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          2                       T H E   C A B I N E T
          3                  S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                              STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
          6                     DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                    BOARD OF TRUSTEES
          7                     STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                        VOLUME 1
          9                       (PAGES 1 THROUGH 199)
         10               The above agencies came to be heard before
                THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
         11     presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The 
                Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, June 13, 2000, 
         12     commencing at approximately 9:10 a.m.
         15                           Reported by:
         16                        NANCY P. VETTERICK
                            Registered Professional Reporter
         17                     Certified Court Reporter
                                Notary Public in and for
         18                   the State of Florida at Large
         22                ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                     100 SALEM COURT
         23                    TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1     APPEARANCES:
          2               Representing the Florida Cabinet:
          3               JEB BUSH
                          BOB CRAWFORD
          5               Commissioner of Agriculture
          6               BOB MILLIGAN
                          KATHERINE HARRIS
          8               Secretary of State
          9               BOB BUTTERWORTH
                          Attorney General
                          BILL NELSON
         11               Treasurer
         12               TOM GALLAGHER
                          Commissioner of Education
                                          * * *

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                             I N D E X
          2     ITEM                    ACTION                 PAGE
          3     VOTE
          4     Parole Commission       Approved                  5
                (Presented by Tom Herndon,
          7          Executive Director)
          8     1                       Approved                  6
                2                       Approved                  6
          9     3                       Approved                 12
                4                       Deferred                 34
         10     5(A)                    Approved                 35
                5(B)                    Approved                 35      
         11     6                       For Information          39       
                7                       Approved                 40
         13     (Presented by Ben Watkins,
                1                       Approved                 41
         15     2                       Approved                 41
                3                       Approved                 41
         16     4                       Approved                 42
                5                       Approved                 42
         17     6                       Approved                 43
         18     BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
         19     TRUST FUND:
         20     (Presented by Kirby Green, III,
                     Deputy Secretary)
                1                       Approved                 44
         22     Substitute 2            Deferred                 44   
                Substitute 3(1)         Approved                 68
         23     Substitute 3(2)         Deferred                 68
                Substitute 3(3)         Denied                   68
         24     Substitute 4            Approved                 70
                5                       Approved                 71
         25     6                       Approved                 71

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                               INDEX
          2     ITEM                    ACTION                 PAGE
          3     VOTE
          4     BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
          5     TRUST FUND (CONT'D):
          6     (Presented by Kirby Green, III,
                     Deputy Secretary)
                7                       Deferred                 95
          8     8                       Approved                 96
                9                       Approved                 96
          9     10                      No Action               114
                Substitute 11           Approved                115      
         11     (Presented by Wayne Pierson)
         12     1                       Withdrawn               117
                2                       Denied                  161
         13     3                       Remanded                198
         16     CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER                         199

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                       P R O C E E D I N G S

          2             (The agenda items commenced at 10:00 a.m.)

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Now, we need to have a vote on 

          4           assignment of temporary duty to former 

          5           commissioners with the Florida Parole Commission.

          6                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I'll move it.

          7                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I second it.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded without 

          9           objection.  It's approved.  Very good.

















                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of Administration.

          2                MR. HERNDON:  Good morning, gentlemen.  Item 

          3           Number 1 is approval of the minutes of the meeting 

          4           held May 23rd as amended.

          5                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I'll move.

          6                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          8           objection, it's approved.

          9                MR. HERNDON:  Item 2 is approval of fiscal 

         10           sufficiency of an amount not exceeding $16,645,000 

         11           State of Florida, Board of Regents, Florida 

         12           International University Housing Facility Revenue 

         13           Bonds, Series 2000.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I motion it.

         15                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         17           objection, it's approved.

         18                MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 3 is the 

         19           presentation of the operating budget for the 

         20           defined benefit portion of State Board of 

         21           Administration's operations for fiscal year 

         22           2000/2001.

         23                Governor, you'll recall in the legislation 

         24           that you signed about 10 days ago that the 

         25           Legislature passed this year, that they directed 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the Board to essentially split out defined benefits 

          2           and all other operations from the defined 

          3           contribution budget; so we've essentially presented 

          4           two budgets to you.

          5                The second item of the defined contribution 

          6           portion is contained in the next agenda item.  

          7           Briefly -- I'm sorry.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Please.

          9                MR. HERNDON:  Briefly stated, what we are 

         10           proposing in the defined benefit portion of the 

         11           budget this morning is a 6 percent increase in 

         12           expenditures over the prior year, seven new FTEs, 

         13           three of which are converting OPS positions, some 

         14           additional enhancements to our computer systems.

         15                We've got some Legacy systems that have been 

         16           with us for some time that the support is running 

         17           out for them, so we are proposing that.  Basically, 

         18           the budget is reflecting the workload increase and 

         19           reflecting the performance of the Board in terms of 

         20           meeting its benchmark and exceeding its benchmark 

         21           over the last year and some additional cost 

         22           savings.

         23                We recommend that budget to you which also 

         24           includes, by the way, the Division of Bond Finance, 

         25           the Florida Prepaid College Board, and the Florida 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Hurricane Catastrophe Fund budget.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom, recognizing that the 

          3           Legislature has asked this be split up, you're not 

          4           going to -- you're still one entity.

          5                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are there certain economies --

          7           well, we'll get to the defined contribution part of 

          8           this, but are there any shared costs that will 

          9           impact both?

         10                MR. HERNDON:  In fact, there are, Governor, 

         11           and we're going to talk fairly explicitly about 

         12           that as we look at some of the defined contribution 

         13           issues.  We have already begun a cost allocation 

         14           process within the Board because the time of a 

         15           number of our senior people would be split between 

         16           the defined benefit role and the defined 

         17           contribution role.

         18                Furthermore, we anticipate that positions in 

         19           this budget and in the defined contribution budget, 

         20           while they're labeled as one or the other, aren't 

         21           necessarily always going to be 100 percent 

         22           dedicated to that mission; so we anticipate some 

         23           benefit from that aspect of it as well.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I have another question that's 

         25           related to the defined benefit or the traditional 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           budget that you have.  That relates to the pay 

          2           increases.  Did you set up performance evaluation 

          3           criteria that -- is everybody getting the same?

          4                MR. HERNDON:  Well, what we're proposing is 

          5           that we have the normal COLA that everybody has 

          6           recommended that the balance of state government 

          7           receives, and then the Board adopts, as part of its 

          8           ongoing operation, a benchmark for performance.

          9                In this case, it's a composite benchmark from 

         10           the performance for all of the ASC classes, and we 

         11           outperformed that benchmark by 134 bases, $1.2 

         12           billion this year; so it wasn't simply keeping pace 

         13           with the market.  We outperformed the market by 

         14           that amount.

         15                So basically, what we've proposed is the 

         16           equivalent of $200,000 to be disbursed by the 

         17           supervisors of the various units in the Board to 

         18           those employees whose performance contributed to 

         19           that outperformance, and there are criteria within 

         20           the Board, and there are personnel evaluations that 

         21           have to be conducted as part of that disbursement 

         22           process.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Will the percentage increase 

         24           be the same for everybody?

         25                MR. HERNDON:  No, it will not.  It's strictly 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           a merit-based, contribution-based increase.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Remember, I'm relatively new 

          3           on the job; so I don't know that I've ever had this 

          4           conversation with you, but do we evaluate your 

          5           performance?

          6                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, you do.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Have we done that?

          8                MR. HERNDON:  No, you have not.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  When do you anticipate us 

         10           doing that?

         11                MR. HERNDON:  Whatever is your pleasure, 

         12           Governor.  It's always available to you at any 

         13           time.  I feel like I'm constantly evaluated --

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I suggest that we do it 

         15           before the beginning of the new year.

         16                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, sir.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I think it'd be fairer.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It generally is done, 

         19           Governor, and we look at all of the individuals 

         20           that fall into Tom's category.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We should do this -- I mean, 

         22           we should do it prior to July 1st, don't you think?

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I think that'd be a 

         24           smart thing to do.

         25                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  He wants to do 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           it when market it rising.

          2                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  What's good for one is 

          3           not necessarily good for the other.  I might want 

          4           to comment on that because we've been trying to do 

          5           that, and some of the efforts in dealing with the 

          6           Legislature we've had a great deal of success.

          7                I completely support that.  I think it's a 

          8           good way of recognizing quality and keeping 

          9           quality.

         10                MR. HERNDON:  I might add, Governor, just 

         11           parenthetically that as it relates to the defined 

         12           budget, defined benefit budget and other budgets of 

         13           the Board, we also recognize that the Department of 

         14           Banking and Finance, the Division of Retirement and 

         15           perhaps other agencies will have costs associated 

         16           with implementing defined contributions.

         17                In fact, coincidentally, we're meeting with 

         18           the House and Senate appropriations committees this 

         19           afternoon to talk about just that aspect of it.  

         20           That's not before you today, but perhaps at some 

         21           future date, we'll need to talk about some 

         22           consolidated budget impacts, if you will.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.  Any other 

         24           discussion on Item 3?

         25                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I'll move Item 3.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          3           objection, it's approved.

          4                MR. HERNDON:  The next item, Governor, is the 

          5           second budget that we just discussed briefly, and 

          6           that is the defined contribution portion of the 

          7           budget.  We've also presented for you to consider 

          8           today an organizational chart and a time line.

          9                I have to characterize some of these products 

         10           as being a work in progress because we are very 

         11           much in the throes of trying to plan this entire 

         12           operation and don't want to represent to you that 

         13           they are final by any stretch of the imagination.

         14                I know that there's an interest in deferring 

         15           the budget today which is perfectly fine.  The 

         16           other two items we were planning on just bringing 

         17           up for your discussion, and I think it might be 

         18           worthwhile.

         19                We've got a minute to look at the 

         20           organizational chart because that really sets the 

         21           stage for much of what is scheduled to follow.  You 

         22           should see a yellow and white, legal-size piece of 

         23           paper, and what I want --

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Before you begin, are you 

         25           seriously -- how are you going to pronounce that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           acronym?

          2                MR. HERNDON:  Well, that's one of our great 

          3           regrets in the course of this legislative process 

          4           is we have an acronym in the first place which I 

          5           know you don't prefer.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How do you pronounce that?

          7                MR. HERNDON:  It's PEORP is what we --

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is that Swedish?

          9                MR. HERNDON:  It's really a mouthful, but 

         10           unfortunately, I believe, that is the Public 

         11           Employee Optional Retirement Program, so we're 

         12           stuck with it, I'm afraid.  We just didn't think 

         13           about that at the time.

         14                Basically, what you see in front of you that's 

         15           outlined in the yellow blocks is an implementation 

         16           structure that contemplates an implementation 

         17           group, which you'll notice is the box underneath G, 

         18           Executive Director, see the PEORP implementation 

         19           group.

         20                Essentially, that's a steering committee.  

         21           That is myself as chair and five of our senior 

         22           chiefs, who also are chairs of these respective 

         23           working groups underneath them, plus a 

         24           representative of the Division of Retirement.

         25                It's the role of that group to make sure that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           we're staying on task and on time.  We do recommend 

          2           a couple of staff positions that are contemplated 

          3           in the budgets that staff that working group, but 

          4           basically that's the group that has the broad-based 

          5           oversight of the entire project.

          6                Then you see underneath that group separate 

          7           implementation groups, one for investment services, 

          8           which are chaired by our two chiefs for equities 

          9           and fixed income, education, which our chief 

         10           economist chairs, third-party administration, which 

         11           Gwenn Thomas, who is a candidate for CFO as chief 

         12           of administrative services, chairs, and then also 

         13           the asset transition implementation group.

         14                Again, let me point out that these are 

         15           existing staff members who will be functioning in a 

         16           committee-style process with tasks assigned to 

         17           these committees to carry out as it relates to 

         18           accomplishing our mission over the next two and a 

         19           half years.

         20                In many cases, there are some staff members 

         21           assigned to these committees to actually do some of 

         22           the legwork and to do some of the coordination and 

         23           so forth that's necessary, and it's our expectation 

         24           that each of these committees will have a 

         25           consultant available to them, as the need arises, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           to help in planning this overall implementation 

          2           activity.

          3                In fact, the general consultant that the Board 

          4           is proposing to hire we're interviewing the 

          5           finalists tomorrow and Thursday of this week; so 

          6           we'll hopefully have a general consultant on board 

          7           fairly quickly.

          8                The mission of that particular consultant is 

          9           really to help us with transition planning and 

         10           project management, not intended to be necessarily 

         11           a specialist in third-party administration or 

         12           education.

         13                This is a huge undertaking.  It's been 

         14           represented to us that it is the largest conversion 

         15           of the pension in the history of this country.  We 

         16           know it involves at least 600,000 people who have 

         17           to be educated.

         18                We have to have a third-party administrator 

         19           who is capable of handling that kind of volume.  We 

         20           have to have investment products that are geared to 

         21           the needs of those individuals.  The other thing I 

         22           would point out, just by way of reference, is the 

         23           advisory committee that's up there that advises you 

         24           and the other trustees, and we're still looking 

         25           forward to the appointments that you and the other 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           appointing authorities will make to that advisory 

          2           committee.

          3                That is going to be a working advisory 

          4           committee.  We really are looking forward to having 

          5           some folks on that advisory committee that will 

          6           spend some time and help us think through this 

          7           entire operation.

          8                We're also recommending, and we'll probably 

          9           propose at the meeting on the 26th a slight 

         10           modification of this organizational chart.  Where 

         11           you see independent fiduciary, probably a better 

         12           term for that is an independent advisor.

         13                One of the critical aspects of this entire 

         14           operation is, as you, I know, are sensitive to, and 

         15           we've talked to the other trustees about, that you 

         16           essentially are wearing two hats now as fiduciaries 

         17           to both the DB members and the DC members.

         18                It's very clear to us, and our current general 

         19           consultant to the Board has already advised us that 

         20           you clearly have a duty now of fairness to all of 

         21           the members of the plan, regardless of which one 

         22           they happen to be in, to make sure that they're all 

         23           treated equally as we go through this process of 

         24           evolution and implementation.

         25                As an example, when we get to the time that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           assets have to be liquidated and moved to 

          2           individual accounts, we cannot do anything that 

          3           disadvantages unfairly the remaining members of the 

          4           DB plan because you are fiduciary to those 

          5           individual members; so we need to liquidate assets 

          6           in an appropriate fashion and in a fair fashion so 

          7           no party is inequitably handled in that process.

          8                We're proposing an independent advisor to be 

          9           at arm's length from the process, to keep an eye on 

         10           what we're doing to make sure that you discharge 

         11           your fiduciary duty, that we discharge ours 

         12           appropriately, and to say to us, you know, we don't 

         13           think that what you're proposing to do in this 

         14           particular fashion is the right thing to do.

         15                It may wind up having an unintended effect of 

         16           whatever the conclusion might be.  Again, we've got 

         17           a specific group there for asset transition.  The 

         18           last point I wanted to make under the 

         19           organizational chart, Governor and members of the 

         20           trustees, is that for each of these implementation 

         21           groups, they will be staffed by members of our 

         22           staff, members of the Division of Retirement, from 

         23           Banking and Finance.

         24                We're asking the various constituency groups, 

         25           the school boards, the counties, the special 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           districts and so forth to all designate members who 

          2           are really practitioners, if you can accept that 

          3           word in the truest sense, people who understand how 

          4           the payroll system works in the school system, 

          5           because we're going to have to interface with 800 

          6           employers as part of this process.

          7                They're going to be sending money into a 

          8           third-party administrator.  We have to make sure 

          9           that our systems are compatible, that we understand 

         10           the process and everything else; so we're really 

         11           going to draw, we hope, on a lot of expertise from 

         12           those constituent groups.

         13                That's basically the organizational structure.  

         14           We obviously contemplate that this will be modified 

         15           somewhat as time goes on, and we understand even 

         16           more what we're involved in.  As I said, our 

         17           general consultant, the one that we're really 

         18           looking to to help us with project management, 

         19           isn't even on board yet, but we're hoping to have 

         20           somebody on board fairly quickly.

         21                I'll stop at that point because I want to move 

         22           onto a discussion briefly about the time line just 

         23           to highlight --

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can I ask a few questions?

         25                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, sir.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  On the consultants, there are 

          2           six consultants in varying areas of this 

          3           undertaking.

          4                MR. HERNDON:  Actually, there may be more, 

          5           Governor.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  More?

          7                MR. HERNDON:  Some --

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  And the general consultant is 

          9           going to be -- do you have a management issue here 

         10           of all these consultants running around kind of 

         11           without having the broader picture?  Is the general 

         12           consultant's job to be the project coordinator of 

         13           this?

         14                MR. HERNDON:  To a certain degree, that's 

         15           correct.  It is the responsibility of that --

         16           pardon the expression -- PEORP implementation 

         17           group, with myself as chair and the chairs of each 

         18           of the separate implementation groups, to monitor 

         19           and coordinate the activities of the entire 

         20           implementation process, but the general consultant, 

         21           as you point out, is intended to be assisting us in 

         22           project management and transition planning.

         23                That's precisely the skill set that we're 

         24           looking for this Wednesday and Thursday in the 

         25           interviews.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  If someone is one of these six 

          2           or more consultants, they're not going to be an arm 

          3           of -- an affiliate of theirs or a subsidiary of 

          4           theirs won't be a participant in the investment 

          5           side of this?

          6                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.  We've made it 

          7           very clear in the RFI that we sent out for this 

          8           consultant, and in future RFIs that we send out, 

          9           that if you accept the role to do X, you cannot do 

         10           A, B, C and D.  You're precluded from providing 

         11           investment services or whatever the case may be.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The third-party administrator, 

         13           I assume, the same would apply, right?

         14                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  'Cause one of the issues in 

         16           the Legislature, the bill did require a separation.

         17                MR. HERNDON:  A separation, that's correct.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  And is the third-party 

         19           administrator the only entity that -- I mean, you 

         20           won't need a heavy barrage of -- an arsenal of 

         21           consultancy once this is set up, will you?

         22                MR. HERNDON:  No, that's correct.  I think 

         23           it's our expectation that once we get in place a 

         24           third-party administrator, and investment providers 

         25           and an education vendor for the ongoing education 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           -- 'cause recall that every new employee who comes 

          2           into the government system will be given that 

          3           choice; so whatever the turnover is for the entire 

          4           system, let's say 15 percent, that means that 

          5           you'll have 60 to 100,000 new people every year who 

          6           will require an education.

          7                Once you get past this implementation phase, 

          8           two and a half years from now, the need for many of 

          9           these consultants will dissipate significantly.  In 

         10           fact, the need for a portion of the staff that 

         11           we're recommending in the budget will also 

         12           dissipate.

         13                We anticipate that there may be some ongoing 

         14           supervision, but that's all.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Have you looked at how other 

         16           states have done this that may not be as big?

         17                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, we have.  We've spent a 

         18           good bit of time talking to other states not only 

         19           in preparing this organizational structure, but the 

         20           time line and the budget, and, as you point out, 

         21           the scale is part of the problem that we're dealing 

         22           with.

         23                Furthermore, as you know, although there are 

         24           instances in other jurisdictions where plans have 

         25           gone through this kind of transition, they're all a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           little bit different, and as a consequence, we 

          2           don't have a precise model that we can adopt and 

          3           use for our own purposes here.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other --

          5                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I always have a look at 

          6           these wire diagrams, and I'm always interested in 

          7           how the lines move, and where they go, and what 

          8           they really mean.  For example, the IAC, which is 

          9           shown as a direct advisor to the --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  What's the IAC?

         11                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  That is the --

         12                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Investment 

         13           Advisory Council.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- Investment Advisory 

         15           Council that's been in existence for some time, but 

         16           it doesn't directly advise the trustees.  In fact, 

         17           generally, and the way I see it, it operates 

         18           through the executive director.

         19                The executive director -- I mean, I certainly 

         20           have sat on a number of IAC meetings, but they are 

         21           not directly advising the trustees.  We show this 

         22           PEORP as also directly advising the trustees.  

         23           Further, and while Tom has acknowledged that, that 

         24           dotted line, whatever that dotted line means from 

         25           this term we called independent fiduciary before it 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           will be called something else, it's been eliminated 

          2           going directly to the trustees.

          3                I think we have to be real careful as the 

          4           trustees and with our fiduciary responsibilities 

          5           and the ERISA rules, under which we have to 

          6           operate, that we don't cloud the lines of 

          7           responsibility, and we don't cloud the lines of 

          8           staff support, and we don't create confusion as to 

          9           someone saying this is a fair investment item, some 

         10           fiduciary advisor, and then we choose not to take 

         11           it, for example, and what does that do to us in the 

         12           context of our fiduciary responsibility.

         13                I guess I'm concerned that we have an SBA 

         14           staff, when we're talking about defined benefit or 

         15           defined contribution, is a staff that is advising 

         16           us as trustees.  We can go seek any external 

         17           support we may choose, but they are the ones that 

         18           are advising us.

         19                I'm not sure that that's really clear in the 

         20           way this thing is laid out; so it's more a 

         21           reservation about the way we are receiving advice 

         22           and staff support.

         23                MR. HERNDON:  We've had conversation with the 

         24           General about that.  I think we intend to portray 

         25           this a little differently when we come back to you 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           on the 26th for further representations.

          2                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But I think it also 

          3           refers to the IAC and the PEORP and where they fit 

          4           in in relationship with advice to the trustee or 

          5           whatever it's called.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Has there been any thought 

          7           given to -- I'm not saying I'm in support of this, 

          8           but just to look at other options, to have this be 

          9           completely outsourced with a minimal amount 

         10           involvement by the SBA?

         11                How does it affect our liability, the 

         12           fiduciary responsibility?

         13                MR. HERNDON:  Well, somebody would have to be 

         14           willing to accept the fiduciary responsibility and, 

         15           in effect, take control -- I use that word very 

         16           advisedly because I think you can define that from 

         17           zero to 100, so to speak -- there are varying 

         18           levels of control -- but willing to take control of 

         19           the operation and the asset disposition and so 

         20           forth in order for them to be fiduciaries.

         21                I don't think you can, as a matter of law and 

         22           looking back on the statute itself, delegate that 

         23           responsibility to someone unless they take on that 

         24           fiduciary responsibility.  I don't know.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I don't think anybody would 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           jump to do it.

          2                MR. HERNDON:  I suspect not, Governor, but, I 

          3           mean, you may find somebody.  I mean, we thought we 

          4           would find a dramatic number of people who would 

          5           respond to our RFP.  Instead we got six responses, 

          6           four of which were, in fact, to the point, and two 

          7           were not; so that's what we go to our RFI if that's 

          8           any indication of --

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I would think that's 

         10           because of scale.

         11                MR. HERNDON:  It may be part of that.  That 

         12           may be, in fact, part of the problem.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you talk a little bit 

         14           about the education element of this, how you 

         15           envision this working over the next two and a half 

         16           years?

         17                MR. HERNDON:  It might be worthwhile to look, 

         18           if you don't mind, at the timetable, which is the 

         19           next attachment, which is several legal pages long 

         20           that document there.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  This one?

         22                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, sir.  No.  I'm sorry.  

         23           That's a budget component.  You should have a 

         24           multipage --

         25                TREASURER NELSON:  This one?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. HERNDON:  Yes, correct, that Commissioner 

          2           Nelson has.  You don't have that, Governor?

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.  Go ahead.

          4                MR. HERNDON:  This is a time line that we're 

          5           working on, as I indicated, a real true work in 

          6           progress because as we really understand more about 

          7           this project -- you'll see that we basically tried 

          8           to define it in terms of our major tasks.

          9                Each of these tasks relates fairly closely to 

         10           one of our implementation groups, and you'll see 

         11           there, for example, education.  We're starting that 

         12           process now.  It's our expectation, based on the 

         13           way this system works, the first window for state 

         14           employees to be educated under the law is March of 

         15           2002; so everything is backed up from that date.

         16                Now, things that you have to do ahead of that 

         17           date are you have to select and endorse an 

         18           investment policy.  We basically have to have all 

         19           of the decisions made about what kind of investment 

         20           portfolio will be available in the broad sense, 

         21           what are the individuals products that will be 

         22           offered, and we fundamentally also have to have the 

         23           third-party administrator on board and ready to go.

         24                We will be working with consultants to help us 

         25           design the content of that education program, but 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           essentially what you have is an educational program 

          2           that is focused at two levels.  This is where 

          3           there's a particularly critical ERISA and fiduciary 

          4           dimension to this, is you have an obligation, as 

          5           fiduciaries, to educate the members as to DB versus 

          6           DC, if you will accept that kind of simplistic 

          7           choice.

          8                You know, here's the benefits of being a DB 

          9           recipient.  Here's the benefits of DC recipient and 

         10           the implications for you, as an individual, given 

         11           your age, your sex, your mortality, statistics and 

         12           so on and so forth.

         13                Then once someone has chosen for example DC, 

         14           then concurrent with that choice effectively is an 

         15           education about the various investment products 

         16           that are available to you as a DC participant, 

         17           which ones make the most sense for you as a DC 

         18           participant.

         19                All of that education, under the law, has to 

         20           be provided by an independent third party.  It 

         21           can't be an investment provider.  It can't be 

         22           anybody else.  It must be an independent vendor; so 

         23           one of the things that the Board will do -- and as 

         24           you see in the time line that's laid out there 

         25           under education -- is working on designing the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           investment policy, working on designing the content 

          2           of the education program, working on finding a 

          3           vendor or vendors -- and this is where, Governor, 

          4           we talked a little bit about multiple consultants, 

          5           for example, where you may have one here who works 

          6           with us on the content of the education program but 

          7           may not be able, in fact, to deliver an education 

          8           program to 600,000 people in a nine-month period of 

          9           time.

         10                We tried to address that here with this time 

         11           line.  This time line is, as I said, a rough draft.   

         12           We've already got a version dated July 7th that 

         13           supersedes this one.  We'll continue to do that for 

         14           I'm sure sometime to come, but if that answers your 

         15           question on education and just to kind of give you 

         16           a flavor for the tasks ahead of us --

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It does.  It does.  I'd be 

         18           curious to know -- first of all, I have -- we have 

         19           to make the appointments to the --

         20                MR. HERNDON:  Advisory Council.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  And you have a time?

         22                MR. HERNDON:  The sooner, the better, 

         23           Governor.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tomorrow would be better.

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Not later than the ones 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           in February.

          2                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct, not later than 

          3           the ones in February.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You could --

          5                MR. HERNDON:  As soon as they're available, 

          6           we'll start working with them.  In fact, we have 

          7           our Investment Advisory Committee, the IAC that 

          8           General Milligan referred to earlier that meets on 

          9           the 23rd of this month.

         10                There are also activities for them to do in 

         11           this process, and we will begin the briefing for 

         12           them on the 23rd; so we're ready to go, as soon as 

         13           you-all and the Speaker and the President are 

         14           ready, with the other appointing authorities 

         15           besides the three of you.

         16                The other point, Governor, I might make with 

         17           respect to the education program, because you 

         18           raised that specifically, is in the second year of 

         19           the budget, which we're going to talk about more in 

         20           depth on the 26th.

         21                But in the second year of that budget, we have 

         22           begun to identify some of the significant costs 

         23           associated with the implementation, and all of 

         24           these were contemplated by the Legislature I might 

         25           add when they set up the fee structure.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                In that second year is the first time you see 

          2           the education costs, and basically what we've done 

          3           is we've surveyed other states, and we've picked a 

          4           number.  It's not exactly a swag, but it's a 

          5           reasonable approximation of $50 per employee.

          6                Well, that's $30 million when you multiply it 

          7           times 600,000 employees.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Why is that reasonable?

          9                MR. HERNDON:  Why is that reasonable?

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, I mean --

         11                MR. HERNDON:  We think it is reasonable based 

         12           upon what we know other states have spent on their 

         13           education program.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But other states didn't have 

         15           Web, for example, a Web-enabled means of 

         16           communicating with 100 --

         17                MR. HERNDON:  That's right.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How many people?

         19                MR. HERNDON:  600,000.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  600,000 people.

         21                MR. HERNDON:  That's right.  We fully 

         22           anticipate using the Internet extensively, and a 

         23           lot of other media methods as well, but the $50 we 

         24           thought was a reasonable approximation for the 

         25           cost.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                Now, it may be a little bit high.  It may be a 

          2           little bit low in the final analysis that it will 

          3           be a function.  The content that you're trying to 

          4           deliver, the means by which you deliver that 

          5           content -- not all of our employees have access to 

          6           the Internet.

          7                In fact, if you can talk to the Division of 

          8           Retirement, they will tell you now that over 300 of 

          9           the 800 employers out there who are members of the 

         10           FRS still send their employee contribution, the 

         11           paperwork, in as opposed to doing it via E-mail or 

         12           electronic means.  It's not --

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We ought to require that they 

         14           not.

         15                MR. HERNDON:  I'm completely in accord with 

         16           you on that point, and that's a battle that we'll 

         17           have to --

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You can't tell me that 800 

         19           employers don't have access to the Internet.  It's 

         20           possible that many of the employees don't, but the 

         21           800 employers -- if they don't, then we should 

         22           solve that problem by appropriating --

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Some little --

         24                MR. HERNDON:  Buy them a computer.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They don't even have a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           computer?

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Some little small 

          3           special districts that have two or three people.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They should.  We'll solve that 

          5           problem in the Legislature.

          6                MR. HERNDON:  We may be able to solve that 

          7           problem.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You show me a place that 

          9           doesn't have access to the Internet that's 

         10           involving the state, and we'll solve it.

         11                MR. HERNDON:  I don't think it's necessarily 

         12           access problems.  It's willingness problems in some 

         13           cases.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a different subject.

         15                MR. HERNDON:  I agree.  I agree.  In any case, 

         16           the budget that we will talk about on the 26th is 

         17           before you today for your information.  It is about 

         18           60 percent consulting costs.  Again, what we tried 

         19           to do is look at other jurisdictions, take that 

         20           information and scale it to our particular needs.

         21                In some cases, we've been able to do that 

         22           reasonably well.  We know, for example, what other 

         23           jurisdictions are spending to take the question of 

         24           tax status to the IRS and so forth.

         25                In other cases, frankly, we really don't know 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           how much some of these consulting services will 

          2           cost us; so we fully expect to be back with you at 

          3           some future date as need be on this budget as we 

          4           get more refined information.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions or 


          7                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Let me comment on the 

          8           budget, just to reinforce your comments earlier 

          9           when we were talking about Item 3.  You'll notice 

         10           there that there is a reference to Department of 

         11           Banking and Finance and, for that matter, to the 

         12           Department of Management Services for a budget 2000 

         13           and 2001 which is obviously going to require some 

         14           supplemental budget I believe.

         15                The bulk of the budget for DBF, the Department 

         16           of Banking and Finance, is non-reocurring.  It's to 

         17           take care of the changes to the system, the 

         18           information system, for the payroll to get it fixed 

         19           and make sure that we can handle the new way of 

         20           doing business.

         21                I don't know what the total is for DMS in 

         22           terms of non-reocurring versus reocurring, but the 

         23           important thing, Governor is that we're going to 

         24           have a supplemental budget for one of your agencies 

         25           and my agency.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

          2                MR. HERNDON:  That's the subject of that 

          3           meeting this afternoon is to kick off that 

          4           conversation.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.  Any other 

          6           questions?

          7                (No response.)

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Item 4 was for information 

          9           purposes?

         10                MR. HERNDON:  Well, we're deferring the 

         11           budget, and the other two items were for 

         12           information.

         13                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I move deferral all of 

         14           the budget items.

         15                TREASURER NELSON:  Second.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and second to 

         17           defer to June 26th.

         18                MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 5, there are two 

         19           components to Item 5.  They are both sets of the 

         20           rules for the Hurricane Catastrophe Fund to 

         21           implement the rules for the 2000/2001 contract 

         22           year, and for adopting the premium formula, and 

         23           then the second is rules related to the Florida 

         24           Hurricane Catastrophe Fund bonding procedures.

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll move Items A and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           B.

          2                TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, before I --

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, sir.

          4                TREASURER NELSON:  And I'll second that, but I 

          5           just wanted to confirm that what we are adopting 

          6           here does not include any stabilization charge in 

          7           the premium for a proposed reinsurance product that 

          8           that we're going to discuss in Item 6.

          9                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.  It does not.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's been moved and seconded.  

         11           Without objection, it's approved.  Item 6?

         12                MR. HERNDON:  Item 6 is to notify trustees 

         13           that the Hurricane Catastrophe Fund and the staff 

         14           of SBA have selected Guy Carpenter and and LehmanRe 

         15           as reinsurance intermediaries for the Florida 

         16           Hurricane Catastrophe Fund.

         17                We had an evaluation team that was made up of 

         18           our employees and some outside participants that 

         19           looked at the prospective vendors.  It was a 

         20           unanimous selection of this particular firm as the 

         21           best to advise us.

         22                They are working, if you will, on a contingent 

         23           basis.  There's no compensation for the services 

         24           that they provide unless and until the Board 

         25           authorizes the acquisition of some sort of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           reinsurance product.

          2                At that point, they would be compensated by a 

          3           variety of parties.  Basically, what this is 

          4           about -- and Commissioner Nelson has already 

          5           touched on this -- is that, as we go through the 

          6           evolution of the CAT Fund, there is a set of 

          7           expectations that develop within the insurance 

          8           industry and others as to the ability of the CAT 

          9           Fund to deliver the anticipated cash and bond total 

         10           dollars at some future date.

         11                Let's hope we don't have to do that, but if we 

         12           had a hurricane this year and it was of a 

         13           consequence that caused us to spend all of our 

         14           cash, spend through the cash, and have to go to the 

         15           market to bond, at that point we start running into 

         16           risks associated with the bond market, liquidity 

         17           risks, interest rate risks and so on.

         18                What we are looking for with this particular 

         19           consultant's help is whether or not there is a 

         20           reinsurance product or other type of product like a 

         21           credit facility, line of credit that JUA and the 

         22           windstorm pool have that would help us minimize the 

         23           risks of a shortfall if and when there was a need 

         24           to draw on the cash and bond proceeds up to the 

         25           total currently authorized $11 billion.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                There's no obligation on the part of the CAT 

          2           Fund to necessarily produce $11 billion, but 

          3           there's certainly a clear expectation, I think, 

          4           that the CAT Fund can produce the $11 billion, and 

          5           depending on market circumstances and so forth, we 

          6           may or may not be able to produce that $11 billion 

          7           when the time comes.

          8                As you talk to the insurance industry to 

          9           varying degrees -- and the Commissioners are very 

         10           well aware of this -- the insurance companies are 

         11           dependent on the CAT Fund for meeting some of their 

         12           future cash flow obligations.

         13                Basically what this is intended to do is to 

         14           explore this whole question of whether or not there 

         15           is a product that would help us minimize some of 

         16           the risks of producing the cash and bond proceeds 

         17           at a reasonable enough cost to make it worthwhile.

         18                We don't know the answer to that question, but 

         19           that's precisely the question that we're asking, 

         20           and we intend to come back to you, hopefully, on 

         21           the 26th with a recommendation.  It may very well 

         22           be that the recommendation is that the consultants 

         23           looked at it, and we looked at it, and we're not 

         24           recommending anything, but it may be, as well, that 

         25           they find a product or a package of products that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           meet our needs at a cost that's manageable, in 

          2           which case, we might come back and recommend that 

          3           to you, Commissioners.

          4                That's when the stabilization reserve that you 

          5           were talking about comes into play, if it does.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom, can you get some 

          7           information to me about where we stand in terms of 

          8           just the reserve and surplus and the --

          9                MR. HERNDON:  The cash balance on the Fund --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Compared to where we were last 

         11           year.

         12                MR. HERNDON:  Oh, okay.  I'll e-mail you 

         13           something that will give you a snapshot of where we 

         14           are.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Cause I got a sneaking 

         16           suspicion -- I'm not a weather expert, but I think 

         17           we were pretty lucky last year that Floyd didn't 

         18           hit us, and all the experts are saying that we have 

         19           a very similar kind of hurricane season coming up, 

         20           and 1 degree difference to the east would have 

         21           probably made that a very relative point to know 

         22           where we stand with the funds.

         23                MR. HERNDON:  We'll be happy to do that.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That was for informational 

         25           purposes, right?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. HERNDON:  That's correct.

          2                TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, on the basis of 

          3           what Tom has told us, I want for us to have a 

          4           policy discussion here when this item is brought up 

          5           as to whether or not the financing program like 

          6           this is necessary and if the cost justifies the 

          7           benefit.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely

          9                MR. HERNDON:  Correct.

         10                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Am I missing something 

         11           here?  Is there not a relationship with this effort 

         12           here on reinsurance and 5(B)?

         13                MR. HERNDON:  In a sense, yes.  The rules in 

         14           5(B) that we're promulgating here are really 

         15           rewriting some of the rules so that if we have to 

         16           bond, the rules are in the proper format, but 

         17           that's the only relationship.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I thought there 

         19           was a reinsurance piece to 5(B) that's being 

         20           considered.  No?

         21                MR. HERNDON:  No.  I don't think so either, 

         22           General.  I was looking at Dr. Nichols, and he 

         23           shakes his head no.  That's not my recollection 

         24           either, so --

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. HERNDON:  The last item, Item Number 7, is 

          2           requesting your approval of David Nye as the chair 

          3           of the Florida Commission of Hurricane Loss 

          4           Projection Methodology for the 2000/2001.  Dr. Nye 

          5           is a professor of insurance at the University of 

          6           Florida.

          7                He's been the vice chairman of the methodology 

          8           commission for several years.

          9                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll move Item 7.

         10                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         12           objection, it's approved.  Well, of all the things 

         13           that we do, this one has more zeros than anything 

         14           else.

         15                (The State of Board of Administration Agenda 

         16           was concluded.)










                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Division of Bond Finance?   

          2           You're back.

          3                MR. WATKINS:  Yes, I made it after staying the 

          4           night in Atlanta.  Item Number 1 is approval of the 

          5           minutes of the April 11th meeting.

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Moved.

          7                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          9           objection, it's approved.

         10                MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 2 is a resolution 

         11           authorizing the competitive sale of $16,645,000 of 

         12           housing revenue bonds for Florida International 

         13           University.

         14                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Moved.

         15                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         17           objection, it's approved.

         18                MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 3 is a resolution 

         19           authorizing the issuance of up to $24,400,000 in 

         20           housing revenue bonds for Florida Atlantic 

         21           University.

         22                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Moved.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         25           objection, it's approved.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. WATKINS:  Item 4 is a housecleaning 

          2           matter.  It's canceling previously authorized but 

          3           unissued bonds for the University of Florida 

          4           housing system and restating the original 

          5           authorizing resolution and all subsequent 

          6           amendments to that resolution.

          7                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the floor.

          8                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         10           objection, it's approved.

         11                MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 5 is the report of 

         12           award on a competitive sale of $197,900,000 PECO 

         13           bonds.  The bonds awarded to the low bidder at a 

         14           true interest cost of 5.65 percent.

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Motion.

         16                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         18           objection, it's approved.

         19                MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 6 is a report of 

         20           award on the competitive sale of $150,000,000 in 

         21           lottery revenue bonds.  The bonds were awarded to 

         22           the low bidder at a true interest cost rate of 5.74 

         23           percent.

         24                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Motion.

         25                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          2           objection, it's approved.

          3                (The Division of Bond Finance Agency was 

          4           concluded.)






















                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Board of Trustees?

          2                (Treasurer Nelson exits the room.)

          3                MR. GREEN:  Item 1, approval of minutes of the 

          4           April 25, 2000 meeting.

          5                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Move it.

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          8           objection, it's approved.

          9                MR. GREEN:  Substitute Item 2, deferral to the 

         10           July 25th meeting.

         11                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

         12                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  A motion and a second to defer 

         14           to July 25th.  Without objection, it's approved.

         15                MR. GREEN:  Substitute Item 3, we have a 

         16           request from the Department of Management Services 

         17           to lease 5 acres for 50 years, Miami-Dade Fire and 

         18           Rescue Department to lease 55 acres for 50 years, 

         19           and the Department of Juvenile Justice for a 

         20           50-year lease on 25 acres.

         21                Our recommendation on the item is to approve 

         22           the 50-year lease to DMS and to deny the approval 

         23           of a lease to Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue and to the 

         24           Department of Juvenile Justice.  We have a number 

         25           of speakers, Governor.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                The first speaker is Mr. Jessie Jones.

          2                MR. JONES:  Governor and Cabinet Members, 

          3           thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to 

          4           you on this issue this morning.  We've already had 

          5           the opportunity to speak to your aides in depth; so 

          6           we'll try to be as brief as we can.

          7                One of the things that I would like to go over 

          8           with you on that issue is that our position is 

          9           pretty well-known on DJJ.  Thanks to my good 

         10           friend, Morgan Levy, who's adequately responded to 

         11           all of you, and one of the finest citizens I know, 

         12           by the way.

         13                The position that we've always taken in West 

         14           Dade -- you up here pretty well know everything 

         15           that we oppose.  I'd like to take just a brief 

         16           opportunity to tell you some of the things that 

         17           we've supported within a 2-mile radius of this 

         18           site.

         19                We supported the Dade County Police 

         20           Headquarters.  We supported a waste recovery center 

         21           with the proper environmental protection.  They 

         22           actually fought for and helped the Miami-Dade Fire 

         23           and Rescue secure the current headquarters.

         24                We supported a hazardous waste medical 

         25           facility in our community.  We supported the 

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          1           federal reserve benefit, and we've overwhelmingly 

          2           supported the South Town Headquarters facility with 

          3           the 15 acres that you just granted to them.

