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              T H E   C A B I N E T 
           S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A

                       VOLUME I
                      Pages 1-75
         The above agencies came to be heard before 
     THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush 
     presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, 
     The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, 
     January 25, 2000, commencing at approximately 
     9:07 a.m. 

                     Reported by:
                  LAURIE L. GILBERT
           Registered Professional Reporter
               Certified Court Reporter
             Certified Realtime Reporter
              Registered Merit Reporter
               Notary Public in and for
            the State of Florida at Large
                   100 SALEM COURT
              TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301




         Representing the Florida Cabinet: 

         JEB BUSH

         Commissioner of Agriculture


         Secretary of State

         Attorney General

         BILL NELSON

         Commissioner of Education

                       *   *   *


                  January 25, 2000
                     I N D E X

ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE

(Presented by Tom Herndon,
    Executive Director)

 1             Approved                       5
 2             Approved                       5
 3             Approved                       6
 4             Approved                       7
 5             Approved                       7

(Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,

 1             Approved                       8
 2             Approved                       8
 3             Approved                       9

(Presented by James A. Zingale, Ph.D.,
    Executive Director)

 1             Approved                      10
 2             Approved                      11
 3             Approved                      11

(Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
    Deputy Commissioner)

 1             Approved                      12
 2             Approved                      13
 3             Approved                      13
 4             Approved                      13
 5             Approved                      13
 6             Approved                      60
 7             Approved                      60


                  January 25, 2000
                      I N D E X

ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE

(Presented by Teresa Tinker,

 1             Approved                      61
 2             Approved                      61
 3             Approved                      62
 4             Approved                      62

(Presented David B. Struhs,

 1             Approved                      63
  Substitute 2 Approved                      63
 3             Approved                      69
Substitute 4   Approved                      70
Substitute 5   Approved                      71
 6             Approved                      72
 7             Approved                      72
 8             Approved                      73
 9             Approved                      73
10             Approved                      74
11             Withdrawn                     74
12             Approved                      74
               Dead Head Logging             63

         CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER             75

                       *   *   *


            STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           5
                  January 25, 2000
         1                    P R O C E E D I N G S

         2              (The agenda items commenced at 9:33 a.m.)  

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of 

         4          Administration.

         5              MR. HERNDON:  Good morning.

         6              Item Number 1 is approval of the minutes of 

         7          the meeting held December 14th, 1999.

         8              TREASURER NELSON:  I move it.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        11              Without objection, it's approved.

        12              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 2 is approval of 

        13          a fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding 

        14          seventy-five million three hundred thousand 

        15          dollars, State of Florida, full faith and 

        16          credit State Board of Education, capital outlay 

        17          bonds, 2000 Series A.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a motion? 

        19              TREASURER NELSON:  I move it.

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second it.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        22              Without objection, it's approved.

        23              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 3 is approval of 

        24          a fiscal determination of amounts not exceeding 

        25          thirteen million eighty-five thousand tax 


            STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           6
                  January 25, 2000
         1          exempt, and three million four hundred and 

         2          seventy thousand dollar taxable, Florida 

         3          Housing Finance Corporation housing revenue 

         4          bonds, the series to be designated later for 

         5          the Nelson Park Apartments Project.

         6              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Move Item 3.

         7              TREASURER NELSON:  Second it.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         9              Without objection, it's approved.

        10              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 4, approval of a 

        11          fiscal determination required by Article VII, 

        12          Section 16(C) of the Florida Constitution of 

        13          one or more series in an aggregate amount not 

        14          exceeding a hundred and fifty-nine million 

        15          nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand 

        16          nine hundred and twelve dollars, Florida 

        17          Housing Finance Corporation homeowner mortgage 

        18          revenue bonds, Series 2000 3 through 9; and not 

        19          exceeding one million Florida Housing Finance 

        20          Corporation down payment assistance note, the 

        21          FNMA Second Mortgage Program, Series 2000-A.

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I move Item 4.

        23              TREASURER NELSON:  And I second it.

        24              MR. HERNDON:  I might note, Governor, 

        25          before you adopt just --


            STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION           7
                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

         2              MR. HERNDON:  -- to make the -- it clear 

         3          that -- that this min-- the date was corrected 

         4          on this to read February -- or excuse me -- 

         5          December 10th.  We had a -- a date 

         6          transposition, and I wanted to just note for 

         7          the record that that was corrected.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  There's a motion and 

         9          a second.

        10              Without objection, it's approved.

        11              MR. HERNDON:  Item Number 5 is a report by 

        12          the Executive Director on the fund activity 

        13          analysis report for the months of October and 

        14          November 1999.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And accept the 

        16          report.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  And I second that 

        18          acceptance.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        20              MR. HERNDON:  That completes the agenda.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Tom. 

        22              (The State Board of Administration Agenda 

        23          was concluded.)

        24                              *   *   *



              DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE              8
                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Division of Bond Finance.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there is second? 

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         8              Without objection, it's approved.

         9              Item 2.

        10              MR. WATKINS:  Item 2 is a resolution 

        11          authorizing the competitive sale of up to 

        12          seventy-five million three hundred thousand 

        13          dollars in capital outlay bonds for school 

        14          construction.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        18              Without objection, it's approved.

        19              MR. WATKINS:  Item Number 3 is a report of 

        20          award on the competitive sale of 

        21          twenty-eight million one hundred forty thousand 

        22          dollar Board of Regents housing revenue bonds 

        23          for a student housing facility at the 

        24          University of Central Florida.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion, Item 3.


              DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE              9
                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         3              Without objection, it's approved.

         4              MR. WATKINS:  Thank you.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Ben.

         6              (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was 

         7          concluded.)

         8                              *   *   *



















                DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              10
                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Department of Revenue.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              Item 2.

         8              DR. ZINGALE:  Item 2, request approval for 

         9          authority to file with the Secretary of State, 

        10          amendments to Rules 12A-1, Sales and Use Tax; 

        11          12C-1, Corporate Income Tax. 

        12              These rule amendments repeal language 

        13          already contained in statutory provisions as 

        14          redundant or incorporate recent statutory 

        15          changes. 

        16              We did have a taxpayer file a rule 

        17          challenge to 051.  We worked it out in this 

        18          rule.  The taxpayer still has a problem.  We're 

        19          in litigation on that problem. 

        20              We have committed to work with the 

        21          taxpayer, take those issues to the Legislature.  

        22          It is primarily a disagreement, not in this 

        23          rule, but between the Department's 

        24          interpretation of the statute.  And it either 

        25          should be addressed in litigation or in 


                DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE              11
                  January 25, 2000
         1          statute. 

         2              Request approval.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         4              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         6              Without objection, it's approved.

         7              DR. ZINGALE:  Item Number 3, request 

         8          permission to submit the Department of 

         9          Revenue's strategic plan for 2000 through 2005 

        10          to the Executive Office of the Governor for 

        11          review.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        13              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        15              Without objection, it's approved.

        16              Thank you, Jim. 

        17              (The Department of Revenue Agenda was 

        18          concluded.)

        19                              *   *   *








              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             12
                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  State Board of Education.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Like to move the 

         3          minutes from -- for the November 9th meeting.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              MR. PIERSON:  Also -- also November 23rd --

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Sorry.

         7              MR. PIERSON:  -- and December 14th.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  2-- November -- 

         9          November 9th, November 23rd, and December 14th 

        10          meetings minutes.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion. 

        12              Is there a second?

        13              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        14              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        16              Without objection, it's approved.

        17              Item 2.

        18              MR. PIERSON:  Item 2 is a resolution 

        19          authorizing competitive sale of 

        20          seventy-five million three hundred thousand 

        21          State of Florida capital outlay bonds, 2000 

        22          Series A.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             13
                  January 25, 2000
         1              Without objection, it's approved.

         2              MR. PIERSON:  Item 3, Broward Community 

         3          College request for a special purpose center in 

         4          Weston.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

         7              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         9              Without objection, it's approved.

        10              MR. PIERSON:  Item 4, Broward Community 

        11          College request for a downtown center 

        12          designation.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        14              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded. 

        16              Without objection, it's approved.

        17              MR. PIERSON:  Item 5, Community -- Florida 

        18          Community College at Jacksonville, request for 

        19          a center.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion for 

        21          approval.

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        24              Without objection, it's approved.

        25              MR. PIERSON:  Item 6 is a report on teacher 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             14
                  January 25, 2000
         1          preparation.  We've had a request from 

         2          Dr. Gilmer, Florida State University, to speak 

         3          on this item.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Dr. Gilmer.

         5              DR. GILMER:  Good morning.

         6              My name is Dr. Penny Gilmore.  I'm a 

         7          professor of chemistry at Florida State 

         8          University.

         9              I'm a coprincipal investigator of a 

        10          National Science Foundation grant called the 

        11          Florida Collaborative for Excellence in Teacher 

        12          Preparation.

        13              This is a program to improve teacher 

        14          preparation throughout the whole state of 

        15          Florida in science and mathematics at the 

        16          secondary level.  So I represent our group. 

        17              We have eleven institutions, three are 

        18          community colleges; and eight are senior 

        19          institutions, all -- and all the senior 

        20          institutions have teacher preparation programs 

        21          in science and math. 

        22              We also have two other institutions that 

        23          are associates.  One's a senior institution 

        24          with a teacher preparation program, and the 

        25          other's the community college. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             15
                  January 25, 2000
         1              So, therefore, we represent really 

         2          nine senior institutions and four 

         3          community colleges.

         4              I have a brochure that I can give you for 

         5          this program.

         6              I also have left my business card.

         7              Basically, there's many things about the 

         8          program that I think are -- are very good, and 

         9          I'm glad that this committee has met to develop 

        10          this program. 

        11              For instance, I think that the broad ideas 

        12          of having a general education are very good for 

        13          all teachers.  Emphasizing assessment is 

        14          critical, including formative and summative 

        15          assessments; and having teachers learn to use 

        16          portfolios, not only for themselves, but for 

        17          their students.  They can -- students can 

        18          present what they know through portfolios. 

        19              Having social foundations, content 

        20          knowledge is critical in science and math, and 

        21          having the professional courses.

        22              So the broad ideas I think are good, but we 

        23          do have some suggestions.  And we had not 

        24          really known about this committee's report 

        25          until last week, and we represent all these 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             16
                  January 25, 2000
         1          institutions.  So we'd like to have an input.

         2              Some suggestions include under general 

         3          education.  For instance, in the science 

         4          courses, I think it's good that all teachers 

         5          would have these science courses, but there are 

         6          only 3 credit courses, which means it's only 

         7          the lecture portion of the -- the course, no 

         8          hands-on experience, the experiential part.  We 

         9          feel that's critical. 

        10              So maybe you can -- and to keep it to 

        11          12 hours, you could have three 4-hour courses 

        12          instead of four 3-hour courses.  So that's one 

        13          possibility.

        14              Also there might be some choices.  

        15          For instance, in the social sciences, it 

        16          prescribes exactly four.  But every teacher has 

        17          exactly the same thing.  It's almost like a 

        18          cookie cutter model. 

        19              But if they had some choices, still you 

        20          could keep it the four courses.  I think it's 

        21          important in social science.  I mean, you're -- 

        22          you're dealing with students who need that 

        23          social interaction and understanding things. 

        24              But having exactly the same four for every 

        25          teacher is a suggestion that you might have 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             17
                  January 25, 2000
         1          some choices.

         2              Under the content knowledge, one thing that 

         3          I think is very important is -- and I know this 

         4          is a broad overlook.  But one thing you might 

         5          do is have experiential courses, not just lab 

         6          courses that are prescribed courses, but to 

         7          have more open-ended opportunities for teachers 

         8          to do, like, in science or math, research or 

         9          experiential programs. 

        10              We have worked with the -- with the Florida 

        11          Department of Environmental Protection having 

        12          teachers having experiences in -- with the DEP 

        13          scientists.  And this has added tremendously.  

        14          This is both for the prospective and practicing 

        15          teachers working together, we have a program 

        16          called Co-Learners.

        17              In the field experience, you have the 

        18          teachers working for their entire undergraduate 

        19          program at exactly the same school.  I think 

        20          it's important that they work their whole 

        21          undergraduate program at a school, but I think 

        22          having an opportunity to work at a variety of 

        23          schools, maybe one with higher minority 

        24          population, others -- other types of 

        25          populations might be good.  So that's a 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             18
                  January 25, 2000
         1          suggestion that we have.

         2              Also I know on the internship, you 

         3          recommend at least 10 weeks, which I think is 

         4          appropriate, with the goal of going longer, 

         5          I think is appropriate. 

         6              But for interns to be able to afford a 

         7          whole extra year of undergraduate education, 

         8          paying might be good in your recommendations, 

         9          to include how they might be able to be paid 

        10          during that internship, because they'd be 

        11          teaching in a school.

        12              So that's a possibility. 

        13              And under professional knowledge, I did not 

        14          see any course in technology.  Maybe you 

        15          want -- and I think it would be good to have 

        16          technology incorporated in all courses. 

        17              At Florida State University, we're getting 

        18          to do this more and more, but I don't think all 

        19          places do.  And -- and I think it's important 

        20          that they learn that technology.  That's the 

        21          wave of the future.  So I think there needs to 

        22          be a program in that. 

        23              And I did not see any mention, although 

        24          maybe it's implied in the professional 

        25          knowledge, that teaching diverse populations, 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             19
                  January 25, 2000
         1          which I think is critical.  We work with -- of 

         2          our institutions, three are -- represent 

         3          minority institutions:  Florida A&M University, 

         4          Bethune-Cookman, and Florida International 

         5          University. 

         6              And -- and we have a growing minority 

         7          population.  We need to address that.  So I 

         8          think that needs to be part of the 

         9          recommendations. 

        10              And also with students with other 

        11          languages.  I did not see any mention of that 

        12          in the program.

        13              So those are suggestions that we have that 

        14          I would like to include in the record.

        15              Thank you.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We -- we 

        17          appreciate that.  And this does go to 

        18          rulemaking.  And you will have the 

        19          opportunity -- I think the 31st of this month, 

        20          there will be hearings throughout the state. 

        21              And I think one of -- is located here in 

        22          Tallahassee, and I think it would be very good 

        23          for you to let those people at the hearing 

        24          process hear your suggestions also.

        25              DR. GILMER:  Thank you.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             20
                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Thank you.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much, 

         3          Doctor.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And now we'd like 

         5          to have a presentation on the committee's 

         6          recommendations, Governor.

         7              MR. PIERSON:  And presenting will be Dr. -- 

         8          David Ashburn, the Director of Division of 

         9          Human Resource Development.

        10              MR. ASHBURN:  Good morning.  I think we 

        11          have our technology in order, I hope.

        12              Governor and Cabinet, I'd like to present 

        13          the survey results for the Teacher Preparation, 

        14          and also a -- recommendations from the Teacher 

        15          Preparation Committee.

        16              Preparing tomorrow's teachers to meet the 

        17          needs of Florida's diverse student population 

        18          is, of course, a very major challenge facing 

        19          teacher preparation programs for the 

        20          21st century.

        21              Annually, about 6,000 plus teachers are 

        22          graduated from Florida's 29, both public and 

        23          private institutions, with teacher approved -- 

        24          teacher approved preparation programs, 

        25          statewide approved programs.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             21
                  January 25, 2000
         1              The purpose of our presentation is 

         2          two-fold:  First, to report the recommendations 

         3          of the Teacher Preparation Program Committee, 

         4          which was mandated by the State -- by the State 

         5          Legislature.  And also to present the results 

         6          of the customer satisfaction survey.

         7              If you understand the importance of this, 

         8          the -- the -- and I'm sure you do -- the 

         9          Legislature felt that the establishment of a 

        10          committee would be very important in the 

        11          process of -- of determining the needs of our 

        12          teacher preparation programs. 

        13              Also they felt that a survey of teachers 

        14          who had just been through the teacher prep 

        15          programs in 1997-98, and actually would be 

        16          teaching in 98-99, a survey of them to 

        17          determine their feelings about what they had 

        18          received in teacher prep programs, as well as 

        19          their principals, had these -- these teachers 

        20          in the programs, would be important.

        21              Keep in mind that these two activities were 

        22          done simultaneously.  However, the satisfaction 

        23          surveys are pretty much in accord with the 

        24          recommendations of the committee.

        25              You have a chart that I have before you 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             22
                  January 25, 2000
         1          there, and also I believe have copies of this 

         2          chart.  If you would look at the right-hand 

         3          corner of that, you'll see in a -- in the 

         4          assessment area, there was con-- there were 

         5          concerns. 

         6              There are actually concerns in five areas:  

         7          Assessment, subject matter, the role of the 

         8          teacher, the technology, and classroom 

         9          management. 

        10              The area of assessment, the survey -- and 

        11          by the way, as you look at the chart, we're 

        12          talking about the two bottom areas of the 

        13          survey in terms of -- of quality. 

        14              In the teacher survey, there were four 

        15          areas:  Very well prepared, well prepared, 

        16          minimally prepared, not prepared; and in the 

        17          principal survey, it was very strong, strong, 

        18          adequate, and weak.

        19              So in the area of assessment, 75 percent of 

        20          the teachers report minimal to no preparation 

        21          in assessment for State exams such as FCAT.

        22              Thirty-four percent of the principals 

        23          report that their teacher performance levels 

        24          were either adequate or weak.  Those are the 

        25          two lowest levels. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             23
                  January 25, 2000
         1              In the area of subject matter -- that's in 

         2          the left side of the -- your chart there -- 

         3          45 percent of the teachers reported feeling 

         4          inadequately prepared for -- in the knowledge 

         5          of the Sunshine State Standards.  Of course, 

         6          these standards are adopted statewide, and are 

         7          expected to be taught to all of our students. 

         8              Forty-seven percent of the principals 

         9          report low levels of performance on the part of 

        10          those first-year teachers.

        11              In the middle of the chart, you'll see 

        12          the -- to the left side, role of the teacher, 

        13          the ability to work with families.  Obviously 

        14          in this day and time, it's extremely important 

        15          that our teachers are prepared to work with the 

        16          families and with the -- actually with the 

        17          community in which the students come.

        18              You'll notice that 47 percent of the 

        19          teachers report minimal to no preparation in 

        20          terms of how they are to work with families. 

        21              Thirty-four percent of the principals 

        22          report adequate to weak preparation on the part 

        23          of those teachers.

        24              If you look to the bottom, you'll see in 

        25          terms of technology, the ability to use 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             24
                  January 25, 2000
         1          technology in the classroom, 43 percent of the 

         2          teachers report low levels of preparedness; 

         3          47 percent of principals report adequate to 

         4          weak performance in terms of the teachers out 

         5          of the teacher prep programs.

         6              Classroom management, that's the ability 

         7          obviously to manage the classroom, manage 

         8          student behavior.

         9              Forty-two percent of the teachers report 

        10          low levels of preparedness, and 31 percent of 

        11          the principals rate teachers' performance as 

        12          adequate to weak.

        13              Overall, I should point out, the first-year 

        14          teachers generally felt satisfied with their 

        15          preparation, and the principals generally felt 

        16          satisfied with their teachers' performance. 

        17              Those are the five areas in which there was 

        18          the most concern, however.

        19              These five areas are also targeted for 

        20          improvement in the Teacher Prep Program 

        21          Committee recommendations.

        22              The Teacher Prep Program Committee, as I 

        23          said earlier, was mandated by the Legislature, 

        24          1999 Legislature.  This committee was comprised 

        25          of key stakeholders. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             25
                  January 25, 2000
         1              In fact, I -- you have a brochure, 

         2          I believe, on the -- on the committee report.  

         3          On pages 6 and 7, you'll notice a list of those 

         4          committee members.  They represent deans of 

         5          both public and private institutions; they 

         6          represent college univ-- and university 

         7          presidents, both public and private; community 

         8          college presidents; school district 

         9          superintendents; teachers; principals; and 

        10          faculty of -- of teacher prep programs. 

        11              So we have a very -- a good cross-section 

        12          of individuals to give us input into this 

        13          process.

        14              Today, we also have with us 

        15          Dr. Bill Proctor, who's President of 

        16          Flagler College, in our audience who will give 

        17          a supporting statement a little later. 

        18              We also have Mrs. Stephanie King -- you've 

        19          heard her name called already this morning, 

        20          who's our Florida Teacher of the Year for 

        21          2000 -- and she will also be bringing you some 

        22          additional remarks a little later.

        23              The purpose of this Teacher Prep Program 

        24          Committee, as identified by the Legislature, 

        25          was to establish a core curricula for 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             26
                  January 25, 2000
         1          State-approved teacher education programs.  And 

         2          I want to be sure we keep that in mind as we're 

         3          talking here, as we're talking specifically 

         4          about teacher prep programs.

         5              There will be other ways that -- that 

         6          teachers will become capable and -- and 

         7          empowered to teach through alternative 

         8          education programs and the like. 

         9              But we're talking about the formal process 

        10          through which we have established for teachers 

        11          to go through in order to be prepared to teach 

        12          in our public schools. 

        13              This core curricula is to focus, according 

        14          to the Legislature, on the knowledge, skills, 

        15          and abilities essential to instruction in the 

        16          Sunshine State Standards, with clear emphasis 

        17          on the importance of reading at all grade 

        18          levels.  And you'll see this as we present this 

        19          this morning.

        20              The State Board, you, are charged with 

        21          receiving this report, and then we will develop 

        22          rules based on this particular report.  And 

        23          ultimately, you are going to be asked to adopt 

        24          rules to carry out the recommendations.

        25              We go to the core curricular 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             27
                  January 25, 2000
         1          recommendations.  They fall into two 

         2          categories:  Student recommendations, and 

         3          program recommendations. 

         4              First, we will go to the core curriculum 

         5          recommendations for the students to enter the 

         6          program. 

         7              For entry into a teacher prep program, the 

         8          committee is recommending that every student 

         9          that enters the teacher prep program should 

        10          have past the CLAST.  That's the College Level 

        11          Academic Skills Test.

        12              It's also recommended to have a 2.5 grade 

        13          point average in the courses that they had 

        14          prior to the teacher prep program.

        15              In the core curricular areas, it also 

        16          recommended that there be emphasis on general 

        17          knowledge, content knowledge, professional 

        18          knowledge, methodology, and internship.  And 

        19          I'll talk more specifically about each of 

        20          these.

        21              In the general recommendations for a sound 

        22          liberal arts background, it was mentioned 

        23          earlier that we have specified courses.  It was 

        24          felt that for teacher prep programs, student -- 

        25          students entering and -- and going through 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             28
                  January 25, 2000
         1          those programs should have a very sound 

         2          background in terms of the -- the content 

         3          knowledge that will be expected, by the way, 

         4          for instruction in the Sunshine State 

         5          Standards. 

         6              I will -- you'll hear me say Sunshine State 

         7          Standards probably a number of times today.  

         8          But the importance of this is that these are 

         9          what our students are expected to accomplish, 

        10          to achieve in, when they go through the K-12 

        11          program. 

        12              In order for student teachers to be able to 

        13          teach in these areas, they need to have a very 

        14          sound background in this area, and that's the 

        15          reason you'll see a rigorous curriculum for 

        16          them.

        17              In the area of communications, it -- the 

        18          committee has recommended 9 semester hours 

        19          total, that's 6 hours in English, and 3 hours 

        20          in speech.  And in the English area, there 

        21          would be emphasis on writing and literature.

        22              In the science area, they're recommending 

        23          12 semester hours total, and they've had these 

        24          broken out by 3 hours in physics, 3 hours in 

        25          earth science, 3 hours in chemistry, and 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             29
                  January 25, 2000
         1          3 hours in biology. 

         2              There was much discussion about the rigor 

         3          of these courses before they were adopted. 

         4              The math area, 9 semester hours, and you'll 

         5          notice there's 6 hours at the college algebra 

         6          and above level.  In addition, 3 hours in 

         7          geometry.

         8              In the social sciences area, they requested 

         9          that there be 15 semester hours total, 3 hours 

        10          in world geography, 3 hours in world history, 

        11          3 hours in American history, 3 hours in 

        12          economics, 3 hours in basic psychology. 

        13              And then in the area of humanities, 

        14          6 semester total hours, 3 hours in philosophy 

        15          in which there would be embedded a logic 

        16          portion, and 3 hours in fine arts.

        17              We -- the committee believes that this will 

        18          provide a very strong background for teachers 

        19          in terms of a basic education program that they 

        20          would need for instructing in a K-12 program.

        21              The know-- in the area of knowledge of 

        22          content recommendations, there -- they 

        23          requested there be substantial knowledge in the 

        24          content area, and there be a very strong 

        25          understanding of Sunshine State Standards.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             30
                  January 25, 2000
         1              There would be nothing to prohibit the 

         2          experimental -- or experiential activities that 

         3          was discussed earlier today.  This could be 

         4          embedded into those programs we believe.

         5              Professional knowledge recommendations, 

         6          skills necessary to promote learning in the 

         7          areas of reading literacy acquisition, safe 

         8          learning environment, assessment, growth and 

         9          development, and sociological foundations.  And 

        10          I will speak to each of those.

        11              In the area of professional knowledge, in 

        12          the area of reading literacy acquisition, the 

        13          early -- in early childhood and elementary 

        14          education, it was requested that we have 

        15          12 hours in that area.  This would center 

        16          around the topics that you see listed on the 

        17          screen:  Assessment, prescription, and 

        18          instruction in terms of reading. 

        19              Again, this is at the elementary and early 

        20          childhood levels.  What we're saying is that 

        21          there needs to be very strong emphasis on 

        22          diagnosing students' needs in the areas of 

        23          reading and allowing them certain prescriptions 

        24          for those needs that they have.

        25              Reading across the content areas, in other 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             31
                  January 25, 2000
         1          words, going beyond just the basics of reading, 

         2          but being able to read in all of the subject 

         3          areas. 

         4              Children's literature would be a portion of 

         5          this 12 hours, foundations of reading would be 

         6          included, and primary and intermediate reading 

         7          would be in that area.

         8              Also at the secondary level, currently 

         9          there is no requirement for any reading 

        10          instruction for secondary instructor.  It's 

        11          been recommended that if we're going to make 

        12          sure that reading is an important area of 

        13          instruction throughout the curriculum, that 

        14          secondary teachers also be prepared. 

        15              And so they've asked for 3 hours in the 

        16          areas of assessment of reading problems and 

        17          content area strategies.

        18              In the area of safe learning environment, 

        19          the committee has recommended 3 hours, and this 

        20          would include classroom management.  Notice 

        21          that was one of the areas in which there was 

        22          weakness felt on the part of the new teachers. 

        23              School safety; educational law, so they 

        24          know their rights and the rights of the 

        25          students; and ethical behavior, how students 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             32
                  January 25, 2000
         1          should be treated.

         2              Human development and learning under 

         3          professional knowledge, 3 hours they're 

         4          recommending.  Behavior and cognition would be 

         5          a portion of that.  And memory and learning and 

         6          brain research. 

         7              Basically this whole idea of learning how 

         8          students learn, and being able to provide 

         9          instruction in the -- in such a way that 

        10          students would be -- it would be easier for the 

        11          students to comprehend and develop the skills 

        12          necessary for progression from one grade to 

        13          another.

        14              In the area of assessment, they've 

        15          recommended 3 hours to include a number of 

        16          things, primarily that they prepare students 

        17          for the Sunshine State Standards, FCAT 

        18          assessments, and other State assessments. 

        19              Content measured by the State exams, 

        20          reading and interpreting data.  If teachers are 

        21          going to be able to diagnose the problems of -- 

        22          of students in the area of -- of assessment, 

        23          they need to be able to know how to interpret 

        24          the data they receive on the statewide exams; 

        25          understand the grading systems that exist both 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             33
                  January 25, 2000
         1          locally and statewide; alternative and 

         2          authentic assessments; knowing how to diagnose 

         3          both in terms of using alternative and 

         4          authentic assessments. 

         5              We have a number of students, it was 

         6          alluded to earlier, who are not -- or who have 

         7          special needs, and teachers need to be able to 

         8          understand those needs and be able to assess in 

         9          an alternative way to meet the needs of those 

        10          particular students.

        11              They should understand testing and 

        12          assessment terminology goes along again with 

        13          understanding the data they receive.  And the 

        14          relationships between the standards -- 

        15          statewide -- Sunshine State Standards, the 

        16          assessments, the outcomes that are expected, 

        17          and the performance that is expected on each of 

        18          those particular outcomes.

        19              The area of professional knowledge 

        20          continues recommendations, sociological 

        21          foundations of education, the principles -- 

        22          focus should be on sociological foundations.  

        23          In other words, in understanding context in 

        24          which education exists. 

        25              You'll notice there are no credit hours on 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             34
                  January 25, 2000
         1          that.  That could be interspersed throughout 

         2          the curriculum. 

         3              In the area of methodology, they should 

         4          have the skills necessary to impart knowledge, 

         5          a variety of instructional strategies, again, 

         6          for the -- the diverse population they will be 

         7          receiving in Florida. 

         8              About -- there are three states that 

         9          have -- or four that have tremendous diverse 

        10          populations, Florida is one of them.  And we 

        11          need to make sure that our diverse population 

        12          is -- is understood and appropriate instruction 

        13          is -- is directed towards the needs of those 

        14          students. 

        15              The area of the use of appropriate 

        16          technology, it was -- it was stated earlier 

        17          that we didn't have a course or a number of 

        18          hours for this.  This was discussed by the 

        19          committee.  The committee came up with the 

        20          recommendation that they felt that technology 

        21          really should be interspersed throughout the 

        22          curriculum received during a -- a college 

        23          program. 

        24              And there should be specific emphasis in 

        25          those programs in terms of teaching, using 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             35
                  January 25, 2000
         1          technology. 

         2              So technology is a very important part, and 

         3          should be an important part of all course -- 

         4          courses.

         5              Again, the effective teaching strategies 

         6          for diverse population cannot be 

         7          overemphasized, and it is on -- in the report.  

         8          I understood earlier it was overlooked. 

         9              But on page 12 of the report, it --

        10              (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)  

        11              MR. ASHBURN:  -- does mention the diverse 

        12          populations, including limited English 

        13          proficient students as well.

        14              In terms of internship, the skills 

        15          necessary to effectively direct and facilitate 

        16          student learning, an important part of this.  

        17          There was much discussion about the length of 

        18          an internship program.  It was alluded to 

        19          earlier that there should be something like a 

        20          year-long internship. 

        21              Actually the committee came down with 

        22          10 weeks as a minimal program for an 

        23          internship.  One of the recommendations did 

        24          include an extension to a year-long program for 

        25          those institutions that would desire to do so.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             36
                  January 25, 2000
         1              The idea of it being in one school for a 

         2          full year, or for a -- multiple areas within 

         3          the school, or different schools, that was also 

         4          argued and debated.  They came up with a full 

         5          year as -- as probably the best possible 

         6          because that would give them a length --

         7              (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)

         8              MR. ASHBURN:  -- of time for staying in the 

         9          same school. 

        10              However, that's not a firm commitment.  

        11          That was something put in the -- the committee 

        12          to just give direction to the -- the university 

        13          system.

        14              Also the internship should be supervised by 

        15          high performing educators.  Those educators in 

        16          the school system, in the -- in the 

        17          universities and colleges should have the 

        18          skills necessary for -- as an instructor as 

        19          well.  That's really what that is --

        20              (Secretary Harris exited the room.)

