T H E C A B I N E T
S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
Representing:
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
April 27, 1999, commencing at approximately 9:10 a.m.
Reported by:
LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
Certified Court Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850/878-2221
2
APPEARANCES:
Representing the Florida Cabinet:
JEB BUSH
Governor
BOB CRAWFORD
Commissioner of Agriculture
BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
KATHERINE HARRIS
Secretary of State
BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
BILL NELSON
Treasurer
TOM GALLAGHER
Commissioner of Education
*
3
April 27, 1999
I N D E X
ITEM ACTION PAGE
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Tom Herndon,
Executive Director)
1 Approved 5
2 Approved 5
3 (A) and (B) Approved 6
4 Approved 6
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
(Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
Director)
1 Approved 12
2 Approved 12
3 Approved 13
4 Approved 13
5 Approved 14
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Donna Arduin,
Secretary)
1 Approved 15
2 Withdrawn 15
3 Approved 15
4 Approved 15
5 Approved 16
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
Deputy Commissioner)
1 Approved 30
2 Approved 31
3 Approved 31
4 Approved 51
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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April 27, 1999
I N D E X
(Continued)
ITEM ACTION PAGE
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES:
(Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
Executive Director)
1 Approved 53
2 Approved 53
MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION:
(Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D.,
Executive Director)
A Approved 54
B Approved 54
C Approved 55
D Approved 54
E Approved 55
F Deferred 123
G Approved 126
H Approved 126
I Approved 127
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
(Presented David B. Struhs,
Secretary)
1 Approved 128
2 Approved 128
3 Approved 128
4 Approved 129
Substitute 5 Approved 129
6 Approved 162
7 Approved 163
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 166
*
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 5
April 27, 1999
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:30 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of
4 Administration.
5 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 1 is approval of
6 the minutes of the meeting held on April 13th,
7 1999.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Oh, no.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 2 is approval of
15 a fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding
16 300 million dollars, State of Florida, State
17 Board of Education Lottery Revenue Bonds.
18 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 MR. HERNDON: Item Numbers 3 (A) and (B),
23 Governor, are to recommend approval of filing
24 several rules for adoption, and then several
25 others for repeal for the Hurricane Catastrophe
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 6
April 27, 1999
1 Fund.
2 TREASURER NELSON: And I move it.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 4 is submitting
9 for information and review the investment
10 performance and fund balance analysis for the
11 month of March 1999.
12 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MR. HERNDON: Governor, if I could, with
17 your permission, spend just one brief moment
18 highlighting the activities in the Legislature
19 as it relates --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
21 MR. HERNDON: -- to the pension reform
22 legislation.
23 I sent to the Board members a status report
24 last Friday. As I suspect most of you know, a
25 good bit of activity occurred yesterday,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 7
April 27, 1999
1 particularly in the Senate.
2 And just to highlight two bills in -- of
3 particular note, the Lawton Chiles Tobacco Bill
4 did pass out of the Senate yesterday afternoon.
5 As you know, there is a substantial
6 difference in the funding for that program of
7 approximately 500 million dollars, and also in
8 the manner in which those funds are to be
9 spent.
10 And that bill -- both those bills are now
11 down in the House, and presumably, that will be
12 dealt with over the course of the next
13 four days.
14 The other substantial activity that
15 occurred yesterday was that the Pension Reform
16 Bill, Senate Bill 356, was amended on to House
17 Bill 1883, which is the Contribution Rate
18 Reduction Bill. And as you know, that has
19 about a 1.1 billion dollar impact on State and
20 local governments by virtue of reducing the
21 contribution rates for pension contributions
22 for the upcoming fiscal year.
23 With the addition of Senate Bill 356, that
24 has obviously complicated matters
25 significantly, and obviously raises some
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 8
April 27, 1999
1 concerns. As we had pointed out in our earlier
2 status reports, the House has never had any
3 hearings on pension reform legislation of any
4 kind this year.
5 And Senate Bill 356 probably -- I don't
6 have a scientific survey, but -- but our
7 understanding is that it's probably the most
8 significant pension reform legislation in this
9 country, short of Federal reform. I mean, it's
10 reforming a system with three-quarters of a
11 million participants, it has a fiscal impact of
12 about 325 million dollars, worst case --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Say that again?
14 MR. HERNDON: About 325 million dollars
15 worst case fiscal impact. And obviously a
16 number of other dimensions to it that are
17 problematic.
18 It obviously looks like its heading for
19 resolution in some manner with your
20 participation, the other members of the Board,
21 and the leadership in the Legislature, my guess
22 is, the last couple of days of this week.
23 At present, we have no particular insight
24 into its expectations. But given the House's
25 reluctance thus far to address this subject, it
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 9
April 27, 1999
1 seems somewhat unlikely that in the last week
2 they would pass the most far-reaching and
3 fairly expensive pension reform legislation
4 without any hearings and so forth.
5 So that's where things stand.
6 I'd be happy to elaborate at any length
7 that you would like on -- on any of the
8 individual items.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why -- the
10 350 million dollar estimate, what is the
11 reason -- why is it -- why is your estimation
12 that --
13 MR. HERNDON: -- the -- the State
14 actuaries, Milliman & Robertson, are estimating
15 that when you provide employees with choice
16 between options, there is always a cost
17 associated with providing that choice.
18 In this case, you have a defined benefit
19 and defined contribution plans that are
20 essentially running parallel as a choice to
21 employees. And the cost occurs as a
22 consequence of employees making imperfect
23 choices when they opt into one plan or another,
24 and the impact that that imperfect choice has
25 on the pension plan in the long-term.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 10
April 27, 1999
1 Now, the 325 million dollars that I
2 discussed is admittedly a worst case scenario,
3 but it is also an annual cost. So that's a
4 fairly significant long-term impact on the
5 pension fund.
6 And if you would like, our chief economist
7 is here, we can go into more detail about the
8 implications of making perfect and imperfect
9 choices on the pension plan, and how that plays
10 out.
11 We've provided your offices with some
12 details on that, and we'd be happy to meet with
13 each of you at any point. So --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: The other -- the other
15 point I -- as -- as I understand it, yesterday
16 the Senate passed out their -- their proposal
17 attached to the bill that also lowered the
18 contribution rate?
19 MR. HERNDON: Precisely. That's correct.
20 They -- they also added on another bill
21 that -- that brings emergency medical
22 technicians into the equation.
23 But -- but you're absolutely right. They
24 have taken the bill, which I assume is pretty
25 must-pass, since it's got a billion dollar
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 11
April 27, 1999
1 financial impact on it, and -- and complicated
2 it pretty substantially. So --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, do you have
4 any --
5 TREASURER NELSON: (Shaking head.)
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
7 MR. HERNDON: We'll continue to keep you
8 posted. And -- and please feel free at any
9 time to -- to pass on any requests for
10 information.