          4                I'd like to say that we continue to support 

          5           and understand the sensitivity to that, and we do 

          6           support that.  At this time, we also want to let 

          7           you know that we've been working with the 

          8           Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue.  We have examined -- 

          9           for over a year and a half, we've been working with 

         10           them on that parcel of land.

         11                If the Cabinet should see its way to support 

         12           that, I could tell you it does have the support of 

         13           the community.  We've had at least five town 

         14           meetings on that.  The town is very well behind the 

         15           position for leadership, community leadership, has 

         16           given and I'm reflecting here to you today.

         17                In the interest of the DMS, we don't know very 

         18           much about that.  We typically, if this were a 

         19           local issue, we would ask to have meetings with 

         20           them to find compatability issues.  In closing, I'd 

         21           like to say that from having appeared here last 

         22           week, it occurred to me that you're entering into 

         23           some long-term leases on some state-owned land.

         24                That land, regardless of who you would lease 

         25           it to, is required to go through the local zoning 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           process; so I think in the process of fairness to 

          2           the State and fairness to the applicants, that if 

          3           you were to condition those leases subject to local 

          4           zoning at some date certain, within a reasonable 

          5           period of time, that way if they couldn't secure 

          6           the local zoning, that land would immediately come 

          7           back into the state land back, and you wouldn't 

          8           have a 50-year lease sitting out there, effectively 

          9           having some dead property sitting there.

         10                So in closing, I'd like to say that the 

         11           community does support the local fire department, 

         12           and we would welcome the opportunity to work with 

         13           DMS to find out what their actual needs are, and 

         14           absent that, we'd like to see that you make the 

         15           decision in favor of the fire department.  Thank 

         16           you.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         18                MR. GREEN:  The next speaker is David Paulson, 

         19           and he's the fire chief of Miami-Dade.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, Chief.

         21                CHIEF PAULSON:  Thank you for the time 

         22           allowing us to be here.  Before I start, I wanted 

         23           to commend the Governor and your comments.  I know 

         24           Bob Crawford, the work they've done with the 

         25           Florida Forestry.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You guys, too.

          2                CHIEF PAULSON:  They've done a great job.  The 

          3           relationship between local fire departments around 

          4           the State of Florida Forestry is perhaps the very 

          5           best it's ever been, and the operation is almost 

          6           seemly.

          7                You've just done a great job, and we thank you 

          8           for it.  I also want to thank all of your staff.  I 

          9           know this issue has taken a lot of your time, and 

         10           it's a very sensitive issue.  We're aware of that, 

         11           but your staff has been very informative and very 

         12           helpful, and also, above all things, very, very 

         13           professional.

         14                We appreciate that.  You can be very proud of 

         15           how they've acted on this issue.  What I'd like to 

         16           do is, if you don't mind, I'd like to bring Chief 

         17           Tyler Smith, my assistant chief, to give you an 

         18           overview of the project that we're going to do.

         19                We'll keep it very brief, and I'd just like to 

         20           make a very short closing statement because I've 

         21           been around a long time.  I'm a native of Dade 

         22           County and a fifth generation Floridian; so I know 

         23           what the issues are.

         24                Above all things, we want to do what's right 

         25           for our community and what's right for the State of 

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          1           Florida, and we think that our position does that.   

          2           We'd like to show you the project, and then I'd 

          3           like to just close out with a very short maybe half 

          4           a minute or so.

          5                CHIEF SMITH:  Thank you.  Governor Bush, 

          6           Members of the Florida Cabinet, thank you for the 

          7           opportunity to speak to you this morning.  In 

          8           February of this year, Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue 

          9           submitted an application for the lease of the state 

         10           that we're now discussing.

         11                It's our intention to develop this property as 

         12           a fire rescue training facility.  Some of the 

         13           components of a facility of this type will be a 

         14           building for classrooms, labs and staff offices, a 

         15           tower, a multistory computer controlled burn 

         16           building that's environmentally sensitive, 

         17           emergency vehicle operator's course, hazardous 

         18           materials simulation areas, aircraft crash 

         19           simulation areas, MetroRail and people mover rescue 

         20           simulation areas, marine fire fighting, urban 

         21           search and rescue training area and a storage 

         22           warehouse.

         23                (Treasurer Nelson enters room.)

         24                CHIEF SMITH:  The scope of these improvements 

         25           are contemplated as comprehensive, but so is the 

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          1           Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue Department's mission.

          2                (Governor Bush exits room.)

          3                CHIEF SMITH:  We provide structural fire 

          4           suppression, emergency medical service, patient 

          5           transport, mitigation of hazardous materials, 

          6           marine fire fighting, water rescue and confined 

          7           space rescue.

          8                We're designated by FEMA as an urban search 

          9           rescue team, and we're contracted by the United 

         10           States Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance to 

         11           provide training and emergency response throughout 

         12           the world.

         13                To accomplish this mission, we employ 1450 

         14           uniformed firefighters, and over 380 civilian 

         15           administrators and support staff.  We operate 55 

         16           fire rescue stations, and last year responded to 

         17           over 160,000 911 requests for assistance.

         18                Accomplishing our mission safely and 

         19           effectively requires constant training.  Ladies and 

         20           Gentlemen, the Miami-Dade Fire and Rescue 

         21           Department does not have an adequate training 

         22           facility.

         23                Our classrooms consist of several old 

         24           double-wide trailers behind our current 

         25           administration building.  Our field evaluations are 

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          1           practiced at borrowed facilities or in public 

          2           parking lots.

          3                In September of 1994, the voters in Miami-Dade 

          4           County respond to our request for help by 

          5           authorizing the sale of fire rescue district bonds 

          6           for the express purpose of constructing a fire and 

          7           rescue training facility and other fire department 

          8           facilities.

          9                (Governor Bush enters room.)

         10                CHIEF SMITH:  The first series of the bonds 

         11           authorized were sold in March of 1996.  Our search 

         12           for 50 acres of centrally located property led us 

         13           to contact the State in mid-1996 to request the use 

         14           of this referenced property.

         15                This property is adjacent to the fire 

         16           department's new administration headquarters 

         17           thereby increasing its logistical value to us.  The 

         18           proposed use of this property for a fire rescue 

         19           training facility has the endorsement of Miami-Dade 

         20           Mayor Pinellas, Senator Mario Diaz-Balart, the 

         21           five-member elected fire board of Miami-Dade County 

         22           Fire Rescue District, Commissioner Alonso, District 

         23           12 of the Board of County Commissioners, and I'm 

         24           proud to say the unanimous endorsement from the 

         25           West Dade Federation of Home Owners Association 

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          1           represented here by Mr. Jessie Jones.

          2                We believe the use of this property for a fire 

          3           rescue training facility is in the public's 

          4           interest, and we request your favorable 

          5           consideration of our application for a lease for 

          6           this property.  Thank you.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

          8                CHIEF PAULSON:  Thank you, Chief Smith.  We 

          9           understand the issues.  Southern command is right 

         10           next to this property, and we do not feel like 

         11           we're in competition with them at all.  In fact, we 

         12           have an outstanding relationship with Southern 

         13           Command.

         14                Through our urban search and rescue team, the 

         15           grant that funds that, that team also funds our 

         16           training in South America, Central America and the 

         17           Caribbean; so we work hand in hand with the 

         18           Southern Command and their staff.  We also work 

         19           with them on terrorism issues.

         20                At this point, they're also looking to lease 

         21           some space in our new administration because our 

         22           infrastructure is so redundant.  We've worked with 

         23           Southern Command.  We understand the importance of 

         24           them being here in the State of Florida.

         25                They belong here.  They belong in South 

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          1           Florida, and we'll do whatever we can do to make 

          2           sure they stay here for a long, long time; however, 

          3           we are the largest fire department in the 

          4           Southeastern United States, probably one of the 

          5           10th largest in the country, and we do not have a 

          6           training facility.

          7                We have no place to train our firefighters.  I 

          8           lost a firefighter when I first became Fire Chief, 

          9           and I don't want that to happen again.  I want to 

         10           make sure that our people have the best trained 

         11           firefighters and the safest firefighters, and 

         12           provide the best service that we can.

         13                We're also a state resource.  The Florida Task 

         14           Force is under the direction of the Governor, and 

         15           are capable and willing to respond anywhere in the 

         16           state that the Governor sends us; so having said 

         17           that, again we're looking for your consideration 

         18           and your support.  Thank you.

         19                We're here to answer questions, also, if you 

         20           have any.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioners?

         22                TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, other members of 

         23           the Cabinet, although I'd really like to support 

         24           the training facility for fire rescue and believe 

         25           it's a very important project for the community 

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          1           from which I come, we have a previous Governor and 

          2           Cabinet that made a commitment to support the 

          3           relocation of SouthCom.  

          4                It's a very important part of the economy in 

          5           Dade County and a good person to have there, 

          6           SouthCom.  This Cabinet recently approved the use 

          7           of 15 acres on this particular parcel for SouthCom 

          8           to use as a buffer to their headquarter complex.

          9                Due to the fact that the headquarter is 

         10           already located adjacent to this property, it would 

         11           be consistent with previous actions of the Cabinet 

         12           to continue to support the presence of SouthCom at 

         13           this location.

         14                I think if, in a future date, SouthCom 

         15           determines that they will not be able to utilize 

         16           the property, then I would be supportive of a fire 

         17           and rescue training facility on this site.  I think 

         18           it's a good site for that.

         19                That being said, I would like to move that we 

         20           approve the 50-year lease for 5 acres with DMS, and 

         21           set aside for five years the remaining 50 acres for 

         22           the future infrastructure needs of the U.S. 

         23           Southern Command at its current site and revisit 

         24           this issue after five years.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion.  Is there a 

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          1           second?

          2                SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Discussion?  We still have 

          4           other people that need to speak.  I have a question 

          5           to the Chief.  Let's let everybody speak first, and 

          6           then we'll discuss it.

          7                MR. GREEN:  The next speaker would be Brian 

          8           Berkowitz who is assistant general counsel of the 

          9           Department of Juvenile Justice.

         10                TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, I'd like some 

         11           clarification before we go on here.  A member of my 

         12           staff talked to the commanding general at SouthCom, 

         13           and, in essence, the answer was, no, they could not 

         14           commit that they were going to need this land for 

         15           the future.

         16                I'd like to know if General Milligan had any 

         17           kind of conversations with the general down there, 

         18           and what did he find out.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, my conversations 

         20           have been basically along the line that they're not 

         21           prepared at this time to make a commitment.  They 

         22           are in the process of attempting to solidify their 

         23           position on the existing piece of property and 

         24           facility.

         25                Because of the costs and requirements 

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          1           associated with it, that's the point of main effort 

          2           right now; so they are very reluctant about saying, 

          3           hey, we want this, and then, oh, by the way, we 

          4           also want some more.

          5                They're fighting the current set of alligators 

          6           that they have.  I would recommend that we give 

          7           them some time, but I wouldn't give them five 

          8           years.  I would give them some time to try to sort 

          9           out their situation in terms of dealing with the 

         10           current piece of property they have and the 

         11           headquarters, and then see what they might be able 

         12           to commit to in the not too distant future.

         13                I would be happy with maybe waiting six months 

         14           for them to sort out whether they, in fact, have a 

         15           requirement, and if they don't state a requirement 

         16           within six months, then it would go to the 

         17           Miami-Dade Fire Department.  I would not wait five 

         18           years.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tom.

         20                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If I may, we did 

         21           receive a letter directed to Colleen Castille from 

         22           Enterprise Florida reiterating the alliance that 

         23           they have with Enterprise Florida, which is the 

         24           Florida Defense Alliance, and that letter basically 

         25           says that Florida's military presence has a 

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          1           significant impact on the Florida economy, and the 

          2           Alliance has placed great importance on retaining 

          3           the United States Southern Command, SouthCom 

          4           Miami-Dade.

          5                While the projects being proposed are 

          6           undoubtedly important, they should be considered 

          7           with the realization that any occupation of the 

          8           lands surrounding SouthCom may impact its long-term 

          9           presence in Florida.

         10                They go on to say that the State of Florida 

         11           has made a commitment to SouthCom's presence in 

         12           South Florida, and at the present time has made no 

         13           plans for expansion; however, it is important that 

         14           the State continue to make land available for 

         15           future needs of the U.S. Southern Command.

         16                If we ration out excessive additional 

         17           property, limitations may be placed on any future 

         18           plans for expansion/retention of SouthCom.  It is 

         19           the Alliance's attempt to support SouthCom's 

         20           presence and its impact of our state.  This comes 

         21           from the senior vice president of strategic 

         22           resources.

         23                I don't know -- I mean, I picked five years 

         24           because I know decisions made in federal government 

         25           when it comes to things like SouthCom don't come 

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          1           very fast, and I'm very supportive of seeing to it 

          2           that Miami-Dade has a good training facility, and I 

          3           recognize that importance.

          4                At the same time, I wouldn't want to go 

          5           against the commitment that the Cabinet has made in 

          6           the past to SouthCom.  I don't think Miami-Dade or 

          7           anybody else wants to lose SouthCom.  I'm sure 

          8           Miami-Dade Fire Department doesn't want to lose 

          9           them either.

         10                Maybe there's some compromise between six 

         11           months and five years.  I'm not locked into five 

         12           years.  I picked that because my gut says that 

         13           decisions are pretty slow at least on -- and on 

         14           SouthCom, it's been reasonably slow.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's been -- right now, 

         16           General, we are fighting in the Congress to keep 

         17           SouthCom here to, in essence, turn this into a 

         18           permanent expanding facility.  Any reasonable 

         19           person looking at it from a strategic point of view 

         20           would have to concur that this location is the 

         21           obvious choice for Southern Command, but, as you 

         22           know, logic anxious and reasonableness as it 

         23           relates to who gets what in the military budget is 

         24           secondary to who has what influence.

         25                I think we need to send a very strong signal.  

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          1           Again, the timing issue is one that we can discuss, 

          2           but we need to send a strong signal that not only 

          3           are we happy with the current facility, but that we 

          4           have made a commitment on a long-term basis to show 

          5           our support for SouthCom which jives with the 

          6           previous Cabinet's decision, and it's also good 

          7           common sense.

          8                I would hope that this could be -- we could 

          9           find -- I don't know if there's 50 acres left in 

         10           Dade County.  I haven't been there in the last 

         11           year, probably all gobbled up, but I would hope 

         12           that -- you can't find 50 acres for Southcom.  It 

         13           has to be adjacent to them if they're going to 

         14           expand.

         15                Hopefully we could find some accommodation, 

         16           but I think we need to -- my personal opinion is we 

         17           need to make a strong commitment to this incredible 

         18           asset for our state just as we've done for other 

         19           military bases as we prepare for further downsizing 

         20           and cuts in anticipation of the BRAC, the Base 

         21           Relocation and whatever it's called, Closure.  It's 

         22           another acronym.

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I won't disagree with 

         24           that comment at all.  I agree with you fully, and 

         25           certainly having a unified command of SouthCom's 

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          1           stature in South Florida is a very positive thing 

          2           for us nationally and internationally, but I'm a 

          3           little reluctant to lock it up to five years.

          4                Perhaps a better way is to really just 

          5           postpone the decision on what we do with the 55 

          6           acres.  Go ahead and move on the basis of the 5 

          7           acres for DMS probably with the contingency subject 

          8           to the zoning, but nevertheless, hold onto the 

          9           other 55 acres and just postpone our decision for a 

         10           period of time, and I threw out six months only 

         11           because the budget cycle ought to be complete there 

         12           in --

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can we do it for two budget 

         14           cycles?

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.  I'll do it 

         16           for two budget cycles.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Maybe with a new 

         18           administration and new senators and all sorts of 

         19           things --

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  All right.  18 months, 

         21           2 years?

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Two years would be better.

         23                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Can we get a 

         24           commitment as to two potential senators?

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So I would amend the 

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          1           Commissioner's proposal that we not do it for five 

          2           years, but rather do it for two years, grant the 5 

          3           acres to DMS, which I think was in his original 

          4           proposal, and then take a look at it in two years.

          5                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'll second the 

          6           motion.

          7                SECRETARY HARRIS:  You said and the General 

          8           said, of course, you know very well the timing, but 

          9           as we're looking strategically to South America and 

         10           the Caribbean, whether it's through drug 

         11           interdiction training or stabilizing an economy, 

         12           SouthCom is absolutely crucial.

         13                It's not just a matter of strategics, and as, 

         14           Governor, as you said, this isn't always the most 

         15           thoughtful process.  Sometimes it ends up being 

         16           politics, and we are certainly in danger of losing 

         17           SouthCom to Florida politics; so anything we can do 

         18           to continue to stabilize and give them more 

         19           flexibility is absolutely crucial to the community.

         20                It creates over $150 million through salaries 

         21           to aides, to the government, and to aides, their 

         22           aides, and then the community benefits as well, 

         23           those four contracts; so we had a letter from the 

         24           Chamber of Commerce stating how crucial it is to 

         25           the area.

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          1                On the other hand, with regard to the 

          2           firefighters, as the Governor said, 50 acres may be 

          3           difficult to find, and two years may put them at -- 

          4           may be too long, but to the extent that we can do 

          5           anything to help assist in that search for 

          6           additional land.

          7                I know the requirements are necessary and 

          8           quite worthy.  We think the world of firefighters; 

          9           so anything we can do to help assist in that 

         10           property search in the meantime would be important.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  General, I just want to make 

         12           sure that -- if I could read the motion and see if 

         13           you concur with this.  To approve the 50-year lease 

         14           for 5 acres with the Department of Management 

         15           Services and set aside for two years the remaining 

         16           50 acres for the future infrastructure needs of the 

         17           U.S. Southern Command at its current site, and 

         18           revisit the issue after two years.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Not later than two 

         20           years.  I think we ought to expect Southern Command 

         21           to come up on the wires as soon as they can 

         22           identify a requirement if they have one, or not 

         23           identify one if they don't have one.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Revisit the issue not later 

         25           than two years?

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          1                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I would guess 

          3           that we won't have to remind ourselves.  Hopefully 

          4           Miami-Dade Fire Department will be right here in 

          5           two years and say we're ready.

          6                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I would also -- 

          7           to echo the Governor and the Secretary of State's 

          8           comments, we ought to work hard to find them a 

          9           suitable site for their training facility.  I can't 

         10           believe that we can't find one, obviously not 

         11           adjacent to their administrative building.  We 

         12           ought to find them a suitable site if we put our 

         13           efforts to it.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Put it next to that casino out 

         15           there.  General Butterworth thinks it's illegal,   

         16           so --

         17                TREASURER NELSON:  They really do need a site, 

         18           and they need it now so they can go ahead and build 

         19           this state-of-the-art fire training facility.  They 

         20           have the responsibility, for a lot of the fire 

         21           organizations all over South Florida, to help train 

         22           them, and they really do need this facility; so I 

         23           would concur, gentlemen.

         24                We need to try to look at surplus federal or 

         25           state property and see if we can't help the 

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          1           Miami-Dade Fire Department.

          2                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Why don't we just ask 

          3           the DEP to do just that, get on with it, and find 

          4           them a suitable site?

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments?

          6                MR. GREEN:  Governor, if I may, just to  

          7           clarify the motion.  The way we've interpreted that 

          8           for the minutes will be that we've deferred action 

          9           for two years on the decision on whether Miami-Dade 

         10           Fire and Rescue can use the site, and we're going 

         11           to deny the request from Juvenile Justice to use 25 

         12           acres on the site and approve the DMS request for 5 

         13           acres.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.  Can it be worded in a 

         15           way that is a proactive statement of support for 

         16           SouthCom?  I mean, this is not doing nothing.  This 

         17           is a proactive statement, that should they come and 

         18           make an assessment that they do need this, that we 

         19           would act proactively to sign off on the lease.

         20                MR. GREEN:  Yes, sir.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's the point.  If we're 

         22           not doing that, then we might as well accommodate 

         23           it for a very good use that's the current need as 

         24           well.

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, that's what the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           motion said.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

          3                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I would just say, at 

          4           the same time, if there is a significant negative 

          5           development on SouthCom, either something that we 

          6           don't want or they don't need the land sooner than 

          7           two years, nothing would prohibit us from coming 

          8           back quicker and readdressing the firefighters.

          9                MR. GREEN:  We still have two speakers that 

         10           would like to speak.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They still want to speak?

         12                TREASURER NELSON:  The problem is -- If I 

         13           could just say to the Commissioner of Agriculture 

         14           -- that Miami-Dade Fire Department wait two years.   

         15           They need a facility, and so if we are going to put 

         16           this off in deference to SouthCom for two years, we 

         17           need to proactively go out and try to find 

         18           something for Miami-Dade.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I agree with that 100 

         20           percent.

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Do they have any 

         22           other sites that are sort of in their scope?

         23                CHIEF PAULSON:  As you-all are well aware, 

         24           finding 50 acres inside the boundary line in Dade 

         25           County is -- if you can find it, it's very, very 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           expensive.  We found a couple of sites outside the 

          2           boundary line, but the problem is they're in the 

          3           oil fields, and that really limits what we can do.

          4                We'd appreciate any help we can get from the 

          5           State of helping us locate a piece of property, and 

          6           we will work with you very closely.  We really 

          7           understand the need to keep SouthCom in Miami-Dade 

          8           County.  It's where it belongs, and we support that 

          9           100 percent.

         10                We didn't think our using the property for a 

         11           training facility impacted that, but if you-all 

         12           think it does, then obviously, we'll support that.   

         13           I think Mr. Nelson adequately pointed out that we 

         14           have to do something soon.

         15                We've been operating without a training 

         16           facility for way too long, and we have the money.   

         17           I have $23 million sitting in the bank ready to 

         18           build this facility and develop it, and that's 

         19           money into the economy also; so we need to move on 

         20           it.  I appreciate you-all --

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Is there other 

         22           state-owned land that you're aware of that's in 

         23           Dade County?

         24                CHIEF PAULSON:  Not every sub-parameters.   

         25           With each sub-parameters are centrally located -- 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           you know, our 55 stations are spread across 2,000 

          2           square miles.  We need something that's close to 

          3           expressways where we can move equipment without 

          4           keeping them out of service too long, but again, we 

          5           can hopefully work with your people to --

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  What kind of facility 

          7           does Broward have?

          8                CHIEF PAULSON:  Broward has something that's 

          9           similar to Miami-Dade which is really inadequate 

         10           for our type of training.  They do a lot of 

         11           training of recruits, and they do a lot of training 

         12           with shipboard firefighters, bringing people in to 

         13           teach them some minimum skills.

         14                We don't have access to the day-to-day use of 

         15           either one of those facilities.  Right now we're 

         16           sending our airport firefighters to Texas to get 

         17           their one live fire drill the FAA requires, and 

         18           it's not even enough.

         19                We have to put them on airplanes and send them 

         20           to Texas to do a live fire drill and fly them back 

         21           home again.  It's just not -- obviously not 

         22           efficient to do that.  We should be doing it at 

         23           home, and they should be having more than one live 

         24           fire a year; so there's a definite need there, and 

         25           we have to do something.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  A few years ago there 

          2           was this big push for a Wayne's World.  Does 

          3           someone remember that?  Dade County wanted us to 

          4           give them land.  I don't know where that is, but it 

          5           might be something that could be looked into.

          6                CHIEF PAULSON:  It's on I-75 and the turnpike.

          7                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But there's access to 

          8           it and -- I mean, that's something that ought to be 

          9           looked into maybe.  I'm just throwing that out.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments?  We have a 

         11           motion and a second.  All in favor say aye.

         12                (Affirmative response.)

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         14                (No response.)

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The motion passes.

         16                MR. TAIT:  I just wanted to say two sentences.  

         17           I want to say, thanks, number one, and I think it's 

         18           very important for the Cabinet to be aware of the 

         19           fact that the indication of the support from the 

         20           State is probably the most singularly important 

         21           thing to obtain the $42 million which we are 

         22           attempting to get through appropriations, and it 

         23           will be approximately two years before that funding 

         24           comes about so that a commitment could be made by 

         25           SouthCom with a formal request.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                General, you are more aware than anyone how 

          2           this procedure works.  SouthCom cannot take a 

          3           position at this time, but it's unbelievably 

          4           important that this land be preserved for this 

          5           funding which will give them the opportunity to 

          6           remain in South Florida.

          7                Secretary Harris is well aware.  There is a 

          8           major effort for another state and a very powerful 

          9           senator to try to get it out of Florida, and 

         10           believe me, this is a very important indication 

         11           very important to SouthCom that they remain.

         12                General Wilhelm is very much in favor of this, 

         13           so you should be aware of it.  I thank you very 

         14           much.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         16                MR. GREEN:  Governor, Mr. Jones has a 

         17           recommendation on a possible resolution.

         18                MR. JONES:  Governor and Staff, this is just 

         19           as I sat in the audience.  This might help Mr. 

         20           Tait.  Perhaps he should look into it.  I have some 

         21           friends in the FAA, and the FAA owns property, 

         22           approximately 180 acres immediately contiguous to 

         23           this.

         24                Right now there's a big move in Washington to 

         25           get the military to release some of the GPS 

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          1           technology, based on what I've been told, and 

          2           significantly alter the requirement for property on 

          3           the FAA Site.  That's federal land.

          4                That's about 180 acres; so I would suggest 

          5           that in your pursuit to make sure that SouthCom is 

          6           well received on the part of our state, that you 

          7           look into that and maybe set an initiative in 

          8           motion to perhaps accelerate that.  That certainly 

          9           would speak to the issue and all the needs of 

         10           SouthCom for a long time to come.  Thank you.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         12                MR. GREEN:  Substitute Item 4 is request for 

         13           approval of two perpetual conservation easements to 

         14           the City of Tallahassee to restrict the future 

         15           development on 13.8 and 2.37 acres of the San Luis 

         16           Archaeological and Historic Site.

         17                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         18                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         20           objection, it's approved.

         21                MR. GREEN:  Item 5, there's been an exchange 

         22           between the Department of Juvenile Justice and City 

         23           of Jacksonville.

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:    Motion.

         25                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          2           objection, it's approved.

          3                MR. GREEN:  Item 6, option agreement to 

          4           acquire 665.28 acres in Charlotte Harbor Flatwoods 

          5           CARL Project.

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

          7                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          9           objection, it's approved.

         10                MR. GREEN:  Item 7 is consideration of an 

         11           option agreement to acquire 316.75 acres for the 

         12           benefit of the Department of Corrections.  We have 

         13           speakers on that item.  Svenn?

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is everybody speaking in favor 

         15           or in opposition?

         16                MR. GREEN:  This is in opposition then 

         17           followed by Ron Moss and Grace Francis.

         18                MR. LINDSKOLD:  Thank you.  Governor and 

         19           Members, good morning.  Thank you.  I'm here not to 

         20           talk about prisons particularly, but to talk about 

         21           land --

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  Just for our 

         23           edification and, at least, my edification, who are 

         24           you and representing what?

         25                MR. LINDSKOLD:  My name is Svenn Lindskold.   

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           I'm representing Save our Suwannee, Incorporated.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

          3                MR. LINDSKOLD:  We've been interested in this 

          4           property for quite a number of years, and we're 

          5           interested in it because of the quality of property 

          6           of the wet area of the property.  Perhaps your 

          7           staff has shown you this illustration, but this is 

          8           the acreage right here that's being considered.

          9                This is U.S. 90.  Live Oak is over here, and 

         10           Wellborn is over here.  This is a huge cypress 

         11           wetland with very mature huge trees.  These are 

         12           isolated wetlands.  This wetland area here is the 

         13           head borders of Rocky Creek which is a creek which 

         14           runs north from the property approximately 8 miles 

         15           to the Suwannee River, which, as you know, is a 

         16           troubled river in terms of pollution.

         17                These down here indicate very wet isolated 

         18           wetlands.  If you walk the property, most of the 

         19           character of the property is as a wet property.   

         20           That's really why we're here, because we feel that 

         21           it is a quality piece of property which shouldn't 

         22           be subjected to the intense use that is being 

         23           proposed by the Department of Corrections.

         24                A prison in Suwannee County is not what we're 

         25           objecting to.  What we're objecting to is the use 

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          1           of this particular land.  One might wonder, given 

          2           the location of the land in the Suwannee River 

          3           Water Management District, why the Water Management 

          4           District hasn't taken steps to acquire this land.

          5                I think the answer is -- I cannot speak for 

          6           them.  I think the answer is that their policy so 

          7           far has been to acquire property in the floodplain 

          8           along the Suwannee and the Santa Fe River, and they 

          9           have shelved, for the time being, these kinds of 

         10           properties.

         11                They now are taking action to acquire property 

         12           along Falling Creek, which is another tributary of 

         13           the Suwannee, and so perhaps they will soon take 

         14           interest in this.  What I'm saying is that if this 

         15           is to be publicly-owned property, the best public 

         16           purpose of this would be in terms of wetland water 

         17           quality protection and so on.

         18                The site plan that has been presented by DOC 

         19           is a second try at fitting an institution in on 

         20           this acreage.  The first try had to be rejected 

         21           because of the destruction of wetlands and the 

         22           discovery that that destruction of wetlands could 

         23           not be mitigated within the Rocky Creek watershed 

         24           which is the requirement.

         25                So they came back with a plan which reduces 

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          1           the size of the facility and reduces the emphasis 

          2           of the facility, and only they can talk about their 

          3           change in mission, if you will, for the facility.

          4                This new plan, the second version, results in 

          5           very, very tight use of the property.  Minimum 

          6           setbacks of 25 feet from the wet areas are 

          7           provided.  Fences are provided; so we have the 

          8           little wet areas and the big wet areas all fenced 

          9           off like wild animals in a zoo, and it doesn't 

         10           leave any room for expansion.  They just choke the 

         11           property.

         12                (Attorney General Butterworth exits room.)

         13                MR. LINDSKOLD:  There's lots of vacant 

         14           property in Suwannee County, and it seems to land 

         15           on one of the most wet areas which has important 

         16           purposes in the Suwannee Basin.  It's just an 

         17           inappropriate thing.

         18                It's the wrong public message, and we would 

         19           urge that perhaps purchased for preservation be 

         20           more important than purchased for use for an 

         21           intense and a dense facility such as this one.  The 

         22           neighboring areas immediately neighboring this 

         23           particular site are similarly wet.

         24                There are many lakes in the area.  There are 

         25           other creeks.  The larger picture that you can make 

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          1           of the facility, the more wet areas are 

          2           encompassed; so once again, it would be fine for 

          3           Suwannee County to proceed on a Department of 

          4           Corrections' project, but they should not do it at 

          5           this particular site.  Thanks for your attention.   

          6           Any questions?

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We may have some questions 

          8           after we get the other speakers --

          9                MR. LINDSKOLD:  Thank you.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- unless you-all have 

         11           questions.

         12                (No response.)

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         14                MR. GREEN:  Governor, the next speaker, before 

         15           we take any of the rest of the opponents, I didn't 

         16           know we had the chairman of the Suwannee County 

         17           Commission here, Donald Odum.

         18                MR. ODUM:  Governor and the rest of the 

         19           Cabinet.  Governor, I'm going to tell you the last 

         20           time I was here I called you Honorable Governor --

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They laughed.

         22                MR. ODUM:  -- and they laughed, so I'm saying 

         23           Governor this time and Cabinet.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I remember when you were here 

         25           last.  It was another long day too.

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          1                MR. ODUM:  I'd like to say the Suwannee County 

          2           Commissioners are 100 percent behind this project, 

          3           and we do think we have a good spot for the project 

          4           and had very little opposition when we had the 

          5           meeting.

          6                We need the jobs.  You know farming is about a 

          7           thing in the past in Suwannee County.  Former 

          8           Senator Charles Williams started this project in 

          9           about 1991 when he was a County Commissioner, and 

         10           we fully support this.

         11                We think we have a good place, and we 

         12           appreciate anything you can do for us.  Thank you.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, chairman.

         14                (Secretary Harris exits room.)

         15                MR. GREEN:  Now, Mr. Moss.

         16                MR. MOSS:  Governor Bush, Members of the 

         17           Cabinet, my name is Ron Moss.  I do reside in 

         18           Suwannee County.  First, and for the record, I am 

         19           opposed to the construction of a state prison 

         20           facility in Suwannee County on this site of 

         21           reference, and quite frankly, I'm just a teeny bit 

         22           confused as to what we're going to end up 

         23           accomplishing here today relative to the DEP's 

         24           participation in funding the purchase of the site.

         25                In other words, DEP, I guess, was to refund 

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          1           $156,000 to Suwannee County, and Suwannee County, 

          2           of course, went ahead and purchased the prison and 

          3           used $156,000 in unbudgeted funds for that project; 

          4           so I guess one of the objectives, as far as 

          5           Suwannee County is concerned, is to recover that 

          6           $156,000.

          7                Quite frankly, I'm for that.  Next, we're 

          8           talking about building a prison on a piece of land 

          9           that in my estimation is questionable 

         10           environmentally.  In addition to that, I feel the 

         11           site -- the plan for the site has limitations as 

         12           far as expansion is concerned.

         13                I think that's one of the things that DOC 

         14           should look at, is can they expand on the site 

         15           that's in place.  Next, of major concern, I would 

         16           feel would be a labor force.  In paying attention 

         17           to the ads that the local facilities generate 

         18           occasionally, there's a demand for labor to keep 

         19           the prisons that are in the area adequately 

         20           staffed.

         21                If we add a prison in Suwannee County, well, 

         22           we're going to have lateral transfers, of course, 

         23           but as far as additional jobs in the county, most 

         24           of the folks, in my estimation, that are now -- 

         25           that want to work for a prison are now working for 

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          1           one of the local facilities in the area; so I have 

          2           a feeling we would dry up some of the resources 

          3           from the other areas if we do build a facility 

          4           there.

          5                Next, I'd like to, just to show you and make 

          6           reference to my continued objection to this 

          7           project, give you a little chronological order as 

          8           to some of the events that have taken place.

          9                In January of '94, the Suwannee County Board 

         10           of Adjustments unanimously rejected the zoning 

         11           change on this property, rejected it.  Then the 

         12           county commissioners, as they can do, came back and 

         13           overruled the decision.  That was a 4-to-1 vote.   

         14           As time goes long, the Department of Community 

         15           Affairs, of course, was involved.

         16                (Attorney General Butterworth enters room.)

         17                MR. MOSS:  The comp plan, according to them, 

         18           was in order.  Then, at a given point like in June 

         19           of '95, a bunch of petitioners led by myself -- I 

         20           hired an attorney, Edmond Browning, over in 

         21           Madison, and we asked for an administrative 

         22           hearing.

         23                (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)

         24                MR. MOSS:  Long story short, the Hearing 

         25           Officer ruled in favor of the plan change.  There 

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          1           was an interesting article that surfaced in one of 

          2           the local papers relative to Suwannee River Water 

          3           Management District Report.

          4                An engineer for water management made a 

          5           comment relative to this site:  "The only way to 

          6           develop that site is to lower the water table which 

          7           is impractical."  I think he still has his job.

          8                In either case, to show you some of the 

          9           negatives that have surfaced from other areas, I 

         10           sent a fax over to the Cabinet aides -- I believe 

         11           it was Friday -- and I would like to share that 

         12           with you at the risk of being a little bit 

         13           redundant perhaps.

         14                I wish to confirm to the Cabinet, citing as 

         15           the Board of Trustees of the Internal Improvement, 

         16           on my continued opposition to the location of the 

         17           prison facility to be operated by the DOC on lands 

         18           in Suwannee County, Florida, consisting of 

         19           approximately 316 acres located on the south side 

         20           of U.S. Highway 90, approximately 70 miles East of 

         21           the City of Live Oak.

         22                I have consistently opposed the location of 

         23           this facility since 1993 when Suwannee County 

         24           entered into an option agreement to acquire the 

         25           property.  My opposition is focused primarily on 

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          1           the particular location and not to the construction 

          2           of a correctional facility in Suwannee County.

          3                I have made my objections known to the Board 

          4           of County Commissioners in Suwannee County and 

          5           attempted to present those facts which I thought 

          6           were relevant and significant in the site selection 

          7           process.  Candidly, I believe that Board was 

          8           persuaded by certain erroneous factual assumptions, 

          9           but more importantly by the strong desire to create 

         10           job opportunities for the citizens of the county.

         11                (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)

         12                MR. MOSS:  While I support the creation of 

         13           jobs in Suwannee County, I do not believe that 

         14           positive economic impact of such outweighs the 

         15           other considerations as to this location.  

         16                A number of other possible sites exist within 

         17           Suwannee County which would be more suitable and 

         18           less objectionable to surrounding property owners.   

         19           There are significant environmental issues with 

         20           respect to this particular site.

         21                Persons more qualified to deal with this issue 

         22           should inform the Cabinet of these concerns.   

         23           Suffice it to say it is existing wetlands, as well 

         24           as the headwaters of the creek system that are 

         25           located on this property, and development of it 

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          1           will certainly have an impact on the environment.

          2                My opposition to this site included a 

          3           challenge to the change in the comprehensive land 

          4           use plan with Suwannee County.  My challenge 

          5           commenced in '94 when a plan amendment was adopted 

          6           and included a petition to the Department of 

          7           Community Affairs alleging that the plan was not in 

          8           compliance with the provisions of Florida law.   

          9           After hearings -- of course, we went through that.

         10                At this hearing, the issue was raised before 

         11           the Board of County Commissioners that it had a 

         12           conflict of interest, as the purchaser from the 

         13           applicant, and could not rule impartially on the 

         14           issues presented.

         15                The objection was ignored, and the County 

         16           proceeded to grant the special permit exception, 

         17           and thereafter closed on the purchase price of the 

         18           property; so gentlemen, that sums up my objection 

         19           to this.  I have in the past, of course, objected 

         20           then and will continue to do so.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We appreciate your comments.

         22                MR. MOSS:  Thank you very much for your time.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, sir.

         24                MR. GREEN:  Grace Francis.

         25                MS. FRANCIS:  Thank you, Governor, and Members 

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          1           of the Cabinet.  My name is Grace Francis, and I'm 

          2           here speaking on behalf of Clean Water Network.  We 

          3           are an organization that represents over 100 

          4           organizations across the state, and we want to 

          5           speak in opposition to this proposal.

          6                We urge you to deny this prison from being 

          7           built at the headwaters of Rocky Creek.  The site 

          8           endangers the surrounding wetlands, and Rocky Creek 

          9           is tributary of the Suwannee River.  The Suwannee 

         10           river is an outstanding Florida waterway and is 

         11           already impaired for a number of reasons.

         12                It is impaired for nutrients, dissolved 

         13           oxygen, coliforms and turbidity, and the 

         14           destruction of the wetlands at the headwaters of 

         15           Rocky Creek will further lower the water quality 

         16           downstream.

         17                (Secretary Harris enters room.)

         18                MS. FRANCIS:  We urge the Department of 

         19           Corrections, and the County to find another site to 

         20           build a prison that would not have the detrimental 

         21           environmental impact that building on this site 

         22           would have.  Thank you.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         24                MR. GREEN:  Governor, we have staff from the 

         25           Department of Corrections, if you have questions of 

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          1           them, and additional people from the County if you 

          2           have other questions of the County.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.  I'm sure we do have 

          4           questions.  General.

          5                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  From my notes 

          6           here it says that the engineers from the Department 

          7           of Corrections assert that the wetlands will not be 

          8           impacted.  Could somebody come up here and say 

          9           whether that's accurate or not, and if it is 

         10           accurate, why you say it is.

         11                MR. PREVATT:  Good morning, my name is Jimmy 

         12           Prevatt.  I'm a private lawyer in Live Oak with the 

         13           firm, Sellers & Prevatt.  I'm here on behalf of 

         14           Suwannee County this morning and with the 

         15           Department of Corrections.

         16                With me is Don Esry.  He's from the facilities 

         17           over there in DOC, and we can answer those 

         18           questions.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can the Department of 

         20           Environmental Protection also validate this?

         21                MR. ESRY:  I will address the environmental 

         22           issue.  This is a colored map that we used at the 

         23           special use permitting process that the Department 

         24           went through with Mr. Prevatt last October.  This 

         25           was the last part of the comprehensive plan 

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          1           process.

          2                (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)

          3                MR. ESRY:  First, the County rezoned it.  They 

          4           amended the comp plan.  In rezoning this for public 

          5           use, they had a requirement for a public -- a 

          6           special use permit to be issued.  This was the site 

          7           plan that was prepared and presented before several 

          8           hundred people in a middle school in Live Oak last 

          9           October.

         10                These two blue areas are very nice wetlands 

         11           that are along Highway 90.  This is being spoken of 

         12           as the headwater of Rocky Creek.  Actually, this is 

         13           one of many headwaters.  I've got some aerials that 

         14           I can show that will show this is just a small part 

         15           of one of the parts where Rocky Creek starts.  We 

         16           have no construction within 100 feet of any of the 

         17           different wetlands on the property.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Those are wetlands that exist 

         19           in its natural state?

         20                MR. ESRY:  The rectangular ones are the ones 

         21           that we will make to treat the stormwater.  The 

         22           irregular, round-shaped ones are the natural ones.  

         23           One of the things that was mentioned was that we 

         24           had to redesign the property.  That is correct.

         25                Once the Department of Environmental 

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          1           Protection and the Corps of Engineers did their 

          2           wetland surveys, there were more wetlands than we 

          3           anticipated what we envisioned there was on the 

          4           property.

          5                We did a total redesign so we could stay out 

          6           of our wetlands.  We had to have a 

          7           no-dredge-and-fill permit.  This is a very 

          8           important thing.  We're staying a minimum of 100 

          9           feet from all wetlands on the property.

         10                It's been alleged there's no room for 

         11           expansion.  That is not correct.  The first phase 

         12           we will build will be this 1500-bed facility here.  

