 

         8          discussion the Commission was having of 

         9          criteria that would be necessary for manatee 

        10          change in status to even be considered.

        11              In fact, it involved a discussion of a 

        12          manatee -- redraft of a manatee recovery plan 

        13          being contemplated by the U.S. Fish and 

        14          Wildlife Service, of which we are members.

        15              What this points out is that manatee issues 

        16          are very sensitive.  We knew that.  We learned 

        17          a lesson, and we intend to be more careful in 

        18          the future and make sure that there is no 

        19          misunderstanding.

        20              And I do apologize for any --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  At this point --

        22              DR. EGBERT:  -- heavy -- 

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- has there been a -- a 

        24          communication with the newspaper that --

        25              DR. EGBERT:  With every --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- misunderstood? 

         2              DR. EGBERT:  Yes, sir.  With every 

         3          newspaper we can -- we can reach. 

         4              We tried -- we -- we issued a -- tried to 

         5          issue a correction the next day.  Frankly, we 

         6          were unaware of it until we saw the headlines 

         7          the next morning that that came out that way. 

         8              And we do apologize for that -- any 

         9          problems that might have created with anybody.

        10              We -- we will try to be more careful in the 

        11          future and be more cautious.

        12              With that preamble, if I may, I'd like to 

        13          introduce to you Mr. Brad Hartman, who's the 

        14          Director of our Office of Information -- of 

        15          Environmental Services -- sorry -- which 

        16          includes the Bureau of Protected Species, which 

        17          includes manatees. 

        18              Brad will get you up-to-date on where we 

        19          are with manatee protection plans.

        20              And thank you.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, sir.

        22              MR. HARTMAN:  Governor Bush, members of the 

        23          Cabinet, this is going to be a brief overview 

        24          on manatee protection plans, where we are, and 

        25          where the different counties are at this time.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              Manatee protection plans were created by 

         2          Governor and Cabinet action in 1989 that 

         3          endorsed and approved a -- a wide array of -- 

         4          of conservation recommendations by the staff of 

         5          the DNR.

         6              It's oriented towards trying to reduce boat 

         7          mortality by actions of local government by the 

         8          County.  Thirteen counties were identified in 

         9          1989. 

        10              It's a holistic approach, and -- and looks 

        11          at actions that would have both a short-term 

        12          and immediate benefit to manatees, and also 

        13          those actions that have a much longer term, 

        14          less immediate benefit to manatees.

        15              These manatee protection plans have a 

        16          number of different components.  They have 

        17          about four major components.  One of the -- one 

        18          of the more important ones is education.  

        19          Almost every Manatee Protection Plan looks hard 

        20          at what the educational opportunities are in 

        21          that county, both in the school system, and on 

        22          the dock, so to speak, in trying to get signs 

        23          and -- and information out to the boaters.

        24              Education is -- is -- tends not to be 

        25          highly controversial. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              We also are able to -- to support education 

         2          by the local governments with our advisory 

         3          council on environmental education grant 

         4          program.  And the education component has been 

         5          a -- a pretty successful element.

         6              A second element of manatee protection 

         7          plans is law enforcement.  Local governments 

         8          have a considerable opportunity to protect 

         9          manatees through their own water patrol and 

        10          law enforcement, and many of the -- of the 

        11          counties have taken advantage of that 

        12          opportunity.

        13              A third and more controversial element of 

        14          the manatee protection plans is the creation of 

        15          manatee boat speed zones, regulations to define 

        16          how fast and -- and what places boats can 

        17          travel.

        18              This has a statutory basis under 370.12, 

        19          which allows both the local government and the 

        20          FWC to pass regulations on boat speed.

        21              All 13 counties that are -- that we 

        22          identified back in 1989, which all identified, 

        23          have -- have speed zones at this time.  In all 

        24          cases, there are speed zones by the State of 

        25          Florida, the old DEP, and now the FWC, and in 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          many of these cases, there are ordinances by 

         2          the local governments in place regulating boat 

         3          speed for the sake of manatees.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So can I just ask a 

         5          question? 

         6              MR. HARTMAN:  Yes.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm -- I'm -- as you might 

         8          imagine, I'm getting a little bit of -- I'm 

         9          getting a few e-mails and letters regarding 

        10          this.

        11              MR. HARTMAN:  I'm -- I'm aware of that.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The -- the -- the boat 

        13          speed regulation is already in place, 

        14          irrespective of whether or not these manatee 

        15          protection plans have been completed? 

        16              MR. HARTMAN:  They are independent.  Yes.  

        17          We --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And they're -- and they're 

        19          all in existence right now? 

        20              MR. HARTMAN:  There are -- there are all -- 

        21          there are 13 -- all 13 counties have speed 

        22          zones at this time created by the State; and in 

        23          some cases --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So --

        25              MR. HARTMAN:  -- also created by that 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          government.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- so with the creation of 

         3          a -- of a -- an approved Manatee Protection 

         4          Plan, would there necessarily be increases in 

         5          areas that -- where -- where boats would have 

         6          to slow down? 

         7              Or that's already in place, and it doesn't 

         8          require any additional --

         9              MR. HARTMAN:  They're in place.  Now -- 

        10          now, we as a State agency are constantly 

        11          reviewing those zones to see if they need 

        12          updating and improving.  Local governments go 

        13          through the same process. 

        14              A Manatee Protection Plan is -- is not 

        15          going to provide major breakthroughs in -- 

        16          in -- in the boat speed zones on its own.  The 

        17          major area where the manatee protection plans 

        18          are going to have an effect is in the boat 

        19          facility siting area, which I'll be getting to.

        20              In fact, one of the problems with trying to 

        21          do your boat speed zone rules through the local 

        22          government process, through the MPP, is that 

        23          these are often very contentious, difficult 

        24          issues; and it often gets tangled up with the 

        25          development of the boating facility site plans, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          which are one of the key elements of -- of 

         2          these MPPs.

         3              With that, let me just get into the 

         4          boating -- the boat facility siting component.  

         5          The idea here is to try to get the local 

         6          government to plan where they want to put 

         7          their -- their marinas and their boat ramps, 

         8          and where they want to expand those facilities, 

         9          and put them in places that will have the least 

        10          impact to manatees that are either traveling 

        11          through an area, or feeding in an area.

        12              This is a very difficult area to resolve 

        13          sometime.  As you might imagine, there's a lot 

        14          of money involved, a lot of -- a lot of 

        15          people's interest and their land are involved.  

        16          And it's a -- it -- it is not a -- it's not as 

        17          easy to develop an acceptable plan to all 

        18          parties.

        19              We do not have a statutory basis for 

        20          creating the -- the -- the marina siting 

        21          element or the boating facility siting element.  

        22          And this has pretty well forced us to try to 

        23          work on a consensus-building approach in 

        24          developing this element of manatee protection 

        25          plans.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              Consensus-building sometimes works, and 

         2          sometimes it doesn't when things get a little 

         3          too controversial.

         4              As a result of the way we've tried to work 

         5          with each county and -- and look at each county 

         6          differently, and -- and take a look at its own 

         7          peculiar situations, and -- and environment, 

         8          the boating facility siting plans differ in 

         9          their format and the way they function from 

        10          county to county. 

        11              And we see no problem with that general 

        12          approach in trying to fit the -- the needs of 

        13          the County and the needs of the manatee, and -- 

        14          and not get locked into a -- a format that we 

        15          have to live by.

        16              I -- it was the intent I believe in 1989 

        17          that, when a county develops its Boating 

        18          Facility Siting Plan, and gets it approved, 

        19          that it incorporate these into its own actions, 

        20          either through the Comp Plan.  And one of the 

        21          counties that has had -- had an approved 

        22          Manatee Protection Plan just directly and -- 

        23          took their plan and put it into the Comp Plan.

        24              The other counties that have had their 

        25          man-- their Manatee Protection Plans approved, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          have tended to implement those through their 

         2          codes and through their ordinances.

         3              One of the problems that counties face in 

         4          developing the -- the plan is -- is that there 

         5          are other cities and other areas within the  

         6          county that the County doesn't have direct 

         7          authority over.  That requires some more of 

         8          this consensus-building I mentioned before.

         9              That's a little background of just what the 

        10          manatee plans are.  Here's -- here's how we 

        11          stand so far.  Out of the 13 counties that 

        12          originally got this charge, four of these 

        13          counties have had -- have had manatee 

        14          protection plans approved with all the -- all 

        15          the elements.  That's Dade, Collier, Citrus, 

        16          and Duval County.

        17              We have two more that are kind of cl-- 

        18          getting -- getting close.  We're not sure 

        19          exactly how close.  We've received a Manatee 

        20          Protection Plan proposal from Indian River 

        21          County.  Initial staff review of it, it looks 

        22          pretty favorable.  So we'll be trying to come 

        23          up with an evaluation and an approval of that 

        24          within the next couple of weeks.

        25              We've also received a proposed Manatee 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          Protection Plan from Volusia County, or -- or 

         2          we're -- we think we're going to receive it in 

         3          the next week or so.  They approved it at their 

         4          meeting.

         5              This will bring up -- this one will not 

         6          have a Boating Facility Siting Plan in it.  

         7          We're going to have to try to work with 

         8          Volusia County on that.

         9              The remaining seven counties don't have 

        10          something to us, or -- or on the -- or in the 

        11          mail.  But I want to just go briefly through 

        12          some of those counties, and -- and try to tell 

        13          you where they are. 

        14              Brevard County has been one of the most 

        15          difficult counties we've had in trying to 

        16          develop manatee protection plans.  There's been 

        17          an ongoing effort for -- for many years of 

        18          trying to come up with this. 

        19              The problems seem to be this -- both the 

        20          combination of the speed zone and the Boating 

        21          Facility Siting Plan.  The education, 

        22          law enforcement, all that goes pretty smoothly.

        23              The -- Brevard County submitted plans to 

        24          the DEP back in '96 and '97 that has never 

        25          gotten approval, and has never quite worked out 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          all the details.  And they've been meeting with 

         2          the DEP and now the FWC regularly, right up 

         3          almost to present.

         4              We suggested recently that they not do a 

         5          boating speed zone component in order to focus 

         6          their attention on Boating Facility Siting 

         7          Plan.  We're -- we're in the process now of 

         8          reviewing Brevard County's --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sir, I thought you said 

        10          that there was -- all of these counties had 

        11          boating speed zones in place.  So why would you 

        12          ask them to do it again? 

        13              MR. HARTMAN:  We are not.  In fact, I'm 

        14          asking them to -- let's -- let's let that one 

        15          lie, let's move on with other elements because 

        16          it is in place, and the State is -- is now 

        17          reviewing those regulations to see if they need 

        18          any adjusting.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Since 1996? 

        20              MR. HARTMAN:  Since -- that's correct.  

        21          They -- they have done some --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's --

        23              MR. HARTMAN:  -- rulemaking --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- incredible.

        25              MR. HARTMAN:  -- back in 1992.  And their 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          latest revision was in 1998 on a small area.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

         3              MR. HARTMAN:  Broward County, back in 1992, 

         4          had a -- had a proposal they submitted to DEP.  

         5          But Broward County did not include a Boating 

         6          Facility Siting Plan.  Again, this is a 

         7          difficult area to try to get hammered out.

         8              We -- we've had indications of interest 

         9          from Broward County to -- to get back on track 

        10          and pursue that boating facility plan.

        11              Lee County -- Lee County has been active in 

        12          manatee conservation, but they have not 

        13          developed an MPP at this time. 

        14              They did do some shoreline, parcel, and 

        15          marina facility identification work back in 

        16          1995.  And we currently have a grant to them 

        17          from a legislative appropriation for that 

        18          purpose to try to update that, redo the -- 

        19          their survey and their analysis of the marina 

        20          situation, and try to -- try to get the Boating 

        21          Facility Siting Plan completed.

        22              In Martin County, we've had a lot of 

        23          trouble because of high staff turnover, made 

        24          the development of an MPP difficult. 

        25              However, in the last year, we've had 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          renewed interest from Martin County.  And in 

         2          February of this year, we also gave them a 

         3          grant to try to develop this Boating Facility 

         4          Siting Plan.

         5              That report will be due in -- is due in 

         6          December.  We hope to give them another grant 

         7          for next year to finish this off and get us a 

         8          final Boating Facility Siting Plan by 

         9          December 2001.

        10              Palm Beach County, there was a lot of work 

        11          done on identifying locations of suitable 

        12          marinas, a lot of work done on identifying 

        13          grass beds.  However, it never jelled, there 

        14          never was a proposal to the DEP or the FWC on 

        15          an actual MPP that had -- on an actual 

        16          protection plan that had this Boating Facility 

        17          Siting element.

        18              Sarasota County, another county that has a 

        19          reasonably active manatee conservation program, 

        20          but very little work has been done on the MPPs.  

        21          I don't have very much more on that.

        22              In St. Lucie County, the last of the 13, 

        23          this -- also this February, we -- we gave them 

        24          a grant to work through the Treasure Coast 

        25          Regional Planning Council, analyze the marina 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          situation in their county, and the boat ramp 

         2          situation, and come back with a report this 

         3          December. 

         4              Again, like Martin, we hope to extend their 

         5          grant for next year with the idea of completing 

         6          that Boating Facility Plan.

         7              That's a -- that concludes the summary 

         8          of -- of where we are with the different 

         9          counties and with the program. 

        10              I'd certainly be glad to answer any 

        11          questions.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions? 

        13              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I have a question.

        14              In terms of the MPP, would you explain to 

        15          me one more time, because I -- I see that you 

        16          have a separate marina siting study, the 

        17          boating activity study, and then the manatee 

        18          protection rules that -- that everyone has 

        19          adopted. 

        20              And if the Manatee Protection Plan doesn't 

        21          include the speed zones or law enforcement 

        22          issues, those kinds of things, because that's 

        23          all handled locally, what exactly does the 

        24          Manatee Protection Plan do? 

        25              Because I -- it says in the book, siting 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          plan, that that's when you look more at the 

         2          docks and the interaction of manatees. 

         3              So can you tell me specifically what the 

         4          Manatee Protection Plan covers.

         5              MR. HARTMAN:  Okay.  It -- it's a -- it's a 

         6          product of a local government, first of all -- 

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Uh-hum. 

         8              MR. HARTMAN:  -- on how they want to run 

         9          their county with regard to manatees in the 

        10          areas of education; law enforcement; boat speed 

        11          zones; and most importantly, boating facility 

        12          siting, which means where to put the marinas 

        13          and where to put the -- the docks and the boat 

        14          ramps.

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.  All right.  But 

        16          you said also, in addition to that, that 

        17          already the local and state governments already 

        18          have taken care of the -- the law enforcement 

        19          and the speed zones, whether they have the 

        20          manatee plan or not; is that --

        21              MR. HARTMAN:  The big -- 

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- correct?