11 Thank you.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's interesting.
13 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
14 was concluded.)
15 *
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 12
April 27, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance.
2 MR. WATKINS: Good morning.
3 Item Number 1 is approval of the minutes of
4 the April 13th meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
6 minutes.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 2 is a resolution
12 authorizing the competitive sale of up to
13 300 million dollars in Lottery Revenue Bonds
14 for educational facilities.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is a resolution
20 authorizing the issuance of up to
21 nine million two hundred twenty thousand
22 dollars in parking facility revenue bonds for
23 Florida International University.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 13
April 27, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 4 is a report of
4 award of seventy-four million doll-- the
5 competitive sale of seventy-four million
6 eighty-five thousand of capital outlay bonds
7 for educational facilities for local school
8 districts and community colleges.
9 The bonds were sold at competitive sale,
10 and awarded to the low bidder at a true
11 interest cost of 4.6375 percent.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a motion?
15 Moved and sec--
16 Second?
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 5 is a report of
21 award on the competitive sale of
22 twenty-one million one hundred seventy-five
23 thousand dollars of facilities pool revenue
24 bonds.
25 It was a multipurpose issue consisting of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 14
April 27, 1999
1 nine million ten thousand dollars of new money,
2 and twelve million one hundred sixty-five
3 thousand dollars in the refunding component.
4 And the refunding resulted in savings of
5 approximately -- gross savings of approximately
6 1.3 million, and present value savings of
7 seven hundred and sixty-five thousand.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
14 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
15 concluded.)
16 *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 15
April 27, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Administration Commission.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
3 minutes.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 Item 2?
9 MS. ARDUIN: Item 2 has been withdrawn.
10 Item 3, I recommend approval of a transfer
11 of general revenue appropriations for the
12 Department of Children and Families for adult
13 congregate living care facilities.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MS. ARDUIN: Item 4, I recommend approval
19 of transfer of general revenue appropriations
20 for Justice Administration for Capital
21 Collateral Regional Counsel.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION 16
April 27, 1999
1 MS. ARDUIN: Item 5. I recommend approval
2 of transfer of general revenue appropriations
3 for the Department of Legal Affairs for the
4 Special Prosec-- Statewide Prosecutor.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 Thank you.
10 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
11 concluded.)
12 *
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 17
April 27, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Governor, before
3 we start, I would like to recognize a former
4 Cabinet member who is -- I saw here in the
5 audience somewhere. I think he might still be
6 here.
7 Doyle Connor. And he is with the South
8 Side Elementary School Student Council.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There he is.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So -- would you
11 all stand up, all you Student Council members?
12 MR. CONNOR: From my hometown. They're
13 very bright students here. This is the
14 Student Council of that school.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How about --
16 MR. CONNOR: They're enjoying the
17 proceedings, very educational for them.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we welcome you.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you,
20 Commissioner.
21 Stand up, students. Let's -- let's all see
22 you.
23 Very good.
24 (Applause.)
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 18
April 27, 1999
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Item 1.
2 MR. PIERSON: Item 1 is critical teacher
3 shortage -- shortage areas. And Pat Tornillo
4 has requested to speak on this item.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning, Mr. Tornillo.
6 MR. TORNILLO: Good morning.
7 Thank you for the opportunity to speak
8 before this distinguished Board. And
9 specifically, I want to address two of your
10 agenda items this morning, the critical
11 shortage areas, and the report which you are --
12 received and will be voting on.
13 While they are two different subjects, they
14 both have common roots, and that's the
15 Readiness for College Report that you also
16 have.
17 They both deal with the quality of our K-12
18 public education system, and the quality of
19 education we provide for our children.
20 Experts agree that the quality of our K-12
21 public education system revolves around quality
22 teachers providing a caring, competent, and
23 qualified teacher for every child. And
24 measures to reduce the poverty rate among
25 children are the most important ingredients in
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 19
April 27, 1999
1 education reform today.
2 And when we look at the end product for our
3 K-12 system, what we want to know is: Is that
4 high school graduate ready for postsecondary
5 education?
6 Did that high school graduate receive the
7 highest quality elementary and secondary
8 education possible?
9 But to answer that question honestly, we
10 need to look closely at the quality of teachers
11 we place before our students throughout his or
12 her elementary and secondary educational
13 experience.
14 When we judge the quality of the teacher,
15 we must know: Was that teacher assigned by the
16 school district to teach a subject or subjects
17 for which he or she holds no certification or
18 training.
19 If the answer's yes, even if that teacher
20 taught only one class out-of-field, then we
21 must acknowledge that students in that class
22 lack the quality education they deserve.
23 In the Department of Education report,
24 critical shortage areas, '99 to 2000, you can
25 see for yourself that Florida is placing a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 20
April 27, 1999
1 growing number of out-of-field teachers in
2 classrooms.
3 Does it mean these teachers are
4 incompetent? No.
5 What it means is these teachers are
6 probably some of our most able educators, but
7 they should not be held accountable to teach
8 subject matter that is out of their field.
9 Instead, we should allow these teachers to
10 excel in the classroom by teaching subject
11 matter that they have earned certification in,
12 and have received ongoing training to be the
13 best in their special field.
14 Your dentist may be the best dentist in his
15 field, but you don't go to him if you need
16 heart surgery.
17 Why is it that this same policy is not
18 adhered to in the field of education?
19 Why is it that at a time of teacher
20 shortage -- and this has happened before in
21 this country -- we need 100,000 or so teachers
22 in Florida through the year 2005, 2 million
23 nationwide. Every time that happens, we think
24 the answer is to lower the standards, not
25 maintain the standards.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 21
April 27, 1999
1 And so what we finally wind up with is
2 sometimes a School Board will say, I've got to
3 have a warm body.
4 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
5 MR. TORNILLO: As long as that person is
6 living, breathing, and can walk, then we're
7 going to put them in that classroom.
8 Why do districts allow this practice to
9 continue against the very wishes of the
10 teachers who are told they must teach classes
11 outside their realm of education and
12 experience?
13 But answering why, as occurred in years
14 past, is not nearly as important as asking why
15 are we not now demanding an end to the practice
16 in the years before us?
17 Why does the Education Reform Plan that is
18 up for a final vote this week in the
19 Legislature call for a continuation of this
20 practice in several respects? The so-called A+
21 plan specifically allows voucher schools to use
22 non-certified teachers.
23 Out-of-field teaching, whether it's a
24 voucher student, or a nonvoucher student, is
25 wrong. Dead wrong. Out-of-field teaching
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 22
April 27, 1999
1 could run amuck. Quality is going to suffer,
2 more and more high school students will be
3 ill-prepared to enter college.