         13           We had to show everything that we wanted to ever do 

         14           on the property; so ultimately we can build another 

         15           1500-bed facility, and approximately a 

         16           250-to-280-bed work camp if we ever get some more 

         17           inmates that are such that we can put them in a 

         18           work camp.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  When is the construction of 

         20           the prison planned?

         21                MR. ESRY:  This is envisioned -- we're hoping 

         22           to -- or envisioning going to the Legislature for 

         23           the money to actually build this in the year 2002 

         24           or 3.  Right now the Department does not have any 

         25           land in the system, virgin land that can be used 

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          1           for a prison.

          2                This would be our only site to have counted.   

          3           Banked maybe is the right word to use; so that if 

          4           more inmates should suddenly start coming into the 

          5           system and we'd have to speed up the building 

          6           process, we'd have something to fall back on.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well.  That's not completely 

          8           true in that, can't you expand existing facilities?

          9                MR. ESRY:  Yes, sir, but I don't have any 

         10           undeveloped virgin land.  Sometimes the Legislature 

         11           wants us to build a new one, and sometimes they 

         12           want to expand an existing one.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

         14                MR. ESRY:  That's their wisdom, not mine, but 

         15           we don't have any other land that's vacant right 

         16           now.

         17                MR. PREVATT:  One of the questions was on the 

         18           design, whether the wetland areas would be fenced 

         19           in, and the areas will not be fenced.  There is a 

         20           fence that would be designed to go around the 

         21           corrections facility itself located right here.

         22                I think what they were concerned about was 

         23           whether or not there would be fencing across the 

         24           wetlands.  There actually would be additional 

         25           fencing, which would be a 3 hog-wire -- 3 barbwire, 

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          1           hog-wire fence that would go around the exterior 

          2           right here.

          3                Where the property is located in Suwannee 

          4           County is one of the least developed areas in the 

          5           county.  We presented it at the land use hearing 

          6           and for the special use permit, all where the 

          7           building activity had been located in Suwannee 

          8           County in the last five years.  This was the least 

          9           populous or building area.

         10                You'll see all around these areas, if you look 

         11           at the aerial photographs here.

         12                MR. ESRY:  The property that we're proposing 

         13           to develop is in this black square.  The wetlands 

         14           that are bogged are the headwaters, more or less, 

         15           of Rocky Creek of this little tributary here which 

         16           comes along.

         17                Other tributaries are here.  Here's one.  

         18           Here's some.  There's lots that form up and end up 

         19           draining into Rocky Creek, and we're about 10 miles 

         20           from the Suwannee River.  Our impact is very 

         21           minimal.

         22                We have gone through the permitting process 

         23           with the Suwannee River Water Management District 

         24           to have the permits that we need.  We've had to do 

         25           lots of studies.  One of the very unusual things 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           that the Water Managment District required us to do 

          2           was not only prove we were not going to increase 

          3           the runoff, which is usually the usual thing that 

          4           we have to address, but in this case, we had to 

          5           prove we were not going to decrease the runoff 

          6           either because they did not want us drying the 

          7           wetlands up.

          8                That was difficult to prove, but we've been 

          9           through that process.  The engineers did the 

         10           calculations.  I'm satisfied we're not going to 

         11           impact the wetlands.  We've proposed no filling.   

         12           No activity to take place in any of the wetland on 

         13           the property.  We will not fence up the beavers 

         14           that might want to go under Highway 90.

         15                MR. PREVATT:  This particular area, the 

         16           320-acre site, the property to the east and to the 

         17           south of this piece are owned by timber companies 

         18           and other private individuals, about 3,000 acres 

         19           going around it that is undeveloped being used as a 

         20           hunting camp and just timber/pine land.

         21                Again, why they wanted to have fencing on the 

         22           south side of the property right here is because it 

         23           is used as hunting property, and as you can 

         24           imagine, DOC people employees there are a little 

         25           uneasy whenever somebody steps out of the woods 

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          1           with a gun next to one of the facilities down here, 

          2           so that's all that would be down here, would be the 

          3           hog wire fence.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, it's a prison.  By 

          5           definition, you're going to have fences.  I think 

          6           you have to have -- I hope --

          7                MR. ESRY:  The big, bad fences are going to be 

          8           in the middle of the property right at the housing 

          9           areas, not out on the property line.

         10                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I understand, 

         11           Governor, from the director that the County did 

         12           have their comp plan amended, and it did go through 

         13           DCA.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Same county?

         15                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Same county.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Someone had to appeal it.

         17                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes.

         18                MR. ESRY:  We looked at 16 sites throughout 

         19           the county, and all of them will end up draining 

         20           sooner or later in the Suwannee River.  We felt 

         21           this was the best of the 16 sites that the County 

         22           made available to us.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there anybody from the 

         24           Department of Environmental Protection that could 

         25           answer the question about the headwater issue and 

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          1           the wetlands just to get it confirmed.  No 

          2           disrespect to the Department of Corrections.

          3                But, you know, we count on you guys to keep 

          4           the bad guys behind bars, and we count on the 

          5           Department of Environmental Protection to advise us 

          6           on these issues.

          7                MR. GREEN:  We haven't looked at that, 

          8           Governor.  That permit is issued through the Water 

          9           Management District; so they would have handled the 

         10           wetland permits on that.  We will look at other 

         11           permits, the wastewater permits, so we have not 

         12           verified --

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  And from the Water Management 

         14           District, is anybody here?

         15                MR. GREEN:  No, sir.

         16                MR. LINDSKOLD:  Governor, I certainly am not 

         17           part of the Water Management District, but I did 

         18           sit in on the planning process.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Come up here if you're going 

         20           to speak, please, sir.  Did they grant the permit, 

         21           or did they --

         22                MR. LINDSKOLD:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.  Yes, 

         23           indeed, they granted the permit.  They had limited 

         24           regulations.  They could not consider secondary 

         25           impacts due to the nature of certain legal 

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          1           requirements, secondary impacts, meaning not direct 

          2           effluent going into the wetlands.

          3                It was a very difficult permit for them to 

          4           work on.  They worked very extensively on this, and 

          5           to say that this is the only available site they 

          6           have, which is one of the lowest, wettest and 

          7           so-forth sites in the county, is -- I find that 

          8           kind of ingenious.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Kirby?

         10                MR. GREEN:  Yes, sir.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  As I understand it, this 

         12           property, the design of the prison was modified to 

         13           meet the needs to accommodate the concerns of the 

         14           wetlands; is that right?

         15                MR. GREEN:  That's our understanding, yes, 

         16           sir.  They've backed off from the wetlands 100 feet 

         17           from all of them on the site.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I have a question for 

         19           the Department of Corrections custody gentlemen.   

         20           Did I understand you to say that there's no 

         21           requirement for these beds, and there is no money 

         22           to build them?

         23                MR. ESRY:  At this time, that's correct.

         24                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No requirement and no 

         25           money?

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          1                MR. ESRY:  Yes, sir.  When we began this 

          2           process in 1993, we were in a real crunch to build 

          3           then.

          4                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I understand, but as we 

          5           stand here right now, there is no requirement and 

          6           no money.  I think it was Mr. Moss -- I might not 

          7           have the gentleman's name correct.  He made a 

          8           statement in reference to a $156,000 refund.  I 

          9           would like you to clarify that for me.

         10                MR. MOSS:  I'm sure that the chairman could 

         11           give you a little more detail on that.  I think I 

         12           do have the figures with me, but the total purchase 

         13           price was like $336,000, total price.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  This is not a refund, 

         15           per se, but a contribution by the State for 

         16           purchase.

         17                MR. MOSS:  Yes.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Fine.  So no 

         19           requirement and no money.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, the refund is an issue 

         21           because if we don't approve this, I'm sure the 

         22           County can come and say, the State needs to 

         23           purchase this land and get them off the hook.

         24                MR. ESRY:  General Milligan, we do have the 

         25           money appropriated by the Legislture for this 

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          1           $156,000 that we've agreed to give to the County 

          2           assuming your approval, and the building of the 

          3           construction of the prison is in our five-year plan 

          4           that's been submitted to the Legislature, so I 

          5           don't need to --

          6                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So your statement that 

          7           there's no requirement and there is no money is not 

          8           totally correct.  There is a requirement?

          9                MR. ESRY:  Within the five year plan that 

         10           we're working with, yes, sir.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But you haven't answered 

         12           the -- there is no, right now, thankfully -- this 

         13           is a paid political announcement.  The number of 

         14           prisoners is basically stable.  There are plans to 

         15           expand the prison system through expanding on 

         16           existing facilities to meet kind of temporary 

         17           needs, but having said that, it is appropriate for 

         18           any state agency to plan for increased demands and 

         19           the projections are for the next five years to see 

         20           increases.

         21                I somewhat disagree with the estimating 

         22           conference of the prison population because it's a 

         23           static analysis.  It does not take into 

         24           consideration tough crime laws being passed to act 

         25           as a deterrent.

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          1                Having said that, there is a projection for an 

          2           increased numbers of prisoners over the next five 

          3           years; so they have to plan for it.  I think that's 

          4           appropriate.

          5                MR. ESRY:  And that's what we're trying to do.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions?  Is there 

          7           a motion on Item 7?

          8                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I'll move it.

          9                SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's moved and seconded.  All 

         11           in favor say, aye.

         12                (Affirmative response.)

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         14                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

         16                TREASURER NELSON:  No.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Let's see, Gallagher's left, 

         18           so it's a 3-3 vote which means it does not pass.

         19                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Maybe if we can 

         20           get something from DEP it might help us with our 

         21           votes.  You know, I think, water management 

         22           district did the study.  No one is here from there, 

         23           and DEP is not refuting it.  We would have a much 

         24           better comfort level if DEP did a review of this.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

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          1                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It's not really 

          2           a burning issue that we have to do it today.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  No, because our policy, as it 

          4           relates to crime, is working today

          5                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll move deferral.

          6                SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion to defer and 

          8           a second.  All in favor say, aye.

          9                (Affirmative response.)

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         11                (No response.)

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We will defer to the next -- 

         13           in two weeks.  Thank you-all.

         14                MR. GREEN:  Item 8 is --

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Make sure our friends from 

         16           Suwannee County and surrounding areas -- be back 

         17           with us again.

         18                MR. GREEN:  Yes.  Item 8 is approval of a 

         19           purchase agreement to acquire 6,156 acres.  To 

         20           bring you up to date, this was the parcel that had 

         21           a request for reservation of 865 acres for a 

         22           not-for-profit corporation called Noah's Ark.   

         23           They've withdrawn their request for assignment on 

         24           this site.

         25                Also, just to give you some assurances that if 

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          1           there was an assignment of a portion of this 

          2           property to any other person, that would have to 

          3           come back to the Board for approval of the 

          4           assignment before we made it.

          5                The only exception to that is the Department 

          6           of Transportation assignment which is already 

          7           addressed in the contract and in the item.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion?

          9                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

         10                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Any 

         12           discussion?

         13                (No response.)

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Without objection, it is 

         15           approved.

         16                MR. GREEN:  Item 9 is approval of 

         17           authorization to acquire 100 percent interest in 

         18           51.48 (sic) acres in the Indian Lagoon Blueway.

         19                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second?

         21                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         23           objection, it's approved.

         24                MR. GREEN:  Governor, the next two items have 

         25           to do with the East Everglades Project.  Before we 

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          1           take up either one of those items, we would like to 

          2           give you a brief presentation by Jim Jackson, with 

          3           the Water Management District, to explain how those 

          4           projects are integral to the Everglades project.

          5                MR. JACKSON:  Good morning.  My purpose is 

          6           twofold, first, to give you information on the 

          7           broad role or the importance of the East Coast 

          8           Buffer/East Everglades parcels to the Comprehensive 

          9           Everglades Restoration Plan.

         10                Secondly, to give you more specifics on the 

         11           parcels on you're agenda items today, Numbers 10 

         12           and 11.  This is showing the property in green that 

         13           was part of the original East Everglades CARL 

         14           project, and then in yellow, the East Coast Buffer 

         15           that was added to that based upon analysis by our 

         16           agency in 1994 and 1995.

         17                In addition to what's on the screen, I also 

         18           brought two large satellite photographs --

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Bring it up so it's a little 

         20           bit easier to see.

         21                MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  There's also one that's 

         22           over there for the audience to look at as well.   

         23           The value of these is to show both in yellow the --

         24           (displaying photographs to Cabinet) --

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Go ahead.

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          1                MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, Governor.  Both, in 

          2           terms of the slide that's here as well as the two 

          3           satellite images, what you can see is the intense 

          4           development that's occurred within South Florida, 

          5           especially the delineation point being right along 

          6           the East Coast Protective Levee that was built 50 

          7           years ago by the Corps of Engineers, a separation 

          8           between the Everglades system and the areas that 

          9           could be developed in the future.

         10                The one you have in front of you, the 

         11           satellite image, is a little more detailed in 

         12           image.  It also shows you the full East Coast 

         13           Buffer project.  Those lands we already own were 

         14           not made part of the CARL portion of that, but 

         15           that's what we're looking at for that.

         16                That's the intent I had for that particular 

         17           photograph -- for the satellite image.  If you want 

         18           it to stay there, you can.  That's all I had 

         19           intended to use that.  What this slide is showing 

         20           you is how close development is occurring to the 

         21           levee.

         22                That's the conservation area.  That right 

         23           there is the levee.  This is the Sawgrass 

         24           Expressway.  When we began this analysis in 

         25           1994/1995, that was still vacant land.  It is now, 

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          1           as you can see, full of development within that.

          2                There is tremendous competition for 

          3           development for the project we're doing.  There are 

          4           a number of components in the Comprehensive 

          5           Everglades Restoration Plan.  What I want to focus 

          6           on is the East Coast Buffer.

          7                When the levee was put in by the Corps of 

          8           Engineers 50 years ago, it did what it was intended 

          9           to do, which is to separate the water conservation 

         10           areas from the land to the east.  At it's most 

         11           simplistic level, the design was to put this levee 

         12           in from Palm Beach County down to Miami-Dade 

         13           County.

         14                That was a series of canals that would go east 

         15           to west that would drain water into the 

         16           intracoastal waterway.  That had the land that was 

         17           developable for subdivisions, for cities, for 

         18           agriculture, and for other uses.

         19                The cost of that is that you have water loss 

         20           between the higher levels being kept in the 

         21           conservation areas and the lands to the east.  In 

         22           some areas such as west of Boca Raton, you've got a 

         23           10-foot differential between the water levels from 

         24           the conservation area and what you have in 

         25           developed land.

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          1                There's tremendous seepage loss through the 

          2           levee water out of the system.  In addition to 

          3           that, the entire canal system basically, with one 

          4           exception, all discharges to the coast.  The heart 

          5           of what we're after, at this point, is to establish 

          6           a series of interconnected marshes, groundwater, 

          7           recharge areas, above-ground impoundments, 

          8           reservoirs and water treatment areas that do a 

          9           variety of purposes.

         10                One critical role of that is to help reduce 

         11           seepage by having a series of step-downs, in this 

         12           particular new area, using water that's currently 

         13           lost to tide.  What we'd be establishing -- using 

         14           the map that's over on the wall -- would be a 

         15           series of controlled structures in the canals 

         16           between the levee and the coast, and having the 

         17           water from the western portions, back-pumped, not 

         18           into the conservation areas, but into these initial 

         19           East Coast Buffer water preserve areas.

         20                They'd be pumped into above-ground 

         21           impoundments and to reservoirs and to marshes.  By 

         22           doing that, it will help reduce the seepage loss 

         23           into the system.

         24                TREASURER NELSON:  I'd ask where are those 

         25           buffer areas on this map?  Would you show me?

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          1                MR. JACKSON:  The areas that are in yellow on 

          2           this are those -- is the East Coast Buffer project.   

          3           Those are the lands we're talking about.

          4                TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Put your red dot on 

          5           there again.

          6                MR. JACKSON:  Okay.  This is in Palm Beach 

          7           County --

          8                TREASURER NELSON:  Right.

          9                MR. JACKSON:  Moving down, this is the Boca 

         10           Raton area, west of it.  This is the Sawgrass 

         11           Expressway here.  This is Broward County along this 

         12           stretch.  

         13                TREASURER NELSON:  Right.

         14                MR. JACKSON:  From here down, your Miami-Dade 

         15           County.  This is Krome Avenue.  Then south of that 

         16           is -- I have individual slides in a second that 

         17           will provide more detail to that point.

         18                TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.

         19                MR. JACKSON:  But my point, on the next slide 

         20           on the screen, is that the work that we've done 

         21           with the East Coast Buffer has been incorporated in 

         22           the work that we've been doing with the Corps of 

         23           Engineers on the overall Everglades Restoration 

         24           program.

         25                This we refer to as Restudy, the direction 

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          1           from the corps -- from the Congress to the corps to 

          2           restudy the entire plumbing system in South Florida 

          3           to better reflect its overall purpose, referring to 

          4           it now as the Comprehensive Everglades Restoration 

          5           Plan.

          6                There are 68 individual components within the 

          7           overall plan.  About a dozen or so fit into the 

          8           East Coast Buffer and how we're using those 

          9           particular parts to that.  The next six slides show 

         10           county by county the components we're talking about 

         11           and how we're moving ahead with land acquisition.

         12                Commissioners, what we looked at before, 

         13           beginning in Palm Beach County here, this the 

         14           wetland at the northernmost portion of it, 

         15           agricultural reservoir in Palm Beach County, which 

         16           is to provide water for urban uses and agricultural 

         17           uses in the middle portion of the county.

         18                Then towards the south, the Hillsborough 

         19           impoundment, which will be created just on the 

         20           Hillsborough canal which will provide water for 

         21           aquifer for storage -- I'm sorry, for aquifer 

         22           storage recovery as well as for aquifer recharge 

         23           for well fields.

         24                As I showed you in the beginning, there has 

         25           been tremendous pressure for competition of land 

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          1           uses.   We've been working very aggressively on a 

          2           number of fronts to acquire the property.  What 

          3           this slide is showing you are the properties that 

          4           are shown in green are the ones we have acquired 

          5           and closed on at present.

          6                Then the two that are in turquoise right there 

          7           (indicating) are ones we've recently agreed to 

          8           purchase and are now moving ahead in partnership 

          9           with one of those in Palm Beach County.  We are 

         10           moving ahead on a series of fronts for that to 

         11           acquire the properties.  The ones that are in 

         12           yellow are still to be acquired.

         13                In Broward County, we're looking at two 

         14           above-ground impoundments within the treatment 

         15           areas and then a series of wetlands that we're 

         16           incorporating as part of the overall system that 

         17           will both expand part of the Everglades, but also 

         18           serve to reduce seepage.

         19                We'll get to cost in a second.  Within Broward 

         20           County, we have been able to acquire over 7,700 

         21           acres to date at a total cost of $91,000,000 for 

         22           these particular properties.  We are aggressively 

         23           working right now to acquire the main property in 

         24           the wetland area for this C-11 impoundment.

         25                (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)

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          1                MR. JACKSON:  In Miami-Dade County, we're 

          2           doing several things.  About half of the East Coast 

          3           Buffer properties was in Miami-Dade County.  We're 

          4           looking to work with the rock mining industry over 

          5           the next several decades and to use the mines after 

          6           they have been quarried for in-ground reservoirs.

          7                We will need to provide treatment technology 

          8           around them to protect the water within that 

          9           containment, but we're looking to use the land with 

         10           them.  The property should be above ground here at 

         11           North Lake Belt storage area.

         12                Another reservoir will be the Central Lake 

         13           Belt storage area, and then the far western part of 

         14           the Pennsuco wetlands.  To date, we've acquired 

         15           5400 acres at a cost of over $32.8 million.

         16                Now, this again is a reference for you 

         17           (indicating).  This is the turnpike extension down 

         18           to here.  This is the Broward County/Miami-Dade 

         19           County border.  This is Krome Avenue along here, 

         20           and this is U.S. 441, Tamiami Trail.

         21                One of the parcels is right there 

         22           (indicating).  The other parcels are down in that 

         23           area.  There was discussion on one of your previous 

         24           agenda items referred to as Wayne's World or 

         25           Blockbuster Park.

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          1                That's located in this proposed area in 

          2           general, and the Miccosukee Bingo Hall was also 

          3           referenced right down there (indicating).  Agenda 

          4           Item 10 is one that was deferred from last month.   

          5           It's referred to as the Martinez tract.

          6                This is an aerial photograph of it.  As you 

          7           can see, it has extensive road frontage on U.S. 27.   

          8           It is one large particular parcel.  In the distance 

          9           you can see the rock mining that's occurring.  It's 

         10           also planned to be occurring over there 

         11           (indicating).

         12                The intent would be to connect to that and to 

         13           have a treatment area for the water.  I'll discuss 

         14           that more in a second.  This is the Miami River 

         15           Canal.  This is one of the lakes that's south of 

         16           it.

         17                This is a schematic view for that.  I want to 

         18           point out two aspects again, the storage area, the 

         19           in-ground reservoir.  This is the particular shape, 

         20           the design.  We're now working to refine that image 

         21           for that.

         22                There's a series of treatment areas around it.  

         23           These were chosen to have the least intrusion on 

         24           existing uses that were in the property.  We're 

         25           trying not to impose upon the existing rural houses 

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          1           in that particular area for that.

          2                Again, the need for this particular portion of 

          3           it in here, which the district owns part of it, and 

          4           the State owns a part, for a treatment area and as 

          5           part of the reservoir for that.  Now, the water 

          6           storage area will provide water for the well fields 

          7           in Miami-Dade County, provide a way of maintaining 

          8           the canals at the current level to prevent 

          9           saltwater intrusion, and also to provide water to 

         10           Biscayne Bay to meet salinity targets for the 

         11           health of the Bay.

         12                The water treatment areas, which is how we 

         13           could use the Martinez property, are critical to 

         14           providing water quality after it comes out of the 

         15           reservoir and prior to going into the canal 

         16           network.

         17                The other parcels, which are Agenda Item 

         18           Number 11, are in this area (indicating).  This is 

         19           a 4-square-mile area that we intend to have as a 

         20           wetland and recharge area.  Directly south of this, 

         21           Miami-Dade County has their west well fields.

         22                This would provide groundwater recharge to 

         23           help replenish the well fields as well as to 

         24           provide a way of providing peak continuation for 

         25           flood control purposes, i.e., a place to store 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           water during heavy events.

          2                Throughout all the work we're doing in this 

          3           effort, what we're trying to do is under an overall 

          4           umbrella of getting the water corrected, getting 

          5           the water right, being able to provide the right 

          6           amount of water at the right location, at the right 

          7           quality, at the right timing.

          8                Thank you very much.

          9                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just so we know exactly 

         10           how this piece of property fits in, would you go 

         11           back a slide?

         12                MR. JACKSON:  (Complying.)

         13                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  In the lower right-hand 

         14           corner, that grayish area, which is part of your --

         15                MR. JACKSON:  Right there?

         16                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.  Now, the Martinez 

         17           property is basically about where the head of the 

         18           arrow is to the left?

         19                MR. JACKSON:  Yes.

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And the other property 

         21           is yet to be acquired?

         22                MR. JACKSON:  Correct.

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And the critical piece 

         24           of that property are your drainage fields or 

         25           whatever you call them or whatever that says -- I 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           can't read it -- is really yet to be acquired?

          2                MR. JACKSON:  Correct.

          3                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Thank you?

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The rest -- just in general, 

          5           the East Coast Buffer property, this is zoned for 

          6           mining use; therefore, I guess we can take it this 

          7           isn't -- maybe this is someone else's question to 

          8           answer, but how much of this property is zoned for 

          9           something that will up the price?

         10                Have we made an assessment of all the 

         11           purchasing we have to do, an accurate assessment, 

         12           of the total cost of this?  Are we competing with 

         13           ourselves again, which seems to be, at least in my 

         14           humble opinion, what we end up doing since we're 

         15           the sole buyer of this property.

         16                Do we raise the price by purchasing 

         17           incrementally, and just because we were the seller 

         18           and you were the purchaser of one property, then 

         19           jacking up the price of the next one and kind of 

         20           moving -- if we move forward, do we raise 

         21           valuations?

         22                MR. JACKSON:  Let me address a couple of the 

         23           comments.  I've had the pleasure of being at a 

         24           couple of southern workshops in Miami-Dade County 

         25           at night, and the comments from a number of the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           people who own property there is the reverse.

          2                They're accusing us of keeping the prices down 

          3           low in our acquisition for that.  This is just an 

          4           observation.  Secondly, I mentioned to you before 

          5           that the portion that was within Miami-Dade County, 

          6           there was some rock mining occurring.

          7                That entire area is nicknamed the "Lake Belt 

          8           Area."  The Legislature established a committee to 

          9           work out a master plan for that.  The committee did 

         10           the phase one portion of that plan which identified 

         11           those areas that were suitable for mining and those 

         12           areas that were not.

         13                Using the map on the wall, the Pennsuco 

         14           wetland and the area south of it where the recharge 

         15           would be, which is Agenda Item 11 parcels, those 

         16           were determined not appropriate for mining and more 

         17           appropriate for mitigation and water management 

         18           purposes.  The other properties --

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are they zoned for mining?   

         20           Can they use them for mining?

         21                MR. JACKSON:  They have a land use, one for 

         22           Pennsuco, and, no they cannot.  Okay.  That doesn't 

         23           necessarily stop somebody from applying for a 

         24           permit.  There's a long-standing court case we're 

         25           trying to resolve.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                The property to the east, which is the 

          2           majority of the land in Miami-Dade County and the 

          3           East Coast Buffer, does have a land use of 

          4           agriculture.  It would allow one house per 5 acres, 

          5           and it would allow them to have rock mining in the 

          6           property.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So you think you guys -- 

          8           contrary to my opinion, you think you're 

          9           suppressing pricing?

         10                MR. JACKSON:  What I was reporting to you is 

         11           what we have been accused of.  I do not believe we 

         12           are suppressing the price.  I don't believe we are 

         13           increasing the price for that.  We have other staff 

         14           here that can talk about more specific points.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have a budget on the 

         16           total purchase of all this property?  Have you made 

         17           a -- have you done a run that makes the 

         18           determination of what your estimation of the total 

         19           cost is?

         20                MR. JACKSON:  In terms of the properties we 

         21           need that are within the Comprehensive Everglades 

         22           Restoration Plan, yes.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The green stuff there, what's 

         24           the price?

         25                MR. JACKSON:  I'm sorry.  I need to get back 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           to you on that one, sir.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  General, do you have 

          3           any other comments?

          4                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Not right now.  We've 

          5           got some more people, I guess, that want to --

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is that true, or is this the 

          7           end of it?

          8                MR. LITTLEJOHN:  Blair Littlejohn with the 

          9           South Florida Water Management District.  I was 

         10           going to give you the per-acre prices that are what 

         11           we are seeing as the going rate in the three 

         12           counties.

         13                In Palm Beach County, we're seeing about 36 to 

         14           38,000 dollars per acre.  In Broward, between 35 to 

         15           40,000 dollars per acre.  In Dade and the Pennsuco 

         16           area, somewhere between 3 and 6,000 dollars per 

         17           acre, and outside the Pensuce, somewhere between 20 

         18           and 30,000 dollars per acre.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I presume Item 11 is in 

         20           the Pennsuco area; is that right.

         21                MR. JACKSON:  It's south of it.

         22                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It's in the higher 

         23           price.  It's interesting, we have to ask, Items 10 

         24           and 11, one that is approximately $8,000 an acre 

         25           and another one that's approximately $23,000 an 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           acre, and they're not terribly distant in their 

          2           relationship.

          3                They're certainly equivalent in their 

          4           function, and perhaps in many respects, Item 11 is 

          5           more appropriate in terms of the critical view as 

          6           far as the water treatment area.  Why the huge 

          7           variance?

          8                MR. DAW:  Ken Daw with the South Florida Water 

          9           Management District, chief appraiser.  The 

         10           difference between Martinez and Item 11 would be 

         11           use potential.  The Martinez tract is in an area of 

         12           rural residential development development just to 

         13           the northwest.

         14                It would be suitable for the Martinez tract.   

         15           The comparable sales that were used to value 

         16           Martinez were in the same general area which is 

         17           physically -- there is physical characteristics 

         18           that differentiate that tract from Item 11.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It is zoned 

         20           agriculture?

         21                MR. DAW:  Yes.

         22                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So technically it's a 

         23           zoning change to drive it up to the high value.

         24                MR. DAW:  Well, that's what -- the current 

         25           comparable sales were also zoned agriculture.  They 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           had the same land use designation as open lands; so 

          2           we were comparing apples to apples there.

          3                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  We're buying that land, 

          4           right?

          5                MR. DAW:  Correct.

          6                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  The water management 

          7           district is buying it?

          8                MR. DAW:  Correct.

          9                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  We're paying for it.   

         10           Okay.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.  Kirby, any 

         12           other --

         13                MR. GREEN:  No, sir.  That completes the 

         14           speakers.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're on Item 10.

         16                MR. DAW:  Excuse me.  A point of 

         17           clarification, the comparable sales that were used 

         18           in the valuation of the Martinez sales were private 

         19           sector sales.  They were not government purchases.

         20                MR. GREEN:  Item 10, approval of authorization 

         21           to acquire 100 percent interest in 81.99 acres in 

         22           the East Everglades CARL project.

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I will have to say, I'm 

         24           not going to vote for it, Governor, as a prelude to 

         25           my vote, and I'm not going to vote for it primarily 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           because I am not convinced that that small piece of 

          2           property, that triangle, is that critical when you 

          3           look at the adjacent lands, which we haven't bought 

          4           yet, and we're going to pay through the nose to 

          5           acquire.

          6                I would rather not buy this piece of property 

          7           at this time, and let's see see what we can do on 

          8           some of the other more critical pieces that are 

          9           right adjacent to it.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments?

         11                (No response.)

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion?

         13                (No response.)

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  No motion?

         15                (No response.)

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's no motion.  Okay.

         17                (Treasurer Nelson exits room.)

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Item 11, there's no -- I 

         19           assume when you don't have a motion, that means 

         20           this thing is dead.

         21                MR. GREEN:  Substitute Item 11 is 

         22           authorization to acquire 100 percent interest in 40 

         23           acres within the East Everglades CARL project.

         24                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll move Item 11.

         25                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Any 

          2           discussion?

          3                (No response.)

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Without hearing any, it's 

          5           approved.  It is approved unanimously.

          6                MR. GREEN:  Governor, may I go back to Item 8 

          7           for just a second?

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

          9                MR. GREEN:  When Noah's Ark withdrew their 

         10           request to participate in the purchase, we also had 

         11           a statement in the item that we were going to use 

         12           less restrictive dollars to purchase that land in 

         13           case they could raise the money to purchase it from 

         14           us.

         15                With them being out of the picture now, we can 

         16           use P2000 dollars to purchase those lands and put 

         17           them in conservation mode; so we would like to 

         18           change the contract to indicate that we were going 

         19           to use P2000 dollars to purchase those lands that 

         20           we had reserved for Noah's Ark.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you need any --

         22                MR. GREEN:  No, sir.  I just needed to clarify 

         23           that that's what we wanted to do.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's understood.

         25                MR. GREEN:  Thank you, sir.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

          2                (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 

          3           Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)























                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of Education?

          2                MR. PIERSON:  We have a group of charter 

          3           schools that have applied for our oversight and 

          4           view, and the first one, Item 1, has been 

          5           withdrawn; so we don't need to take that one up.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.  Can either you or 

          7           the Commissioner, can you give us an outline of 

          8           what our responsibilities are?

          9                MR. PIERSON:  It's something I will do.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         11                MR. PIERSON:  The State Board of Education 

         12           considers appeals of denials of charter school 

         13           applications pursuant to 96-186, Laws of Florida.   

         14           As prescribed by law, Florida school boards are to 

         15           be given authority to grant the privilege to 

         16           applicants who wish to operate charter schools 

         17           within a district.

         18                A further provision of the law allows an 

         19           applicant who has been denied a charter the right 

         20           to appeal the school board's decision to the State 

         21           Board of Education.  Based on the written record 

         22           and oral argument presented at this meeting, the 

         23           State Board must vote to recommend acceptance or 

         24           rejection of the appeal to the school board.

         25                The vote requires a simple majority of the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           members and by law, is not subject to the 

          2           provisions of the Administrative Procedures Act.   

          3           The rule governing the appeal process was 

          4           unanimously adopted by the Cabinet sitting as the 

          5           Stated Board of Education on December 10th, 1996.

          6                It very clearly states how this hearing must 

          7           proceed.  And it specifies the following 

          8           limitations which must be respected by the 

          9           applicant, the district school board and the 

         10           representatives.

         11                The notice of appeal must be based on errors 

         12           the applicant charges the school board made in its 

         13           decisions to deny the charter.  The written 

         14           arguments submitted by the applicant to the state 

         15           board is limited to the discussion of those errors.

         16                The record of this proceeding is limited to 

         17           the written arguments, the charter school 

         18           application itself, the transcripts of meetings 

         19           before the district school board.  At this hearing, 

         20           representatives of each party may give oral 

         21           argument.

         22                Oral argument is limited to a summary of the 

         23           written arguments previously submitted to the state 

         24           board.  Each side has been asked to limit its 

         25           summary presentation to 10 minutes.  After the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           summaries are presented, votes taken, and a written 

          2           recommendation of the vote will be returned to the 

          3           district school board.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions?

          5                (No response.)

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Onward to Item 2.

          7                MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is Greater Jacksonville 

          8           Area Charter School of Development and Academic 

          9           Excellence, Incorporated versus the Duval County 

         10           School Board.  Representing the Jacksonville Area 

         11           Charter School is Albert Simpson.

         12                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Can you limit the time 

         13           allotment here?

         14                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Normally it's 10 

         15           minutes per side.  If anybody would like to go 

         16           longer, the rule certainly allows it.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We're not encouraging that, 

         18           are we, Commissioner?

         19                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No.  That's why --

         20                MR. PIERSON:  We've limited them to 10 

         21           minutes.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Let's begin.

         23                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Excuse me.  Mr. Governor, 

         24           before we get started, we do have a copy of our 

         25           script, if we could provide that for you and the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Cabinet, we certainly would appreciate it.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sure.

          3                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Go ahead and proceed, 

          4           please.

          5                (Treasurer Nelson enters room.)

          6                REVEREND SIMPSON:  To the Honorable Governor 

          7           and distinguished Cabinet Members, at this time, I 

          8           would like to take the privilege and opportunity to 

          9           introduce the Greater Jacksonville Area Charter 

         10           School's founder and the governance board chair.

         11                Reverend Evans, Rene Evans, he's a pastor and 

         12           also one of the founders of the Greater 

         13           Jacksonville Area Charter School.  Ms. Brenda Ford, 

         14           she's the chair of the governance board of the 

         15           Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School, and Ms. 

         16           Ed Lasster, who is also a founder and also who 

         17           served in a capacity to work for the Greater 

         18           Jacksonville Area Charter School, and also Mr. 

         19           Wells, Michale T. Wells, who is also a founder of 

         20           the Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School.

         21                Honorable Governor and distinguished Cabinet 

         22           Members, our great State passed charter school 

         23           legislation, Section 228.056 and Section 228.0561 

         24           to give not-for-profit organizations opportunity to 

         25           create and design their community's educational 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           need with freedom and choice for every parent and 

          2           their children.

          3                Thank you, Mr. Governor, for your courage and 

          4           compassion to embrace and support education reform 

          5           and accountability at every level of our 

          6           educational system so no child will be left behind.   

          7           We are before you and the Cabinet today to ask you 

          8           and the Cabinet to support our cause to have the 

          9           freedom and opportunity to implement our academic 

         10           design governance and management model, facility 

         11           finance model, and total operation of an 

         12           independent public school, a parental choice to 

         13           help the targeted student population that's in need 

         14           of this kind of academic design.

         15                We are not before you today to fight over FTE 

         16           dollars with our local school district, but we are 

         17           here, Mr. Governor and Cabinet, to help children 

         18           who are failing in our school district.  We have 

         19           six charter schools with a waiting list of students 

         20           for enrollment.

         21                We also have 2980 students being home 

         22           schooled, and parents are moving to surrounding 

         23           counties such as St. Johns and Clay to enroll their 

         24           children to their school.  A large number of 

         25           students are enrolled in private schools.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                Eighty-two percent of students' enrollment in 

          2           Florida Community College of Jacksonville have to 

          3           remediate.  These charter school applicants are 

          4           before you today to help the parents and students 

          5           in their school districts.

          6                We have over 125,000 students in our school 

          7           district with a cap of 28 charter schools.  These 

          8           applicants have strong governance structures that 

          9           according to charter school legislation, Section 

         10           231.15 and Section 231.17, certified teachers and 

         11           noncertified employees like any other public 

         12           school, and Sections 236 and 237, financing and 

         13           taxation, and public school expenditures with the 

         14           ability to hire certified CPAs and accountants.

         15                Mr. Governor and Cabinet Members, our local 

         16           school district have very effectively used the 

         17           failure of the Impact Academy Charter School 

         18           operator as an instrument to discourage and destroy 

         19           the charter school movement concept.

         20                One failure does not mean that charter schools 

         21           don't work.  It simply means that the system is 

         22           working.  If we experience a climbing enrollment, a 

         23           poor academic performance, a fiscal management 

         24           problem, this school district can shut us down, and 

         25           their conventional schools can be fixed by them and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           continue to operate.

          2                Thank you, sir.  If we have a minute --

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You do.

          4                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Could I present to you 

          5           Reverend Pastor Rene Evans.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Reverend, we welcome you.

          7                MR. MUELLER:  Mr. Governor, they have more 

          8           than one speaker.  I think the rule provides for 

          9           only one speaker, do they not, for each school?  In 

         10           other words, are we going to give testimony here, 

         11           argument or what?

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who are you?

         13                MR. MUELLER:  Me?  I'm -- excuse me.  My name 

         14           is Ernest Mueller.  I'm the lawyer for Duval County 

         15           School Board.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You'll get a chance to speak.  

         17           Don't worry.  Ten minutes for each side.

         18                MR. MUELLER:  Well, my question is, may I call 

         19           additional parties to --

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You've got 10 minutes.  You've 

         21           got 10 minutes to do whatever you want.  It'll work 

         22           out.  These people have come -- if you need more 

         23           time, we'll do it.  Look, this is an important 

         24           issue, and people have traveled.

         25                You've traveled from Jacksonville and so have 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           these people.  I think everybody deserves a chance 

          2           to speak.  If we stay till 10 at night, we will.   

          3           There's no rules about this.  All right?

          4                Pastor, welcome.

          5                REVEREND EVANS:  Thank you so much, Mr. 

          6           Governor and this Cabinet.  I would just like to 

          7           say that I come from a very large family, seven 

          8           brothers and six sisters, and out of all of my 

          9           mother's children, I failed to learn to read in the 

         10           early '80s.

         11                Being in school in the eighth and ninth grade 

         12           and can't read, it's very difficult, but I was 

         13           fortunate that I learned how to read at a late age.   

         14           Becoming pastor and being in the ministry over 25 

         15           years and pastoring 4 years, I've dedicated myself 

         16           to help our children learn how to read and get an 

         17           education in these times that we live.

         18                I'm so happy that, understanding where you're 

         19           coming from, being diverse in education, the 

         20           Greater Jacksonville needs an opportunity to help 

         21           our children to get an education.  We've been 

         22           fortunate to go into the school in our district, 

         23           Northwestern School, for three years.

         24                We have seen, hat on hand, the difficulty that 

         25           our children are having with background, all kinds 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           of backgrounds.  Our desire is to go in with 

          2           determination to help these children read.  We 

          3           certainly have the ability at our church to learn 

          4           how, and know how to hire CPAs and teachers, and do 

          5           all that's necessary to make this work.

          6                We're here to appeal that this Governor and 

          7           this board give us an opportunity that we need in 

          8           spite of what's been going on in the past.  Give us 

          9           the opportunity to make sure that our children in 

         10           our district -- they're asking us to please help 

         11           them.  We thank you very much.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Pastor.

         13                MS. FORD:  Good afternoon.  My name is Brenda 

         14           Ford.  I represent the chairperson for the 

         15           governance board for Greater Jacksonville Area 

         16           Charter School.  What we wanted to clear up with 

         17           the board was that one of the issues was that we 

         18           did not have a governing board for our school.

         19                It has been an initial group of people that 

         20           was submitted with our initial applications that we 

         21           do have a governing board for this particular 

         22           school.  I chair that group along with five others.   

         23           That gives us a total of six people.

         24                Our desire is to carry out the vision and the 

         25           missions for this school.  We do have articles that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           we will be governed by to rule with this school.   

          2           We will apply every section of that rule, those 

          3           articles, and the law to make sure that our school 

          4           is governed in the way that it should be.

          5                The only thing that we're asking for is that 

          6           you will give us the opportunity, as we have 

          7           presented our application, to carry out the vision 

          8           and the mission for this particular school, the 

          9           Greater Jacksonville Area Charter School.  Thank 

         10           you.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.  You're 

         12           just a little over a minute inside the 10 minutes.

         13                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Governor, we'll be very 

         14           brief.  Thank you, sir, for your time and your 

         15           Cabinet's.  We'll be standing here for any 

         16           questions or whenever you need to call us back.   

         17           Thank you, sir.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We will have questions.

         19                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Thank you, sir.

         20                MR. PIERSON:  For the Duval County School 

         21           Board, we have Attorney Ernst Mueller and Karen 

         22           Chastain.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

         24                MR. MUELLER:  Thank you.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They did that in 10 minutes, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           believe it or not.