        21              MR. ASHBURN:  -- speaking to. 

        22              There should be experiences of progressive 

        23          responsibility.  In other words, teachers would 

        24          not go in and be given the entire load of -- or 

        25          teacher load when they enter a -- an 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             37
                  January 25, 2000
         1          internship, but they should be allowed to 

         2          gradually take over until they're -- they're 

         3          competent in all areas.

         4              And then the demonstration of the educator 

         5          accomplished practices.  These are practices 

         6          that you approve as a State Board, and we're 

         7          saying that the internship should emphasize 

         8          these throughout all of their activities that 

         9          are experiential should emphasize these.

        10              In terms of program completion 

        11          recommendations, the requirements incentives 

        12          also were very important in our 

        13          recommendations.  They said they should pass 

        14          the subject area exam, pass the professional 

        15          knowledge exam, all of this before they 

        16          complete the program. 

        17              Now, some colleges and universities do that 

        18          already.  Others don't.  Remember, we're 

        19          talking about both public and private 

        20          institutions that would have a State approved 

        21          teacher prep program.  And we do have 29 of 

        22          those in this state. 

        23              So this does not just apply to public 

        24          universities, it would apply to both private 

        25          universities who want to be State approved in 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             38
                  January 25, 2000
         1          terms of their teacher prep program.

         2              They should establish eligibility for a 

         3          professional level certificate.  And we feel 

         4          that the teachers who go through these programs 

         5          should earn some State funded bonus in terms of 

         6          probably entering the -- the system at a higher 

         7          level in terms of their salary, as opposed to a 

         8          teacher who did not go through one of these 

         9          special rigorous teacher prep programs.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Jack, are you -- so you're 

        11          recommending that -- that the -- the current 

        12          way of receiving a teacher's certificate and 

        13          gaining a degree would still apply, but this --

        14              (Secretary Harris entered the room.)

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- would be in addition to? 

        16              MR. ASHBURN:  No, sir.  It would apply for 

        17          those that didn't have a teac-- a State 

        18          approved program. 

        19              But every program, the 29 that now are 

        20          currently approved by the State, would have 

        21          this program --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay. 

        23              MR. ASHBURN:  -- and they would not be 

        24          approved unless they had this rigorous program. 

        25              However, if someone came from a university 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             39
                  January 25, 2000
         1          that was not under this, there would be 

         2          alternative ways that they could receive --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Like another univ--

         4              MR. ASHBURN:  -- certification.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- another state or --

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Another state.

         7              MR. ASHBURN:  Yes.  That's correct. 

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

         9              MR. ASHBURN:  That's correct.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We -- we only 

        11          produce -- well, less than half of the teachers 

        12          that we need here in Florida.  So there's a lot 

        13          of other states that we're the recipient of 

        14          their education.

        15              MR. ASHBURN:  And that's been a big bone 

        16          of -- of contention, if you want, because many 

        17          people do have concerns with this, because it 

        18          is very rigorous, and we feel that the 

        19          committee is taking a bold step here to say, 

        20          Florida's going to be on the cutting edge in 

        21          terms of teacher prep programs, and they're 

        22          going to be rigorous enough that we do produce 

        23          top quality educators for the State of Florida.

        24              The general recommendations -- and I -- I 

        25          want to point out that this particular slide -- 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             40
                  January 25, 2000
         1          if I have the right one up there -- does have 

         2          encouraged. 

         3              These that you'll see now are not what the 

         4          committee said you have to do to have a teacher 

         5          prep program, but they are encouraged to do the 

         6          following things in terms of -- of innovations.

         7              First of all, provide innovative field 

         8          experiences in -- and internships, establish 

         9          charter teacher preparation programs.  The idea 

        10          here was in some areas, there may be some 

        11          initiatives that would go far beyond what we 

        12          have here, and --

        13              (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 

        14          room.)

        15              MR. ASHBURN:  -- they want to charter a 

        16          special kind of program.  We need to look at 

        17          that as a possibility for them.

        18              Expand partnerships among school districts, 

        19          community colleges, and universities.  This has 

        20          been encouraged over and over again.  We never 

        21          feel that we have enough of that.  We need to  

        22          continue to do that, strengthen that, so that 

        23          all parties are a part of this process, and 

        24          we're all working together for the good of the 

        25          students in the K-12 program. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             41
                  January 25, 2000
         1              Also prepare professional development plans 

         2          for students.  That's professional development 

         3          plans for -- for the people leaving the teacher 

         4          prep program. 

         5              In other words, as they leave, all of -- 

         6          every one of us has some area in which we can 

         7          improve.  This would say they know up-front 

         8          where they need to improve.  And as they enter 

         9          the profession, they begin a plan to actually 

        10          improve even better than they were when they 

        11          graduated.

        12              Recommendations for quality assurance, 

        13          rigorous assessment during the -- the program, 

        14          continuous quality improvement for the teacher 

        15          prep programs, model competency assessment 

        16          systems. 

        17              In fact, they -- they -- we recommend that 

        18          they be the -- on the forefront of -- of 

        19          providing competency assessments, direct -- in 

        20          other words, provide the leadership.

        21              Quality assurance through program approval 

        22          process.  And, of course, we have that in 

        23          place.  We encourage as many other institutions 

        24          that would like to go through this to do so.

        25              The next few slides will sort of give you a 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             42
                  January 25, 2000
         1          summary of what the new parts of -- of this 

         2          are.  Now, I've given you a great deal of 

         3          detail.  But -- and -- and I hope this is not 

         4          confusing. 

         5              But if you look at these last -- these are 

         6          the things that are actually new.  A lot of 

         7          these things are in the program now, but these 

         8          are brand new.

         9              Entry into the -- the teacher prep program.  

        10          Student would pass the class.  That would be 

        11          required.  That's new.  That's not currently 

        12          required of all teacher prep programs that are 

        13          approved by the State.

        14              Demonstration of mastery of new content 

        15          standards.  And that's the new standards 

        16          that -- that you have approved for teachers.

        17              For teacher preparation programs, 

        18          establishment of a prescribed generally ed 

        19          course of study.  That's what we went over when 

        20          we talked about the actual courses that they 

        21          would have to have in the areas of math and 

        22          science and so forth.

        23              Establishment of specified professional 

        24          knowledge course requirements.  This again 

        25          would apply to all of teacher prep programs 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             43
                  January 25, 2000
         1          approved by the State.

         2              Courses and experiences to meet limited 

         3          English proficient legal requirements.  Make 

         4          sure that when they finish their teacher prep 

         5          program, they're qualified to teach students 

         6          with limited English proficiency, and they 

         7          don't have to have the current in-service 

         8          program that is required if they have not.

         9              Ten-week minimum internship would be an -- 

        10          an absolute.

        11              As far as the -- again, the program 

        12          completion requirements, pass the subject area 

        13          and professional knowledge exams before they 

        14          leave the teacher prep program.  In other 

        15          words, before they're -- they're given that 

        16          status.

        17              And, again, State funded bonuses for 

        18          approved program graduates.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  What's the amount of -- 

        20          what's -- what's the recommended size of the 

        21          bonus? 

        22              MR. ASHBURN:  It's been tossed around at 

        23          5 percent above the base pay at least.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would they have to teach -- 

        25              MR. ASHBURN:  They didn't really come up 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             44
                  January 25, 2000
         1          with a specific amount or whatever.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  They would have to 

         3          teach.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

         5              MR. ASHBURN:  Okay? 

         6              And then in closing, I'd like to announce 

         7          to you that we do have planned for 

         8          January the 31st, five regional meetings for 

         9          input into this report from the public.  And 

        10          this is all stakeholders.  This has been sent 

        11          out to the Colleges of Education, District 

        12          school superintendents have been apprised of 

        13          these. 

        14              And anyone who has any kind of additional 

        15          recommendations as were given here this morning 

        16          may do so at these meetings.  You have those 

        17          listed, I believe, for you:  Panama City, 

        18          Tallahassee, Miami, Orlando, and Largo.

        19              We -- we would encourage people to attend 

        20          these, and to provide some input to us.

        21              At this time, I'd like to ask -- and I'll 

        22          ask them to just follow one another, if 

        23          Mrs. Stephanie King will come forward as 

        24          Florida's Teacher of the Year for 2000, give 

        25          some supporting remarks; followed by 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             45
                  January 25, 2000
         1          Dr. Bill Proctor, who's President of 

         2          Flagler College.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Both of which 

         4          served on the committee, I might mention.

         5              MR. ASHBURN:  Thank you.

         6              MS. GOODSON:  I'm not one of the speakers.  

         7          But we've had a complaint we can't hear.  So 

         8          I'm moving the mic slightly.

         9              Sorry.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well done.

        11              You go, girl.

        12              MS. KING:  Can you hear? 

        13              We have a rule in my classroom, if you 

        14          can't, you raise your hand, you don't throw 

        15          things.

        16              MS. GOODSON:  It's not in here, it's on the 

        17          Internet. 

        18              MS. KING:  Oh, okay.  Very good.

        19              MS. GOODSON:  -- I'll let you know.

        20              MS. KING:  It's a pleasure to --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome back.

        22              MS. KING:  -- address you today, and to 

        23          have had the honor to participate in discussing 

        24          teacher preparation. 

        25              As you know, approximately 30 percent of 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             46
                  January 25, 2000
         1          our graduates in teacher preparation stop 

         2          teaching after the first three years; and in 

         3          some areas, it's up to 50 percent. 

         4              We're pleased to try to help to develop a 

         5          program that will do two things:  One, be 

         6          certain that our teachers feel very well 

         7          prepared. 

         8              I noticed in the statistics that you've 

         9          heard that it's often the teachers who begin 

        10          teaching that say they want more, they need 

        11          more, they're willing to do more. 

        12              And we think that this program provides 

        13          that.

        14              The second thing is that all of us who 

        15          teach know that knowledge is critical to our 

        16          field, and we -- we pride ourselves on our 

        17          knowledge, and that this program supports the 

        18          need for being well versed in a -- a broad area 

        19          of subject matter.  It's critical. 

        20              Particularly the new research that 

        21          indicates that interdisciplinary studies are 

        22          more powerful, and that our ability to draw, 

        23          regardless of what subject we teach, from the 

        24          wide base of human knowledge makes such a 

        25          program, we think, very, very powerful.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             47
                  January 25, 2000
         1              And the last item I want to speak to is the 

         2          issue of technology and the discussion of 

         3          lecture versus hands-on activities in any 

         4          particular university course. 

         5              What we know from the research is teachers 

         6          tend to teach in the ways that they have been 

         7          taught.  And the more that universities infuse 

         8          technology in every course in which they train 

         9          teachers, the more that they mix lecture with 

        10          hands-on activity and experiential knowledge, 

        11          the greater the tendency will be that the 

        12          teachers who are trained by such programs will 

        13          use those techniques with their students.

        14              So we're hopeful that such a program will 

        15          help us to move in those directions.

        16              So when you hear the word "teacher," it'll 

        17          be a -- a word of respect and honor, as it 

        18          should be.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Stephanie, can I ask you a 

        20          question? 

        21              MS. KING:  Certainly.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  When you all were 

        23          deliberating, did you -- was there a discussion 

        24          about these suggested new requirements adding 

        25          time to graduate in adding additional --


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             48
                  January 25, 2000
         1              MS. KING:  Absolutely.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- a rigorous -- a rigorous 

         3          quality that might --

         4              MS. KING:  -- make it --

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- excuse -- 

         6              MS. KING:  -- harder to get teachers? 

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  There could be a -- 

         8          a balance question of there's a -- at least we 

         9          read about a pending --

        10              MS. KING:  Teacher shortage.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- teacher shortage.

        12              MS. KING:  Yes.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So how -- how did you all 

        14          deal with that issue? 

        15              MS. KING:  Well, we discussed it at length.  

        16          And we want to say this:  If this State is 

        17          committed to outstanding education, then you 

        18          need to have skilled practitioners. 

        19              And one of the things that's a separate 

        20          task force to address is the issue of how do 

        21          you keep skilled practitioners working in our 

        22          schools. 

        23              And we -- we are between the rock and the 

        24          hard place.  What we've noticed is, as women 

        25          and minorities and skilled people across the 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             49
                  January 25, 2000
         1          expanding economy --

         2              (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 

         3          room.)

         4              MS. KING:   -- have greater options, the 

         5          only reason that you -- we're going to get 

         6          outstanding people in our classroom is by 

         7          dealing with the work situation. 

         8              And that we decided was a separate issue.  

         9          We had been charged with the job of writing a 

        10          prescription for what would produce quality 

        11          teachers in our classroom. 

        12              And we would love, I'm sure, many of us, to 

        13          have the other charge as well, to look at the 

        14          workplace and see what it would take to keep 

        15          high quality people continually performing at 

        16          the level of excellence that this state needs 

        17          and deserves.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thanks.

        19              MS. KING:  Thank you.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Thank you.

        21              Dr. Proctor. 

        22              DR. PROCTOR:  Good morning, Mr. Governor, 

        23          members --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good morning.

        25              DR. PROCTOR:  -- of the Board. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             50
                  January 25, 2000
         1              I have no need to impose on your time, 

         2          other than to make just two brief comments, if 

         3          I may. 

         4              I was on the subcommittee that dealt with 

         5          the general education core requirements.  And 

         6          what I want to assure you is that every course 

         7          listed was subject to considerable debate. 

         8              I suppose if you'd had another committee, 

         9          you might have had a slightly different course 

        10          here or there.  But each one was deliberated at 

        11          some length. 

        12              And with respect to the science and math 

        13          requirements, I was particularly impressed with 

        14          the comments of the teachers who were on the 

        15          committee and their advocacy for those courses. 

        16              My other comment has to do with the 

        17          question of the absence of technology, ESOL and 

        18          ESE in this general education core. 

        19              Admittedly, they are not there, because 

        20          this is a general education core.  But you will 

        21          find them throughout the report.  And 

        22          particularly, you will find them embedded in 

        23          the accomplished practices.

        24              And ESOL runs through the accomplished 

        25          practices, as does the use of technology.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             51
                  January 25, 2000
         1              So in most of our programs, I know in ours, 

         2          we used to have a course in technology.  That 

         3          became somewhat outdated, because in most of 

         4          our courses now, we have to infuse technology 

         5          throughout a number of the courses.  So having 

         6          a single course has kind of passed as a 

         7          procedure.

         8              Other than that, Mr. Governor, unless there 

         9          are questions, I'll be glad to respond.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Thank you, Doctor.

        12              I'd like to move approval to move this 

        13          forward for rulemaking, Governor.

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  May I ask a couple of 

        15          questions?

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  Are we at the point -- 

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Sure.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  Could I ask:  On all of 

        21          the suggestions, which I appreciate the 

        22          Department doing this analysis, what assurances 

        23          are we going to have that the Colleges of 

        24          Education are -- are going to implement these 

        25          recommended changes? 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             52
                  January 25, 2000
         1              DR. PROCTOR:  Mr. Nelson, could I get a 

         2          clarification on that? 

         3              There are those that will be required if 

         4          they're going to be State approval, and then 

         5          there are those that are suggested.

         6              Are you referring specifically to the 

         7          suggestions, or to -- the requirements will 

         8          have to be followed if they're going to achieve 

         9          State approval?

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  I'm -- I'm talking about 

        11          the report that we've just heard --

        12              DR. PROCTOR:  Yes, sir.

        13              TREASURER NELSON:  -- which has a -- a 

        14          number of excellent suggestions.

        15              DR. PROCTOR:  At the conclusion of it, yes.

        16              TREASURER NELSON:  That's correct.

        17              DR. PROCTOR:  Right.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  What -- how -- how are 

        19          we going to make sure that the Colleges of 

        20          Education implement these recommendations? 

        21              DR. PROCTOR:  The suggestions. 

        22              Well, of course, you could -- ultimately 

        23          you could embed them in the State approval 

        24          process as a matter of the criteria if you 

        25          wanted. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             53
                  January 25, 2000
         1              At this time, I -- I personally don't think 

         2          that's necessary, because most of the colleges 

         3          of which I'm familiar are proceeding along that 

         4          line. 

         5              I can cite in our own case, we have not a 

         6          formal, but a very informal and close working  

         7          relationship with the Florida School for the 

         8          Deaf and Blind.

         9              A number of the schools are -- 

        10          Dean Lafferty has several relationships set up 

        11          with -- with local high schools. 

        12              But if there's a suggestion there that you 

        13          think is particularly important, then it could 

        14          be embodied in the approval process as a 

        15          criteria.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, I think the 

        17          answer to your question is that when, in fact, 

        18          this rule is passed, it -- for State 

        19          institutions, it will be what is set as the 

        20          curriculum requirements for education. 

        21              The private schools, which Dr. Proctor is 

        22          the president of, gets to make a choice on 

        23          whether they'd like to do it or not. 

        24              But as he says, our approval requirement 

        25          that would go through as the Department of 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             54
                  January 25, 2000
         1          Education approves schools for education, that 

         2          could well make a difference in whether they're 

         3          approved or not.

         4              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, I think it's a 

         5          step in the right direction.  But I think in 

         6          the past, we've seen, as in many, many reports, 

         7          they go on the shelf, and they don't get 

         8          attended to. 

         9              Let me ask a -- a question of the 

        10          Department, either of you, Tom, or -- or 

        11          perhaps one of your other representatives.

        12              It's my understanding that Florida 

        13          presently is recruiting a very high percentage 

        14          of its teachers from out of state so that maybe 

        15          65, 70 percent of the teachers are coming in 

        16          from out of state.

        17              Will the higher standards that we're trying 

        18          to incorporate in the Colleges of Education 

        19          here in the state of Florida, will those higher 

        20          standards also be required of the out of state 

        21          teachers that we are going to be recruiting 

        22          into Florida? 

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, the 

        24          standards for the -- the teaching prep college 

        25          courses that are given by schools that are 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             55
                  January 25, 2000
         1          out of state obviously are going to be whatever 

         2          those schools choose to have, and whatever 

         3          those states require of them. 

         4              But we will be bringing to the Legislature, 

         5          and I will be basically announcing today, the 

         6          new -- what we are recommending for teacher 

         7          certification. 

         8              That is the method by which we will be 

         9          setting the expectations and the measurement of 

        10          the expectations for teachers, not only from 

        11          Florida, through these rigorous programs that 

        12          we're recommending, but also for those teachers 

        13          that do come from other places that are 

        14          recruited to come to Florida.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, may --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, sir.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  -- I ask another 

        18          question? 

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, absolutely.

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  The committee 

        21          recommended that the College of Education 

        22          should provide more courses and field 

        23          experiences that include the use of technology 

        24          in the classroom, and I commend you for that.

        25              Who is going to ensure that the College of 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             56
                  January 25, 2000
         1          Education -- the Colleges of Education are 

         2          infusing the use of instructional technology 

         3          more into their courses? 

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, when you go 

         5          through the process of being accredited by the 

         6          Department of Education, there is a visit, 

         7          there's a measurement, and we are also required 

         8          under the A+ plan to include technology in 

         9          teacher certification. 

        10              So they're going to get it two ways:  One 

        11          in the method by which we look at the -- at the 

        12          schools that are teaching education, to see to 

        13          it that they are embedded. 

        14              The second thing is that when, in fact, 

        15          they come in for certification, part of their 

        16          certification requirement will be -- technology 

        17          is included in that certification exam.

        18              So you're going to get it from -- from both 

        19          directions.

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Did the gentleman 

        21          there have something you wanted to add? 

        22              MR. ASHBURN:  There was another comment  

        23          made back here that you might want to be aware 

        24          of, and that is that one of the teacher prep 

        25          processes is that those teachers that are 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             57
                  January 25, 2000
         1          prepared in our institutions, in order to 

         2          continue as teacher prep institutions, have to 

         3          have 90 percent of their people who are 

         4          employed eligible for reemployment. 

         5              In other words, when they get into the 

         6          field, 90 percent of those people in the field 

         7          that come out of these programs need to be 

         8          either asked to return -- they don't have to be 

         9          reemployed -- but they have to be eligible for 

        10          reemployment. 

        11              And that's, again, an attempt to try to -- 

        12          to move that -- that bar up a little bit.

        13              TREASURER NELSON:  You cited in this 

        14          report, there was a '97 report by the College 

        15          of Education deans that indicated that many of 

        16          the colleges were equipped with outdated 

        17          instructional technology.  So what you see then 

        18          is this report being implemented to -- to 

        19          change that.

        20              And --

        21              MR. ASHBURN:  Yes, sir.

        22              TREASURER NELSON:  -- and you believe that 

        23          the -- the overall implementation, that you can 

        24          see that it is going to be implemented, it's 

        25          not just going to be set on the shelf.


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             58
                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. ASHBURN:  Yes, sir. 

         2              The -- the -- the information you put into 

         3          these rules, when we bring them back to you, if 

         4          you approve those, then each teacher prep 

         5          program must abide by those requirements in 

         6          order to be State approved. 

         7              We have a committee that goes into the 

         8          system and actually evaluates the programs 

         9          periodically to determine whether or not 

        10          they've met these. 

        11              And the Commissioner actually sends a 

        12          letter out indicating whether they're fully -- 

        13          met fully these -- these criteria or not. 

        14              And they are required to improve those 

        15          areas of deficiency if they want to remain 

        16          approved by the State.

        17              DR. PROCTOR:  If I might add. 

        18              MR. ASHBURN:  Sure.

        19              DR. PROCTOR:  I might just add one word on 

        20          that, Mr. Nelson. 

        21              We just went through State approval again 

        22          at our institution.  And part of that approval 

        23          process is when the reviewers meet with 

        24          students, question them about their exposure to 

        25          technology, and other things. 


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             59
                  January 25, 2000
         1              But at the same time, we bring in 

         2          principals and teachers out in the field, and 

         3          they are questioned about the quality of the 

         4          teacher training program with emphasis on 

         5          technology. 

         6              I would tell you though, keeping up with 

         7          technology is one of the big -- big challenges, 

         8          because it just seems to stay a light year 

         9          ahead of us.  But it's a struggle.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  Thank you, Governor.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you. 

        12              Thank you.

        13              So, Commissioner, we have to accept this 

        14          report, this --

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yes, accept and 

        16          move it to rulemaking.  And then when it -- 

        17          when they -- when we go through the rulemaking 

        18          process, it will be back for final approval so 

        19          that these --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We need a motion.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I have made that 

        22          motion.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there --

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- a second?


              STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION             60
                  January 25, 2000
         1              It's been moved and seconded.

         2              Any other discussion? 

         3              Without objection, it's approved.

         4              I guess we'll see this back --

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  When the rule -- 

         6          when it goes out through the process, it will 

         7          be back.

         8              MR. PIERSON:  Item 7 is an amendment to 

         9          Rule 6A-14.072, Financial Records and Reports.

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        11              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        13              Without objection, it's approved. 

        14              (The State Board of Education Agenda was 

        15          concluded.)

        16                              *   *   *











                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  What have we got next? 

         2              Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory 

         3          Commission.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         5          minutes.

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Getting good.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         9              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        11              Without objection, it's approved.

        12              Item 2.

        13              MS. TINKER:  Item 2, recommend approval of 

        14          the proposed final rule establishing the 

        15          Capital Region Community Development District.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        19              Without objection, it's approved.

        20              MS. TINKER:  Item 3, recommend approval of 

        21          the proposed final rule amending the boundaries 

        22          of the Dunes Community Development District.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

        24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              Without objection, it's approved.

         2              MS. TINKER:  Item 4, recommend approval of 

         3          the proposed final rule establishing the 

         4          Fleming Island Plantation Community Development 

         5          District.

         6              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         7              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         9              Without objection, it's approved. 

        10              (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory 

        11          Commission Agenda was concluded.)

        12                           *   *   *















                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Secretary Struhs.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on the 

         3          minutes of November 9th and November 23rd.

         4              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         7              Without objection, it's approved.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Good morning.

         9              Agenda Item Number 2, we're seeking 

        10          approval of an application for modification of 

        11          a five-year Class IV special event for a 

        12          sovereignty submerged land issue, subject to 

        13          payment of $2,346.

        14              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Motion.

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a 

        17          second. 

        18              Any discussion?

        19              Moved and seconded.

        20              Without objection, it's approved.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  I'm sorry.  Governor, I've 

        22          been advised, you may want to raise another 

        23          issue that's not on the agenda?

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, there was a -- a 

        25          gentleman that came, Mr. Monroe, who at the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          previous agenda -- the previous meeting we had 

         2          a discussion about dead head logging, and he 

         3          felt he was impacted. 

         4              And I wanted him to come and just express 

         5          his feelings.  I don't think, because there was 

         6          no notice given, that we can do anything, but 

         7          perhaps DEP could look at the issue and get 

         8          back to us at the next meeting. 

         9              If Mr. Monroe's here, here's your shot. 

        10              Perhaps you could explain to us what -- how 

        11          you felt that the decision made was -- put you 

        12          in limbo, and then we'll ask -- if it's 

        13          appropriate, we'll ask the Department to -- to 

        14          look at your case.

        15              MR. MONROE:  Okay. 

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good morning.

        17              MR. MONROE:  Good morning.  I'm 

        18          Scott Monroe.

        19              I've got a couple of issues and comments as 

        20          to how the moratorium has affected me.

        21              I wasn't issued my permit until 

        22          November 3rd of '99.  When I got my permit, the 

        23          area of the river that I requested, unbeknownst 

        24          to me, had been worked extensively since 

        25          February. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              As of this time, three weeks ago, I 

         2          drift dove -- literally dove 18 miles of the 

         3          river, and pulled up three logs.  It's -- it's 

         4          not economically feasible for me to continue 

         5          doing it at that location.  I didn't make 

         6          enough money that day to pay my help and my 

         7          expenses for the day.

         8              You know, in -- in all the paperwork that 

         9          I've gotten, you know, it says here the Board 

        10          of Trustees changed its policies concerning 

        11          your operations in order to address these 

        12          concerns. 

        13              I guess the biggest question I have is what 

        14          about addressing my concerns of how I'm going 

        15          to pay my bills until April 25th?

        16              You know, getting into this, I've invested 

        17          a lot of money, and I'll spend a lot of money 

        18          that I have to pay bills on every month.  Since 

        19          this moratorium came into effect, I haven't 

        20          made any money since before Christmas. 

        21              I've got bill collectors constantly calling 

        22          me, harassing me, wanting money.  It's 

        23          affecting my credit.  And even more so than 

        24          that, it's affecting my integrity because I 

        25          give people my word that I'm going to do 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          something, and I can't do it.

         2              You know, your credit follows you for 

         3          seven years; your integrity, that follows you 

         4          for life.  And I just -- I don't see any -- any 

         5          end to it.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, you know, we -- we 

         7          have a -- I think you're in a unique situation, 

         8          which is why I'd like to ask the Department 

         9          to -- to work with you and look at this, since 

        10          you were in limbo. 

        11              But there is a moratorium for very sound 

        12          public policy reasons that -- that we passed.  

        13          And so we're going to have to sort this out, 

        14          recognizing that the policy, until the 

        15          Department comes back to this Board is that 

        16          there will be a moratorium. 

        17              So if -- if you could -- I wanted you to 

        18          speak, even though you weren't on the agenda, 

        19          and we can't do anything about it because it 

        20          hasn't been noticed. 

        21              But I wanted my fellow members of the -- 

        22          the Board to understand your situation.  And if 

        23          you could work with Secretary Struhs and his 

        24          staff to see if there's a way that we could put 

        25          this on the item in Bartow, or -- or two weeks 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          after that, if you don't want to go down to 

         2          Bartow.

         3              MR. MONROE:  Actually, Bartow's closer for 

         4          me than this is.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good.  The Cabinet for a 

         6          Day works again.

         7              MR. MONROE:  I just -- I'd like to see a 

         8          resolution --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I understand.

        10              MR. MONROE:  -- you know, on this that -- 

        11          that's, you know, that everyone can live with.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, we'll do our best.  

        13          Appreciate you coming.

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, members of the 

        15          Cabinet, I've -- I've actually been advised 

        16          that there are probably approximately half a 

        17          dozen individuals in Florida who are in the 

        18          same position as -- as Mr. Monroe. 

        19              And we believe we can probably work out an 

        20          arrangement where we can actually provide them 

        21          the necessary permits that they need to operate 

        22          and still work within the constraints of the 

        23          last decision of the -- of the Cabinet for 

        24          that -- for that --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If you can do --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- period.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- that, then 

         3          this -- then you say we don't have to come back 

         4          on -- with -- with a change? 

         5              MR. STRUHS:  What I'd like to be able to do 

         6          is to take a couple of days and -- and make 

         7          sure we're on solid ground.  And if we can, get 

         8          the permits issued to those -- or at least 

         9          offer them to those half a dozen individuals, 

        10          and -- and avoid the need to take it up again, 

        11          we'd like to be able to do that. 

        12              In fact --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I'd like to move 

        14          instructions to do that, Governor.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

        16              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I'd second that.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  As long as we talk to the 

        18          members of the -- the Board, just to make sure 

        19          that we're on solid --

        20              MR. STRUHS:  We'll --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- legal ground.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  -- we'll keep your Aides 

        23          advised as to our progress.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I'd be 

        25          concerned if anybody out there would have any 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          objections.  I don't know of anybody that does.  

         2          So maybe we -- if anybody does object, we may 

         3          have to have a hearing on it.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you could just work 

         5          with --

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- if this can be done --

         8              MR. STRUHS:  I think we could deal with it 

         9          administratively --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- in a bulletproof way, 

        11          fine.  But if not, I think we're going to have 

        12          to do it --

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- at the Cabinet meeting.

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Item 3?

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  City of Punta Gorda lease 

        18          modification.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 3.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there a second? 

        21              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        23              Without objection, it's approved.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Substitute Item 4, we're 

        25          recommending approval.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 4.

         2              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         4              Any discussion?

         5              Without objection, it's approved.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Substitute Item 5, and I -- I 

         7          would like to just read this one for -- for the 

         8          record. 

         9              Recommending approval of a consideration of 

        10          lifting the moratorium on disclaimers involving 

        11          permanent improvements after the Supreme Court 

        12          of Florida's decision of September 9, wherein 

        13          dredging was found not to be a permanent 

        14          improvement under the Butler Act. 

        15              An application for a disclaimer to 

        16          submerged lands beneath a dock encompassing a 

        17          fraction of an acre, more or less, and to 

        18          delegation of authority to the Secretary of 

        19          DEP, or his designee, to deny applications for 

        20          dredged areas, and to issue disclaimers for 

        21          fill and wharfs that are otherwise not 

        22          controversial.

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 5.

        24              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Second.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Is there any discussion? 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  I can -- I can put this in 

         2          plain English.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Maybe you should, since 

         4          this is a --

         5              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

         6              Which is, the Supreme Court ruled that 

         7          under the Butler Act of 1921, dredging was not 

         8          to be considered a permanent improvement. 

         9              Having resolved that at the highest level 

        10          in the courts, we are seeking your delegation 

        11          to me -- to the Department actually, to proceed 

        12          now with issuing disclaimers so that, in fact, 

        13          if you have a permanent improvement as defined 

        14          under the Butler Act, the State disclaims any 

        15          ownership in that submerged land. 