4 At a time when on the one hand we are
5 demanding quality schools and quality teachers;
6 on the other hand, why would we allow voucher
7 schools to offer them less? It makes
8 absolutely no sense.
9 I urge you, Governor, and members of this
10 Board, to use your influence to ensure that all
11 schools require not just certified teachers,
12 but qualified, capable certified teachers.
13 Out-of-field teaching did not begin
14 overnight. You'll find that the practice began
15 as a result of Florida's unprecedented growth,
16 combined with this state's inability to match
17 that growth by training and recruiting teachers
18 to fill the needs of our schools.
19 We grow approximately 6,000 teachers in all
20 public and private universities in Florida.
21 That is, they graduate. That doesn't mean that
22 they go into teaching.
23 We import over 7,000 teachers from outside
24 of the state of Florida, over which we have
25 very little control about their training.
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 23
April 27, 1999
1 Despite all that we have learned about the
2 need for quality teachers, this state is still
3 doing a poor job at enticing young people into
4 the teaching profession, especially in the
5 growing critical shortage areas.
6 I have to tell you that in the report,
7 you'll see that the number of critical shortage
8 areas remain strong in math, science,
9 technology, ESOL, and most all
10 exceptionalities.
11 And the problem only becomes exacerbated as
12 this state refuses to adequately deal with
13 training and recruiting of teachers.
14 Yes, we have initiated some programs, such
15 as the Student Loan Forgiveness Program and the
16 Student Tuition Reimbursement Program, both in
17 1983, because we had -- we faced a critical
18 shortage area in those years also.
19 Most recently, we have initiated the
20 Florida Teacher Scholarship Program. That is
21 sort of a combination of these other two
22 programs. And they're all good beginnings, but
23 not nearly enough to entice young minds to
24 choose the teaching profession over other, more
25 financially lucrative professions.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 24
April 27, 1999
1 We can offer them free tuition, or forgive
2 their student loans, but that alone will not
3 let them pay the bills as they begin their
4 careers, and begin building families.
5 In a few school districts in Florida, the
6 beginning teacher salary qualifies for
7 food stamps. Not all. But even if there's one
8 district, that's one district too many.
9 So I urge you -- I think we can do better,
10 we must do better -- that we continue to work
11 toward raising standards, standards for
12 students, standards for teachers, and all the
13 schools, public and private, that serve the
14 students of Florida.
15 Thank you, Governor; and thank you members
16 of the State Board.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Tornillo.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I have a
19 question.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
21 TREASURER NELSON: One of the things that
22 Mr. Tornillo pointed out was the desirability
23 of the Tuition Reimbursement Program and the
24 Forgivable Loan Program.
25 And as a mechanism --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 25
April 27, 1999
1 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
2 TREASURER NELSON: -- by which to address
3 the critical teacher shortages.
4 And I noticed in the report that you bring
5 to us today that both of those programs, the
6 Tuition Reimbursement Program, and the
7 Forgivable Loan Program, decreased between the
8 school year 96-97; and the following year,
9 97-98.
10 What are the proposed funding levels for
11 this next year? And how does that compare to
12 the decreases that occurred last year from the
13 year before?
14 MR. PIERSON: We've just recently done a
15 budget amendment, which increased this year's
16 funding for that -- for the nonforgiveness
17 program.
18 TREASURER NELSON: All right. Would you --
19 MR. PIERSON: -- and the funding --
20 TREASURER NELSON: -- give me -- give me
21 some dollar figures?
22 MR. PIERSON: It's -- it's -- the funding
23 for next year is four million one. And, if I'm
24 not mistaken, the funding for this year is
25 right at four million now, with the -- with the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 26
April 27, 1999
1 budget amendment.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. And then what was
3 the amount on the previous year from which it
4 decreased from?
5 MS. COLSTON: The previous year budget
6 amendment has been 2.6 is what we got last year
7 as well.
8 TREASURER NELSON: All right. Now,
9 let's -- let's -- which year are we talking
10 about? 97-98?
11 MS. COLSTON: 97-98, the appropriation was
12 2.6 million.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. And the previous
14 year, 96-97, was how much?
15 MS. COLSTON: Appropriation was 2.6.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Two point six. It was
17 2.6 in both years.
18 MS. COLSTON: Correct.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. And the proposal
20 is now what?
21 MR. PIERSON: Both -- both last year and
22 this year, we had a requested budget amendment
23 for additional funding to -- to cover the
24 requests.
25 And it -- I think --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 27
April 27, 1999
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Which go to
2 four million --
3 MR. PIERSON: Last year it was --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- four point one.
5 MR. PIERSON: -- four million also.
6 MS. COLSTON: Right.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. On page 118 and
8 119 of your report, Table 2, Critical Teacher
9 Shortage Tuition Reimbursement Program, amount
10 disbursed, 96-97, 682,000; and 97-98, it went
11 down to 542,000.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But if you'll look
13 at Table 1, you'll see that the Critical
14 Teacher Shortage, Student Loan Forgiveness
15 Program is -- went from two million five to
16 three million two between 96-97 and 97-98.
17 So they're two separate programs, and
18 they're --
19 TREASURER NELSON: Right.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- giving you the
21 total of the two.
22 TREASURER NELSON: And in Table 3 --
23 likewise in Table 3, with regard to the
24 Critical Shortage Forgivable Loan Program, in
25 96-97, it was a million seven hundred -- a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 28
April 27, 1999
1 million seventy-nine thousand, and it went down
2 to seven hund-- nine hundred and seventy-one
3 thousand.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Now, this --
5 TREASURER NELSON: So what makes up the
6 difference into Table 1?
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This shows -- the
8 difference here -- what you're looking at is,
9 those are teachers that have gone in for
10 specialties, which are the ESE specialties.
11 And they break them out.
12 And as you see, the total number of
13 forgivable teachers that qualified was 226.
14 And the amount of dollars is a reflection of
15 the number of teachers that are available to
16 get the Forgivable Loan Program. And it
17 dropped from 250 to 226 is why there was a
18 drop -- a shortage there.
19 And if you'll look at the other numbers,
20 you'll see that the increase that you find in
21 Table 1 reflects the increase in the number of
22 teachers that we were able to qualify for the
23 Loan Forgiveness Program.
24 So the dollars are a reflection of we
25 obviously are trying to encourage teachers to
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1 go into these critical areas, and ESE is a very
2 critical, tough area to teach in, and very hard
3 to get people to enter.
4 And the idea of this is to get people to go
5 into it. And when we're successful, it costs
6 us more money, which is good; and when we're
7 not successful, it costs us less.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, isn't it true
9 that when -- if there is greater demand, that
10 in the past, as I think occurred this year as
11 well, we've had an amendment to the budget, and
12 have gotten the funding.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Exactly. We've --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: So this is driven --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- we've always
16 funded --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- by demand, not by level
18 of appropriation.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's correct.