          2                MR. MUELLER:  They sure did.  They were good.  

          3           Governor and Members of the Board, my name is Ernst 

          4           Mueller.  I'm an attorney representing the Duval 

          5           County School Board.  We've got several people from 

          6           Duval County here with us.

          7                I just want to briefly introduce them.  First, 

          8           Gwen Gibson, a board member.  Ms. Gibson, if you 

          9           could stand.

         10                MS. GIBSON:  (Complying.)

         11                MR. MUELLER:  Next to her on the left, Linda 

         12           Sparks, also a member of the school board.  Sitting 

         13           to Ms. Gibson's right is Vicky Reynolds, a member 

         14           of the Duval County School Board staff, and in the 

         15           front row over there is Ms. Chastain who will be 

         16           arguing two of these appeals on our behalf.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We welcome you.

         18                MR. MUELLER:  Let me mention, at the outset, 

         19           in Duval County, we have six charter schools 

         20           functioning already, four more that are on-line.   

         21           On the particular day, February 23rd, that these 

         22           four schools were turned down, two charters were 

         23           approved, and there are two before that are about 

         24           to go on-line likely this year.

         25                We did have one initial charter school prior 

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          1           to that, Impact Academy.  Impact Academy was our 

          2           only high school charter.  It had operated since 

          3           last August.  January 11th of this year it came to 

          4           a screeching halt.

          5                It was over a million dollars in debt.   

          6           Financially it was in chaos, and that particular 

          7           event served to influence board action and 

          8           attention to the charters in a manner that resulted 

          9           in more careful scrutiny and examination than 

         10           perhaps had happened in the past.

         11                The principal reason that the board rejected 

         12           the application of this charter, Greater 

         13           Jacksonville, relates to the Impact Academy matter.   

         14           The key figure in the organization of Greater Jax 

         15           was an individual named Eddie Lasster.  Eddie 

         16           Lasster was one of the organizing directors.

         17                She's one of the three incorporators.  She was 

         18           one of the initial directors, and she was about to 

         19           be the executive director of the school.  That is 

         20           all reflected in the corporate documents and the 

         21           submissions of the charter school.

         22                Now, Eddy Lasster had been the chairman, the 

         23           chairperson, of Impact Academy for a number of 

         24           months through October of the prior year.  The 

         25           Impact Academy debacle happened about 30 days, a 

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          1           little over 30 days or 40 days before this matter 

          2           was considered.

          3                The board did not feel it could approve a 

          4           charter school that had, as its key organizer and 

          5           chief executive, an individual who had just been a 

          6           significant part of the Impact failure and 

          7           certainly not without an objective outside report 

          8           or investigation on what had happened there, which 

          9           looked at her role, whatever it had been.

         10                That, of course, had not been completed at the 

         11           time.  This particular problem was compounded 

         12           somewhat by what we feel was an effort to conceal 

         13           or deny that Lasster was, in fact, a director.   

         14           Lasster denied it on page 1 of the transcript, 

         15           which is Exhibit E attached to the documents, our 

         16           brief, that you have in front of you.

         17                Mrs. Ford denied it at page 9, and this lack 

         18           of candor was clearly contradicted by simple 

         19           examination of the articles of incorporation; so 

         20           the board really was in a position where it could 

         21           virtually only disapprove on that basis, and to do 

         22           otherwise would have been reckless under the 

         23           circumstances.

         24                Let me tell you, this board is concerned that 

         25           charter schools will get a bad name through 

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          1           failures of this sort and wants to make darn sure 

          2           we never have it happen again in Duval County.   

          3           There were a couple of other reasons that were 

          4           mentioned and discussed by the board members.

          5                There was some flaws in the budget that were 

          6           pointed out.  The figure allocated for salaries was 

          7           grossly insufficient.  That was enough to pay the 

          8           teachers, but nobody else, and there were about 

          9           seven or eight other people in the staff.

         10                There was no explicit budget item for a 

         11           facility.  There was just a line item called, 

         12           "capital equipment institutional," line, which was 

         13           vague as to meaning, and there was also no clear 

         14           location for a facility.

         15                The facility and the lack of a facility budget 

         16           was sort of viewed to be critical because in the 

         17           Impact failure, most of the million-dollar 

         18           shortfall had been invested in attempting to pay 

         19           for a facility.

         20                In sum, apart of the problem of Ms. Lasster, 

         21           there was a budget that reflected a lack of 

         22           administrative and financial sophistication that 

         23           was needed to run a school, and a budget that 

         24           showed no location for facility.

         25                In sum, they just weren't ready, and I do want 

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          1           to say that in the letter sent from the board 

          2           rejecting them, we did invite them to apply again 

          3           in the next round.  The whole thing was based on 

          4           what the board views to be solid fact and nothing 

          5           that could be classified as having a basis in bias 

          6           of any sort.  That concludes my presentation.

          7                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Three minutes.

          8                MR. MUELLER:  Three minutes?  Ms. Sparks, 

          9           would you like to say something, please?

         10                MS. SPARKS:  Governor, Members of the Cabinet, 

         11           thank you for allowing me to express the heart of 

         12           the Duval County School Board as it relates to 

         13           these charters.  I just want to say that I have 

         14           been an advocate of charters, and I wish to 

         15           preserve the integrity of the concept of charters.

         16                This particular charter, as in the others that 

         17           we denied in this particular cycle, did not 

         18           demonstrate the financial capability nor the 

         19           academic design that they could really run a 

         20           school, and that they could carry out our mission 

         21           of the high standards that are set before us.

         22                I have never voted against a charter until 

         23           this particular cycle, and I would like to ask you 

         24           and appeal to you to support the school board's 

         25           good judgment in denying these charters on these 

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          1           bases that were cited to you before by our 

          2           attorneys.  Thank you.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

          4                MR. MUELLER:  Thank you, sir.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you-all.  We may have a 

          6           few questions, so stand by.

          7                MR. MUELLER:  We will.  Thank you.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have a summary of size 

          9           and scope and what your assessment -- did you-all 

         10           make an assessment of -- I don't see staff 

         11           recommendations on this.  I don't think there are 

         12           any.

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We didn't make any 

         14           recommendations on these, Governor.  We thought it 

         15           would be good to hear both sides out and let there 

         16           be discussions.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  There's a small piece 

         19           that does give you a little bit, but I don't know 

         20           if we -- did we give out the --

         21                MR. PIERSON:  No.

         22                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Do you know from 

         23           where this came?  There is a -- sort of a sheet 

         24           that gives you - if you take this one, it's the -- 

         25           let me get the right one.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I know we have 

          2           questions.  If you have some kind of summary, 

          3           that's fine, but we can do without them.

          4                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I've got a pretty good 

          5           hold on this.  The critical thing in my mind is the 

          6           budget issue, and we didn't hear from the Greater 

          7           Jacksonville Area Charter School.  They didn't 

          8           address the budget questions upon which this denial 

          9           was, one of the items upon which it was based.

         10                I'd like to hear from them as to what their 

         11           comments are in reference to the budget.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

         13                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Specifically, when 

         14           you're talking about $310,000 or so for teachers or 

         15           for salaries, and a requirement of 12 teachers 

         16           which essentially does eat up the $310,000.  It 

         17           doesn't leave anything for additional employees.

         18                Do we have a comment on the budget and how you 

         19           thought the budget was going to be adequate?

         20                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Governor and Cabinet, I'd 

         21           like to present Ms. Eddy Lasster which was working 

         22           very closely with the schools resource people, the 

         23           charter school people and the budget department.

         24                MS. LASTER:  Thank you, Mr. Milligan.  We did 

         25           have a session with Duval County's School Board's 

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          1           budget area.  I was there for about three hours in 

          2           a session with them, and I was also instructed by 

          3           the coordinator of charter schools, Ms. Evelyn 

          4           Toots, because my original budget had adequate 

          5           funds for the teachers and all of the staff 

          6           members.

          7                However, upon a session with her, she advised 

          8           me to bring my salaries within 25 percent of my 

          9           budget; so on her recommendation, I had to cut my 

         10           budget in half, as far as the salaries were 

         11           concerned, because on her recommendation, she said 

         12           that my salaries were too high; so I had to bring 

         13           them down.  So on her recommendation, that's where 

         14           the $310,000 comes from.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have a budget?

         16                MR. LASTER:  Yes.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can we look at it?

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We did take a look at 

         19           some of these issues -- and I will read you what 

         20           our staff's concerns are here -- that is, that the 

         21           issues that need to be resolved are corporate, and 

         22           governance structures are not clearly defined in 

         23           the proposal, in the budget projections, and fund 

         24           sources may be overly optimistic estimates, was our 

         25           staff's issues to be resolved.

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          1                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Specifically, the 

          2           certain gentleman representing the school board 

          3           talked about a number of budget issues including no 

          4           money for facility, questions in terms of the 

          5           salaries.

          6                I haven't seen any address along the part of 

          7           the school, the charter school, of those particular 

          8           issues.  Were they addressed with the school board?   

          9           Were they attempted to be clarified?  Have they 

         10           been discussed?

         11                I mean, I'm just kind of left in limbo.

         12                REVEREND SIMPSON:  The question asked was, 

         13           were they addressed with the school board, and have 

         14           they been --

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  The whole question of 

         16           the budget is not clear to me.  They declined your 

         17           request for a charter school on several issues, but 

         18           one of them was the budget.  From my perspective, 

         19           that's the most pivotal issue that we're addressing 

         20           in this particular charter school that we're 

         21           discussing.

         22                No one has clarified from your side how they 

         23           were in error in terms of their refusing you on the 

         24           basis of the budget.

         25                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Out of -- Cabinet and Mr. 

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          1           Milligan, out of good faith, these applicants 

          2           worked very conscientiously and thoroughly and 

          3           consistently with the Duval School Board technical 

          4           resource persons, and they had been through 

          5           screening.

          6                As a matter of fact, they had sent us back two 

          7           or three times to amend whatever the deficiencies 

          8           that they felt was deficiencies, but the rules 

          9           changed every time.  Plus the fact, in the 

         10           application process of 2001 that the Duval County 

         11           School Board, the application format, they said 

         12           July 14th, 2000 submit an updated budget.

         13                Therefore, all this was handed on February 

         14           23rd, and they were not aware or even informed that 

         15           they needed to have all the final documentation and 

         16           do more work to their budget when they presented 

         17           February 23rd.  There was a hearing about the 

         18           negotiations and contracts of preconditional 

         19           approvals.

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  That's the first time 

         21           I've heard referenced in the study that I've been 

         22           doing on this, is the budget being submitted the 

         23           14th of July and the comments in terms of the 

         24           governance, but not the budget.

         25                REVEREND SIMPSON:  An updated budget.  They 

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          1           gave an estimated budget when they submitted the 

          2           application.

          3                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  An updated budget was 

          4           to be provided on the 14th of July if you were 

          5           approved.

          6                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Yes, sir.  We were 

          7           recommended for approval.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You were recommended for 

          9           approval?

         10                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Yes, sir, by the district 

         11           staff, and also by the superintendent of schools.

         12                TREASURER NELSON:  I wanted to ask about that 

         13           inconsistency if I could speak to the school board 

         14           attorney.  Why did the school board overrule the 

         15           staff and the school superintendent?

         16                MR. MUELLER:  I think a look at the full 

         17           record will show that the application was not 

         18           recommended three times, and then in the final -- 

         19           in the final analysis, it was recommended for 

         20           approval.

         21                There is no record reflection, per se, of why 

         22           that occurred.  I attribute it to political 

         23           pressure from interested senators and 

         24           representatives that made their wishes known.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sorry.  Excuse me.  Are you 

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          1           saying that staff bent to political pressure from 

          2           legislators to recommend this?

          3                MR. MUELLER:  No.  I think the superintendent 

          4           and the staff followed his direction.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Superintendent John C. Fryer, 

          6           I know him pretty well.  He's pretty tough.

          7                MR. MUELLER:  Well, I think if -- he told the 

          8           staff to take another careful look at it, and it 

          9           was misconstrued.  Now, beyond that, I do just want 

         10           to add that you had a tougher standard applied by 

         11           the board than it did in the past because of the 

         12           failure of Impact Academy.

         13                I would say that was the key thing that 

         14           occurred.  Let me have Ms. Gibson add to that 

         15           answer because she was there and can explain 

         16           perhaps more.

         17                MS. GIBSON:  Gwendolyn Gibson, Duval County 

         18           School Board.  Let me speak to that issue in 

         19           regards to the staff's recommendation versus the 

         20           board's recommendation.  Certainly the staff 

         21           brought to us the recommendation.

         22                The board was not involved in the actual 

         23           process, day-to-day, of meeting with or having 

         24           conferences with the applicants.  When the 

         25           recommendation came to the board after two to three 

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          1           amendments, through staff efforts, then it was time 

          2           for the board to review the applicants.

          3                It was through the board's review that we 

          4           determined and made the decision that -- our review 

          5           may have been a little different from the staff 

          6           review, but certainly we did our job of reviewing 

          7           the application very adeptly in trying to be sure 

          8           that we did not create another problem as we have 

          9           recently acted upon, and we feel very confident 

         10           that the decision we made on behalf of the Duval 

         11           County School Board was the appropriate one.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner?

         13                TREASURER NELSON:  Did the superintendent 

         14           recommend approval of the charter school?

         15                MS. GIBSON:  Yes, sir.  The superintendent did 

         16           make the recommendation, but you know, by law, that 

         17           the superintendent's job is to make 

         18           recommendations.  It's the board's job to determine 

         19           whether or not we will move forward with that 

         20           recommendation.

         21                TREASURER NELSON:  Yes.  As it is our job now 

         22           to try --

         23                MS. GIBSON:  Correct.

         24                TREASURER NELSON:  -- and decipher between the 

         25           two of you and your positions.

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          1                MS. GIBSON:  Correct.

          2                TREASURER NELSON:  Would you describe to me 

          3           the question of this -- one of the employees, Mr. 

          4           Lasster.

          5                MS. GIBSON:  It's Ms. Lasster.

          6                TREASURER NELSON:  I'm sorry.  Ms. Lasster, 

          7           and what is the bone of contention there.

          8                MS. GIBSON:  One of the concerns that 

          9           certainly I, as a board member, had in regards to a 

         10           person who had participated previously in the 

         11           Impact Academy Charter School.  It was December 

         12           before the board was placed on notice that there 

         13           were some serious problems in that charter.

         14                We never had any correspondence from any of 

         15           the board of directors, anyone from that school 

         16           indicating that they were having serious problems; 

         17           therefore, our concern is, if we create a charter 

         18           school, and they have a board of governors that is 

         19           supposed to take care of their day-to-day 

         20           operations, if there are problems, then certainly 

         21           they have an obligation to the board, to the 

         22           sponsor, to the community, and to the students at 

         23           that school to notify the appropriate persons 

         24           timely enough that we will be aware of the 

         25           problems.

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          1                We never got anything from the governing board 

          2           indicating that they were having problems, and it 

          3           was only through the board's intervention through 

          4           staff that we learned of some serious problems and 

          5           then took the appropriate actions.

          6                TREASURER NELSON:  And that serious problems 

          7           is the fact that this particular person, who had 

          8           been involved in a previous charter school --

          9                MS. GIBSON:  In a leadership role.

         10                TREASURER NELSON:  -- was going to be part of 

         11           the employees of this school.

         12                MS. GIBSON:  That's correct.

         13                TREASURER NELSON:  Was that the concern of the 

         14           Duval School Board?

         15                MS. GIBSON:  Ms. Lasster was in a leadership 

         16           role.  She started out as the chairman of that 

         17           particular charter school, and therefore, from the 

         18           leadership of that governing board, we had no 

         19           indication of any problems until there was staff 

         20           intervention into the problems at the Impact 

         21           Academy.

         22                TREASURER NELSON:  And if I understand -- if I 

         23           may address to the charter school applicant -- that 

         24           your rejoinder to that is that this particular 

         25           person will not be a director or a member of the 

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          1           governing board of school.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  She is right behind you so 

          3           you're still here, right?

          4                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Let me -- if I may, may I 

          5           bring some light to it as a clarity because --

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Please.

          7                REVEREND SIMPSON:  -- it has been 

          8           misrepresented, and if I could give you the history 

          9           of it.  I'm Albert Simpson, Jr., and my job has 

         10           been liaison juvenile justice for charter schools 

         11           to represent Steven R. Watts.

         12                I am the person -- and you can put it on 

         13           record -- that blew the whistle on Impact Academy.   

         14           I submitted to the Duval County School Board that 

         15           they was having a problem, and that they need to 

         16           bring in technical resource people from across the 

         17           state because the operator himself was having 

         18           problems, and that he felt like he owned the 

         19           school.

         20                Ms. Eddy Lasster was chair of the governance 

         21           board for a very short period of time, and when she 

         22           could not get the gentleman under control, that's 

         23           when she resigned as governance board chair.  There 

         24           was approximately two and a half months upon the 

         25           new board chair -- which by the name of Johnny 

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          1           Gaffney -- when this school went under financially 

          2           under his leadership.

          3                Ms. Eddie Lasster had submitted to the school 

          4           district October 6th, 1999 of her resignation.  The 

          5           school board opted to use that against her because 

          6           they felt like she had political support because we 

          7           had asked Ms. Lasster, because of her integrity, 

          8           because of her honesty and her spirit, to please 

          9           help this charter school and assume the position of 

         10           chair.

         11                Also we have a document from a very competent 

         12           CPA and a distinguished senator, Senator Horne in 

         13           Duval, where they stated -- and, in fact, if I may, 

         14           I would like to read (as read):

         15                        "Florida Law states that a charter 

         16           school's governing board is liable for such debt, 

         17           but Duval Impact governing board may not be because 

         18           its members did not approve or sign a contract that 

         19           resulted in the major debts."

         20                "Duval and its staff reviewed minutes from the 

         21           governing board's meetings, and there was no 

         22           mention of the contracts, and almost all of the 

         23           contracts was signed by Stan Field," he said.

         24                If this Duval County School Board can present 

         25           one document that will affix Ms. Lasster's 

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          1           signature as board chair in a public meeting that 

          2           approved the governing board's action of an 

          3           official vote, we would like to see it.

          4                I think they cannot present that.  They just 

          5           use it out of content to defame her name and our 

          6           position, Representative Weiss, mine and Senator 

          7           Horne's, because we support charter schools.

          8                TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, may I ask another 

          9           question --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

         11                TREASURER NELSON:  -- if I may, of a member of 

         12           the school board.  Was the superintendent aware of 

         13           all of this information with regard to this 

         14           employee?

         15                MS. GIBSON:  Mr. Nelson, to my knowledge, the 

         16           board never received any information directly from 

         17           the board of governors for the Impact Academy as to 

         18           its problems.  Never.

         19                TREASURER NELSON:  Was the superintendent, in 

         20           making recommendations to you-all as to the school 

         21           board, was he aware of this particular scenario 

         22           that has just been described?

         23                MS. GIBSON:  Which scenario?  In regards to --

         24                TREASURER NELSON:  Ms. Lasster, was she 

         25           involved?  Did he know that she was involved in the 

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          1           charter school application?

          2                MS. GIBSON:  At the time the recommendation 

          3           was made by the staff?

          4                TREASURER NELSON:  That's correct.

          5                MS. GIBSON:  I do not believe, at that point 

          6           in time, the superintendent and the staff was 

          7           involved in our -- was made aware of -- many times 

          8           in the application process the names are not as 

          9           important in the application process.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But her name was in the 

         11           application, wasn't it?

         12                MS. GIBSON:  No.  What I'm saying, the names 

         13           were not as important in the determination as to 

         14           the factors that the staff used to make a 

         15           determination.  Certainly, when it came to our 

         16           level, we have a responsibility to look closer at 

         17           the governance issue.

         18                That was one of the components certainly, as a 

         19           board, after experiencing the Impact Academy that 

         20           we then keyed in on who exactly was to be serving 

         21           on the governing board so that we would know what 

         22           the community contact would be and the community 

         23           support would be.

         24                TREASURER NELSON:  Is the superintendent here?

         25                MS. GIBSON:  No, he isn't.

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          1                TREASURER NELSON:  Is there a representative 

          2           of the superintendent?  Their lawyer is here.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who claims that his boss was 

          4           pressured.

          5                MS. SPARKS:  Governor, may I speak to the 

          6           apparent ambiguity?  Speaking to the apparent 

          7           ambiguity relative to the superintendent's 

          8           recommendation and the board's decision, I asked 

          9           the superintendent that night on the public record, 

         10           that if he were aware of some of the discrepancies 

         11           and some of the handicaps of these applications 

         12           that yet remained, would he still have recommended 

         13           them?  His answer, on the public record, was no.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Did the application have Ms. 

         15           Lasster's name in it as a board member?

         16                MS. SPARKS:  Yes, but as you know, the 

         17           superintendent did not thoroughly review all of the 

         18           applications.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Nor did the staff?

         20                MS. SPARKS:  He relied on his staff, yes.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Nor did the staff?

         22                MS. SPARKS:  The staff did, but he said that 

         23           had he known, he would not have forwarded these 

         24           recommendations to the board.

         25                MS. REYNOLDS:  Vicky Reynolds, I'm the 

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          1           executive director for policies compliance, Duval 

          2           County Public Schools.  I think I can explain the 

          3           difference between the superintendent's 

          4           recommendation and what the board did and how we 

          5           got to that position.

          6                We -- as a staff, we were operating under the 

          7           obviously mistaken belief that what our board 

          8           wanted us to do was to continue to work with these 

          9           applicants.  No matter what the flaws were in their 

         10           applications, that we could work with them and get 

         11           them through the charter negotiation process to the 

         12           point where we felt like they could open.

         13                We knew that Ms. Lasster was a problem, and we 

         14           were going to suggest through the charter 

         15           negotiation process that perhaps they may not want 

         16           to use her.  The same way with the budget, we knew 

         17           there were problems with the budget.

         18                We felt like our board wanted us to spend a 

         19           lot of staff time getting these schools to the 

         20           point where they knew they were ready to open.   

         21           When we took the recommendations to the board, we 

         22           were very surprised to find that the majority of 

         23           our board members didn't hold that philosophy at 

         24           all, that they wanted those applications to have 

         25           certain threshold components that showed they were 

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          1           ready to go.

          2                I think that is the difference between what 

          3           happened when we made the recommendation and the 

          4           board actually got the application.

          5                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Can you -- I still 

          6           haven't gotten an answer to this question 'cause 

          7           I've looked at the budget.  I've looked at the 

          8           revenue, and I'll exclude the grants as a little 

          9           bit of a red herring because they're relatively 

         10           small.

         11                But the salaries are clearly inadequate.  The 

         12           insurance premium probably is inadequate.  The 

         13           facilities are nonexistent.  There is no money for 

         14           facilities, and, you know, it just doesn't make 

         15           sense to me how, when we look at the revenue and we 

         16           look at those things that I know are not accounted 

         17           for -- where is the money coming from?

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Why don't we ask someone from 

         19           the charter school to answer it?

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I did, and I can't get 

         21           an answer.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know, but let's try it 

         23           again.

         24                REVEREND SIMPSON:  We're sorry that if we're 

         25           not giving you, Mr. Milligan, what you're looking 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           for.  Again, when we -- when they went before the 

          2           Duval County School Board on February 23rd, it was 

          3           not said to them, it was not addressed to them 

          4           before that they needed to have all of these 

          5           answers to the questions.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You have it now.

          7                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Okay.  But we have --

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  In theory, if you were to get 

          9           this, you would start school in September.  You've 

         10           got to have a budget.  You've got to have a 

         11           building; so the question is answer -- I mean, put 

         12           it in the present tense.

         13                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Okay.  Here's the pastor, 

         14           and the church has collaborated on the church 

         15           property, and the pastor could speak to the 

         16           facility issue about what they would --

         17                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  That's a piece of it.   

         18           You have -- I presume your revenue estimate is 

         19           fairly good.

         20                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Yes, sir.

         21                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just tell me how you 

         22           fit salaries, how you fit facilities, how you fit 

         23           some of these other things that may be involved 

         24           into that --

         25                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Here again, they were 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           looking -- the church was in collaboration and 

          2           supportive of the charter school with their funds 

          3           until they could really get the start-up dollars 

          4           and to get an opportunity to work on all of that.

          5                They would have had all of those answers 

          6           certainly before -- at the deadline of July 14th to 

          7           work in to do that because they was working up 

          8           something then, but they were denied February 23rd,

          9           and without a legal -- without a charter being 

         10           approved, or either receiving an initial approval, 

         11           you certainly could not go in and ask investors or 

         12           somebody to really put some money into it.

         13                Here's the pastor.

         14                REVEREND EVANS:  We'd just like to say that 

         15           the church where we are, the location, we sit on 10 

         16           acres of land, and we certainly have the 

         17           facilities.  We were led to believe that we would 

         18           be able to get the support that we need from the 

         19           State, but then being led and listening to the 

         20           various ones that we were talking to, we couldn't 

         21           seem to get no straight answers ourselves.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Gallagher, are 

         23           there any more fixed capital outlay dollars for 

         24           charter schools?

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It's not to have a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           school ready for September.  I mean, I wish I could 

          2           tell you that we do, but --

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you were told that, you 

          4           might have been misled because I don't think that 

          5           money --

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They flow through the 

          7           district.  They're done on an annual basis, and 

          8           there's no way that the SIT fund -- unless the 

          9           county wants --

         10                REVEREND EVANS:  I really --

         11                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- to redo what 

         12           they're doing or something.

         13                REVEREND EVANS:  I really believe that was the 

         14           whole agenda for us to --

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Could you start school this 

         16           September?

         17                REVEREND EVANS:  With the help of the State, 

         18           yes.

         19                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well now, what would 

         20           you expect the State to do?  'Cause I think I'm 

         21           speaking sort of for the State --

         22                REVEREND EVANS:  Start-up money.  That would 

         23           certainly help us to get started and moving in the 

         24           direction that we need to go.

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Give me an idea of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           how much you're talking about as a start fund?

          2                REVEREND EVANS:  $75,000.

          3                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  What's that going to 

          4           do for a facility?  Where are these children going 

          5           to go to get an education.  You've got 10 acres, 

          6           but is there a building on these 10 acres?

          7                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Yes, sir.  He does have a 

          8           structured educational building, and what they were 

          9           going to do is, they were going to use modulars to 

         10           accommodate them for the rest of the space that 

         11           they needed to deliver educational instruction.

         12                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, you've got $500 

         13           a month.  Now, how much modulars can you rent with 

         14           $500 a month?  I mean, that's what the budget has 

         15           for the facility.

         16                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Okay.  Here again is -- 

         17           Commissioner, here again, we did not -- like I 

         18           said, they was working on the budgets and the 

         19           updated budgets and to have all of those issues 

         20           clarified, but they weren't given a chance to do 

         21           that, plus the fact that the church was going to 

         22           support the charter school in terms of the money.

         23                You're correct.  Out of that, you cannot do 

         24           it, but they've got -- the church has the money to 

         25           help and support of those efforts, a collaboration 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           between the church and the school.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You know, but you 

          3           present something here -- you make it really hard 

          4           for us.  I mean, I can tell you, I'm a charter 

          5           school advocate.  I want to see charter schools 

          6           open and be successful, but I don't want to see 

          7           them fail.

          8                To have this budget sit there and not get 

          9           changed and realizing that you need to do it, and 

         10           say it's not going to be until July or something, I 

         11           mean, it puts us in a bad position here.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Just as -- we're dealing with 

         13           reality here about when any of these applicants, 

         14           not just this one, could start which is the start 

         15           of the school year.  Out of curiosity, why are we 

         16           dealing with this in June?

         17                Did we slow down the process, because it's 

         18           kind of late in the game for the districts and the 

         19           schools now for us to be reversing track to get -- 

         20           I mean, I've been there.  I've done this.  It took 

         21           us -- the cement was settling on the flagpole the 

         22           day that we opened for school at the Liberty City 

         23           Charter School.

         24                It was a herculean effort to get it all done, 

         25           and we got an approval in June as well.  It was a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           nightmare.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, and you had a 

          3           building.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, we had to fix it.  We 

          5           had the same situation, and we had to raise the 

          6           money.  Did we delay?  Did we defer discussions on 

          7           this enough so that we're getting into this time 

          8           crunch?

          9                MR. PIERSON:  Thirty days.

         10                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  On May 23rd we 

         11           deferred it to today.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  Commissioner Crawford?

         13                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I think the school 

         14           board's position, which I think is reasonable, they 

         15           want to see a complete package for them to approve 

         16           it.  I think, at this point, to get that package 

         17           ready by September is not as feasible.

         18                Hopefully you'll come back and reapply and 

         19           give it a chance to work out all these things.  At 

         20           this time, I think I would move that we affirm the 

         21           actions of the school board.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second?

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any further discussion?

         25                SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, Katherine?

          2                SECRETARY HARRIS:  I have a different outlook 

          3           on this.  I would just like to share it.  That is 

          4           from the perspective, according to the statutes, it 

          5           says that you have to, within 10 days, articulate 

          6           in writing specific reasons.

          7                With the four different schools, when you look 

          8           at either deficiencies or how well some of them are 

          9           written, I didn't really think that was addressing 

         10           what you were required to do by statute in terms of 

         11           giving specific answers.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You're referring to the school 

         13           district?

         14                SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.  And also, when you 

         15           start looking in terms of good cause for denial, 

         16           some of these things they didn't do, but if you 

         17           read it, specifically when you read what the 

         18           Jacksonville School Board requests, it says that a 

         19           conditional approval of a charter school can be 

         20           granted prior to the final submission of the 

         21           document.

         22                I think any rational person, when you read 

         23           this -- it goes on to say in the language, it says, 

         24           all these things that can be done ahead of time.   

         25           It seemed to me that it was only fair for these 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           applicants to submit these, even if the budget was 

          2           in the process, that you didn't have to do the 

          3           board of governors and all these kinds of things, 

          4           so they submitted it.

          5                But then the school board comes back and says 

          6           that -- they argued that the language in their 

          7           application doesn't create any rights that the 

          8           appellants can rely on.  Also, they say, well, just 

          9           because we gave you this instruction book, and 

         10           these are instructions of what you need to do in 

         11           the process, you can't count on that.

         12                So instead, you have to give us something, you 

         13           know, a new product.  I think there was something 

         14           missing in that process because I think that this 

         15           was more a conditional approval; so I don't 

         16           think -- I guess what I'm saying, to end, is that I 

         17           think that they didn't believe that they were 

         18           submitting final documentation, and that the school 

         19           board now is being able to say -- is permitted to 

         20           say that the failure to submit that final 

         21           documentation is good cause for denial.

         22                I mean, it seemed to me it's conditional, and 

         23           that, to me, is wrong.  I think there was a 

         24           disconnect of communication because some of these 

         25           applications are good.  I mean, a couple of them 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           are, and, in fact, if you go back to --

          2                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  We're only talking 

          3           about this application.  I'm not arguing the 

          4           governance issue.  I'm arguing the budget, and I'm 

          5           telling you the school board is not without a 

          6           parachute.

          7                I mean, they've done some pretty dumb things 

          8           as far as I can see, including the reason why it's 

          9           late is they delayed the submission.  They pushed 

         10           it back.  They're the ones that delayed the time in 

         11           this; so they're not walking around with nice white 

         12           gloves on, but the budget, I don't care if the 

         13           governance situation -- the budget should have been 

         14           in order before anybody said, yea or nay on this.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have any -- and I 

         16           concur with what both Secretary Harris and General 

         17           Milligan said.  Just to try to bring a little bit 

         18           of closure here, if this was granted -- if your 

         19           request was granted, could you start in September?

         20                REVEREND SIMPSON:  No, sir.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That was the first question.   

         22           Thank you.  Secondly, do you have working capital 

         23           in your -- for your -- do you have money in the 

         24           bank?

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  From the church.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  From the church or from -- 

          2           this is a separate 501C3, I assume.

          3                REVEREND EVANS:  Yes, sir.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have money in the bank?

          5                REVEREND EVANS:  A small portion.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Small being --

          7                REVEREND EVANS:  Not enough to start.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- bigger than a breadbasket?

          9                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Do you have $1,000 or 

         10           $10,000?

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How much?

         12                REVEREND EVANS:  I would probably have to turn 

         13           to my administrator for that, but a breadbasket.   

         14           I'm being honest.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's good.  I appreciate 

         16           your honesty because the biggest problem with 

         17           charter schools has been, across the state, the 

         18           lack of liquidity.  The best people with great 

         19           intentions tend to draw down on the Impact Academy 

         20           issue.

         21                It may have gone way beyond that.  I don't 

         22           know, but these are -- you need working capital, 

         23           but based on the fact that you couldn't start up, 

         24           even if we approved it now, for whatever reason, it 

         25           sounds like -- I hope it wasn't intended to get to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           this point by the school district where we're in 

          2           this position because of delays.

          3                If you don't have the working capital and you 

          4           don't have the school ready for September, I think 

          5           we -- I would concur with Commissioner Crawford's 

          6           statement on this application.

          7                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Let me say this, if I 

          8           may, Florida Statutes allow you to request from us, 

          9           the Department of Education -- in fact, I'll read 

         10           it to you (as read):

         11                "The Department of Education may provide 

         12           technical assistance to an applicant upon written 

         13           request."

         14                Let me ask you to request some assistance from 

         15           us, and let us help you work through these 

         16           problems, and let you know how much capital you're 

         17           going to need, and let you figure out if you can 

         18           get that capital to make the thing work.

         19                It will not work with just the cash flow money 

         20           from the school board.  You have to have other 

         21           moneys involved; otherwise, you're going to get in 

         22           trouble.  I'll offer our help from the Department 

         23           of Education to help you get open next year and go 

         24           through the process so that you'll be able to have 

         25           success with a charter school if you can come up 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           with the needed resources to do it.

          2                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Our position, Mr. Governor 

          3           and Cabinet, has not been to not do it correctly 

          4           and to not do it right.  There is a meanness in 

          5           Jacksonville that is about -- the school board 

          6           that's about FTE dollars, and it's not about 

          7           charter schools in terms of helping the kids in 

          8           terms of that population.

          9                They have been very successful in -- we have a 

         10           cap on 28.  We have six now.  Two of those out of 

         11           the six that built already told me that they were 

         12           going to shut down because they want to send a 

         13           message to you as well as to the Governor of the 

         14           State of the Florida.

         15                We have no reason to tell you an untruth.   

         16           These people could have fixed whatever the 

         17           deficiencies are, plus the fact that if they were 

         18           given an opportunity -- and the Cabinet aides did 

         19           recommend that we go back and work with the school 

         20           district, and we tried to do that, but they wanted 

         21           the school district -- the school board wanted to 

         22           come up here because they would not accept the 

         23           recommendation of the Cabinet aide.

         24                We did not want to reapply.  We wanted to work 

         25           what -- we know that it's too late in the game now 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           to start over -- I mean, plus the fact of opening, 

          2           but we needed that assurance just like we did with 

          3           Radar (phonetic).  They was approved for a year.

          4                They went back.  They were not able to open 

          5           then, but they opened a year later.  We need that 

          6           same assurance .  We would like to have it.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

          8                (No response.)

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion to deny the 

         10           appeal, I think, is the way we would say it.  Is 

         11           there was a second?  I think there already is a 

         12           second.  All in favor say aye.

         13                (Affirmative response.)

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         15                (No response.)

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The denial is passed, but I 

         17           do -- if you're looking for a validation to get it 

         18           right, subject to the budget issues and governance 

         19           issues and having a working capital and having the 

         20           coalition that I know that you have, there's no 

         21           reason why you shouldn't be able to work out your 

         22           issues at the school district, which they have 

         23           stated on the record now that they're a strong 

         24           supporter of charter schools.  You can deal with 

         25           these issues that I think can be worked out.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                REVEREND SIMPSON:  Thank you, Governor.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We appreciate you coming.

          3                REVEREND SIMPSON:  All right.  Thank you.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Item three.

          5                MR. PIERSON:  For the record, these appeals 

          6           were deferred from the May 9th meeting, not the May 

          7           23rd meeting.  Item 3 is the Jacksonville Learning 

          8           Institute Charter School, Incorporated, versus the 

          9           Duval County School Board.  For the charter school 

         10           is Dr. Jenetta Norman and Attorney Noel Lawrence.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

         12                MR. LAWRENCE:  May it please the Cabinet and 

         13           Honorable Governor --

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Excuse me, before you start, I 

         15           think it might -- you got a sense of what our 

         16           questions are and what the concerns might be.  You 

         17           may want to focus on those issues to give us a 

         18           little bit of guidance so we can move this along.   

         19           Does that make sense?

         20                MR. LAWRENCE:  Certainly, Governor.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         22                MR. LAWRENCE:  May it please the Cabinet -- 

         23           the Honorable Governor and Cabinet Members, I 

         24           have -- just before I start my presentation, I have 

         25           with me Dr. Jenetta Norman, who is standing to my 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           left, and with me some members of the board such as 

          2           Mr. Hurst and Mr. Morgan from Jacksonville -- 

          3           excuse me, Dr. Hurst.

          4                Now, Dr. Norman, it's clear by the submission 

          5           of the items that are on the record, is a very 

          6           knowledgeable individual who has a lot of 

          7           experience in dealing with student issues.  She 

          8           worked at the district level for several years 

          9           supervising over 30 schools, and at one point, she 

         10           was a specialist with the special ed department for 

         11           45 years, a principal for 21 years, did budgeting 

         12           for 22 years and the director for the tutoring 

         13           program.

         14                Now, the school board seemed to place a lot of 

         15           emphasis on the fact that she did not have the 

         16           articles of incorporation for Jacksonville Learning 

         17           Institute, Inc., on February 23rd, 2000, and I 

         18           think that's a misguided approach because the 

         19           statute clearly says that the proposal for a new 

         20           charter school may be made by an individual, the 

         21           teachers, the parents, a group of individuals, or a 

         22           legal entity organized under the laws of the state.

         23                It does state further on, under legal entity, 

         24           that a charter school shall organize as a nonprofit 

         25           organization; so the statute envisioned that the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           proposal can be submitted by any of these people 

          2           including the entity that was proposed by Dr. 

          3           Norman.

          4                It's not until you get to contract 

          5           negotiations that a legal entity is necessary, and 

          6           certainly not until you start operating the charter 

          7           school that you need a legal entity.  That was the 

          8           interpretation throughout the application process 

          9           which, for the Cabinet's benefit, started July 

         10           1999.

         11                The applications were submitted in fall of -- 

         12           roughly October 1999.  They were reviewed by a 

         13           committee staff members of about 13 people, 

         14           individuals, who worked with the school board.   

         15           These are staff people who are instructional 

         16           research, from the budget office, from the 

         17           certification of the human resources, routing 

         18           specialist from region 3, facilities fiscal 

         19           planning, and the supervisor for ESOL, food 

         20           services of the general director for student 

         21           services.

         22                (Secretary Harris exits room.)

         23                MR. LAWRENCE:  These people initially reviewed 

         24           the application and denied for the reasons.  At no 

         25           time in that denial -- that was in November -- was 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           there any denial based on the articles of 

          2           incorporation.

          3                They were asked to amend the application with 

          4           certain information which was supplied just before 

          5           Christmas 1999.  Then by January -- I think it was 

          6           January 3 -- this particular charter proposal was 

          7           recommended for approval by the staff.  In fact, 

          8           they went as far as to indicate that this charter 

          9           school, Jacksonville Learning Institute -- this 

         10           proposed charter school seeks to promote an 

         11           environment of academic rigor and excellence.

         12                They talk about the organizers, and they 

         13           indicated at the bottom that a proposal can be 

         14           approved without the selection of a facility.  That 

         15           is of January 3, 2000 which was after the time that 

         16           they, the school board, had been notified about 

         17           Impact and certainly way after the time that the 

         18           staff, including the superintendent, was notified 

         19           about the problems with Impact.

         20                To change the process midstream is a violation 

         21           of due process.  The application clearly says from 

         22           the Duval County School Board that the articles of 

         23           incorporation and the governance documents are not 

         24           required until July 14th 2000.

         25                It's not required until after provisional 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           approval from the board, and, in fact, the statute 

          2           envisioned that it wouldn't be required until then; 

          3           so I think the school board, when they changed 

          4           their policy all of a sudden on February 23, 2000, 

          5           was misguided.

          6                I think it's unconstitutional, and I think for 

          7           a lot of reasons, that they changed midstream, and 

          8           it's unfair, and it's unfortunate, and they've 

          9           emulated form over substance at this point.  The 

         10           Jacksonville Learning Institute, Inc., should have 

         11           been conditionally approved.

         12                The diversity of the board is unquestioned.   

         13           The proposal which you already have is very 

         14           lengthy.  It talks about the academic programs, all 

         15           the other substance that the statute requires for 

         16           conditional approval.

         17                They have also had a community support 

         18           documentation that was submitted to the school 

         19           board; so there was no substantive reason for the 

         20           denial, and I challenge the school board to 

         21           articulate good cause rather than the form over 

         22           substance argument that they're currently resting 

         23           their hats on.

         24                I want to point out to the Cabinet that the 

         25           school board members themselves made comments about 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the organization of the school in terms of the 

          2           individuals that are involved.  Ms. Wilkinson said:

          3                "Let me say this to you -- and I can only 

          4           speak for myself, but I sense from what Mr. Jordan 

          5           has said and the way he said it, you know, I've 

          6           been one that's been hard on charter schools, and 

          7           you're one that I could have voted for because I've 

          8           known you and I've watched you for many years do 

          9           such wonderful work for children in our school 

         10           district.