        23              MR. HARTMAN:  -- hang-up in all this is the 

        24          Boating Facility Siting Plans. 

        25              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. HARTMAN:  That's the area that's been 

         2          last to be developed in most of these counties, 

         3          and it's the area --

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And the most difficult.

         5              MR. HARTMAN:  It's the most difficult.

         6              SECRETARY HARRIS:  The Boating Facility 

         7          Siting Plan, is that the same as the separate  

         8          Marina Siting Study?

         9              MR. HARTMAN:  That's correct.

        10              SECRETARY HARRIS:  So those are just 

        11          synonymous -- synonymous with -- 

        12              MR. HARTMAN:  Correct.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  When you say there's no 

        14          statutory authority, what, basically the 

        15          State's role in this is right here? 

        16              MR. HARTMAN:  That's correct.  Yes, sir.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Board of Trustees is the --

        18              MR. HARTMAN:  Is --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the place where we can 

        20          make a difference in accelerating or 

        21          decelerating any siting of marinas.

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  But -- that was my 

        23          next -- that was my next question.

        24              If -- if we -- we do have statutory 

        25          authority for the Manatee Protection Plan, and 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          right now, you have us to help with regard to 

         2          the separate marina siting study, do you think 

         3          that -- are you trying -- are you pursuing 

         4          statutory authority through legislation that we 

         5          could move along so we could help assist in 

         6          terms of the separate marina siting study 

         7          issues? 

         8              MR. HARTMAN:  We have been discussing that 

         9          with -- with folks, what kind of opportunities 

        10          will be there, whether or not there might be an 

        11          opportunity under some growth management --

        12              (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)

        13              MR. HARTMAN:  -- language. 

        14              But at this point, we don't have anything 

        15          very definite we want to do.  We're kind of -- 

        16          kind of hold off until the -- the summit that 

        17          the Governor is proposing, and to give that a 

        18          little bit more thought.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  When I'm looking at 

        20          these different studies that -- that come from 

        21          the information from your office, is the -- is 

        22          the separate marina siting study, is that only 

        23          four out of nine counties have approved that 

        24          separate marina siting study.

        25              Is that, in your opinion, one of the most 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          important issues? 

         2              MR. HARTMAN:  It, in my opinion, is clearly 

         3          the most important issue, because it's 

         4          completely in the hands of the local 

         5          government, and it's their plan. 

         6              When we go to speed zones, we can do it.  

         7          The State can do it.  We don't -- it's -- it's 

         8          nice to work hand-in-hand with the counties, 

         9          but we don't absolutely need that. 

        10              The local government is the only one, at 

        11          this time, that can pass and create its own 

        12          plan for what it wants to do with marinas and 

        13          boat ramps.

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  So -- one last question.

        15              So from your perspective in terms of our 

        16          participation, and it is legislated about the 

        17          Manatee Protection Plan, would you like to see 

        18          us really focus on the separate marina siting 

        19          study, since that's one of the most important 

        20          components, and that's something where we can 

        21          directly react, which only -- again, only four 

        22          have -- have done that, which seems to be the 

        23          most difficult piece.

        24              MR. HARTMAN:  I think that would the -- the 

        25          logical area to focus.  It's the most directly 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          tied also to the Trustees' function of -- of 

         2          leasing submerged lands. 

         3              And I would propose that we -- we focus 

         4          almost exclusively on boat facility siting.  

         5          The rest of the plans seem to be working along 

         6          and -- okay.  This is the area we need the 

         7          help.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Thank you. 

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments, 

        10          questions? 

        11              MR. HARTMAN:  Thank you.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        13              We -- the -- for -- for those interested in 

        14          the -- the summit that we've proposed, the date 

        15          has been changed to October 19th.  It's going 

        16          to be in Tallahassee.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  That -- that concludes the 

        18          presentation from the Fish and Wildlife 

        19          Conservation Commission.

        20              And Colleen Castille would like to speak. 

        21              MS. CASTILLE:  I'm sorry, Governor. 

        22              I -- I have to correct the record here.  

        23          The -- we do have -- the -- the local 

        24          governments do have authority in Chapter 163 

        25          for an optional element in their comprehensive 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          plans for marina siting. 

         2              And -- and we're -- we're doing -- we're 

         3          looking at the statute right now to give you 

         4          the specific citation. 

         5              So there -- there -- I -- I've been looking 

         6          at this issue for two months now, and -- and 

         7          we've got -- the -- the local governments do 

         8          have that authority.  I'll give you the 

         9          specific citation --

        10              (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)

        11              MS. CASTILLE:  -- as soon as we find it.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  The question to the Board of 

        13          Trustees then is:  Are you interested in -- in 

        14          hearing comments from some of the folks who 

        15          have come here today and are in the audience? 

        16              And if so, we might want to recommend 

        17          limiting that discussion in recognition of the 

        18          fact that on October 19th, the manatee summit 

        19          will offer a full day for a more detailed 

        20          discussion.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yeah.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Well, what's the pleasure of 

        23          the Trustees? 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Anybody have a pleasure? 

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We may be better 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          off doing it there than here.

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- again on 

         3          the 19th.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  I -- I appreciate 

         5          the large interest in this.  That's a good 

         6          sign. 

         7              But from my perspective, I'm -- I hope that 

         8          we can use the 19th and leading up to it to -- 

         9          to build a consensus to -- for -- for an action 

        10          plan.

        11              My -- I -- on the other hand, I always -- I 

        12          don't think I've ever shut off anybody that 

        13          wants to come talk.  So --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're going to hear it 

        16          again.  I mean, it's going to be -- it may be 

        17          somewhat --

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- repetitive.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- a 

        21          non-action item.  It's a -- 

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  This is just 

        23          discussion.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.  It's just discussion.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's true.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If you want to 

         2          speak, here it is.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Go ahead.  Let's do it. 

         4              Let's just be brief.

         5              MR. ROSE:  Yes, sir.

         6              Well, the first thing I want to do -- I'm 

         7          Pat Rose, Government Relations Director for 

         8          Save the Manatee Club.

         9              The first thing I want to do is thank you, 

        10          Governor, and members of the Cabinet, for 

        11          taking this issue, and bringing it back to the 

        12          forefront where it needs to be.

        13              I think you're aware that I was the 

        14          administrator in charge of these Protected 

        15          Species Programs in 1989 when we brought these 

        16          prior programs to the Board of Trustees for 

        17          those actions. 

        18              I want to applaud Governor Martinez, and -- 

        19          and also including members that exist today 

        20          that were there and recognized this problem as 

        21          the severity of what it was, and -- and it 

        22          really is.  And I'll be very brief.  But I want 

        23          to give you an overview quickly. 

        24              We were on the right track.  The right 

        25          issues were being addressed, the -- the right 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          people were being brought together, the right 

         2          emphasis was being given to this to avoid the 

         3          dilemma that we find ourselves in today. 

         4              We did very good from 1989 to about 1993.  

         5          We're being very effective.  The counties were 

         6          cooperating, they were doing what needed to be 

         7          done the way it needed to be done.  The will 

         8          was lost.

         9              I see that will being returned to this, 

        10          Governor, with your leadership, and the 

        11          Attorney General, and -- and others in -- 

        12          Treasurer Nelson, and -- have been very strong 

        13          supporters of manatees throughout this time.

        14              So I just urge you that we can make this 

        15          summit be what it needs to be.  And I won't 

        16          take issue with things that maybe I disagreed 

        17          with that were said today, because we'll wait 

        18          till the summit to do that.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        20              MR. ROSE:  And I thank you very much for 

        21          your leadership. 

        22              And I know we can resolve these things if 

        23          we quit avoiding the problems, because Florida 

        24          is growing, it's going to grow, we know we want 

        25          to have manatees around, we know we're going to 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          have boats around.  So let's get together and 

         2          use the leadership you're exerting, and let's 

         3          solve this.

         4              Thank you very much.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

         6              Anybody else like to speak?

         7              Mr. Hopping, how are you, sir? 

         8              MR. HOPPING:  I'm fine, Governor.

         9              Made me put on a tie today.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I apologize.

        11              MR. HOPPING:  I appreciate the 

        12          opportunity --

        13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  We had to.

        14              MR. HOPPING:  -- to be --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  Exactly.

        16              MR. HOPPING:  I represent the National 

        17          Marine Manufacturers Association, and have been 

        18          asked to also say a word or two for the 

        19          Association of Florida Community Developers, 

        20          and others.

        21              We're very glad you're having this summit.  

        22          We're also very glad that you've -- and the 

        23          Game Commission and others have enhanced the 

        24          on-the-water enforcement. 

        25              My experience with comprehensive planning 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          and other planning is that plans don't always 

         2          end up making something happen.  And this is a 

         3          case where we have a growing population of 

         4          boaters, and a growing population of manatees.

         5              And we're going to have to figure out some 

         6          innovative, maybe technological ways of making 

         7          the water compatible. 

         8              Boating is a big business in Florida.  A 

         9          hundred and fifty-eight thousand jobs are 

        10          connected with the boating industry.  It's a 

        11          10.5 billion dollar job a year.  You'll hear 

        12          all that at the summit. 

        13              I think you're on the right track with the 

        14          summit.  I think it's the right thing to do.  

        15          And -- and I hope, as you move forward through 

        16          this process, we'll look at things other than 

        17          these plans, because, you know, you've got 

        18          Growth Management Study Commission going now 

        19          that's seeing what's happened with all that 

        20          planning we did years and years ago, and what 

        21          it has and hasn't produced.

        22              So -- but I think there's some action steps 

        23          that have been taken.  And so we -- we support 

        24          where you're going with the summit.

        25              Fortunately for those who participate, I'll 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          be in Wales when that happens, but -- 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a pretty tie though, 

         3          Wade.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm sure --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for coming.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- you'll have 

         7          somebody fill in for you.

         8              MR. HOPPING:  Yes.  Several somebodies.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would anybody else like to 

        10          speak? 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Thanks, Wade.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Okay.  Thank you.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, David.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'd like to defer 

        16          Item Number 3 and Item Number 4.

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motions to defer and 

        19          seconds.

        20              Without objection, they're deferred.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, and members of the 

        22          Cabinet, on Item Number 5, there's been a 

        23          proposed change to this item which is -- was 

        24          negotiated just this morning between the 

        25          applicant and members of the Department and the 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          Save the Manatee Club. 

         2              The item you have before you has -- has 

         3          three different considerations.  There would be 

         4          a -- another one added.  It would insert 

         5          language with the following condition -- and 

         6          it's very brief, I'll just read it to you. 

         7              Hawkins Avenue Corporation shall install, 

         8          when technologically and economically feasible, 

         9          prop guards on all tugboats associated with 

        10          this facility in order to minimize potential 

        11          adverse impacts to manatees.

        12              So if I could please ask you to -- to 

        13          consider the item with that proposed --

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 

        15          Item 5 --

        16              MR. STRUHS:  -- amendment.

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- including the 

        18          proposed changes.

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        21              Without objection as amended, it's 

        22          approved.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  With that -- with that then, 

        24          we would recommend approval of this item.  We 

        25          do have a member of --

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Just got it.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It just happened. 

         3              You're on Item 6 now.

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I think there are 

         5          some people opposed to it.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have people opposed? 

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Well, we -- I -- I apologize.  

         8          I thought that what you were doing was just 

         9          sort of agreeing to adopt that amendment, but 

        10          not to actually adopt the whole item.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We did the whole 

        12          thing.  Is there something we shouldn't have 

        13          done? 

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Well, we would have 

        15          recommended -- we -- we --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I thought you said there 

        17          was an agreement.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  There is.  But there were a 

        19          number of residents in the area who had some 

        20          concerns about erosion that they wanted to 

        21          bring to your attention.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Let them --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Bring them on.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  We've got Rebecca Khan, 

        25          Vernie Hodges, and --

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I don't want to be --

         2              MR. STRUHS:  -- Lorraine Kratz.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- something that's already 

         4          been done.  But -- 

         5              MR. STRUHS:  Sorry about that. 

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  David, next time, if people 

         7          are going to speak, don't let me pull the 

         8          trigger so fast.

         9              Please, come and -- welcome. 

        10              MS. KRATZ:  Thank you, sir.

        11              My name is Lorraine Kratz, and I am one of 

        12          the property owners near the proposed site.

        13              We -- one of our main concerns is erosion.  

        14          But on the manatee issue, I would like to say 

        15          that in the letter that I had received that 

        16          indicated that this was not a manatee 

        17          aggregation area -- and I'm not exactly sure 

        18          what all that means.  But I know that there's 

        19          family pods of -- of sea cows, manatees that go 

        20          right up and down that site and feed along the 

        21          same area that -- that they're proposing to do 

        22          this project.

        23              Governor Bush, and Honorable Cabinet 

        24          members, erosion has always been a concern for 

        25          riverfront property owners.  And although we 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          are not directly opposing the industrial 

         2          development of the area, the potential for loss 

         3          is too great to let go without comment. 

         4              It is for this reason that we've taken the 

         5          time and effort to -- to appear before you -- 

         6          and I'm sorry I'm so nervous.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You're doing fine.

         8              MS. KRATZ:  Erosion of the sandy soil that 

         9          makes up our banks is a fact of life.  And 

        10          throughout time, our shores have seen much 

        11          depletion, greatly due to the fact that the 

        12          channel is maintained for ships to be able to 

        13          get to the electric plant on down the river. 

        14              Other factors would be a steady flow of 

        15          tugboats and ships that visit the Blount Island 

        16          marine terminal all the way on the other side 

        17          of the river.

        18              If these factors at a distance have been 

        19          such a detriment, how much more of -- of an 

        20          impact would the proposed development make, 

        21          given a close-in dredging operation, and the 

        22          added turbulence kicked up by tugs and barges 

        23          also operating right at our shorelines?

        24              Erosion is not an issue that has just 

        25          suddenly become -- that we've become concerned 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          about.  My mother, recently within the last 

         2          two years, tried to take steps to slow the 

         3          erosion process, but was heavily fined by the 

         4          EPA in order to remove the material that she 

         5          had put in to protect her property.

         6              It seems that the State has a $57,799 

         7          vested interest in making sure that the 

         8          submerged land lease is granted.  And as there 

         9          is a potential benefit to the State, we feel 

        10          that the State has a responsibility to take 

        11          measures to protect the rights and the 

        12          properties of those who stand to lose the most.

        13              I respectfully ask this group to afford us 

        14          a modicum of protection by having our 

        15          properties bulkheaded, either at the expense of 

        16          the State via the profits made from the 

        17          consideration -- excuse me -- or at the expense 

        18          of the company seeking the permit.

        19              Our reasonable expectation is not that we 

        20          would gain any additional land, only that the 

        21          State would protect and preserve the land for 

        22          the future now, while there's still something 

        23          to protect.