20 MR. PIERSON: In both years, all requests
21 have been funded.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. We have
23 requested --
24 MR. PIERSON: -- with the budget
25 amendments.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- every -- every
2 teacher that was qualified to get it, and --
3 and applied.
4 So the -- the amount of dollars is
5 reflective as to how many teachers were
6 available to collect it, and we funded those.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Where are we here?
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We are on Item 2,
10 I believe.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was Item 1?
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let's -- let's
13 approve Item 1 first.
14 I'll make a motion on that.
15 This is approving the critical list --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- for this --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a --
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- coming year.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- second?
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any additional discussion?
23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is adoption of a
25 resolution requesting the Division of
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1 Bond Finance of the State Board of
2 Administration to authorize the issuance and
3 sale of not exceeding 300 million dollars,
4 State Board of Education Lottery Revenue Bonds,
5 Series 1999A.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. PIERSON: Item 3 is Joint Use
11 Facilities Projects.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MR. PIERSON: Item 4, Readiness for College
18 report.
19 Nate Johnson will give a -- an overhead
20 presentation on the Readiness for College
21 Report.
22 MR. JOHNSON: Good morning, Governor, and
23 members of the Cabinet.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
25 MR. JOHNSON: Thanks for the opportunity to
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1 speak on this important issue today.
2 The Readiness for College Report, as
3 you know, is a statutorily required report that
4 we do every year. And we report to the Board
5 of Education, the Legislature, and to school
6 districts, which receive much more detailed
7 reports than -- than you have, for purposes of
8 research, right down to the student level data
9 from the report.
10 The first slide, please.
11 Second slide, please.
12 The second.
13 This slide shows what the Readiness for
14 College Report covers. And it's important to
15 keep in mind that we're not looking at all
16 high school graduates in this case.
17 What we're looking at is 1996-97 Florida
18 public high school graduates who entered a
19 public community college or university in the
20 12 months immediately following their
21 graduation.
22 The report uses math, reading, and writing
23 placement test data from public community
24 colleges and universities. And they report
25 that data to the Department of Education, and
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1 we compile it into a -- a master report that
2 looks at all of those students together.
3 It's based primarily on the college
4 placement test scores. But students can be
5 exempted and considered ready for college if
6 they have a high enough ACT or SAT score as
7 well.
8 So, in effect, it's really -- uses all
9 three tests to determine whether or not
10 students are ready for college.
11 Some of you probably are familiar with the
12 history of this report. The testing program
13 began in 1983, and the first report was
14 delivered in 1990.
15 And back then, there were about seven
16 different tests being used, and colleges had
17 different cutoff scores. And we've been
18 implementing uniform statewide standards
19 gradually over the last nine years. And
20 this -- this year, we're at about 97 percent.
21 This has been a statutory process. There
22 were still a few community colleges who were
23 allowed to use lower cutoff scores in the
24 summer of 1997. And so about 3 percent of the
25 students in the report were tested under those
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1 lower scores.
2 And next year, if the standards remain the
3 same, we're going to be at 100 percent uniform
4 statewide on that.
5 Next slide, please.
6 In the fall of 1996, we had a hundred and
7 five thousand four -- a hundred and five
8 thousand five hundred students enter twelfth
9 grade.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Back one.
11 MR. JOHNSON: Oh.
12 We had 105,500 students enter
13 twelfth grade. Out of those, we had about
14 93,000 standard diplomas. And those are what
15 we are usually talking about when we're talking
16 about high school graduates.
17 And out of those, about half, or about
18 46,000 entered a public university or
19 community college in the year immediately
20 following.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have any estimation
22 of -- of students that go through college
23 outside of the state?
24 MR. JOHNSON: Right. That's the next
25 slide.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh. Sorry.
2 MR. JOHNSON: So we can move on to that
3 now.
4 This slide shows that we have about half of
5 those -- half of the high school graduates, the
6 17 percent at State universities, and the
7 32 percent at community colleges, who are
8 included in the report. Those are on the
9 right-hand half of this slide.
10 The other half shows that we had about
11 4 percent going to a private -- of our
12 graduates going to a private college in
13 Florida, about 7 percent going out of state,
14 and about 4 percent to trade or technical
15 school.
16 And these are based not on data directly
17 from those institutions, but on the
18 postsecondary plan survey which is where the
19 students tell us they're going at the end of
20 twelfth grade. And that usually tracks pretty
21 closely with where they actually do go.
22 Then we have about 30 percent who go into
23 the work force, go into the military, some of
24 them may be unemployed. And some of them may
25 very well continue their education later, they
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1 just didn't go to college immediately in
2 Florida in -- in the 12 months following
3 graduation.
4 May I have the next slide, please.
5 Out of the approximately half of the
6 graduates who are in the report, and who went
7 to a public university or community college in
8 this state, we had 66.7 percent who were
9 considered ready for college level work in
10 math, 71.4 percent who were ready for college
11 level work in reading, 76.7 percent in writing,
12 and 58.8 percent in all three areas.
13 Another way to look at this is we have
14 about 41.2 percent of students who needed at
15 least one remedial class when they entered
16 college in the state.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Less than
18 60 percent of those students out of our
19 high schools that go on to college are ready
20 for college.
21 MR. JOHNSON: May I have the next slide,
22 please.
23 This slide shows the change from last year,
24 which is a more complicated issue than it may
25 appear for a couple of reasons.
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1 On the one hand, we had a 2.6 percentage
2 point decline of the number of students who
3 were considered ready in all three areas from
4 the year before to the -- to this year's
5 report.
6 But as I mentioned, we've been implementing
7 uniform standards statewide. And in the year
8 before, there were about ten community colleges
9 that were still allowed to use lower cutoff
10 scores. And for this year's report, they
11 raised their cutoff scores.
12 And you can see on the right-hand side of
13 this slide, that of the community colleges --
14 the ten community colleges where the standards
15 went up, you had a significant decline in the
16 number of students who tested ready, as you
17 would expect.
18 But at the State universities and the other
19 18 community colleges, you had slight increases
20 in the -- in the number we -- that were
21 considered ready.
22 So what we're really looking at here is
23 we're raising the bar, and that's why the
24 numbers are going down.
25 It's -- it's also important to note from
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1 this slide the difference between the State
2 universities and the community colleges in
3 terms of their -- their public mission.
4 The State universities have -- are
5 selective, and pretty much anyone who qualifies
6 to get into a State university is also going to
7 be considered ready for college.
8 There's a few percent who -- they're
9 allowed some exceptions there. But for the
10 most part, they're going to be ready for
11 college.
12 Whereas, community colleges are required to
13 accept anyone with a high school diploma. And
14 that's why there's such a difference between
15 those kinds of institutions.