         11                "And we're caught between a rock and a hard 

         12           place, and there's no place for us to go but to say 

         13           we can't do it because we don't have the legal 

         14           entity to do it with.  And if we could just do it 

         15           with you and not deal with this stuff, I would do 

         16           it.  You know and you said you won't go to 

         17           Tallahassee."

         18                Another board member said -- this is Mr. 

         19           Jordan.  He says:

         20                "Dr. Norman, in no way does the no vote in any 

         21           way reflect on your ability, your contributions and 

         22           what you've done for the children in this 

         23           community.  I recognize that.  I know where your 

         24           heart is planted, but I want you to please 

         25           understand that you have this board member and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           other board members in a position we have no 

          2           choice.

          3                "We have to vote tonight so that we can.  You 

          4           can exercise -- you have the right to exercise your 

          5           option, and this is it.  I want you to understand 

          6           that if you have the articles of incorporation, I 

          7           would have voted for you.  I'll tell you right now 

          8           that's where we are.  We'll always be appreciative 

          9           of what you have done."

         10                Finally, the last board member that made a 

         11           comment, Ms. Sparks, who is here present.  She 

         12           says:

         13                "Dr. Norman, I have the highest respect and 

         14           regard for you, and just let me add my best wishes 

         15           along with all of my colleagues to you in 

         16           appreciation for all what you have meant to this 

         17           district.  I hope that we haven't seen the last of 

         18           your talent and good heart here.

         19                "And again, our legal counsel is saying that 

         20           Jacksonville Learning Institute does not exist; so 

         21           again, I just wanted for the record to share with 

         22           you and say, I, too wish to have supported you."

         23                I submit to the Cabinet that Jacksonville 

         24           Learning Institute, Inc., didn't need to exist as a 

         25           legal entity for purposes of the conditional 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           approval.

          2                (Commissioner Crawford exits room.)

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can we get that confirmed by 

          4           -- I mean, has that been confirmed by the DOE?   

          5           This is a question -- your point about form over 

          6           substance is pretty compelling.  In terms of the 

          7           process for an application to a school district, do 

          8           you have to have -- there was a comment made by a 

          9           gentleman about July 14th being the deadline, I 

         10           believe, for all of this.  Is that accurate?

         11                MS. WILLARD:  My name is Andrea Willard.  I 

         12           work for you in the Department of Education.  Under 

         13           the current charter law, that deadline is allowable 

         14           for the district to set.  The state law does not 

         15           require that, nor is there a deadline for that.   

         16           Simply by the time the charter is sent, there must 

         17           be one.

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Just so -- what 

         19           you're saying is that there is not a rule -- there 

         20           is no law that says that they have to have the 

         21           entity formed when they go to the school board.  Is 

         22           that what you're saying?

         23                MS. WILLARD:  In the application process; 

         24           that's correct.

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They don't have to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           have the entity formed when they put their 

          2           application in?

          3                MS. WILLARD:  Right.

          4                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Obviously, they're 

          5           going to have the entity formed before they get --

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They don't have to have it 

          7           prior to the application; so all the comments, good 

          8           comments made by the school board members saying, 

          9           boy, if you had it, if you were incorporated, we 

         10           would have approved you, may be based on faulty 

         11           legal information.

         12                MS. WILLARD:  The law does not speak one way 

         13           or the other.  In the absence of an actual 

         14           statement, then it is a local decision.

         15                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So they could make it 

         16           their requirement.

         17                MS. WILLARD:  It is the Duval County's 

         18           requirement.

         19                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Ask Duval County --

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  Well, be prepared to 

         21           answer that at the time, but let them finish up.  I 

         22           think that's a point worth clearing up.

         23                MR. LAWRENCE:  Sure.  I just want to point out 

         24           that they do have an application process, and 

         25           nowhere in the application it says that you have to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           have the articles of incorporation for provisional 

          2           approval.

          3                In fact, it says on there, for final 

          4           documentation, that the articles of incorporation 

          5           bylaws and the whole nine yards should be submitted 

          6           for final documentation by July 14, 2000.  I think 

          7           the rules were changed --

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's in their application?

          9                MR. LAWRENCE:  -- in their application process 

         10           itself.  I submit to the body that looking  at the 

         11           statute, it's clearly says the proposal can be made 

         12           by an individual, teachers, parents or group of 

         13           individuals or a legal entity organized under the 

         14           laws of the state; so it can be proposed by anyone 

         15           else.  I think it's when you get to the contract 

         16           negotiations stage that you need articles of 

         17           incorporation.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments?

         19                MR. LAWRENCE:  No, thanks.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Doctor, would you like to 

         21           briefly -- maybe you can answer, if you get this 

         22           approval, would you be able to start up?  Do you 

         23           have the working capital?  Are you ready to rock?

         24                DR. NORMAN:  Right.  Yes.  Thank you, Governor 

         25           Bush and to the Cabinet.  I want to say that I'm 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           going to urge you today to please recommend 

          2           approval of the Jacksonville Learning Institute 

          3           Charter School.

          4                It's based on the Jacksonville community's 

          5           need for a program of this quality for special 

          6           needs children.  These are special needs children, 

          7           and I am going to partner up with the Jacksonville 

          8           Symphony Orchestra.

          9                We're going to take the kids from the ghetto 

         10           that end up in special ed classes and those that 

         11           are already tested in special ed classes, and team 

         12           up with the symphony, team them up with field trips 

         13           where they will go and get some culture in life.

         14                We're going to test them at the beginning of 

         15           the year, test them at the end of the year to see 

         16           how much progress we can make.  These are the 

         17           children, that are in the school system right now 

         18           in the schools, they seem not to be able to know 

         19           what to do with.

         20                I believe, as far as the budget is concerned, 

         21           that due to my past and present experiences with 

         22           the budget and boys with the Duval County School 

         23           Board, approximately 22 years, I am qualified and 

         24           certified to operate a budget.

         25                I have never had any problems with the budget.  

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           The last school I was to, Palmetto Exceptional 

          2           Student Center, I was there for 15 years and 

          3           operated on a shoestring budget, but I made it 

          4           work; so I do know what to do with a budget.

          5                The other thing is that with this pilot 

          6           program -- and I want to make my plea to the school 

          7           board members.  I plan to work with you, and I want 

          8           to work with you in harmony; so I do not hold any 

          9           misunderstandings in any way, because we cannot 

         10           make it work if you're pulling one way and I'm 

         11           pulling another.

         12                Now, based a little bit on my experience, not 

         13           with the school board, I am currently chairperson 

         14           of the Jacksonville Human Rights Commission for 

         15           Jacksonville, Florida.  I'm the chairperson of the 

         16           Urban Poor Citizen Planning Action Committee for 

         17           Jacksonville, Florida.  I'm the secretary of the 

         18           Planning and Zoning Commission, Jacksonville, 

         19           Florida.

         20                I'm a member of the board for the advocates of 

         21           a better Jacksonville, and a member of the census 

         22           committee; so I have done a lot.  I've had a lot of 

         23           experience, and I don't see why I would drop to a 

         24           level where I could not run a charter school with 

         25           100, no more than 200 students.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                I can meet the challenge.  I have the money.   

          2           I have an empowerment committee that's sitting by, 

          3           and I would not name those people right now until 

          4           we get conditional approval.  You cannot raise 

          5           money and funds for a program that does not exist.   

          6           If we had gotten conditional approval, the money 

          7           would be there.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you have the building?

          9                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You could open in September?

         11                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

         13                DR. NORMAN:  One other thing that --

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We've kind of gone past the 10 

         15           minutes unless there's something that's really 

         16           urgent.  You'll get another shot at this, I'm sure.   

         17           Let's hear from --

         18                MR. PIERSON:  Ms. Chastain.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Ms. Chastain, welcome.

         20                (Commissioner Crawford enters room.)

         21                MS. CHASTAIN:  Governor and Members of the 

         22           Cabinet, my name is Karen Chastain.  I'm assistant 

         23           general counsel with the Office of General Counsel 

         24           representing the Duval County School District.   

         25           There are interesting questions that have been 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           raised here.

          2                The first one I wish to address is whether an 

          3           applicant must be incorporated, or form the 

          4           partnership, or take whatever necessary business 

          5           organizational activities are required in order to 

          6           be eligible for conditional approval, and certainly 

          7           by the time the charter agreement is entered into.

          8                I think the real issue here is not form over 

          9           substance, but really goes to the substance of the 

         10           matter.  In this particular instance, in the 

         11           application, the applicant indicated that it was, 

         12           in fact, incorporated, and it was not.

         13                When staff discovered this, members of staff 

         14           personally contacted Dr. Norman -- first, it was 

         15           Evelyn Toots, who is the charter school 

         16           coordinator, and then at least on two occasions, by 

         17           Vicky Reynolds, who is in the audience right now -- 

         18           asking Dr. Norman to be sure to file the articles 

         19           of incorporation so that the statements within the 

         20           application can be corroborated, if you will, with 

         21           a set of corporate documents.

         22                This was so the confusion, within the four 

         23           corners of the application, as to who was 

         24           controlling the corporation, how will it be 

         25           governed can be resolved one way or the other by 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the corporate documents that were asked to be 

          2           submitted.

          3                (Governor Bush exits room.)

          4                MS. CHASTAIN:  Unfortunately this did not 

          5           happen after the school board hearing; so to the 

          6           extent that articles of incorporation are now 

          7           included in the record before you, that that 

          8           actually is not appropriately included within the 

          9           record.

         10                This statement in the application, they were 

         11           incorporated, raises some substantive concerns.   

         12           Either one of two things may have happened.  Either 

         13           it was a lack of candor, but it's more likely a 

         14           lack of appreciation and understanding of the 

         15           corporate form and what is to be required.

         16                This is demonstrated by things that were 

         17           included within the initial application.  For 

         18           example, articles of incorporation and a 501C3 

         19           determination letter from the IRS for a third-party 

         20           corporation, that from being from Macedonia Gulf, a 

         21           development corporation, whose stated purpose is to 

         22           promote affordable housing, no mention of 

         23           education, were submitted within the application as 

         24           if that were to satisfy the requirements.

         25                Unfortunately the inclusion of those items 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           really added to confusion which the board members, 

          2           certainly by the time this application got to that 

          3           level, had serious concerns about because, again, 

          4           within the four corners of the application, there 

          5           was extreme confusion as to who was in charge and 

          6           how would this be operated.

          7                (Governor Bush enters room.)

          8                The statute requires that these types of 

          9           matters be considered in advance by the district, 

         10           and as a practical matter, when one is entering 

         11           into contract negotiations, we would need to know 

         12           with who we are dealing, who is in charge, and who 

         13           has the authority to negotiate on behalf of the 

         14           applicants, if you will.

         15                The district has no quarrel about the 

         16           qualifications of Dr. Norman in educational 

         17           matters, but to the extent that the platform, if 

         18           you will, the business platform, that being 

         19           articles of incorporation or corporate governance 

         20           issues, if you will, and budget matters, if those 

         21           items are missing, no matter how innovative your 

         22           program for the applicant may be, it is likely to 

         23           fail if there is poor business planning involved.

         24                This has actually not been a change of policy 

         25           on behalf of the district, but really in the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           context of this application trying to determine who 

          2           actually is the applicant and who will be running 

          3           the operation.

          4                To date, there has been really very little 

          5           effort to correct the matters that are of concern 

          6           in the district.  There are still questions that 

          7           are raised by the articles of incorporation that 

          8           were belatedly submitted by the applicant which 

          9           would need resolution.

         10                There are certain budget matters that are of 

         11           concern to the district as well.  Those items were 

         12           articulated during the February 23rd hearing.   

         13           Notably, it appears that the sources of revenue per 

         14           student may have been slightly overstated.

         15                In and of itself, that may not be fatal, but 

         16           you need to keep it in mind when you look at 

         17           certain items that are missing within the budget, 

         18           certain expenses that are missing.  The applicant 

         19           states that they have a lease for the property at 

         20           certainly below-market rent.

         21                They've only allocated $500 a month for 

         22           utilities which seems low.  Absent verification 

         23           from a donor landlord, it's hard to determine 

         24           whether that is appropriate or not.  The budget 

         25           within the application lacks certain expenses such 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           as textbooks, classroom supplies and educational 

          2           materials, again the very purpose for which this 

          3           organization is proposed and organized and would 

          4           cause concern to the district.

          5                Again, as with corporate governance, budget 

          6           items need to be scrutinized in advance, and I 

          7           would submit to you that the district considered 

          8           this application very carefully, as did the board 

          9           members.

         10                Certainly Dr. Norman's reputation preceded 

         11           her, as evidenced by the transcript, a great deal 

         12           of respect and admiration for her work as an 

         13           educator.  But again, the concern being that 

         14           without a sound business platform, no matter how 

         15           great your skills are as an educator, and how 

         16           wonderful your program is, you need that sound 

         17           business planning in order to effectuate and offer 

         18           the stability and the stable environment for the 

         19           children who the applicant is trying to serve.

         20                If there are any questions, I would be happy 

         21           to address them.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How do you explain the July 

         23           14th, in your own rules, the July 14th deadline for 

         24           the submission of all the things that you say they 

         25           didn't have when they applied and therefore were 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           rejected?

          2                MS. CHASTAIN:  I have a couple of responses to 

          3           that.  First of all, I believe that this is a form 

          4           that came from the charter school office at some 

          5           point at the genesis of it. I'm not certain when.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  2000 Duval County Charter 

          7           School application, it says.

          8                MS. CHASTAIN:  I understand that.  I believe 

          9           it was retyped using the format that was proposed 

         10           by the charter school office, but be that as it may 

         11           -- and it may have been from years ago.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you saying this isn't the 

         13           policy of the county, the school district?

         14                MS. CHASTAIN:  I'm sorry?  

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you saying that the policy 

         16           as to this little piece I have is not accurate, 

         17           does not reflect the policy of the school district?

         18                MS. CHASTAIN:  I believe what the application 

         19           says is that the district may consider, does not 

         20           require that it consider, but may consider 

         21           conditional approval absent this documentation.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Right.  So this conditional 

         23           approval of a charter school may be granted prior 

         24           to the final submission of these documents.  That's 

         25           what it says.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MS. CHASTAIN:  Right.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You don't have to, but you 

          3           could.  Based on all the positive statements made 

          4           about the sponsor of this charter school 

          5           application, I'm kind of confused about why one 

          6           would want to try to stop this based on just this 

          7           form rather than the substance, since the substance 

          8           appears to have been -- and we have budget 

          9           questions, I'm sure, but at least as it relates to 

         10           the applicant and the board and their efforts, they 

         11           seem to have been, based on the transcript of the 

         12           board meeting, fairly positive statements.

         13                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, what I'd 

         14           like is a response from the applicant on the issue 

         15           of apparently there was some representation that 

         16           they were a corporation when, in fact, they 

         17           weren't.

         18                Then some other corporation was mentioned 

         19           which I couldn't figure out what that was all 

         20           about.  Since they've now heard your comments, they 

         21           can respond to those points.

         22                MR. LAWRENCE:  Sure.  Noel Lawrence again, for 

         23           the record.  I just want to point out that legal 

         24           counsel was not involved when the proposal was 

         25           submitted, but I can point out that the statute 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           clearly says that the proposal can be made by even 

          2           a third party.

          3                Then incorporation was submitted by Macedonia; 

          4           so they are the proposer, although they're not the 

          5           name of the charter school.  The name of the 

          6           charter school -- I mean, the incorporation of the 

          7           charter school must be done after the conditional 

          8           approval, but before a contract is approved and 

          9           certainly before the school operates.

         10                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Was the representation 

         11           made that the charter school was already 

         12           incorporated?

         13                MR. LAWRENCE:  No.  The representation at the 

         14           board meeting, as I read the transcript, was that 

         15           the charter school is being incorporated.  Because 

         16           my client is here, and she will tell you that 

         17           someone has gone to Tallahassee -- in the record, 

         18           it says somebody has gone to Tallahassee to 

         19           incorporate the Jacksonville Learning Institute, 

         20           Inc., which was delegated to a Mr. Jones.  Mr. 

         21           Jones is a CPA, Lee Jones.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you incorporated now?

         23                MR. LAWRENCE:  Yes.  It was incorporated and 

         24           it's retroactive to February 23, 2000.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, Commissioner.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                TREASURER NELSON:  May I ask the counselor to 

          2           the school board a question?  As I understand it, 

          3           the applicant was given three attempts to revise 

          4           the application, and after the third revision, the 

          5           charter school review committee made a favorable 

          6           recommendation to the school board that the staff 

          7           recommended, and that when the school board voted, 

          8           that it was on a close vote of 4 to 3 to deny; is 

          9           that correct?

         10                MS. CHASTAIN:  No, not exactly.  In this case, 

         11           all of the applicants had three opportunities to 

         12           submit and amend their application.  This 

         13           applicant, however, received a favorable staff 

         14           recommendation on round 2.  The staff took at face 

         15           value the statement in the application that it was 

         16           incorporated.

         17                When Ms. Toots subsequently discovered that it 

         18           was not incorporated, she personally contacted, via 

         19           telephone, Dr. Norman and advised her of this 

         20           discrepancy, and asked that she submit the articles 

         21           of incorporation to corroborate the statements 

         22           within the application and clear up the confusion.

         23                When Ms. Toots felt that her comments were not 

         24           being heard, she enlisted the help of Vicky 

         25           Reynolds to contact Dr. Norman as well, which Ms. 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Reynolds did on two occasions.

          2                Each time, it is my understanding, that Dr. 

          3           Norman advised the person making the request, 

          4           whether it was Ms. Toots or Ms. Reynolds, that it 

          5           was being taken care of, and that this would be 

          6           corrected.  Unfortunately as of February 23rd, it 

          7           was not.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But again, that is only -- you 

          9           didn't have to deny the request by February 23rd 

         10           based on your own guidelines, correct?

         11                MS. CHASTAIN:  I believe I misunderstood your 

         12           question as to February 23rd being an absolute 

         13           deadline.  Was that the question?

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  No.  The question was back to 

         15           these documents -- final authorization to operate a 

         16           charter school will certainly be contingent upon a 

         17           submission of these documents that we're referring 

         18           to, and documents must be submitted to the Duval 

         19           County School Board by July 14th, year 2000.

         20                MS. CHASTAIN:  I believe there's a difference 

         21           between -- I believe it says, final governance 

         22           document.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Final authorization.  It says 

         24           conditional approval of a charter school may be 

         25           granted prior to the final submission of these 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           documents.  The documents, I assume, are all the 

          2           documents that you require including the articles 

          3           of incorporation.

          4                You have the power -- you had the power 

          5           February 23rd to approve this subject to getting 

          6           the articles of incorporation.  You-all decided to 

          7           do something different which is to deny it, hence 

          8           we're here.  Is that correct?

          9                MS. CHASTAIN:  Ms. Gibson would like to --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, this is a legal 

         11           question.

         12                MS. CHASTAIN:  Well, Ms. Gibson is a lawyer.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.  You also work in 

         14           the legal office?

         15                MS. GIBSON:  No, sir.  Gwen Gibson, Duval 

         16           County School Board member.  Governor, I think the 

         17           confusion that is here today is the fact that the 

         18           applicants submitted, to our staff, documents 

         19           reflecting a separate corporation that was a 

         20           corporation from a church.

         21                When we asked information regarding the board 

         22           of directors, exactly who would be the governing 

         23           board of the Jacksonville Learning Institute, we 

         24           were never able to get any answers; so the 

         25           confusion was that there was in their application 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           documents from another corporation, as far as the 

          2           501C3, but we never got any documentation in 

          3           regards to the Jacksonville Learning Institute, and 

          4           therefore, we had no indication as to who was on 

          5           the governing board.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you know now?

          7                MS. GIBSON:  Pardon?

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do you know now?

          9                MS. GIBSON:  No, we do not.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You've never been given 

         11           information --

         12                MS. GIBSON:  The application regarding the 

         13           governing board for the Jacksonville Learning 

         14           Institute came after the board approval on February 

         15           23rd.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The board denied it.

         17                MS. GIBSON:  The board denied the application 

         18           because of the fact we did not have a legal 

         19           entity --

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know.  I understand that.

         21                MS. GIBSON:  -- that we understood that we 

         22           could determine who, in fact --

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Help me out.

         24                MS. GIBSON:  Yes.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Tell me if you now know that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           there is articles of incorporation, and do you know 

          2           who the board members are?  Are you disapproving of 

          3           who the board members are?

          4                MS. GIBSON:  No.  We have not acted on the 

          5           application since February 23rd.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I didn't ask that.  I asked 

          7           politely -- I mean, I'm sorry.  I'm getting a 

          8           little bit tired.  Do you know who is on the board 

          9           of directors of this applicant now?

         10                MS. GIBSON:  No.  Nothing has been --

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Does anybody in the school 

         12           district know who the quality of this board is?

         13                MS. GIBSON:  We have not had a recommendation 

         14           from the superintendent or the staff subsequent to 

         15           February 23rd in regards to the board of directors 

         16           for Jacksonville Learning Institute.

         17                MS. CHASTAIN:  I can elaborate a little bit 

         18           further on that, if I may.  To the extent that 

         19           we're being asked to consider the articles of 

         20           incorporation that were filed after the hearing and 

         21           therefore is outside of the records, 

         22           notwithstanding our objection that that be 

         23           considered, I have reviewed those articles of 

         24           incorporation.

         25                I note the following things which are outlined 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           in our reply.  First of all, at the board hearing 

          2           on February 23rd, a list of names was submitted for 

          3           consideration as persons who might be controlling 

          4           this organization.  When you compare that list with 

          5           the list that is going to be now filed, belatedly 

          6           articles of incorporation, there are new 

          7           individuals.

          8                Some are deleted, and some are gone.   

          9           Therefore, the district has not had the opportunity 

         10           to evaluate the composition of this board.  I also 

         11           note that the articles of incorporation show that 

         12           this is a member corporation, much like a 

         13           shareholder in a for-profit corporation has the 

         14           ultimate control of a for-profit corporation, in 

         15           that they insert directors and so on and so forth.

         16                The counterpart to that in the not-for-profit 

         17           corporation is the member.  We don't know who the 

         18           members are; so again, we still don't know who is 

         19           in charge of this organization, and who is running 

         20           the show.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Theoretically -- this is only 

         22           in theory -- if this application was approved, do 

         23           you think that you could get comfortable with the 

         24           board of directors, answer to your questions about 

         25           your articles of incorporation prior to July 23rd, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           which is the deadline in your own rules, that these 

          2           documents had to have been submitted?

          3                MS. CHASTAIN:  First of all, with respect to 

          4           this, quote, deadline, it was understood by this 

          5           applicant, as well as all of the applicants, that 

          6           we wanted to see corporate documents.  We wanted to 

          7           understand who they were, who was in control, and 

          8           how the organization will be governed.  That 

          9           document is permissive, but --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They're all shaking their 

         11           heads behind you.  I'm just curious.  Do you think 

         12           you could be comfortable by the 23rd?

         13                MS. CHASTAIN:  I'm aware of that.  They do it 

         14           every single time, but unfortunately, the facts are 

         15           that they were contacted with the understanding and 

         16           with the desire that these documents be submitted, 

         17           and failure to do so would be at their peril.

         18                With respect to whether we can get comfortable 

         19           with this, certainly it's going to require board 

         20           action because the district board is entitled and 

         21           has a statutory duty to monitor --

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.  That's why I 

         23           asked that question.

         24                MS. CHASTAIN:  -- the corporate governance, as 

         25           well as the budget matters, and certainly there's a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           number of issues that still need to be resolved.   

          2           Certain matters within the budget need to be 

          3           corrected.

          4                We don't know where the facility is, whether 

          5           it fits within desegregation plans, for example.   

          6           These are important components to be considered by 

          7           the district.  Whether this can be done for the 

          8           first day of school, which I believe is August 

          9           15th, is questionable.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But not out of the question, 

         11           just questionable.

         12                MS. CHASTAIN:  Extremely questionable.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  General, do you have any 

         14           questions on the budget?

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I've got a quick 

         16           question to the young lady there.  You used the 

         17           term, the names that "might."  That was your 

         18           phrase, might be on the board of directors; so you 

         19           acknowledge that that list is a might list.  It's 

         20           not the final list.

         21                MS. CHASTAIN:  It depends which list we're 

         22           talking about.  With respect to --

         23                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You used the term 

         24           "might."  Did you do that intentionally or 

         25           unintentionally?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MS. CHASTAIN:  I believe it was 

          2           unintentionally because when you look at --

          3                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  It was just a question.

          4                MS. CHASTAIN:  Yeah.  -- the filed articles of 

          5           incorporation, there is a specific list of 

          6           directors.

          7                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I understand, but you 

          8           used the term, "might."  I was just curious as to 

          9           why you used it.

         10                MS. CHASTAIN:  Anything else?

         11                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  On the budget, compared 

         12           to this -- this is a draft budget, and my question 

         13           really is, have you finalized the budget?  Dr. 

         14           Norman perhaps or whomever?

         15                DR. NORMAN:  We have a final budget.

         16                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Does it look different 

         17           than this?  You've got two budgets here.

         18                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So everybody 

         20           understands, you've got your start-up budget, which 

         21           is the $50,000 budget.

         22                DR. NORMAN:  It's somewhat different.  Let me 

         23           explain to you that you are asked to make a budget 

         24           out of a certain amount of money that's generated 

         25           by FTE; so you try to fit everything into that, but 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           that is not a final budget.

          2                There is always more money needed that you 

          3           will have to get that you will have to raise 

          4           yourself that will not be generated by FTE.  What I 

          5           was trying to do -- what we did, I got a CPA to do 

          6           this.

          7                What we were trying to do was give them a 

          8           budget, a tentative budget.  It does not say this 

          9           is a final budget.  It says a tentative budget.   

         10           That's what it reads.  On the other hand, why was 

         11           that budget and everything else approved and 

         12           printed in the Florida Times Union as being 

         13           approved when, in fact, it turned around and 

         14           changed?

         15                You see it was printed in the Florida Times 

         16           Union twice as being approved, and another thing I 

         17           would like to say about them informing me about the 

         18           articles of incorporation -- I wish Ms. Evelyn 

         19           Toots was here because she told me on the two calls 

         20           that I was supposedly to have received from Ms. 

         21           Reynolds.  

         22                I did receive a call from Ms. Reynolds on the 

         23           22nd, and the meeting was held on the 23rd.  She 

         24           told me that Ms. Reynolds was writing some articles 

         25           of incorporation that would be acceptable by the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           applicant and the school board.

          2                She was going to put some legal language in 

          3           there.  See, this is what Ms. Toots told me, and I 

          4           called Ms. Toots on two different occasions, and I 

          5           never received it.  She told me -- she said, I'll 

          6           get back to you.  She did get back to me.  She 

          7           said, I don't know.  Ms. Reynolds said that it's 

          8           not completed yet.

          9                They played games with me right up to the 

         10           22nd.  I received a call from Ms. Reynolds.  She 

         11           called and she asked me if I intended to get a 

         12           separate articles of incorporation for the 

         13           Jacksonville Learning Institute, and I told her, 

         14           yes.

         15                She said, well, I want to know in case the 

         16           board asks for it, I can tell them that you are 

         17           going to get them.  Okay.  So then I contacted that 

         18           very same day, on the 22nd, Mr. Lee Jones, who told 

         19           me -- he said all I have to do is to go over to 

         20           Tallahassee, and I will get it, and I will bring it 

         21           back.

         22                The night of the 23rd he did not show up; so I 

         23           did not have it then.  We have them now.  It was 

         24           allowable to date them back five days; so as of 

         25           February 23rd, the articles of incorporation are 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           there.

          2                The board of directors, the governance board 

          3           is in place, and we also had the same members with 

          4           the addition of two, and we dropped two members.   

          5           And I stated in the proposal that we would be 

          6           adding some additional ones, and some would be 

          7           deleted because of term limitations, and this is 

          8           what took place.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         10                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'm still asking about 

         11           the budget.  This was a proposed budget that was 

         12           submitted.

         13                DR. NORMAN:  Yes, tentative.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And I presume that you 

         15           are prepared to submit a final budget on the 14th 

         16           of July.

         17                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  My question is, how 

         19           does it compare to the proposed budget based on 

         20           some of the feedback that you've received from the 

         21           school board?  Is it the same as the one I'm 

         22           looking at right now as the proposed budget?

         23                DR. NORMAN:  No, it's not.

         24                (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)

         25                DR. NORMAN:  No, it's not.  We have some more 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           things that we added into the budget.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Expenses?  More expenses or 

          3           more revenue?

          4                DR. NORMAN:  No.  More revenue.  We have some 

          5           other things that we needed to add, and on one item 

          6           when they're talking about the rental of the 

          7           facility, the facility rental is even lower than 

          8           what we submitted in that budget because the 

          9           facility has to have some renovations done, and we 

         10           have people who will do the renovations.

         11                I'm not going to talk anymore because I'm 

         12           rattling on, but I could go on --

         13                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But you do have a final 

         14           budget --

         15                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         16                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- that does recognize 

         17           some of the comments from the school board?

         18                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You are prepared to 

         20           submit that on the 14th --

         21                DR. NORMAN:  I'm prepared.

         22                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- and you are prepared 

         23           to operate starting in September or late August?

         24                DR. NORMAN:  Yes, I am.

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You do have your 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           start-up budget, and you have the funds in place 

          2           for the start-up budget?

          3                DR. NORMAN:  I could not get the start-up 

          4           budget from the state until I got conditional 

          5           approval, but I do have some other moneys promised 

          6           to me by the corporation that would help me --

          7                (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)

          8                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So your $50,000 

          9           start-up budget is --

         10                DR. NORMAN:  $50,000 plus two $10,000 will be 

         11           $70,000.

         12                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Your start-up budget is 

         13           now $70,000?

         14                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.  They give you $50,000.   

         15           Then you can apply for two additional grants of 

         16           $10,000 a piece.  The minute I get the conditional 

         17           approval, then I can apply for that.

         18                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So your start-up budget 

         19           is not $50,000.  It's $70,000.

         20                DR. NORMAN:  It will be.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The good news is it's $70,000 

         22           revenue.

         23                DR. NORMAN:  Yes.

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's providing --

         25                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  The last one, it 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           didn't look like there was any hope of working it 

          2           out.  This one does seem like it.  There is some 

          3           hope of working it out, and legal counsel and the 

          4           board was missing, I think, the first go-round.

          5                I would recommend that we remand this back in 

          6           hopes that they can give it one more shot at trying 

          7           to approve this.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Do I hear a second?

          9                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any discussion?

         11                (No response.)

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Remember, what we're doing 

         13           here, ma'am, is we're remanding it back to the 

         14           school district for you to work out your issues.   

         15           They still have the right to reject you again, 

         16           although it would be disappointing if it 

         17           consistently happened after all the good things 

         18           they said about your proposal in February.

         19                Subject to the budget and governance 

         20           questions, which were what were brought up as 

         21           concerns, that's what would happen if we vote in 

         22           favor of remanding it back to the school district.   

         23           Any other discussion?

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  With the 

         25           recommendation of approval, as long as they take 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           care of the shortages.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They're going to have to take 

          3           care of the concerns of the school district which 

          4           is how the process works.  All in favor, say aye.

          5                (Affirmative response.)

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

          7                (No response.)

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motion passes.

          9                (Attorney General Butterworth exits room.)

         10                (The Department of Education Agenda is         

         11           continued in Volume 2 without omissions.)















                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                      CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER


          3     STATE OF FLORIDA:

          4     COUNTY OF LEON:

          5               I, NANCY P. VETTERICK, do hereby certify that 

          6     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

          7     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

          8     notes were thereafter translated under my supervision;   

          9     and the foregoing pages numbered 1 through 198 are a true 

         10     and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.

         11               I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

         12     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

         13     relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or 

         14     financially interested in the foregoing action.

         15               DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF JUNE, 2000.




         19                                   ___________________________
                                              NANCY P. VETTERICK
         20                                   100 SALEM COURT
                                              TALLAHASSEE, FL 32301
         21                                   (850) 878-2221




                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          2                       T H E   C A B I N E T
          3                  S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
                              STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
          6                     DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                    BOARD OF TRUSTEES
          7                     STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
          8                             VOLUME 2
                                 (PAGES 200 THROUGH 335)
                          The above agencies came to be heard before
         10     THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
                presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, The 
         11     Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, June 13, 2000, 
                commencing at approximately 9:10 a.m.
                                      Reported by:
                                   NANCY P. VETTERICK
         16                 Registered Professional Reporter
                                Certified Court Reporter
         17                     Notary Public in and for
                              the State of Florida at Large
                           ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
         22                          100 SALEM COURT
                               TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
         23                           850.878.2221

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1     APPEARANCES:
          2               Representing the Florida Cabinet:
          3               JEB BUSH
                          BOB CRAWFORD
          5               Commissioner of Agriculture
          6               BOB MILLIGAN
                          KATHERINE HARRIS
          8               Secretary of State
          9               BOB BUTTERWORTH
                          Attorney General
                          BILL NELSON
         11               Treasurer
         12               TOM GALLAGHER
                          Commissioner of Education
                                          * * *

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                             I N D E X
          2     ITEM                    ACTION                 PAGE
                (Presented by Wayne Pierson)
                4                       Remanded                231
          5     5                       Denied                  244
                6                       Withdrawn               244
          6     7                       Approved                245
                8                       Approved                246
          7     9                       Approved                254
                10                      Approved                246
          8     11                      Approved                253
                12                      Approved                324, 330,
          9                                                     331, 331
                13                      Deferred                332
         10     14                      Approved                332
                15                      Approved                332
         11     16                      Approved                333
                17                      Approved                333
         12     18                      Approved                333
                19                      Approved                334
         13     20                      Approved                334
                CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER                         335

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                (Continued from Volume 1 without omissions.)

          2                       P R O C E E D I N G S

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Onward.

          4                MR. PIERSON:  Item 4 is the Love for Learning 

          5           Academy Charter School versus Duval County School 

          6           Board.  For the Love for Learning Academy Charter 

          7           School is Dr. Carolyn Love.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Love, where are you?

          9                DR. LOVE:  I'm trying to get through.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.  You kind of got a 

         11           sense of where we're going with this stuff.

         12                DR. LOVE:  Yes.  Good afternoon, Governor Jeb 

         13           Bush and Cabinet Members.  Love for Learning, 

         14           Incorporation thanks you for this opportunity to 

         15           address the concerns of the issues of the denial of 

         16           our charter school application.

         17                As stated in the previous cases, the same 

         18           three generic questions of denial was sent to Love 

         19           for Learning, and as we began the review project in 

         20           November of '99, and we were actually denied on 

         21           February 23rd, 60 days after the allotted time.

         22                We exceeded the 60-day period.  There are only 

         23           two occasions that staff members from Duval County 

         24           contacted us concerning any additional information, 

         25           and when that request was given.  All of the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           information was given promptly.

          2                We are concerned about the unfair assumptions 

          3           that have been made concerning our governance 

          4           structure and our projected budgets for Love for 

          5           Learning.  We're very dismayed of the clarity 

          6           regarding the items not sought by Duval County 

          7           during the review period.

          8                And we're convinced that Love for Learning 

          9           Academy has a sound governance and management 

         10           structure that will enable us to provide a quality 

         11           educational opportunity for at-risk students in 

         12           Duval County.

         13                We ask today that you grant us the opportunity 

         14           to accomplish our mission.  When we look at the 

         15           governance board of Love for Learning, in no way 

         16           did Love for Learning intertwine with the 

         17           operations of a church, that permitting it to 

         18           operate as a public school would in any means 

         19           violate the state constitution, the Florida 

         20           Statutes, or the First Amendment of the U.S. 

         21           Constitution.

         22                As a faith-based initiative, working as a 

         23           collaborative partner in the community, Love for 

         24           Learning Academy, its governance board and its 

         25           operations was never intended to be intertwined 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           with the operations of Truth for Living Ministries.

          2                According to the Florida Statute 228.056, 

          3           charter school proposal 3, it states there clearly 

          4           that the charter school proposal for application 

          5           can be made by an individual, teachers, parents, 

          6           groups of individuals, municipality or a legal 

          7           entity organized under the law of this state.

          8                A group of four individuals from Truth for 

          9           Living Ministries, the founding initial board, 

         10           pooled their resources and their thoughts and their 

         11           vision together as a faith-based initiative to 

         12           partner with the community and the Duval County 

         13           School Board for a charter school program.

         14                We feel that Duval County School Board members 

         15           had a problem distinguishing between the original 

         16           founding board and then the development, and the 

         17           formation of the governance board, that will be 

         18           responsible for the governance of the charter 

         19           program.

         20                As one of the prerequisites that's been 

         21           previously stated in the proposal, that the 

         22           articles of incorporation as a nonprofit 

         23           organization be included, those documents were 

         24           included.  We included Love for Learning Academy as 

         25           a -- we documented it as a legal document for a new 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           separate and a distinct legal entity that would be 

          2           a charter school named, Love for Learning.

          3                The church, Truth for Living Ministries, had 

          4           no intentions of operating Love for Learning 

          5           Academy; so I want to make it very clear that the 

          6           founding board, the incorporators did indeed 

          7           consist of three of the persons who are employed by 

          8           Truth for Living Ministries, but they served as the 

          9           visionary.

         10                Myself, Dr. Carolyn Love, who will serve as 

         11           the academy's executive director, was fully aware 

         12           that my position with the academy would preclude me 

         13           from holding a position as a board of directors; so 

         14           based on my background and experience in education 

         15           for some 20-plus years, I served the community in 

         16           the private school sector, the public school 

         17           sector, district level assignment, as well as a 

         18           middle school and an elementary school principal 

         19           assignment.

         20                We've worked very close with the City of 

         21           Jacksonville in many areas serving as board members 

         22           for nonprofit boards, working in -- understanding 

         23           that we operate on a non-compensation status, and 

         24           we've worked and presently are working in the City 

         25           of Jacksonville working with Healthy Families 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Jacksonville since 1995.

          2                Our annual budget with that particular grant 

          3           organization is $4,000 -- $470,000 per year 

          4           covering five zip codes in Jacksonville.  We've 

          5           worked with the Adult and Family Literacy Program 

          6           since 1996.  Our annual budget is $40,000 there.

          7                We're collaborative partners with the Enable 

          8           Abstinence Program as a service provider.  We've 

          9           been doing that since 1996, and we also work with 

         10           the Teens Pregancy Program.  We're presently 

         11           receiving sources of funding from the Jacksonville 

         12           Children's Commission, the City of Jacksonville, 

         13           Ounce of Prevention Funds of Florida, and the 

         14           Jacksonville Community Foundation.

         15                We have behind us four annual governmental or 

         16           yellow book audits completed, and I stated these 

         17           areas of involvement so you would understand our 

         18           place, our potential and our purpose as a 

         19           faith-based initiative in the community.

         20                We look to work as a collaborative partner 

         21           with Duval County Schools.  I'd also like to point 

         22           out that the 2000 Duval County Charter School 

         23           application stated instances where final 

         24           documentation -- and we were led to believe that 

         25           the July 14th, 2000 date would serve as that date 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           where the final documentations, under conditional 

          2           approval, would give us time to pull together 

          3           anything or work on anything that the County was 

          4           requesting of us.

          5                As we worked previously, anything that was 

          6           requested of us, we provided, but as it progressed, 

          7           the later part of the application process in 

          8           February and definitely after the Impact situation, 

          9           Impact Charter School situation, it became an issue 

         10           with the board members, the founding incorporators 

         11           and then the governance board, which we were led to 

         12           believe, and following the stated outline of the 

         13           charter application, that those are two separate 

         14           entities.

         15                So in following with the previous 

         16           guidelines -- it also said that Duval County stated 

         17           that we lacked satisfactory evidence regarding 

         18           feasibility to operate a functioning school as set 

         19           forth by the proposed budget in the application.

         20                I'd like to address that by saying that the 

         21           proposal for Love for Learning Academy, all of the 

         22           areas of the proposal was addressed, and we would 

         23           like to reiterate that during the February 23rd 

         24           meeting, the first opportunity that we ever had to 

         25           address the school board members was during that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           time.

          2                And the question that was posed to us at that 

          3           time was a question about the rent of the 

          4           facilities that would be used for the charter 

          5           school.  It was explained that rent was included in 

          6           the budget under capital outlay, that category.

          7                Nothing further was asked concerning the rent, 

          8           but I'd like to clarify for your hearing and to 

          9           further explain that the capital outlay budget 

         10           included a full-service lease payment agreement 

         11           which includes the furniture, the equipment 

         12           leasing, the equipment maintenance, pest control, 

         13           waste removal, water, sewage, electrical, 

         14           telephones, security services, cafeteria setup, and 

         15           dispensary.

         16                This three-year proposed budget in our capital 

         17           outlay outlined how our funds would be allocated to 

         18           cover our rent at that time, and that's stated very 

         19           clearly in our proposed budget under the general 

         20           support section that capital outlay would cover 

         21           those things.

         22                When asked that at the board meeting, we 

         23           stated clearly that we had a full-service lease.   

         24           It was our understanding that regardless of where 

         25           any other charter school would be located, the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           facilities would have a cost that would accompany 

          2           it.

          3                Some moneys must be expended to either buy, 

          4           lease, rent or construct, renovate or simply bring 

          5           a structure up to building code standards.  In the 

          6           most cost-effective approach that was deemed 

          7           honorable by Love for Learning, was to lease space 

          8           in non-permanent modular buildings that could be 

          9           expanded or redesigned to fit the needs of our 

         10           growing population.

         11                (Attorney General Butterworth enters room.)

         12                DR. LOVE:  These dollars that we would save in 

         13           making this decision would be better used --

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Love, would you close it 

         15           down a little bit?  Are you close to the end here?