        16              If it's not considered a permanent 

        17          improvement, which would now include dredging, 

        18          we would not offer that disclaimer, with the 

        19          commitment that in those gray areas where if 

        20          there's a question, we would bring them back to 

        21          the -- to the Cabinet.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any discussion?

        23              There's a motion and a second.

        24              Without objection, approved.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Item 6, we're recommending 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          approval.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 6.

         3              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         5              Without objection, it's approved.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Item 7, recommended approval.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 7.

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        10              Without objection, it's approved.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Item 8, recommending approval.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 8. 

        13              I think it might be good if you just read 

        14          the title of that --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- for those 

        17          people that might be on the Internet, so they 

        18          can keep track. 

        19              They might not have the item numbers.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.  Item 6 was the Florida 

        21          Keys Ecosystem CARL project.

        22              Item 7 was the Perdido Pitcher Plant 

        23          Prairie.

        24              Item 8, the Coupon Bight Key Deer CARL 

        25          project.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 8.

         2              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         4              Without objection, it's approved.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  Item 9 is an option agreement 

         6          for the Spruce Creek CARL project. 

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Recommending approval.

         9              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 9.

        10              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved --

        12              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And I would just like to 

        13          say how -- how important this is historically.  

        14          As the Chief Historic Officer, we're really 

        15          pleased about this.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a 

        17          second.

        18              Any other discussion?

        19              Without objection, it's approved.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Item 10 is the Hanson/Crawford 

        21          option for managing the agency design-- 

        22          I'm sorry, the Hanson/Crawford option, and an 

        23          agreement for managing agency designation for 

        24          the Garcon ecosystem CARL project.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion on 10.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

         3              Without objection, it's approved.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  Item 11, we're withdrawing.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to 

         6          withdraw.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion to 

         9          withdraw, and a second.

        10              Without objection, it's approved.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Item 12 is an option agreement 

        12          for the Butler Properties of West Florida, 

        13          Incorporated, and addition to the Eden State 

        14          Gardens Project.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Motion to approve.

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Second.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Moved and seconded.

        18              Without objection, it's approved.









                  January 25, 2000
         1                    CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER




         5     STATE OF FLORIDA:

         6     COUNTY OF LEON:

         7              I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 

         8     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

         9     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

        10     notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 

        11     pages numbered 1 through 74 are a true and correct 

        12     record of the aforesaid proceedings.

        13              I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

        14     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 

        15     nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 

        16     or financially interested in the foregoing action.

        17              DATED THIS 3RD day of FEBRUARY, 2000. 


        20                   LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
              100 Salem Court
        21                   Tallahassee, Florida 32301





                T H E   C A B I N E T 
           S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A

                      VOLUME II
                     Pages 76-268
         The above agencies came to be heard before 
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush 
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03, 
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday, 
January 25, 2000, commencing at approximately 
9:07 a.m. 

                     Reported by:
                  LAURIE L. GILBERT
           Registered Professional Reporter
               Certified Court Reporter
             Certified Realtime Reporter
              Registered Merit Reporter
               Notary Public in and for
            the State of Florida at Large
                   100 SALEM COURT
              TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301



         Representing the Florida Cabinet: 

         JEB BUSH

         Commissioner of Agriculture


         Secretary of State

         Attorney General

         BILL NELSON

         Commissioner of Education

                       *   *   *


                  January 25, 2000
                     I N D E X

ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE

Substitute 13  Approved                     267

         CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            268 

                       *   *   *


                  January 25, 2000
         1                    P R O C E E D I N G S

         2              MR. STRUHS:  Substitute Item 13, four 

         3     different items.  First is authorizing the 

         4     Department, Secretary, or his designee, to extend a 

         5     bona fide offer, and to approve the agreement for 

         6     sale and purchase of approximately 355 acres from 

         7     Anderson Columbia and the Anderson Mining 

         8     Corporation. 

         9              Item 2, substitute the appraisal selection 

        10     process provided for the agreement in lieu of the 

        11     process established for a rule. 

        12              Three, designate Columbia County as the 

        13     managing agency. 

        14              And, four, confirm management policy 

        15     statement. 

        16              And I'd like to just expand on that a little 

        17     bit, if I might.

        18              What this is, as you well know, is an option 

        19     to acquire an operating rock quarry that is 

        20     immediately above the Ichetucknee Trace from the 

        21     Anderson Columbia Company. 

        22              This, in fact, is really not substantially 

        23     different than most any other acquisition decision 

        24     that is presented to you for your consideration.  

        25     There are, however, two distinguishing 


                  January 25, 2000
         1     characteristics. 

         2              The first is that the option to acquire this 

         3     property is available at all, and the second is how 

         4     this opportunity, in fact, became available for your 

         5     consideration.

         6              This property, as you may recall, has been 

         7     on the State's acquisition priority list for several 

         8     years.  Until this day, however, these protections 

         9     have been unavailable because we did not have a 

        10     willing seller.  That has changed, and now we do.

        11              This opportunity is essentially derived 

        12     from, but not dependent on, the settlement of some 

        13     regulatory actions taken against the company by the 

        14     Department.

        15              It's important to be clear that we've 

        16     resolved all of our outstanding regulatory issues 

        17     with the company, regardless of whether you choose to 

        18     exercise the acquisition option here today.

        19              We pursued this opportunity in this fashion 

        20     for two reasons:  One, obviously environmental 

        21     scientists and environmental advocacy groups have 

        22     long held that acquiring this property is the single 

        23     most important thing we could do to protect 

        24     Ichetucknee Spring. 

        25              But at the same time, we did not want, as 


                  January 25, 2000
         1     part of the resolution of regulatory issues, to in 

         2     any way tie your hands, or bind the Cabinet to any 

         3     particular decision on the acquisition. 

         4              This is obviously not a typical way for the 

         5     Department to bring these kinds of options to you.  

         6     However, I would argue that Ichetucknee is not your 

         7     typical spring.

         8              Would also like to point out, just as a 

         9     point of interest, that interested on the regulatory 

        10     side of the equation, this case was important in its 

        11     own right.  In this case, the Department, for one of 

        12     the very first times ever, made the case that a 

        13     permit applicant's compliance record shall be 

        14     considered in determining whether or not an applicant 

        15     can provide the necessary reasonable assurance that 

        16     the permit conditions will, in fact, be met.

        17              Pursuing that point has resulted in the 

        18     resolution of all the outstanding environmental 

        19     regulatory issues with that company, and it has 

        20     yielded protections that go well beyond what would 

        21     have otherwise been achieved under law.

        22              They, in -- in summary, include a corporate 

        23     compliance system, a number of commitments, including 

        24     a management system, employee education, and regular 

        25     environmental audits by third parties.  It includes 


                  January 25, 2000
         1     the installation of pollution control equipment that 

         2     goes far beyond what the law currently requires. 

         3              And then further, a third party being 

         4     brought in to regularly inspect that equipment to 

         5     make sure it's being operated appropriately; 

         6     providing, at the company's expense, additional 

         7     monitoring of air quality in the vicinity; includes 

         8     a -- really a futuristic system of continuous 

         9     emissions monitoring where probes will 

        10     round-the-clock keep track of what's coming out of 

        11     the stack, and then make that available to the public 

        12     24 hours a day in realtime via the Internet. 

        13              By the way, this really puts Florida on the 

        14     cutting edge in terms of environmental regulation 

        15     worldwide. 

        16              The company has also agreed to endow a 

        17     million dollar trust fund that will provide for 

        18     ongoing scientific research in the Ichetucknee area. 

        19              And they have also, as part of a settlement, 

        20     agreed to gift to the State a 21-acre site on the 

        21     Outstanding Florida Water known as the 

        22     Blackwater River, and known locally as the Bagdad 

        23     site.

        24              The -- the particular -- regarding -- the 

        25     particulars regarding the acquisition and the pricing 


                  January 25, 2000
         1     of the property probably bears just a moment of -- of 

         2     review. 

         3              It's our expectation, based on preliminary 

         4     reviews, that the appraised value of this property 

         5     will fall somewhere between 23 and 

         6     27 million dollars.  The plan is to, in fact, pay 

         7     approximately 70 percent of the appraised value.  And 

         8     if 70 percent falls within that range, that's the 

         9     price we would acquire it for, if you -- if you agree 

        10     to proceed.

        11              In the event that 70 percent of the 

        12     appraised value should exceed 27 million dollars, 

        13     it's capped, the acquisition is capped at twenty 

        14     seven.  It  just never -- it never goes beyond that.

        15              In the event that 70 percent of the 

        16     appraised value should fall below 23 million, in that 

        17     instance, we would make a 70 percent offer. 

        18              And should that offer be declined, we would 

        19     then come back to the Board of Trustees seeking 

        20     eminent domain authority in which we could then 

        21     establish the full 100 percent value of the property.  

        22     But in any event, it would not go more than 23 

        23     million dollars. 

        24              The bottom line is, expectation is the 

        25     property would be acquired for 70 percent of its 


                  January 25, 2000
         1     appraised value.  In no instance would we ever pay 

         2     more than 100 percent. 

         3              Having said that --

         4              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yeah.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  -- and having --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

         7              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You sort of 

         8          lost me on this.

         9              Let's -- let's just say for a hypothetical, 

        10          if it comes in at twenty-three million 

        11          five hundred thousand, would it be -- do we pay 

        12          twenty-three million, or do we pay 70 percent 

        13          of 23.5? 

        14              MR. STRUHS:  If it comes -- if the 

        15          70 percent appraised value falls in that range 

        16          of twenty-three to twenty-seven, that's -- 

        17          that's what we pay.

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So we pay 

        19          100 percent then.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  No.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  No.  Pay 

        22          70 percent if it comes in -- 

        23              MR. STRUHS:  If 70 percent of the appraised 

        24          value --

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Oh.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- falls between twenty-three 

         2          and twenty-seven --

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  -- that's what you pay.  So if 

         5          it were twenty-three-and-a-half million, you 

         6          would pay twenty-three-and-a-half million.

         7              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay. 

         8              MR. STRUHS:  I'd like to point out that 

         9          this -- this issue has drawn considerable 

        10          public interest, and there are a number of 

        11          elected officials that we'd like to recognize 

        12          in the audience who have -- have requested --

        13              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, may --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  -- the opportunity to speak.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  -- I ask a question 

        16          before we go --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, Commissioner Nelson.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  David, we have a process 

        19          that we go through when we buy CARL lands to 

        20          protect the -- the public on the appraisal to 

        21          try to get to the correct value.

        22              Now, can you explain to us what is the 

        23          difference between the normal CARL appraisal 

        24          process, and the one that you're proposing here 

        25          today? 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir. 

         2              Ordinarily, we would -- well, in this 

         3          instance, we would not even have had the 

         4          opportunity to negotiate with the company 

         5          because they were an unwilling seller. 

         6              So the fact that this was on the CARL list 

         7          for three or four years, and there was no 

         8          movement or no activity, that would have been 

         9          the normal course of business.

        10              What the agency -- what the Department 

        11          attempted to do in resolving all of its 

        12          regulatory issues is to provide an additional 

        13          benefit by convincing this party that they 

        14          needed to become, or should become a willing 

        15          seller, which then allowed us to engage in 

        16          these kinds of negotiations.

        17              Ordinarily, under the -- the -- the CARL 

        18          process, the State attempts to negotiate the 

        19          very best price that they can.  And as you well 

        20          know, and have -- have impressed upon me on 

        21          more than one occasion, the State never seeks 

        22          to spend more than 100 percent of the appraised 

        23          value.

        24              In this instance, because we were 

        25          essentially leveraging some of our standing, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          given the regulatory issues on the table, we 

         2          sought to get something even better than an 

         3          acquisition at 100 percent, we sought to get an 

         4          acquisition at substantially less than that. 

         5              And that's why we came up with the formula 

         6          that, in our estimation, will probably allow 

         7          you to acquire the property, if you choose, at 

         8          70 percent of its appraised value.

         9              It's -- it's a possibility that there's 

        10          always a margin of error --

        11              (Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.)

        12              MR. STRUHS:  -- but there's a possibility 

        13          that it could be less than 70 percent of the 

        14          appraised value.  It could be 65 percent of the 

        15          appraised value. 

        16              Because, in fact, if it -- if it comes in 

        17          more than twenty-seven, the benefit accrues to 

        18          the State.

        19              The company obviously had its interests to 

        20          protect and established that twenty-three 

        21          marker so that in the event that 70 percent of 

        22          the value comes in below twenty-three, we at 

        23          least have to come back to them with two -- two 

        24          bona fide offers providing them the various  

        25          benefits that come within the eminent domain 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          proceeding. 

         2              But there again, the company has agreed 

         3          that if we enter into that track, that they 

         4          would -- that the -- that the State would never 

         5          pay more than twenty-three.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, if we are 

         7          basically charged with making sure that -- that 

         8          the State buys a piece of property for the 

         9          accurate fair market value price --

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        11              TREASURER NELSON:  -- and we have a system 

        12          set up on any CARL purchase that we're familiar 

        13          with, two appraisals, the appraisals are -- are 

        14          basically secret, and then the negotiations 

        15          occur, what is it in this process that gives us 

        16          the assurance that we're not overpaying for 

        17          this piece of property? 

        18              MR. STRUHS:  I see.  A fair question.

        19              In fact, no difference at all.  We are -- 

        20          we are -- we will be using the -- the standard 

        21          prescribed CARL process that the State has 

        22          regularly used for determining the appraised 

        23          value of this property. 

        24              The only -- the only difference is is the 

        25          company has agreed up-front that if -- if that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          appraisal is complete, as we would do any 

         2          ordinary appraisal, and -- and it -- and 

         3          70 percent of that appraised value falls within 

         4          a certain range, then we get essentially a 

         5          30 percent discount.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, you say there's no 

         7          difference.  But --

         8              MR. STRUHS:  The determining -- determining 

         9          the appraised value, there is -- there is -- 

        10          there is no --

        11              (Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)  

        12              MR. STRUHS:  -- difference in how we would 

        13          ordinarily --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  From what I --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  -- appraise the value of the 

        16          property.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  From what I can sell -- 

        18          say -- or look -- just looking at this, I don't 

        19          think that -- if we could use this for the 

        20          purchase of all the CARL properties, we should 

        21          sign up.  I mean, this is a better deal for the 

        22          State. 

        23              The fact is, no buyer -- no seller would -- 

        24          would give up their -- the -- the rights that 

        25          they have in our current process, unless they 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          had these mitigating circumstances in front of 

         2          them, such as the ones that this seller had. 

         3              Isn't that -- I mean, we're -- they're 

         4          locking down a -- an appraised value of no more 

         5          than 100 percent, and in like-- in all 

         6          likelihood, it'd be 70 percent.

         7              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, if I may?

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah, sure.

         9              TREASURER NELSON:  Well, I guess the 

        10          question is:  What assurance to us that this 

        11          appraisal process will reach an accurate 

        12          reflection of 100 percent.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Okay.  The --

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  Because this is a 

        15          different appraisal process, is it not, from 

        16          what is the traditional CARL acquisition.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Let me -- let me walk you 

        18          through that.  There -- there is, as you know, 

        19          a preapproved State list of -- of appraisers, 

        20          and the appraisers will be selected from that 

        21          list. 

        22              And it -- it's -- the process works where 

        23          I think the -- the State selects three from 

        24          that list, and the company will select three 

        25          from that list. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              And then through a process of -- of 

         2          negotiation, it's then narrowed down to two 

         3          appraisers, one that the company -- represents 

         4          the company, one represents the State.

         5              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Now, how does 

         6          that differ with the normal CARL acquisition?  

         7          Selection of appraisers.

         8              MS. ARMSTRONG:  May I? 

         9              I think it's --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The next step is where --

        11              SECRETARY HARRIS:  The fact that they have 

        12          a choice.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Ordinarily, the -- if -- if it 

        14          were not this kind of situation, we would have 

        15          selected -- the State would have selected a 

        16          single appraiser from -- from the list of 

        17          approved appraisers. 

        18              In this instance, because it is an unusual 

        19          situation in which we are taking an unwilling 

        20          seller, and making them a willing seller, the 

        21          agreement is that they would get to pick an 

        22          appraiser, we would get to pick the appraiser. 

        23              And then if I -- if you'd allow me to 

        24          continue, that if -- if the -- if the appraised 

        25          values of those two -- two appraisers are 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          within 20 percent of each other, we would go 

         2          with the higher value. 

         3              And if it were -- yeah, if it were -- if 

         4          it's within 20 percent, we go with the higher 

         5          value; if it is greater than 20 percent --

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We go with the lower value.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  -- we go with the lower -- we 

         8          go with the lower value, plus 20 percent.

         9              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Now, that's the 

        10          formula that you've come up for this.  But I -- 

        11          I want to go back to the question of the -- of 

        12          the selection of the appraisers.

        13              Okay.  I want to go back --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  -- to the question of 

        16          the selection of the appraisers.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  I want to know 

        19          specifically what is different in the selection 

        20          of the appraisers under this agreement, as 

        21          opposed to the traditional CARL acquisition.  

        22          I -- I don't have a clear answer on that.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  The way it's going to work in 

        24          this situation is the State of Florida will 

        25          pick three appraisers from the preapproved 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          list.  The company will select three appraisers 

         2          from the approved list.  Working together, they 

         3          will narrow that down to two appraisers. 

         4              Those two appraisers will then 

         5          independently go off, do their work, come back 

         6          with their numbers.

         7              TREASURER NELSON:  So that differs from the 

         8          present CARL process in that the State only 

         9          picks the appraisers in the present CARL 

        10          process.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Right.  This is --

        12              TREASURER NELSON:  In this case, the -- the 

        13          seller is picking the -- one of the appraisers; 

        14          is that correct? 

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Right.  This is a -- this is 

        16          more typical of a business-like approach to  

        17          negotiating the value of this property.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  Is our present -- answer 

        19          this for me --

        20              If you would, Governor.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  Please.

        22              TREASURER NELSON:  -- is our present CARL 

        23          appraisal process, is that etched in law, or is 

        24          that etched in a Department rule? 

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Rule.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              TREASURER NELSON:  In a rule.

         2              And I take it under that rule, there is an 

         3          ability for the Department to -- to sidestep 

         4          that rule if there are extenuating 

         5          circumstances --

         6              Mr. Green, from a legal standpoint, what's 

         7          the answer to that question? 

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  He's not lawyer.

         9              MR. GREEN:  I'm an engineer, I'm not a 

        10          lawyer.

        11              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Then --

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Then your 

        13          answer --

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  -- do you have --

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- ought to 

        16          be right.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  -- one of your 

        18          Department lawyers, or someone that can answer 

        19          the specific legal authority.

        20              MR. GREEN:  Treasurer, I can tell you 

        21          that -- that we've been in a lawsuit before on 

        22          Golden Gate Estates, and we used this precise 

        23          methodology to help choose the appraisers. 

        24              The issue there was, they, the community of 

        25          Golden Gates, had no confidence in our 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          independently selected appraisers to come to 

         2          value. 

         3              So what we agreed to do is set up a 

         4          committee that would work together to choose 

         5          appraisers that they would have confidence in, 

         6          and the Department would have confidence in, as 

         7          we move forward.

         8              That's the same thing we're doing here.

         9              TREASURER NELSON:  Did you have the legal 

        10          authority to do that under the existing DEP 

        11          rule? 

        12              MR. GREEN:  We -- we did that, yes, sir, 

        13          under the existing rule.  And, therefore, we 

        14          had the authority.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  I see people back 

        16          there with quizzical expressions on their 

        17          faces, and I'd like to know what the quizzical 

        18          expression is.

        19              MR. STRUHS:  Is this the man that had the 

        20          quizzical expression? 

        21              TREASURER NELSON:  That's one of them.

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  He's a 

        23          lawyer, that's why.  

        24              MR. COSTIGAN:  I'm John Costigan, Deputy 

        25          General Counsel with the Department.  I don't 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          have a quizzical expression.

         2              You have done this before.  You have the 

         3          statutory authority set forth in 259 to alter 

         4          or waive this -- this appraisal process, 

         5          provided an equal protection is afforded.  

         6          That's expressed in the statutes.

         7              So one of the requests here is for you to 

         8          give them the authority to employ this 

         9          procedure on appraisals. 

        10              I was part of the Golden Gate Estates 

        11          resolution that we brought to you about 

        12          two years ago.  And it involved the exact same 

        13          methodology of picking an appraiser. 

        14              What we did was let the other side into the 

        15          process because in -- in that dispute involving 

        16          4,000 property owners in Collier County, the 

        17          claim had been made for a number of years that 

        18          the State had, in effect, cooked the appraisal. 

        19              So we let them into the process of picking 

        20          the appraiser in that one.  And, in fact, 

        21          this -- this procedure was barred from that.

        22              Now, another -- as an aside in that one, 

        23          that -- that didn't have a cap, it didn't have 

        24          a floor --

        25              TREASURER NELSON:  Right.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. COSTIGAN:  -- we brought it to you, 

         2          and --

         3              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Thank you for the 

         4          answer. 

         5              MR. COSTIGAN:  Thank you.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  That's what I wanted to 

         7          know.

         8              All right.  Now, Governor, I have one final 

         9          question.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Sure.

        11              TREASURER NELSON:  All right.  From -- from 

        12          our standpoint, since we have to be concerned 

        13          about the value of the property --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        15              TREASURER NELSON:  -- what is your 

        16          reasoning that the public's interest is 

        17          protected on achieving an accurate price in the 

        18          situation that you have outlined, which 

        19          deviates from the normal standard policy in 

        20          that -- in that the willing seller gets to 

        21          choose one of the appraisers? 

        22              Now, what is the protection to the public 

        23          from your standpoint in that that normal 

        24          appraisal process has been changed? 

        25              MR. STRUHS:  The process is a -- is a 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          transparent one.  It's a public one.  All the 

         2          information that the appraisers have available 

         3          to them, and their recommendations back to us, 

         4          is -- is open for your review, and -- and that 

         5          of anybody else.

         6              These appraisers are preapproved, they are 

         7          part of the qualified appraisers who use 

         8          standard -- you know, industry standards in 

         9          their profession.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  How many of those 

        11          appraisers do we have preapproved? 

        12              MR. STRUHS:  How many are on the State 

        13          list?

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  Yes.

        15              MS. ARMSTRONG:  Several hundred -- 

        16          several thousand.

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  Several thousand.

        18              MS. ARMSTRONG:  There would be few of that 

        19          that have the expertise, however.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  The other thing I would add is 

        21          that typically when you're doing this kind of 

        22          appraisal, the -- there is the need for 

        23          specialized knowledge, in this case, geology. 

        24              The appraisers are authorized in this 

        25          instance to -- to bring in that kind of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          expertise.  And they will use the same data 

         2          from -- from -- from the -- the geological 

         3          scientists to -- to perform technically their 

         4          appraisal.

         5              TREASURER NELSON:  Thank you, Governor.

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I just have 

         7          one question, Governor. 

         8              And it comes -- and it's not a -- I did not 

         9          mean to ask this question because now I'm -- 

        10          I'm confused.

        11              The -- the -- you said that if it comes in 

        12          between twenty-three and twenty seven, we pay 

        13          100 percent of the -- of that value.

        14              MR. STRUHS:  No.  I'm sorry. 

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  The --

        16              MR. STRUHS:  And I -- I apologize if -- if 

        17          I misspoke.  But let me just try it again 

        18          because --

        19              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Because 

        20          that's what I --

        21              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.  This is -- 

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I thought I 

        23          understood before I came in here.  Now --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It's this.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  The -- the appraisers will 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          obviously come back and tell us what their -- 

         2          what their appraised value is, and then through 

         3          that process, will come up with a number.  And 

         4          that will be the 100 percent appraised value. 

         5              We then discount that down to 70 percent.  

         6          If that 70 percent falls between twenty-three 

         7          and twenty-seven million dollars, which we 

         8          expect it will, that's what the State would 

         9          pay.

        10              If for some reason the 70 percent value of 

        11          whatever that appraisal is, is more than 

        12          twenty-seven, you only pay twenty-seven. 

        13              So, in fact, it becomes more than a 

        14          70 percent discount, it could become a 65, 

        15          60 percent.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So -- so 

        17          about the -- my original question before:  If 

        18          it comes -- if the appraisal comes in at 

        19          twenty-three five, how much do we pay? 

        20              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Seventy percent.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If the 

        22          appraisal -- or 70 percent of the appraisal?

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No, no.  No.  

        24          If the appraisal itself comes in.  That's what 

        25          I --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Oh. 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good question.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The first thing 

         4          you do is take it down to 70 percent of that.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  But then 

         6          that --

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- then that 

         9          brings the purchase price then below --

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Below twenty-three.

        11              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  --three, 

        12          which means then we go to eminent domain 

        13          process?

        14              MR. STRUHS:  No.  In that instance, what we 

        15          would do is we'd actually make the offer at 

        16          70 percent --

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.

        18              MR. STRUHS:  -- of twenty-three-and-a-half, 

        19          which, I'm sorry, I can't do in my head.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I don't 

        21          either.  But -- 

        22              MR. STRUHS:  But the company might accept 

        23          that offer.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay. 

        25              MR. STRUHS:  In the event that they choose 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          not to, we would then make a second bona fide 

         2          offer, and that offer would obviously be set by 

         3          you --

         4              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay. 

         5              MR. STRUHS:  -- as a Cabinet, assume that 

         6          that offer is 100 percent -- certainly no more 

         7          than 100 percent. 

         8              But in any event, it would never go above 

         9          23 million.  You would never pay more than 

        10          100 percent of the appraised value.

        11              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  But the 

        12          appraised value -- and here's where you 

        13          confused me a little bit there --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Sure.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- if we 

        16          have two appraised values from two different 

        17          appraisers, and one is 20 percent higher, we go 

        18          with the higher one.

        19              MR. STRUHS:  In terms of determining the 

        20          initial appraised value, there will be two 

        21          appraisals done.  If they -- if they're 

        22          close --

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You go with 

        24          the highest one.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  -- if they're -- if they're 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          within 20 percent of each other --

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You go with 

         3          the highest --

         4              MR. STRUHS:  -- you get the higher one.

         5              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Right.

         6              Now, in a normal procedure -- a normal CARL 

         7          procedure, if you have two appraisals, and one 

         8          is 20 percent higher, what is your authority, 

         9          what do you usually do?  Do you offer the 

        10          highest? 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  No.  I have notes on this.

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Because I 

        13          just want to make sure.  I mean --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- from what 

        16          the Commissioner has stated to make sure 

        17          that -- and I think you protect the State, I'm 

        18          not sure -- this is why I'm questioning this 

        19          here -- to make sure we will never pay 

        20          100 percent more than we would have paid under 

        21          another type of process anyway.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Right. 

        23              You know, just in the interest of time, 

        24          it's going to be faster if I have somebody else 

        25          answer that than my -- rifle through my --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We can even 

         2          answer this later on during discussion, 

         3          Governor. 

         4              I -- I just want to -- I think we should 

         5          close this, if we're going to close it, to make 

         6          sure we're never going to --

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If --

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- not going 

         9          to be put in that box and -- 

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If -- if you --

        11              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And they can 

        12          answer it at 4:00 o'clock, whenever this thing 

        13          is over.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thanks, Bob.

        15              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Governor -- 

        16          Governor, if I may. 

        17              The -- the process is if you have -- if 

        18          you've got a -- an appraised value that is 

        19          23.5, 70 percent of that is sixteen point 

        20          four hundred and fifty thousand. 

        21              And then you put 20 percent on that, which 

        22          will make the offer be nineteen million seven 

        23          hundred and thirty.  So it would be less than 

        24          the twenty-three, that seller has the option to 

        25          accept that or reject it.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              If they reject it, then we have the option 

         2          to then go to eminent domain.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  What?

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  This --

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, you asked 

         6          the question:  What if they had a 

         7          seventeen point -- if it was 

         8          twenty-three point -- twenty-three point five 

         9          million appraisal. 

        10              And the answer to that is:  One, it would 

        11          be below twenty-three.  The actual offer we 

        12          would make would be nineteen million 

        13          seven hundred thirty thousand. 

        14              And the seller has the option to accept 

        15          that or reject it.  If they reject it, then the 

        16          State has the option to go for eminent domain.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Whosever 

        18          (sic) going to say it's -- it's very clear.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And what it is, it protects 

        21          the State in ways that the typical process 

        22          would not do, and it's -- it's only -- the only 

        23          reason we have this power is that this was an 

        24          unwilling seller who became a willing seller 

        25          because of negotiating on other items that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          you're fully aware of.

         2              So --

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Have a 

         4          lawsuit on it.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- it -- if we could have 

         6          this process in place for every piece of 

         7          property we buy --

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It'd be a good 

         9          thing.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- it'd be -- well, it'd be 

        11          impossible, and -- and we would -- it probably 

        12          violates some rule somewhere, because it -- it 

        13          protects the State, it protects the seller -- 

        14          the buyer of this property in ways that the 

        15          typical process doesn't -- doesn't allow.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, my 

        17          original reading was that's how I -- the 

        18          conclusion I had.  But now after hearing some 

        19          of this stuff, I'm not quite sure that it might 

        20          just not hit a valuation where it might not. 

        21              I -- I just want to make sure on all 

        22          values, it does.  It -- there might be some -- 

        23          some gap period where it may not, but --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, if the price 

        25          reaches -- goes below a certain threshold, the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          seller does not have to sell.  Then we go to -- 

         2          to a different process.  That's the -- that's 

         3          the difference that maybe wasn't explained 

         4          as --

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And if it goes 

         6          above, we can't go more than twenty-seven 

         7          million.  So --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And if the two 

         9          appraisers --

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- it doesn't 

        11          matter what it is --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- the other question that 

        13          you brought up, the two appraisers, if there is 

        14          wide variance, which is a legitimate question, 

        15          the -- it defaults to the -- to the lower 

        16          price. 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  And if it's within the 

        19          twenty margin, it -- it goes to the higher 

        20          price.  So --

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  As long as it's --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- but we al--

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- not more 

        24          than --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- we always assume that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the --

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- twenty-seven 

         3          million -- 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- appraisers are going to, 

         5          you know, do it right -- do what's right, and 

         6          come up with the same conclusion that 

         7          eliminates the possibility of some wild 

         8          estimation that may go way above whatever -- 

         9          what we think.

        10              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Well, 

        11          theoretically, if you're taking a 30 percent 

        12          discount, and the most it can go up is 

        13          20 percent, you're probably going to save 

        14          10 percent. 

        15              I mean, that -- that would -- that would -- 

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Very good.

        17              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.  Exactly.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I mean --

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That's true.  That's 

        20          exactly right.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  For a lawyer, that 

        22          was very good math.

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  That's exactly right.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That -- 

        25          that'd be the simple solution.  But --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yeah.  That -- 

         2              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- when I 

         3          started hearing more of this, I wasn't quite 

         4          sure we were going to fit in that category.  

         5          That's all.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, and -- and members, 

         7          there -- 

         8              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Don't have  

         9          the lawyers do math.  I mean, it's not --

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        11              Just like you don't want secretaries to do 

        12          law.

        13              I -- I do want to emphasize one -- one 

        14          point though that I may not have made as clear 

        15          as I should have. 

        16              In -- in the event that we were to -- and 

        17          this is, I think, unlikely.  But in the event 

        18          that we were to go down the -- the path where 

        19          the State wanted to exercise eminent domain, in 

        20          that instance, of course, the jury will 

        21          ultimately decide what the value of that land 

        22          is. 