16 May I have the --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Now, I --
18 MR. JOHNSON: -- next slide.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- I would like to
20 just mention that --
21 MR. JOHNSON: Oh.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- what this --
23 what happens to the 60 percent in our community
24 colleges that are sitting here that obviously
25 aren't ready, they're required to go to
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1 remediation in the community college prior to
2 being able to go ahead and get into the other
3 courses.
4 And so although it's a -- not a great thing
5 that shows that our high schools are doing the
6 job, the community colleges have been filling
7 the bill, more or less, on what should have
8 been learned in -- in the K through 12 system.
9 MR. JOHNSON: That's right, Commissioner.
10 The universities, in fact, aren't even
11 allowed to offer remedial courses. If they do
12 have students who need remedial classes, they
13 have to contract with the community colleges to
14 provide those.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: There's been some
16 that wanted to charge back the high schools
17 from whence the students came. And that's been
18 an interesting debate.
19 MR. JOHNSON: I -- I believe FSU lab school
20 has voluntarily agreed to -- to pay that bill.
21 I'm -- I'm not sure about that. But I --
22 I think that's --
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, they
24 probably -- one of the schools don't have
25 any -- that would be a nice guarantee tho--
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1 offer though.
2 MR. JOHNSON: May I have the next slide?
3 This slide should set off some alarm bells
4 for all of us who work with education. There's
5 a huge gap between how well minority students
6 are doing in terms of their readiness for
7 college, and how well nonminority students are
8 doing.
9 Thirty-seven point seven percent of black
10 students were considered ready in all three
11 areas, forty-one point eight percent of
12 Hispanic students, compared to about 68.8
13 percent of white students.
14 This is -- this is -- shows where we need
15 to be focusing our resources, especially in
16 terms of getting students ready for college
17 level work.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: When you say the standards
19 have been raised, we're still talking about
20 standards to graduate from high school that are
21 equal to tenth grade level aptitudes, aren't
22 we?
23 MR. JOHNSON: Well, for this we're talking
24 about something that's a little beyond the
25 standards for graduation from high school.
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1 We're talking about standards for being ready
2 for college level work.
3 And -- and you're right, that it's still
4 not as -- as high as -- as some people would
5 like to see it. Anyone who's taught college
6 can tell you --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This isn't -- this
8 isn't the HSCT test.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Right.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's the one
11 that's given in eleventh grade that some might
12 say is --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Ninth or --
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- eighth or
15 ninth grade --
16 MR. JOHNSON: It's --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- level.
18 MR. JOHNSON: -- it's a -- oh, I'm sorry.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Go -- good.
20 MR. JOHNSON: It's about a 400 SAT score on
21 the --
22 Is this right, Martha? Four hundred on
23 the -- on the math, and four twenty on the
24 verbal?
25 MS. MILLER: Four forty on the math --
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1 MR. JOHNSON: Four forty on the math,
2 and -- and four twenty on the verbal?
3 MS. MILLER: Are you asking on the SAT
4 standards --
5 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, the cutoff point.
6 MS. MILLER: Yes.
7 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
8 MS. MILLER: Four forty.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Eight sixty?
11 MR. JOHNSON: Right. If that gives you an
12 idea of where the -- the readiness standard
13 falls.
14 And the other scores are set at
15 approximately the same level.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Breaks your heart.
17 MR. JOHNSON: May I have the next slide.
18 Thank you.
19 You can also see that there's a gender gap,
20 which isn't as significant as the gap between
21 minority and nonminority students. But it's
22 still important, especially in math, where
23 there's about a 3.6 percentage point difference
24 between how men and women do on these tests.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who's -- men are higher, or
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1 women are higher?
2 MR. JOHNSON: Men are higher.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Really?
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Interesting thing
5 is that this is -- this is interesting on the
6 percentage of readiness. Now, when you get
7 into writing, the women are higher, as you can
8 see.
9 If you look at the University of Florida
10 today, there are more women enrolled in the
11 University of Florida than are men, and that's
12 pretty much becoming prevalent throughout the
13 state in all of our universities.
14 MR. JOHNSON: And it's especially important
15 to look at the math gap, because one of our
16 goals is to get more women involved in the
17 postsecondary level in science and engineering,
18 and those fields where math is especially
19 important. So this is also something we want
20 to work on.
21 May I have the next slide, please?
22 The main use of this report is to tell us
23 how our graduates are doing, and where we need
24 to improve.
25 The district level reports that we send out
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1 are especially important for this, because they
2 allow the districts to go back, look at a
3 student who didn't pass one of these tests, and
4 say, what did this student take in high school,
5 what should this student have taken, and how do
6 we need to change our curriculum in order to
7 align it with what colleges are expecting from
8 our students.
9 As you may know, colleges -- community
10 colleges and school districts are required to
11 have articulation agreements, one part of which
12 has to be a remediation reduction plan. And
13 this is a valuable research tool for that as
14 well in those discussions between the districts
15 and the colleges.
16 May I have the next slide, please.
17 There's some limi-- there are some
18 limitations to the report that we also need to
19 keep in mind. As the Governor pointed out, it
20 doesn't include graduates who go to private
21 college or who go out of state. It doesn't
22 include graduates who don't go to college right
23 away.
24 It also doesn't reflect the fact that some
25 districts send higher proportions of their
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1 students to college than others. And if a
2 district, for example, is sending a higher
3 proportion of its students to college, but
4 having a lower score; and another district is
5 sending a smaller proportion, but having a
6 higher score, that's not necessarily a good
7 thing either.
8 The other problem with the report -- or a
9 limitation of the report is that because we've
10 been using it as an instrument of policy, and
11 raising the bar from year-to-year to have
12 uniform statewide standards, and higher
13 standards, it's also difficult to make
14 comparisons from year-to-year as one of the
15 earlier slides I've showed you indicated.
16 The final problem with the report is that
17 we're still missing a little data. About
18 6 percent of the records are missing or
19 incomplete. And this is a problem that we've
20 been working on, and we expect to have it at
21 100 percent next year.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This is from
23 certain community colleges not reporting?
24 MR. JOHNSON: That's right, Commissioner.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Which ones?
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1 MR. JOHNSON: I can name those that had
2 more than 10 percent of their data missing or
3 incomplete for this year's report.
4 And I have been informed by the Division of
5 Community Colleges that they're working on
6 this, and -- and expect to have it at 100
7 percent, that they -- they have what they think
8 is a solution to the problem.
9 Florida Keys Community College,
10 Tallahassee Community College, Florida
11 Community College of Jacksonville,
12 St. Johns River, Lake-Sumter, Valencia,
13 Daytona Beach, Gulf Coast, and Central Florida
14 all had significant gaps in -- in the numbers
15 we got.