         16                DR. LOVE:  Sure.  I'm at the formal closing.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         18                DR. LOVE:  We would use that money that would 

         19           possibly go for rent, we would use that to enhance 

         20           our program.  Our mission remains the same.  Our 

         21           vision and purpose for Love for Learning Academy is 

         22           to provide a supportive and a stimulating 

         23           environment for students, whether at-risk and -- 

         24           from the various communities.

         25                As I close, our immediate goal that we're 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           asking is to build a foundation for future academic 

          2           success.  We believe that the excellence and 

          3           quality in education is possible regardless of the 

          4           demographic or social economic boundaries.

          5                Our mission is clear.  We look forward to 

          6           making a difference in our community by educating 

          7           our students through programs that are difficult in 

          8           the traditional class setting.  Thank you for the 

          9           opportunity to demonstrate our commitment to this 

         10           project.  Thank you very much.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.  Are you 

         12           ready to go on August 15th?

         13                DR. LOVE:  We could open in August.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You have the facility in 

         15           place?

         16                DR. LOVE:  We have facilities, yes, sir.

         17                MR. MUELLER:  This is Ernst Mueller again for 

         18           the School Board.  Governor and Members of the 

         19           Board, at the outset, I just want to address 

         20           briefly the process here so that I think we can -- 

         21           so that we can clarify what I perceive to be a 

         22           misunderstanding.

         23                When the board takes action on an application 

         24           originally, as it did on February 23rd in this 

         25           instance, it is the last crack that the board gets 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           at approving whether or not this applicant is going 

          2           to go forward as a charter school.

          3                Once they -- and the statute does not talk 

          4           about conditional approval.  It talks about 

          5           approving the application.  Once an application is 

          6           approved, the applicant has a right, a vested 

          7           right, to fight for its charter.

          8                What happens then afterwards is that the board 

          9           and charter applicant get together and negotiate a 

         10           contract or a charter, as it were, and then the 

         11           final charter goes back to the board for approval.   

         12           The point of that is it's the last time, the last 

         13           chance the board has to really know what they're 

         14           going to allow, who they're going to allow to get 

         15           into a charter is prior to that initial approval.

         16                And that is why in these cases -- and the 

         17           board's requirement in all cases --  they want to 

         18           know who are we dealing with, and that was the 

         19           reason for wanting the corporate vehicle, or 

         20           whatever the vehicle was going to be, that was 

         21           going to function.

         22                Now, with respect to the July 14th issue, I 

         23           think that is a bogus issue when the board, in 

         24           fact, asked for these documents prior to the 

         25           approval time because it wanted to know.  To come 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           in after the fact and after they've, in fact, 

          2           submitted articles of incorporation, and to say, 

          3           well, you should have allowed them to submit them 

          4           by July 14th, is kind if a moot issue when we dealt 

          5           with what they actually put in front of us.

          6                With respect to this particular school --

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can I show you this because 

          8           maybe this is a forged document or something?

          9                MR. MUELLER:  No.  I've got it in front of me.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is this the school application 

         11           for charter --

         12                MR. MUELLER:  Well, where it says, final 

         13           documentation to be submitted prior to the opening 

         14           of the charter school?

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, and the sentence before 

         16           that.  It's a little different.  May be granted 

         17           prior to getting the documents.  That's the point 

         18           I'm making.

         19                MR. MUELLER:  Well, and then it goes on and --

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So if you wanted to, you could 

         21           have approved the subject getting the documents.   

         22           You decided to do something different.  That's all 

         23           we're saying.  Isn't that right?  It's on your own 

         24           application.

         25                MR. MUELLER:  Well, I think that the board can 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           change the application process at any point in 

          2           time, but to -- you have a process in effect where 

          3           the staff asks for documents.  Documents are 

          4           submitted.

          5                Yes.  The board could on February 23rd have 

          6           waived the requirement and said, we'll let this 

          7           thing pass and try to get in before July 14th.   

          8           Yes, that was a possibility.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's on your own application.

         10                TREASURER NELSON:  If you're filling out the 

         11           application, you're going to be under the 

         12           impression by reading that that you don't have to 

         13           have the final documents till July 14th.  That's 

         14           the impression I'd sure get.

         15                MR. MUELLER:  Not when they have asked you for 

         16           those documents, and they have, in fact, submitted 

         17           them.

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I know it's been 

         19           asked and submitted, but it still says to me -- I 

         20           don't have to really have them finalized until July 

         21           14th.  I mean, you-all could change your 

         22           application if that's not what you wanted.

         23                MR. MUELLER:  It says, may be granted.  It 

         24           puts on the board, not on this board, but on the 

         25           Duval County School Board.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I know that, but 

          2           don't you think that's a little misleading to the 

          3           applicant?

          4                MR. MUELLER:  I don't think it was misleading 

          5           at the time.  I think it gave the board the 

          6           opportunity to waive certain things, and the board 

          7           didn't do it.

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I think it's the 

          9           other way around.  I think that -- I think it's the 

         10           other way around.  I think that the board can make 

         11           you put stuff in when they don't tell you you have 

         12           to have it, and use that for an excuse to deny, is 

         13           the way I look at it.

         14                MR. MUELLER:  I think the key to this was that 

         15           the board wanted to know who it was dealing with.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's fair.  Well, let's talk 

         17           about this specific application.

         18                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I have one more 

         19           question.  It sounded to me like the comments that 

         20           the school board members were making -- this is my 

         21           interpretation of it -- was that they felt that 

         22           they had no choice, that since the incorporation 

         23           had not been filed, they had no choice.  They had 

         24           to deny it.

         25                It's just my interpretation.  I wasn't there, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           but I do think this, as you just said, it's crucial 

          2           that you-all know who are on the governing board; 

          3           so that brings us to this next case.

          4                MR. MUELLER:  Right.  If you take a look at 

          5           this particular board that was set up for this Love 

          6           for Learning School, it consisted of four people.   

          7           It consisted of the pastor of the Truth for Living 

          8           Ministries, Dr. Love.  It consisted of his wife, 

          9           the associate pastor of the Truth for Living 

         10           Ministries.  It consisted of the church secretary, 

         11           who reported to the other two, and one other 

         12           person.

         13                Now then, if you take a look at the 

         14           administrative structure of this particular 

         15           operation that was submitted, you have the 

         16           executive director of the school, who is the 

         17           associate pastor, Dr. Love, who was up here 

         18           speaking, an employee of the church, not an 

         19           employee of the proposed charter school, and, of 

         20           course, accountable as an employee of the church 

         21           and the pastor, who is administratively her 

         22           superior, and you have the principal reporting to 

         23           Dr. Love.

         24                So on the board, you had a majority, 75 

         25           percent church employees dominated by the pastor, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           who is their administrative boss.  At the 

          2           administrative level, you had a principal reporting 

          3           to Dr. Love, who was a church employee and who 

          4           reported to the pastor.

          5                So you had a total control by church 

          6           employees, not school employees, and you add to 

          7           that the fact that this school was about to be 

          8           located on the premises of the church, and the 

          9           other side of this is the budget, the facility 

         10           budget for the three years in question.

         11                The first year was 252,000, the other -- the 

         12           next year, 345,000, the next year, 374,000, 

         13           totaling to very close to a million dollars, about 

         14           950 or something, over the three years.  This was 

         15           going to be used to build the structure on church 

         16           property.

         17                Now, it is my belief -- and I wrote in the 

         18           brief, that this arrangement really violates both 

         19           the Florida Law and federal constitutional law 

         20           relating to separation of the church and state.   

         21           First of all, the Florida Constitution just said 

         22           directly in section 3 that no revenue shall be 

         23           taken from the public treasury directly or 

         24           indirectly in aid of any church or sectarian 

         25           institution.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                I submit that this, by its very structure, 

          2           where church personnel controlled it from top to 

          3           bottom, had to be a sectarian institution unless 

          4           you wore blinders.  Florida Statute 228.0563 

          5           provides that a parochial school shall not be 

          6           eligible for charter school status.

          7                How is this charter and the structure they 

          8           gave us not a parochial school?  I do not 

          9           understand it.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There are church-sponsored 

         11           charter schools spawned by churches.  You know, 

         12           they're sponsored by similar kinds of structures.   

         13           Are all those unconstitutional?

         14                MR. MUELLER:  No.  No.  This could be fixed.   

         15           This could be fixed by providing a board that has a 

         16           non-pastor, nonemployee majority.  I mean this can 

         17           be fixed, but it wasn't fixed.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What would happen if there 

         19           were, in addition to that, if there was a reversion 

         20           clause in the title to the building that was being 

         21           built with public dollars, should the charter no 

         22           longer --

         23                MR. MUELLER:  Well, that --

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- would that be another 

         25           element of how you could fix it?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. MUELLER:  Well, that was a second problem, 

          2           and it was a separate problem, but it compounded 

          3           the issue.  The problem here was that these funds 

          4           were going to be used to build the facility on the 

          5           church property.  Now --

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The facility of the church, 

          7           but on church property, right?

          8                MR. MUELLER:  Well, the problem was that, you 

          9           know, if you had a reasonable rental pay on an 

         10           annual basis for this property, whatever the 

         11           reasonable rent for the building, you know, then 

         12           the thing -- you could say that, yes, they're 

         13           simply paying rent for a building located on the 

         14           church property to an institution that happens to 

         15           be a church, but that's not what you had here.

         16                You had a facility budget that said nothing 

         17           about rent, nothing about lease.  It just had a 

         18           block of money that was going to build this 

         19           facility on church property.  Now, they did file an 

         20           amendment to the original articles providing for a 

         21           reversion, but the case law is pretty clear.

         22                I can turn to the federal case law that when 

         23           you have property of value, that they're going 

         24           to -- that the church is going to end up with as a 

         25           result of receiving these funds, that it is 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           unconstitutional.

          2                They're basically -- other than the Florida 

          3           Statutes which I think are pretty direct -- there's 

          4           a case I discuss in the memorandum called Lemon 

          5           versus Kurtzman, which indicates that you cannot 

          6           have excessive entanglement between this church and 

          7           the school.

          8                (Commissioner Gallagher exits room.)

          9                Lemon versus Kurtzman was about a case 

         10           involving Rhode Island and Pennsylvania statutes, 

         11           which provided for assistance to private schools 

         12           including Catholic schools specifically, parochial 

         13           schools, and in that situation, what the Court 

         14           condemned was the fact that the government would 

         15           have to -- which was doling out the funds, and in 

         16           this instance, the school board would be the 

         17           government -- had to closely monitor the situation, 

         18           the books and everything else, in order to ensure 

         19           that they did not trespass the boundaries in 

         20           conducting the activities.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  When you denied this 

         22           application, did you include these explanations or 

         23           just the generic denial that the other three 

         24           applicants went through?

         25                MR. MUELLER:  Let me give a two-part answer.   

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           The entire discussion at the board meeting revolved 

          2           around this very issue.  Are they building a church 

          3           facility with public funds?  Who does Dr. Love, the 

          4           pastor, report to?  He reports to God, and there 

          5           was a ha-ha-ha-ha, and God is present here.

          6                But the entire discussion was about --

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We hope he's here.

          8                MR. MUELLER:  Well, yes, he was there, and we 

          9           hope he's here, too, but the entire issue revolved 

         10           around this very thing.  Now, the letter in 

         11           question had the same, as you say, generic 

         12           comments, and I agree it could have been more 

         13           specific, but I do think that squarely within 

         14           number 2, which talks about the governmental 

         15           structure, which is what we're talking about here, 

         16           there was notice between that and the context of 

         17           why the board voted as to what we are objecting to.   

         18           I just -- beyond --

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I think we've got a pretty 

         20           good understanding of the concerns of the school 

         21           district on this.  Is this -- similar question to 

         22           applicant number 2.  Is this resolvable if again, 

         23           the school district has a policy of embracing the 

         24           charter schools and wants to make sure that they're 

         25           done right, and all the things that have expressed?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                Is this resolvable by the time that you could 

          2           have the school start in mid-August?  The two 

          3           questions, I assume, are the separation from the 

          4           church of this institution, both structurally as 

          5           well as substantively, and the question of public 

          6           dollars going to a church facility.

          7                MR. MUELLER:  You know, there is nothing that 

          8           is not ultimately resolvable, and I don't think 

          9           you've ever had any application come before you 

         10           that wasn't ultimately resolvable one way or the 

         11           other, this one is no different.

         12                So, yes, I mean, it is resolvable, and these 

         13           two issues can be resolved by diversifying the 

         14           board on the one hand, creating a financing 

         15           structure which -- changing the administrative 

         16           reporting structure, the second thing; third thing, 

         17           changing the budgetary setup so that you have a 

         18           lease setup that is a reasonable annual lease 

         19           payment to the church for the facility rather than 

         20           just a lump sum which appears to build the 

         21           facilities.

         22                I do want to say that, you know, we have not 

         23           seen any flexibility from the other side on this.   

         24           I seriously doubt -- I mean, yes, it can be fixed.   

         25           I don't think it's going to be fixed so they can 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           start school in August.  That's my opinion.  I 

          2           don't think it'll get fixed that fast.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are there any other issues 

          4           that the school district has concerns about, 

          5           commitment to a core curriculum, the competency of 

          6           the leadership of the school, the budget issues, 

          7           again, operating budget?

          8                Are there any other issues out there?  This 

          9           budget looks a little bit better, I think, in terms 

         10           of its realistic amount of money they're probably 

         11           going to get through the FTE formula and the like.   

         12           Are there any other issues other than those two?

         13                MR. MUELLER:  Well, this -- these were the key 

         14           issues and were the reason for rejection; so that's 

         15           why we focused on them.  I think there are small 

         16           issues.  There are things that need to be resolved 

         17           which happens with all these schools in the charter 

         18           negotiation process.

         19                I don't believe the charter can be negotiated 

         20           overnight.  I think it's going to take 30 to 60 

         21           days to get that charter negotiated.  Thirty to 60 

         22           days down the road we're in August.  I don't think 

         23           you can start up a charter school.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  In 30 days, we're in July.

         25                MR. MUELLER:  Well, all right, whatever it is.  

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           I don't think it gets done this year.  I do think 

          2           it gets done if these people are persistent 

          3           because, as you said yourself, there is some 

          4           quality here, and these things can be fixed.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions or comments?

          6                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, Governor, it 

          7           does -- I think it's a wonderful proposal here, but 

          8           it's a church school the way it's proposed.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, let's let the applicant 

         10           comment on that because that's been --

         11                DR. LOVE:  Please.  Thank you.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Clearly we can't.  We could 

         13           not authorize or remand back to the school district 

         14           a church school.  That kind of does violate the law 

         15           of the land.

         16                DR. LOVE:  Thank you, Mr. Governor.  In 

         17           submitting this application, the purpose of 

         18           incorporating Love for Learning as a separate legal 

         19           entity, that was the purpose of separating it from 

         20           the church.

         21                The church, I don't feel, should be punished 

         22           for having a vision for the community as a 

         23           faith-based collaborative partnership.  Once Love 

         24           for Learning is approved, their application for the 

         25           proposal to the school board, Truth for Living 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           backs off.

          2                They've donated 3 to 4 acres for the school to 

          3           reside on.  The school will not be something that 

          4           the state or the government builds for the church.   

          5           It's modular buildings that are relocatable.  As 

          6           soon as the project is over --

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would the land be owned by the 

          8           incorporated school entity or by the church?

          9                DR. LOVE:  The land is owned by the church 

         10           that's being donated to the school.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, if it's donated, would 

         12           it be transferred as well?

         13                DR. LOVE:  That's possible.  We've never been 

         14           asked that before, but that's possible.  It could 

         15           be worked out.  There's 17 and a half acres there, 

         16           and 3 to 4 acres would be the part that's allocated 

         17           for the school.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How about your curriculum?

         19                (Commissioner Gallagher enters room.)

         20                DR. LOVE:  The curriculum, we're using the 

         21           Florida Sunshine curriculum.  Our curriculum will 

         22           be based solely on what Duval County is doing, but 

         23           then as an innovative approach for our charter 

         24           school, we've incorporated fine arts, physical 

         25           fitness, music and technology as our innovative 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           approach to the at-risk student.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Love, this may sound a 

          3           little bit crazy, but if the spirit moves a 

          4           teacher, would they start talking about the Holy 

          5           Ghost in the classroom?

          6                DR. LOVE:  We have a very trained, 

          7           professional and competent staff.  We're able to 

          8           control that, and we've not hired any staff.  We've 

          9           not hired a principal, as stated earlier, but in 

         10           our selection process, we'll be very mindful --

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there anything in your 

         12           application that would give someone concern other 

         13           than the colocation of the school on a church 

         14           facility?  Any other legitimate concern of the fact 

         15           that sponsors are the leaders of the church that --

         16                DR. LOVE:  Well, let me --

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- it would be religious?

         18                DR. LOVE:  Let me address that, Governor.  The 

         19           initial founding board, the incorporators, are 

         20           Truth for Living Ministries staff members.  The 

         21           governance board of the school has been expanded.   

         22           That's a separate entity.

         23                The application asks for two separate 

         24           entities, and I've stated in my approach earlier 

         25           that I believe that's the point of confusion with 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the school board, that they did not understand the 

          2           process of this application in asking for two 

          3           different things.

          4                The founding board is the persons who had the 

          5           vision to initiate this.  Then the governance board 

          6           will operate the day-to-day governance and the 

          7           overseeing of the schools and the school matters, 

          8           and two different boards.

          9                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But who chooses the 

         10           governance board?

         11                DR. LOVE:  The governance board was selected 

         12           by the initial incorporators.  One of the things 

         13           that they asked for in the school application is 

         14           how do you propose to keep the continuity of the 

         15           vision, the initial vision, going?

         16                You've got to have someone with a vision, and 

         17           then you've got to have someone to work the vision; 

         18           so having persons who are part of the vision on the 

         19           board is our means for keeping the continuity of 

         20           the vision.

         21                The board, it's a very extensive board, not 

         22           just church members.  Now, the assumption from the 

         23           school board to state that it's only church 

         24           members, that is not our governance board.  Our 

         25           governance board consists of 11 -- 12 persons, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           varied backgrounds and community involvement.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other questions?

          3                (No response.)

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Anybody like to make a motion 

          5           or a comment?

          6                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Doctor, are all 

          7           the board members members of the church?

          8                DR. LOVE:  No, sir.

          9                MR. MUELLER:  May I just make one comment?

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, sir.

         11                MR. MUELLER:  She's not talking about the 

         12           board that was presented to the board on February 

         13           23rd.  She's talking about another board that 

         14           arrived here February 23rd or thereabouts, and the 

         15           board never saw when it was taking its action; so 

         16           there's 11 or 12 people out there on this new group 

         17           that we really don't know anything about.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What I don't understand is 

         19           this, Duval County has charter schools.  They had 

         20           one bad one, a really bad one, a doozy of a bad one 

         21           in terms of loss of money and the embarrassment and 

         22           the like, but for the sake of and your support of 

         23           charter schools, why wouldn't you accept the good 

         24           intentions of these applicants as it relates to 

         25           making modifications as per your request.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                I mean, I don't understand why February 23rd 

          2           comes, they make their -- they modify their 

          3           governance structure to accommodate your concerns, 

          4           which were legitimate, and we're here in June and 

          5           you're all insisting, well, because by February 

          6           23rd, this stuff wasn't done, we've rejected it, 

          7           and we keep rejecting it.

          8                MR. MUELLER:  Well, I think where we are is 

          9           that the board on February 23rd has no idea what's 

         10           coming down the pike in the future.  It has to act 

         11           on what it has, and it's -- in hindsight, to say, 

         12           well, two weeks later this thing arrived in the 

         13           mail with 10 new board members, and we don't know 

         14           who those people are.

         15                We've got to begin investigating them.  At 

         16           that point, the process, however, was over.

         17                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's the problem, 

         18           the process in your mind was over, and I think that 

         19           what we expect is that the people are allowed to -- 

         20           this a new -- this is a new business starting.  New 

         21           businesses don't start with 100 percent, everything 

         22           all done, here it is, and turn and click your 

         23           fingers, and it's gone.

         24                I mean, there's an evolution here, and from 

         25           the application, it would appear to anybody reading 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           it that it's part of the evolution.  They put in 

          2           their application, and you work with them, and by 

          3           the 23rd of July, before they can open up, all the 

          4           final things are going to be done, and the contract 

          5           can be signed.

          6                What the school board basically did is on 

          7           February -- it appears to me -- on February 23rd, 

          8           freaked out and said, okay, we're not going to do 

          9           any of these because there's a whole bunch of stuff 

         10           we don't know about.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Did the superintendent approve 

         12           this or recommended approval?  I'm sorry.

         13                DR. LOVE:  Yes.

         14                MR. MUELLER:  Yes, he did.  Yes.

         15                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Governor, we've got 

         16           one more to go; so I'm going to move that we send 

         17           this one back to be renegotiated with the school 

         18           board also.

         19                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a second.  

         21           All in -- any other discussion?

         22                (No response.)

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All in favor say aye.

         24                (Affirmative response.)

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                (No response.)

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Passes.  It's remanded back to 

          3           the school district for further negotiation.  We 

          4           can't approve the charter.  These are -- it's the 

          5           responsibility of the school district to do that.   

          6           Thank you-all very much for coming, and I 

          7           appreciate -- one more, I know.

          8                We're three-quarters of the way through.  I 

          9           want to thank the Duval County School District for 

         10           their patience on this.        

         11                MR. PIERSON:  For the record, out of the 

         12           statute, the state board shall remand the 

         13           application to the district school board with its 

         14           written recommendation that the district's board 

         15           approve or deny the application consistent with the 

         16           State Board's decision.

         17                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We recommend that 

         18           they work with the newly submitted materials and 

         19           other materials that they need in order to approve 

         20           the charter.  Am I correct?

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's right.  In good faith, 

         22           it will be approved, or it won't.  Charters need to 

         23           work in good faith so the process works.  If not 

         24           we're going to have to go to the Legislature and --

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We'll start having to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           do charters.  That's where we really don't want to 

          2           be.  That's where it's going to end up.  I'm not 

          3           looking forward to that.

          4                MR. PIERSON:  Item 5 is Westside Academy 

          5           Charter School versus Duval County School Board.   

          6           Sharon Bell representing Westside Academy Charter 

          7           School.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

          9                MS. BELL:  First, I would like to say thank 

         10           you for another opportunity to represent Westside 

         11           Academy Charter School.  To the Governor, Cabinet, 

         12           Cabinet aides, and all representatives of the 

         13           Department of Education, on behalf of Westside 

         14           Academy Charter School, we, the founding board and 

         15           board of directors, has been dedicated and 

         16           committed toward developing a proposal that would 

         17           enhance educational opportunities for students of 

         18           Duval County School System.

         19                At Westside Academy, our goal will be to 

         20           continue working toward a future for all students 

         21           to become productive and appreciative in the world 

         22           in which we live.  As I stand here before you 

         23           today, I can honestly say Duval County has not 

         24           given Westside Academy a fair and equal 

         25           opportunity.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                In our proposal, we clearly stated the 

          2           principal and the vice principal would oversee the 

          3           management operations of the school.  As we closely 

          4           review our charter application, the application 

          5           stated the articles of incorporation would not be 

          6           due until July 14th, 2000.

          7                Westside Academy are planning to comply by 

          8           this date.  On November 15th, 1999, Westside 

          9           Academy submitted a timely application.  After our 

         10           presentation, the school board promised to notify 

         11           us within 10 days.

         12                We never received notification.  Instead I 

         13           received a phone call at home around six o'clock 

         14           p.m. telling me to meet with Ms. Toots, who is the 

         15           coordinator of charter schools of Duval County, to 

         16           receive by notification whether I would be approved 

         17           or denied.

         18                Instead I received a letter with 15 amendments 

         19           to do to pass back in to her the very next day, 

         20           which would have been December 21st.  I thought 

         21           that was entirely unfair.  Westside Academy was 

         22           recommended by the review committee and the 

         23           superintendent of schools.

         24                On February 23rd, the school board denied our 

         25           application for approval.  The question that comes 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           to my mind today, how can we gain approval from the 

          2           superintendent and gain approval from the review 

          3           committee and not gain approval from our local 

          4           school board?

          5                Something is wrong with our school system.   

          6           Westside Academy also submitted a proposed budget 

          7           to the Duval County School System on November 15th, 

          8           1999.  After a careful review by the coordinator 

          9           and the review committee, our budget met the 

         10           criteria for approval.

         11                No one -- let me emphasize.  No one ever, ever 

         12           questioned the budget until the night of February 

         13           23rd, 1999 (sic), the night the school board denied 

         14           our application.  Again, the charter application 

         15           states that the updated budget would not be due 

         16           until July 14th, 2000.

         17                On May 16th, 2000, I attended the school board 

         18           meeting.  I sat in the audience, and I listened to 

         19           the school board members slander prospective 

         20           charter schools.  One board member said we want 

         21           quality people.

         22                When I heard the remark, I knew all of us were 

         23           victims of an unjust system.  Each perspective 

         24           applicant that is present here today comes from a 

         25           well educated family who can bring a wealth of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           knowledge to our school system.

          2                Some has been recognized by the former Mayor 

          3           of the City of Jacksonville for outstanding 

          4           community service.  We are a great body of people.   

          5           As I leave here today, I want Duval County School 

          6           System to know that Westside Academy Charter School 

          7           stood the test.

          8                We overcame obstacles, an we have faced many 

          9           challenges.  We fought a great fight.  Now, we are 

         10           asking the Governor, the Cabinet, and 

         11           representatives of the Department of Education to 

         12           give us a fair and equal opportunity to pursue our 

         13           future.

         14                Westside Academy has worked countless hours, 

         15           weeks, months and years on our proposal.  Our 

         16           future plan and dream would be to one day be able 

         17           to open doors for students who deserve a bright 

         18           future and that would exemplify high academic 

         19           standards and expectations.

         20                Westside Academy Charter School can make a 

         21           difference in the lives of students, parents and 

         22           our community.  For the record, I would like to 

         23           speak on the budget.  In my proposed budget, I 

         24           indicated zero for our facility.

         25                The reason I indicated zero is because our 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           facility has been donated by St. Peters Episcopal 

          2           Church.  They will not be charging us a fee.  They 

          3           will also grant moneys from their church to help 

          4           with Westside Academy.

          5                I'm not sure of what the grant will allocate 

          6           for our budget, but I will submit that to the 

          7           school board at a later date.  At this time, I may 

          8           entertain any questions that you may have.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We may -- we'll ask the school 

         10           district to speak, and then standby.

         11                MS. CHASTAIN:  Karen Chastain with the Office 

         12           of General Counsel representing the district.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome back.

         14                MS. CHASTAIN:  Thank you.  First, I'd like to 

         15           respond to the fairness issue just as a global 

         16           comment.  The district took extreme efforts to 

         17           permit applicants, who needed to remediate and 

         18           correct their application, numerous opportunities 

         19           to amend and resubmit.

         20                This particular applicant, after the initial 

         21           submission, had a lengthy list of deficiencies that 

         22           required correction, specifically including 

         23           corporate governance issues and the lack of 

         24           corporate documents.

         25                This applicant resubmitted on two occasions 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           before it received the staff approval, if you will, 

          2           before it went to the board.  That being said, 

          3           there is absolutely no reason why each board member 

          4           can't review the application, can't review the 

          5           submissions and make it's own determination, within 

          6           the four corners of the application, as to whether 

          7           the proposal could be conditionally approved to go 

          8           forward with charter school negotiations.

          9                There were very serious concerns regarding 

         10           this proposal.  One concern, obviously, is the 

         11           corporate governance and the identity and 

         12           qualifications of the persons who form the 

         13           corporation which I'll outline in a few moments.

         14                There were even more serious concerns with 

         15           respect to the budget and the financial feasibility 

         16           of this applicant being able to operate a 

         17           functioning charter school.

         18                A third concern, in the context of this 

         19           appeal, is that it's clear that the record in this 

         20           proceeding is to consist of the application, as was 

         21           submitted, together with the transcript and the 

         22           arguments from each party.

         23                In this case, however, the applicant has 

         24           inserted and substituted pages in its articles of 

         25           incorporation that were not brought before the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           board and has made them appear as if that was their 

          2           initial submittal to the board when, in fact, that 

          3           was not the case.

          4                This lack of candor is viewed very seriously 

          5           by the district, and I would imagine that it would 

          6           be in any proceeding.  With respect to the 

          7           corporate governance issues, the initial 

          8           application, the text of it, contradicts the 

          9           articles of incorporation that were filed with the 

         10           Secretary of State and submitted with that 

         11           application.

         12                So immediately you have an inconsistency that 

         13           requires further explanation.  For some reason, 

         14           which has not been explained, in an amendment to 

         15           the application, the applicant submitted yet 

         16           another set of substantively different articles of 

         17           incorporation, which were not filed, and again, the 

         18           text of the amendment created yet a fourth 

         19           standard, if you will, as to how this corporation 

         20           would be governed and operated and who was in 

         21           charge, who are they, and who was in control.

         22                By the time we got to the February 23rd 

         23           hearing, it was absolutely unintelligible how this 

         24           corporation would be operated, what were the rules, 

         25           who was in charge, what are their qualifications?   

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           It was a seriously moving target.

          2                With respect to the budget, when one starts a 

          3           new business, it is important to be liberal on 

          4           projecting expenses and conservative on projecting 

          5           income.  This application is neither.  Almost 35 

          6           percent of the projected revenue, 35 percent, would 

          7           be obtained from private donations or grants, the 

          8           sources of which were unsubstantiated and 

          9           speculative, and therefore unverifiable by the 

         10           district.

         11                This is worse than Greater Jacksonville, the 

         12           first of the charter school appeals, which this 

         13           board recommended denial.  As an example of this, 

         14           during the February 23rd hearing, the applicant 

         15           apparently stated that one of the sources of 

         16           private funding, if you will, would be a MasterCard 

         17           line of credit.

         18                I would submit to you that this is not the 

         19           basis upon which to operate a charter school.  With 

         20           respect to expenses --

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They stated that at the 

         22           hearing?

         23                MS. CHASTAIN:  Yes.  It's in the record, and 

         24           we've included it, our transcript, of the 

         25           proceedings and our reply.  With respect to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           expenses, the salary line item was miscalculated 

          2           and extremely low, such that when you looked at the 

          3           student/teacher ratio that the applicant stated 

          4           would be in its charter school, and you calculated 

          5           what the salaries of the teachers would be, you're 

          6           at approximately $17,500 salary.

          7                That's about $9,000 below market within Duval 

          8           County for a new teacher.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How many students were 

         10           anticipated in the first year?

         11                MS. BELL:  Sixty.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sixty?

         13                MS. BELL:  Sixty to 100 students.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But the budget was based on 

         15           60?

         16                MS. BELL:  When we did our amendments, we had 

         17           to go back and do a correction, and so I put in 100 

         18           students for that second amendment; so the total 

         19           would have been 100 students to start.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So your total budget of 

         21           $376,000 is based on 100 students?

         22                MS. BELL:  That's based on the proposed 

         23           budget, and I told them, when I presented our 

         24           presentation, that this is only a proposed budget.   

         25           These are not our final documents on figures to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           start up the charter school.

          2                I said, I will submit to you a final budget.   

          3           I did state that clearly on November 15th.  I said, 

          4           this is not our final budget.  I will submit to you 

          5           on July 14th.

          6                MS. CHASTAIN:  With respect to the application 

          7           and the representations that were made in the 

          8           application to the district on February 23rd, the 

          9           budget that was supplied with that, whether it was 

         10           a draft budget or tentative, there's an extreme 

         11           inconsistency an a disconnect as to whether this 

         12           school could be financially feasible.

         13                You have problems, as I mentioned, apparently 

         14           with teacher salaries.  Revenue also included a 

         15           line item of $12,500, in addition to the 

         16           unverifiable private grants and donations and 

         17           MasterCard line of credit, which actually would be 

         18           fees for an after-school program, and really 

         19           shouldn't have been included as revenue for the 

         20           operation of the school and should have been 

         21           stand-alone.

         22                This becomes a slippery slope in that there 

         23           are numerous problems with the projections of 

         24           revenue, numerous problems with the projections of 

         25           expenses, and with respect to the facilities being 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           at line item zero, this was really unverified.

          2                At the time of the hearing on February 23rd, 

          3           there was a statement that St. Peters Episcopal 

          4           Church would donate a site; however, that was 

          5           qualified, and this is an extreme qualification 

          6           with respect to the parties entering into an 

          7           appropriate lease.

          8                Just because a site is donated doesn't mean 

          9           that the landlord -- and this would be very 

         10           untypical of a landlord -- would agree to pay for 

         11           maintenance of the facilities, utilities and so on 

         12           and so forth, and the budget contains a line item 

         13           of zero for those expenses as well, which certainly 

         14           are expenses that should be considered.

         15                There's no line item -- getting into the more 

         16           minutiae, there's no line item in the budget to 

         17           hire a CPA, and certainly they're required to 

         18           conduct an annual audit to meet the state statutes.   

         19           The district's administrative fee was miscalculated 

         20           just within the four corners of the budget.

         21                Really, in summary, there were so many 

         22           problems with this budget that as far as 

         23           overstating income and understating expenses -- 

         24           you're really going in the wrong direction there 

         25           with respect to reconciling the balance sheet and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the revenues -- that to enter into contract 

          2           negotiations really, at this phase, would be an 

          3           exercise in futility.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.  Any questions?

          5                (No response.)

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would you like to respond to 

          7           any of the comments made?

          8                MS. BELL:  In our proposal, we did state that 

          9           Westside Academy Charter School would hire a 

         10           full-time certified public account, and that's 

         11           stated in our proposal.  We're not trying to start 

         12           a school on our own.

         13                What we want to do is we want to work with 

         14           Duval County School District.  We wanted them to 

         15           really work with us so that we can gain an approval 

         16           within the next year.  We're not trying to open 

         17           this coming school year, but we are planning to 

         18           open within a year.

         19                We would like Duval County to give us that 

         20           support and to work with us so that we can be able 

         21           to open doors for students who really need our help 

         22           and who are in great need.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Questions?

         24                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, I'd just 

         25           like to say that the fact that they're not planning 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           on opening this year, that there are some -- 

          2           obviously some areas that need a lot of work here; 

          3           so I move that, at this time, we deny the appeal.

          4                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a second.  Any 

          6           discussion?

          7                (No response.)

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All in favor of denying the 

          9           appeal say aye.

         10                (Affirmative response.)

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         12                (No response.)

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They do have time to 

         14           resubmit an application for this coming school year 

         15           to get it through, and we urge you to work with the 

         16           district.  If you'd like help from the Department 

         17           of Education, we'll be glad to help you.

         18                MS. BELL:  Okay.  Thank you.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much for 

         20           coming.  Appreciate everybody's patience on this 

         21           subject.  Wayne, what else have we got going?

         22                MR. PIERSON:  Item 6 is another charter school 

         23           appeal which was withdrawn by the applicant.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, we'd like to hear that 

         25           one.   Item 7 is an amendment Rule 6A-1.012, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Purchasing Policies.  It basically gives school 

          2           boards the authority to use the same rules that the 

          3           state agencies use.

          4                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

          5                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Second.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          7           objection, it's approved.

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Your Honor, Items 8 

          9           through 12 in this agenda all deal with various 

         10           components of sections to secure high quality 

         11           teachers in Florida schools.  Item 8 and 10 address 

         12           relatively minor issues related to the 

         13           certification exams, one for Spanish and the other 

         14           for educational leadership.

         15                Item 9 proposes an important change in the 

         16           schools' social workers and also alters some 

         17           increased flexibility for professional preparation.   

         18           Items 11 and 12, however, are of great 

         19           significance.  They are the focus of our work 

         20           today; so that we may address these rules, at this 

         21           time, I'd like to address Items 8 and 10.

         22                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Are you making a 

         23           motion?

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I move Items 8 and 

         25           10.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I'll second it.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          3           objection, it's approved.

          4                Before we begin on this work, and I apologize, 

          5           but I think maybe the court reporter needs about a 

          6           five-minute break.  I admire your -- not bad.  Take 

          7           as long as you want.

          8                (Brief recess.)

          9                (Secretary Harris and Commissioner Crawford 

         10           not present at this time.)

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We've got approvals for Items 

         12           8 and 10.

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Governor, again thank 

         14           you.  Item 11 presents a great challenge.  Florida, 

         15           as you know, needs teachers who are completely 

         16           competent in every way.  They must be generally 

         17           literate.  They must have a firm current command of 

         18           their content area.

         19                They must know how to effectively teach their 

         20           students; however, our state cannot be rigid in its 

         21           approach to attracting good teachers.  Since we 

         22           annually need more teachers than we can graduate 

         23           from our own programs, we have to have a 

         24           multifaceted system for the the development of our 

         25           instructional workers.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                Therefore, we have various routes by which 

          2           respective teachers may become certified.  This can 

          3           lead to some confusion.  The preferred route to 

          4           full certification is through the completion of an 

          5           approved teacher preparation program.

          6                We'll be talking about this during Item 12; 

          7           however we have other ways for good teacher 

          8           candidates to access our system, and one of these 

          9           is highlighted in Item 11.  Here you will find a 

         10           very long list of rules that talk about the 

         11           essential content requirements for people who have 

         12           a degree, but not through the education program.

         13                (Commissioner Crawford enters room.)

         14                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  These rules exist to 

         15           specify to people what they must have to earn a 

         16           temporary certificate in their field.  In most 

         17           cases, you will find that they can either hold a 

         18           degree in the subject, or they can have 30 hours in 

         19           a range of areas within the subject.

         20                It's important to note that people who meet 

         21           these requirements must continue to work towards 

         22           licensure.  They have to take additional courses 

         23           that are programs in education.  They must be 

         24           regularly monitored by administrators in their 

         25           school to ensure that they can demonstrate all 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           appropriate competencies.

          2                They also have to pass all certification 

          3           tests.  These additional requirements generally 

          4           take two to three years to complete.  We are 

          5           proposing changes to these rules to allow for 

          6           greater flexibility while maintaining the high 

          7           standards.

          8                This was suggested in the A-Plus legislation 

          9           passed last June.  The Department undertook a 

         10           comprehensive study to assist in this approach and 

         11           is pleased to present these rule revisions to you 

         12           today.

         13                Do we have a speaker?

         14                MR. PIERSON:  We have two speakers.

         15                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Pamela Carroll.

         16                MR. PIERSON:  Pamela Carroll, Florida Council 

         17           of Teachers of English and Audrey Huggins from the 

         18           Department.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon.

         20                MS. CARROLL:  Hi.  My name is Pamela Carroll.  

         21           I'm here representing the English Ed program at 

         22           FSU, also the English Ed programs at University of 

         23           South Florida, at Florida International University, 

         24           at University of Central Florida, and Florida Gulf 

         25           Coast College.  We've all been talking a lot 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           recently.

          2                The rules that I would ask for you to 

          3           reconsider are Rules 4.0161 and 4.0162 which are 

          4           related to the preparation of teachers of English 

          5           and language arts at the middle-school and the 

          6           high-school levels.

          7                Specifically I would really sincerely ask you 

          8           to think about keeping adolescent literature as a 

          9           requirement for perspective teachers of English and 

         10           language arts.  Research has shown since the early 

         11           '80s that teachers who do not take course work in 

         12           adolescent literature are not likely to bring young 

         13           adult books into their classrooms.

         14                That means that students don't get their hands 

         15           on those young adult books in a context in which 

         16           they're taught, and that then becomes a disservice 

         17           to the students because these are the books that 

         18           really do have the potential for opening doors 

         19           towards critical literacy or being able to make 

         20           sense of their world for adolescent students.

         21                The books are characterized by characters who 

         22           are adolescents, by issues that appeal to 

         23           adolescents and issues that have meaning to them, 

         24           everything from relationships with their families, 

         25           to sexuality, to drugs and alcohol, to athletics, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           issues that are part of their world, and books that 

          2           allow them, in a school context, to talk about 

          3           their world to explore it, to begin to make sense 

          4           of them in the sense of critical literacy.

          5                So I would really urge you to consider keeping 

          6           adolescent literature as a part of the preparation 

          7           and certification requirement for teachers in 

          8           middle and secondary English classes, so that the 

          9           teachers will then take those books to their 

         10           students.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can I discuss something for a 

         12           second?

         13                MS. CARROLL:  Yes.  I'm sorry.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The sexuality, explain that to 

         15           me again.

         16                MS. CARROLL:  Well, in young adult literature, 

         17           because they feature protagonists who are kids, 12 

         18           years old, 14, 16 years old, they very frequently 

         19           portray the parts of life that kids are dealing 

         20           with.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What grade, when you say 

         22           adolescent, what does that mean?

         23                MS. CARROLL:  You might begin -- some people 

         24           would define early adolescent as early as 10 or 11 

         25           years old and go up to about 18.  The common frame 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           of reference is that we --

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Middle and high schools?

          3                MS. CARROLL:  Yes.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

          5                MS. CARROLL:  Just to help your acquaintance 

          6           with young adult or adolescent literature -- 

          7           because a lot of us didn't have this kind of 

          8           literature when we went to school -- I brought a 

          9           copy of a journal in adolescent literature 

         10           sponsored by the National Council of Teachers of 

         11           English which I happened to edit it at FSU for the 

         12           National Council of Teachers of English.

         13                It's the only one of its kind nationally that 

         14           focuses specifically on adolescent literature, so I 

         15           will leave you copies.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         17                MS. CARROLL:  Thank you.