        24              I thank you for your time and your 

        25          thoughtful consideration of this matter.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, ma'am.

         2              Would anybody else like to speak?  

         3              Good morning. 

         4              MS. KHAN:  I'm Rebecca Khan, and I 

         5          appreciate this opportunity to speak.  I 

         6          understand this was rescheduled from a July 

         7          meeting when we did not receive notification.

         8              I own property directly adjacent to the 

         9          Hawkins Avenue Wood-Hopkins proposed 

        10          dredging -- 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Get --

        12              MS. KHAN:  -- dredging -- 

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Perfect.

        14              MS. KHAN:  -- and docking project.  And, 

        15          again, I do not oppose the development 

        16          outright. 

        17              I do, however, have concerns that this 

        18          development will negatively affect adjacent 

        19          property.  Most urgently --

        20              (Secretary Harris exited the room.)

        21              MS. KHAN:  -- the most urgent concern is 

        22          erosion along the waterfront.  And this is a 

        23          historical concern. 

        24              This property has been in my family for 

        25          three generations.  It was purchased by my 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          Great Aunt, Annie Marie Stein, over 75 years 

         2          ago, and I spent my childhood and young 

         3          adulthood along the river shores.

         4              I have a copy of a letter written by my 

         5          Great Aunt, which I can provide for the record, 

         6          in which she describes in 1926 that erosion was 

         7          a problem then, and that was due to shipping 

         8          traffic and dredging, which was occurring in 

         9          the vicinity.

        10              As I understand it, until now, the dredging 

        11          has always been in mid channel or on the 

        12          opposite side of the river along Blount Island.  

        13          Nonetheless, over time, dredging and water 

        14          traffic, especially during times of high water, 

        15          have had devastating effects. 

        16              By the 1930s, my Great Aunt had to move her 

        17          house to prevent it falling into the river.

        18              Around the time the house was moved back, 

        19          my Great Aunt also attempted to slow down the 

        20          erosion by installing a row of barrels at the 

        21          edge of the bluff. 

        22              I have a photograph of that, too, which 

        23          clearly shows the contour of the river, and how 

        24          it has eroded from the time the barrels were 

        25          placed to where the bluff is now.  It's about 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          35 feet of additional erosion.

         2              The bluff is sandy, and our fear is that 

         3          having seen what happened in the past, that 

         4          nearby dredging with increased shipping traffic 

         5          and resulting wakes will do irreparable harm to 

         6          our properties.

         7              Property that is lost to erosion cannot be 

         8          replaced.  And we ask that your decision in 

         9          this matter reflect the name of your 

        10          department, environmental protection.  It is 

        11          only fair that our property also be protected. 

        12              We ask that you take necessary measures to 

        13          ensure protection of our property and 

        14          resources.  Ultimately, it will not only be in 

        15          our -- the property owners interest, but it 

        16          will be in the best interest of the State to 

        17          ensure that these properties remain intact and 

        18          viable for future development. 

        19              In closing, we ask that, if you approve the 

        20          permit, you will ensure protection of our 

        21          properties.

        22              And I thank you for your consideration.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Ms. -- Ms. Kratz now?

        25              MS. KHAN:  Ms. Hodge.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  I'm sorry.  Hodge. 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good morning. 

         3              Thank you for coming.

         4              MS. HODGES:  Good morning.

         5              My name is Vernie Hodges, and I reside at 

         6          4517 Irving Road in Duval County, or 

         7          Jacksonville, Florida. 

         8              And as the prior speakers have said, we do 

         9          have an erosion problem on our side of the 

        10          river. 

        11              And as far as the manatees goes, there's 

        12          plenty of them comes up and down the river, and 

        13          mostly in the wintertime.  They do that because 

        14          of the warm waters that's coming from JEA, and 

        15          they kindly congregate in that area.

        16              So -- and they do feed on the short marsh 

        17          grasses that's along the bank.  I have been 

        18          there at that particular place for 28 years.  

        19          And I've been watching the erosion on my bank.  

        20          I put in some tiles to hold it.  And -- well, 

        21          the Department of Environmental Protection told 

        22          me to take it out.

        23              So they made me take it out at my own cost.  

        24          It cost me $1600 to get that tile removed from 

        25          the bank.  And that's where I'm at.  I'm trying 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          to protect my -- I'm trying to protect my 

         2          property, and they would not let me.  They made 

         3          me take it back out at a cost of $1600 to me.

         4              And I am on a fixed income.  I cannot 

         5          afford that kind of money.  And $1,000 may not 

         6          be much to some people, but it was my life 

         7          savings.

         8              So due to the fact that that's all I have, 

         9          that's my home, and I think that we should be 

        10          protected from erosion on our bank.

        11              I think we should have the -- the privilege 

        12          to -- when we can afford it, to bulkhead our 

        13          properties, or have it bulkheaded some way or 

        14          the other, to avoid all this erosion.  And I 

        15          thank you very much for your consideration. 

        16              I have maps to prove that we have had bad 

        17          erosion on it.  And I can show them to you at 

        18          any time, now if you prefer to look at them. 

        19              But we just can't keep going on like this, 

        20          and everybody being protected that's got money, 

        21          but the people that don't have money is not 

        22          protected too well.

        23              And I thank you very much.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, ma'am.

        25              Thank you very much.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              Secretary Struhs, do you have any comments 

         2          about the erosion and what impact this lease 

         3          will have? 

         4              MR. STRUHS:  Sir, yes.

         5              (Secretary Harris entered the room.)

         6              MR. STRUHS:  We're fortunate to have 

         7          Mr. Ernie Frey --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are there other speakers?  

         9          I'm sorry.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  -- with us this morning.

        11              Mr. Frey runs the DEP's office in 

        12          Jacksonville, and has more personal familiarity 

        13          with this. 

        14              His conclusion, the Department's 

        15          conclusion, is that this agenda item, if -- if 

        16          constructed, would not increase the regular 

        17          rate of erosion on that river at that site.

        18              Specifically as it relates though to 

        19          Mrs. Hodges' issue regarding the removal of 

        20          some material she put on the shore, that's 

        21          something that we're not familiar with, but we 

        22          will certainly look into that.

        23              Mr. Frey. 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you could answer the -- 

        25          the -- how -- if there's anything that -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          that -- that we can do to help the people that 

         2          came here to speak about the erosion problem, 

         3          irrespective of this lease, I'd -- I'd be 

         4          grateful.

         5              MR. FREY:  Well, you know, sir, property 

         6          owners have the right to reclaim areas that 

         7          have been eroded as -- when they come to the 

         8          Department and ask for that, we obviously go 

         9          through the activity of -- of permitting any of 

        10          those things that we can help them with. 

        11              But there is a permit that's required, as 

        12          you're -- as you're aware for activities 

        13          that -- that may -- may take place.

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.  But what -- 

        15          but they have to pay to do it.  All you do is 

        16          let them do it.

        17              MR. FREY:  There is a minor fee for the 

        18          permit, yes, sir.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And it -- no, I'm 

        20          not worried about the permit.  That's -- 

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's cost of installation.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- once they get 

        23          the permit, we don't reclaim the land for them.  

        24          They have to do it themselves.

        25              MR. FREY:  Yes, sir.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And if one 

         2          property owner was to do it, I don't think it 

         3          would last very long because the erosion would 

         4          take it -- I mean, you'd have to -- everybody 

         5          would have to do it.

         6              MR. FREY:  Sir, if I could -- if I could 

         7          clarify a little bit on the channel that we're 

         8          talking -- the water that we're talking about  

         9          here.  This is not the main channel of the 

        10          river.  This is the back river.  It is the old 

        11          river channel. 

        12              The Corps of Engineers has cut a -- a new 

        13          channel for shipping that goes in front of 

        14          Blount Island.  So that is the main area of 

        15          current that occurs within this particular area 

        16          that transports the water from the tidal action 

        17          up the river.

        18              There is activity along this, but from the 

        19          staff's review, and -- and visits to the site, 

        20          they're seeing that actually sedimentation is 

        21          actually occurring along the shoreline, not an 

        22          erosion occurring in this particular area.

        23              Now, there is some erosion that may occur 

        24          from wave action because of tugboats and -- and 

        25          boat traffic that goes down through there.  But 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          from a regular, natural erosion, that's not -- 

         2          that's not the problem in this particular area.

         3              In the -- in this permit, what we've 

         4          requested is that the applicant remain 25 feet 

         5          from the riparian line so that there'll be a 

         6          minimum of impact to the adjacent properties, 

         7          and also that the slope of the basin that's 

         8          going to be dredged will be at a 1 to 4 slope 

         9          to minimize any erosion for slumping that may 

        10          occur into the -- into the dredged basin that 

        11          they need for their barge storage.

        12              So we -- we are anticipating that there 

        13          will not be any adjacent -- any additional 

        14          erosion if the -- if any is occurring on 

        15          these -- because of this particular activity.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions? 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, Lorraine Kratz, 

        18          who -- who's already appeared before you, would 

        19          like to amend her earlier comments, or add to 

        20          them.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

        22              MS. KRATZ:  I just wanted to say one thing:  

        23          There's a section of property that is all 

        24          bulkheaded, and then there are three 

        25          property owners, and then the Hawkins group. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              And so if the Hawkins group is bulkheaded, 

         2          and the properties on down the line, which a 

         3          number of years ago was bulkheaded by the State 

         4          because I think the property owner was a 

         5          light keeper or something, then that'll leave 

         6          just a small cove, a small section of three 

         7          properties that are not bulkheaded. 

         8              And so our contention is, all this wash 

         9          comes in and washes us out, and the added 

        10          turbulence is going to add to it.

        11              I'm not an engineer, I don't claim to be.  

        12          But it seems to me like that, either we should 

        13          be allowed to bulkhead, or that it should -- if 

        14          the State is going to -- to benefit something 

        15          from it, that it should also be bulkheaded as 

        16          well, and make the entire portion bulkheaded.

        17              Thank you.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Question, 

        20          Governor.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  David, if --

        23              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- if -- I think 

        25          we should -- if -- if what your staff in 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          Jacksonville says is true, that basically it's 

         2          building instead of eroding --

         3              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- we should have 

         5          the staff make a measurement on where it is 

         6          today.  And if, in fact, we find that there's a 

         7          large amount of erosion because of the use 

         8          of -- of this property we're getting a lease 

         9          to, I think the company and the State have an 

        10          obligation to do something about it.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And -- and so I --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'll tell you what, 

        14          you're --

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- modify the 

        16          lease --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- not an engineer.  You 

        18          sure sound like one. 

        19              I -- I mean, is there an engineer in the 

        20          house that would dispute that?  That sounds 

        21          like a pretty good description of what will 

        22          happen.  I --

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, if it does, 

        24          then I think that --

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- and I don't 

         2          know that it will, but it appears to me that it 

         3          could.  And if it does, I think there's an 

         4          obligation by the State for giving the lease, 

         5          and by the company for causing the erosion, to 

         6          do something about it.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Right. 

         8              Well, let -- let me just reiterate.  Our 

         9          analysis of that particular situation is that 

        10          we will actually see accretion, not erosion; 

        11          but what we will commit to today is -- is to 

        12          get another team out there --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, it's not a 

        14          matter of what we think will happen.  What I 

        15          I'm talking about is what --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  What --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- actually 

        18          happens. 

        19              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And if it -- if it 

        21          accretes, then, hey, nobody has a complaint.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If it erodes, 

        24          then -- then these people have a valid 

        25          complaint, and it ought to be fixed.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Right. 

         2              And we -- we will take that recommendation, 

         3          and -- and implement it and get some 

         4          measurements out there to actually prove or 

         5          disprove one way or the other what's actually 

         6          going to happen.

         7              I would just, if I could, please, inquire 

         8          as to whether or not Mr. Ricky Mitchell is 

         9          here?

        10              MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Did you want to speak, sir?

        12              Mr. Mitchell is the President of 

        13          Wood-Hopkins, and representing the -- the 

        14          applicant.

        15              Thank you, Commissioner. 

        16              MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you. 

        17              My name's Rick Mitchell.  I own 

        18          Hawkins Avenue Corporation, along with my 

        19          children. 

        20              I am a native Floridian.  I presently live 

        21          in Georgia.  I appreciate the opportunity to 

        22          speak. 

        23              We're very -- very, very aware of the 

        24          adjacent property owners.  You've got to 

        25          realize that there's ship traffic in this 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          channel now.  The -- it's directly across 

         2          from -- from Blount Island.  There's routine 

         3          traffic. 

         4              We've just finished a 12 million dollar 

         5          wharf for the JPA right across from here.  I 

         6          don't know how you would measure any additional 

         7          traffic in this channel. 

         8              What we intend to be is -- is good 

         9          neighbors.  I have spoken with Mrs. Craft (sic) 

        10          on occasion.  I am not prepared to buy her 

        11          property.  I can't afford it.  It's going to 

        12          take everything we can to develop this 

        13          property. 

        14              And we will protect our neighbors.  I have 

        15          a plat and a plan showing shrubbery, 

        16          landscaping in between, and we intend to 

        17          improve the property. 

        18              It's zoned IW.  We cannot do anything else 

        19          with it.

        20              Thank you.

        21              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Have I -- I have a 

        22          question.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Katherine?

        24              MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, ma'am.

        25              SECRETARY HARRIS:  If -- thank you.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              If you're -- if you're committed to 

         2          protecting your neighbors and -- but not buying 

         3          their property, would it make sense in the 

         4          lease that it would, you know, as we measure 

         5          down the road, since -- since you'll be 

         6          accruing the benefits, that, indeed, if there 

         7          is erosion, that you would attend to the 

         8          bulkheads or whatever that would help to 

         9          diminish that.

        10              MR. MITCHELL:  If you could define how you 

        11          would measure that.  You've got to realize that 

        12          there's ship -- there's ongoing ship traffic in 

        13          this channel presently. 

        14              I don't know how you would -- I don't know 

        15          if it's measured.  I'm not -- I don't know if 

        16          it's measured daily, weekly, or monthly. 

        17              If you could determine that we are a cause 

        18          of an action, then we're responsible for a 

        19          cause of an action.  But I don't know how you 

        20          would determine that in this case.

        21              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.  Thank you.

        22              Could I -- could I ask -- talk to 

        23          Secretary Struhs?

        24              Is there a way to measure erosion over 

        25          time?  I mean, it -- wouldn't there be a way to 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          measure it? 

         2              And my question, more to the point is:  Do 

         3          you have a historical measurement to know that 

         4          there has been that kind of historic erosion 

         5          because of shipping and -- and that, indeed, 

         6          this could increase, I mean, or --

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- decrease it? 

         9              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.  We -- we know that 

        10          historically there has been erosion.  The 

        11          analysis shows that going forward we'll see 

        12          accretion. 