16 May I have the last slide, please.
17 Some other measures to look at when we're
18 looking at how well our districts are doing in
19 graduating students, and how well their
20 graduates are doing that aren't subject to some
21 of those limitations, are SAT and ACT score
22 trends.
23 And one positive sign in Florida is that
24 scores have been going up at the same time as
25 the number of students taking the test has been
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1 going up, which is what's really remarkable
2 because --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: What percentage now of our
4 students take the test, take either --
5 MR. JOHNSON: It's about --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- one of those tests?
7 MR. JOHNSON: It's about 53 percent now.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Fifty-three percent --
9 MR. JOHNSON: Fifty-three percent of our --
10 of our high school seniors are taking the
11 test -- or high school -- I think it's our high
12 school graduates are taking the test, Martha?
13 MS. MILLER: About -- about as many as
14 fifty-five --
15 MR. JOHNSON: Fif-- fifty-four, fifty-five?
16 That compares to about 43 percent
17 nationwide. So even though our -- our mean
18 score as a state is lower than the mean
19 nationwide score, we still have a much higher
20 proportion of our students taking the test,
21 which is -- which is a good thing.
22 And -- and our scores have been increasing
23 at a faster rate than the national average
24 score as well for the last few years.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doesn't that imply though
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1 that half the kids aren't even in this universe
2 we're discussing that are not going to college
3 or community college?
4 MR. JOHNSON: Right. Well, some of them
5 take the ACT test if they're going to a
6 midwestern university or a -- a Alabama
7 university.
8 Some of them take the CPT test if they go
9 into a community college. The community --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
11 MR. JOHNSON: -- colleges don't require the
12 SAT.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: I see. Okay.
14 MR. JOHNSON: But you're right, that we're
15 not -- a lot of students aren't even aspiring
16 to go to college, and that's something we need
17 to work on as well.
18 We can also look at the number of
19 Bright Future Scholarship recipients; the
20 number of college ready diplomas that schools
21 are awarding, as that program gets going; the
22 total number of students continuing their
23 education in any form, whether it's public,
24 private, in-state, or out of state; and the
25 number in average salaries of graduates
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1 successfully entering the work force, since
2 that's also an important component of what our
3 schools are doing.
4 That's all I have for you today.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
6 MR. JOHNSON: If you have any questions,
7 I'm happy to entertain them.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Let me just ask a
9 quick question.
10 I'm not sure this is the right time to ask
11 this.
12 But do we have any -- once the -- they take
13 the -- the remedial course, are they then
14 ready? I mean, if you take one course, and
15 you're now -- now you're up to speed on math?
16 MR. JOHNSON: If they pass the course, then
17 the hope is that they're ready. They -- I
18 don't believe they have to retake the test.
19 But I think the current -- as the law
20 stands, they're allowed to take a remedial
21 course once at the subsidized tuition rate.
22 But if they have to take it again, they have to
23 pay the full cost of that remedial course.
24 There's a bill being --
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: -- considered -- I don't know
2 what the status of it is -- to allow them to
3 take a course up to twice at the subsidized
4 tuition rate.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah.
6 Thank you.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions or
8 comments?
9 TREASURER NELSON: Governor.
10 Tell me something about the implementation
11 of the higher standards by the school
12 districts. They have the opportunity to do it,
13 but they have an opportunity of delaying it.
14 Tell us about that.
15 MR. JOHNSON: Right.
16 Well, it's -- it's the colleges that have
17 had that opportunity since the tests are
18 administered at the college level, not at the
19 district level.
20 But over the years, we went, as I said,
21 from having several different tests, to having
22 just these three tests, and the same cutoff
23 scores. And it's been a -- a gradual process.
24 Every year, we've sort of narrowed down the
25 number of tests; and raised the cutoff scores;
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1 and have allowed, because of the -- the
2 technical problems with implementing new
3 standards, have allowed colleges to have some
4 time to -- to implement the new standards.
5 TREASURER NELSON: So there is no choice
6 with regard to the school district on the
7 implementation of these higher standards.
8 MR. JOHNSON: No. This -- this -- the data
9 for this report is independent of the school
10 districts. It's reported from the
11 postsecondary institutions to us, and then we
12 report those results to the school districts.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Okay. Thank you.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
15 Any other questions?
16 Is there a motion?
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to accept
18 the report.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second?
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I would like to
24 add one other thing that I think you all may
25 find interesting in regards to the supply --
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1 some summary statistics graphically given here
2 on the supply of minority teachers that I'll
3 let y'all have to -- that you may want to
4 peruse.
5 And it basically shows that we have pretty
6 much increased the number of our minority
7 teachers, especially African Americans. But we
8 still have a ways to go in encouraging the
9 entrance into the teaching field.
10 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
11 concluded.)
12 *
13
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25
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Department of Highway
2 Safety and Motor Vehicles.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
4 minutes.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. DICKINSON: Item 2 is a custom software
10 development contract for application of some
11 prototype software for our driver license
12 customer service support system.
13 And we will maintain -- retain the
14 ownership rights to this software, if --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
16 MR. DICKINSON: -- it's so approved.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's
21 approved.
22 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you, Governor.
23 (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
24 Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
25 *
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Marine Fisheries
2 Commission.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on the
4 minutes.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 DR. NELSON: Good morning, Governor,
9 members of the Cabinet.
10 The -- Item B on the agenda are adjustments
11 to the degradable specifications for stone
12 crab, black sea bass, and blue crab traps.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 DR. NELSON: Item D is a adjustment to the
18 spiny lobster recreational trap rules.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 DR. NELSON: Item E on the agenda is a
24 adjustment to the Apalach Bay oyster season.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 DR. NELSON: And I apologize. I skipped
6 over my second --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Did you do C?
8 DR. NELSON: -- page --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. Didn't --
10 DR. NELSON: -- which is C.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. I thought
12 you missed C.
13 Motion on Item C.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded on
18 Item C.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 DR. NELSON: Item F on the agenda deals
21 with the definition of cast net.
22 There are a number -- I believe four
23 individuals here who would like to speak. It's
24 agreed that they would take 3 minutes a piece,
25 sir.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
2 MR. PRINGLE: Good morning, Governor --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
4 MR. PRINGLE: -- honorable Cabinet members.
5 Appreciate your time here.
6 I want to speak on this subject on changing
7 the wording as far as what a cast net is
8 concerned.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you just for the record
10 state who you are?
11 MR. PRINGLE: Oh. I'm sorry.
12 I'm Ray Pringle, President of the Florida
13 Fishermen's Federation.
14 The -- the bottom line in -- in the
15 statutes and the -- with the Marine Fisheries
16 is they have to come up with biological,
17 sociological, and economical impacts on these
18 rules that they make.