         18                MS. HUGGINS:  Governor, Commissioner, Members, 

         19           good afternoon.  I'm Audrey Huggins, Bureau Chief 

         20           of Educators Certification, Department of 

         21           Education.  We are in the process of realigning all 

         22           of our laws, rules and procedures to match the 

         23           A-Plus plan.

         24                Of course, you know one of our charges is to 

         25           simplify the certification process while 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           maintaining quality.  We have listened to the 

          2           districts, and we are supposed to be sensitive to 

          3           the districts in recruiting teachers.

          4                The plan that is in question here today -- and 

          5           I heard you comment earlier -- Governor, Plan B -- 

          6           yes, this is plan B -- this is only addressing 

          7           those people who have not completed a teacher 

          8           education program.  They do not have majors in the 

          9           subject, and we're doing a very careful 

         10           course-by-course analysis.

         11                What we have seen over the years, and the 

         12           districts have seen in recruiting teachers, are 

         13           people who have very strong backgrounds in a 

         14           content area, we are denying certification, cutting 

         15           them out of the teaching field, because they do not 

         16           have one specific-type course.

         17                What we're trying to do here is to keep the 

         18           quality, keep the hours.  Yes, we did delete a 

         19           precise course in adolescent literature.  We do 

         20           have literature, nine hours at the middle grades, 

         21           and I think it's 15 hours at the secondary level.

         22                This does not prohibit teachers from using 

         23           adolescent literature.  I used to teach English.  I 

         24           understand the importance.  I don't know that it 

         25           warrants eliminating people from the field of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           teaching because they do not have seat time of 

          2           three hours in a college course in adolescent 

          3           literature.

          4                I would certainly encourage you to consider 

          5           our recommendation.  Thank you.  Any questions?

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions?

          7                (No response.)

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Is there another 

          9           speaker?

         10                MR. PIERSON:  No.  We're not on Item 9 now.   

         11           She was speaking on Item 11.  We skipped Item 9 and 

         12           came back to it.

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm sorry.  Well, 

         14           I'll do that next.  Let's move Item 11.

         15                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Any 

         17           discussion?

         18                (No response.)

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         20           objection, it's approved.  Item what number now?

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'd like to go back 

         22           and do 9 'cause it goes after -- it's the one that 

         23           gets rid of unnecessary requirements for school 

         24           social workers.

         25                MR. PIERSON:  Item 9 is an amendment to Rule 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           6A-4.006, General and Professional Preparation.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

          3                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any discussion?  Moved and 

          5           seconded.  Without objection, it's approved.

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Next, finally, we 

          7           have, as regards to teacher quality, I present to 

          8           you Item Number 12.  This rule is of particular 

          9           interest to me as it significantly increases the 

         10           requirements for new teachers, and we must have 

         11           this.

         12                Everywhere I go, people talk about the need 

         13           for better prepared teachers.  It's a shame, but 

         14           there's a common perception that today's standards 

         15           are simply not rigorous enough.  We must remember 

         16           the graduates of approved teacher preparation 

         17           programs, and we have 29 colleges and universities 

         18           in Florida that have them -- these graduates are 

         19           entitled to a professional level certificate.

         20                They take no more training.  They're supposed 

         21           to be fully skilled to the point of graduation -- 

         22           at the point of the graduation.  Therefore, their 

         23           program of study must be a challenging one.   

         24           Commensurate with the 1999 legislation, I appointed 

         25           a committee to review the current program and to 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           make recommendations for its improvement.

          2                The committee was compromised of university 

          3           and community college presidents, deans of colleges 

          4           of education, district superintendents, 

          5           high-performing teachers, principals, university 

          6           professors and business representatives.

          7                You have each been provided a copy of their 

          8           very comprehensive report.  Here to the present, to 

          9           present the committee findings, we have a couple 

         10           that will speak, and I think I'm going to have 

         11           Superintendent Kelly -- are you going to start?   

         12           How are we doing that?  -- who was Superintendent.   

         13           Pete Kelly was on the teacher prep committee, and 

         14           he's superintendent of Citrus County.  He can give 

         15           you an overview.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, sir.

         17                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  Thank you.  Governor 

         18           Bush and Members of the Cabinet -- what was that?

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  After you sat through our 

         20           charter school application process, do you ever 

         21           want to have one appealed to the Cabinet?

         22                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  Well, it's like this, 

         23           I'm supposed to be at a school board meeting in 

         24           Citrus County right now; so I've served my day, I 

         25           guess, it is already.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, you have.

          2                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  But it is a pleasure to 

          3           be here.  I'm Pete Kelly, Superintendent of Citrus 

          4           County Schools, and I would like to thank 

          5           Commissioner Gallagher for appointing me to this 

          6           committee and serving along with three other fellow 

          7           superintendents.

          8                This committee was also composed of teachers, 

          9           principals and representatives from the college of 

         10           education throughout the state.  The meetings were 

         11           very spirited, to say the very least, but it was a 

         12           very collaborative effort on the part of everyone.

         13                The conclusions reached by the committee will 

         14           raise the standards for those wishing to enter the 

         15           teaching profession just as we are raising the 

         16           standards four our K through 12 students.  In our 

         17           economy, that places such an importance on critical 

         18           thinking skills.

         19                We must continue to look at reform on all 

         20           levels.  The core of this rule has to be the 

         21           emphasis that is being placed on the need of all 

         22           teachers to be able to teach reading, but also 

         23           focuses on writing, science and math.

         24                The committee realized that changes in 

         25           requirements in one area would require changes in 

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          1           other areas due to the total number of hours that 

          2           are required for a degree.  It was the general 

          3           feeling of the committee that we must work harder 

          4           to prepare our new teachers for the challenges of 

          5           the 21st century.

          6                They must be more knowledgeable in student 

          7           assessment, classroom management and technology 

          8           than they've ever been in the past.  While these 

          9           requirements will demand more from colleges of 

         10           education and teacher candidates, we feel that it 

         11           will provide impetus for it to meet the district 

         12           needs and satisfactions.

         13                In going through the committee work, we looked 

         14           at the general education that should be required of 

         15           all teacher candidates.  We felt that we should 

         16           have 9 hours of communication skills, 12 hours in 

         17           science, 9 hours in math, 15 hours in social 

         18           studies and humanities, 6 hours.

         19                It was the expectation that all teachers would 

         20           have a substantial knowledge base of their chosen 

         21           content area.  They're going to have a complete 

         22           understanding of the relevant Sunshine State 

         23           standards.

         24                In the professional knowledge, they should 

         25           have the skills necessary to promote student 

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          1           learning.  In methodology, there's an expectation 

          2           that all teachers have the essential skills to 

          3           impart knowledge.

          4                In internships, all teacher preparation 

          5           students will effectively direct and facilitate 

          6           student learning.  Then upon their completion of 

          7           the program of study, it's expected that teacher 

          8           preparation students will have passed their subject 

          9           area and professional tests that are required of 

         10           them.

         11                We would ask that you would support this, and 

         12           it was the general consensus of the superintendents 

         13           that served with me that this was was an excellent 

         14           rule.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you answer a couple of 

         16           questions?

         17                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  I hope.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Was there a unanimous vote on 

         19           this?

         20                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  We did not have a 

         21           unanimous vote.  We came to a consensus of opinion 

         22           as we worked through this together.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What does that mean?

         24                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  No one disagreed, that 

         25           we all agreed that the conclusions were correct.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So that sounds pretty 

          2           unanimous.

          3                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  Well, we did not take a 

          4           direct vote.

          5                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But they did agree to 

          6           this report that you have in front of you.

          7                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  Yes.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  That means they supported the 

          9           report?

         10                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  Yes.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What is the difference between 

         12           what we do now and what you're proposing?  What's 

         13           the additional requirements?

         14               SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  The additional 

         15           requirements are basically in the literal arts part 

         16           of it where it requires more general education 

         17           requirements of teacher preparation, and also in 

         18           the requirements for reading -- teaching of reading 

         19           for all teachers.

         20                In the elementary schools, they must have a 

         21           requirement of 12 hours, and in the middle and high 

         22           schools, they must have a 3-hour course in teaching 

         23           reading.

         24                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Excuse me, Governor.   

         25           In addition to what they have now?  Is that what 

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          1           you're saying?

          2                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  No, not in addition.   

          3           And that was one of the problems that we had 

          4           throughout the committee is because there's a set 

          5           number of hours that you need to graduate.  As we 

          6           looked at one area, we had to work -- look at other 

          7           areas because there's a pull and tug throughout the 

          8           thing to make the hours come out.

          9                So looking through these general things, we 

         10           thought there should be specific requirements that 

         11           would help teachers be better prepared for content, 

         12           across content areas.  Reading was something that 

         13           was very important that we focused on.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What was reduced in terms of 

         15           current requirements to accommodate this emphasis 

         16           on reading?

         17                SUPERINTENDENT KELLY:  I don't remember the 

         18           exact things that we changed.  We have Dr. Proctor 

         19           here, and he can probably give you --

         20                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Why don't we do this?  

         21           Why don't we go through the speakers --

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- and then we'll ask 

         24           the questions, and whoever has the best answer can 

         25           give it.

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          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Norma?

          3                MR. PIERSON:  No, it's the Chancellor.

          4                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  I'm sorry?

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Chancellor, welcome back.

          6                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Thank you very much, 

          7           Governor.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sure you're happy to be 

          9           back.

         10                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  I'm not sure.  First, let 

         11           me just thank the Members of the State Board for 

         12           the opportunity to comment briefly on a topic that 

         13           obviously is of great importance.  Let me indicate 

         14           from the outset that our board staff, as well as 

         15           our deans of colleges of education, have followed 

         16           the development of the proposed changes to the 

         17           education rule very carefully.

         18                We also, as you have heard, did have 

         19           representation on the committee.  I can tell you 

         20           that the feelings that were expressed in the report 

         21           were not unanimous, but over the course of the past 

         22           few days, I have written a letter to the Governor 

         23           and to the Commissioner in which we've outlined 

         24           some of the basic concerns that my colleagues and I 

         25           have about this proposal.

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          1                I would just emphasize from the outset that we 

          2           share the Commissioner's strong feeling about the 

          3           importance of producing outstanding teachers for 

          4           this state.  The Board of Regents has, in fact, 

          5           established a committee that focuses on K through 

          6           12, and one of the challenges given to me, as 

          7           Chancellor, has been to work with our colleges of 

          8           education to assure that we can achieve some of the 

          9           goals that the Commissioner has articulated.

         10                Our concerns that we have put in writing speak 

         11           to the core curriculum course credit hour 

         12           requirements or general education requirements.   

         13           Second is the potential timing of the 

         14           implementation of the rule.

         15                The third concern is the recency of experience 

         16           requirement for teachers in our colleges of 

         17           education and in particular, the capacity of the 

         18           public schools to accommodate the resulting 

         19           scheduling and workload implications as our faculty 

         20           begin to meet those requirements.

         21                There's clearly a point of agreement here, and 

         22           that is, the teacher education candidates do need 

         23           to have strong content knowledge, and also 

         24           competencies, to serve the constituents that they 

         25           have trained to teach.

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          1                Our central concern is whether to mandate 

          2           specific work course work as opposed to mandating 

          3           knowledge and competencies.  I think this is a 

          4           fundamental issue that I would hope that this Board 

          5           will keep in mind.

          6                As you take a look at everything that has 

          7           happened in this state over the course of the past 

          8           few years, Educate 2000 legislation, the Sunshine 

          9           State standards, the new performance-based state 

         10           program approval process, we have focused not on 

         11           individual courses, but rather upon competencies.

         12                That, I think, is something that is extremely 

         13           important as we go forward, but there's some other 

         14           consequences of this rule that I hope you will keep 

         15           in mind because I think they have very significant 

         16           implications.  The first is the implementation time 

         17           line.

         18                The fact of the matter is that the curricular 

         19           changes that are being proposed here are of such 

         20           magnitude that we cannot possibly implement them by 

         21           the fall of 2000.  Why?  Very simple.  Number one, 

         22           many of the impacted students have already 

         23           registered for fall classes.

         24                The second is that universities, as you know.  

         25           must go through curricular change processes through 

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          1           our faculty governance system.  Many of our faculty 

          2           are not on campuses during the summer.  We do not 

          3           have the time to take all of these curricular 

          4           matters through those faculty governance processes 

          5           in time for the implementation of this program for 

          6           the fall term 2000.

          7                Next, we must modify the articulation 

          8           agreements between 10 universities and 28 community 

          9           colleges.  This will require the convening of our 

         10           curriculum committees to revisit prerequisites in 

         11           relationship to general education.

         12                We do not have time between now and the 

         13           beginning of fall 2000 term to go through that 

         14           process.  Next, our faculty have to develop new 

         15           courses, and we don't have time not only to get 

         16           those new courses developed, but through our 

         17           governance processes and on to books that have 

         18           already been closed with regard to new courses.

         19                Finally, by law, the Board of Regents must 

         20           approve changes in programs which exceed 120 hours.   

         21           That then leads to the next point, and that is -- 

         22           and I hope that you'll keep this in mind -- in 

         23           1995, the Legislature adopted Senate Bill 2330.

         24                That bill changed dramatically how our 

         25           universities operate.  It was referred to as the 

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          1           time-to-degree bill, and in it, it set forth a 

          2           number of specific requirements designated to 

          3           reduce the amount of time that students study as 

          4           they pursue their degrees.

          5                Our system subsequently went through a 

          6           three-year process to reduce general education 

          7           requirements as well as the total credits in all of 

          8           our degree programs.  This is the critical point 

          9           here.  Florida Statute 240.115 stipulates that 36 

         10           hours of general education is the maximum number 

         11           that we can offer.

         12                In contrast, the rule that you're considering 

         13           stipulates not the 36 required by law, but 45 hours 

         14           of general education.  The proposed rule, in short, 

         15           changes -- it exceeds the limits that have been 

         16           specified in law; so to implement the rule that you 

         17           have before you, the state university system will 

         18           have to receive an opinion from the Attorney 

         19           General that we have the authority to ignore this 

         20           state statute.

         21                The same Florida law also requires that 

         22           undergraduate programs must be limited to 120 

         23           hours.  In exceptional cases, it authorizes the 

         24           board to approve by a two-thirds majority vote any 

         25           exceptions to the 120-credit hour limit for 

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          1           baccalaureate degrees.

          2                The proposed action before you will inevitably 

          3           force the Board of Regents to adopt numerous 

          4           exceptions to the 120-hour rule, and I hope you 

          5           would keep in mind this simple reality, that 

          6           what -- the path down which you are walking is 

          7           going to result in our colleges of education 

          8           requiring more hours than most of the other degree 

          9           programs in our institutions outside of fields like 

         10           engineering.

         11                Right now music education requires 134 hours, 

         12           art education, 126.  In contrast, computer science 

         13           and business administration is 120 hours.  This 

         14           rule is going to force our faculty to increase the 

         15           total numbers of hours in those programs, and then 

         16           it will require the Board of Regents to, by a 

         17           two-thirds majority vote, adopt these changes.

         18                In the process, what you're doing is 

         19           lengthening undergraduate education programs to 

         20           additional course requirements.  I think this is 

         21           simply going to create further obstacles, and 

         22           you're going to create disincentives for producing 

         23           more teachers at a time when there is a need for 

         24           many more.

         25                I hope that you would, also, keep in mind that 

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          1           right now in our system, as you look over the past 

          2           three years, the challenge for us has been that we 

          3           are seeing a declining number of students that are 

          4           entering the education colleges of this state 

          5           university system.

          6                So what you'll do by adopting this rule is 

          7           increase the number of hours toward degrees.   

          8           You're going to limit options for students to take 

          9           electives, and I believe that when you look at the 

         10           bottom line at what we pay teachers, the 

         11           disincentive is going to be even greater.

         12                That, I think, is going to ultimately have 

         13           very significant implications for us in our 

         14           colleges of education.  We have already adopted -- 

         15           and I think this is another critical observation 

         16           for you, that it's interesting to look at how 

         17           Florida operates.

         18                We adopt reforms, and then a year or two later 

         19           we adopt another one without taking the time to 

         20           look at the consequences or impact of reforms we 

         21           previously adopted.  As you take a look over the 

         22           course of the past three or four years, we not only 

         23           had Senate Bill 2330, we also had the Sunshine 

         24           State standards, the educator accomplished 

         25           practices, new subject area standards, just to name 

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          1           a few.

          2                We haven't had a chance yet to determine 

          3           whether or not all of these programs are making a 

          4           difference, and now we're talking about yet another 

          5           reform without having the benefit of assessing the 

          6           consequences of what we've done up to this point.

          7                The only thing I do know is this -- I think 

          8           the Commissioner is absolutely right -- perceptions 

          9           have been a problem, but when I look at the reality 

         10           and not perceptions, what I see are these kinds of 

         11           realities:  The passage rate on the Florida Teacher 

         12           Certification Examination developed by the 

         13           Department of Education, our students are passing 

         14           with a 98 to 100 percent range consistently.

         15                When you look at the rehirability rate, which 

         16           the State Department has recently developed, 95 to 

         17           100 percent.  That does not tell me that there are 

         18           problems that we have with regard to our students.   

         19           Then we, on our campuses, are conducting employer 

         20           satisfaction surveys.

         21                We are finding, in terms of what the public 

         22           schools are telling us, that we have a 90 percent 

         23           or above satisfaction rate.  I would hope that you 

         24           would not focus on the perceptions here, but deal 

         25           with the realities.

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          1                The final point that I would like to make -- 

          2           and this is one that I hope that you will give 

          3           particular consideration to -- is the reality that 

          4           this proposed rule places our institutions at risk 

          5           in the context of accreditation standards that have 

          6           established both by SACS and also by the National 

          7           Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education.

          8                The State of Florida, several years ago, made 

          9           a very significant decision, this body did, that 

         10           you wanted your colleges of education to meet the 

         11           highest national standards possible.  We required 

         12           accreditation.

         13                What this rule does is raise serious questions 

         14           in areas of both governance and institutional 

         15           control, and I am personally convinced, having gone 

         16           through NCAT processes on two occasions at the 

         17           campus level, that if you take this action without 

         18           providing an opportunity for the faculty governance 

         19           processes to work, that you're going to create a 

         20           scenario in which we are going to be at risk with 

         21           regard to those accreditation standards.

         22                Thank you very much for the opportunity to 

         23           speak.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you leaving, Chancellor?

         25                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  No, sir.  I'll be right 

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          1           here.

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We have questions, but we'll 

          3           wait till everybody speaks.

          4                MR. PIERSON:  The next person who's asked to 

          5           speak is Norma Goonen, and after that, Rosie Webb 

          6           Joels.

          7                MS. GOONEN:  Governor Bush, Commissioner 

          8           Gallagher, Members of the Board, my name is Norma 

          9           Goonen.  I'm dean of the undergraduate school of 

         10           education at Nova Southeastern University.  That 

         11           includes five academic departments including our 

         12           teacher preparation, our education department.

         13                By the way, Nova is the proud school where Joe 

         14           Balchunas, who is teacher of the year, attended, 

         15           and this is a product of our education.  I speak 

         16           today on behalf of Nova Southeastern, but I 

         17           attended in April a meeting of the Chief Academic 

         18           Officers of Independent Colleges and Universities 

         19           of Florida, ICUF.

         20                In that meeting, there were many concerns 

         21           expressed.  Some of my colleagues have already 

         22           written.  I'm not here on behalf of ICUF.  I'm only 

         23           here on behalf of Nova Southeastern, but I did want 

         24           to -- I've had many, many phone calls and E-mails 

         25           from members of ICUF, and I'd like to also express 

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          1           concerns on behalf of independent colleges and 

          2           universities that have some concerns regarding 

          3           these rules.

          4                I'll be very specific.  First, let me tell you 

          5           that all of the colleges and universities I have 

          6           spoken to -- and we are definitely committed to the 

          7           preparation of quality teachers for Florida 

          8           classrooms.  I think we are all here agreeing we're 

          9           preaching to the choir.

         10                We have several concerns on the proposed rules 

         11           as related to study specific general educational 

         12           requirements.  At NSU, we have spent this past year 

         13           restructuring our general education requirements 

         14           leading to an undergraduate degree in all majors.

         15                In this specific instance, we have raised the 

         16           bar for all of our Gen Ed requirements.  The 

         17           proposed program, believe it or not, would make us, 

         18           if we are to keep within 120 credits or close to 

         19           it, lower the bar again for our students.

         20                We require -- our general education 

         21           requirements are more rigorous than the ones that 

         22           you're placing here, and the mix, because of your 

         23           specificity, would really impact our students 

         24           negatively.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  I'm not following 

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          1           you.

          2                MS. GOONEN:  Okay.  For example -- can I give 

          3           you an example?

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, please.

          5                MS. GOONEN:  Sure.  We have 12 hours of 

          6           writing and composition, et cetera, including 

          7           speech.  You have 9.

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So?

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So can't you do more for all 

         10           of that?

         11                MS. GOONEN:  Well, sir, if we're going to 

         12           keep -- right now we have 120 credits for a student 

         13           to graduate with an education degree.  What you're 

         14           telling us -- if we're not to let go of those 12 

         15           credits -- we would have to let go of something to 

         16           make it 120; otherwise, when we add it up, it's 

         17           going to be close to 130 or 126 or 129.

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're only requiring 

         19           36 credits.

         20                MS. GOONEN:  I'm sorry.

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're requiring a 

         22           total of 36 credits.

         23                MS. GOONEN:  That is correct.

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Most --

         25                MS. GOONEN:  But --

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          1                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm sure every one of 

          2           36, at least, you're requiring.  That's what you're 

          3           telling me, and in some cases more.

          4                MS. GOONEN:  That's correct.

          5                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So what's the big 

          6           deal?

          7                MS. GOONEN:  Well, we wouldn't have to -- 

          8           because we add up -- the distribution is different; 

          9           so in order, for example, to have an earth science 

         10           course, which we require science, but the same 

         11           courses that you're requiring are not the courses 

         12           we require.

         13                For example, we require an ethics course, and 

         14           we put that -- let's say we put that in the 

         15           humanities category.  You are requiring things -- 

         16           for example, we have 6 hours of science that we're 

         17           requiring.  You're requiring 9.

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right

         19                MS. GOONEN:  So in order to put those extra 

         20           credits in, we have to take something else off.  In 

         21           order to do that -- otherwise, the student is going 

         22           to come up with 129-credit-hour requirement.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We recognize that.   

         24           Every school -- in other words, every school is 

         25           going to have that kind of a problem, but in 

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          1           certain areas where we say 9 hours of science, you 

          2           can give specific 9 hours, or you can merge them 

          3           together, but just get the 9 hours.

          4                MS. GOONEN:  Well, my experience has been that 

          5           when you try to merge these things together, they 

          6           get watered down, and they really don't meet the 

          7           spirit of what your intent is.

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We give you the 

          9           flexibility to do that though.

         10                MS. GOONEN:  That is correct, but -- well, 

         11           okay.  I have that in that.  May I continue?  Okay.   

         12           Let's see, let's go to the next item which is 

         13           the -- I believe the specificity in the curriculum, 

         14           in the number of hours on each thing and naming 

         15           each of the courses, is really beyond what is 

         16           reasonable and perhaps wise because the 

         17           all-size-fits-all approach to all majors has not 

         18           worked in the past.

         19                Another point is that we support obviously, 

         20           program approval process, and we have -- but we 

         21           have concerns that revising requirements for the 

         22           teacher preparation programs right now does not 

         23           address the fact that the majority of Florida 

         24           teachers do not graduate from state approved 

         25           teacher programs.

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          1                This proposal may have the unintended result 

          2           of opening the back door to certification.  I 

          3           realize that's not your intent, but there are a lot 

          4           of students now that do not go through a teacher 

          5           certification program with an internship since 

          6           there are other ways of doing it.

          7                But the problem is, as Chancellor Adam Herbert 

          8           has said, that the number of students going into 

          9           programs of education in colleges and universities, 

         10           as education majors, is decreasing.  The reason for 

         11           that is that we are basically making it easier on 

         12           one end on the back door and harder on the front 

         13           door.

         14                We want to make sure these people are trained 

         15           right.  We want to make sure they're in an 

         16           internship program.  We want to make sure that they 

         17           go through a regular teacher education program, at 

         18           least the universities do.

         19                Another point is with the proposed 

         20           distribution of the general education requirements, 

         21           and I said -- I think I've already said this, it 

         22           will be extremely difficult to incorporate them 

         23           into the current curriculum without exceeding 

         24           120-credit hours.

         25                The required topics that you're saying, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Commissioner Gallagher, can be integrated into 

          2           courses to meet each of the major requirements such 

          3           as science, for example, may result in a dilution 

          4           of the version that I know is not in the spirit of 

          5           the proposed changes.

          6                By and large, that would result, again, in a 

          7           negative impact.  One final major point, as 

          8           Chancellor Herbert has said, is the time line, and 

          9           I urge you to please review the time line for this.   

         10           Fall of 2000 would really impact negatively on our 

         11           students.

         12                Catalogues for 2000 and 2001 are already 

         13           printed.  I realize that colleges and universities 

         14           have the prerogative of changing requirements, 

         15           especially if there's an accreditation issue, but 

         16           many of our students have already registered for 

         17           courses.

         18                They would have to change their schedule.   

         19           Some of the courses may not be available right now.   

         20           Some of the courses may have to be drawn up.  Some 

         21           of the courses are not -- not all academic 

         22           institutions, for example, that I have spoken to 

         23           have course in fine arts and so on.

         24                Yes.  They must have them according to your 

         25           rule, but they need some time to prepare them.   

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           Faculty are already out for the summer, and as you 

          2           know, the SACS, the Southern Association of 

          3           Colleges and Schools, the SACS requirements states 

          4           that faculty have the lion's share -- this is our 

          5           honored tradition.

          6                Faculty have the lion's share of the 

          7           responsibility for the curriculum.  Our faculty are 

          8           not here.  Most of our faculty are not here in the 

          9           summer, and we do have curriculum review processes, 

         10           as Herbert stated, that must be adhered to; so we 

         11           propose that instead of focusing on the 

         12           restructuring of the teacher preparation program, 

         13           especially the Gen Ed part at this point, or 

         14           attempting to strengthen those, the focus needs to 

         15           be on the quality and standards of alternate 

         16           methods of certification.

         17                I encourage to review the time lines for this 

         18           proposed project.  Thank you.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         20                MS. GOONEN:  Do you have any questions?

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We might.  I think we're going 

         22           to go through all the speakers.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're going through 

         24           the speakers.

         25                MS. GOONEN:  I'll be around.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                MR. PIERSON:  Rosie Webb Joels?

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for coming up.

          3                MS. JOELS:  Governor and Members of the 

          4           Cabinet.  I'm Rosie Webb Joels, president of United 

          5           Faculty of Florida and full professor of the 

          6           college of education and very proud to have 

          7           completed by 38th year as a teacher.

          8                Significant in this process of teacher 

          9           education and especially addressing the issue of 

         10           quality and competence --

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry, what university?

         12                MS. JOELS:  University of Central Florida.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         14                MS. JOELS:  But teacher for the (inaudible)   

         15           School District, El Paso.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, yeah?

         17                MS. JOELS:  Significant to the issue of 

         18           teacher quality, of course, is the topic of their 

         19           preparation, and I'm here representing the 19,000 

         20           higher ed career professionals that my union 

         21           represents.

         22                I am also very, very much concerned, as a 

         23           faculty member, of issues of governance and 

         24           specificity and faculty as they relate to 

         25           curriculum, programs of study and course work.  One 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           of the most serious violations that I observed in 

          2           the proposed rules has been corrected.

          3                There was an issue where faculty would have to 

          4           spend 50 days in K-12 classrooms.  That has been 

          5           amended from the Commissioner's office, as of June 

          6           7th, and we appreciate that, but within that one 

          7           item, I think, were some unfortunate assumptions 

          8           that lay people could draw that, and that is, that 

          9           we don't spend any time in K-12 settings.

         10                We do in both formal and informal ways, 

         11           colleges of education faculty are very, very much 

         12           involved in the work in the local districts.  That 

         13           takes the form of supervising student teachers, 

         14           and, in fact, at the University of Central 

         15           Florida -- and this is only an example of many -- 

         16           some of the courses are taught in K-12 settings.

         17                These experiences are confirmed and verified 

         18           and documented every five years very, very 

         19           thoroughly.  When we go through the accreditation 

         20           process that is sponsored by or overseen or 

         21           governed by the Florida Department of Education, 

         22           the State University System Board of Regents, and 

         23           the National Council for the Accreditation of 

         24           Teacher Education and that agency NCAT is one where 

         25           I also have some concerns because NCAT 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           accreditation requires absolutely the strong roll 

          2           of the faculty in the governance of the academic 

          3           programs and curriculum.

          4                The specificity of these rule changes, without 

          5           question, violates both the letter and the spirit 

          6           of faculty governance, and I think that if we lose 

          7           our NCAT accreditation, if it's even put at risk, 

          8           it also will put at risk the reciprocity that we 

          9           share as an accrediting agency and having our 

         10           state-approved programs being viewed very favorably 

         11           outside our borders.

         12                Additionally, deans of other academic leaders 

         13           have been providing strong and competent oversight 

         14           for programs and curriculum and courses, and I will 

         15           regret very much if it turns out that they are 

         16           being second-guessed and they are being informed 

         17           explicitly and implicitly that their leadership 

         18           hasn't been what we would want it to be because 

         19           they do provide a lot of expertise to our programs.

         20                My final and most critical point as the 

         21           president of the union is that all requirements for 

         22           faculty have to be accommodated within the 

         23           collective bargaining agreement, and within our 

         24           role, our work assignments and the traditional 

         25           academic triad for instruction and research and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           service to our disciplines, we really do 

          2           incorporate, in a productive and viable way, work 

          3           in classroom settings.  

          4                However, new environments must be accommodated 

          5           because new requirements will require that 

          6           something else is given up, and I think the roles 

          7           we have in universities today, they are valued, and 

          8           I think that the excellence and the professionalism 

          9           of our students and our alumnae speak to that.   

         10           Thank you.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

         12                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Is Sheryl Peterson 

         13           still here?

         14                (No response.)

         15                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Do we have Robert 

         16           Clark?

         17                MR. CLARK:  Governor Bush, Members of the 

         18           Cabinet, I'm Bob Clark.  I'm the acting dean of 

         19           education at Florida State University.  There's 

         20           much to this rule that is important to all of us.   

         21           The standards that are developed in the rule, I 

         22           think are quite appropriate.

         23                We need our students to have a good solid 

         24           foundation as well as the technical skills built on 

         25           top of that foundation.  We believe in high 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           standards for teachers, and we believe that teacher 

          2           education must change to meet the needs of Florida 

          3           schools.

          4                This has already been pointed out.  We've 

          5           already been through a major curricular change just 

          6           a few years ago.  We have just now graduated the 

          7           first class under that program that began in 1996.   

          8           We believe that it's critical that teacher 

          9           education programs concentrate on performance 

         10           outcomes.

         11                We do not believe that the specification of 

         12           courses and credits will, in itself, raise 

         13           performance.  The specification of courses and 

         14           credits requires curricular revision that distracts 

         15           from a focus on performance, and I think that's 

         16           where our focus needs to be at the moment.

         17                The specification of courses and credits makes 

         18           it difficult for students to elect teaching after 

         19           he or she has begun their program in higher 

         20           education.  The specifications of courses and 

         21           credits makes it difficult for students to take the 

         22           content, the subject area content that they need.

         23                Different curriculum areas have different 

         24           needs in the way of content.  The specification of 

         25           courses and credits will, at the very least, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           temporarily limit Florida's supply of teachers.  My 

          2           final point is that it's very, very difficult to 

          3           change curriculum on the time frame that's been 

          4           indicated.

          5                It takes, under the best case scenario, about 

          6           a year to make curricular changes.  As has also 

          7           been pointed out, we already have students 

          8           scheduled for their classes in the fall, and it 

          9           would be very difficult to undo that at this time.

         10                In conclusion, the issue, from our point of 

         11           view, is the specificity of course hours, not the 

         12           specificity of areas in which students need to be 

         13           competent.  Thank you.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, sir.  Anymore?

         15                MR. PIERSON:  We have Larry Byrnes from 

         16           Florida Gulf Coast, and then Dr. Proctor.

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

         18                MR. BYRNES:  Governor, Cabinet Members, it is 

         19           my pleasure to have this opportunity to share very 

         20           brief comments with you.  Most of what I had 

         21           planned to say has been covered by others.  I just 

         22           wanted to point out that as a brand new university 

         23           and a brand new college of education, we are 

         24           currently in the process of seeking approval, that 

         25           is, initial approval, for our teacher education 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           program, and as such, have a keen interest in this 

          2           bill.

          3                I want to say that I do applaud your emphasis 

          4           on high expectations of standards for teacher 

          5           education programs that include a solid grounding 

          6           in liberal arts and sciences, extensive knowledge 

          7           in the subjects to be taught, and overall high 

          8           expectations and high standards.

          9                I can assure you, as the new college of 

         10           education and new university, we meet or exceed 

         11           those standards.  My focus -- speaking only for 

         12           FGCU at this point -- is on the implementation 

         13           date.  Because we are in the process of seeking 

         14           approval for our new programs with the visits 

         15           scheduled for fall 2000, I would appreciate 

         16           receiving some time to complete the visits and 

         17           implement the new programs for students who are 

         18           already in the pipeline for fall semester 2000.

         19                To achieve this end, I would recommend that 

         20           the implementation be deferred until fall 2001.   

         21           Thank you very much.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We have Dr. Bill 

         24           Proctor who also served on the committee.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                DR. PROCTOR:  Thanks.  Mr. Governor, Members 

          2           of the Cabinet, I sat in and listened to the 

          3           previous testimony.  I felt like I probably ought 

          4           to begin with an apology for the magnitude of the 

          5           task that the committee has proposed.

          6                I didn't realize it was such an undertaking.   

          7           Let me address a few of the concerns that have been 

          8           expressed.  First off is a notion that somehow in 

          9           recommending courses, we have acted contrary to the 

         10           competency movement in education.

         11                Our charge from the Legislature was to 

         12           recommend a curriculum, and most curriculums are 

         13           comprised of courses.  To verify this, I went back 

         14           and thought that this issue was going to come up; 

         15           so perhaps I ought to check a few catalogues of 

         16           other institutions.

         17                I invite you, if you have questions about 

         18           this, to do the same.  You will find there are 

         19           programs of education listed by courses and credit 

         20           hours.   You will not find a list of 200 

         21           competencies; so if the courses and credit hours 

         22           are the coin of the realm, they're the way we 

         23           develop curriculums.

         24                Now, we deliver competencies through courses; 

         25           so there's really no conflict here.  By the 

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          1           committee simply prescribing a curriculum in terms 

          2           of courses and credit hours, it has not violated 

          3           the concept of competency.

          4                I hope we can settle that point.  If it has, 

          5           then there are many catalogues that do essentially 

          6           the same thing.  Then there's a question of 

          7           specific courses that the committee recommended.   

          8           Here again, when you recommend a curriculum, you 

          9           deal in specificity.

         10                If you're going to have a course in American 

         11           History, it's kind of hard to say that other than 

         12           to recommend a course in American History, and we 

         13           have one recommended.  I'd invite you, as you look 

         14           at the curriculum, to note that most of the 

         15           specificity is in the lower division and most of 

         16           that throughout the state will be imposed on the 

         17           community colleges rather than the state 

         18           universities because they'll do most of the lower 

         19           division preparation.

         20                That is not true for those institutions, such 

         21           as my own, where a number of good teacher 

         22           candidates come in at the freshman year, but that's 

         23           not true throughout the state.  We were asked to 

         24           put an emphasis on math, on science, on reading and 

         25           on rigorous liberal arts component.

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          1                If you look at the curriculum, I think you'll 

          2           find we did that.  The testimony that most 

          3           impressed me was not the testimony of presidents 

          4           and deans.  It was the testimony of the four 

          5           outstanding teachers that were on that committee.

          6                I asked them, why do we do so poorly in math 

          7           and science.  The answer was almost unanimously, 

          8           because we're not taught math and science, and when 

          9           you're not taught something, you don't teach it 

         10           very well.

         11                Now, that made eminent good sense to me.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  When you say we're not doing 

         13           well in math or science, what does that mean?

         14                DR. PROCTOR:  Well, if you go back and look at 

         15           the CLAST, College Levels Academic Skills Test, it 

         16           used to be required that that was a reform that we 

         17           managed to torpedo somewhere down the line.  If you 

         18           go back and look at it, the lowest scores among the 

         19           college students taking that were math.

         20                We're not doing a good job in that field; so 

         21           as I say, I inquired of the elementary teachers, 

         22           why don't you teach it well?  We weren't taught it, 

         23           and you don't teach well the things that you 

         24           haven't been taught well; so there was a need for 

         25           specificity in courses.

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          1                Now, I want to direct your attention to the 

          2           fact that that occurs in the lower division.  Now, 

          3           what is the lower division comprised of?  Well, it 

          4           has the general education component.  I would 

          5           invite you to look at the general education 

          6           components of an array of colleges.

          7                Let me tell you what they consist of.  You'll 

          8           find a little math.  You'll find a little English.   

          9           Then you will find distributed requirements.  You 

         10           must take 6 hours out of the humanities.  You must 

         11           take 12 hours out of the social sciences.

         12                You'll find absolutely no rationale running 

         13           through those 6, 12 or 15 hours that are required.   

         14           The student takes -- well, he takes the ten o'clock 

         15           class rather than the eight o'clock class.  He 

         16           takes the class where it's known the teacher grades 

         17           easier.

         18                He takes the section that is open, by and 

         19           large, to fill out the general education 

         20           requirements.  We thought, in preparation of a 

         21           teacher, there ought to be a sounder rationale than 

         22           that; so we got consensus among a large number of 

         23           educators what should this be?

         24                Now, is it the most perfect proposed 

         25           curriculum of all time?  Probably not, but look at 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the courses and ask yourself, is there anything 

          2           unreasonable there?  I argued strongly for a course 

          3           in economics because I felt like the profession 

          4           would benefit greatly from that course.  I lost on 

          5           that, but we did get American History, and we did 

          6           get a philosophy.

          7                I don't think those are unreasonable if you 

          8           look at the curriculum.  We did put the emphasis on 

          9           math.  We did put it on science, and we did put it 

         10           on reading, and given the literacy rates in the 

         11           state, reading probably wasn't a bad idea when you 

         12           come right down to it.

         13                Now, let me talk a little bit about the 

         14           frequency of experience requirement because people 

         15           have been -- I didn't know we had such concern over 

         16           something that seemed so logical.  If I'm going to 

         17           teach others how to teach students, then it would 

         18           seem to me it's not unreasonable to expect me to 

         19           have some experience with those students 

         20           occasionally, and not be 20 years away from having 

         21           seen a classroom; so I don't think that's an 

         22           unreasonable request.

         23                Probably it has some problems with 

         24           implementation, but I think those can be overcome.   

         25           Let me talk about a little bit about the 120-hour 

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          1           dilemma.  We have 45 hours prescribed, and 

          2           everybody has to intern, and on my campus, that's 

          3           16 hours, but it can be 15; so call it 60 hours.

          4                Now, you have 60 remaining hours in which to 

          5           train the teacher, and it can be done.  We've been 

          6           doing it for years.  It can be done.  You have to 

          7           organize it, and you know what?  Some disciplines 

          8           might have to cut back their program proliferation, 

          9           but that, too, won't be the end of the world.

         10                When they tell you I've got to have 134 hours, 

         11           maybe it's possible to reduce that because over 

         12           time, programs proliferate.  It's the nature of the 

         13           beast; so the question is, are all of those hours 

         14           absolutely mandatory to prepare a teacher in that 

         15           field, and I would submit to you, not necessarily.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What is the likelihood of 

         17           having to go over 120 hours based on this rule 

         18           change?

         19                DR. PROCTOR:  I take it to answer that in 

         20           general, Mr. Governor, would be difficult because 

         21           you would want to sit down -- different curriculums 

         22           have different requirements.

         23                My contention to you is that if you have 60 

         24           hours to prepare a teacher, and you've already got 

         25           the general ed done, and you have the internship 

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          1           done, you ought to be able to carefully structure 

          2           that in such a way to do it.  Now, I think in most 

          3           instances --

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The intent of the Commission 

          5           was to do this in 120 hours?

          6                DR. PROCTOR:  Yes.  I think you can.  Of 

          7           course, you have, I think, in rule, a provision for 

          8           exception to that if somebody can make a telling 

          9           case, but it strikes me as odd that our telling 

         10           cases are in music and art rather than in computer 

         11           science.

         12                I don't understand that, but some people made 

         13           a better argument than others did.  Let me talk a 

         14           little bit about the general education law that 

         15           allegedly prevents us from doing that.

         16                The general education law, in my view, has 

         17           nothing to do with this issue.  You may not offer 

         18           more or require more than 36 hours of general ed by 

         19           state rule, but this is not general ed.  This is a 

         20           certification requirement; so the Department can 

         21           require 45 hours, and it's not necessarily general 

         22           ed.

         23                I don't see how that rule actually applies.   

         24           As to NCAT, probably not fair for me to speak to 

         25           long on that 'cause I never felt like that was 

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          1           critical to a successful program.  There are a 

          2           number of outstanding teacher education 

          3           institutions in this country that are not NCAT 

          4           accredited.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  What does NCAT 

          6           mean?

          7                DR. PROCTOR:  It's the accrediting association 

          8           for colleges of teacher education, but I think less 

          9           than half of them are accredited.  To my knowledge, 

         10           University of Virginia College of Education is not 

         11           accredited by NCAT, I don't believe.  I know 

         12           Harvard isn't.  I don't think Michigan is; so NCAT 

         13           accreditation is not essential to the production of 

         14           a good teacher education program.