        13              What we will commit to is -- is to go out 

        14          there and actually place some measures that can 

        15          be monitored. 

        16              We will -- we will know -- should the -- 

        17          the pace of change here is something we will 

        18          determine within a year.  Within a year, we 

        19          will know with certainty as to precisely what 

        20          the effects are going to be, either erosion or 

        21          accretion. 

        22              And we'd be happy to commit to come back to 

        23          you in that time period and -- and specifically 

        24          report to you what's happening.  And, indeed, 

        25          if there is an erosion problem, commit some 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          resources to address it.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  But would that be on the 

         3          shoulders of the State at that point, or on the 

         4          shoulders of the lessee --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's up to us.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  What -- what I would -- what I 

         7          would -- would -- I'm sorry. 

         8              What I would recommend in -- in terms of 

         9          the -- the -- the cost and the -- the 

        10          requirements to do the monitoring, that's 

        11          something that the Department would just take 

        12          on and do.

        13              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Right.  In terms of the 

        14          monitoring. 

        15              But if there are any consequence in terms 

        16          of needing to build a bulkhead or not, would 

        17          that accrue to the lessee or to the lessor? 

        18              MR. STRUHS:  That would be subject to some 

        19          negotiation.

        20              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I think -- I just think 

        21          that's an important issue to -- to discern, or 

        22          to agree to before we go forward.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General Butterworth.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Thank you, 

        25          Governor.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              David, you said it's subject to 

         2          negotiation.  Aren't you in a better position 

         3          to negotiate now than in the future? 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think that 

         6          should be negotiated before we -- maybe we take 

         7          a final vote on this.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How much -- how much does 

         9          the -- it's a good -- good question without a 

        10          need for an answer.

        11              How -- how much -- how much does a 

        12          bulkhead -- would they -- would it cost?  

        13          Anybody have an estimation? 

        14              No?

        15              Do the neighbors -- do y'all have a guess?

        16              MS. HODGES:  I have no idea, except for the 

        17          fact that it would be 450 foot of property that 

        18          would have to be bulkheaded to --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is that just your property, 

        20          ma'am, or is that everybody's?

        21              MS. HODGES:  That's everybody's.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Four hundred and fifty?

        23              MS. HODGES:  All but the property -- 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I used to know how much it 

        25          cost per foot.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MS. HODGES:  -- the -- the Hawkins property 

         2          and where we're at.

         3              MR. STRUHS:  Governor --

         4              (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)

         5              MR. STRUHS:  -- the -- this is just very 

         6          rough, but the -- the -- the current cost 

         7          approximately for doing this kind of 

         8          bulkheading work runs -- depending on the kind 

         9          of material and how strong you build it -- 

        10          between 100 and -- and $500 per foot.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So --

        12              MR. STRUHS:  And -- and I'm sorry, I don't 

        13          have handy the -- the linear dimensions here. 

        14              It's 495 feet.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Four fifty.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's 

        17          absolute minimum.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  No, actually -- we just don't 

        19          have the dimensions.  We don't -- we don't know 

        20          what the -- what the property is.

        21              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Somewhere between 

        22          forty-five and two twenty-five.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  We -- we don't have the 

        24          frontage -- river frontage of the three 

        25          property owners here.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right. 

         2              MS. KRATZ:  Four hundred and fifty foot.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  We got the size -- 

         4          we got the linear feet.  Four hundred and 

         5          fifty.

         6              So it's -- so it's 45,000 to $100,000.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Governor --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- if I -- if I may, 

        12          there has been continuous erosion there now.  

        13          If we didn't have this before us, there would 

        14          be continued erosion.

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Correct.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I mean, the 

        17          fact that this is being put in place is not 

        18          going to really change what situation exists 

        19          right now.

        20              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, it might.

        21              SECRETARY HARRIS:  It could escalate it, or 

        22          there would be accretion.

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Oh -- well, we don't 

        24          know.  We -- we don't even know what 

        25          historically -- we can guess perhaps, we can 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          look at some photographs --

         2              (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- but we'd have a 

         4          hard time, even historically, determining what 

         5          the rate of erosion is. 

         6              And -- and, frankly, there are so many 

         7          conditions that impact on this, that even one 

         8          year's time doesn't necessarily give you a good 

         9          handle. 

        10              So I -- I mean, we're -- we're really 

        11          getting in some interesting waters here, and -- 

        12          and --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So to speak.

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I think we need 

        15          to be careful.

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

        17              Governor --

        18              Secretary Struhs, it looks like, if there's 

        19          450 feet, it'd be somewhere between 45,000 and 

        20          225,000.  And, again, if we move forward -- 

        21          to -- to create the bulkhead. 

        22              If we move forward, then it -- it just -- 

        23          it's -- it -- it may even be more than that.  

        24          I mean, if you're talking in linear feet for 

        25          height and width, I don't know.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              But -- 

         2              MR. STRUHS:  That's right.

         3              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- if we're going to 

         4          move forward with this, we should be decid-- we 

         5          should decide -- attribute the kind of 

         6          responsibility in percentage, because as 

         7          General Milligan says, if there's already 

         8          erosion, how much are we escalating, how are we 

         9          not, you know, whose responsibility is -- is it 

        10          really.

        11              But I'm -- I guess I'm somewhat 

        12          concerned -- I'm supportive of -- of this 

        13          project, but I'm somewhat concerned with --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- with this piece of -- 

        16          of the lease, that it's not determined prior to 

        17          our -- our vote.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  Right. 

        19              What -- what -- what -- what I would 

        20          recommend, based on a very accommodating 

        21          applicant, Mr. Mitchell, would be to defer this 

        22          item. 

        23              Actually you've already acted on it.  We 

        24          would need to revisit it --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How do we do that?  How do 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          we undo what we did?

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Move to reconsider.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Move to 

         4          reconsider.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  And -- and what 

         6          Mr. Mitchell -- 

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion to 

         8          reconsider.

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

        11              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All in -- anybody opposed 

        13          to it? 

        14              All in favor, say aye.

        15              THE CABINET:  Aye.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

        17              Okay. 

        18              MR. STRUHS:  What we will -- what we will 

        19          do is we will bring the applicant, and these 

        20          three property owners together, and come up 

        21          with a plan so the next time you deal with this 

        22          issue, it will have been resolved.

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Thank you.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Now, let me ask a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          question -- 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Now there's a motion --

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  How much -- how 

         4          much is this -- is this a problem for the owner 

         5          who thought -- this has been deferred a couple 

         6          times already.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Well, Mr. Mitchell is here, 

         8          and you could ask him directly, although 

         9          he's -- he's indicated that he's comfortable 

        10          with this course of action.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  He can -- he can 

        12          wait another meeting? 

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And when are -- 

        15          when are you going to bring it up? 

        16              On the 26th? 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  We -- we -- we may or may not 

        18          want to do this in Panama City.  If not -- if 

        19          not, then certainly the next Cabinet meeting.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Okay.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  October.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion -- is 

        23          there a motion to defer?

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Octob-- if we could defer to 

        25          October 10, please.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motion to defer to 

         2          October 10th.

         3              Is there a second? 

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Without objection, it's -- 

         6          the motion has been deferred.

         7              Thank you very much.

         8              Thank you, sir, for your accommodation.

         9              And thank you all for coming. 

        10              It does prove that people come, they show 

        11          up, even after the thing is already approved, 

        12          that they can --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They can change 

        14          them. 

        15              Flexible.  Flexible.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Item 6.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Item 6, we're recommending 

        18          approval, subject to special lease conditions 

        19          and the payment of --

        20              (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)

        21              MR. STRUHS:  -- $7,718.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 6.

        23              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        25              Without objection, it's approved.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 7, recommending 

         2          approval, subject to special conditions and 

         3          payment of $34,483. 

         4              And I will point out that Mr. Pat Rose has 

         5          indicated an interest in speaking to this item.  

         6          Also just to -- to point out the obvious, this 

         7          proposal is in Collier County, one of those 

         8          counties that does have an approved Manatee 

         9          Protection Plan.

        10              And all the conditions and recommendations 

        11          of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation 

        12          Commission have been adopted in the proposed 

        13          permit.

        14              Oh, he had to leave?

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  He's running for office.  

        16          He's got to go out and shake hands.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Yes. 

        18              Well, Mr. Rose is not here.

        19              Does anybody else want to speak? 

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would anybody like to 

        21          speak? 

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  Well, our -- our 

        24          recommendation --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- stands.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- a motion?

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 6.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Substitute Item 8, we're 

         8          seeking --

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Was that 7?  

        10          I'm -- 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  That was 7.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Correct me.  That 

        13          was a motion on 7.

        14              MR. STRUHS:  That was 7.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's what I 

        16          thought.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Substitute Item 8, we're 

        18          seeking to withdraw that.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to 

        20          withdraw.

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        23              Without objection, it's been withdrawn.

        24              Item Number 9, if I could explain this one  

        25          in -- in a bit more detail, please.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              There's actually two items here.  One is 

         2          the Board -- seeking -- the Board of Trustees 

         3          to disclaim any State interest in 9/100 of an 

         4          acre of --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Nine?

         6              MR. STRUHS:  -- privately-owned land. 

         7              The second item would be to delegate 

         8          authority to the Secretary of the DEP, or 

         9          designee, to issue these kinds of disclaimers 

        10          in the future. 

        11              There are only about, on average, one or 

        12          two of these that occur in any given year.  

        13          And -- and the -- the issue is -- again, it's 

        14          the difference between erosion and avulsion.  

        15          Avulsion being --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Secretary of State Harris 

        17          is our ex--

        18              (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- living -- expert on this 

        20          subject.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.  I -- I recognize that.

        22              So this is actually doing two things.  

        23          And -- and if you're comfortable doing them 

        24          together, that's fine.  Or we could separate --

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'm -- I'm not --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- comfortable with 

         3          doing them together. 

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No?  Okay.

         5              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll certainly 

         6          support the first portion.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Okay.

         8              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But --

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

        10          first portion.

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- that, to be 

        12          specific, is the disclaimer on the .09 --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on that.

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I'll second.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        17              Without objection, it's approved.

        18              Now --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Now the delegation 

        20          of the rule.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Delegation of the rule.

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You know, we just 

        23          went through an interesting evolution where 

        24          people had a chance to come forward and -- and 

        25          even on a very minor -- relatively minor issue 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          in terms of amount of land involved and 

         2          so forth.  And I think it's good to keep these 

         3          things in the sunshine. 

         4              You know, we -- we're trying to move things 

         5          along certainly, and -- and cut some 

         6          bureaucracy.

         7              (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)

         8              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But at times I think 

         9          we're sacrificing one of the real beauties of 

        10          the state of Florida, and that is, getting 

        11          these issues out in the sunshine.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And giving people an 

        14          opportunity to express their views. 

        15              So I -- in the interest of retaining things 

        16          in the sunshine, not out of the sunshine, I am 

        17          opposed -- even though it's a minor issue, I'm 

        18          opposed to delegating it.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Now, I -- I'm 

        20          going to argue the other side. 

        21              And I would agree with you, General, if, 

        22          in fact, we didn't specifically say in this 

        23          delegation of authority that any applications 

        24          that are controversial or questionable would 

        25          come to us and on our agenda.  That means, if 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          some individual person has a problem with that, 

         2          we would hear it. 

         3              And these -- these minor things are -- are 

         4          really nothing more than permission to -- to 

         5          straighten something out that's usually 

         6          happened by a quick storm or something that 

         7          comes in, and gives the people a chance to go 

         8          right back and fix it, rather than wait till it 

         9          has to get agendaed on our -- on our items.

        10              So -- if it was -- if it's going to be 

        11          large, or anybody -- it's controversial or 

        12          questionable by any neighbors, then, of course, 

        13          it would have to go through the process and get 

        14          here. 

        15              But otherwise, I think DEP should be able 

        16          to go right in and -- and give the people a 

        17          chance to --

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And that --

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- to come --

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- and that's 

        21          terrific.  But we just saw an example of the 

        22          interest of moving things along rapidly.  And 

        23          we had to walk the cat back. 

        24              And, you know, there's only about one or 

        25          two --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sorry.

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- of these a year. 

         3              This is not a big deal to have them on the 

         4          agenda.  And -- and obviously if it's an 

         5          emergency, it can be done very rapidly. 

         6              So I -- it's just the problem of -- of what 

         7          are we about, doing things in the sunshine, or 

         8          not doing things in the sunshine?  And this is 

         9          just another example.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I --

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner.

        12              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- Governor, I 

        13          just -- I agree with Commissioner Gallagher.  

        14          I think it's -- it's not really a sunshine 

        15          issue.  It's really --

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  This -- this 

        17          particular issue is not.  It's the --

        18              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.

        19              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- principle I'm 

        20          talking about.

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah.  And it's a 

        22          valid principle.  And I support -- I support 

        23          your concept. 

        24              A good question, I guess, where you draw 

        25          the line.  And we can do -- differ on that. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              But for the sake of efficiency, I would 

         2          draw the line here, and -- and say, this is 

         3          something reasonable to del-- to delegate.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

         5              Yes, General Butterworth.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  In my few 

         7          years here on -- on the Cabinet, and especially 

         8          Board of Trustees, these items usually take 

         9          such a short period of time, that really I just 

        10          think it's in the best interest when we're 

        11          talking about the lands of the state of 

        12          Florida, and we sit as the Board of Trustees of 

        13          those lands, it's -- it's best to do it in the 

        14          open. 

        15              I think it -- it makes us really look much 

        16          better.  And -- and many times somebody might 

        17          not even get notification and just find 

        18          something that affects them already happening.

        19              So even though the words are in there, 

        20          controversial or questionable, I don't know who 

        21          determines whether or not it's controversial or 

        22          questionable, but I think it's -- it's just 

        23          best -- I agree with -- with General Milligan, 

        24          it's best to do it right here.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Let me just -- I'm 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          not worried about the time it takes here.  

         2          That's certainly not the thing. 

         3              But when did -- let's just use an example.  

         4          The -- the avulsion of property on Little Palm 

         5          Island, when did they first come to us and 

         6          apply for this? 

         7              MR. GOODWYNE:  In '96.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  In '96?

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  In '96?

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, how's that 

        11          for an example of why --

        12              MR. GOODWYNE:  That was not the Board of 

        13          Trustees' fault.  It was -- it was the 

        14          applicant surveyor. 

        15              It took years to get the survey right, and 

        16          I dealt with it on a day -- you know, weekly 

        17          basis. 

        18              I think once the survey was right --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Come on up if you're going 

        20          to speak.

        21              Welcome.

        22              MR. GOODWYNE:  Thank you.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who are you? 

        24              MR. GOODWYNE:  My name's Owen Goodwyne, and 

        25          I practice law in Tallahassee with 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          Bill Roberts' law firm.