        23              Again, highly unlikely, but it is 

        24          conceivable that it could come back and -- and 

        25          determine that the value of the land is forty 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          or fifty million dollars. 

         2              In that instance, the State would never 

         3          have to pay more than twenty-three.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Even in the agreement that 

         5          we have.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Right.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Twenty--

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Twenty-seven.

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- twenty-seven.

        10              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Twenty-three.

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  The math is 

        12          twenty-seven.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Twenty-seven.

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, may I ask 

        15          another question?

        16              MR. STRUHS:  Yeah.  That's -- that's 

        17          incorrect.  It's twenty-three.

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Twenty-three.

        19              MR. STRUHS:  It's twenty-three.

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  So if you go to 

        21          eminent domain --

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Between --

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the most we pay 

        24          is twenty-three? 

        25              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Yeah, this is --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Oh.  Because we 

         2          went below that to start with.  Got you.

         3              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner.

         5              MR. STRUHS:  The most you would ever pay in 

         6          an eminent domain is -- is --

         7              The simple point is:  The State would never 

         8          pay more than 100 percent of the value.  And -- 

         9          and, likely less.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  David, has the State 

        11          ever deviated from the normal CARL appraisal 

        12          process, save for the Golden Gates Estates --

        13              MR. STRUHS:  I don't --

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  -- situation? 

        15              MR. STRUHS:  -- I don't know the answer to 

        16          that, but I can --

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  Well --

        18              MR. STRUHS:  -- obviously get that.

        19              TREASURER NELSON:  -- I -- can we get that 

        20          from your --

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I --

        22              TREASURER NELSON:  -- General Counsel?

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- I can answer 

        24          it. 

        25              We bought property down in the Keys, and 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          because the seller was unwilling to sell it at 

         2          100 percent of --

         3              (Governor Bush exited the room.)

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- what we had it 

         5          appraised, the law was amended to allow a -- a 

         6          15 or 20 percent addition.  And it -- after 

         7          that law was passed, it came back to the 

         8          Cabinet, and we paid more than that. 

         9              So there -- there have been other ways in 

        10          which we've paid more than 100 percent of the 

        11          appraisal because we wanted to acquire that 

        12          land, and it was very important to acquire it.  

        13          So --

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  Can I get the 

        15          perspective of the General Counsel of the 

        16          Department? 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  If she's available.

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Golden Gates 

        19          is very unique, 4,000 small little lots. 

        20              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And we 

        22          had -- we had the --  

        23              MR. STRUHS:  John. 

        24              MS. DONALDSON:  Good morning, Treasurer. 

        25              I'm Teri Donaldson, the new General Counsel 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          for the Department of Environmental Protection. 

         2              I've only been on board a few months, so I 

         3          don't have much historical perspective to 

         4          answer your question. 

         5              My deputy, John Costigan, though, has 

         6          informed me, and he's been around for many, 

         7          many moons, that he cannot recall any other 

         8          incident other than Golden Gate.

         9              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Then the public 

        10          policy question, to me, is:  Is this sufficient 

        11          justification to deviate from the time-honored 

        12          practice that we have done all the other CARL 

        13          projects? 

        14              It may be, I want to hear the testimony, as 

        15          it was with our collective --

        16              (Governor Bush entered the room.)

        17              TREASURER NELSON:  -- determination with 

        18          regard to Golden Gate.  But that, to me, is a 

        19          major public policy question on the question of 

        20          valuation.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, we do have a number 

        22          of speakers, and I'd like to just note there 

        23          are some elected officials who -- who would 

        24          like to be recognized, and -- and perhaps 

        25          provide a -- a brief set of comments. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              If we could --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  How many speakers do we 

         3          have, Secretary?

         4              MR. STRUHS:  We have -- we have very many. 

         5              But -- but what I'd like to do is -- I'd 

         6          like -- we'd like to limit -- we'd like to 

         7          limit -- if it -- if it's agreeable to you and 

         8          the Cabinet, this to no more than another hour.  

         9          And I'd like to at least identify the elected 

        10          officials first.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If there are a lot of 

        12          people speaking, maybe we could -- ask that 

        13          everybody's -- I -- people -- you know, I've 

        14          got this problem with people coming far -- to 

        15          come -- if -- if they could keep their remarks 

        16          brief, I would rather allow people to speak 

        17          that want to speak. 

        18              And if it takes more than an hour, I'm 

        19          here.  Everybody else can -- I mean, we'll --

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Okay. 

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's my job --

        22              (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- and I think people have 

        24          a right to have their voice heard.  So --

        25              MR. STRUHS:  I'd like to then --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General Butterworth said we 

         2          were leaving at 4:00.  We'll see if we can beat 

         3          that.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  If -- if I could then identify 

         5          some of the elected officials -- 

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  But brevity -- in return 

         7          for that, brevity, or if -- if it's been said, 

         8          and you feel like you have to say it again the 

         9          same way, maybe there's a -- a way to feel like 

        10          you've spoken through someone else. 

        11              But if you could just -- if we could get 

        12          through this, it'd be great.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Our lead-off speaker then 

        14          would be the State Representative from that 

        15          part of the state, Mr. Dwight Stansel. 

        16              And he will be followed by the 

        17          County Coordinator from Columbia County, who is 

        18          here representing all of their Commissioners.  

        19          In fact, all of the County Commissioners are 

        20          here this morning. 

        21              And then following that would be the -- 

        22          Commissioner Don Odom from the Suwannee County; 

        23          and then the Mayor of Lake City, Mayor 

        24          Ray Kirkland, in that order.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              Representative, welcome. 

         2              MR. STANSEL:  Thank you, Governor, Cabinet. 

         3              I don't know if being first is good or bad.  

         4          You're either dispensable, or the victim, or 

         5          something possibly.  So --

         6              I come before you today to urge you to 

         7          support Secretary Struhs' proposal.  We've 

         8          heard so much talk about the Ichetucknee River 

         9          and the Ichetucknee Trace area in the recent 

        10          couple of years, and now you have an 

        11          opportunity to do something about it 

        12          positively. 

        13              There's already some positive things been 

        14          done.  In Columbia County, through the Florida 

        15          Community's Trust Fund and the Columbia County 

        16          Commissioners' purchase of Alligator Lake and 

        17          the future storm water retention and treatment 

        18          areas that's going to be built in the city of 

        19          Lake City, and that is the head -- head of the 

        20          Trace, those are some very positive things.  

        21          The DEP's requirement that we do an 

        22          Ichetucknee Trace study for possibly a regional 

        23          utility system in the area, to replace the 

        24          septic tank systems that's there. 

        25              But apparently one of the most troublesome 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          areas is -- is this piece of property that's -- 

         2          that's being discussed this morning.

         3              I'm certainly not a geologist, and I can 

         4          assure you, I haven't been there and went down 

         5          in those holes.  I have no desire to.  But I do 

         6          listen to the experts in the -- that field.

         7              And apparently it is a very sensitive area 

         8          pertaining to the Ichetucknee River and the -- 

         9          and the whole Trace area.  And I can tell you, 

        10          based on the conversations I've had in my 

        11          District, and I represent a very large 

        12          district, all of five counties and parts of -- 

        13          of two others. 

        14              But most of the conversation and the phone 

        15          calls that we've had at our District has been 

        16          support of the Secretary's goals that he has 

        17          here.

        18              There's already some talk about some of the 

        19          great recreational possibilities that this area 

        20          will provide.  Columbia County has a dire 

        21          interest in being a public -- in a public -- 

        22          public relationship with the State to manage it 

        23          and use it for a recreational facility.  They 

        24          have some plans for that already if it could 

        25          work out.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)

         2              MR. STANSEL:  When I was elected, I told 

         3          people in our country rural area that I would 

         4          make my decisions based on pure facts and good 

         5          country common sense.  And I do that about 

         6          99.9 percent of the time.  I do let one little 

         7          thousandths of emotion enter into it sometime, 

         8          I know.

         9              But based on that criteria, that is the 

        10          reason I stand in support of the Secretary's 

        11          proposal to you today.  I support it.  And any 

        12          way I can help you in your decision making, I 

        13          invite you to our -- to our area any time 

        14          possible, I -- I will work with you on that.

        15              That's all I have.

        16              Does anyone have any questions?  I'll be 

        17          glad to entertain any right now.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Representative.

        19              MR. STANSEL:  Thank you.

        20              MR. WILLIAMS:  Governor, members of the 

        21          Cabinet, thank you for your leadership, and for 

        22          this opportunity. 

        23              I've been asked to speak to you in behalf 

        24          of the Board of County Commissioners of 

        25          Columbia County. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              And for the record, my name is 

         2          Dale Williams, and I am the County Coordinator.  

         3          I -- all five of the County Commissioners are 

         4          present.  I will introduce them in just a 

         5          minute. 

         6              But I think it's important, as we begin 

         7          this discussion, to point out to you that of -- 

         8          three of the five commissioners are not only 

         9          native Floridians, they are, in fact, native 

        10          Columbia Countians. 

        11              The other two have lived there so long, 

        12          quite frankly, we had to remind them that they 

        13          weren't.

        14              But what this simply means is, we all grew 

        15          up in the area thinking that we were experts 

        16          when it come to the Ichetucknee.

        17              If you needed to know where the mullet ran; 

        18          if you needed to know where the best place to 

        19          crawfish was; if you needed to know where the 

        20          fence was cut to get to the river, we were 

        21          experts.

        22              But a few things happened that changed all 

        23          of that just a few short years ago.  A couple 

        24          of years ago, the County received a phone call 

        25          from a guy named Jim Stevenson.  Jim is the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Director of the Department of Ecosystem 

         2          Management with DEP. 

         3              And our first reaction was is, oh, no, here 

         4          comes a State bureaucrat, he's going to tell us 

         5          how we need to run things and what we're doing 

         6          wrong.

         7              But a surprising thing happened.  Jim come, 

         8          and he walked in and he said, look, Florida's 

         9          springs are in trouble.  And he give us a bunch 

        10          of examples where not only were the springs in 

        11          trouble, but, if anything, they were classified 

        12          as just almost nonexistent any longer. 

        13              And he didn't ask us to do anything, except 

        14          to form a partnership with the State to look 

        15          and see if we couldn't learn more about our 

        16          Ichetucknee, and what we may could do to 

        17          preserve it and protect it.

        18              And things do not change easily in 

        19          Columbia County.  But what Jim did is he 

        20          brought a number of people to the table, he 

        21          formed a working group.  It was a diverse 

        22          group.  There were biologists; there were 

        23          geologists; there were average, every day 

        24          common working people; there were people 

        25          representing the farm element.  A little bit of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          everybody.  A lot of diversity.

         2              And as time went on, we began to gather 

         3          information, and we began to educate ourself.  

         4          And we began to learn that what we did on the 

         5          surface affected what come out at the spring. 

         6              And we began to learn that if we allowed 

         7          cattle to walk into the streams and creeks, we 

         8          were affecting the river. 

         9              And we began to learn that if we allowed 

        10          septic tanks, unlimited, in the Trace, that we 

        11          were affecting the river.

        12              And so we took this knowledge, and we went 

        13          back, and as a County, we said, what can we do?  

        14          What can we do as a County to help protect and 

        15          preserve our Ichetucknee. 

        16              And we first looked at the basin itself.  

        17          We said, what is the Ichetucknee basin?  And we 

        18          had it defined at the 50 foot contour interval.  

        19          And we decided it should be the 75 foot contour 

        20          interval, so we broadened the bases. 

        21              We decided that densities within that Trace 

        22          for homes should not be more than one unit per 

        23          10 acres.  We did that. 

        24              We began to realize that the streams and 

        25          creeks emptied into openings, which affected 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the river.  So with your help, through some of 

         2          your programs, we set out to acquire those that 

         3          we could better protect and preserve them.

         4              We limited and endorsed new changes to all 

         5          the mining policies within the 

         6          Comprehensive Plan to ensure that no new mines 

         7          could be allowed in the Trace. 

         8              We become partners with all the State 

         9          agencies:  Water Management, DEP, and 

        10          et cetera, to continue to identify resources 

        11          that we could use in order to better the 

        12          Ichetucknee.

        13              We believe as a County that we have done 

        14          what we can reasonably do.  And long before 

        15          there were other issues, Columbia County, on 

        16          its own, tried to acquire the mines that are 

        17          before you today. 

        18              When I first approached, in behalf of 

        19          the Board, the owners of the mines, we 

        20          approached them with the concept of a donation.  

        21          Loud but proud, we did it, you know.  The worst 

        22          they could do was ask us to leave. 

        23              They did not do that.  They were kind.  

        24          They just give us an economics lesson in 

        25          operating lime rock mine.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              From there, we went and we even attempted 

         2          through Congress to -- to endorse tax credits, 

         3          not tax deductions, but tax credits, as a means 

         4          of securing the mines. 

         5              It was by no small effort of the Secretary 

         6          to get the issue brought before you today.  I 

         7          know that that's been a bone of contention.  I 

         8          understand that.  The County Commission has 

         9          friends who are on the other side of the issue. 

        10              But the simple truth is is we commend the 

        11          Secretary for what he did, or otherwise we 

        12          would not have this opportunity today to even 

        13          discuss it.

        14              And so toward that end, the Board has 

        15          approved a resolution, which I will like -- 

        16          would like to read, and then I'd like to 

        17          introduce them. 

        18              This is Columbia County, Florida, 

        19          Resolution Number 2000R-2.  It's a resolution 

        20          of the Board of County Commissioners of 

        21          Columbia County, Florida, supporting the 

        22          acquisition of and boundary amendment, to the 

        23          Ichetucknee Trace Lime Rock Mines Conservation 

        24          and Recreational Lands Project. 

        25              Whereas, the Ichetucknee Springs and River 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          are outstanding natural resources of important 

         2          social and economic value to Columbia County 

         3          and the State of Florida; and 

         4              Whereas, the Ichetucknee Trace lime rock 

         5          mines may pose significant threat to the water 

         6          quality of the Ichetucknee; and

         7              Whereas, all mining activities must be 

         8          stopped as the blasting and excavation of the 

         9          mines pose too great a risk to the future of 

        10          the Ichetucknee Springs and River; and

        11              Whereas the most feasible method to 

        12          accomplish the cessation of all mining 

        13          activities is through the acquisition of the 

        14          Ichetucknee Trace lime rock mines; and

        15              Whereas Columbia County has become an 

        16          active member of the Ichetucknee Springs Water 

        17          Quality Working Group; and

        18              Whereas, the Columbia County Commission 

        19          supported the addition of the Ichetucknee Trace 

        20          lime rock mines to the Conservation and 

        21          Recreation Lands priority list in 1997; and

        22              Whereas, the Columbia County 

        23          Comprehensive Plan has been amended to prohibit 

        24          any new mines in the Ichetucknee Trace and the 

        25          high aquifer recharge areas of Columbia County; 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          and

         2              Whereas, the Columbia County land 

         3          development regulations provide that the zoning 

         4          is restricted to one dwelling unit per 10 acres 

         5          within the Trace; and

         6              Whereas, Columbia County has provided for 

         7          additional setbacks along identified creeks and 

         8          streams that would affect the Ichetucknee; and 

         9              Whereas, Columbia County has participated 

        10          in grant programs to acquire sensitive 

        11          geological features pertinent to the 

        12          Ichetucknee; and

        13              Whereas, Columbia County has participated 

        14          in a joint project, with the Suwannee River 

        15          Water Management District, and the City of 

        16          Lake City to study storm water management 

        17          programs that may be beneficial to the 

        18          Ichetucknee and the County as a whole; and

        19              Whereas, the County Commission agrees to 

        20          become the lead agency for managing any lands 

        21          purchased in the Ichetucknee Trace for water 

        22          quality protection.

        23              Now, therefore, be it resolved that the 

        24          Board of County Commissioners of 

        25          Columbia County strongly supports the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          acquisition and boundary amendment to the 

         2          Ichetucknee Trace lime rock mines, Conservation 

         3          and Recreational Lands Project, unanimously 

         4          passed and adopted in a regular session the 

         5          20th day of January, 2000.

         6              I have to apologize for the length.  The 

         7          County Attorney gets paid by the hour.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Tell them --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you --

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- like it is, 

        11          Brother.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you please recognize 

        13          the Commissioners so that we can move on?  I --

        14              MR. WILLIAMS:  I would --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a very good 

        16          presentation.

        17              MR. WILLIAMS:  -- love to. 

        18              Governor, if I would, would all five of the 

        19          County Commissioners --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.

        21              MR. WILLIAMS:  -- please stand for 

        22          Columbia County? 

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We welcome you all.

        24              Thank --

        25              MR. WILLIAMS:  Commissioner 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Ronald Williams. 

         2              Raise your hand.

         3              Commissioner Dewey Weaver, Commissioner 

         4          Zimmie Petty, Commissioner Kenneth Witt, and 

         5          Commissioner James Montgomery.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

         7              MR. WILLIAMS:  Yes, ma'am.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Secretary.

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.  I have a question.

        10              It's impressive what the Commissioners have 

        11          done proactively over the years to help keep 

        12          the Ichetucknee clean.  I've -- I've tubed it, 

        13          I've canoed it.  It's a very -- very special 

        14          place. 

        15              What -- it seems that everyone's addressing 

        16          the process of -- of the purchase of the mine, 

        17          whether it's the appraisal process, or the -- 

        18          or other issues. 

        19              What isn't addressed in the resolution, and 

        20          what's the sticking point and the difficulty 

        21          for all of us, of course, is the permitting of 

        22          the plant which is linked.

        23              MR. WILLIAMS:  Uh-hum.  

        24              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And so the issue -- 

        25          I guess my only concern is that we all want to 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          purchase this mine, and we're going to work out 

         2          what the appropriate process is.

         3              This resolution, of course, by the 

         4          Commissioners, that was approved unanimously, 

         5          doesn't address the -- you know, it addresses 

         6          the purchase, which within the purchase --

         7              MR. WILLIAMS:  Uh-hum.  

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- includes the linkage 

         9          of the permitting, which it's my understanding, 

        10          there's no -- we -- the Department -- the DEP 

        11          has no grounds to refuse the permit, but it's 

        12          just the linkage. 

        13              When you approved this, and with the 

        14          resolution, there wasn't also the endorsement 

        15          of the -- the concrete plant. 

        16              So was this entire approval process done 

        17          and reached through the understanding that the 

        18          linkage to the concrete plant existed? 

        19              MR. WILLIAMS:  No.  Please understand our 

        20          desire to purchase the mines acquired before 

        21          there ever was a cement plant issue.

        22              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Right.

        23              MR. WILLIAMS:  And so the cement plant was 

        24          only the tool that got the issue to the 

        25          forefront to be discussed.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              As far as Columbia County's position, the 

         2          Board of County Commission discussed the item 

         3          during a regular meeting, and decided to be 

         4          neutral on the issue. 

         5              It's in Suwannee County, not Columbia --

         6              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Uh-hum.

         7              MR. WILLIAMS:  -- the mine site.  The issue 

         8          is viewed as having two parts:  One, it's a 

         9          land use issue, which the Suwannee County Board 

        10          of County Commissioners, not Columbia County, 

        11          will determine; and it's the issue of the State 

        12          permitting, which, of course, your agencies 

        13          will determine.

        14              So the County Commission felt like there 

        15          was nothing that they could add to the debate.  

        16          And, therefore, there's been one of neutrality. 

        17              We, too, wish that these were separate 

        18          issues, because there are people who will speak 

        19          against the mine purchase, for the reason you 

        20          said, that are our friends. 

        21              And quite frankly, we wish that that was 

        22          not the case.  But unfortunately it is.  But 

        23          nonetheless, we are pleased that it's to this 

        24          point. 

        25              And, again, we urge you to act to purchase 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the mines.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General Butterworth.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Sir, on 

         4          behalf of Col-- of Columbia County, Columbia -- 

         5          Columbia County would -- would urge this -- 

         6          this Board to -- to split the issues? 

         7              MR. WILLIAMS:  Well, that would be fine 

         8          with us.  We -- we are neutral in the issue of 

         9          the cement plant.  We do desire for the mines 

        10          to be purchased.

        11              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  But 

        12          Columbia County, I believe, has an excellent 

        13          record -- and you ought to be commended of what 

        14          you have been doing over the -- over the past 

        15          few years, reference this mine and --

        16              MR. WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- we do 

        18          commend you for that.

        19              MR. WILLIAMS:  We appreciate that.

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        21              MR. WILLIAMS:  Governor.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. -- Mr. Don Odom, who is 

        23          the Commissioner from Suwannee County, is -- is 

        24          going to speak.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner, welcome.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. ODOM:  Good morning, Honorable Bush, 

         2          and the rest of the Cabinet. 

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We're not 

         4          Honorable.

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And the rest of the 

         6          Cabinet.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We're just the 

         8          rest of the Cabinet.

         9              MR. ODOM:  And you, too, Ms. --

        10              When you said make it short and sweet, 

        11          that's right up my alley. 

        12              So I won't -- it'll take longer than this.  

        13          I'm here just as Chairman of the Board of 

        14          Suwannee County, and -- and supportive of 

        15          Suwannee County. 

        16              That's why I'm here, in support of them.  

        17          And we are 100 percent agreeing that the mine 

        18          should be bought.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

        20              MR. ODOM:  And so that -- that is what we 

        21          are.  We're just trying to be a good neighbor 

        22          because Suwannee County does meet 

        23          Suwannee County along the Ichetucknee River.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely, Commissioner. 

        25              Secretary Harris.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Thank you.

         2              I'd like to ask you the same question, but 

         3          more directly to Suwannee, since that's the -- 

         4          if you're 100 percent in agreement, we all -- 

         5          we all are, that the mine needs to be 

         6          purchased. 

         7              What is the Commission's position on the 

         8          permitting of the cement mine -- or the cement 

         9          plant, or did -- you know, was that part of the 

        10          discussion for the approval of this contract -- 

        11              MR. ODOM:  That --

        12              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- negotiation.

        13              MR. ODOM:  About the permit being their 

        14          permit, you mean, being -- I think that's a 

        15          separate issue.

        16              SECRETARY HARRIS:  It's -- it's linked 

        17          in -- in the -- in this agreement.

        18              MR. ODOM:  I don't think that was the issue 

        19          brought up.  The -- the issue -- what I 

        20          understand is the -- the mine issue's a 

        21          separate issue than the -- than the air permit. 

        22              Is that --

        23              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Well, the settlement 

        24          deal says that the company -- if the -- the 

        25          company does not get the permit, then it -- it 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          doesn't have to sell the mine.  And so it's 

         2          just -- it's linked.

         3              MR. ODOM:  Well, if it's linked, we're 

         4          still in favor of it anyway.

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Okay.

         6              MR. ODOM:  Thank you.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Thank you.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  Mayor Ray Kirkland from 

         9          Lake City.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Mayor, welcome. 

        11              MR. KIRKLAND:  Thank you, sir. 

        12              Governor, members of the Cabinet.  Pleased 

        13          to be here on behalf of what I thought the 

        14          issue was, and that is that we support.

        15              I deal in my business an awful lot in 

        16          perception, and always have.  As a matter of 

        17          fact, I've been very close to mining.  My 

        18          livelihood was for 20 years for a phosphate 

        19          mining company. 

        20              I know what perception is, and I know that 

        21          I can't tell you anything about the techniques 

        22          and -- and technical parts of this.

        23              But I do know that from the people that 

        24          I've talked with in my city, that the 

        25          acquisition of the mine -- which again, I 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          thought was the purpose of this, and this is 

         2          the issue -- the acquisition would be in the 

         3          best interest of our state and our county, and 

         4          our city. 

         5              And in the interest of brevity, I hope 

         6          you'll give me some points for being short and 

         7          sweet.

         8              Thank you. 

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Mayor, you win lots of 

        10          points doing that.  I appreciate it. 

        11              Thank you.

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  One question 

        13          of the Mayor. 

        14              Since you've been in this business, sir, 

        15          the way it's -- it's presently drafted, and 

        16          Secretary Harris has stated, there is so many 

        17          conditions precedent that we may very well vote 

        18          today this item positive, and in two years from 

        19          now, the State is not going to own this mine. 

        20              So I mean, I think everybody should -- 

        21          who's out there, really wants this, should 

        22          really look at this issue.  Because you may not 

        23          have -- you may not be getting what you think 

        24          you're getting. 

        25              Because the State will not be driving the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          train.  The company will be driving the train.  

         2          So I think you should think about that. 

         3              I'm not saying it's not going to happen.  I 

         4          don't know.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Can I ask a 

         6          question though? 

         7              I recognize that, and I think that's an 

         8          important issue to know about. 

         9              But is the reason not to buy the mine 

        10          because that might happen?  I mean, that's 

        11          where I'm -- I'm having a balance problem.

        12              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think it's 

        13          probably at the end of the line for us to 

        14          discuss.  But I think a lot of people out here 

        15          do not know it was a linked issue. 

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yeah.

        17              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So that's -- 

        18          that seems to be the issue.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  I just think it needs to 

        20          be discussed.  I mean, we -- we're talking 

        21          about all the issues concerning the purchase of 

        22          the mine, which everyone believes is important, 

        23          and we can debate the -- the different 

        24          processes that we do that. 

        25              But it can't be left out that part -- that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          one of the conditions is -- is that -- is the 

         2          linkage of permitting the cement plant. 

         3              And that's -- I mean, there's -- we cannot 

         4          not permit it, it's my understanding, based on 

         5          the company's record.  DEP has looked at this. 

         6              But it's part of -- of this opportunity.  

         7          And so I think it needs to be discussed in --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well --

         9              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- all terms.  And -- 

        10          and if you're approving it, then you -- then I 

        11          just want to know that you understand that 

        12          you're saying that you support this, but with 

        13          the understanding that part of that deal is 

        14          the -- the permitting of -- of the mine.  And 

        15          if we -- if it's not permitted, then the 

        16          company can walk.

        17              MR. KIRKLAND:  Madam Secretary, may I 

        18          remind you then the -- in the former 

        19          dissertation here by our County Coordinator, he 

        20          mentioned that this is not something that just 

        21          developed. 

        22              But maybe three or even four years ago, 

        23          the -- the County of Columbia was interested in 

        24          purchasing this mine.

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I think -- I think, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Secretary, the other speakers that are going to 

         2          speak will probably address the linkage issue.  

         3          I'm just speculating on that. 

         4              And -- and I think that, Secretary Struhs, 

         5          if, when we're completed, or during this 

         6          process, if there needs to be additional 

         7          information on the -- the settlement and the 

         8          unique nature of what is being required for the 

         9          permitting of this, all the three or four 

        10          permits, I think it's appropriate to talk about 

        11          it. 

        12              I don't -- we're -- no one's playing any 

        13          games here.  This is -- it is linked.  And the 

        14          option is either we do it as a package, and the 

        15          Cabinet should consider it that way.  I don't 

        16          think we -- we sh-- we would be untruthful 

        17          in -- in -- you know, not addressing the issue 

        18          head-on if we -- if we adopted a policy, well, 

        19          this is just -- we're just buying a piece of 

        20          land here.  We're not.  We're doing more than 

        21          that. 

        22              And I think it's appropriate to -- to use 

        23          this period of time to discuss these things and 

        24          consider what the options are if we don't.  

        25          It's appropriate -- I'm glad you brought it up.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              SECRETARY HARRIS:  You know, and I just 

         2          wanted -- and I have a question for 

         3          Secretary Struhs, but we're concentrating so 

         4          much on -- on the appraisal process, I didn't 

         5          want to get into it. 

         6              But as -- when we're having the testimony 

         7          of the support from the counties from Suwannee 

         8          and others, I just wanted to get their feedback 

         9          if they were supportive if that was part of the 

        10          decision.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All right.

        12              MR. STRUHS:  Our next speaker -- in fact, 

        13          probably not a speaker, but just some folks who 

        14          wanted to be recognized:  Mr. Azell Nail, who 

        15          is the manager of Ichetucknee Springs State 

        16          Park. 

        17              And he brought with him various members of 

        18          the park's citizens support organization.

        19              Did you want to stand, please? 

        20              MR. NAIL:  Governor, Cabinet, folks come 

        21          along with me is Joan Shelton with the local 

        22          historic society in Fort White; Sam Cole, the 

        23          park biologist; Wesley Jones, the Assistant 

        24          Park Manager in Ichetucknee Springs; and 

        25          Gary Wilbur.  He is with the Chamber of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Commerce there in Fort White. 

         2              And Sheila McKenzie, who is President of 

         3          the CSO for Friends of the Ichetucknee; and 

         4          Chuck Brannaka, who is also a member of the CSO 

         5          for Ichetucknee. 

         6              Thank you.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Appreciate y'all coming.

         8              MR. STRUHS:  We -- we've tried as best as 

         9          possible to group the speakers into various 

        10          positions just to make it easier to follow the 

        11          conversations. 

        12              The following individuals, and there's a 

        13          long list of them -- we have one, two, three, 

        14          four, five, six -- we have 18 individuals who 

        15          would like to address you in opposition of this 

        16          agenda item. 

        17              And then we have approximately the same 

        18          number who would follow them in -- in support.

        19              And first up is Virginia --

        20              And I guess before we begin is if you want 

        21          to give us instructions in terms of how much 

        22          time --

        23              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Sure.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  -- you would like to -- 

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.  I think --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  -- allocate.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- if we could keep 

         3          everybody's remarks to -- to --

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  A minute.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- 3 or 4 -- you know, 3 or 

         6          4 minutes at the max.  And try to keep what's 

         7          said -- don't -- don't -- we don't have to 

         8          repeat over and over again. 

         9              If there are nuances that might add to 

        10          the -- the value of the conversation, that's 

        11          great. 

        12              And -- and I think, given the fact that I'm 

        13          sure Cabinet members will want to ask questions 

        14          as well, that will -- that may be extended.  

        15          But please respect that so that we all can 

        16          complete this.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Okay.  First up, 

        18          Virginia Seacrist. 

        19              And what I'm -- what I'm going to do, 

        20          Governor, is -- is -- is in the interest of 

        21          time, try to get a cue in place so that we can 

        22          move more expeditiously. 

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good morning.  Let's --

        24              MS. SEACRIST:  Yes.  Hi.  Sorry. 

        25              I'm Virginia Seacrist, and I'm representing 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          a -- approximately 10,000 or more people who 

         2          have signed petitions.

         3              Yes.

         4              You've seen these petitions before, 

         5          Governor Bush.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I have.

         7              MS. SEACRIST:  But I just wanted to show 

         8          you that we have, as you remember, over 

         9          10,000 signatures.  And I'm sure that if we 

        10          tried -- we stopped getting signatures when you 

        11          first denied the permit.  So many, many more 

        12          people are contacting me now.

        13              So I am -- I think I am speaking for the 

        14          public who loves the Ichetucknee River.  And I 

        15          appreciate being able to go first so that I can 

        16          try to cover everything that I think's 

        17          pertinent, and then those people who are 

        18          following me will give you the details.

        19              But I want to propose something different 

        20          today.  You know, we are involved in this legal 

        21          process, and we are in -- we're at war.  And I 

        22          am really a very peace-loving person, and 

        23          that's why I go to the Ichetucknee, as a matter 

        24          of fact, because it's my -- it's my spiritual 

        25          haven. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              And so I'd like to rise to a level above 

         2          war and into a spiritual level of maybe 

         3          compromise. 