         15                As I say, less than half of these programs in 

         16           the nation are NCAT accredited.  We looked at that 

         17           for Florida Atlantic, and I thought it was kind of 

         18           wasteful and really a little burdensome, and I 

         19           couldn't find any relationship between its 

         20           requirements and student performance; so it didn't 

         21           seem like it was worth the cost, but that's my 

         22           opinion.

         23                I just don't think that's a burning issue 

         24           whether or not you lose NCAT accreditation, I don't 

         25           think it affects Harvard greatly.  I believe that I 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           have covered most of the general complaints.  The 

          2           other point I think I would like to close on is, 

          3           lest you think this would not impose that, I'm 

          4           arguing to the position of a single institution 

          5           committee.

          6                Twenty-five percent of our enrollment at 

          7           Flagler is teacher education.  We don't have a 

          8           major natural science department.  This will impose 

          9           as much of an obligation on our institution as any 

         10           institution in the state, but it is the right thing 

         11           to do.

         12                It should have been done 30 years ago.  You 

         13           may want to defer if you choose to.  My question I 

         14           would ask you though, if you choose to defer, what 

         15           is going to happen in that time?  Is it going to be 

         16           implemented, or is it just going to create more 

         17           opposition?

         18                As I sat here reflecting on all of the 

         19           terrible things this timing imposes on us, I was 

         20           ever so grateful that Patton's Army didn't suffer 

         21           from the same malady as our education profession, 

         22           or he'd still be turning toward the Battle of the 

         23           Bulge.

         24                It will be difficult to implement this, but it 

         25           can be done, and maybe there are some laws and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           teacher faculty issues that I just don't deal with 

          2           as much as these other folks, and you'll have to 

          3           talk to them about that, but if you decree this, I 

          4           guarantee you that Flagler will implement it.

          5                We'll implement it this year.  We'll implement 

          6           it for the freshman class, and we'll do it in 120 

          7           hours.  I welcome any questions.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Could you help me understand 

          9           the difference between unanimous and consensus and 

         10           how -- I'm a little confused because many of the 

         11           people that came in opposition to this rule are 

         12           like kind to people on the Commission with very 

         13           similar backgrounds.

         14                Can you explain a little bit about what 

         15           your -- how your deliberations went and --

         16                DR. PROCTOR:  Yes, sir.  I think I can try.  I 

         17           think the Commissiner impressed on us very firmly 

         18           what the legislative charge was, and I think we all 

         19           felt an obligation to try to carry that out, and it 

         20           wasn't a matter of would this be an easy thing to 

         21           do, was this going to be widely accepted?

         22                It was, let's listen to the people who are in 

         23           the field.  Let's listen to the teachers, and let's 

         24           listen to the superintendents.  That's who we 

         25           listened to first.  We didn't listen to the deans 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           and the presidents necessarily.

          2                After we had heard that testimony, we said, 

          3           all right.  If our obligation is to respond to this 

          4           charge, then we've got to do it in a way that we 

          5           can all agree to it; so we divided into 

          6           subcommittees.

          7                I chaired for the little subcommittees.  I 

          8           don't recall that I ever took a vote.  I think we 

          9           talked about it, and as I say, I lost some courses 

         10           in that deliberation.  I lost my course in 

         11           economics.  I still think it's a good idea.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You told us that.

         13                DR. PROCTOR:  But I won some.  I won the one 

         14           in American History, and I won the one in classroom 

         15           management, and I won in school law because I think 

         16           we put a lot of teachers in a classroom, and they 

         17           have no knowledge of school law.

         18                In this age, the age of litigation, I think 

         19           that's a crime; so I argued forcibly for that, and 

         20           other people argued for other things.  We gave and 

         21           we took, and we never took a formal vote that I 

         22           recall.  I don't know if that helps you, but that's 

         23           my recollection.

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Betty was the -- I 

         25           guess we'll call referree for the staff person on 

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          1           it, and she tell a little bit to clarify it.

          2                MS. COX:  My name is Betty Cox.  I'm deputy 

          3           commissioner for educational programs for the 

          4           Department of Education, and did have the pleasure 

          5           of staffing this committee.  It was an awesome job 

          6           that they did, and I really appreciate all of their 

          7           hard work.

          8                It was fairly clear from the get-go, however, 

          9           that a majority vote kind of methodology was not 

         10           going to be the most positive one; so we did go 

         11           with consensus, and ultimately what we did at the 

         12           point of recommendation, of formal acceptance of 

         13           recommendation was this:  We would put it out 

         14           there.  We would massage it.

         15                At some point, I would say, is there anyone 

         16           here who absolutely cannot live with this?  The 

         17           report that you have there was the report that 

         18           ultimately everybody that was at the table said 

         19           they could live with; so, you know, it's kind of 

         20           the consensus model that we used.

         21                Subsequently, all of that was sent to every 

         22           single member, and people were invited to state 

         23           individually 'cause sometimes -- you know, these 

         24           are power people.  They can't go to every meeting 

         25           -- write us and tell you what you think.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                Barbara Harrell can give you a better 

          2           impression, but from -- for the most part, we had 

          3           no substantial onslaught of yee, gods, we want to 

          4           revisit this.  The report you have, we feel, is 

          5           quite honestly a consensus report.

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Are you surprised that people 

          7           of real substance and leadership --

          8                MS. COX:  Disagree?

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- are now expressing their 

         10           opposition, not just disagreement, but opposition.

         11                MS. COX:  No, not in total.  I think one thing 

         12           I've always admired about higher education is the 

         13           academic freedom arena in which they live.  They're 

         14           highly research-oriented people.  They're very 

         15           committed and very intellectual, and I love that 

         16           about them.

         17                I think, also, when you own something and you 

         18           think it's good, you love it, and you should love 

         19           it.  We would want everyone to love it, and there 

         20           are many excellent programs in the state university 

         21           system, and folks feel connected to them.  That's a 

         22           good thing.

         23                Also some of them -- I'll speak for myself, 

         24           not necessarily for them.  Some of us are rather 

         25           bureaucratic.  As you know, Governor, and I know 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the Commissioner knows, we like to state, we need 

          2           more time to do this.

          3                The Commissioner has certainly taught me I can 

          4           quit that because he wants what he wants yesterday, 

          5           but there is a certain element to I need more time 

          6           to work all this.  Really that is process stuff, 

          7           and one thing we all know is you can do anything 

          8           you set your mind out to do.

          9                If it's important enough, you'll get it 

         10           accomplished.  I respect their positions on it and 

         11           know them to be very fine people.

         12                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  This just came about 

         13           obviously through legislation, but when I got into 

         14           office, I had more superintendents and some 

         15           principals come to me and say, you know, you really 

         16           have to change what's going on in the education 

         17           schools.

         18                Governor, I bet you've heard it, and I'd say, 

         19           well, we'll do something about that.  They'd say, 

         20           no, you won't.  I'd say, what do you mean?  They'd 

         21           say, you can't.  I'd say, what do you mean, can't?   

         22           They said, well, it's driven by the professors.   

         23           They're not going to change anything.

         24                I said, well, there's other ways to do it.   

         25           They said, no, you don't understand.  People tried 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           to do this for years.  This is -- and you've heard 

          2           it right here.  It's driven by the faculty, and the 

          3           faculty is not going to change what they don't want 

          4           to change.

          5                What ends up happening is the reason you have 

          6           over 120 hours is because you get some strong 

          7           faculty members in certain areas that influence the 

          8           others, and they get a huge music program; so 

          9           you're going to need 139 hours in music.

         10                It was interesting to hear music needs all 

         11           those extra hours, but computer sciences doesn't.   

         12           That was pretty fascinating.  Anyway, so in keeping 

         13           with the legislative requirement, I asked the staff 

         14           to take this committee's work and make it into the 

         15           rules that you have in front of you.

         16                The Florida Statute requires that this 

         17           committee's report form the basis for the revision 

         18           to the State Board rules.  As you've heard, the 

         19           original committee recommendations are somewhat 

         20           more rigorous than what you have in front of you 

         21           today.

         22                That's because some representatives from 

         23           higher ed appealed to me personally, and to people 

         24           in our department, for rule modifications, and 

         25           where appropriate, we made those for them; so we've 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           made amendments; however I will tell you-all that 

          2           this change is very serious business.

          3                It's imperative that graduates from the 

          4           Florida Teachers Preparation Programs be truly 

          5           outstanding.  I think this is the State's vision.   

          6           It's certainly my vision, and I believe it's your 

          7           your vision; so I'd like now to take up Item Number 

          8           12.

          9                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  When did the committee 

         10           make that --

         11                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It was required by 

         12           statute to get it to the Department by the 1st of 

         13           January, the middle of January.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So you've had it since 

         15           1 January?

         16                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's correct.  The 

         17           report has been out since 1 January.  It's been 

         18           available for everyone.  The rule has been in the 

         19           process --

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  So five months to --

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Right.  The rule is 

         22           to reflect the report.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You've had hearings?

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Hearings, open --

         25                DR. PROCTOR:  Hearings, open deliberations and 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           through amendments to --

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The rule has gone 

          3           through the rule-making process.  The committee 

          4           itself heard testimony of anyone who wanted to 

          5           speak, and the committee really wasn't a very big 

          6           broad committee.

          7                The idea wasn't to jam the thing.  We wanted 

          8           professors.  We wanted deans.  We wanted university 

          9           presidents.  You can see the list that we had.   

         10           I'll pass it down.

         11                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- the past comments, 

         12           they're very proud of their products too.  What 

         13           worries me a little bit is the timing, to be very 

         14           frank.  I mean, I appreciate that Dr. Proctor can 

         15           do it in two months, but we've heard from other 

         16           folks that are involved in the academic 

         17           environment, in trying to pull this together, that 

         18           that's not a --

         19                DR. PROCTOR:  I understand that.

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- very good time line.  

         21           You've been fooling around with this report since 

         22           January

         23                DR. PROCTOR:  My only recommendation to you is 

         24           if you should decide to delay -- I hope you won't, 

         25           but if you do, I'd have some ironclad guarantee 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           that that period will be used for implementation 

          2           and not for opposition.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, one thing we could do -- 

          4           I assume this -- is this going forward, in other 

          5           words, for any freshmen starting will be excused as 

          6           saying --

          7                DR. PROCTOR:  The proposal is to

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- system --

          9                DR. PROCTOR:  The proposal is to start with 

         10           freshman this fall.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, I understand, but, I 

         12           mean, it wouldn't be for juniors or sophomores?

         13                DR. PROCTOR:  No, sir.

         14                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Just the starting 

         15           freshmen.

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So how does that -- there's 

         17           two ways to do this to follow your concern.  One 

         18           way is to make it effective the fall of 2001.  

         19               DR. PROCTOR:  I'm hard-pressed to understand, 

         20           because it would seem to me that most of the 

         21           freshman year could be spent in general education 

         22           courses.

         23                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well that's the other thing 

         24           I'm going to say is, can you --

         25                DR. PROCTOR:  There may be a reason for that 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           that I don't understand, but you've English courses 

          2           there.  You have math courses.  You have math 

          3           courses.  You have social science courses.  You 

          4           have humanity courses.  You can build a freshman 

          5           year on those courses.

          6                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I don't think it's a 

          7           question of the professional, but there is a 

          8           question of general education, that the time line 

          9           for the general education is tight.  Professional 

         10           education, if that's the right terminology, the 

         11           component that's professional education clearly 

         12           won't occur till after this year.

         13                So it's really -- if you're talking about a 

         14           time line of what's -- it's the tightness of 

         15           general education.  You certainly could say, 

         16           implement the professional education.  Even though 

         17           they won't see it for a while, implement that right 

         18           now, and do what you have to do for the 

         19           professional education.

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Chancellor Herbert, do you 

         21           want to comment on this?  This is an important area 

         22           of implementation.

         23                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  With regard to 

         24           implementation, again, I just want to reiterate 

         25           that this issue of general education is extremely 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           important.  I have before me the rule that you're 

          2           considering.

          3                It says (as read), "General Education 

          4           requirements for students shall include the 

          5           following."  Then it lists 45 hours worth of 

          6           courses.  I have in front of me Florida Statutes, 

          7           and they say -- this is 240.115.

          8                (As read):  "After admission has been granted 

          9           to students under provisions of this section and to 

         10           university students who have successfully 60 credit 

         11           hours of course work, including 36 hours of general 

         12           education can meet the requirements."

         13                On the next page, it speaks very clearly with 

         14           regard to community college students.  (As read):   

         15           "An associate of art degree shall require no more 

         16           than 60 hours of college credit including 36 

         17           semester hours of general education course work."

         18                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, that doesn't 

         19           max it out.  That says, "including."  It could be 

         20           more.  It just says, "including."  How can you say 

         21           that's a max?

         22                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Well, what we have been 

         23           advised is that we cannot exceed the 36 credit 

         24           hours, and again, the point for us is that we'll 

         25           just have to get -- because of the opinions that 

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          1           we've gotten from our general counsel, we'd have to 

          2           go to the Attorney General and determine whether or 

          3           not we can exceed the 36 hours.

          4                I can tell you that when the Senate bill was 

          5           under consideration, we were told that all of the 

          6           universities have now dropped their degree 

          7           requirements for general education to 36 hours to 

          8           comply with the law as we understood it, and so 

          9           that, I think, is the operational challenge we have 

         10           here.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is this so-called reform 

         12           lowering requirements?  

         13                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  That's right.  At one 

         14           point, for example --

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- or how you interpreted it.

         16                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  That's right.  When I was 

         17           president of UNF, we had a 42-hour requirement for 

         18           general education; so we had to eliminate a writing 

         19           class, which I regard as being critical for the 

         20           students in our community, and we had to eliminate 

         21           some lab sections because of that law.

         22                Every university in our system reduced their 

         23           general education requirements to 36 hours to 

         24           comply with the law as we were told it was drafted, 

         25           and so our concern that this rule is telling us 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           that we must must have 45 hours in our general 

          2           education requirements.

          3                We have a law that's telling us 36; so for us 

          4           to implement this, we'll have to get an opinion 

          5           from the Attorney General telling us that we can 

          6           ignore this section as it has been, and also 

          7           legislative history.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Whether that's the case or 

          9           not, I'm sure that one of the affected parties 

         10           probably will seek -- hey, welcome to my world.   

         11           This is the way it works.  Then you pass the rule.   

         12           You get sued.

         13                Someone is going to challenge this, and we'll 

         14           know quickly.  I'd rather have it through an 

         15           Attorney General opinion so it can be done in a 

         16           timely fashion.  The administrative procedures 

         17           process is close.

         18                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Let me just also say, 

         19           Governor, that in response --

         20                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We'll type up a 

         21           preliminary tomorrow or Thursday.  We'll work with 

         22           your lawyers and look at it.

         23                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Thank you.

         24                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You're welcome.

         25                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  And, Governor, in 

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          1           response to your earlier question about unanimity, 

          2           I would just call to your attention to this realty, 

          3           that when the question was raised as to whether or 

          4           not everyone could live with the document, there 

          5           were some other elements included in that final 

          6           plan that were deleted in the context of this rule, 

          7           and so --

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What were they?

          9                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  One of them, for example, 

         10           related to the concept of charter colleges of 

         11           education and the possibility of recognizing 

         12           innovative ways for our colleges to fulfill their 

         13           obligations.  That was one that stood out.

         14                Dottie, were there others?

         15                MS. MINEAR:  Yes, but I don't think they were 

         16           the kinds of things that could be dealt with in the 

         17           rule, the context of the rule.

         18                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Some kinds of issues that 

         19           also came up, but our folks have definitely voiced 

         20           concerns about a number of these elements.  We have 

         21           shared our concerns over the course of the past 

         22           several weeks with staff from the Department of 

         23           Education.

         24                I just don't want you to think that this is 

         25           something just coming out of the blue.  We have 

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          1           been engaged in these conversations because we're 

          2           committed to producing outstanding teachers, but 

          3           we're also concerned about the implementation 

          4           potential of this proposal.

          5                Our situation is different from many of the 

          6           private institutions or some of the private 

          7           institutions of the state from what I've been 

          8           hearing thus far.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you give me an assessment 

         10           of where you think we stand in terms of -- if this 

         11           rule was passed, where would we stand compared to 

         12           other states in terms of requirements to get a -- 

         13           to graduate to become a teacher?

         14                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Right.  What we estimate 

         15           is this, that this will require somewhere in the 

         16           neighborhood of 130 to 140 credit hours, depending 

         17           upon which discipline we're talking about within 

         18           the field of education.

         19                There are 45 hours proposed here for general 

         20           education.  There are 13 hours for content, 21 

         21           hours for professional education.  Because of the 

         22           new English-as-a-second-language requirements now, 

         23           anywhere from 6 to 15 hours there depending upon 

         24           whether or not we integrate that content in the 

         25           courses or five required courses, 6 to 12 hours of 

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          1           field experience, 9 to 18 hours for training to 

          2           address other education accomplished practices.

          3                We, in our universities, have 9 hours of 

          4           common law division education requirements we've 

          5           worked on in collaboration with the community 

          6           colleges, and then another -- up to another 9 hours 

          7           of prerequisites that vary according to whether or 

          8           not a person is in music, elementary ed, et cetera, 

          9           and also 3 to 6 hours of foundation.

         10                What this basically says is that if a student 

         11           decides to enroll in education, they will have 

         12           virtually no electives whatsoever, that they will 

         13           -- unlike every other student in our 

         14           universities.  This is just one more reason why I 

         15           say we've got to be careful because what we're 

         16           doing is not only moving away from competency-based 

         17           education, as we have in all other areas, but we're 

         18           also making it less and less attractive for 

         19           students to pursue degrees in education both 

         20           because of all the requirements, the number of 

         21           hours, and the significant inflexibility that we're 

         22           providing for students to pursue a course if they 

         23           would just like to study.

         24                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, going back 

         25           to what Chancellor said, the implementation in the 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           freshman year, let's go back to that for a second.   

          2           How hard would that be given this rule?

          3                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Well, in terms of the 

          4           freshman level, a student is going to take general 

          5           education requirements.  The only issue there is 45 

          6           hours versus 36, but a student is going to take 

          7           those hours.

          8                What I'm concerned about is mandating 45 hours 

          9           when we have just gone through a process in the 

         10           past five years of reducing those hours back down 

         11           to 36, but the students are going to take whatever 

         12           courses they must take in the context of the lower 

         13           division.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Didn't you just say you were 

         15           opposed to the reduction from 45 to 36 when you 

         16           were president of the university?

         17                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  I was, yes, but the 

         18           Legislature has taken a number of actions that I 

         19           have objected to; so I have accepted that as a 

         20           reality of life, Governor.

         21                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I might include -- 

         22           and I also include including the law that set this 

         23           rule in place.  That was another one that he 

         24           disagreed with, too.

         25                MR. PIERSON:  Governor, we also have someone 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           from Nova Southeast that also has a problem 

          2           implementing it this year, and you can hear from 

          3           her.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  But the Chancellor just said 

          5           it's really not the problem in the freshman class; 

          6           therefore, there won't be any need to change 

          7           anything in the general courses.  Is that right?

          8                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Yeah.  A student is going 

          9           to come in and take a certain number of general 

         10           education requirements or meet those general 

         11           education requirements.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  They're going to be available.

         13                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Yeah, the courses are 

         14           going to be available.  The question is, what do 

         15           they have to take, and what this says is that they 

         16           may have to take a different combination of courses 

         17           and more of them.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Your bigger concern is the 

         19           plus -- 120-hour plus --

         20                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  That's correct.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  You've assessed this to say it 

         22           goes beyond 120 hours?

         23                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  And the 36 hours and the 

         24           competency.

         25                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Would it also 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           be that you may not have as many course offerings 

          2           as you need for the number of students?

          3                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  For the fall term.  Yeah, 

          4           it's hard.  See, right now all of our students have 

          5           enrolled, and to the extent that all of those 

          6           students have enrolled in these classes, it may not 

          7           be a problem, but again, the key is not so much 

          8           whether or not they can take the classes this fall, 

          9           because most of them have already registered.

         10                The question is how many do they have to take, 

         11           and are you prepared to move away from the concept 

         12           of competency-based in this one area alone?  How 

         13           important is that to you?  How important is it to 

         14           you that we maintain these programs in a fashion 

         15           that makes them competitive?

         16                Ultimately, what you're going to do is create 

         17           a scenario in this state of which most folks are 

         18           going to conclude that if you want to become a 

         19           teacher, the way to do it is to go in through the 

         20           back door and not through the front door.

         21                That's inevitably what you're going to do as a 

         22           result of this.  That is a problem, I think, 

         23           Governor.

         24                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Here's what -- Let me 

         25           just give you my point of view.  The 45 hours is 

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          1           not a problem.  You've got 120 hours to choose from 

          2           which you have to take 45 hours.  The problem is 

          3           that the professors in the schools have made up 

          4           their minds what the other hours ought to be 

          5           instead of letting the students have the choice of 

          6           that.

          7                All of a sudden, now you're going to be up to 

          8           130 hours.  Well, they're just going to have to cut 

          9           some of their things that they think are important 

         10           out to what we think is important, like reading and 

         11           science and things like that.

         12                That's sort of what -- not we, what the 

         13           committee basically sought.  Let me give you an 

         14           example of some of the problems that exist.  The 

         15           Department of Education, and actually this State 

         16           Board of Education, signed a decree nine or ten 

         17           years ago with the federal courts on ESOL.

         18                It required 300 hours of training, nine years 

         19           ago, ten years ago.  Two years ago is the first 

         20           time one of the teaching colleges actually started 

         21           including it as part of their curriculum.  Why?   

         22           Because the professors didn't like it.  That's why.

         23                They didn't like the idea that there was an 

         24           agreement.  They didn't like the idea that teachers 

         25           had to have it; so they didn't do it, and so what 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           ended up happening is you graduate as a teacher.   

          2           You get to the district -- and the district people 

          3           can tell you this -- and the district now has to 

          4           give you 300 hours of ESOL training.

          5                Now finally, a couple of years ago the 

          6           University of South Florida, I think FAU, and I 

          7           guess probably FSU -- now they're all starting to 

          8           finally do it, but nine years later?  I mean, that 

          9           just doesn't make sense to me.

         10                That's part of the problem is that they 

         11           just -- they don't want to move.  It's just this is 

         12           the way it is, and we like it this way.

         13                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Governor, if I could just 

         14           respond, I know that that is certainly a 

         15           perspective that one could take with regard to how 

         16           we operate.

         17                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, that's my 

         18           perspective.

         19                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  It is clearly a set of 

         20           perspectives of how we operate, but let me put a 

         21           different twist on that.  Over the course of the 

         22           past five years, the university system of this 

         23           state has gone through a period of significant 

         24           transformation.

         25                The fact of the matter is that we were forced, 

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          1           in a matter of a year, to go through a process in 

          2           which we realigned all of our courses in terms of 

          3           upper and lower division.  We had to enter into 

          4           major agreements with the community colleges of 

          5           this state.

          6                We had to reduce our credit hours and degree 

          7           programs.  We had to take them back to the Board of 

          8           Regents if they exceeded 120 hours, and all of our 

          9           faculties were going through that kind of process 

         10           on a program-by-program basis.

         11                You can only do so many things.  There are 

         12           only so many hours in a day.  They had to deal with 

         13           those state-mandated requirements, and they did 

         14           that in a very effective fashion.  I think that 

         15           part of the problem here is -- and this is 

         16           especially the case with regard to colleges of 

         17           education -- is that every year we impose one new 

         18           set of policies and procedures, one additional set 

         19           of requirements.

         20                Our teachers are supposed to come out with 

         21           skills in five or six different areas, and the 

         22           reality is our faculty can't even keep up with all 

         23           of the things that we're being asked to do.  This 

         24           is what I was trying to point out a few moments 

         25           ago, that in the final analysis, reform takes time.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                We can continue to come in and impose these 

          2           new rules.  We don't give the institutions a chance 

          3           to implement them.  You don't have a chance to see 

          4           what the consequences of those efforts are, and I 

          5           can assure you that this is not a matter of faculty 

          6           sitting around deciding, we aren't going to respond 

          7           to state law or to mandates.

          8                It's trying to figure out how we can 

          9           responsibly address our obligation to provide 

         10           quality education within the context of all of 

         11           these demands being placed on us.

         12                GOVERNOR BUSH:  How do you answer the ESOL 

         13           question?

         14                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  ESOL was being addressed 

         15           -- and this is the point I'm trying to make, that 

         16           the ESOL issue was being addressed while we were 

         17           dealing with all these other issues.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Nine years.

         19                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  I'm not sure that it's 

         20           nine years, but the bottom line is that the 

         21           universities have been dealing ESOL issue.  I can 

         22           come back and tell you on a point-by-point basis 

         23           what's happened on each of the campuses.   I don't 

         24           believe it's taken nine years for all the 

         25           universities to fulfill that requirement.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It's not even in all 

          2           of the universities yet unfortunately.

          3                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Well, I'll have to go 

          4           back and take a look at that because I am curious, 

          5           and I'll share that information with you because 

          6           I'm just shocked to hear that that's the case, but 

          7           in the final analysis, when you take a look again 

          8           at all of the things that DOE has demanded our 

          9           colleges of education do, I think that we're doing 

         10           an incredible job of responding to all these 

         11           mandates.

         12                And all we're doing is making it more and more 

         13           difficult for our faculty to meet their 

         14           responsibilities.  I worry about that a great deal.

         15                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Governor, I've got to 

         16           go back to it again.  I need to clear up one more 

         17           thing.  I'm not quite sure what -- this is a great 

         18           committee, and I know they've got probably -- came 

         19           up with a product, but I'm still confused about 

         20           what they voted.

         21                It was not a vote.  It was a consensus, but 

         22           the question was, is there anything that you can't 

         23           live with?  I think I understand what that says, 

         24           but with all these people that were here -- and the 

         25           Doctor is here standing here right now -- are they 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           in support of all this?

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Here's what you have.  

          3           You have tremendous pressure within the 

          4           institutions that have curriculum driven by the 

          5           professors, and one of the reasons that they didn't 

          6           have any votes is, in all honesty, because the 

          7           deans of schools and the other people didn't want 

          8           to have all the faculty and everybody else's --

          9                That's why they told me that they couldn't 

         10           make changes in their schools.  I've had deans of 

         11           teaching schools in this state come to me and say, 

         12           I wish we could change the curriculum, but I just 

         13           can't.  The faculty won't let us.

         14                I've had university presidents tell me the 

         15           same thing.  We can't do it.  The faculty won't let 

         16           us; so that's when the law got changed, and a 

         17           committee got appointed that was mostly people that 

         18           use the facility -- use the results of this teacher 

         19           training on what they want them to have as training 

         20           when they come out.

         21                Now, I do have an amendment I'd like to offer 

         22           now.  This is on the amendment to take care of 

         23           recency.  This is an issue that really has come up 

         24           a lot, and that is -- and you heard Dr. Proctor 

         25           mention it -- we have professors that teach in our 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           teaching colleges that have not been in the K 

          2           through 12 system in a long time.

          3                Now, a lot of them have it, but a lot of them 

          4           don't go and do it.  They go write papers.  They 

          5           can do other things, but they aren't in there in an 

          6           inner city school finding out what the problems are 

          7           and trying to teach there.

          8                In Duval County, 25 percent of our teachers 

          9           quit the first year because they can't handle the 

         10           discipline in the classroom.  That's why discipline 

         11           and classroom management got added.  Well, you see, 

         12           there weren't any professors of classroom 

         13           management; so therefore, there's nobody to drive 

         14           the classroom management.

         15                So those are some of the intrinsic problems 

         16           they're having; so in order -- which I agreed with 

         17           you.  In order to help them on that, we're holding 

         18           off this recency for a year.  I'd like to pass this 

         19           -- this is Amendment 1 which you have already seen.

         20                I think I need to move that so that the 

         21           recency rule is in the right position.  This holds 

         22           off recency to July of 2001 instead of -- that's 

         23           pre-kindergarten through 12 grade experience.   

         24           That's what this amendment does; so I'd like to 

         25           move that amendment to hold the recency off for a 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           year to let the professors get --

          2                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second?

          3                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So there's a motion and a 

          5           second of an amendment.  Do we have to vote on the 

          6           amendment, or do we -- any discussion on the 

          7           amendment to defer for one year the -- what that 

          8           terms means is residency --

          9                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Recency.  They call 

         10           it "recency."

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's like residency.  I mean, 

         12           it's like --

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Sort of.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the equivalent of -- 

         15           recency requirement for one year.

         16                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Just a second.  I want 

         17           to make sure I've got the right piece of paper 

         18           because I've got two pieces of paper, both dated 

         19           the same.

         20                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, this one -- 

         21           this one would say --

         22                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  What's on page 2?

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  What's on page 2?

         24                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.

         25                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It looks like this 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           (indicating).  I guess it's below -- the paragraph 

          2           that says, "sub-sub-sub" across there.

          3                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I'm looking at 

          4           one that talks about "general education 

          5           requirements."

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No.

          7                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  That's not the right 

          8           one.

          9                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The one on recency, 

         10           the one I just moved in.

         11                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  We're on this one, not 

         12           this one?

         13                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're on --

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Did you get the --

         15                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I know what the 

         16           amendment is he's talking about.  I have several of 

         17           them here, and I was trying to --

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Right.

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I know which one he's 

         20           talking about.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  Is there any discussion 

         22           on this amendment to defer or to delay the 

         23           implementation on the recency requirement till July 

         24           1st, year 2001?

         25                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  How about an 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           amendment to the amendment requiring the state 

          2           Board of Education members to also have to do a 

          3           number of recency hours each year?

          4                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'm for it.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  As a teacher or as a lawyer?

          6                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I refuse to be a 

          7           lawyer.

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I refuse to be a lawyer.

          9                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  As a teacher, 

         10           Governor.  I don't think our hours probably should 

         11           be as stringent as theirs, but I think most of us 

         12           would do it, but I do think we should formalize it 

         13           before we require all of our teachers to do it and 

         14           all of our professors to do it, our teaching 

         15           teachers, and if we are the State Board of 

         16           Education and handling issues like this, I think it 

         17           would be very important for us to also spend a 

         18           number of hours in a classroom.

         19                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I think it's a great 

         20           idea.

         21                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  How many hours 

         22           would you want to do on that?

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And we put in there 

         24           you can't vote on State Board Issues if you haven't 

         25           put your hours?

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You can't sit 

          2           through any of these -- but I'd like to amend it.  

          3           Any quick discussion on how many hours that should 

          4           be done?  How many hours we'd like for teacher -- 

          5           is it 50 over a five year period or --

          6                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You have to be careful 

          7           now.  You know we've got environmental things that 

          8           you're dealing with.  You have all kinds of 

          9           activities that the State Board of Education --

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is it okay for us to just make 

         11           a pledge to be in the -- I think that the General 

         12           should be in the classroom more hours than you.

         13                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's fine.

         14                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, your point is 

         15           well-taken.  I agree that --

         16                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's an amendment.  There's 

         17           a motion to amend the rule and a second.  Any 

         18           discussion?

         19                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  We're only addressing 

         20           an amendment now.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, we're only addressing 

         22           it.  Any discussion?  All in favor say aye.

         23                (Affirmative response.)

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         25                (No response.)

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Motion passes.  Commissioner 

          2           Gallagher, are you still working here, or are       

          3           you --

          4                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Dr. Proctor had a 

          5           comment.

          6                DR. PROCTOR:  I just had one on page 5 of the 

          7           rule, Commissioners, Governor.  Perhaps the 

          8           terminology there would eliminate the Chancellor's 

          9           problem with general education requirements.  On 

         10           Item 1, page 5 of the proposed rule --

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I don't think I have that.

         12                DR. PROCTOR:  All it simply reads is:   

         13           "General education requirements for students shall 

         14           require the following" -- that's the 45 hours, but 

         15           if you change that to read, the education major 

         16           program shall require, you're no longer making 

         17           reference to general education.

         18                If there's a 9-hour requirement and the 

         19           student picks up 6 in his general education 

         20           program, that's fine.  All he has to do is pick up 

         21           3 more, and we don't get into the problem with the 

         22           restriction on general ed because what you're 

         23           really recommending is an education major program.

         24                The student can pick up the general ed hours.  

         25           For example, 9 hours are required in science.  Most 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           schools require 3 or 6, so he only has to pick up 3 

          2           or 6 more, but you're not dealing with general ed.   

          3           You're dealing with programmatic requirements.

          4                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Chancellor, you want to 

          5           comment on that?

          6                DR. PROCTOR:  It seems to me it eliminates the 

          7           Chancellor's problems.

          8                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Governor, that does 

          9           eliminate the concern that I have about the 36 

         10           hours.  If it says, "general education 

         11           requirements," I believe it's a problem.  If you're 

         12           speaking to it in a broader context of education or 

         13           requirements for students who receive a degree in 

         14           education and -- what we have to do then is figure 

         15           out how those remaining hours above the 36 are 

         16           going to be categorized, but that does address, I 

         17           would imagine, the legal requirements.

         18                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You'll need an 

         19           Attorney General's opinion by tomorrow morning 

         20           then?

         21                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  If reference to 

         22           general education is deleted, we would not need 

         23           that.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  I just wanted someone to 

         25           restate the amendment to the rule, the second 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           amendment.

          2                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Dr. Proctor?

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Proctor, do you want to 

          4           come back so we can do this, get the specific 

          5           wording.

          6                DR. PROCTOR:  It's on page 5 --

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Right.

          8                DR. PROCTOR:  -- and it's Item 1.

          9                GOVERNOR BUSH:  What would you change?

         10                DR. PROCTOR:  And it reads that, "General 

         11           education requirements for students shall include 

         12           the following."  I would just say that the 

         13           education major program shall require the 

         14           following.

         15                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner, would you like 

         16           to make a motion to change that?

         17                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I agree to that 

         18           change.

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second?

         20                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll second it.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any discussion?

         22                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Does this also kind of 

         23           take care of the timing question?

         24                DR. PROCTOR:  If you make -- they would have 

         25           to speak to that from their perspective, but in my 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           view, if the student -- typically a student has 6 

          2           hours of English, as I look at the general ed 

          3           requirement.

          4                This course program says 9.  It's going to 

          5           take 6 anyway, one in each semester.  He's going to 

          6           take 6 hours in math, one in each semester.  He's 

          7           going to take 9 to 12 hours of social sciences, one 

          8           in each semester.

          9                He can pick up his fine arts course, one in 

         10           each semester.  You can build a freshman 

         11           curriculum, and he would really be working on these 

         12           requirements, I would think.

         13                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Chancellor, do you want to 

         14           comment?

         15                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Governor, Members of the 

         16           Board, we would still urge you to delay this a year 

         17           so we can go through our governance processes.   

         18           There are some additional courses that are required 

         19           in this rule, and we need time to go through the 

         20           governance process to make sure all that's done, so 

         21           that the extra year I think is really important.

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Having said that though, as it 

         23           relates to the specific freshman student from his 

         24           world, from his perspective, this would not -- we 

         25           would not have to wait.  You're saying in terms of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           the governance of getting the faculty involved and 

          2           the change in curriculum and all that.

          3                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  The key thing is this, 

          4           that when a student is admitted into the 

          5           university, they're admitted under a catalogue --

          6                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Right.

          7                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  -- with a set of 

          8           requirements for the completion of a degree, and 

          9           what I'm urging you to do is to not implement it 

         10           for this year, but for the next year so that when a 

         11           student comes in, we have a faculty-adopted program 

         12           of study that is in the catalogue.

         13                We don't have time now to put any of this in 

         14           the catalogues because they're already completed.   

         15           Students have been admitted under the catalogue for 

         16           this year; so what we would do then is implement it 

         17           effective the 2001 academic year.

         18                Students would be admitted understanding what 

         19           all the requirements are in the context of that 

         20           catalogue, and that's what they have and obligation 

         21           to meet.  Otherwise --

         22                GOVERNOR BUSH:  This really isn't an 

         23           accommodation to the student.  This is an 

         24           accommodation to the faculty and to the university 

         25           because they can still take the English class, 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           whatever the freshman English class is in that 

          2           catalogue, and it would still move them towards 

          3           getting a teacher certificate.

          4                CHANCELLOR HERBERT:  Well, what I was arguing, 

          5           Governor, is that it is a contractual obligation.   

          6           When we admit a student under a catalogue, we're 

          7           telling them that these are the requirements for 

          8           this degree.

          9                Students we've admitted for this fall have not 

         10           been told that they have to take these additional 

         11           hours; so that's what I'm concerned about.  If it's 

         12           2001, then you don't have a problem.

         13                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I kind of agree with 

         14           that.  I think a year is going to go by so quick.   

         15           These policy changes, which, I think, are the right 

         16           changes, are going to be here before we know it, 

         17           but it gives them a chance to adjust to it.  If 

         18           we're doing something this significant, a little 

         19           bit of time probably --

         20                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Let's see if there's any 

         21           discussions, and we'll get this amendment taken 

         22           care of, and we'll go back to the rule, or there's 

         23           other amendments.  There's a motion and a second to 

         24           amend the rule as we have discussed.

         25                I don't want to repeat it again.  All in favor 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           say aye.

          2                (Affirmative response.)

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

          4                (No response.)

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The amendment passes.  Now, 

          6           any other discussion on the rule itself?

          7                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I have this other 

          8           amendment that I think came from the Commissioner 

          9           of Education.  At least, that's what it looks like.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner, you want to 

         11           comment on the other amendment?

         12                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  You have Amendment 

         13           Number 2 there.  This amendment does do -- I've 

         14           been reluctantly holding this back 'cause it does 

         15           hold off on the general education requirements to 

         16           the year 2001/2002.

         17                It does leave the specialization and the 

         18           professional education requirements the way they 

         19           are, but it does give them that break.  If that'll 

         20           make everybody feel better it, I'll move it.

         21                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I would be more 

         22           comfortable with this arrangement.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  In that case, I'll 

         24           move it.

         25                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I'll second it.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                GOVERNOR BUSH:  So this amendment will 

          2           defer --

          3                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the general 

          4           education requirements for a year.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a second 

          6           on this amendment.  All in favor say aye.

          7                (Affirmative response.)

          8                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

          9                (No response.)

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.  Good timing, Tom.  

         11           Any discussion on the rule itself?

         12                COMPTROLLER GALLAGHER:  Move the rule.

         13                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Any 

         15           discussion?

         16                (No response.)

         17                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All in favor say aye.

         18                (Affirmative response.)

         19                GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed?

         20                (No response.)

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  The rule passes.  Is there any 

         22           other --

         23                MS. JOELS:  I just have one comment, if I may.

         24                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, ma'am.

         25                MS. JOELS:  Rosie Webb Joels, president of 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           United Faculty of Florida.  The tyranny of the 

          2           faculty is a myth, but don't tell anybody.

          3                MR. PIERSON:  We have more agenda, 

          4           Commissioners.

          5                GOVERNOR BUSH:  We have to cite a utility plan 

          6           tonight.  What item are we on?

          7                MR. PIERSON:  Item 13 was deferred through the 

          8           request of community colleges.

          9                COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Moved to defer.

         10                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         11                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded without 

         12           objection.  Motion to defer is approved.

         13                MR. PIERSON:  Item 14 is an SUS rule, 

         14           6C-1.0001, general description and address of 

         15           agency.

         16                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

         17                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         18                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         19           objection, it's approved.

         20                MR. PIERSON:  Item 15 is a Board of Regents' 

         21           Rule Repeal of Rule , 6C-1, organization, powers, 

         22           duties, and functions of the Board of Regents.

         23                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         24                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         25                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1           objection, it's approved.

          2                MR. PIERSON:  Item 16 is an amendment to Rule 

          3           6C-7.001, tuition, fee schedule and percentage of 

          4           cost, Board of Regents.

          5                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

          6                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          7                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          8           objection, it's approved.

          9                MR. PIERSON:  Item 17 is a Board of Regents 

         10           amendment to Rule 6C-7.002, fee assessment and 

         11           remittance.

         12                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.

         13                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         14                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         15           objection, it's approved.

         16                MR. PIERSON:  Item 18 is an appointment to the 

         17           State Board of Community Colleges, Silvia M. 

         18           Velazquez.

         19                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         20                COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         21                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         22           objection, it's approved.

         23                MR. PIERSON:  Item 19 is an appointment to the 

         24           District Board of Trustees, Okaoosa-Walton 

         25           Community College, Estreena K. Wells.

                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

          2                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

          3                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

          4           objection, it's approved.

          5                MR. PIERSON:  Item 20 is a reappointment to 

          6           the District Board of Trustees, Daytona Beach 

          7           Community College, Pramila S. Desai.

          8                COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

          9                ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         10                GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.  Without 

         11           objection, it's approved.  Thank you-all.

         12                (The State Board of Education Agenda was 

         13           concluded.)

         14                (Cabinet Meeting concluded at 5:00 p.m.)












                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.


          1                      CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER


          3     STATE OF FLORIDA:

          4     COUNTY OF LEON:

          5               I, NANCY P. VETTERICK, do hereby certify that 

          6     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

          7     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

          8     notes were thereafter translated under my supervision;   

          9     and the foregoing pages numbered 200 through 334 are a 

         10     true and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.

         11               I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

         12     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor 

         13     relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or 

         14     financially interested in the foregoing action.

         15               DATED THIS 26TH DAY OF JUNE, 2000.




         19                                   ___________________________
                                              NANCY P. VETTERICK
         20                                   100 SALEM COURT
                                              TALLAHASSEE, FL 32301
         21                                   (850) 878-2221




                            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

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