         2              The storm occurred in March of '93.  The 

         3          applicant hired a hydrographic engineer that 

         4          didn't know anything about avulsion or 

         5          disclaimers. 

         6              And it bumbled around a little while, a 

         7          year or so trying to get permits.  And then 

         8          they came to us and we realized we needed to 

         9          get an avulsion disclaimer.  So that 

        10          application was filed I think somewhere in '95 

        11          or early '96.

        12              And I would say it took -- well, almost 

        13          four years to get the survey right.  And I -- 

        14          I think that the -- the State asked for a lot 

        15          of things on the survey, like, you know, lineal 

        16          feet -- lineal feet of riprap and whatever.  

        17          But it was information that could have been put 

        18          there.

        19              And I can say that once our survey was 

        20          correct, the Board of Trustees -- or the 

        21          Department of Environmental Protection moved 

        22          with it quickly, and it came before you. 

        23              So I would have to say that it was more the 

        24          applicant's failure to be able to produce what 

        25          was asked than it was the State's fault, or the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          delay.

         2              It came quick after we got that survey.  

         3          I'd say within three months we were here.

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Secretary --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Three months.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, yeah, 

         7          three months sounds real quick when you started 

         8          in 1996.  But if somebody got a storm hit -- 

         9          if -- 

        10              MR. GOODWYNE:  Like I say --

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- if somebody had 

        12          a storm him them --

        13              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I agree.

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- this summer, 

        15          and they'd like to fix it right away, you know, 

        16          three months is --

        17              MR. GOODWYNE:  Well, they --

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- a long time.

        19              MR. GOODWYNE:  -- they need to hire a good 

        20          surveyor that gets right on it.  And it -- 

        21          that's hard to find sometimes in the Keys.  

        22          When this person's done all your surveys for 

        23          year after year, and you don't want to go 

        24          somewhere else, but he just doesn't have time 

        25          to do it, and -- it just got strung out a long 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          time.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Secretary Struhs, on an 

         3          aside, is there something we can do on your 

         4          website that would help to expedite the process 

         5          just in terms of information or linkages to 

         6          surveyors, avulsion experts, any of those kinds 

         7          of things so that somebody doesn't have to wait 

         8          from a storm in '91 -- or '93 to get to 2000? 

         9              MR. STRUHS:  I -- I suspect there's 

        10          probably something we could do.  Although 

        11          I'm -- I'm hesitant to commit to any particular 

        12          course of action here.  I just don't know how 

        13          we would -- how we would make it work.  But 

        14          I'm --

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Just in terms of 

        16          improving access to information.  And it's 

        17          just -- that seems outrageous, that it could 

        18          take seven years in the process. 

        19              But --

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion? 

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I -- yes, I have one 

        23          more thing. 

        24              Sorry, Governor.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, Katherine.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  In terms -- these issues 

         2          you said -- you said you only -- how many a 

         3          year do you have that come before you? 

         4              MR. STRUHS:  One -- one or two.

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  One or two a year? 

         6              Split the baby.  I mean, one or two a year, 

         7          it's not that difficult, three months.  On the 

         8          other hand, they're trying to expedite their 

         9          issues.  It's not something that's coming 

        10          before you that's controversial that you're 

        11          making a decision if you can -- assist the 

        12          public --

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- in a -- in a -- in a 

        15          much more efficient manner.

        16              MR. STRUHS:  Clearly you're right.  I mean, 

        17          we -- we don't have any strong feelings about 

        18          this.  We were just proposing it really as a 

        19          means of improving convenience for the 

        20          applicant.  But --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tell you what, David. 

        22              I -- I appreciate Commissioner Crawford, 

        23          and Commissioner Gallagher's position on this 

        24          because we -- because we are trying to make 

        25          government more efficient. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              But why don't we do this:  Why don't we 

         2          defer this so that you can actually talk to the 

         3          Cabinet members and develop a plan that 

         4          protects the people's right to access the 

         5          Cabinet, and also protects property owners' 

         6          right for efficiency? 

         7              (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.) 

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I mean, it is unfair to 

         9          keep people waiting when they have -- when they 

        10          have certain problems.  But there's enough 

        11          discussion about this that I think it's 

        12          appropriate to -- to vent it further with -- 

        13          with each member of the Cabinet.

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'll move to 

        15          defer.

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion to defer 

        19          and a second.

        20              Without objection, approved.

        21              Thank you.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Thank you.

        23              Substitute Item Number 10, we're seeking a 

        24          deferral so we can actually have -- have that 

        25          on the agenda for the Panama City --

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 10, 

         2          defer.

         3              MR. STRUHS:  -- Cabinet meeting.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's deferred. 

         7              We're going to have a great Cabinet meeting 

         8          on -- on --

         9              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Make --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We've gone from --

        11              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- it reservations.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- just doing resolutions, 

        13          actually we're going to have a couple of 

        14          food fights it looks like.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  It's going to be a long 

        16          one, too.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know.  Going to make 

        18          adjustments to the lunch.

        19              MR. STRUHS:  On Item 11, we're recommending 

        20          approval of a purchase agreement for one 

        21          thousand three hundred and twelve-and-a-half 

        22          acres in the Etoniah Cross Florida Greenway 

        23          CARL Project.

        24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         2              Without objection, it's approved.

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Could I ask a 

         4          question, please, Governor.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, sir.

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  The -- I know that 

         7          we are moving slowly, but eventually, to 

         8          eliminating the Rodman Reservoir. 

         9              Is that correct? 

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

        11              MR. STRUHS:  That -- that is our position, 

        12          yes.

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.

        14              If we -- if we didn't have the reservoir --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- and we were 

        17          trying to do this Cross Florida Greenway, would 

        18          we be buying this piece of property? 

        19              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.  The answer is -- is -- 

        20          is clearly yes for a variety of reasons.  

        21          Clearly it's in the State's interest based on 

        22          previous court determinations to settle these 

        23          cases in inverse condemnation, rather than 

        24          taking them through litigation. 

        25              There's clearly an issue here of trespass, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          given the fact that the Federal deauthorization 

         2          of the project back in 1991 allowed for the 

         3          expiration of those easements. 

         4              So it's -- essentially the State has been 

         5          trespassing --

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So we're -- we're 

         7          kind of in a catch-22.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And we don't --

        10              MR. STRUHS:  I wouldn't --

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- really have any 

        12          choice.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  We -- we -- we really don't.  

        14          And this is -- is -- is the most prudent from a 

        15          fiscal point of view.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Beyond that, it is also a part 

        18          of the previously approved CARL project for 

        19          the -- for the Greenway.  So it's something 

        20          that we would be seeking --

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, no.  And I -- 

        22          and I appreciate that.  But that -- that -- the 

        23          Greenway was driven, to some degree, in its 

        24          design by the existence of the reservoir.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Correct.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And so my question 

         2          really was:  You know, would we be doing this 

         3          in the greenway sense, if the reservoir wasn't 

         4          there. 

         5              But we're really driven on a catch-22 basis 

         6          here to --

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Right.  I -- I think the 

         8          answer is -- is probably yes -- in fact, it is 

         9          yes to both of your questions.

        10              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Yes to the --

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  -- mitigation strategy and -- 

        14          and also for the acquisition strategy.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

        16              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 12, we have 

        17          Mr. John Carnaghi here from Florida State 

        18          University and Mr. Andy Miller from the 

        19          Seminole Boosters who would like to speak to 

        20          it. 

        21              We're recommending approval of this item, 

        22          which is two purchase agreements to acquire 

        23          1.73 acres for the benefit of the Florida 

        24          Board of Regents and Florida State University.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'll move the item 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          so we can discuss it.

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         4              Welcome. 

         5              MR. CARNAGHI:  Good morning.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good morning.

         7              MR. CARNAGHI:  If I may -- and I do promise 

         8          to be brief -- I think I have to give you a 

         9          little background, because this goes back to 

        10          trying to -- our desire to comply with Title 9 

        11          requests, as well as NCAA certification 

        12          requirements, and certainly to meet the needs 

        13          of our female student athletes.

        14              With the improvements that you're aware of 

        15          at University Center, which revolves around our 

        16          football program, we can no longer just 

        17          promise.

        18              (Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.) 

        19              MR. CARNAGHI:  We needed to deliver in 

        20          terms of women's programs. 

        21              Thus we made the women's soccer/softball 

        22          project a campus priority, and assembled the 

        23          student leadership and the Booster organization 

        24          to help us.

        25              Our campus Master Plans show that the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          existing intramural fields were the most 

         2          efficient place for us to locate a women's 

         3          soccer/softball complex. 

         4              But it lead us to another problem, and that 

         5          was, we needed to relocate the thousands of 

         6          on-campus students who participated in 

         7          intramural programs who were using these 

         8          fields.

         9              Again, turning to our campus Master Plan, 

        10          it was proposed that we convert an old cement 

        11          plant site that we owned to the new intramural 

        12          fields.  And certainly the students 

        13          enthusiastically endorsed this.  And if you've 

        14          been by our campus at Woodward and Gaines, you 

        15          can see we have an outstanding intramural 

        16          complex. 

        17              But there was a problem:  One-fourth of 

        18          that property was being used to house the 

        19          library processing facility, a unit that's 

        20          critical to our library services on campus.

        21              So while the students were willing to 

        22          invest some of the CITF money they have into 

        23          the new intramural complex itself, we needed a 

        24          way to fund the acquiring of land --

        25              (Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. CARNAGHI:  -- the construction of a new 

         2          library processing facility. 

         3              And what we did was choose a -- a blended 

         4          funding approach, with both using the Boosters, 

         5          as well as the PECO funding. 

         6              And so this project was put both on our 

         7          PECO list, and in the appropriations bill for 

         8          authorization by the Boosters to participate in 

         9          this project.

        10              And we were encouraged to proceed even 

        11          after the Governor vetoed the PECO request that 

        12          it wasn't a priority, and we did so, with the 

        13          Boosters assuming --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who -- who encouraged you 

        15          to proceed?

        16              MR. CARNAGHI:  Pardon? 

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who enc-- out of curiosity,  

        18          who encouraged you to proceed?

        19              MR. CARNAGHI:  Board of Regents, as well as 

        20          members of the Governor's staff.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, after I vetoed it? 

        22              MR. CARHAGHI:  It just -- it just -- it 

        23          just wasn't a priority.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Insurrection in the ranks.

        25              MR. CARNAGHI:  It -- it was a good project, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          but not a priority.

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  No names, please.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'll talk to you later.

         4              MR. CARNAGHI:  But we did proceed.

         5              (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 

         6          room.) 

         7              MR. CARNAGHI:  We -- we asked the Boosters 

         8          to assume the full financial costs, with the 

         9          understanding that we would someday purchase 

        10          this facility, because it doesn't make a whole 

        11          lot of sense for the Boosters to own a library 

        12          processing facility.

        13              We now have an effective library processing 

        14          plant that employs, in fact, these very -- 

        15          faculty very much appreciate.  We have 

        16          excellent facilities for both our women's 

        17          intercollegiate, as well as our students 

        18          intramural programs.  In this regard, this was 

        19          truly the most successful solution to our 

        20          problem.

        21              That's -- that's it.

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I've got a quick 

        23          question, if I may, Governor.

        24              The original scheme then was for -- and -- 

        25          and that's my term, scheme, not yours.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              The original -- 

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It was a scheme.

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- scheme was to -- 

         4          for the University to purchase the land.

         5              MR. CARNAGHI:  Eventually, yes, sir.

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And then the 

         7          Boosters would build a facility on that land.  

         8          I mean, I say that because --

         9              MR. CARNAGHI:  We were -- we were under 

        10          the -- it was a time-sensitive project.  So 

        11          we -- we actually wanted the Boosters to 

        12          purchase the land and build it, yes.

        13              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  As I -- I'm, 

        14          you know, reading some correspondence, 

        15          for example, this letter from Adam Herbert in 

        16          January '98 says this project will be added.  

        17          And -- let's see. 

        18              Any subsequent lease between the 

        19          Seminole Boosters -- this now for the facility, 

        20          not for the land -- any subsequent lease 

        21          between the Seminole Boosters and the 

        22          University for the use of the facility.

        23              (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 

        24          room.)

        25              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I get the impression 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          that the idea was that the University would own 

         2          the land, the Boosters would build the 

         3          facility, and would lease it back to the 

         4          University.  That was not the scheme.

         5              MR. CARNAGHI:  No, sir.

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Despite what it says 

         7          here in this letter.

         8              MR. CARNAGHI:  Well, it was actually 

         9          intended to be a lease of the entire project, 

        10          the land and the building.  And I think that 

        11          letter -- I don't have it before me -- goes on 

        12          to say, at such time, the State will then 

        13          purchase the --

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Land.

        15              MR. CARNAGHI:  It was intended to be land 

        16          and facility. 

        17              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.

        18              MR. CARHAGHI:  Again, for the obvious, the 

        19          Boosters have no need for a library processing 

        20          plant.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Did you guys make any 

        22          profit on this? 

        23              MR. CARNAGHI:  Profit?

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You bought the land, you 

        25          built the building, you're selling it --

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. CARHAGHI:  The --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- to us for the same 

         3          amount that you put into it?

         4              MR. CARNAGHI:  The fact is, the Boosters 

         5          are assuming about a $60,000 loss.  We had it 

         6          appraised, and we're paying the appraised 

         7          value.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Would you have built 

        10          a similar facility if you built it yourself? 

        11              MR. CARNAGHI:  Yes, sir.

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You would have built 

        13          an identical facility.

        14              MR. CARNAGHI:  Yes, sir.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay.  This is not a 

        16          gold watch facility? 

        17              MR. CARNAGHI:  No, sir.  It's a --

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Not a Cadillac when 

        19          we needed a --

        20              MR. CARHAGHI:  It's --

        21              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- Ranger pickup?

        22              MR. CARHAGHI:  -- it's -- it's a Butler 

        23          building that has a little brick on the front 

        24          to make it look nice.  But it's a very 

        25          effective library processing plant.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Just -- I mean, 

         2          so -- the way I see it, there was a -- a letter 

         3          to Charlie Reed, I guess they -- in January, a 

         4          very short time before the -- the letter from 

         5          Adam Herbert, so I guess they sort of 

         6          crisscrossed a little bit.

         7              But what the end of that letter says that 

         8          came from Sandy D'Alemberte was that the 

         9          Boosters have the funds from the private sector 

        10          that are available then for the purchase.  And 

        11          upon completion, these facilities would be 

        12          leased by the University until they could be 

        13          acquired by the State. 

        14              So they always had --

        15              MR. CARNAGHI:  Right.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the plan was 

        17          let them build it, expedite how fast it would 

        18          get built, the State buys it when they can.

        19              MR. CARNAGHI:  Yes.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And -- and I vetoed exactly 

        21          this -- I vetoed a line item in the budget that 

        22          was -- that went around the PECO process or 

        23          something? 