         4              I will tell you that I have met with Joe 

         5          Anderson and his men.  And I've -- think that 

         6          I -- know that both you and David Struhs and 

         7          Joe Anderson and I, and all of us, love the 

         8          Ichetucknee River. 

         9              Because you canoed down it and took the 

        10          time, and I was very pleased that 

        11          Secretary Nelson came over to look at the whole 

        12          situation.  And I know that there's not a 

        13          person in this room who doesn't love the 

        14          Ichetucknee River.  And I think we all want to 

        15          protect it.

        16              So I'm suggesting that in a spirit of 

        17          compromise -- number one, I must say that 

        18          people are slow learners, and I'm a teacher and 

        19          I know that.  So I'm going to say what I have 

        20          to say first, and then I'm going to give some 

        21          background information, then I'm going to say 

        22          it again.

        23              All right.  I don't think you should 

        24          approve this deal, because it is a deal, 

        25          number one.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              We were not involved in this deal.  DEP and 

         2          Anderson's lawyers were involved in this deal.  

         3          As a matter of fact, Anderson's lawyers wrote 

         4          the deal.  And I wasn't -- I wasn't contacted, 

         5          nor were any of us who are concerned about the 

         6          river contacted. 

         7              As a matter of fact, we were called to the 

         8          head springs, and the deal was announced.  And 

         9          I guess I was really surprised, because we were 

        10          going to have a meeting in December for 

        11          two weeks to discuss, you know, the mercury 

        12          issue and all the other issues that are still 

        13          involved in the cement plant.

        14              But here we are with a -- with a situation 

        15          where if we do one thing that's good, we're 

        16          going to do something else that isn't good. 

        17              As a matter of fact, Joe Anderson is going 

        18          to give up one mine, and he's going to have 

        19          another mine, which is bigger, right bes-- the 

        20          same distance from the Ichetucknee River. 

        21              And he's going to, in addition, have a 

        22          cement plant, which we all know is going to 

        23          have emissions, and we all know that's in 

        24          court. 

        25              And if we could just stop fighting and 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          using lawyers, we would all realize, you know, 

         2          that whatever goes up into the air is going to 

         3          come down into the water. 

         4              The fish are already laden with mercury, 

         5          and that's just one of the things.  You know, 

         6          we have an ecotourist business here which is 

         7          already established. 

         8              And, Governor Bush, I have here the 

         9          Environment 21 magazine where you had your 

        10          candidate speech.  And this was a wonderful, 

        11          wonderful environmental magazine and issue. 

        12              I just want to reassure everybody in this 

        13          room that you care about the environment, 

        14          because you've said -- in this magazine, you 

        15          said, I don't -- I hope you don't mind.  I'm 

        16          just going to read a few quotes.

        17              First --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It was very eloquent, I'm 

        19          sure.

        20              MS. SEACRIST:  I'm sorry?

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sure it was very 

        22          eloquent.

        23              MS. SEACRIST:  It was.  And -- and, 

        24          you know -- well, anyway, I have faith in you, 

        25          and I have faith in everybody.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              So -- I heard you say on NPR just recently 

         2          the -- about the Everglades, that the 

         3          environment is the economy.  And that is also 

         4          true of the Ichetucknee area.  The environment 

         5          is the economy. 

         6              You suggested that the Brownfields 

         7          Redevelopment Act, the Act should help reduce 

         8          development pressures on Florida's limited 

         9          supply of greenfields, and that substainable 

        10          constr-- sustainable construction consists of 

        11          building structures and developments to new 

        12          standards for conservation of energy, water, 

        13          and other limited resources. 

        14              Clean water and air are limited resources.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Ms. Seacrist, can you come 

        16          to a close? 

        17              We're -- you're already past 5 minutes, 

        18          and --

        19              MS. SEACRIST:  Oh, I'm --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- so right off the bat, 

        21          we're already --

        22              MS. SEACRIST:  All right.  Okay. 

        23              Well, no one's going to repeat what I have 

        24          to say.

        25              You said what is needed is -- now is 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          government leadership and incentives to 

         2          encourage these smart practices. 

         3              I suggest that we need to give Joe Anderson 

         4          some incentive to move his cement plant from 

         5          where it is. 

         6              The -- I'm a member of the North Florida 

         7          Tourist -- Ecotourist Task Force, and there are 

         8          11 north Florida counties.  And lime rock is -- 

         9          lime rock is all over the counties. 

        10              If we could give him some incentive to move 

        11          his cement plant and to buy both mines.  Buy 

        12          both mines.  We want to protect the 

        13          Ichetucknee.  And that is how to do it.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        15              MS. SEACRIST:  That's the essence.  And 

        16          I think that you should -- you should form a 

        17          council that includes government, industry, and 

        18          those of us concerned about the river. 

        19              And Joe Anderson actually suggested this, 

        20          too --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        22              MS. SEACRIST:  -- as a monitoring -- 

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        24              MS. SEACRIST:  -- factor. 

        25              Thank you very much.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. STRUHS:  Okay. 

         2              MR. BRUDERLY:  Morning.

         3              I'm Dave Bruderly, and I'm here to speak to 

         4          the point that eight wrongs do not make a 

         5          right. 

         6              And I see eight -- at least eight things 

         7          wrong with this deal.  And I -- I've called it 

         8          appeasement, and I think that's a good term for 

         9          it.

        10              Virginia mentioned that folks are slow 

        11          learners.  Well, we went through this process 

        12          in Alachua County a couple of years ago with a 

        13          company called Florida Rock.  And what 

        14          Alachua County learned at that time was that we 

        15          have a long way to go before we start 

        16          integrating the concepts of industrial ecology 

        17          into the concepts of ecosystem management.

        18              I want to speak to the fact that I 

        19          appreciate the dilemma that Secretary Struhs is 

        20          in.  And he's been given a very difficult job.  

        21          And I think he's done a pretty good job for a 

        22          Yankee who just -- just moved down here, with 

        23          trying to understand how Florida ecosystems 

        24          work.  But he's still got a lot of learning to 

        25          do. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              I've been here since 1974, and I still 

         2          don't know everything that I think I know.  We 

         3          all have a lot of learning to do. 

         4              And one of the things that we've got a lot 

         5          of learning to do about is the impacts of the 

         6          cement industry on north -- north central 

         7          Florida.  And we have not done our homework on 

         8          studying the impacts of that industry on north 

         9          central Florida. 

        10              Hernando County, Alachua County, and now 

        11          Suwannee County are on a very short learning 

        12          curve.

        13              This particular cement plant requires 

        14          absolute assurance -- absolute assurance that 

        15          no harm shall be done, not only to the 

        16          Ichetucknee, but to the Santa Fe River and the 

        17          Suwannee.  These are Outstanding Florida 

        18          Waters. 

        19              And with all due respect to the Department, 

        20          I have yet to see any definitive 

        21          environmental -- comprehensive environmental 

        22          assessment on the impacts of the mine -- the 

        23          900-acre mine, which is the size of the mine, 

        24          I believe, and the associated cement plant, on 

        25          the Suwannee River system, including the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          estuary.  We're going to be -- permitting -- 

         2          we're permitting a cement plant that's going to 

         3          put out over 1,000 tons a year of 

         4          nitrogen oxides. 

         5              We've been beating up on the agriculture 

         6          industry and the septic tank folks to try to 

         7          reduce nitrogen discharges into the 

         8          ground water. 

         9              Well, in Tampa Bay, we've learned that 

        10          nitrogen also falls out of the sky.  

        11          Fifty percent of the loading to Tampa Bay is 

        12          nitrogen coming from the sky, from 

        13          air pollution, from power plants, from 

        14          automobiles, phosphate plants, and 

        15          cement plants. 

        16              We have not done our homework on that issue 

        17          of protecting the Outstanding Florida Waters of 

        18          the Suwannee estuary. 

        19              The mercury issue is in litigation.  I 

        20          submit to you that the linkage just caused by 

        21          that litigation is enough to kill this deal.  

        22          If the citizens prevail on the mercury issue, 

        23          and I think they will, then the Department will 

        24          have to modify the air construction permit in 

        25          some way to compensate for that. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              We can debate -- I don't know the details 

         2          of that.  That's to be determined.  But that 

         3          could queer any deal that is -- any settlement, 

         4          any purchase agreement that you all decide to 

         5          move forward with.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So it's -- that's an 

         7          interesting -- it's a good point, that if these 

         8          permits are not issued, they're challenged, 

         9          several of them are in court -- or one of them 

        10          at least is in court if -- if they're not 

        11          granted, this -- this won't go forward.

        12              MR. BRUDERLY:  That's -- that's correct.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's --

        14              MR. BRUDERLY:  I would submit to you also 

        15          that the Department has done the best job it -- 

        16          it thinks it can do on the air permit for the 

        17          cement plant in terms of technology analysis 

        18          for emission controls and so forth.

        19              I would, however, submit that the 

        20          Department has only followed the letter of the 

        21          law -- very narrowly, I might add -- and has 

        22          not pushed the envelope on doing everything 

        23          that it could do to protect this pristine air 

        24          shed -- relatively pristine air shed from 

        25          degradation from emissions. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              We failed to do that in Alachua County.  

         2          And as a result, the Alachua County Commission 

         3          appointed an -- a volunteer board of nine 

         4          professionals, academics, consultants, and 

         5          industry representatives, who just yesterday 

         6          released the findings and recommendations on 

         7          the state of air quality in Alachua County, in 

         8          addition to all of our surrounding neighbors, 

         9          including Suwannee County. 

        10              And what this tells everybody is that all 

        11          these counties are interconnected when it comes 

        12          to air pollution, because the wind blows in 

        13          many different directions.  And we are dealing 

        14          with a regional issue. 

        15              And if we want to keep our skies blue and 

        16          clear, we need to -- we need to start working 

        17          in that direction.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Doctor, can you please wrap 

        19          up --

        20              MR. BRUDERLY:  So I'm going -- I'm going to 

        21          give you guys a copy of this report.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  Thank you.

        23              MR. BRUDERLY:  The other major issue that 

        24          this -- this process brings to -- to light is 

        25          the -- is the weakness of the State's mining 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          regulations and laws. 

         2              You are going to appraise a mine as if 

         3          there was no threat to the Ichetucknee.  Every 

         4          cubic meter, every ton of rock in this Anderson 

         5          mine will be appraised as -- at its full value.

         6              There are no restrictions in place today 

         7          that would prohibit them from mining rock that 

         8          is over the Trace. 

         9              And I submit we have the cart before the 

        10          horse.  I support what Ms. Seacrist said.  

        11          I think we should basically kill this deal and 

        12          go back to the negotiating table, and bring 

        13          Sierra Club and Save Our Suwannee, who are not 

        14          part of the negotiated settlement, bring them 

        15          to the table, and let all of us put all of the 

        16          issues on the table, and do an environ-- a 

        17          proper ecosystem management that includes 

        18          industrial ecology, and do a comprehensive 

        19          environmental review of this whole banana, this 

        20          whole enchilada, before we go out and spend a 

        21          lot of money on appraisals, and all this other 

        22          stuff, which may end up buying us a pig in a 

        23          poke.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        25              MR. BRUDERLY:  I also submit we haven't -- 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          I also haven't heard anybody say anything about 

         2          due diligence. 

         3              And if you're buying an industrial site, 

         4          there's a little law out there called 

         5          Comprehensive Environmental Response and 

         6          Liability called CERCLA, Superfund, hazardous 

         7          waste. 

         8              What are we buying in the way of long term 

         9          environmental liability from existing 

        10          contamination? 

        11              I don't know.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, sir.

        13              Thank you.

        14              Who's next? 

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Michael Samuels.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Hello, Michael.

        17              DR. SAMUELS:  Hi, Jeb.

        18              How are you doing?

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Most of us are e-mail 

        20          buddies.  So -- 

        21              DR. SAMUELS:  Yeah. 

        22              It's -- I really appreciate the ability to 

        23          be here, and speak to you, Jeb Bush, Governor, 

        24          and Cabinet. 

        25              And also to Suwannee County and 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Columbia County officials, lovers of the river, 

         2          people who are here.

         3              I'm a physician.  I've worked with cancer 

         4          patients, people with respiratory diseases.  

         5          For 30 years -- I live in San Francisco, which 

         6          is -- I can't see the Ichetucknee River from my 

         7          house in Marin County. 

         8              I was brought down here by the Florida AIM, 

         9          Arts and Medicine Department at University of 

        10          Florida, Shands, where I'm on the Board to help 

        11          with art -- with leukemia in children, and was 

        12          introduced to the wonderful Ichetucknee, and 

        13          fell in love with it. 

        14              I've written 17 books, one of them on 

        15          environmental health with Sierra Club called  

        16          Well Body, Well Earth.

        17              In the process of that book, I visited tire 

        18          burning cement mines in England and in Texas.  

        19          And I can tell you that no matter what the 

        20          figures that come down in that sheet of paper 

        21          to the DEP for the criteria pollutants, being 

        22          next to a tire burning cement plant is a very 

        23          different experience. 

        24              They're all built in magnificent valleys 

        25          with creeks and streams coming down, because 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that's where the limestone is.  They're all 

         2          beautiful of where the cement plant comes in. 

         3              All of the health studies -- no matter what 

         4          temperature the stuff is burned, a tire now is 

         5          not made of rubber.  It's made of nylon and, as 

         6          all -- we all know, thousands of compounds. 

         7              When those compounds are burned and -- on 

         8          my website,, we've got all 

         9          of these compounds listed and their subtle 

        10          mixtures and how they cause human cancer. 

        11              That stuff goes up in the air, it peaks at 

        12          11 miles in its fall, goes 47 imperceptible, 

        13          and then the plumes start.  And if you've seen 

        14          my book, Well Body, Well Earth, the plumes come 

        15          from Cleveland to Maine. 

        16              They go up like a mountain and come down.  

        17          And that's the acid rain. 

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So --

        19              DR. SAMUELS:  So that --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Doctor, would you then 

        21          suggest that there is no place for a cement 

        22          plant in any place, I mean, based on that? 

        23              DR. SAMUELS:  I would say that right now, 

        24          of the several industries in the world that are 

        25          the most polluting, and the most difficult to 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          control, and the most -- most in need of 

         2          research, and by research, tire burning cement 

         3          plants is a top five. 

         4              And they also burn all over the world toxic 

         5          waste. 

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Would you -- would you --

         7              DR. SAMUELS:  Now, the Anderson plant has 

         8          said it's not going to burn toxic wastes.  

         9          It's -- tires is tire derived fuel, TDF.  Toxic 

        10          waste is the next step. 

        11              There's about 21 in the United States that 

        12          burn toxic wastes.  And this is part of a 

        13          recycling approach.  These are not 

        14          incinerators, they're not kilns, they have no 

        15          regulations on them.

        16              I think that -- there's two issues here, 

        17          and the -- we're here today because of the 

        18          acquisition of the mine. 

        19              But the first issue is is fate has chosen 

        20          to put this mine at the intersection of the 

        21          Ichetucknee, Suwannee, and Santa Fe River.  

        22          This is really, really the reason -- I think if 

        23          it had put it somewhere up in the country, the 

        24          whole thing would have gone unnoticed. 

        25              That's sad because I think this is -- 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          they're dangerous industries. 

         2              Where they've been in England -- solid 

         3          studies in both England and Texas have shown 

         4          asthma, emphysema, lung disease, lung disease 

         5          in children, and cancer all go up. 

         6              No matter what the levels that -- that 

         7          wonderful Secretary Struhs has done.  I know by 

         8          law he's got to permit that plant if those five 

         9          levels meet DEP. 

        10              But this is such a more complicated issue 

        11          than that, and there will be cancer and 

        12          emphysema and asthma in the surrounding 

        13          counties, and probably as this builds up, from 

        14          Tallahassee to Jacksonville, because those 

        15          plumes go from Cleveland to Maine.  The acid 

        16          rain in Maine is from those plumes. 

        17              A plume is a -- the reason the tall stacks 

        18          are there is they put the stuff coming out, 

        19          which is vaporized, so we breathe it, and it 

        20          dissolves in water. 

        21              A tire is turned into air and water.  And 

        22          that stuff blows above the grass, so it doesn't 

        23          just fall, it goes at the first layer of air. 

        24              And that's why the peak studies in England 

        25          from the tire burning plumes shown the massive 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          stuff falls right about where the Iche is.  So 

         2          129 pounds of mercury --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you --

         4              DR. SAMUELS:  -- is going to go into the 

         5          Iche.

         6              In San Francisco Bay, they only allow 

         7          100 pounds per polluter.  In the State of 

         8          Maine, they only allow 100 pounds, polluter.  

         9          Because mercury is bioaccumulated.

        10              So that my -- my basic position here is 

        11          that -- I think the major threat to the Iche is 

        12          the cement plant, not the mine.  I think 

        13          they're linked, they're married, they're stuck 

        14          together like lovers.  We -- we can't take them 

        15          apart, the deal didn't take them apart. 

        16              I tremendously respect and honor the work 

        17          that you guys are doing in dealing with this.  

        18          The attempt to stop it by the previous 

        19          environmental record was a wonderful heart 

        20          raiser for the people involved. 

        21              I think it illustrated your tremendous 

        22          desire to protect both the river and the 

        23          environment. 

        24              I also agree with Virginia.  I think 

        25          that -- I don't think it's in Anderson's best 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          interest to put this mine in this place for its 

         2          whole career future. 

         3              That's -- if that plant has to be built, it 

         4          should be built and regulated to the best of 

         5          its ability in an industrial area away from 

         6          these resources.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, 

         8          Doctor.  Thank you for coming.

         9              DR. SAMUELS:  Thank you very much for --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Nice meeting you in person.

        11              DR. SAMUELS:  It's really nice seeing all 

        12          of you in person. 

        13              David, nice meeting you, and --

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Thank you, Doctor.

        15              DR. SAMUELS:  And my website's 

        16 is open to all of you.  I'd 

        17          love to hear from all of you, including 

        18          Joe Anderson, the writers, everybody. 

        19              See it --

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who's next? 

        21              MR. STRUHS:  Dr. Max Wilson is next.  A 

        22          property owner in the area.  

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm sorry.  Your name, sir? 

        24              DR. WILSON:  Good morning.

        25              MR. STRUHS:  Max Wilson.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              DR. WILSON:  My name is Max Wilson.

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome.

         3              DR. WILSON:  I'm very happy to be here, to 

         4          have the opportunity to appear before the 

         5          Governor and the Cabinet.

         6              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Can he speak closer? 

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you get closer to the 

         8          microphone, sir? 

         9              DR. WILSON:  I've been a --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There you go.

        11              DR. WILSON:  -- a citizen of Florida since 

        12          I was born here in 1932.  Some of you may have 

        13          heard of Lake Okeechobee down that way, 

        14          you know. 

        15              And my father in 1920 got his drinking 

        16          water by walking out in the lake and filling a 

        17          bucket and walking back.

        18              So I recognize the awesome responsibility 

        19          that -- that the Cabinet has in making these 

        20          decisions.  I recognize that you function in 

        21          discharging these responsibilities in an arena 

        22          of -- of legislation, rules, regulations, and 

        23          law. 

        24              But I'm going to ask today that we all 

        25          consider another rule in making decisions, and 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that is the rule of common sense as mentioned 

         2          by --

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Representative Stansel.

         4              DR. WILSON:  -- Stansel, and so wonderfully 

         5          exercised by King Solomon, and seems to have 

         6          disappeared from our society in the last 

         7          several years.

         8              I'm here to speak on behalf of the 

         9          Ichetucknee River and the Santa Fe River and 

        10          the Suwannee River, these magnificent creations 

        11          of God, who he saw fit to place in 

        12          north central Florida. 

        13              The government of the State of Florida saw 

        14          fit to create it and preserve it in a State 

        15          park several years ago for the pleasure of the 

        16          citizens of not only our state, other states, 

        17          everybody.

        18              And I realize that man has done wonderful 

        19          things with his ingenuity; and government, 

        20          business, and individuals have created many 

        21          things that have improved the quality of life.

        22              Also with good intentions, they have also 

        23          done many things that turned out to be an 

        24          ecological catastrophe.  At least that's what 

        25          they tell me about Kissimmee River, and my 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          clean Lake Okeechobee.  And now we're embarking 

         2          on restoring the Kissimmee River. 

         3              I suggest to you that man is ingenious, 

         4          creative, and can do wonders.  But I do not 

         5          think he can recreate the Kissimmee River, 

         6          Mother Nature.

         7              We've all read recently about the water 

         8          table in north Florida being at a ten-year 

         9          level low.  We hear people coming from the rest 

        10          of the state commenting on the critical water 

        11          situation in Florida.

        12              We've heard testimony -- you've heard more 

        13          than I have.  I'm pretty dumb about all this.  

        14          But the experts have testified that, oh, this 

        15          mining and so forth won't hurt anything; and 

        16          other experts, equal experts, have testified 

        17          that it will.

        18              Common sense tells me that if the County of 

        19          Columbia in which I live is going to limit the 

        20          density of the Ichetucknee Trace to 5 -- to 

        21          10 acres, why didn't they -- why do they limit 

        22          it to 10 acres elsewhere else?  Why not limit 

        23          it to 5 acres?

        24              Common sense tells me, if you're going to 

        25          acquire one mine in the same location, you need 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          to acquire both.

         2              Common sense tells me that economically, 

         3          any company can place a cement plant and a -- 

         4          and a mine in an area that is not threatening 

         5          to a sensitive ecological treasure.

         6              Thank you.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much, sir.

         8              Who's next? 

         9              DR. WILSON:  Phone number?  What'd I say?

        10              MR. STRUHS:  We ask that of everyone, by 

        11          the way.

        12              (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you don't want to give 

        14          it, don't.

        15              MR. STRUHS:  Anthony Cirigliano, please.

        16              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  Thank you, Governor, 

        17          members of the Cabinet. 

        18              This is -- this is a welcome opportunity to 

        19          go over some numbers I've -- I've investigated 

        20          regarding the three parcels. 

        21              You're only purchasing three parcels of 

        22          property in this Kirby mine vicinity.  It's an 

        23          incomplete purchase at best.  I have a diagram 

        24          up there that delineates the three Anderson 

        25          properties. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              One of them is 120 acres.  It's got a just 

         2          value for land of $120,000.  It's got a class 

         3          value in which the -- the owner pays taxes of 

         4          $30,240. 

         5              It's got a second parcel that's 80 acres.  

         6          Its land use is nonagricultural, it's got a 

         7          just value of $96,000.  The applicant pays 

         8          taxes on $96,000.

         9              It's got a third parcel of land of 

        10          150 acres where it appears that the major 

        11          mining operations are taking place.  It's got a 

        12          just value of $159,000.  The applicants pay 

        13          taxes on $48,000.

        14              Obviously the total here only equates to 

        15          $375,000 of land value.

        16              (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)

        17              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  They pay taxes on $174,000 

        18          of taxable value.  How we got to 20 million 

        19          remains a mystery.  And that mystery we need 

        20          experts for. 

        21              General appraisers do not have the 

        22          capabilities to appraise business damages that 

        23          we're looking at in this case.  I -- please 

        24          ensure that the appraisers selected have those 

        25          capabilities.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              One -- one other issue is that, as I 

         2          indicated, those are three parcels.  I believe 

         3          there's another one located right next to it.  

         4          It's owned by Kirby Development Company.  That 

         5          is an 80-acre site. 

         6              It's got a land value -- and this is 

         7          unbelievable to me, an 80-acre site -- of 

         8          $10,120 that taxes are paid on.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Wow.

        10              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  Also to the north of the 

        11          site is a 296-acre parcel, about 80 percent 

        12          crop land, about 10 to 15 percent trees, and 

        13          what appears to be a rock transfer station on 

        14          the lower southern right-hand corner of the 

        15          property. 

        16              I'm -- you know, one of the questions that 

        17          I have is:  Where is Anderson going to move his 

        18          mining operation? 

        19              Is he going to move it across the street?  

        20          I've heard that the County has regulations that 

        21          won't allow that.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's right.

        23              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  Hopefully they're in 

        24          place. 

        25              But where will it go?  Will it go to the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Ichetucknee? 

         2              Will it go to the specific site where the 

         3          cement plant is proposed?  Are we going to 

         4          increase the mining operation just as close to 

         5          that river as before? 

         6              What are we really -- really accomplishing 

         7          by tying the cement plant to this purchase? 

         8              If there are health, safety, and welfare 

         9          issues associated with this property, then the 

        10          State should enact eminent domain processes. 

        11              DOT does it all the time to enlarge our 

        12          roads.  Why not in this case? 

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much, sir.

        14              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  Thank you very much, sir.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thanks for coming. 

        16              MR. STRUHS:  Governor --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Where is the -- where -- is 

        18          there a -- that's an excellent question about 

        19          the mining operation. 

        20              Is there any -- been any conversations 

        21          about --

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Yes.  The Commissioners from 

        23          Columbia County -- I'm sorry, the 

        24          Commissioners --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I know that. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              But I'm talking about where -- is this 

         2          mining operation necessary -- is it directly 

         3          related to the cement plant in terms of raw 

         4          material? 

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Yes.

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Where will the mining 

         8          material come from?

         9              MR. STRUHS:  At the site where they're 

        10          producing the cement. 

        11              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Got a --

        12              MR. STRUHS:  At the new site.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Which they already have a 

        14          permit for.

        15              MR. STRUHS:  It's in --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Another mining operation.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Well -- yes.  It's -- it's in 

        18          the works.

        19              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Secretary --

        20              MR. CIRIGLIANO:  I just might like to add 

        21          that they use that mine for road building 

        22          processes, not for the cement plant.  The mine 

        23          that is -- is proposed for purchase. 

        24              My question was:  Where does that -- where 

        25          is that facility now going to be placed, that  


                  January 25, 2000
         1          road mining --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We'll have it answered by 

         3          the end of the afternoon.  I'm curious, too.  

         4          It's a good question. 

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  But -- I have a question 

         6          just as a -- on follow-up on that other -- on 

         7          the Kirby mining location.  That's -- that's 

         8          the Santa Fe Basin, right, not the Ichetucknee?  

         9          It's the Santa Fe.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, ma'am, that's correct.  

        11          It's an entirely different basin.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Who's next? 

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, if -- if I could 

        14          just interject for -- for point of 

        15          clarification. 

        16              Some issues were raised in -- in this last 

        17          speaker's presentation regarding the 

        18          considerations that would be included in the 

        19          appraised value of this -- of this property. 

        20              I'm -- I think it's important to understand 

        21          that as they do their appraisal work, they're 

        22          not appraising this as if they were purchasing 

        23          the business.  And they're not appraising this 

        24          in terms of what the property's potential 

        25          real estate development potential might be. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              Rather, they are limiting themselves only 

         2          to the actual value of the resource, in this 

         3          case, the -- the remaining rock.  So it's a -- 

         4          it's a very conservative approach to -- to the 

         5          appraisal, which obviously works in -- in the 

         6          State's interest.

         7              Having said that, the next speaker is 

         8          Linda Pollini.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome. 

        10              MS. POLLINI:  My name's Linda Pollini.  I'm 

        11          from Archer, Florida. 

        12              It came to my attention today, and I'd like 

        13          to just read this off the agenda today for some 

        14          people who hadn't read the whole thing. 

        15              It says:  Closing is contingent upon 

        16          Suwannee American Cement Company, Inc., 

        17          receiving all State and local authorizations to 

        18          construct a cement plant in Suwannee County.

        19              Okay.  These are my comments: 

        20              The purchase of this mine is a good -- good 

        21          idea, except for one item:  The linking of the 

        22          sale to the permitting of a cement plant 

        23          3 miles from the State Park exit. 

        24              Coal and tire burning factories are major 

        25          contributors to the global problem of acid rain 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          because they release hundreds of pounds of 

         2          sulfur dioxide every day.

         3              A recent TV interview with a representative 

         4          from Anderson Columbia revealed that he had 

         5          just returned from a tour of a Swiss plant that 

         6          had state of the art technology installed.

         7              So now he is aware of how a clean plant 

         8          should be constructed.  But in the next breath, 

         9          admitted that they would not be installing this 

        10          technology in the newly proposed plant by the 

        11          Ichetucknee. 

        12              European count-- excuse me, European 

        13          countries have this technology because the air 

        14          is so bad over there, acid rain is eating away 

        15          at the famous monuments in Rome, and the 

        16          Black Forest in Germany is no longer a forest, 

        17          but hills covered with barren stumps. 

        18              Even in our own country, a friend told me 

        19          of a recent trip through the mountains of 

        20          Tennessee.  In Rabin Gap, he asked a 

        21          park ranger why many of the trees were dead.  

        22          And he replied:  Acid rain. 

        23              Unless you install the European technology 

        24          that would reduce the sulfur dioxide 

        25          significantly, you are contributing to this 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          global problem. 

         2              Do not link this sale to the permitting of 

         3          another smokestack polluting industry.  I urge 

         4          you to find a way to stop plants and other coal 

         5          and tire burning factories from -- from 

         6          contributing to this global problem. 

         7              Reject the deal if it is linked to the 

         8          cement plan permit.

         9              And also, as a sidelight, 200 doctors in 

        10          Alachua County have signed a letter of concern 

        11          of the health problems associated with these 

        12          plants.

        13              Thank you.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much for 

        15          coming.

        16              Who's next?

        17              MR. STRUHS:  The next speaker is 

        18          Angela Pate, and we were not able to identify 

        19          her. 

        20              Is she in the audience?

        21              MS. ABBOTT:  No.  She's not here.

        22              MR. STRUHS:  I'm sorry.  She's not? 

        23              MS. ABBOTT:  No.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  She's not available. 

        25              So the next speaker is Burkett Neely.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon. 

         2              MR. NEELY:  It's afternoon already.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Oh, yeah.

         4              MR. NEELY:  My name is Burkett Neely.  And 

         5          I'm speaking as a resident of Columbia County, 

         6          and on behalf of 25 property owners that live 

         7          along the Santa Fe River in both Columbia and 

         8          Gilchrist County. 

         9              This group's not formally organized, but we 

        10          do have meetings and discuss issues that impact 

        11          our community and the resources that we so much 

        12          enjoy.

        13              Before my retirement in 1989, I was a 

        14          manager of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services 

        15          Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge for 

        16          17 years. 

        17              And General Butterworth may remember me as 

        18          one of the original plaintiffs in the 

        19          Everglades lawsuit.

        20              This -- this group of property owners are 

        21          greatly concerned about the health of the 

        22          environment, the impacts that -- from the 

        23          proposed construction of the cement plant, 

        24          which is linked to the purchase of the existing 

        25          gravel pit, rock pit.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              This linkage seems to be holding the State 

         2          in a -- a hostage for 27 million dollars in 

         3          order to get their permit.  We have a problem 

         4          with that.

         5              I think there are several questions that 

         6          you need to consider before you decide what 

         7          you're going to do. 

         8              Is the State of Florida and its residents 

         9          getting a good deal on the offer to sell the 

        10          Anderson mine?

        11              There seems to be much confusion over 

        12          exactly what deal has been negotiated between 

        13          DEP and Anderson. 

        14              Is this deal in the best interest of the 

        15          people and the resources of Florida? 