19 This rule, as far as I'm understanding,
20 is -- and from what I've heard in -- in their
21 statements are, it's for ease of enforcement.
22 We've gone through a case in the Supreme Court
23 measuring trawls and bag type nets.
24 The cast net, when thrown -- I have one
25 there -- and when you retrieve that cast net,
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1 it actually bags up. It's something that has
2 been measured this way forever.
3 And the Florida Constitution, Article X,
4 Section 16(c)(2) says the mesh area of the net
5 means the total area of the netting, with the
6 meshes open to comprise a maximum square
7 footage.
8 The square footage shall be calculated
9 using standard mathematical formulas, and
10 geometric shapes. Seines and other rectangular
11 nets shall be calculated using maximum length
12 and maximum width of the netting.
13 Trawls and other bag type nets shall be
14 calculated as a cone, using the maximum
15 circumference of the net mouth to derive the
16 radius, and the maximum length from the net
17 mouth to the tail end of the net to derive the
18 slant height. And calculations for other nets
19 or combination nets shall be based on the
20 shapes of the individual components.
21 That means that it's the slant height times
22 the circumference of the net, and divide by 2
23 to be able to get the maximum square footage of
24 the net.
25 We're not asking for 1 square foot more
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1 than what the net limitation requires or -- or
2 demands out of us, and we're not asking for
3 1 square foot less. To enlarge a rule and make
4 it more stringent is just -- it's not a way to
5 go.
6 I -- historical precedent -- as the
7 Supreme Court says, that there has to be a
8 traditionally discern from historical
9 precedent, from present facts, from common
10 sense, and from an examination of the purpose
11 of the provision was intended to accomplish and
12 the evil sought to be prevented.
13 Furthermore, we look to the explanatory
14 materials available to the people as a
15 predicate for their decision as persuasive of
16 their intent.
17 And the intent of this is what I understand
18 and -- and look at it. And as you'll hear some
19 of the other fishermen testify here, right here
20 in this room, with just the four of us
21 fishermen, there's about 150 years of
22 experience here. It's something that hasn't
23 just happened overnight.
24 We're -- we've always recognized it as a
25 cone. That's how it's measured, that's how
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1 they're built. And I've built these nets, and
2 the other gentlemen here in the room have built
3 them also.
4 And the other thing is the Justices ruled
5 in the Millender case, and the Supreme Court
6 says, the mesh area of the net means the total
7 area of netting, with the meshes open, to
8 comprise the maximum square footage.
9 And doing it as a -- as a circle -- as the
10 attorney for the Marine Fisheries says, well,
11 it might be that it could be in the open mesh.
12 Well, we're not asking for a might be or a
13 could be, we're asking for the physical facts
14 of is it in the open mesh, or is it not in the
15 open mesh?
16 That's what brings our people into court,
17 and it's jamming our court systems up in these
18 counties around, not just in north Florida, but
19 in south Florida, too, with these people using
20 these nets. They're using 500 square foot,
21 they're abiding by the law.
22 And to enhance or enlarge this even further
23 on us, I think, would be a -- would be a
24 travesty of justice. And also would be
25 something that would -- as we've already have
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1 in the Supreme Court, a ruling by our Florida
2 Supreme Court, and says that this is how it's
3 been measured, that's how it's been measured in
4 the past, it's historical precedent, present
5 fact, and common sense.
6 And common sense would say, as you look at
7 a cast net, it's a cone, it fishes as a cone,
8 and when you pull it in, it bags up to be able
9 to catch the fish. I could take and throw it
10 out here and show you by pulling it in that it
11 bags out, and that's how it catches the fish.
12 And I would ask for the -- for you to -- to
13 turn this -- this down, because I don't think
14 it's -- it's good rule, and I think it's going
15 to cause us more problems in the courts.
16 Ease of enforcement is not that hard. They
17 already measure these nets in this -- in this
18 particular manner, and I don't see any -- any
19 problem with it.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, Tom.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If it's measured
22 in the way in which this rule speaks, is your
23 complaint that it allows them to be bigger, or
24 smaller, catch more fish, catch less fish?
25 MR. PRINGLE: Well, my complaint is, I --
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1 it's not going to catch any more or any less if
2 it's measured in the open mesh. But to measure
3 a circle in the open mesh is a difficult
4 situation.
5 The -- instead of making it easier, they're
6 going to have to start counting the meshes up
7 -- up the line to -- to the -- to the horn of
8 the net where the net is -- it comes together.
9 And then they're going to have to measure that,
10 and then figure it out, what is the half of
11 that.
12 The bottom line is, if they're measuring it
13 in a half, if they stretch it out and pull it
14 out and say this net is 15 feet long, the
15 circumference -- and you can do the slant
16 height with the circumference, divide by 2, and
17 you get the square footage of a net.
18 That's how the Supreme Court has ruled it.
19 And -- and the -- really, I -- I don't see a
20 problem in that. Why --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Pringle, is this --
22 just to ask the question a different way:
23 Which way -- what's the square footage
24 difference --
25 MR. PRINGLE: The --
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- between the two
2 measurements?
3 MR. PRINGLE: The -- the square footage
4 on -- on their method is going to be basically
5 half, because you can't measure that in an --
6 in an open mesh, as they would say it in their
7 rule, as 12 foot 7 inches.
8 Twelve foot seven inches, if you go into
9 the stretch -- in the stret-- or the -- the bar
10 measurement or divide by 2, you're only looking
11 at six foot three-and-a-half inches.
12 And that's -- that's where the -- the
13 rubber meets the road. It's -- it's all -- all
14 it is is enlarging the -- the restrictions that
15 we already have on us.
16 We have enough, and I don't think we need
17 to go through any more -- historical
18 precedence, it's recognized as a cone, and
19 that's --
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So the mouth is --
21 the circumference of the mouth of the net is
22 the same?
23 MR. PRINGLE: It would be -- it's according
24 to the size of the net. If you make -- put too
25 many meshes -- let me explain it this way.
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1 If you put too many feet around the
2 circumference by the length of the net, the net
3 won't throw. The more net you put in it, the
4 less it works.
5 The less net you put in it, if you put the
6 right amount in there, then the net throws
7 perfectly. If you put more net in there, the
8 daggum thing will not throw.
9 I've tried it all different ways. It
10 starts throwing in a banana shape and wads, and
11 it just -- it's just not going to fish proper.
12 We've already got law, it's clear law. The
13 judges have ruled in -- in Palm Beach County
14 and other counties. They recognize that fact
15 as the Supreme Court has already ruled. And --
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, were you
17 involved in the -- in the hearings that -- that
18 brought this rule forward?
19 MR. PRINGLE: Yes, sir.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And -- and you've
21 brought this argument forward at that time?