        24              MR. CARNAGHI:  No, sir.  This was vetoed by 

        25          the former Governor.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Section -- but --

         2              MR. CARNAGHI:  This project -- this 

         3          project, I believe, was vetoed in '98 -- 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh.  Good.

         5              MR. CARNAGHI:  -- by Governor Chiles.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Oh.  You 

         7          thought -- 

         8              MR. CARNAGHI:  I'm sorry.  I didn't mention 

         9          which Governor. 

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Vetoed --

        11              MR. CARHAGHI:  The Governor vetoed --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Vetoed by a Gator.

        13              MR. CARNAGHI:  Not you, sir.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Move the project.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I feel better now.

        16              MR. CARNAGHI:  Sorry.  Wrong Governor.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion? 

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Seems to be a kind 

        19          of a shaky way of doing business.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, there was 

        21          a -- I -- you know, this was a -- an authorized 

        22          by the Legislature function that you see --

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, wonderful.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Doesn't -- 

        25          you know --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's not the problem.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm not sure it's 

         3          the best way to do things.  I'll have to --

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're losing -- 

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- say.  But --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a ringing 

         7          endorsement apparently.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, the -- like 

         9          it or not, they still set the policy on how 

        10          things can or can't be done.  And --

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  They do.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- and House --

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Well, you're 

        14          a former Legislator --

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- 4201 -- 

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just to -- to make 

        17          sure the record is clear, they authorized the 

        18          Boosters to do this, they didn't say the State 

        19          should buy it.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, my concern is -- is 

        21          if this was part of some planning process that 

        22          this was a priority in our capital outlay 

        23          dollars being spent.  And it looks like --

        24              MR. CARNAGHI:  Well, it certainly was 

        25          with --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  This is a different way.

         2              MR. CARHAGHI:  -- the University, and it 

         3          was with the Board of Regents, and it was with 

         4          the Legislature, and the Governor chose not to 

         5          fund it, but encouraged us to do the project 

         6          because we -- we had problems to deal with.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The normal way of doing 

         8          this though, wouldn't it be to go through the 

         9          PECO process? 

        10              MR. CARNAGHI:  Yes, sir.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Definitely.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's my point.

        13              MR. CARNAGHI:  Yes, sir.  And we did.  That 

        14          was blended.  We went --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Part of it.

        16              MR. CARNAGHI:  -- both -- yes, sir.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  So you're half --

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Some years when 

        19          there's less money in PECO, and more projects 

        20          that need to be done, I guess we found that the 

        21          universities have --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I was told by some Seminole 

        23          supporters that -- in -- in defense -- 

        24          passionate defense of this project that the 

        25          University of Florida's Booster Club does this 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          regularly. 

         2              Is that true? 

         3              MR. CARHAGHI:  I --

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I've not seen it as a --

         5              MR. CARNAGHI:  I don't know.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But I'm new to the job.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I sure wouldn't be 

         8          surprised.

         9              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, I think -- I 

        10          would think they do. 

        11              But I think it's -- it's like the 

        12          Nature Conservancy that advance purchases land 

        13          that we don't have the money for, ties it up, 

        14          makes it a good deal for the State. 

        15              And I think the same thing here, they were 

        16          able to move forward at the expansion of 

        17          women's athletics, which is important. 

        18              And so I think the Boosters really did a 

        19          favor to the State, take a little bit of loss. 

        20              So I -- I think it's -- all in all, it's a 

        21          good project.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Well, 

        24          Governor, just for the record, the -- the 

        25          Gator Boosters also purchased an airplane, and 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          the airplane is bigger than yours.

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But -- but the F-- 

         3          FDLE just confiscated a Leer jet we have our 

         4          eyes on.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Exactly.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And that is a 

         7          good -- we ought to have a discussion about 

         8          whether we ought to keep that for the State's 

         9          use or not.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Is there any doubt? 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Next meeting maybe in 

        12          Panama City. 

        13              Any other -- any more discussion?

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Lucy finally got 

        15          something.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You totally lost me.

        17              There's been a motion and a second.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yes.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Without objection, it's 

        20          approved.

        21              Boy, something in the water today.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Thanks, John.

        23              MR. CARNAGHI:  Sure.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for tolerating 

        25          our meeting today.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              Item 13.

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Are you sure 

         3          you want to take us on the road, Governor?

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We'll be better behaved.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  Recommending approval of 

         6          Item Number 13.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        12              Without objection, it's approved.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  I would point out, we're real 

        14          pleased with the fact we were able to do that 

        15          at 81 percent of the appraised value.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good work, David.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 14, recommending 

        18          approval of that.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 14.

        20              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        23              Without objection, it's approved.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 15, recommending 

        25          approval.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 15.

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         4              Without objection.

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor, I would just 

         6          like to comment.

         7              This seems like -- or ask the question of 

         8          Secretary Struhs --

         9              (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)

        10              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- how you were able to 

        11          do such a good negotiation on -- on that 

        12          purchase price looking at the two -- two 

        13          appraisals on Item 15.

        14              MR. STRUHS:  On Item 15? 

        15              Yes. 

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That seems like we're 

        17          going in the right direction.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.  I think -- actually one 

        19          of the things that -- I don't know what kind of 

        20          paper you have in front of you.  But what 

        21          they've done for me is -- is on every one of 

        22          these items show the percentage of appraised 

        23          value.  So it's -- it's easier to keep a 

        24          running score. 

        25              But -- but a lot of them are coming in at 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          under 100.  In fact, most of them are.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  What percentage was that 

         3          one? 

         4              MR. STRUHS:  This -- I'm sorry.  This -- 

         5          Item 15? 

         6              Well, 99.  Ninety-nine --

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  It says --

         8              MR. STRUHS:  -- point seven.

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- it says in my notes 

        10          here, the purchase price was four 

        11          seventy-three, when you had appraisal at 

        12          675,000 and 660,000.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Right. 

        14              Well, what I could -- what I could do for 

        15          the -- 

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  It was just a comment.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That's fine.  It -- just 

        19          appreciate that you're moving in that 

        20          direction.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  What we can do for the 

        22          Cabinet, and -- and I'm sorry we haven't done 

        23          it sooner, is -- is on your briefings, actually 

        24          show percentage of a --

        25              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That's great.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- appraised value so you're 

         2          aware of that. 

         3              Thank you for raising it.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         5              Without objection, it's approved.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 16, we're 

         7          recommending approval of this item.  

         8          Mr. Greg Rivers from IFAS is available if you 

         9          have any questions.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 16.

        11              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        13              Without objection, it's approved.

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Comment, Governor.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  Yeah.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just to follow up on 

        17          the Secretary of State's comment, what we do on 

        18          staying below the appraisal. 

        19              There's another way of solving the problem, 

        20          too, and that's to increase the appraisal.  And 

        21          I note that the appraisal on this piece of 

        22          property doubled in -- in three years. 

        23              The original appraisal in 1997 was 200,000.  

        24          And now it's up over 400,000.

        25              So there's more than one way of skinning 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          the cat is what I'm --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Early.

         3              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  We'll see who's 

         4          getting skinned.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  I'm sorry.  General, were you 

         6          talking about Item 15 or 16? 

         7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I was talking about 

         8          Item 16.

         9              MR. STRUHS:  Sixteen.  All right.

        10              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  These are the same 

        11          people, by the way, that we sold that property 

        12          for very cheaply not too long ago on Highway 27 

        13          and -- and the Turnpike. 

        14              We sell cheap and buy high, I guess.  Same 

        15          philosophy.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, you know, 

        17          it's interesting because we were trying to buy 

        18          it from the City, and they felt that the 

        19          changing market conditions were not reflected 

        20          in the offer.  So basically they thought it was 

        21          too high then -- or too low.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Too low.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Whatever.

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just an observation.  

        25          That's all.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, General.

         2              What item are we on? 

         3              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Sixteen. 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sixteen? 

         5              Has there been a motion and a second?

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yes.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yes.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And without objection, it's 

         9          approved.

        10              Thank you.

        11              Item 17.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 17, we're 

        13          recommending approval of this item.  And the 

        14          Chairman of the Brevard County Commission, 

        15          Nancy Higgs is here.  Also Mr. Keith Fountain 

        16          of the Nature Conservancy. 

        17              If -- if it would be useful to the members, 

        18          I can give you a brief historical synopsis of 

        19          this item, or -- or not, whatever your pleasure 

        20          is.

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I would move the 

        22          item.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I need to make 

        25          a comment, Governor.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              We -- we're going to have a discussion --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- let people 

         4          talk --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.  We're going to have 

         6          discussion on this one.

         7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm with you.

         9              MR. STRUHS:  Let -- let me -- let me begin, 

        10          if I -- if I -- if I might, please, with giving 

        11          you sort of a -- a historical rendition of how 

        12          we got to where we are.  And then -- and invite 

        13          Chairman Higgs to come forward.

        14              Back in 1995, Brevard County accepted a -- 

        15          as -- as a donation, a one-half undivided 

        16          interest in this island property.  

        17          Mr. John Downey, a private citizen, held the 

        18          other one-half undivided interest. 

        19              In 1997, Mr. Downey asserted his intentions 

        20          to partition that property, and went to court 

        21          to come up with an equitable partition.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Partition or plat -- 

        23          what -- what do you mean by "partition?" 

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Because Brevard County was 

        25          given a undivided one-half interest --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

         2              MR. STRUHS:  -- in this property --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I got you.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  And -- and -- and when the 

         5          other party wanted to separate out, they went 

         6          to court to seek what -- what would be an 

         7          equitable partition. 

         8              At that point, Brevard County entered into 

         9          mediation discussions with Mr. Downey.  The 

        10          result was a negotiated acquisition price of 

        11          one million eight hundred and fifty thousand 

        12          dollars.  For that amount, Brevard County would 

        13          acquire the -- the second half from Mr. Downey.

        14              At that point, the County, Brevard County 

        15          approached the Board of Trustees, brought to 

        16          our attention that this acquisition is about 

        17          one part of a larger, on-going, bargain shared 

        18          CARL project, and that at this -- and, 

        19          of course, in those instances, we're seeking a 

        20          50/50 match with local and State funds.  And he 

        21          pointed out that, at that point, that the State 

        22          had not yet contributed. 

        23              The Division of State Lands proceeded with 

        24          that, and secured an appraisal of the entire 

        25          parcel, both -- both halves, the full 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          182 acres.

         2              The appraisal came in at one million five 

         3          hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars, 

         4          which would give to the State, through the 

         5          Board of Trustees, a 100 percent interest in 

         6          all of that acreage. 

         7              This clearly raises the issue of -- of the 

         8          difference between the one million five hundred 

         9          and seventy-five thousand dollars that the 

        10          State would pay to acquire the 100 percent 

        11          interest, and the one million eight hundred and 

        12          fifty thousand dollars for which Brevard County 

        13          would acquire the land from Mr. Downey -- or 

        14          has acquired the land from Mr. Downey. 

        15              Indeed, the -- the way this has worked out 

        16          is, if it's approved, the Board of Trustees 

        17          would take the title for the lower figure, for 

        18          the appraised value, and Brevard County would 

        19          pay the difference, which is --

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Three hundred and 

        21          something --

        22              MR. STRUHS:  -- $285,000 to Mr. Downey.

        23              So thank you for giving me the chance to 

        24          make that statement.

        25              And then Chairman Higgs is -- is available 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          to speak to us.

         2              Thank you.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon.  Or good 

         4          morning still.

         5              MS. HIGGS:  Good morning.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are your County Commission 

         7          meetings as -- as interesting as our Cabinet 

         8          meetings? 

         9              MS. HIGGS:  Absolutely.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Great. 

        11              We'll come down and visit.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm sure they are.

        13              MS. HIGGS:  I -- I felt right at home, and 

        14          glad you were up there, and I was down here. 

        15              I'd be happy to respond to questions, 

        16          Governor, or to anyone on the Cabinet who would 

        17          like to ask questions. 

        18              I think the questions that are -- are most 

        19          relevant to you all are in regard to price.  

        20          We -- and if I might just explain very briefly. 

        21              As Secretary Struhs stated, the 

        22          Brevard County Commission, pursuant to 

        23          settlement of the litigation involving the 

        24          petition, is interested in acquiring the parcel 

        25          at 1.8. 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              The State -- that -- that price that we are 

         2          acquiring represents one-half of the average of 

         3          the appraisals.  So it is less than the average 

         4          of the appraisals that we had pursuant to that 

         5          litigation.

         6              So the -- the --

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's less than? 

         8              MS. HIGGS:  The --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But higher -- but higher 

        10          than our appraisal, I guess.

        11              MS. HIGGS:  That's correct. 

        12              Involved in the litigation, settlement 

        13          negotiations, appraisals were obtained.  And 

        14          the 1.8 represents less than half the average 

        15          of the appraisals that were attained in that 

        16          process.

        17              The appraisal you have is the 1.57.  And 

        18          that is the price at which we would sell the 

        19          entire parcel to you all.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have one 

        21          question, Governor.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I -- I 

        24          don't -- Commissioner, you're saying that -- 

        25          that the 1.8 is less than one-half the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          appraisal, which means that the appraisal was 

         2          more than 3.6 million? 

         3              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.

         4              MS. HIGGS:  Yes, sir.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And our -- 

         6          and our appraisal, David, for the whole thing 

         7          is 1.5? 

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Wow.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, did -- was 

        11          there a use allowed on this -- on these islands 

        12          that was looked at included in it when the -- 

        13          the other appraisal was done?  I mean, the 

        14          developable --

        15              MS. HIGGS:  The appraisals were based on 

        16          similar assumptions in directions to the 

        17          appraisers.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Does this property have any 

        19          development rights on it?

        20              MS. HIGGS:  I'm sorry?

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there any development -- 

        22          underlying development rights to this property?

        23              MS. HIGGS:  Yes, there are development 

        24          rights to it.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  What -- and they were -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          they -- when did they -- when did the owner of 

         2          the property get those development rights? 

         3              MS. HIGGS:  The -- there is a zoning on the 

         4          property that would allow development on the 

         5          property.  So those development --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  When did that --

         7              MS. HIGGS:  -- rights --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- when did that take pl-- 

         9          was that a long time ago, was that -- 

        10              MS. HIGGS:  Oh, yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So the -- so the -- the -- 

        12          the owner purchased this property with 

        13          development rights in hand.

        14              MS. HIGGS:  The owners -- the original 

        15          owners, of which Mr. Downey was one, purchased 

        16          the properties many years ago.  And they 

        17          originally had proposed that a large 

        18          development -- currently the zoning on the 

        19          property would allow approximately 17 to 

        20          18 units, depending on the acreage and --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The reason I ask that is we 

        22          had a case where -- in -- as I recall, it was 

        23          Pinellas County where we were the basic -- 

        24          I mean, the way I read it, I'm not sure 

        25          everybody agreed with me, we were bailing out 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          the County Commission for granting development 

         2          rights, and then increasing the value because 

         3          of that, and then we came in and bought the 

         4          property at that higher price, which was -- 

         5          it -- you're not -- you're not doing that here.