        16              What about the other mine, the Kirby mine, 

        17          that's right adjacent to the Anderson mine, is 

        18          it not going to be purchased and all mining in 

        19          a sensitive area be stopped? 

        20              Has the mining issue been studied 

        21          adequately, or are we buying a pig in a poke? 

        22              Who determined the price for the swap and 

        23          the permit -- the swap, the permit for the 

        24          mine? 

        25              We're concerned about the decisions that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          have been made without having all the answers 

         2          to -- having answers to all the questions.  We 

         3          urge you not to make a hasty decision on this 

         4          issue until you can be assured that the people 

         5          of Florida are getting a fair deal and that the 

         6          resources and environment of a very popular 

         7          recreational area are fully protected. 

         8              Don't take a chance, because if you guess 

         9          wrong, it's irreversible.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for coming, sir.

        11              MR. STRUHS:  Tom Greenhalgh. 

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, Tom. 

        13              MR. GREENHALGH:  Good afternoon, 

        14          Governor Bush, and Cabinet. 

        15              My name is Tom Greenhalgh.  I'm a Florida 

        16          licensed professional geologist.

        17              I would like for you to think about it a 

        18          minute.  I've worked for 15 years on 

        19          groundwater issues in the state of Florida. 

        20              In my professional opinion, I don't think 

        21          that the mine is going to be a great 

        22          environmental threat to the Ichetucknee system.  

        23          There's going to be a lot of discussion 

        24          following and the people that are in support of 

        25          that. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              And what I would like to see, if -- if 

         2          possible was is a -- the technical and 

         3          scientific staff in the -- the Department 

         4          actually get together, or have a small group of 

         5          them get together and decide, really is there 

         6          an issue associated with that.

         7              I spoke before the Cabinet Aides.  And when 

         8          I was there, Mr. Stevenson indicated that he 

         9          had taken a water sample from that quarry, and 

        10          it had 7 milligrams per liter nitrogen in it. 

        11              I did a quick calculation this morning 

        12          based on a rough area in that mine, and came up 

        13          with 142,767 pounds of nitrate potentially in 

        14          the water in that pit. 

        15              And the reason I bring up that issue is is 

        16          there's a lot of things that are going to 

        17          affect the springs in Florida, not only 

        18          Ichetucknee. 

        19              But if you're aware of it, there's a 

        20          little -- about 200 springs right there in the 

        21          Suwannee basin. 

        22              And if you want to spend money or authorize 

        23          the expenditure of money, I think it would be 

        24          much more important to address the 

        25          contamination issues that are going to actually 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          affect the groundwater, and then ultimately 

         2          those springs, and then surface water bodies. 

         3              So what I'd like to say is:  I don't think 

         4          you should purchase it, and I would like to see 

         5          you convene a group of knowledgeable 

         6          professionals in that field to advise you on 

         7          it.  And that's -- that's how I conclude my 

         8          statements.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  Joe Little. 

        11              MR. LITTLE:  Governor, members of the 

        12          Cabinet, I'm Joe Little.  I'm from Gainesville.  

        13          I'm a lover of the Ichetucknee River.  I oppose 

        14          the linkage that is before you. 

        15              I cannot provide you any of the technical, 

        16          geological, ecological, biological details.  I 

        17          want to pose this question as a matter of 

        18          perspective.  This is a kind of a trick.

        19              I would suggest, other than perhaps people 

        20          behind that podium, no one knows who 

        21          William Bloxham was here, no one knows who 

        22          William Lamar was here, no one here knows who 

        23          William Reynolds were.  And perhaps some of you 

        24          don't know who they were. 

        25              They were gentlemen who in the year 1900 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          had an opportunity to institute plans to 

         2          protect the Everglades, to protect the 

         3          development of our beaches in Florida, to 

         4          protect all of our pristine waters in Florida, 

         5          and who didn't do it.

         6              They were the Governor, the 

         7          Attorney General, and the Controller of the 

         8          State of Florida in the year 1900.  I'm sorry, 

         9          I don't know who the other officials were at 

        10          that time.

        11              It's hard to fault those gentlemen, because 

        12          no one was here 100 years ago saying:  We have 

        13          got this threat to these valuable resources of 

        14          our state that we can now do something about 

        15          that will forever be lost if we don't.

        16              You are in a different position.  We have 

        17          blessed few precious resources remaining in a 

        18          pristine state in Florida.  One of them is the 

        19          Ichetucknee River.

        20              To put a cement plant within sight of the 

        21          Ichetucknee River is a desecration.  It's a 

        22          desecration you can protect.

        23              So I say, members of the Cabinet, and the 

        24          Governor, direct your staff to do what is 

        25          necessary to protect this resource, and those 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          of equal sanctity in our state, and do it now. 

         2              I oppose the linkage, and I respectfully 

         3          submit that you, Governor, and you, members of 

         4          the Cabinet, should do so as well.

         5              Thank you.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

         7              MR. STRUHS:  Is Lars Anderson here, please? 

         8              MR. ANDERSON:  Hello.

         9              Thank you for allowing me to speak.  

        10              My name is Lars Anderson.  I'm a river 

        11          guide and an historian with the 

        12          Adventure Outpost in High Springs. 

        13              As a river guide, I'm one of the hundreds 

        14          of thousands of Floridians who earn their 

        15          living in the state of Florida -- in the 

        16          State's thriving ecotourism industry. 

        17              Thirty years ago, there was no such thing 

        18          as ecotourism.  Jobs like mine did not exist.  

        19          But in the past few decades, people's 

        20          understanding and appreciation of nature have 

        21          grown at a fantastic rate. 

        22              The once non-existent ecotourism industry 

        23          is now a major part of Florida's economy.

        24              Today the State of Florida is working hard 

        25          and investing a lot of money to promote the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          real Florida.  And I can tell you as a guide on 

         2          our -- on over 30 Florida waterways, there's no 

         3          better example of the real Florida than the 

         4          Ichetucknee River.

         5              For me personally, as an ecotourism 

         6          provider, I'm concerned about the outcome of 

         7          these hearings and about the proposed cement 

         8          plant and the mining operations taking place in 

         9          the Ichetucknee Trace.  But it is as a 

        10          historian that I am very worried. 

        11              Our state is littered with the ruins of a 

        12          lot of bad ideas of the past.  The drainage 

        13          systems of south Florida, the 

        14          George Kirkpatrick Damn on the Oklawaha River, 

        15          the dikes and canals on Paynes Prairie, just to 

        16          name a few.

        17              These are -- all stand as obsolete 

        18          monuments to some really bad ideas of the past. 

        19              But these weren't evil schemes thought up 

        20          by evil people.  They were ambitious projects 

        21          undertaken by well-meaning, hardworking people 

        22          who simply did not have all the facts. 

        23              They did not understand the complexities of 

        24          the Everglades water flow, or the uniqueness of 

        25          the importance of ecosystems such as the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Oklawaha River and Paynes Prairie.  They were 

         2          working under a cloud of ignorance.

         3              Today we can no longer claim ignorance.  We 

         4          know how complex and sensitive places like the 

         5          Ichetucknee River are.  In 1970, the State 

         6          acknowledged their awareness of this fact when 

         7          they purchased the land around 

         8          Ichetucknee Springs and made it into a State 

         9          park. 

        10              And last year, over 150,000 visitors, both 

        11          local, and from other states and overseas, 

        12          showed that they, too, appreciate the 

        13          Ichetucknee.

        14              Two years ago I had the privilege of taking 

        15          a writer from National Geographic down the 

        16          Ichetucknee.  I was surprised when I met her to 

        17          learn that she had been sent all the way from 

        18          England to write about Florida. 

        19              I was even more surprised that she had 

        20          heard a lot about the Ichetucknee and knew that 

        21          this was a place she had to see as part of her 

        22          article.

        23              Another subject we know more about than our 

        24          predecessors is air pollution and 

        25          water pollution.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you --

         2              MR. ANDERSON:  We've gained a lot of new 

         3          understanding -- 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- close, sir?

         5              Can you wrap it up? 

         6              MR. ANDERSON:  Oh, okay. 

         7              So, please, let's learn from the mistakes 

         8          of the past, let's use the wisdom we've 

         9          accumulated; and at the same time, acknowledge 

        10          that there's a lot we do not know. 

        11              We are running out of the real Florida.  We 

        12          no longer have a surplus of natural areas to 

        13          experiment and play politics with. 

        14              This should not be a choice of one or the 

        15          other, of either allowing the cement plant to 

        16          be built or allowing mining to continue in the 

        17          Ichetucknee Trace. 

        18              These are both bad ideas, and we all know 

        19          it.  So please do not allow the cement plant to 

        20          be built, and let's stop the mining on 

        21          Ichetucknee Trace.

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you for coming.

        23              MR. STRUHS:  Susie Caplowe, please.

        24              Good morning, Susie.  How are you?

        25              MS. CAPLOWE:  Good morning.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon, Susie.

         2              MS. CAPLOWE:  Good afternoon, Governor and 

         3          Cabinet.

         4              My name is Susie Caplowe.  I'm here today 

         5          speaking for Kathy Cantwell, who is a resident 

         6          in Gainesville.  She's the local Sierra Club 

         7          Suwannee/St. Johns Conservation Chair, and she 

         8          couldn't make it here today. 

         9              I do have a -- a statement from her that 

        10          I've given to your Aides, and I'll hand it up 

        11          to you now.

        12              As you know, you've had communication from 

        13          us before that while we support the purchase of 

        14          the mine, we don't like the linkage of the 

        15          purchase of this mine to the permitting of the 

        16          air permit.

        17              And my understanding today is that 

        18          David Bruderly handed out this report to you 

        19          today -- 

        20              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, he did.

        21              MS. CAPLOWE:  -- which Kathy was cochair 

        22          of. 

        23              And in her statement today that I will give 

        24          to you, she discusses a lot of the serious -- 

        25          the health effects and -- it's a little bit 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          technical, and I'm not going to go into it 

         2          because I'm not an expert.  But it does say 

         3          that the air quality will be impaired by this, 

         4          and you need to look at it seriously.

         5              And it's unfortunate that DEP has sort of 

         6          tied your hands today, and we don't understand 

         7          where it broke down within the -- the process 

         8          that they had to -- that they didn't have the 

         9          environmental regulatory protection, you know, 

        10          to deny the permit -- I'm not making that 

        11          clear. 

        12              Let me -- we're concerned that DEP 

        13          apparently did not have the regulatory 

        14          authority it needed to enforce environmental 

        15          and public health protections, and they, 

        16          therefore, felt compelled to cut this deal to 

        17          negotiate this settlement before you today.  

        18          And we don't understand where that went wrong.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        20              MS. CAPLOWE:  Thank you.

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much. 

        22              MR. STRUHS:  Thanks, Susie.

        23              Mr. Bill Ogle. 

        24              MR. OGLE:  Governor, members of the 

        25          Cabinet, thank you very much.  I'm a lawyer, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          and I'll be brief.

         2              (Attorney General Butterworth exited the 

         3          room.) 

         4              MR. OGLE:  First I want to thank all of 

         5          you, and especially General Butterworth -- 

         6          I'm sorry he's not here to hear this. 

         7              But he and Diana Sawaya-Crane, John Rimes 

         8          of his department, have been courageous in 

         9          their help of us in the land use case which we 

        10          are fighting now in the Circuit Court, and in 

        11          the -- now in the appellate court system of the 

        12          State of Florida to try to stop the use of this 

        13          land for a cement manufacturing plant.

        14              Some questions have been raised in that 

        15          regard.  I'd like to answer them, because I 

        16          know a little bit about -- about what was said 

        17          in the State court trial a few months ago. 

        18              And we found out for the first time that 

        19          they are going to actually be blasting at the 

        20          site, which is now proposed for the cement 

        21          plant, to -- to bring out over a million tons 

        22          of lime rock annually for 50 years.

        23              We had not known that before, and perhaps 

        24          you had not known that as well.

        25              And what's ironic about this particular 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          case is that even though people from all over 

         2          the world treasure and use the 

         3          Ichetucknee Springs -- and all over the 

         4          state of Florida, certainly -- there is no 

         5          mechanism to screen this application, other 

         6          than you, to determine its effect upon the 

         7          Ichetucknee River. 

         8              Columbia County, whose -- whose 

         9          representatives are here, has had no chance to 

        10          study and screen this application for a cement 

        11          plant. 

        12              Suwannee County has only a very small part 

        13          of the Ichetucknee in it.  And according to 

        14          the -- the Comprehensive Plan of 

        15          Suwannee County, all that had to be done, all 

        16          that was done, which has now been approved by 

        17          the Circuit Court --

        18              (Attorney General Butterworth entered the 

        19          room.) 

        20              MR. OGLE:  -- is that a site development 

        21          plan was approved.  There has never been a 

        22          determination that this blasting underneath the 

        23          ground at the water table level, 100 -- 

        24          let's see -- a million tons of cement annually 

        25          is not going to effect the Ichetucknee River. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              You're the only ones that can make that 

         2          determination.  So there's no question here 

         3          that we want to protect the Ichetucknee River.  

         4          Everybody wants to do that. 

         5              That's why everyone pretty much agrees that 

         6          the purchase of the old -- the old cement 

         7          facility -- or the old limestone facility. 

         8              The question is:  Is -- the question is not 

         9          should that be purchased, but how it should be 

        10          purchased.  A vote against it doesn't mean -- a 

        11          vote against this proposal doesn't mean not to 

        12          purchase it, it means not to approve the cement 

        13          plant without at least a study.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Mr. Ogle, your --

        15              MR. OGLE:  I'm just about done.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- your lawyerly 

        17          conclusion.

        18              MR. OGLE:  Lawyerly closing now.

        19              There will be, if this is approved, after 

        20          50 years, 50 million tons of rock by dynamite 

        21          blasting extracted from this site for cement 

        22          use only. 

        23              In addition to that, once you buy the old 

        24          lime rock pit, there will be several hundred 

        25          trucks a day of limestone in addition coming 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          from this facility.  All of the lime rock for 

         2          this facility is coming from that site. 

         3              It will result in a 900-acre lake 100 feet 

         4          deep.  And we're only hoping that it won't 

         5          damage a river that was here when the King of 

         6          Spain claimed this land in the name of God.

         7              We are the -- you know, you, as our 

         8          representatives, are the only thing that stand 

         9          between this pristine river and the 900-acre, 

        10          100-foot deep lake, a million tons of rock 

        11          annually extracted by blasting.

        12              Thank you very much.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.  

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Svenn Lindskold. 

        15              MR. LINDSKOLD:  Good afternoon, Governor, 

        16          and Cabinet.  It's a pleasure to be here.

        17              My name is Svenn Lindskold, and I'm the 

        18          President of Save Our Suwannee.  And we 

        19          currently have an action going against the 

        20          State with regard to the cement plant. 

        21              It turned out that as a neighborhood 

        22          environmental organization, we became sort of 

        23          the coordinating element in the entire 

        24          movement, and the Court actions that are going 

        25          against you are supported by hundreds of people 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          throughout the state, not just our 

         2          organization. 

         3              And in our DEP action, our appeal of the 

         4          permit, we have been joined by Florida Sierra, 

         5          who's already spoken.  We greatly appreciate 

         6          all of the efforts that they have made.

         7              I'm here then to speak on the issue of the 

         8          mine acquisition.  And as a member -- Save Our 

         9          Suwannee's been a member of the Water Quality 

        10          Working Group for the Ichetucknee for years, 

        11          and we support the acquisition of these mines, 

        12          as we have repeatedly and consistently over the 

        13          years. 

        14              However, you tell me if we have an appeal 

        15          going to -- in the effort to get this permit 

        16          denied, how can I support that acquisition? 

        17              Don't tell me to drop the suit.  We've 

        18          already been asked to do that.  We're not going 

        19          to drop the suit.  We're going to hearing on 

        20          February 14th.

        21              We thus have to -- have to disapprove and 

        22          disagree with the linkage that everyone has 

        23          mentioned.

        24              There are a couple of general things that I 

        25          would like to mention to the Cabinet, not to be 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          repetitious of what others have said.

         2              I would like the Governor and Cabinet -- 

         3          and we've discussed this with Florida Sierra -- 

         4          to instruct the Department of Environmental 

         5          Protection to go back and work on some 

         6          regulations with respect to limestone mining in 

         7          Florida.  There's not much regulation.  There 

         8          are some permits, rather token permits. 

         9              But bear in mind that taking limestone in 

        10          Florida is invading the aquifer.  And we know 

        11          the importance of water quality and water 

        12          quantity for the future of Florida.  If we're 

        13          concerned with the -- with the future of 

        14          Florida, we've got to be concerned with that. 

        15              Whether we're talking about the Florida 

        16          aquifer, the Biscayne aquifer, or whatever.

        17              So DEP should prepare some more careful 

        18          regulations having to do with that.  And you 

        19          should inspect and examine them and recommend 

        20          them to the Legislature, if necessary. 

        21              There should be studies in this -- in this 

        22          area that -- where the cement plant site is 

        23          proposed, where the limestone rock has existed 

        24          for 60 years, where Anderson will move their 

        25          operations when the Ichetucknee Trace lime rock 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          has been -- they make no secret of that.

         2               (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.) 

         3              MR. LINDSKOLD:  They will move their 

         4          operations from the Ichetucknee Trace to the 

         5          cement plant site where they have six, seven, 

         6          nine hundred acres of lime rock to work with. 

         7              So we have to know that at that site, that 

         8          is land that has been geographically determined 

         9          to be highly vulnerable, highly vulnerable to 

        10          sinkhole development. 

        11              And right across the road from this is 

        12          what's known as Sims Sink, a 2-acre property 

        13          owned by the Nature Conservancy, which they 

        14          were interested in acquiring because it's one 

        15          of the few places where there's successful 

        16          habitat for what's called the Red Eye Craw-- 

        17          Cave Crawfish. 

        18              And there's just a couple of sinks in that 

        19          area.  And according to some biologists, to 

        20          alter the custom water level in that sink would 

        21          have disastrous --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you --

        23              MR. LINDSKOLD:  -- consequences for that --

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you wrap it up, sir?

        25              MR. LINDSKOLD:  -- particular species.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Can you wrap it up, sir?

         2              MR. LINDSKOLD:  Yes, indeed. 

         3              The final thing that I would like to 

         4          mention is that I'd like you to converse with 

         5          DEP on the question of gifts. 

         6              The public perception is that the company 

         7          has to provide so many goodies, and then 

         8          eventually they can get straight with the 

         9          State, and -- and get their permit.  I know 

        10          this is not the DEP intention to do that.

        11              But the public would like to have permit 

        12          requirements that are followed impartially.  

        13          And that means that we have to bring our air 

        14          requirements up to date so as to deal with 

        15          particulant matter 2.5 with NOx and ozone. 

        16              And that -- as others have mentioned, that 

        17          the State should encourage a considerable 

        18          buffering around important State properties 

        19          such as this. 

        20              The Federal system has Class I areas where 

        21          they have strict limits with respect to air 

        22          pollution.  We ought to --

        23              (Secretary Harris exited the room.) 

        24              MR. LINDSKOLD:  -- work for that -- with 

        25          that. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              What I would suggest that you do today is 

         2          approve the appraisal process, but don't 

         3          improve the -- approve the deal. 

         4              Come back after the appraisal process is 

         5          concerned, satisfy yourselves and satisfy us 

         6          that it was from start to finish, an entirely 

         7          fair process, a reasonable process, and the 

         8          public has been in every way defended.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        10              MR. LINDSKOLD:  I appreciate very much the 

        11          time.  And I encourage you to confront the 

        12          difficult dilemma you have.  We have a 

        13          difficult dilemma not knowing which side we're 

        14          on either.

        15              Thank you.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  We're delighted that the Mayor 

        18          of Fort White has joined us, Mr. Truett George. 

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  How many more, 

        20          David? 

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Welcome, Mayor. 

        22              MR. GEORGE:  Thank you.

        23              Governor and Cabinet, thank you very much 

        24          for allowing me to speak before you today. 

        25              I have taken a soft stance on taking a hard 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          position on the cement mine and the acquisition 

         2          of the Kirby mine pit area. 

         3              My concern is is that everyone in here is 

         4          very much against some things, and there don't 

         5          seem to be too many people for any particular 

         6          avenue here.

         7              If there is a concern that the Kirby pit is 

         8          injurious -- possibly injurious to the 

         9          groundwater affecting the Ichetucknee River, I 

        10          have a concern as to why there's not the same 

        11          concern for the property where the cement plant 

        12          is going to be.  It's in a different county 

        13          than I am, and I've been careful not to step on 

        14          anybody's toes. 

        15              I have an opinion that our part of the 

        16          state, with the groundwater situation as we 

        17          have it with over 200 springs in our area, that 

        18          any tampering with -- in the mining area is 

        19          going to be injurious.  I don't have that 

        20          proof. 

        21              I'm not sure that anybody has any proof 

        22          whether that's true or not.  I would suggest 

        23          that you proceed carefully. 

        24              I expect that we're going to have a cement 

        25          plant.  I'm not in favor of that.  But I expect 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that there will be controls in place to make 

         2          sure that's a safe mining operation to the best 

         3          of your ability. 

         4              I question whether you have the ability to 

         5          guarantee to anyone that we're not going to 

         6          damage our environmental systems in north 

         7          Florida.  I'm not sure that anybody could tell 

         8          you you're going to damage them or you're not 

         9          going to damage them.  Proceed carefully.

        10              My major concern as the Mayor of Fort White 

        11          is that we've been told that if it all happens, 

        12          we're going to have an influx of 690 trucks per 

        13          day running through downtown Fort White. 

        14              That's about 50 percent more trucks than we 

        15          have people in the town of Fort White.  We're 

        16          having a new high school open there with 

        17          1200 students. 

        18              I'm really concerned about the impact 

        19          traffic-wise to the infrastructure and to the 

        20          health and well-being of the people of 

        21          Fort White. 

        22              I would sure like to see the Ichetucknee 

        23          protected, and I speak in favor of acquiring 

        24          the Kirby land pit area.  And if you could do 

        25          it, let's buy the cement plant site and close 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that down, too.  That would suit me, and 

         2          I think it would suit my constituents very 

         3          well.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

         5              MR. GEORGE:  I will ask you -- I will tell 

         6          you that I've had two television crews come to 

         7          my place of business wanting to talk to me 

         8          about cement plants.

         9              (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)

        10              MR. GEORGE:  I've told them that I could 

        11          not speak in favor of cement plants, and they 

        12          wanted to know who they could talk to that 

        13          would be in favor of the cement plant. 

        14              I have been able to tell them that I don't 

        15          know a living soul who is in favor of a 

        16          cement plant.

        17              MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE:  Joe Anderson.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Mayor.

        19              MR. GEORGE:  Thank you.

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Charles Lee. 

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Attorney General 

        22          Butterworth does not believe you can do this in 

        23          2 minutes, and I told him you could.

        24              MR. LEE:  Governor, I don't know if I can 

        25          do it in 2 minutes --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

         2              MR. LEE:  -- either, but I'll try.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- Butterworth -- 

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Don't --

         5              MR. LEE:  Governor, Charles Lee, 

         6          Senior Vice President of Florida Audubon 

         7          Society.  And we are here today to support the 

         8          agenda item, and to urge you to go ahead and 

         9          authorize the process to purchase this mine 

        10          site. 

        11              We do so, Governor, mindful of the fact 

        12          that for in excess of half of a decade, the 

        13          Ichetucknee Springs Water Quality Working 

        14          Group, which has included a number of experts, 

        15          including individuals with our local chapter of  

        16          the Four Rivers Audubon Society, have focused 

        17          on what the greatest threat to the 

        18          Ichetucknee Springs system are. 

        19              And --

        20              (Secretary Harris entered the room.) 

        21              MR. LEE:  -- and clearly in their view, the 

        22          greatest threats to the Ichetucknee Springs 

        23          system are the fact that the current mine site, 

        24          which is proposed to be purchased, literally 

        25          sits over an underground conduit, which is 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          called on the surface the Ichetucknee Trace, 

         2          that brings the water to Ichetucknee Springs.

         3              And when you see the photographs that 

         4          Mr. Stevenson and Mr. Skiles will present a 

         5          little bit later, you will see the relationship 

         6          that this mine has to the direct threat to the 

         7          integrity of that spring. 

         8              The mine urgently needs to be purchased.  

         9          And we believe that the item on your agenda 

        10          today offers a good way for you to go ahead and 

        11          purchase that mine.

        12              Now, I'd like to say something about 

        13          linkage, because people are talking about the 

        14          linkage between this purchase item, and a 

        15          cement plant, which there is obviously a lot of 

        16          strong opposition to, a cement plant which is 

        17          being permitted elsewhere in the permitting 

        18          process by the Department of Environmental 

        19          Protection. 

        20              You need to read the agenda item closely.  

        21          There is no linkage in this agenda item that 

        22          facilitates the approval of the cement plant. 

        23              If you vote no on this item today, the 

        24          approval of the cement plant is going to go 

        25          forward in the processes it's already in.  A no 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          vote today is not a no vote that will close out 

         2          the cement plant. 

         3              And -- and I think that a lot of people 

         4          believe that this is a forum to oppose the 

         5          cement plant, which obviously is a very 

         6          objectionable feature in the neighborhood that 

         7          it is located in.

         8              Unfortunately for those people, this vote 

         9          will not resolve that issue in their favor if 

        10          you vote no.  The only thing that happens if 

        11          you vote no is you fail to purchase the mine 

        12          site, which is the most serious threat to the 

        13          spring. 

        14              And I -- and I think that would be a 

        15          distinct disservice to the environment, and 

        16          that's why we in the Audubon Society believe 

        17          you should go ahead and authorize this item to 

        18          purchase the mine site today.

        19              Now, I think it's important to 

        20          understand --

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Wrap it up --

        22              MR. LEE:  -- something about the structure 

        23          that -- that -- of -- of this arrangement. 

        24              Make -- make no mistake about this.  This 

        25          item is headed to an eminent domain proceeding.  


                  January 25, 2000
         1          I think that the likelihood is near certainty 

         2          that when the appraisals come in for this 

         3          355-acre property in Columbia County, this 

         4          property is not going to likely appraise at 

         5          $64,000 an acre.  That's what 23 million  

         6          dollars translates to for 355 acres. 

         7              The appraisal is very likely to come in 

         8          substantially below 23 million dollars.  This 

         9          item will go to eminent domain.

        10              The question you need to ask yourselves as 

        11          managers of the State's assets is:  Would you 

        12          rather go into an eminent domain proceeding 

        13          with an upset price, a cap on the maximum that 

        14          you would have to pay, regardless of what a 

        15          jury would award, and with a cap on the 

        16          attorney's fees that relate the attorney's fees 

        17          to your second offer. 

        18              Or would you rather go into an 

        19          eminent domain proceeding, which you could do.  

        20          You could go into eminent domain outside of 

        21          this deal today --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Charles, would you --

        23              MR. LEE:  -- you have the -- 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- wrap up, please?

        25              MR. LEE:  -- authority, but the reality is, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          you would fail to go in with those protections.  

         2          You get that cap and those protections by 

         3          voting yes on this item today.

         4              And for that reason, we think you should 

         5          vote yes.  We think the item is not directly 

         6          linked to the approval of the cement plant, 

         7          it's the other way around. 

         8              If they don't get their approval in the 

         9          appellate process, they could walk from the 

        10          deal.  But this does not facilitate the cement 

        11          plant. 

        12              We think a yes vote's the right thing to do 

        13          for the environment and the Ichetucknee.

        14              Thank you.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Your 

        17          predecessor would not --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I lost.

        19              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- limit him 

        20          to -- the rest of us couldn't do it either.  

        21          I mean, no one's been able to --

        22              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'm not going to -- I'm not 

        23          going to say I ever can either in the future.

        24              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Dicks from Lake City. 

        25              MR. DICKS:  Good morning.  My name is 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Lenvil Dicks.  I'm a real estate broker and 

         2          land developer in Lake City. 

         3              I'll put your mind at ease real quick on 

         4          two points:  First, I'll be brief; second, I'm 

         5          not an expert on anything.  Which gives me a 

         6          great deal in common with some of the folks 

         7          that I've been listening to.

         8              I have -- I've been a resident of 

         9          Columbia County for almost 72 years.  I know I 

        10          don't look that old. 

        11              But I remember going to the 

        12          Ichetucknee River in a Model T Ford.  And I'm 

        13          sure I've probably went several times before 

        14          that, but I was too young to recollect. 

        15              That stream and those springs are very dear 

        16          to my heart, and I, along with most other 

        17          people, want to see those springs preserved.

        18              That lime rock mine needs to be purchased 

        19          while Joe Anderson is -- is at a point where 

        20          he's willing to sell it, and with a -- a floor 

        21          and a ceiling on what you would have to pay for 

        22          it. 

        23              And so I would urge you to -- to go ahead 

        24          and acquire the lime rock mines.

        25              I had not planned to even mention cement 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          plant, but I can't resist the urge to bring 

         2          this to your attention.  Everybody concedes 

         3          that the Ichetucknee Trace runs roughly from 

         4          Rose Creek Sink, and runs almost due southwest 

         5          to the head spring and the other springs in 

         6          that area.

         7              The cement mine is several miles away from 

         8          the Ichetucknee further southwest.  What 

         9          conclusion you want to draw from that might be 

        10          the same as mine.  I hope it is. 

        11              And I thank you for your attention.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Dicks. 

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Randy Hatch. 

        14              MR. HATCH:  Governor, Madam Secretary, 

        15          gentlemen, I'm Randy Hatch from Branford, 

        16          Florida, one of nine generations of Hatches 

        17          in -- in the Branford area and the southern 

        18          Suwannee County area.

        19              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Wow.

        20              MR. HATCH:  We've been there so long that 

        21          we all had to figure out how to eke a living 

        22          out of that sorry soil and -- and still 

        23          maintain our standard of living and our -- and 

        24          our quality of living. 

        25              I think we've done a pretty good job of it.  


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Not just us, but other old-timers in the area.

         2              And we -- we've done such a good job of it, 

         3          that most of the state seems to covet what 

         4          we've been so careful to protect.

         5              We do things based on the best information 

         6          available at the time.  We try to use the best 

         7          technologies at the time. 

         8              And to that end, I feel like that the -- 

         9          the -- the Department of Environmental 

        10          Protection has -- has done everything that they 

        11          can do to assure that the cement plant issues 

        12          is one that doesn't pose a significant threat 

        13          to the Ichetucknee. 

        14              And according to the best information 

        15          available right now, the mining operation in 

        16          Columbia City does. 

        17              So we urge you to -- to go ahead, purchase 

        18          the mine, get that other thing -- I have no 

        19          problem with the linkage.  I think the cement 

        20          plant's going to be good for the south end of 

        21          Suwannee County, the County Commissioners feel 

        22          that, the City Commissioners think that in 

        23          Branford, the business people in the area think 

        24          that. 

        25              You've got sort of a -- a tough way to go 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          because you're on a tight rope.  And we can 

         2          understand it.  My family saw this happening 

         3          years and years ago before the State was 

         4          involved. 

         5              The lower -- the lower Ichetucknee was 

         6          busted up into little lots with septic tanks 

         7          and wells; the lower Santa Fe, the same thing.  