         6              MS. HIGGS:  No, sir, we're not.  The -- the 

         7          process that has occurred over the many years 

         8          that the discussions occurred about the islands 

         9          have -- there's actually been a -- a decrease 

        10          in the zoning from what would be a GU, a 

        11          general use, to an environmental, which went to 

        12          one to ten units per acre.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The -- when this 

        14          original appraisal was done at the -- the 

        15          appraisals were based on the critical 

        16          assumption that building permits could be 

        17          obtained to develop at least 18 residential 

        18          home sites --

        19              MS. HIGGS:  Yes, sir.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- on these 

        21          islands.  So that's a big difference from not 

        22          being able to develop them at all.

        23              MS. HIGGS:  Well, not --

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Oh, no.  That's not 

        25          right.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- appraisal was based 

         2          on that as well. 

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Ours is still on 

         4          the 18?

         5              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Absolutely.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's the 

         7          same way.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        10              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- could -- 

        11          Commissioner, could you explain the difference 

        12          in why your appraisal would come in more than 

        13          twice as much as -- as ours? 

        14              Do you know --

        15              MS. HIGGS:  If I were able to tell you what 

        16          goes on in all of the appraisals on islands in 

        17          the state of Florida, I would probably be in a 

        18          different position than I am today.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  It's amazing.

        20              MS. HIGGS:  It -- the -- the appraisals 

        21          that -- that we have seen on islands vary 

        22          considerably.  And perhaps your staff could 

        23          speak to -- and State lands could speak to that 

        24          variance better than I.  I'm certainly not an 

        25          expert on that.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              But, Secretary Harris, those -- those 

         2          values vary considerably throughout the state.  

         3          And even on the east coast of Florida, not too 

         4          far south of here, there's considerable 

         5          discussion on some islands that I think you all 

         6          have been involved with on Lost Tree, and those 

         7          appraisals -- you have similar kinds of issues.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes, Commissioner, I've 

         9          never seen one come in twice as much as -- ones  

        10          that come in twice as much as another though.  

        11          That's just really interesting.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  David, can you explain the 

        13          difference, not that the -- that islands have 

        14          different valuations, because that's -- that's 

        15          very accurate, I'm sure.  But the difference 

        16          between the valuation of two appraisals that we 

        17          had, and the appraisal of the County on this 

        18          island. 

        19              That -- that's the question.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        21              I'm going to ask that Mr. Keith Fountain, 

        22          who actually was intimately involved in this 

        23          from the Nature Conservancy, speak to these 

        24          issues, if -- if that's all right.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If he can answer the 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          question about appraisals, that'd be great.

         2              That's my question.

         3              MR. STRUHS:  Specifically as it relates to 

         4          this island, the State of Florida, as a 

         5          government, was not involved at all in the 

         6          discussions, the mediation, between the two --

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I understand that.  But 

         8          the -- 

         9              MR. STRUHS:  -- shareholders.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- we have two appraisals 

        11          that I see here, Mr. Boyle and Mr. Rex, at 

        12          one three and one five. 

        13              And what we're saying is -- I mean, the --

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Three six.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the County's was what?

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Three six.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Three six.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  At least we're on 

        19          the low end of it.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  But we're -- we're 

        21          paying on the --

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Usually we're --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- high end though.

        24              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the other way 

        25          around.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  We're paying high 

         2          end.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're paying on the 

         4          high end, and we're appraising on the low end.  

         5          I'd just like an explanation of why it is.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Well, Governor, actually 

         7          Mr. Fountain can do that better than I. 

         8              But the -- the County in -- in negotiating 

         9          with Mr. Downey to acquire the other half 

        10          interest in the 182 acres got a number of 

        11          appraisals, some that I think were in excess of 

        12          6 million dollars. 

        13              That was a discussion, negotiation, between 

        14          two half-shareholders to determine how the 

        15          County could take over --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I understand.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  -- full interest.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm asking a simple 

        19          question about why our appraisals would be 

        20          half, as I understand it, of what the -- what 

        21          the County's appraisals are. 

        22              Is that correct? 

        23              MR. STRUHS:  Correct.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And we're paying --

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Less than.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- full price.  It's just a 

         2          basic question, that if we can answer that 

         3          accurately, we might be able to go have lunch. 

         4              It's a --

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- simple question.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- I have a question on 

         8          that, too. 

         9              And that is:  If you were acquiring an 

        10          undivided interest, and you were -- it might 

        11          have more to do if this -- if the entire 

        12          property was valued at 6 million, and half of 

        13          it was donated previously in 1995, what was the 

        14          value of that donation? 

        15              I mean, if the donation was -- you know, 

        16          3 million, I mean, it's just interesting how 

        17          these -- all these eval-- how these valuations 

        18          occur. 

        19              What it was accounted for -- what -- 

        20          you know, to what -- what that donation was 

        21          attributed at I guess would be the question.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  I'm sorry if I'm not being 

        23          clear.  But -- but the -- the proposal that 

        24          came to the State, as part of this CARL 

        25          project, was to acquire it.  And the Division 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          of State Lands typically goes out, gets two 

         2          appraisals, and then we follow the rules, and 

         3          we -- we -- we take the highest approved 

         4          value --

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Tell you what, if you 

         6          could just answer the Governor's question, 

         7          or -- or have whomever can, that'd be great.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Maybe I don't understand the 

         9          question, sir.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Maybe somebody else 

        11          could answer the appraisal that --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you answer the 

        13          question?

        14              Please come in.  Do it.  It'd be great.

        15              MR. STEELE:  Governor, honorable members of 

        16          the Cabinet, it's a simple answer in that --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Why don't you just for the 

        18          record say who you are.

        19              MR. STEELE:  My name is Jason Steele.  I am 

        20          the broker for Mr. and Mrs. -- Mr. Downey. 

        21              There was two -- two sets of instructions 

        22          given to the appraisers.  The appraisers that 

        23          did the original appraisals for the County were 

        24          given the instructions that they were, in fact, 

        25          developable islands, which they are developable 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          islands.

         2              The instructions --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Bas--

         4              MR. STEELE:  Yes, sir?

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Based on --

         6              MR. STEELE:  Based on all of the data that 

         7          the County --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How many units? 

         9              MR. STEELE:  For 18 units --

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Eighteen.

        11              MR. STEELE:  -- sir.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Eighteen units.

        13              MR. STEELE:  Yes, sir.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So that's -- so that was 

        15          the --

        16              MR. STEELE:  That were the instructions. 

        17              The instructions that were given to the 

        18          other two appraisers for the State, they went 

        19          out and did their independent study.  Their 

        20          independent study said there was no island 

        21          ordinance in effect.  Therefore, you needed a 

        22          bridge. 

        23              However, that is not accurate.  So what 

        24          they did is they said, well, unless you build a 

        25          bridge there, you couldn't per-- you can't -- 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          you can't permit 18 units, which is not the 

         2          case, because within 500 to 1,000 feet of this 

         3          island, there are other islands that have been 

         4          developed and been permitted without a bridge. 

         5              So that's the reason why the appraisals 

         6          came in twice as high on the original 

         7          appraisers, and half what those appraisals 

         8          were, because one appraiser basically took the 

         9          approach that there was no permitting for a 

        10          bridge there, because there was no island 

        11          ordinance in effect --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, two appraisals 

        13          didn't -- 

        14              MR. STEELE:  Yes, sir.  That's correct.  So 

        15          that's the reason for it. 

        16              And unfortunately -- unfortunately, what's 

        17          happened is is that one appraiser basically 

        18          took the approach that, since there was no 

        19          island ordinance in effect, that, in fact, that 

        20          the islands were undevelopable --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General.

        22              MR. STEELE:  -- which is not accurate.

        23              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I -- I guess 

        24          I'd like to know why we gave our appraisers 

        25          that instruction.  I mean, why are we doing --

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STEELE:  I think he did that 

         2          independently, sir.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, let -- let -- 

         4              MR. STEELE:  I don't think the instructions 

         5          were given to him. 

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Jason, let the --

         7              MR. STEELE:  I think he did it 

         8          independently.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Let the Secretary or --

        10              MR. STEELE:  Yes, sir.

        11              MR. FOUNTAIN:  Governor, Cabinet members, 

        12          Keith Fountain with the Nature Conservancy.  I 

        13          wish I was an appraiser right now, maybe I 

        14          could answer this question.

        15              I also find myself in a little bit of an 

        16          uncharacteristic position.  This is not a 

        17          Nature Conservancy deal.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh.

        19              MR. FOUNTAIN:  This is a Brevard County 

        20          Commission deal.  They are settling a lawsuit.  

        21          But I think I can shed a little bit of light on 

        22          this.

        23              First of all, we are the land acquisition 

        24          services contractor for Brevard County 

        25          Environmentally Endangered Lands Program, the 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          EEL Program. 

         2              After the lawsuit appraisals were obtained, 

         3          the EEL Program had the desire to go appraise 

         4          the property, using your standards, so that 

         5          those -- to get appraisals that the EEL Program 

         6          and the State could use, the Division of State 

         7          Lands.  That generated the 1.575 number that 

         8          you have before you today.

         9              I think the question -- or the answer, 

        10          Governor, to your question is, we're looking at 

        11          the nature of the beast here, and that these 

        12          are islands, and that the opinions of value are 

        13          all over the place.

        14              What you've got is this:  In the lawsuit, 

        15          two appraisals were obtained, one by the 

        16          landowner, one by the County.  Both of them 

        17          assumed existing zoning, and boat access 

        18          islands.  I think this put aside this idea of 

        19          bridging right now. 

        20              Boat access to the islands.  The two 

        21          numbers were, I think, off the top of my head, 

        22          3.14 million dollars, and 6.44 million dollars.

        23              So you average those two, and it's less 

        24          than half of that is what the County's buying 

        25          their property for.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              Now, that was all generated before the 

         2          EEL Program went and got its appraisals.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How big are these lots? 

         4              MR. FOUNTAIN:  They would be 10-acre lots.  

         5          The islands are 187 acres, 153 acres of 

         6          uplands.  They're substantially upland. 

         7              You're talking about 18 units, one unit per 

         8          10 acres.  And you --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        10              MR. FOUNTAIN:  Any -- any more questions? 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.  I was looking -- it's 

        12          starting to come into --

        13              Any other discussion? 

        14              I still -- I still don't understand how the 

        15          State started with a flawed premise on its 

        16          appraisal.  I mean, I can understand why the 

        17          valuations may be different.  But why would 

        18          we -- why would we start with a premise that -- 

        19          that we had to have a bridge when we didn't? 

        20              MR. FOUNTAIN:  The -- the State's 

        21          appraisals, Governor, do not assume that.  The 

        22          appraisers on the State side looked at this 

        23          also as a boat access island.

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So it was done on 

        25          the same basis as far as you know.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Well, and -- and 

         2          Secretary Struhs said -- Secretary Struhs said 

         3          that the criteria were -- were virtually 

         4          similar.

         5              MR. FOUNTAIN:  Yes. 

         6              The three appraisals -- if you look at 

         7          the -- the high one in the litigation assumed 

         8          it as-is zoning, and I believe off the top of 

         9          my head, boat access. 

        10              I know the one the County obtained for 

        11          3.14 million dollars, boat access, he was 

        12          actually at 17 units.  Because they had a 

        13          different area figure.

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

        15              (Secretary Harris exited the room.)

        16              MR. FOUNTAIN:  The ones that were obtained 

        17          by the EEL Program assumed 18 development 

        18          units, and boat access.  All the same thing.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions? 

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You know, we -- we 

        21          need to try to resolve this issue, and I'm not 

        22          sure I can support it the way it is right now.  

        23          But this is a -- a bargain share. 

        24              There is a price tag of 8 -- 1.85 on this 

        25          thing.  If the State was willing to go 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          50 percent on it in the bargain share basis, I 

         2          could probably live with this thing.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But we're buying 

         4          the whole thing.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  The -- General, if I -- if I 

         6          could respond to that, because this has to be 

         7          considered in -- in the larger context.  The 

         8          bargain --

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  -- shared project --

        11              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I understand.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  -- at this -- at this point, 

        13          the County --

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'm trying to -- I'm 

        15          trying to get out of this dilemma, because this 

        16          is -- you know, we wind up, once again, here's 

        17          a -- here's a guy that's got a piece of 

        18          property that's appraised at approximately 

        19          800,000.  And we're going to pay him 1.8.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But we're not.  

        21          He's settling a lawsuit with the County, and 

        22          the County has agreed to buy this land for 1.8.  

        23          We're not involved in that at all.

        24              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.  But we're 

        25          underwriting 1.4 of it.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Or 1.5.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Madam Chairman, can I ask 

         4          you a question?

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They've got to buy 

         6          it either way.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Got a -- can you -- what 

         8          will happen if we vote no here, just out of 

         9          curiosity? 

        10              (Secretary Harris entered the room.)

        11              MS. HIGGS:  It will move forward in the 

        12          legal process to petition.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They'll have to 

        14          buy it, sooner or later.

        15              MS. HIGGS:  And to divide the property, and 

        16          then the County will have a certain part of it, 

        17          and the land owner would have the other.

        18              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, let -- 

        19          let me take one crack at it here.

        20              The question is is -- is -- is the 

        21          appraisal at 3.6 million a val-- you know, what 

        22          it's worth.  If you take 18 lots, 10-acre lots, 

        23          in probably one of the most beautiful places in 

        24          the world, on the water, could you sell them 

        25          for 200,000 a lot. 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              I think the answer is yes.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Sure you could.

         3              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  So it is probably 

         4          worth 3.6.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well then, we need to go 

         6          get our appraisers to get upgraded on the 

         7          realities of --

         8              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, I agree 

         9          with --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- real estate prices on 

        11          east central Florida. 

        12              I mean, I -- 

        13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, and I 

        14          think -- I think appraisers make certain 

        15          assumptions when they're doing an appraisal.  

        16          And -- and I -- apparently the assumption that 

        17          was made here was some of them were not --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I --

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- all that good.  

        20          But it's -- I don't know.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Here's the deal.  I mean, 

        22          we just -- we -- we had 85 percent of the 

        23          appraised value and -- three items before, and 

        24          we were all very proud of that.  And this one's 

        25          200 percent of appraised value, and I've got a 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          problem with that. 

         2              I just -- I -- we do look like -- I just -- 

         3          maybe I'm wrong, and maybe it's only anecdotal.  

         4          But I just get the sense that we do -- whoever 

         5          said that we -- we -- we buy high and we sell 

         6          low.

         7              MS. HIGGS:  Governor, if -- if I might add, 

         8          in this case, the -- the presentation earlier 

         9          that Commissioner Crawford made in terms of 

        10          profit, the County is actually buying at the 

        11          1.85, you're buying at the appraised value. 

        12              We will leave on the table 275,000.  So the 

        13          profit -- we're not making a profit.  We're --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know you're not.

        15              MS. HIGGS:  -- actually losing, and you're 

        16          becoming the 100 percent owner at the appraised 

        17          value.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But -- but that's -- it's 

        19          still a piece of property, and it's still 

        20          overall, together, we're paying significantly 

        21          more than what our appraisal said.

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, is 

        23          there a chance that we can just get it 

        24          reappraised?  I mean --

        25              MS. HIGGS:  No, sir, we're not.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, maybe I did a poor 

         2          job of -- of -- of explaining this.  And if I 

         3          could try again. 

         4              We are -- we -- we went through the normal 

         5          State-approved process for determining the 

         6          value of the land.  The approved value came in 

         7          at one point-- one million five hundred and 

         8          seventy-five thousand dollars.  We're 

         9          recommending it here for approval at that 

        10          price. 

        11              So it's -- it's actually 100 percent of the 

        12          approved appraised value.

        13              The -- the earlier higher appraisals, in 

        14          terms of what the land was arguably worth, was 

        15          done without any State involvement between the 

        16          two half-interest owners, the -- Mr. Downey 

        17          and --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I understand that. 

        19              But you were asked the question, was the -- 

        20          whatever the number was, three eight or 

        21          three -- the -- the doubled appraised price --

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- was it an apple to apple 

        24          comparison to the million five appraisal you 

        25          got; and you said, yes, it is.

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                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  They used similar assumptions.  

         2          But obviously --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's an apple to apple 

         4          comparison. 

         5              MR. STRUHS:  But the --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's -- 

         7              MR. STRUHS:  -- but the -- but the 

         8          appraisers came back with obviously very 

         9          different --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  They're valuing the same 

        11          property.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Correct. 

        13              So actually from -- and -- and maybe I -- 

        14          maybe I'm missing something.  But I think it's 

        15          actually a -- at worst, it's a fair deal; and 

        16          at best, it's a good deal.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Uh-hum.

        18              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, let me take 

        19          another crack at it here. 

        20              On my sheet here, it says the approved 

        21          value is based on our two appraisals, 

        22          1.575 million.  And we're paying -- and the 

        23          seller's purchase price is 1.8.  So -- 

        24              MR. STRUHS:  No.  No.  The --

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  And the Trustees' 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          price is 1.5.

         2              MR. STRUHS:  The way this item is supposed 

         3          to read, and I -- I think it does, is -- is if 

         4          you approve the item, you would agree to 

         5          purchase the property at the State-approved 

         6          value. 

         7              We -- we -- we used the State process to 

         8          determine what the value is, we determined it 

         9          was one million five hundred and seventy-five 

        10          thousand dollars, we bring the item to you with 

        11          a recommendation that you acquire it at that 

        12          price. 

        13              All the activity prior to that was between 

        14          the two --

        15              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Right.

        16              MR. STRUHS:  -- half-interest holders.  

        17          Brevard County in those negotiations, came up 

        18          with appraisals that were substantially higher.  

        19          To the extent that there would now be a 

        20          difference, that difference is --

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  We're paying the 

        22          lower.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah, we're paying the lower.

        24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I think the 

        25          Attorney General had the -- when he did the 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          analysis a while ago, was saying that -- that 

         2          we're paying 3.6, when, in fact, we're -- we're 

         3          paying 1.5.

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  You're actually paying a 

         5          hundred --

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- thousand --

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We're paying 

         9          1.5, but the -- but -- 

        10              MR. STRUHS:  The -- the difference will be 

        11          swallowed by Brevard County.

        12              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Right.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And I don't think 

        14          everybody understands that.  I think --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Okay. 

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- what we may 

        17          have here is that the first appraisals were 

        18          done on a retail value of these lots sold 

        19          individually for 8 -- 18 individual lots.  And 

        20          when the State buys it, we do not buy it on a 

        21          retail level, we buy it on the wholesale level. 

        22              And the -- our appraiser instructed to do 

        23          it on a wholesale level. 

        24              And when the other -- when you're only 

        25          talking 18 lots, I think you can have -- find 

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                                September 12, 2000
         1          that kind of a difference.  So that may well 

         2          explain why we are seeing the first appraisal 

         3          be so high.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions, 


         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Again, my math is 

         7          rather rudimentary, I suppose.  But the -- 

         8          Mr. Downey on a basis of our appraisal should 

         9          be paid approximately half of 16 -- 

        10          1.6 million.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.  I think --

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  On -- on the basis 

        13          of our appraisal.  Half of the property.  

        14          That's all we're buying.  That's all the -- 

        15          that's all -- not what we're buying.  That's 

        16          what the City --

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're not --

        18              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- is buying. 

        19              Just a minute. 

        20              The City is buying a half of that island. 

        21              Based on our appraisal, they should pay him 

        22          approximately $800,000, based on our appraisal.

        23              However, they are paying him 1.8 million 

        24          dollars.  And that doesn't make a whole lot of 

        25          sense to me.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'm -- I'm sorry.

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's the 

         3          City's problem.

         4              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Regardless of the 

         5          fact that we're buying the whole island from 

         6          the City for our appraised value.  It just 

         7          doesn't make any sense to me.

         8              MS. HIGGS:  You're buying the entire parcel 

         9          from Brevard County at your appraised value.

        10              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  The -- the 

        11          taxpayers.  The taxpayers of this state are 

        12          buying it.

        13              MS. HIGGS:  And the -- and the taxpayers of 

        14          Brevard County, in -- pursuant to the settling 

        15          of the litigation on the partitioning went 

        16          through appraisals, and those appraisals 

        17          indicated the two values, the average of which, 

        18          one-half, we are paying to Mr. Downey.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But, David, just -- I want 

        20          to make sure -- I -- now, I think we may have 

        21          gotten a little confused. 

        22              Are we -- are we paying -- we're buying 

        23          100 percent of this island.

        24              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Uh-hum.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.

         2              MS. HIGGS:  Islands.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Islands, excuse me.  For --

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  One point --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- for --

         6              MR. STRUHS:  One hundred percent appraised 

         7          value.

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Appraised 

         9          value.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  For -- no, for your appra-- 

        11          the -- not the appraisals that were given by 

        12          our state, which is our responsibility to look 

        13          at.  We're paying double what that appraisal --

        14              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No, no.

        15              MS. HIGGS:  No.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're paying --

        17              MS. HIGGS:  You're paying --

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  No.

        19              MS. HIGGS:  -- your appraised value.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, when I asked you the 

        21          question about 30 minutes ago and we started 

        22          down this path, it would have been a lot easier 

        23          to -- to maybe get this resolved.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  I'm -- I -- I apologize if -- 

        25          if I was not clear.  I -- I attempted in -- in 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          going through that historical rendition before 

         2          we got here, address all those issues --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments?

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Secretary Struhs, we are 

         5          buying the entire property -- the entire 

         6          property is being purchased 100 percent at 

         7          1.8 of --

         8              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

         9              MS. HIGGS:  No, ma'am.  No, ma'am.

        10              SECRETARY HARRIS:  What -- no.  At -- 

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Total price.

        12              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Wait, wait, wait.  Let 

        13          me -- let me just -- 

        14              -- at 1.8, of which 1.5 is the State's 

        15          responsibility.

        16              MS. HIGGS:  No.

        17              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  No.

        19              MS. HIGGS:  No, ma'am. 

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

        21              MS. HIGGS:  You're buying -- you're buying 

        22          100 percent from Brevard County --

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.

        24              MS. HIGGS:  -- at 1.57, which is the 

        25          appraised value -- 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  You say it is --

         2              MS. HIGGS:  -- your appraised value.

         3              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And you're -- and you're 

         4          doing -- and the County is doing --

         5              MS. HIGGS:  The County is going to buy the 

         6          other interest at 1.85.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The County owns 

         8          half --

         9              MS. HIGGS:  And -- and will leave -- leave 

        10          about 280,000 on the table in the process.  

        11          We're bringing --

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're going to 

        13          settle --

        14              MS. HIGGS:  -- to you --

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- a lawsuit on 

        16          ownership.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Another -- another way of 

        18          looking at it, if -- if I might, is --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I still say we're doubling 

        20          the --

        21              MR. STRUHS:  -- we -- with all -- with all 

        22          due respect to -- to Brevard County, we don't 

        23          really care how Brevard County and how 

        24          Mr. Downey did or didn't --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Exactly.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- transfer these interests.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  So -- okay.  So for the 

         3          whole island for the -- for the 18 lots, we're 

         4          paying 1.5, which means that it's actually 

         5          going to be less than 100,000 a lot, instead of 

         6          what we all agreed that 200,000 for 10 acres 

         7          would be a reasonable price. 

         8              The State of Florida is actually paying 

         9          1.575 -- 

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        11              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- for 18 lots, which is 

        12          going to be less than 100,000 a lot, right?

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.  That's what I 

        15          thought.  And it's -- and whatever Broward -- 

        16          whatever Brevard does is --

        17              MR. STRUHS:  So -- so whatever -- whatever 

        18          the --

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That's what I thought.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  -- arrangement was between 

        21          Mr. Downey and Brevard County is -- is -- is 

        22          immaterial, because the --

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Still taxpayers.  But -- 

        24              MR. STRUHS:  -- the item -- right.

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, but -- but, 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          David, on the appraisal by the State --

         2              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

         3              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- at 1.575, was 

         4          that for a half interest?

         5              MR. STRUHS:  But we --

         6              SECRETARY HARRIS:  No.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  That's the full interest.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Full interest.

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You may 

        10          not -- you may not buy it.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  You're -- you're getting 

        12          100 percent of the interest for 100 percent of 

        13          the appraised value.  And we're using our 

        14          appraisal, which is --

        15              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But the County's 

        16          paying, again, you know, the 1.8, I guess.  So 

        17          the total purchase price is really the 3.6, or 

        18          something like that.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yeah.  The State's 

        20          getting a --

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  We're getting --

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- good value, but the 

        23          taxpayers are taking it.

        24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  The County's 

        25          picking up the rest.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion? 

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, I 

         3          just want to -- here to me, just something 

         4          seems fairly flawed. 

         5              I mean, with -- with one appraisal being 

         6          40 percent of the other appraisal, David, is 

         7          there a chance that the State appraisers 

         8          thought this was what we thought it was, and 

         9          that was a -- what do you call it, a bargain 

        10          price where the County pays half, and the State 

        11          pays half? 

        12              And -- and, therefore, it gets on the 

        13          agenda quicker, where the appraiser just 

        14          appraised half of the value, as opposed to -- 

        15              MR. STRUHS:  No.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.  Well, we're --

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So then --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- we're -- I think 

        19          we've -- we've made it clear that we're -- when 

        20          I got -- everybody said no, I think I'm still 

        21          accurate to say that the government, County 

        22          government and State government, the taxpayers 

        23          of the state of Florida, are paying double what 

        24          our State appraisal said. 

        25              And that, I'm going to vote no on, unless 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          you can figure out a better way to come do it.

         2              MR. STRUHS:  No, I -- Governor, I -- I -- 

         3          I think -- I think maybe I should start over.  

         4          You know --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, because I think the 

         6          majority of the members of this Cabinet believe 

         7          that we are paying -- we're buying for 

         8          3.6 million dollars --

         9              MS. HIGGS:  No, sir.  No --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- total --

        11              MS. HIGGS:  Abso--

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- total --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No.

        14              MS. HIGGS:  May I --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

        16              MS. HIGGS:  -- try one more time. 

        17              We will settle the -- the partitioning 

        18          litigation with -- with the owner -- other 

        19          owner at 1.8.  We will turn around in a 

        20          simultaneous closing with the State of Florida, 

        21          you will receive the total value of the 

        22          island -- that you'll receive all of the 

        23          islands at the appraised value that -- that 

        24          your appraisers have said.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Another -- another way of 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          putting it is Brevard County -- well -- well --

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  It's the 

         3          difference --

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Did you say --

         5              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- between 1.850, 

         6          versus 1.575 is --

         7              MR. STRUHS:  It's a diff--

         8              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- what you're -- 

         9              MR. STRUHS:  -- it's a difference of --

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- what you're 

        11          eating --

        12              MR. STRUHS:  -- what, $285,000.

        13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- at the County.

        14              MS. HIGGS:  And -- and we will pay that.

        15              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  So a couple 

        16          hundred -- 

        17              MS. HIGGS:  But it's not being paid twice, 

        18          Governor, it's being paid --

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, thank you.

        20              MS. HIGGS:  -- one time.

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Okay.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I've got it.

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  So we still end up 

        24          paying about $100,000 a lot.  That's it.

        25              MS. HIGGS:  Yes, ma'am.

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Exactly.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.  Total.  Okay. 

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good God.

         4              All right.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So it's a good 

         6          deal for us, even though it was a bad deal for 

         7          the County.

         8              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  It's probably a 

         9          good deal for --

        10              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It's a very -- very 

        11          good deal for Mr. Downey.  He is the man that 

        12          is --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But --

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- making out.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- but, you know, 

        16          we -- I'm sure it is. 

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I think I'd take --

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- no doubt about 

        19          it.  But it's -- it's land we want to acquire.  

        20          And it's a -- and it's a fair price for us to 

        21          acquire that -- 

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- other 

        24          purchases.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There is a motion and a 

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1          second, I believe, isn't there? 

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yes.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All in favor, say aye.

         4              THE CABINET:  Aye.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed.

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good. 

         8              The ayes have it.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Onward.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  We have one more item, 

        11          Item Number 18.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for coming.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Item Number 18, we're 

        14          recommending approval of the acquisition of the 

        15          2,292 acres of land, and partial settlement of 

        16          pending litigation under the terms of the 

        17          proposed settlement agreement.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion? 

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Second? 

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's moved and seconded.

        23              Without objection, it's approved.

        24              Thank you all very much. 


                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1              (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 

         2          Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)

         3                              *   *   *

         4              (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at 

         5          12:16 p.m.)





















                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

                                September 12, 2000
         1                    CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER




         5     STATE OF FLORIDA:

         6     COUNTY OF LEON:

         7              I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 

         8     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

         9     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

        10     notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 

        11     pages numbered 1 through 200 are a true and correct 

        12     record of the aforesaid proceedings.

        13              I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

        14     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 

        15     nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 

        16     or financially interested in the foregoing action.

        17              DATED THIS 22ND day of SEPTEMBER, 2000. 


        23                   LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
                             100 Salem Court
        24                   Tallahassee, Florida 32301

                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.