         8          My family very quietly started buying 

         9          riverfront property on the Suwannee to keep 

        10          that from happening. 

        11              And for 30 to 40 years, we've paid the 

        12          taxes on it and haven't cut a tree.  But we've 

        13          kept it from being developed.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you can close it --

        15              MR. HATCH:  We did that because we --

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- that'd be great.

        17              MR. HATCH:  -- we believe in our -- our 

        18          ecosystem down there and wanted to protect it.

        19              At the time, the upper reaches run by 

        20          J.P. -- well, who was it?

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Mr. -- if you could -- if 

        22          you could close, I'd be grateful.

        23              MR. HATCH:  Okay.  It was owned by -- by a 

        24          foreign interest, and it was protected.

        25              But now the mine needs to be bought to -- 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          to protect the head springs. 

         2              And we thank you.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Floyd Messer. 

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon, Mr. Messer.

         6              MR. MESSER:  Good afternoon, Governor, 

         7          Cabinet. 

         8              My name is Floyd Messer.  I'm a businessman 

         9          in Columbia County.  I'm also a property owner 

        10          in Suwannee County.  I've also spoke at all the 

        11          public forums concerning the cement plant. 

        12              I own property within 6 miles of the 

        13          proposed cement plant, and thousands of acres.  

        14          I spent a lot of money on the environment. 

        15              I'm a Floridian.  I'm eleventh generation.  

        16          That takes you back to 1700s.  So I love my 

        17          state and I love the part of the country that I 

        18          live in.

        19              I do believe that you support the purchase 

        20          of the mine.  The cement plant we have -- we 

        21          have cement plants all over the 

        22          state of Florida.  This would be the best 

        23          cement plant in the United States of America 

        24          from the technology standpoint, as has been 

        25          pointed out. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              I didn't come to argue the cement plant 

         2          today, but obviously it's become an issue.

         3              I'd like to once again bring to your 

         4          attention that by not buying this property does 

         5          not have anything to do with the completion of 

         6          the permitting of the cement plant. 

         7              We have laws in the state of Florida that 

         8          allows business still to do business, even 

         9          though it's harder to do business every day 

        10          because of our laws.  But once a man meets 

        11          these laws and requirements, they should be 

        12          allowed to do business in this state. 

        13              I don't care to -- to jump on all the 

        14          people that spoke before me today, because 

        15          we've already had those rounds, and they've 

        16          been real challenges, and -- and I've got to 

        17          know them all real well.

        18              However, we spent money on swamps in this 

        19          state that nobody enjoys, nobody can see, a 

        20          bear can't walk through it. 

        21              Millions of doll-- Pinhook Swamp -- 

        22          everybody been to Pinhook Swamp raise their 

        23          hand.  Nobody can raise their hand up there, 

        24          because you can't get in it, you can't see it, 

        25          there's no access to it, but we own it. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              There's an opportunity to protect the 

         2          environment.  We know the Suwannee and the -- 

         3          and the Trace of Ichetucknee Springs flows 

         4          somewhere about this -- this pit.  I'm not here 

         5          to say that an earthquake won't cause a 

         6          problem, I'm not -- not here to say that 

         7          blasting won't cause a problem. 

         8              I do know if we stop it, that it'll help 

         9          us.  So the question here isn't is a cement 

        10          plant going to be stopped by not buying this 

        11          facility.  I suggest, no. 

        12              I suggest that we must buy this pit to 

        13          protect the springs.  The cement plant should 

        14          go about its permitting process by the laws of 

        15          the state of Florida. 

        16              Those laws are met -- that permit ought -- 

        17          also should be given to the business people who 

        18          ask for the permit, just as all the other 

        19          permits have been given in this state.  And no 

        20          other reason.

        21              I don't feel personally that we have a 

        22          pollution problem with the cement plant with 

        23          the things that we have now negotiated in place 

        24          to protect --

        25              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you could close --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              MR. MESSER:  -- our water --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- sir, it'd be great. 

         3              MR. MESSER:  -- in our state.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you could close your 

         5          remarks.

         6              MR. MESSER:  I -- I thank you for your 

         7          time, and I --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a --

         9              MR. MESSER:  -- wish that you would 

        10          continue --

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Very good.

        12              MR. MESSER:  -- purchasing --

        13              Is that close enough? 

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You're the only guy that 

        15          listened to me.  I like that.

        16              Thank you for coming. 

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Frank Sedmera.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Go meet Mr. Lee.  

        19          Charles Lee's over there, and teach him how to 

        20          do that.

        21              I'm sorry.  Your name, sir?

        22              MR. SEDMERA:  My name is Frank Sedmera.

        23              Good morning -- 

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Good afternoon.

        25              MR. SEDMERA:  -- actually.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              And -- ladies and gentlemen.

         2              I am -- these comments are being submitted 

         3          on behalf of Four Rivers Audubon, but I'm also 

         4          a member of the Ichetucknee Springs Water 

         5          Quality Working Group, worked on the mine 

         6          acquis-- mine subcommittee of that group, and 

         7          the land acquisition committee.  But these 

         8          comments are on behalf of the Audubon group. 

         9              And I appreciate what Mr. Lee said a little 

        10          bit earlier about what the real issues ought to 

        11          be this morning.

        12              Four Rivers Audubon Society wishes to 

        13          register its support for the acquisition of the 

        14          Anderson mine property, Ichetucknee Trace, 

        15          Columbia County, subject to defensible land 

        16          value appraisal.

        17              Columbia County has a long history of 

        18          scientific verification of groundwater 

        19          contamination from poorly treated surface 

        20          waters.  As far back as 1978, the 

        21          Suwannee River Water Management District staff 

        22          produced --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  If you could summarize the 

        24          letter, it'd be --

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  We've got the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          letter. 

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We got the letter.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Tell us what it 

         4          says.

         5              MR. SEDMERA:  I would like to read it, if 

         6          you don't --

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, you --

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It'll take only 

         9          3 minutes.

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We could read it faster.  

        11          Why don't you just add other --

        12              MR. SEDMERA:  Pardon? 

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, just -- if you could 

        14          summarize it, or just --

        15              MR. SEDMERA:  Well, one -- one major point 

        16          that hasn't been made -- I haven't heard it 

        17          made yet is --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Perfect.

        19              MR. SEDMERA:  -- people are drinking this 

        20          water.  It's not just coming up in the spring. 

        21              And so my letter -- these comments include 

        22          some references to that.  So I would like to 

        23          read those, please.

        24              The -- the region that we're talking about, 

        25          the Ichetucknee Trace where the Anderson mine 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          is located, is an area where the limestone has 

         2          fractured.  There are sinkholes. 

         3              Cave divers have certified by using tracing 

         4          techniques that there's a connection between 

         5          Rose Creek Sink and the Ichetucknee Springs.  

         6          These divers believe that they were quite close 

         7          to that Anderson mine property when the air 

         8          supply forced them to return to the surface. 

         9              What we do know is that upgradient of that, 

        10          Columbia City School was forced to resort to 

        11          buy -- drinking bottled water when some sinks 

        12          further to the north and further upgradient yet 

        13          of the place that we're talking about was 

        14          receiving flood waters from urbanized Lake City 

        15          and Columbia County. 

        16              So there is definitely -- there are people 

        17          that are drinking this water, and we think that 

        18          should be definitely made as a point this 

        19          afternoon.  Not just water coming up out of the 

        20          springs, which is certainly very important. 

        21              So we're talking public health, as well as, 

        22          you know --

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's a good -- 

        24              MR. SEDMERA:  -- the economy, if you will. 

        25              And if we really appreciate the fact that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the County Commissioners, the Lake City 

         2          Commissioners, and County Commissioners, have 

         3          done what they have done, which you've heard 

         4          in -- in ways of addressing issues even further 

         5          to the north than where we're talking about 

         6          now.

         7              This mine should be purchased using 

         8          defensible appraisal techniques, and we 

         9          definitely support that.

        10              Thank you very much.

        11              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much for 

        12          coming, sir.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Jim Poole. 

        14              MR. POOLE:  Thank you. 

        15              And good afternoon, Governor and Cabinet 

        16          members.  Jim Poole, Executive Director of the 

        17          Lake City/Columbia County Chamber of Commerce 

        18          and Economic Development Authority. 

        19              Governor, I've been in a meeting this 

        20          morning with Enterprise and Tony Villamil and 

        21          them on the plan that you've assigned us to 

        22          come.  And so I've been in and out, and I 

        23          apologize for that. 

        24              I think enough people have expressed our 

        25          point of view.  We do support the efforts to 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          have the mine purchased by the State and turned 

         2          into a recreation area. 

         3              We think that ecotourism is important.  We 

         4          have a large tourism based industry in 

         5          Columbia County, along with the other 

         6          industries that we have. 

         7              So we do ask that you do support this 

         8          purchase and -- based on that.

         9              Also can't ever go without an opportunity 

        10          to brag on one of our companies.  We hear much 

        11          of the downside of a company like 

        12          Anderson Columbia. 

        13              I can tell you from the position that I 

        14          serve in that I -- they're one of the first 

        15          people I can always go to in a time of 

        16          emergency to ask for help, whether it be a 

        17          disaster like we've had through the floodings, 

        18          or other type deals, whether it's to help with  

        19          Christian Service Centers to help with youth 

        20          activities to donate ball fields, to do work 

        21          for free.  They do all of these impacts into 

        22          our community.  And for that, they deserve a 

        23          lot of credit, too. 

        24              So I think that we would like to recognize 

        25          them for the corporate citizen.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              So sometimes you don't hear some of the 

         2          good things that a company does for a 

         3          community.

         4              Rural Florida, as I just mentioned to you, 

         5          we're very challenged.  We're trying to find 

         6          jobs and to create economic development.  It's 

         7          hard enough without always having to try to 

         8          find a way around different oppositions and 

         9          stuff. 

        10              And for that, once again, please support 

        11          these efforts and help us develop Kirby pit 

        12          from a mine into a nice recreation area that'll 

        13          generate more jobs in the future.

        14              Thank you.

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you.

        16              Thanks for coming.

        17              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Eddy Hillhouse. 

        18              MR. HILLHOUSE:  Good afternoon. 

        19              My name's Eddy Hillhouse, and I represent 

        20          the Suwannee County Chamber of Commerce, the 

        21          Suwannee County Tourist Development Council, 

        22          and the Suwannee County Development Authority. 

        23              Our Board's position on the cement plant 

        24          permit issue has always been that as long as 

        25          they met all the regulations required by DEP, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that we supported them.  We still hold that 

         2          position as long as they meet all the 

         3          requirements that are now set out. 

         4              As far as the purchase of the Kirby pit, we 

         5          feel that would be a fringe benefit of the 

         6          cement plant that wasn't before -- that wasn't 

         7          available to Columbia County or the State 

         8          before. 

         9              So we support this purchase and we sup-- we 

        10          also support the cement plant.

        11              Thank you.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much.

        13              MR. STRUHS:  Mr. Jim Eaton.

        14              MR. EATON:  Governor and Cabinet members, 

        15          I'm Jim Eaton.  I'm here this morning as 

        16          attorney in representing Anderson Columbia, the 

        17          seller of the property. 

        18              Just like briefly to touch on a couple of 

        19          issues without running the gamut of all what's 

        20          been said here this morning.

        21              First of all, I've got a -- an aerial photo 

        22          that -- bring it up where you can actually see 

        23          it.  This has received very little attention 

        24          this morning. 

        25              But this is a piece of property of Bagdad, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Florida.

         2              Jim, I think you've got that upside-down.  

         3          I hate to say that to you.  But --

         4              It's still being given away, upside down or 

         5          not.

         6              That property outlined in white on the 

         7          banks of the Blackwater River is 21 acres.  

         8          It's an industrial site that is actually 

         9          Florida's oldest industrial site, going back to 

        10          1835.

        11              And that has been an object of controversy 

        12          between the company and the DEP for a couple of 

        13          years now.

        14              As part of the negotiation, we have 

        15          agreed -- the company has agreed to donate this 

        16          property, which has 2100 front feet along the 

        17          Blackwater River, which is also an Outstanding 

        18          Florida Waterway, as is the Ichetucknee and the 

        19          Santa Fe, at the conclusion of the acquisition 

        20          process for the Kirby mine.

        21              So whatever numbers eventually derive for 

        22          the purchase of the Kirby mine, in effect, you 

        23          get this piece of property for free.

        24              Now, the company values it at approximately 

        25          2 million dollars.  It has deep water access.  


                  January 25, 2000
         1          As I say, it's one of the oldest industrial 

         2          facilities in Florida.  It started life as the 

         3          Bagdad Lumber Company in 1835.

         4              Just briefly to move on -- so before we 

         5          leave that, just to say that acts as a further 

         6          2 million dollar discount to the value of 

         7          whatever process or -- or -- the process leads 

         8          to for the Kirby mine.

         9              I'd like to sort of pick up where 

        10          Charles Lee left off.  I think he made very 

        11          cogent, to the point, arguments. 

        12              The fact of the matter is --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Jim, can you get a little 

        14          closer to the mic?  Just raise it up.

        15              MR. EATON:  Yes, Governor.

        16              I think he made very -- Charles Lee made 

        17          very cogent remarks here this morning.  I'd 

        18          like to pick up where he left off.

        19              The fact of the matter is, Secretary Struhs 

        20          is a very tough negotiator.  We were at this 

        21          with him for approximately six months, he and 

        22          his staff. 

        23              It's true that these three agreements -- 

        24          and, in effect, there were three agreements.  

        25          The first was a settlement agreement of all the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          outstanding regulatory issues. 

         2              The second was an agreement dealing with 

         3          the cement plant air permit.  Those two 

         4          agreements, the parties are the DEP on one side 

         5          and the companies on the other for both of 

         6          those two agreements. 

         7              The third agreement is the agreement that's 

         8          before you here today.  That's the purchase 

         9          agreement for the Kirby mine property.

        10              The reason that -- that the first two are 

        11          not before you is the legal authority there is 

        12          vested in the DEP, not the Governor and 

        13          Cabinet.

        14              But this third item, whenever the Trustees 

        15          are to authorize a -- a purchase, must be 

        16          authorized by this body.  So hence the reason 

        17          we're here today.

        18              Our company's view of what the property's 

        19          worth is -- is this:  When the State expressed 

        20          an interest in it, the company commissioned 

        21          KPMG, a well-recognized national accounting 

        22          firm, to do what admittedly is not a fee 

        23          appraisal.  It was a business valuation of the 

        24          property.

        25              That business valuation gave us a -- a 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          range of values from the high twenties to the 

         2          low thirties.  For the sake of discussion here 

         3          this morning, we'll say 30 million dollars was 

         4          about where that came in. 

         5              That was really based on the value of the 

         6          mineral in the ground.  We have Qore Property 

         7          Sciences, which is a national -- nationally 

         8          recognized geology firm, that did a survey for 

         9          us of the available lime rock at the site. 

        10              They came back with 49 million short 

        11          tons -- that's the way they refer to 

        12          lime rock -- of proven reserves, at a mineable 

        13          depth in the ground.

        14              So any -- any value that is eventually 

        15          derived at for this property will key on the -- 

        16          the proven mineral reserves, and the process 

        17          will be that there'll be an independent geology 

        18          survey.  You won't take the one that the 

        19          company did, there'll be another one done.

        20              But that's why the company feels that this 

        21          is such a valuable piece of property.

        22              A little north Florida topography here.  

        23          This lime rock mine is the closest mineable 

        24          lime rock to the entire Jacksonville region.  

        25          That's -- that's what gives it value for -- as 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          far as this company is concerned.

         2              The -- the next closest mine is down at 

         3          Newberry.  Other than that, you have to go 

         4          about 60 miles south, because Florida has a 

         5          lime rock layer underneath the entire state. 

         6              But for most of the state, the lime rock is 

         7          at a nonmineable depth when you're in the north 

         8          part of the state.  When you get further south, 

         9          the Dade County, it's 3 -- you know, 3 feet, 

        10          5 feet down.  It's -- it's right there.

        11              But when you're using this material for 

        12          road building, the distance that you have to 

        13          haul it, because it's so heavy, greatly 

        14          increases the price. 

        15              So what -- that's a short course on why 

        16          this is valuable to this company in its 

        17          business. 

        18              We can produce lime rock products for sale 

        19          to our own road building company at a range of 

        20          $5 to $8 a ton.

        21              In the Jacksonville market today, similar 

        22          companies in our business routinely pay 

        23          anywhere from 10 to $14 for the same material.  

        24          Much of that material has to be brought in 

        25          boxcars from south Florida, which is what 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          inflates the cost. 

         2              So companies never made a big practice of 

         3          selling to others because they wanted to keep 

         4          the lime rock for their future business needs.

         5              Off of that, I'd be happy to answer any 

         6          questions. 

         7              But I think that the company's view is that 

         8          the Secretary and the Division of State Lands 

         9          drove a very hard bargain, that -- you know, we 

        10          feel like, you know, you have to look at the 

        11          downside as well as the upside. 

        12              The downside for this company could be, as 

        13          Charles Lee pointed out, we could very well end 

        14          up in eminent domain here.  If there's a major 

        15          dispute as to value, we cannot agree.  What the 

        16          company has agreed to do in this document is 

        17          waived its right to contest eminent domain, and 

        18          agreed to cap the amount that can be awarded at 

        19          23 million dollars.

        20              I hope that Charles is wrong in the sense 

        21          that we won't end up there.  But the company 

        22          has to look to the possibility that that will 

        23          occur. 

        24              So imagine a scenario, if you're a mine 

        25          owner here, and in the business, where -- in 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          eminent domain, you -- you come back with a 

         2          12 million dollar number, or a 14 million 

         3          dollar number, and you then get to give this 

         4          property that we just showed you in Bagdad 

         5          that's worth about two million bucks, you've -- 

         6          if you're in the company's shoes, you've just 

         7          given away a very valuable asset.

         8              And with that, I'd close my remarks and 

         9          urge --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you, Jim.

        11              MR. EATON:  -- the Cabinet to approve.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any questions?

        13              General.

        14              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I might, 

        15          Governor. 

        16              Jim, there's been considerable discussion 

        17          today about the linkage between the purchase of 

        18          the property and the approval of the cement 

        19          plant.

        20              And -- and there's a -- a feeling in some 

        21          cases that there is the perception perhaps of 

        22          being held hostage.  And then in the other 

        23          hand, there is the statement that -- including 

        24          from Mr. Lee, that it really is a meaningless 

        25          relationship.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              Would the company be willing to drop that 

         2          linkage from the agreement? 

         3              MR. EATON:  Well -- well, respectfully, 

         4          Controller Milligan, I -- this is a point that 

         5          due to some inquiry from some of the 

         6          Cabinet Aides, you know, I have discussed with 

         7          the Anderson family, who are the owners of the 

         8          company. 

         9              Their feeling is no.  And -- and the reason 

        10          is this really goes to the heart of a bargain 

        11          that was driven by the DEP and the company.  

        12              If you go back, you know, this company 

        13          really applied for an air permit, garden 

        14          variety air permit for a cement plant.  The DEP 

        15          chose to deny that permit. 

        16              At that point in time, the battle was 

        17          joined legally and -- and we're still in -- 

        18          before an Administrative Law Judge to go to 

        19          hearing on February the 14th on that issue.

        20              But at the point at which the DEP denied 

        21          the permit, then it became a question on their 

        22          side of the table, DEP's, of how confident were 

        23          they that they would prevail and be able to 

        24          deny the permit. 

        25              And on our side, the company's side, of how 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          confident were we that we could prevail.  And 

         2          discussions started, and there are many, many 

         3          moving parts to this. 

         4              But the -- the basis of the bargain, if you 

         5          will, is that the company agreed to give up an 

         6          asset that they feel is very, very important to 

         7          their business, that provides some competitive 

         8          advantage, in exchange for the State's 

         9          willingness to go along with what the company 

        10          felt like was its right from day one, which was 

        11          the air permit.

        12              So, I mean, yes, in that negotiation, there 

        13          was a linkage. 

        14              Now, today in front of you, just 

        15          practically speaking, as Charles Lee said, if 

        16          the -- if the Cabinet were to deny this item 

        17          and vote no, the legal process will go forward.  

        18          And unless the Sierra Club and Save Our 

        19          Suwannee were to prevail in the administrative 

        20          hearing, the company will have its air permit. 

        21              And there's one other outstanding issue on 

        22          the comp plan that was over in Circuit Court in 

        23          Suwannee County.  That's already been heard by 

        24          the Circuit Court there, and decided in the 

        25          company's favor.  That matter is now on appeal 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          to the First District.

         2              Those are the only two outstanding items.

         3              So I -- I think respectfully, the answer is 

         4          the company would decline to -- to -- we would 

         5          say the issues were linked before, they're not 

         6          now.  But we would decline to -- respectfully 

         7          to do that.

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General Butterworth?

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think --

        10              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Or Gen-- do you have any 

        11          other --

        12              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, then from your 

        13          answer, there is considered at least by the -- 

        14          the ownership of the company, and you as their 

        15          representative, that there is -- is a linkage.

        16              MR. EATON:  (Nodding head.)

        17              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Okay. 

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You admit 

        19          there is linkage, right?

        20              MR. EATON:  I'm sorry?

        21              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  You -- you 

        22          admit there is linkage.

        23              MR. EATON:  Well, we would admit that 

        24          there -- there is linkage.  To the extent we 

        25          just outlined, it was certainly integral to the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          process if you know what was negotiated here.

         2              TREASURER NELSON:  I -- 

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I 

         4          obviously --

         5              MR. EATON:  But I would -- 

         6              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- I am 

         7          obviously reading --

         8              MR. EATON:  -- also say -- 

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I am 

        10          obviously reading from a wrong agreement.  So, 

        11          please, if you will --

        12              MR. EATON:  Uh-hum.  

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- present 

        14          to us the most recent agreement, because I -- I 

        15          see here, it says:  If, however -- it's on 

        16          page 4:

        17              If, however, the Department denies the 

        18          permit, or proposes to make any substantial 

        19          changes to the permit, or any conditions 

        20          thereto that are not acceptable to Suwannee, 

        21          then Suwannee ACCC-- ACCI, and AMC shall have 

        22          no obligations under this settlement agreement. 

        23              Certain conditions precedent are the 

        24          permit -- let's see -- ACI's -- ACCI's and 

        25          AMC's obligation to close on the sale of the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          property pursuant to purchase agreement shall 

         2          take effect only after the permit, all other 

         3          State approvals, and the site development plan 

         4          approval have been issued and become legally 

         5          effective.

         6              The time for filing all litigation or 

         7          appeal with respect to such approvals has 

         8          expired.  Any such litigations and appeals have 

         9          been resolved in a fashion that results in the 

        10          issuance of required approvals in substantially 

        11          the form requested by Suwannee.

        12              And I believe there's a two-year drop-dead 

        13          date, so if everything is not done in 

        14          two years, it's over.

        15              Now, I -- from what you've just said, Jim, 

        16          obviously this part of the agreement is not -- 

        17          is no longer part of the -- of the agreement 

        18          with the State. 

        19              So if that be true, I don't think -- you 

        20          may not have a problem.

        21              MR. EATON:  Well -- well, obviously, it is 

        22          part of the agreement --

        23              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.

        24              MR. EATON:  -- General.  I mean, the --

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Then you 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          have a problem.

         2              MR. EATON:  -- the agreement in front of 

         3          you.  And it -- it -- as I said a minute ago in 

         4          my comments, it really formed the basis of the 

         5          bargain, you know, if you will, and I don't 

         6          think we'd be standing here today, you know, 

         7          if -- if that was the case.

         8              But looking prospectively for another part 

         9          of the agreement gives this body -- because 

        10          there's many time deadlines in here in this 

        11          agreement. 

        12              This agreement was put in front of the 

        13          Cabinet about two months ago, was due to come 

        14          up at the Cabinet meeting in early December.  

        15          We could have started that discussion, 

        16          you know, then, and continued it today.

        17              Now, we -- we put a time limit in there of 

        18          January 31st, because we would -- respectfully, 

        19          we'd like to know if you want to buy the 

        20          property or not.

        21              The -- again, the Bagdad property that you 

        22          just saw, we've been unable as a company to use 

        23          that property for the past two years.  We look 

        24          forward two years, you know, if this takes that 

        25          long, to continue to not to be able to use that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          property. 

         2              So we'd at least like to know the direction 

         3          we're going in, and sooner rather than later, 

         4          because we -- we're also still mining at the 

         5          Kirby mine site, which is upsetting to a lot of 

         6          the folks here who feel like that activity 

         7          ought to cease sooner rather than later. 

         8              And we're told, this process will take at 

         9          least nine months to a year, even if you 

        10          approve the agreement today. 

        11              So that would be -- that's a long winded 

        12          way to answer --

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Just a 

        14          follow-up, Governor.

        15              This is the only -- the way I read this, 

        16          even if somebody in administrative hearing, 

        17          whether it be Sierra or someone else, prevails, 

        18          even if we vote yes today, Suwannee can get out 

        19          of it. 

        20              So really what -- what might end up 

        21          happening, Jim, and correct me if I'm wrong, 

        22          that if we vote yes, we could delay the -- the 

        23          time when the State could actually buy this -- 

        24          this mine, because if, in fact, two years from 

        25          now, nothing has happened, Anderson can walk, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          and we're -- and we're stuck in the same 

         2          position we are in right now. 

         3              And I -- I have no idea how long these -- 

         4          these lawsuits will last.  Most of them last 

         5          much longer than -- than two years, especially 

         6          if the appellate court reverses the trial 

         7          court.

         8              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well --

         9              MR. EATON:  Well, just if -- if I might, 

        10          General, you're a better lawyer than I, and 

        11          have a whole lot more legal staff. 

        12              But respectfully, you know, there's only 

        13          two -- two things here:  There's an 

        14          administrative hearing that's due to commence 

        15          shortly.  The hearing officer should have an 

        16          order back to the DEP.  I would think within 60 

        17          to 75 days after that, they'll make their 

        18          decision, file their final recommended order. 

        19              And then that would allow still a 

        20          year-and-a-half for the First District Court of 

        21          Appeal to dispose of that issue, which is ample 

        22          time, according to my experience.

        23              Similarly, the issue that's -- the land use 

        24          issue is already up on appeal.  And unless the 

        25          First DCA takes longer than two years, I just 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          don't think that that's a realistic 

         2          possibility.  That's our view.

         3              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Gallagher.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I think that all 

         5          of us on this Cabinet, and I'm sure many people 

         6          in the audience, are extremely frustrated with 

         7          the linkage; the feeling that we buy this so 

         8          they can get that; and all of those issues.  

         9          And I'm as frustrated.

        10              A person -- a land owner that we want to 

        11          buy property from may change their mind if we 

        12          make an offer.  It can happen.  This happens to 

        13          be linked to some way that'll make it happen.  

        14          But one could say, I'm just not going to do it, 

        15          and then you want to eminent domain or 

        16          something, you can.

        17              So this isn't much different than that, 

        18          although there are some real ways we know they 

        19          can.

        20              I think that the purchase of this mine is 

        21          much more important, to me, the opportunity to 

        22          own it and shut it down, than the seller might 

        23          not sell, for whatever reason. 

        24              The idea is that it -- we don't have an 

        25          opportunity to buy if we don't vote for the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          offer. 

         2              So, therefore, I would -- I would make a 

         3          motion that would say that we approve the 

         4          offer, and also probably condemn the -- the 

         5          concrete plant at the same time, although we 

         6          don't have a -- we don't have a lot of 

         7          authority to do that, but I -- I wouldn't mind 

         8          making that -- making that -- that the motion 

         9          so that we can at least let our feelings out 

        10          that, yes, we want to buy --

        11              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Can't do that.

        12              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- that mine, but 

        13          we don't really care a whole lot about a 

        14          cement plant.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, if 

        16          I can respond to that. 

        17              I think the only problem with that would be 

        18          that that'd be a violation -- that may be a 

        19          solution, and Columbia County would like it. 

        20              But the only problem would be, it would 

        21          already be a violation of Anderson's agreement, 

        22          and they would -- and then they would -- if you 

        23          want to go with the agreement, you -- you've 

        24          just violated the agreement by what you've 

        25          done.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, that -- but 

         2          that's still their choice.  Their choice has 

         3          always been there. 

         4              We -- the courts are going to say whether 

         5          or not they're going to build a cement plant.  

         6          It's out of our hands.  And -- but the purchase 

         7          of that property is in our hands.  And I think 

         8          that it is extremely important. 

         9              Even though I don't like the mine -- the 

        10          cement plant, I think buying that mine is -- is 

        11          an environmental interest in this state, and to 

        12          the people of this state, and that we should do 

        13          that, and not forego that opportunity. 

        14              And so that's why I make that motion.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If I can make a 

        16          quick comment, to follow up on the 

        17          Commissioner's comment.

        18              You know, there's been some discussion 

        19          today about perception.  And we're dealing with 

        20          really a policy here that is giving the 

        21          perception at least, if not in fact, that 

        22          elements of the state, or the local community, 

        23          or the local governments are, in fact, being 

        24          held hostage as a result of this linkage.

        25              Perception is a -- is a deadly thing.  And 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          I -- and I have a bit of a problem with a 

         2          policy that allows the idea of linkages such as 

         3          this, you do this, and I'll do that, and -- and 

         4          the impact that it has in terms of -- of being 

         5          held hostage, even if it is just perception.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Crawford. 

         7              Can we --

         8              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well --

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  We might want to ask 

        10          Secretary Struhs to comment on some of these 

        11          questions, because he was the other side of 

        12          the --

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Bargain.

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- negotiating.  I -- 

        15          I think --

        16              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Well, I -- I 

        17          don't --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- that's appropriate.

        19              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  -- I don't really 

        20          think it's --

        21              Governor, if I could, I don't think it's 

        22          really a question of linkage.  I think it's a 

        23          question of there was an agreement that was 

        24          reached, and the question is, is it a good 

        25          agreement for the State.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              The way it works in this state, as I 

         2          understand it -- I guess I've been in this 

         3          business for a few years. 

         4              I grew up in Polk County, and I've heard a 

         5          lot of complaints about mining.  Mining is a 

         6          tough thing.  I still hear complaints.  We have 

         7          a lot of phosphate mines down there.

         8              But the way it works in this state, if you 

         9          buy some acreage and you want to mine it, you 

        10          apply for a permit.  If you meet the legal 

        11          standards for that permit, you get the right to 

        12          mine.  And I may not like it, and you may not 

        13          like it, but until the Legislature changes the 

        14          law, you're going to get that permit.

        15              And the way I see this thing as it 

        16          developed was, the Secretary first looked at 

        17          the permit, didn't like it on the 

        18          concrete plant, tried to stop it, realized they 

        19          probably couldn't stop it. 

        20              But in the process, seized an opportunity 

        21          for the State to gain from the purchase of the 

        22          Kirby pit.

        23              So, you know, that is the way I see that -- 

        24          the way this came about.  And in my view, 

        25          you know, that's a good deal for the State. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              So I'm going to vote to purchase the Kirby 

         2          mine. 

         3              I don't see it as an endorsement of the 

         4          concrete plant.  And, frankly, I certainly 

         5          don't think the Florida Audubon Society is here 

         6          today endorsing a concrete plant. 

         7              But I think we all are endorsing the 

         8          environmental benefit of purchasing the Kirby 

         9          mine.  And -- and that's what really is before 

        10          us. 

        11              And to -- to the extent that that was the 

        12          part of an agreement, part of the deal, it just 

        13          so happened it is a good deal, and that's why 

        14          I'm going to support it.

        15              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor, I have a 

        16          couple of questions for --

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- Secretary Struhs.

        19              I think we're all frustrated, everyone in 

        20          the audience, across-the-board, on some of 

        21          these issues.  No one's thrilled with 

        22          50 million tons and dynamiting near the 

        23          Ichetucknee. 

        24              But the issue before us today -- and I've 

        25          kind of been going through all this and 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          studying these all last night, the letters -- 

         2          has much more to do with the fact that the 

         3          air permits are -- have already been written 

         4          and noticed. 

         5              We're not here to say what -- we don't have 

         6          that choice.  Those decisions have

         7          already been made. 

         8              Secretary Struhs and DEP worked diligently, 

         9          we know how much they care about the 

        10          environment; and they saw the opportunity to go 

        11          in and settle some of the enforcement cases, 

        12          which you wouldn't have had the chance to do 

        13          before; and to go in and have an opportunity to 

        14          buy this very important mine.

        15              The issue of the cement plant is not 

        16          something that this body has the purview to 

        17          decide.  That's already decided.

        18              So -- but in the interest of that, I have 

        19          two questions for Secretary Struhs. 

        20              The first is:  This -- this perception of 

        21          the linkage and this linkage that is in the 

        22          contract, is that -- that's in no way going 

        23          to -- to stop you from pursuing every necessary 

        24          condition on the -- the permitting, on the 

        25          enforcement, on even modifications, I heard 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the -- I heard General Butterworth read that 

         2          dramatic modifications or something, that 

         3          indicated something. 

         4              But if we -- it's not going to keep you 

         5          from permitting, from approving, from 

         6          enforcing, and even modifying in some cases --

         7              MR. STRUHS:  We will --

         8              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- that's -- any of the 

         9          necessary conditions for the State.

        10              MR. STRUHS:  It will not.

        11              SECRETARY HARRIS:  The second question, 

        12          which is to me even more important because some 

        13          of these issues are -- are going to be -- we'll 

        14          face in the future. 

        15              There's obviously a need to -- to address 

        16          this -- this regulatory issue, maybe 

        17          cement plants that are close to our outstanding 

        18          rivers, things like this, so all of the State 

        19          mining regulations --

        20              MR. STRUHS:  Uh-hum. 

        21              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- I grew up in 

        22          Polk County, too.  I've heard about mining for 

        23          always.  But phosphate mining is -- is 

        24          different, and there are different regulations.

        25              So are you working closely with the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          Legislature to enhance those -- those reg-- 

         2          regulations so that perhaps we won't face these 

         3          kinds of situations in the future, and we can 

         4          protect springs such as the Ichetucknee and the 

         5          river? 

         6              MR. STRUHS:  Yes. 

         7              Madam Secretary, I appreciate that 

         8          question, because one of the things that it 

         9          does is it -- is it reveals the fact that of 

        10          all the testimony you have heard here today, no 

        11          one has suggested that we have not applied 

        12          every law available to us as intended and, 

        13          in fact, as vigorously as possible.  So nobody 

        14          has suggested that.

        15              To the extent that there are perceived 

        16          failures in terms of what the law has allowed 

        17          us to do, that's something that obviously needs 

        18          to be taken up with the Legislature.

        19              Specifically to your question in terms of 

        20          how we deal with rock mining, this has 

        21          obviously brought to, not just my attention, 

        22          but I think to Florida's attention, the 

        23          opportunity to perhaps revisit the way we 

        24          regulate rock mining. 

        25              And we have our geological survey looking 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          at that issue literally as we speak.  And we 

         2          would obviously be happy to come back to you 

         3          and to the Legislature with recommended options 

         4          in terms of how that might be improved in the 

         5          future.

         6              But the point is:  Every law available to 

         7          us has been exercised diligently and -- and 

         8          accurately.

         9              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I'll ask.

        10              Secretary Struhs, are there any more 

        11          witnesses, or are we --

        12              MR. STRUHS:  We --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- Mr. Eaton the finish?

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Governor, we -- we've 

        15          concluded with the witnesses -- or the -- the 

        16          testimony from the public. 

        17              We had reserved a number of folks from the 

        18          Department who can either do a quick 

        19          presentation now, or they can simply be 

        20          available to answer questions. 

        21              The individuals we have here, if there are 

        22          any more questions regarding the appraisal 

        23          process, I'd ask Eva Armstrong to address 

        24          those. 

        25              We have -- actually no longer a member of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          State government, but -- but former, 

         2          Wes Skiles, here with Karst Environmental, a 

         3          world renowned underwater photographer, 

         4          cave diver, and -- and hydrogeologist who would 

         5          be happy to -- to weigh in. 

         6              And to Jim Stevenson, who heads up the -- 

         7          the Florida Springs Program could also give 

         8          a -- a scientific explanation as to why this is 

         9          an integral part of protecting the 

        10          Ichetucknee Spring.

        11              So we have them available, and we can call 

        12          them up now, or we can --

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Anybody have any 

        14          questions --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  -- whatever your pleasure is.

        16              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have just 

        17          one -- just --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes, General.

        19              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- one 

        20          question.

        21              And this is with what -- what 

        22          Secretary Harris stated, and that is:  If the 

        23          Department wished to make any substantial 

        24          changes to the permit, then, of course, 

        25          Suwannee could walk.  Anderson could -- could 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          walk. 

         2              But if it is not substantial, what happens 

         3          then? 

         4              MR. STRUHS:  Then obviously, they would not 

         5          exercise that option. 

         6              I would -- I would add -- but I -- 

         7              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It says here 

         8          that any condition -- but who determines 

         9          whether it's not -- it's substantial or not?  

        10          The Court, you, or Suwannee? 

        11              MR. STRUHS:  I'm -- I'm going to give you a 

        12          longer answer than you want, but I think 

        13          it's -- it's probably important.

        14              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.

        15              MR. STRUHS:  You need to begin at the 

        16          beginning.  And to recognize that from the very 

        17          beginning, both parties, DEP as the regulator, 

        18          and Anderson Columbia as the applicant, have 

        19          believed that this plant was, and is 

        20          permittable. 

        21              There -- there has never been a difference 

        22          of opinion on that.  And, in fact, it was on a 

        23          permitting track.

        24              As we were getting ready to prepare that 

        25          permit, we recognized that this company, this 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          applicant, had a -- a record of environmental 

         2          violations that was unresolved. 

         3              And given that record, we exercised a 

         4          previously little used authority to deny that 

         5          application, to deny that application, as long 

         6          as they -- as long as that record prevented 

         7          them from providing a reasonable assurance that 

         8          they could not meet the permit conditions in 

         9          the proposed permit.

        10              That obviously led to litigation, and that 

        11          led in terms -- that litigation in terms led to 

        12          this -- this settlement proposal.

        13              But under the laws of Florida, they were, 

        14          before this ever began, before a suit was ever 

        15          filed, on track to fully meet all the legal 

        16          requirements for that plant at that location.

        17              What we have extracted, if you will, as a 

        18          result of exercising that authority, are 

        19          concessions and investments that go far beyond 

        20          what we could currently allow under Florida 

        21          law.

        22              So all this is above and beyond what would 

        23          ordinarily be required.

        24              So when you get to -- back to the -- the 

        25          General's question regarding the possibility of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          the permitting process not being drawn to 

         2          completion, and that then allowing the company 

         3          the option to not fulfill -- or -- or close 

         4          this deal, that is a highly unlikely scenario. 

         5              The -- if you -- if you vote -- to put it 

         6          another way, if you were to vote yes on this 

         7          agenda item, the permitting process for the 

         8          cement plant is going to continue; if you vote 

         9          no on this agenda item, the permitting process 

        10          for the cement plant is going to continue, 

        11          in -- in any event. 

        12              And, in fact, regardless of your decision, 

        13          those same protections that go above and beyond 

        14          what are currently required under Florida law 

        15          stay in place.  So that public health 

        16          protection is -- is still a part of the 

        17          arrangement.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --

        19              MR. STRUHS:  And just one other point. 

        20              TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.

        21              MR. STRUHS:  We specifically allowed 

        22          two years to resolve any of these outstanding 

        23          appeals of that permitting process to avoid the 

        24          situation -- or at least certainly dramatically 

        25          minimize the situation where you would actually 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          approve this agenda item, and then for some 

         2          kind of unforeseen complication in the 

         3          permitting process, the acquisition would not 

         4          go forward.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Nelson --

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  Dav--

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Well, first, did you get 

         8          your -- I don't know if you got your question 

         9          answered about substantial change. 

        10              If you could -- if you could answer that. 

        11              The -- the question is:  Who determines in 

        12          this agreement what substantial change is, the 

        13          definition of it.

        14              MR. STRUHS:  Well, let me --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a --

        16              MR. STRUHS:  -- check -- let me check with 

        17          counsel.

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- there's a question of 

        19          contract law, and -- or is there a defined 

        20          term, or --

        21              That was the question, wasn't it?

        22              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes, 

        23          Governor.  Thank you.

        24              GOVERNOR BUSH:  I appreciate the 

        25          information you provided, because it did bring 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          light again, similar to what Mr. Lee said about 

         2          what -- what we're here for. 

         3              But this is a separate question.

         4              MR. STRUHS:  If you could give me a moment, 

         5          please.

         6              The -- and if -- if there were a 

         7          disagreement over a change in the -- in the 

         8          permitting process, an unforeseen change in the 

         9          permitting process, the parties, meaning 

        10          Anderson Columbia, and DEP, would try to -- to 

        11          resolve those, obviously.

        12              If we were unable to do that, in fact, it 

        13          would go to court, and it could be pursued --

        14              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So it's --

        15              MR. STRUHS:  -- through litigation.

        16              GOVERNOR BUSH:  -- how -- what most things 

        17          would be --

        18              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.  I 

        19          obviously have -- I still have the wrong page 

        20          of the contract, and I apologize for that, 

        21          David.

        22              But it says:  Any conditions thereto that 

        23          are not acceptable to Suwannee shall have no 

        24          obligation under this settlement agreement. 

        25              So it's not two ways.  It's not a court, 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          it's one way. 

         2              Now, of course, I'll be glad to defend you 

         3          and say that they don't have the right to do 

         4          that, because I kind of think that this wording 

         5          is very weak on behalf of the -- of the State.  

         6          Very weak for us. 

         7              But I'll still be glad to defend you.  I 

         8          have no problem at all doing that.

         9              I would like -- this is why I think that if 

        10          we could get them to unlink this, if we could 

        11          redraft this page 4, if I can see the real 

        12          page 4 floating out there, I'd have a much -- 

        13          I'd have a much higher comfort level.  I really 

        14          would.

        15              David, I think you've done a wonderful job 

        16          here on this issue, I really and truly do.  And 

        17          I think you attempted to put a couple of things 

        18          together. 

        19              But I'm just worried, and as 

        20          General Milligan stated, perception; and as 

        21          Commissioner Nelson stated, policy.  This is 

        22          going to come back and bite us. 

        23              I really think -- I don't know why we're 

        24          under a January 31st deadline day.  It's almost 

        25          like when you get the call on -- the call that 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          says you can do it today, you can do it today; 

         2          if you don't do it today, the deal's no good.

         3              It may not be a bad deal to sit down and 

         4          work out the real page 4.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner Nelson.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  I would only add to 

         7          that. 

         8              David --

         9              MR. STRUHS:  Yes, sir.

        10              TREASURER NELSON:  -- clearly you were 

        11          trying to do something in the interest of the 

        12          State of Florida, and I commend you for that.  

        13          You saw that you could get a win-win. 

        14              What you've done is you have put us in a 

        15          policy position of the perception of approving 

        16          the cement plant if we buy the mine, which most 

        17          of us up here want purchased.

        18              And it is only augmented by the language 

        19          that the Attorney General just called your 

        20          attention to, which says that if the Department 

        21          denies the permit, or makes any substantial 

        22          payment, the company shall have no obligations 

        23          under the settlement agreement.

        24              And that is the -- the Hobson's choice that 

        25          we have here, which is a very difficult one 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          because of the perception of what is in the 

         2          best interest of the public.

         3              MR. STRUHS:  I -- and I appreciate that.  

         4          I think it's a fair point, and -- and I'll 

         5          grant you that.

         6              I would, however, with -- with all due 

         7          respect, suggest that it's largely an academic 

         8          point in that the permit conditions by the 

         9          applicant and the regulating agency, have 

        10          already been resolved. 

        11              I mean, the -- we know precisely what it is 

        12          we will be requiring the permit, and the 

        13          applicant has acceded to all those 

        14          requirements.

        15              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  If it were an 

        16          academic point, then the owner would withdraw 

        17          the linkage.

        18              TREASURER NELSON:  Yes.  And -- and to 

        19          add --

        20              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Add --

        21              TREASURER NELSON:  -- to --

        22              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- I might -- I 

        23          might also add, it's not just an academic point 

        24          or a point associated with this particular 

        25          event.  We're talking about policy in terms of 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          future events.

         2              MR. STRUHS:  One of the things that 

         3          happened to me on the way in here this morning 

         4          is somebody stopped me in the hallway and they 

         5          said, so, if you had to do it all over again, 

         6          would you have made available this opportunity 

         7          to the Cabinet? 

         8              And I didn't have to hesitate but for a 

         9          moment, and the answer is clearly yes.  We 

        10          could very easily as a regulatory agency, as an 

        11          Executive Branch agency, have resolved all 

        12          these regulatory issues, and never touched 

        13          this -- this mine. 

        14              We chose to do that, we chose to create 

        15          this additional opportunity -- essentially an 

        16          option for your consideration.  But we wanted 

        17          to do it in a way where we were not binding the 

        18          Cabinet. 

        19              We -- it would be illegal and -- and wrong 

        20          for us to take any steps that would bind you to 

        21          a particular decision. 

        22              And that's why we resolved it in a way 

        23          where all of our outstanding regulatory issues 

        24          are not just adequately resolved, but, in fact, 

        25          remarkably resolved, in many respects, going 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          far beyond what anybody I think would have ever 

         2          dreamed of just a few months ago in terms of a 

         3          corporate-wide compliance program, the gifts of 

         4          other important lands, restitution, the list 

         5          goes on and on.

         6              That stands alone as -- as a -- as a 

         7          resolution of long-standing environmental 

         8          problems of which we're very, very proud.  And 

         9          we tried to set it up so that would be a 

        10          stand-alone arrangement. 

        11              You may or may not choose to exercise this 

        12          additional option we've presented to you.  And 

        13          whatever your decision, we're -- we're very 

        14          proud of what we were able to achieve on the 

        15          regulatory side.

        16              To the extent that there is a -- a 

        17          perception of linkage, I would suggest that 

        18          there is a long tradition in resolving legal 

        19          issues, particularly in the environmental 

        20          field, of global settlements. 

        21              Global settlements, where in the interest 

        22          of all the parties, and the interest of 

        23          expediency, you put everything together.  And 

        24          this comes as close to that as possible, while 

        25          at the same time, preserving your independent 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          decision making authority.

         2              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I -- I am pleased 

         3          that you acknowledged that decision making in 

         4          the sunshine is a healthy way of doing 

         5          business. 

         6              Thank you.

         7              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  The -- I think one of the 

         9          things -- one of the ways to look at this is -- 

        10          one of the ways --

        11              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  There's a 

        12          relative out there.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  One of the ways that we 

        14          could look at this is, there is a -- what 

        15          happens if we don't do this? 

        16              And there the question is:  Is -- what is 

        17          the risk of -- related to the permitting? 

        18              Secretary Struhs has told me, and has told 

        19          everybody here, that they're completely 

        20          convinced that this plant is permittable. 

        21              So the chances are, after the very able 

        22          Office of the Attorney General and -- and other 

        23          groups that will use their -- their rights in 

        24          the court system, the -- I assess the risk 

        25          that -- in the end of the day, this is going to 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          be a permittable plant. 

         2              And then we -- and so, therefore, that will 

         3          happen.  It may happen two years from now, may 

         4          happen three years from now.  But we don't get, 

         5          as I understand it, the other benefits of 

         6          having taken advantage of this opportunity.

         7              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And --

         8              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So that's -- that's one 

         9          question.  That's -- that's -- 

        10              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  And the mining 

        11          continues.

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

        13              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  In other words, 

        14          the one thing --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  That's --

        16              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- about this 

        17          is --

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  And there's no taxes.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- the mining 

        20          stops.  So that's a very important part of it.

        21              TREASURER NELSON:  If we, Governor, agreed 

        22          to this today, and the appellate court 

        23          reversed, then there's no deal because of the 

        24          linkage here.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  But any purchase 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          that we --

         2              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Absolutely.

         3              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- agree to, the 

         4          seller doesn't have to accept it.  I mean, 

         5          the -- a normal -- a normal offer we'd make 

         6          from this Cabinet to purchase a piece of 

         7          property, the -- the seller could say I've 

         8          changed my mind any time. 

         9              This just happens to be one that's in 

        10          writing with reasons why.

        11              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Governor --

        12              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

        13              SECRETARY HARRIS:  -- if -- if we take what 

        14          Commissioner Nelson just said, and if we agree 

        15          that -- to this today, and the courts rule in 

        16          favor of Sierra, then it's the same as we voted 

        17          no.

        18              But if we agree to this today, and they 

        19          uphold that decision at the permitting, then at 

        20          least we'll have the mine. 

        21              And I think what -- what Secretary Struhs 

        22          was saying, and -- and it occurred to me, 

        23          because I was very concerned about the 

        24          perception and the -- the linkage scenario, 

        25          that perhaps really rather than not negotiating 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          well, perhaps Secretary Struhs and the DEP 

         2          negotiated very well. 

         3              Because if, indeed, this permitting process 

         4          is going to go forward if we vote yes, and this 

         5          permitting process is going to go forward if we 

         6          vote no, then at least he created the 

         7          perception that this was a negotiating point 

         8          when it wasn't, when we had -- when it's going 

         9          to go through anyway, was able to bring them to 

        10          the table for all of these enforcement issues, 

        11          was able to get Bagdad, and was able to 

        12          accomplish the -- the sale of the Kirby mine.

        13              So I'm going to support the -- the 

        14          acquisition of the Kirby mine and --

        15              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments or 

        16          questions? 

        17              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  Just -- just one 

        18          quickly to Commissioner Nelson's -- 

        19          Treasurer Nelson's concern that -- and I guess 

        20          maybe the Attorney General as well, that there 

        21          seems to be not a guarantee that if we vote for 

        22          this today and if something happens, there's 

        23          no -- not a guarantee that we actually may get 

        24          the mine.

        25              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Right.


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  But -- but then the 

         2          remedy for that concern is not to vote against 

         3          the purchase of the mine, because that will 

         4          certainly guarantee that we won't get it.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Exactly.

         6              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  So it's -- I would 

         7          think, even if you have that concern, you'd 

         8          go ahead and vote for it today.

         9              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's the 

        10          Hobson's choice we have here.

        11              And if I can just read something here more 

        12          into the record.  And the votes aren't here for 

        13          it, but I think this is really one way out. 

        14              Another way out, which I think I'd prefer 

        15          would be -- and maybe it's the worst way, 

        16          because if you -- everybody get more e-mails.

        17              The issue is page --

        18              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Not all of us read our 

        19          e-mails, General.

        20              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Right.

        21              Page 4, I obviously don't have the right 

        22          page, and I -- and if we can work on this 

        23          page 4, and -- and the linkage would not be so 

        24          strong, I would not be as -- as concerned about 

        25          perception. 


                  January 25, 2000
         1              We still have policy problems insofar as we 

         2          never bought land like this before, but I think 

         3          that Dave has done a great job.  If I had a -- 

         4          a gold pencil, I'd go over there now and just 

         5          put a big gold star right behind that -- 

         6          the board behind him. 

         7              But I'll go with this one, which basically 

         8          first says that -- that we -- this agreement 

         9          for sale and purchase presents this Board with 

        10          two very undesirable choices: 

        11              Either not approve it today, 

        12          Anderson Columbia withdraws its agreement to be 

        13          a willing seller. 

        14              On the other hand, Anderson Columbia has 

        15          placed so many conditions precedent to the sale 

        16          of the mine that there are no guarantees the 

        17          people of Florida will be able to acquire the 

        18          property. 

        19              One of the most troublesome conditions is 

        20          that all State and local approvals must be 

        21          granted and -- and be legally effective on the 

        22          cement plant before closing the mine. 

        23              In addition, any litigation must be 

        24          resolved in favor of Anderson Columbia, thereby 

        25          linking two unrelated issues.  The purchase 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          perhaps is not controversial, but the cement 

         2          plant obviously is.

         3              As you know, the Office of the 

         4          Attorney General has intervened and than 

         5          challenged to the local approval.  The reason 

         6          for my -- for my interventions are clear. 

         7              I believe that local government approval of 

         8          a cement plant is material and inconsistent 

         9          with the County's Comprehensive Plan.  The 

        10          County's interpretation that a high impact 

        11          industrial resource based project such as a 

        12          cement plant may be authorized in a rural, 

        13          agriculturally designated area by merely filing 

        14          a site and development plan short-circuits the 

        15          substantive and public resource protections 

        16          included in a plan. 

        17              If the County's decision is allowed to 

        18          stand, then the County would be free to permit 

        19          any such high density development without 

        20          meaningful standards. 

        21              This would preclude the public from 

        22          meaningful participation because the public 

        23          would not know what type of project may be 

        24          authorized by the County officials in over 

        25          90 percent of the county, including the most 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          environmentally sensitive lands. 

         2              This is not just some procedural defect.  

         3          The County should have required either an 

         4          amendment to the comprehensive plan; or at the 

         5          minimum, that the development be considered as 

         6          a special exception.  Either of these would 

         7          have assured a full airing of the important 

         8          issues at the local level. 

         9              We filed a Notice of Appeal of a local 

        10          judge's decision.  And because of that appeal, 

        11          even if the DEP permit is issued, the applicant 

        12          cannot proceed to construct the plant.

        13              If Anderson Columbia is confident of its 

        14          ability to win the appeal, it should agree to 

        15          sell the mine separate from the local approval. 

        16              If Anderson Columbia is not willing to do 

        17          that, this Board has other means to acquire the 

        18          mine other than approving this agreement for 

        19          sale and purchase.

        20              The statute grants the State the authority 

        21          to pursue eminent domain under certain 

        22          circumstances. 

        23              Therefore, I would move this Board, direct 

        24          staff to propose to Anderson Columbia an 

        25          agreement for sale and purchase that does not 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          tie the acquisition to the issuance of permits 

         2          or of the local approvals.

         3              TREASURER NELSON:  I second the motion.

         4              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  I would like to 

         5          offer a substitute motion. 

         6              I happen to like everything that the 

         7          Attorney General said.  I have one major 

         8          concern though.  And that is that if, in fact, 

         9          we would do this, I think we've set the 

        10          precedent that eliminates Secretary Struhs and 

        11          his organization to have and perform global 

        12          settlements that will give us the opportunity 

        13          to take lands with willing sellers, as opposed 

        14          to eminent domain processes, which, as we all 

        15          know, are very expensive.

        16              And so because of that, I'm going to offer 

        17          a substitute motion that says that we approve 

        18          it, although the approving of the purchasing -- 

        19          my motion would say, that has in our minds, is 

        20          the approval of the purchase, period, 

        21          notwithstanding other agreements that are made 

        22          by other bodies besides ours.

        23              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  I agree. 

        24              I think that -- I still feel like that to 

        25          approve this is not an endorsement of any 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          permitting process that's outside the purview 

         2          of this body, and we're not endorsing a cement 

         3          plant. 

         4              We're simply endorsing the purchase of this 

         5          property, which is before us, and I would -- I 

         6          second that substitute motion.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  So it's -- this is the 

         8          first time as Governor we've had one of these,  

         9          so I want to make sure I do this right.

        10              There's a substitute motion that has been 

        11          seconded. 

        12              Is there any discussion on that? 

        13              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Yes, 

        14          Governor, I -- I have some discussion here. 

        15              I don't disagree with what -- what -- what 

        16          Commissioner Gallagher is saying at all.  But 

        17          unfortunately we have a page 4. 

        18              So you're basically saying then that you 

        19          are agreeing to this without page 4, because 

        20          with page 4 here, it's linked, whether you want 

        21          it linked or not, whether you -- whether you 

        22          want to vote for it or not, you are voting for 

        23          this cement plant.  It's there.  It's in black 

        24          and white with yellow highlighting.

        25              The -- so I don't -- so I mean, I know 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          where you're trying to go, I know what you're 

         2          trying to say. 

         3              But I'm not sure you want to go there.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other comments? 

         5              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes.

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  Yes.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yes.

         8              TREASURER NELSON:  Go ahead.  I defer.

         9              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I was just 

        10          going to comment that I do take exception to 

        11          the Commissioner's comment in reference to 

        12          tying Mr. Struhs' hands because I --  

        13          Secretary Struhs' hands, because I don't see 

        14          that happening at all as a result of -- of what 

        15          we may do in support of the Attorney General's 

        16          proposal. 

        17              That does not tie his hands in any future 

        18          activities where he wants to look at things in 

        19          the global manner.  It just does in this 

        20          particular case remove the contingency, or 

        21          the -- the linkage. 

        22              And so I -- I -- I think your argument is 

        23          fallacious in terms of why it -- we need to 

        24          have a substitute amendment.

        25              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Well, if I may 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          argue. 

         2              I'm going to be a very upset person if 

         3          because we don't do the substitute, that we 

         4          lose the opportunity to purchase this property.  

         5          And that's where I'm coming from. 

         6              And I -- I think all of us don't like the 

         7          perception of linkage, we don't like any of 

         8          those tie-ins. 

         9              But I think we also have to realize that by 

        10          with-- withdrawing this opportunity to purchase 

        11          the property, we may either pay a lot more, or 

        12          not get it. 

        13              And the other thing you have to remember 

        14          is, the mining continues to happen at that 

        15          site, unless we go with this agreement to get 

        16          it to stop.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Secretary Harris?

        18              SECRETARY HARRIS:  Yes. 

        19              Governor, I support the substitute 

        20          amendment in that the permits are going to 

        21          occur if we vote yes; the permits are going to 

        22          occur if we vote no. 

        23              However, if we vote yes, we have the 

        24          opportunity to purchase the mine, we have an 

        25          opportunity on the appraisals to obtain the 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          capping of the fees of the attorneys, and 

         2          there's opportunities that we wouldn't 

         3          otherwise have if we go back to a negotiated 

         4          settlement.

         5              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Any other discussion?

         6              TREASURER NELSON:  Yes, sir.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Commissioner.  Excuse me.

         8              TREASURER NELSON:  I think that we would be 

         9          setting a tremendously strong precedent of 

        10          wrong public policy if we approved a document 

        11          that said that if any substantial changes to 

        12          the permit, the air permit, are made, that the 

        13          seller has no obligations. 

        14              For us to make a public policy decision of 

        15          the acquisition of environmentally sensitive 

        16          land to that kind of condition being put upon 

        17          by the proposed seller, I think is -- is a 

        18          reckless precedent that we need to consider in 

        19          our vote here. 

        20              And, therefore, I oppose the substitute, 

        21          and support the original motion of the 

        22          Attorney General.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  General Butterworth.

        24              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think 

        25          you're tired of hearing me, Governor, but --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              GOVERNOR BUSH:  You can bring up page 4 one 

         2          more time?

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  When I told 

         4          you 4:00 o'clock, I -- I didn't realize that 

         5          there'd be that significance to it.

         6              As Commissioner Nelson stated, it's bad 

         7          public policy of not being able to make any 

         8          change. 

         9              But I'd just like to add the extra words:  

        10          Or any conditions thereto that are not 

        11          acceptable to Suwannee. 

        12              I think we could resolve this issue perhaps 

        13          with a deferral.  If the four votes are there, 

        14          I would urge you, please, to consider perhaps a 

        15          recess, perhaps a deferral.  Because I don't 

        16          think you want to go on record with this 

        17          paragraph. 

        18              I just do not think you want to.

        19              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Can I ask the 

        20          General a question? 

        21              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Yeah.

        22              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  If that paragraph 

        23          didn't exist, and let's say that that -- that 

        24          agreement didn't exist.  Let's say that we had 

        25          a -- a person out there that went and talked to 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          DEP and said, by the way, I think if you make 

         2          an offer under the offering side of this, I 

         3          might agree to it. 

         4              And it came to the Cabinet.  Because there 

         5          are some things that are floating.  We -- we 

         6          would most likely take that shot and agree to 

         7          that, because the other side wasn't there.  

         8          Almost everybody here has said that.

         9              Any other seller could, for any reason 

        10          whatsoever, whether it's as obnoxious as this 

        11          here, or any other reason he wanted to dream 

        12          up, say, by the way, I changed my mind, I want 

        13          to keep mining there.  I got a big offer from 

        14          somebody else, and I think it's -- and -- and 

        15          I'm going to be able to sell a lot of 

        16          lime rock, and so I'm going to keep the mine 

        17          going.  And that's where we'd be, the same 

        18          place.

        19              So I'm concerned that we're going to 

        20          lose -- somebody may come along and lime rock 

        21          may be very valuable all of a sudden because 

        22          the Legislature starts looking at the -- at the 

        23          problems of taking lime rock out, and makes it 

        24          tougher to be in the lime rock business and 

        25          mining.  And all of a sudden, this mine triples 


                  January 25, 2000
         1          in value, and we never get a chance to buy it. 

         2              And so if y'all are willing to take that 

         3          chance --

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a --

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  -- that's what 

         6          you're doing.

         7              GOVERNOR BUSH:  There's a motion and a 

         8          second for the substitute amendment.  I think 

         9          we've talked about it enough. 

        10              All in favor of Commissioner Gallagher's 

        11          motion, say aye.

        12              THE CABINET:  Aye.

        13              GOVERNOR BUSH:  All opposed.

        14              TREASURER NELSON:  No.

        15              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  No.

        16              COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  No.

        17              GOVERNOR BUSH:  It passes by 4/3.

        18              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  Which takes 

        19          5 votes I think, doesn't it?

        20              SECRETARY HARRIS:  No.

        21              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  It doesn't?

        22              Oh, okay.

        23              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Takes 4 votes. 

        24              Now, I guess -- is that -- we have to vote 

        25          on the --


                  January 25, 2000
         1              COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD:  No, we're done.

         2              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  That's it.

         3              ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We're done.

         4              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Okay.  That's it.

         5              COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:  End of meeting.

         6              GOVERNOR BUSH:  Thank you very much. 

         7              (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 

         8          Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)

         9                              *   *   *

        10              (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at 

        11          1:45 p.m.)
















                  January 25, 2000
         1                    CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER




         5     STATE OF FLORIDA:

         6     COUNTY OF LEON:

         7              I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 

         8     the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 

         9     time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 

        10     notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 

        11     pages numbered 76 through 268 are a true and correct 

        12     record of the aforesaid proceedings.

        13              I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 

        14     employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 

        15     nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 

        16     or financially interested in the foregoing action.

        17              DATED THIS 3RD day of FEBRUARY, 2000. 


        20                   LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
              100 Salem Court
        21                   Tallahassee, Florida 32301