22 MR. PRINGLE: The Florida Fishermen's
23 Federation -- I personally wasn't there, but
24 our members were there. I knew about it. We
25 were talking -- I was doing other things. But
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1 the Florida Fishermen Federation was involved
2 in this.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Perhaps we could get the
4 rest of the testimony, and then we'll ask --
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sure.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the Commission to --
7 MR. PRINGLE: Thank you.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Stick around, Mr. Pringle.
9 You may be back for some math --
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A math test.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a math test.
12 MR. Van MUNSTER: Good morning.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
14 MR. Van MUNSTER: My name is
15 Richard Van Munster, and I'm a cast net
16 fisherman from Palm Beach County.
17 And I've made cast nets for 40 years. And
18 what I've -- you know, the first thing I want
19 to say is -- is that the Supreme Court ruled
20 that a trawl is made, and nets are made in a
21 certain way to make them commercially viable.
22 And what the MFC is trying to do is they're
23 thinking in a single dimension, like, if we
24 went and cut a piece of -- that's what a
25 circular net means.
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1 Like if we took and cut a piece of carpet
2 out of this, and put a ring in it, and tried
3 to -- tried to sew a lead line in it. It will
4 not work. Will not work.
5 Because when a -- a cast net is a handheld
6 perpendicular -- it's a gravity operated trawl.
7 Now, a shrimp trawl is pulled through the
8 water to hold it open. Now, that cast net is a
9 cone, and it's -- it's a -- it has a bigger
10 mouth than a -- a trawl. And it's made that
11 way -- and it's made with a bigger mouth than
12 it is slant height. That little cast net
13 that -- you know, that Ray has there, you can
14 spread it out on the ground, and you walk in
15 the middle of it, and you pick it up, and it'll
16 be about that high.
17 Well, it's made so the -- so the -- so the
18 restriction of the water, like air, when that
19 net hits, it -- it hits the water like an
20 umbrella. It doesn't hit flat. There ain't a
21 man on earth can throw one flat.
22 And when the Marine Patrol measures it,
23 they're pulling on it in a way that it doesn't
24 fish. So when you let it go -- I tried to get
25 some videos, but I couldn't do it.
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1 When it hits the water, it hits in a -- in
2 a -- like -- like an umbrella. And if that net
3 hit flat, it wouldn't catch any fish; if it
4 sunk flat, it wouldn't catch any fish. And
5 it's cut to when it hit -- when it hits the
6 water, it closes.
7 And this net -- I want to -- let me read
8 what I've got here. Because I could talk --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: You were doing well for --
10 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- to you for 2 or
11 3 hours on this.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's good.
13 MR. Van MUNSTER: It is a cone. It won't
14 fish unless it's cut out like a cone. It's
15 impossible.
16 And the Marine Fisheries Commission --
17 without the Supreme Court, if we hadn't have
18 gone straight to the Supreme Court, we would
19 have had an absurd law. That's what they said.
20 And they argued this thing.
21 And if we had -- if the fishermen would
22 have just let it lay, this -- and the
23 Supreme Court called it that absurd, not me.
24 So that's them.
25 And what they're trying to do, according to
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1 their news releases, I have some. They're
2 trying to conform to the Constitution.
3 Florida Administrative Code 46-4.002
4 defines a cast net as a cone.
5 When did it change?
6 Why did it change? And who changed it?
7 I mean, can you make a circle into a cone,
8 or a cone into a circle?
9 And Article X, Section 16(c)(2) says the
10 mesh area of the net -- that's any net. They
11 made -- they didn't -- they didn't pick out any
12 single net -- of a net. The Administrative
13 Code says the same thing.
14 It's open mesh. And where the -- to define
15 open mesh with mathematical formulas. The -- a
16 15-foot cast net stretched height is -- if you
17 use a rectangular method -- and the
18 Marine Patrol has a memo on how you measure a
19 rectangular net.
20 With a rectangular net, using the
21 rectangular way, it comes out this and that --
22 and that's raw stock, because they all start
23 with a -- with a -- with a rectangular piece of
24 raw stock.
25 I made a little drawing. I don't know
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1 whether y'all have it or not. But --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's that?
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This one?
4 MR. Van MUNSTER: No. That's Ray's.
5 That's right though. That's correct.
6 Look here. I don't know whether y'all --
7 can y'all see this? I hope I don't complicate
8 things.
9 See this little thing right here? That's a
10 rectangle. That's a -- that's a little cast
11 net.
12 Can you --
13 I know the state of Florida's busy, but
14 this is my livelihood.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. Let's --
16 MR. Van MUNSTER: And I'm the expert.
17 See this -- see those -- those little
18 strings?
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
20 MR. Van MUNSTER: See those little
21 pie-shaped pieces?
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
23 MR. Van MUNSTER: Now, pretend like that's
24 48 feet long.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: We're pretending.
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1 MR. Van MUNSTER: All right. And you get
2 your stretch height this way. It's 15 feet
3 stretched.
4 The Supreme Court says that when you
5 measure netting, it goes on the open mesh. It
6 takes that mesh from like that, to a square.
7 And when you square it up, it goes in half.
8 With a piece of raw rectangular stock
9 48 feet on the top, 48 feet on the bottom, hung
10 in, I can make a 15 foot -- a cast net with a
11 15 foot radius.
12 And if you don't believe me, I've got the
13 stock. When y'all leave, lock me in here, and
14 come back in about 10 hours, and I'll do it for
15 you.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: What does that mean
17 though?
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could we get -- well,
19 let's -- let's get the rest of the testimony,
20 because we have some questions. But --
21 MR. Van MUNSTER: Okay. But all -- all I'm
22 saying is -- is that -- that their -- that
23 their measurement violates the Supreme Court
24 ruling, it violates the Florida
25 Administrative Code, it violates their seven
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1 standards, and it gives us less than 500 square
2 feet.
3 And the only reason they're doing it is for
4 ease of enforcement, and I'm the reason,
5 because they keep losing cases. In -- in south
6 Florida, they ain't won one yet when you --
7 when you put it before a judge like this.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
9 Who's next?
10 MR. GRIX: My name is David Grix, and I
11 thank you for letting me speak before the
12 Cabinet.
13 I'm a cast net fisherman at the present
14 time. I make my sole living from cast netting.
15 And I can tell you, there's several -- many
16 individuals out there that could not possibly
17 come here because they're living day-to-day
18 from cast net fishing.
19 The fish we catch feed minorities. Middle
20 class won't touch the fish that we catch. The
21 fish that we catch are under-- underutilized.
22 And I have a bright future. I took the
23 Title III money for retraining, and I went
24 through college, and I finished my B.S. degree
25 at FAU in three years.
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1 But these other fishermen don't have the
2 ability to retrain, and the -- the -- the
3 opportunity to retrain as I did. So they're
4 dependent -- their lives are dependent on this
5 law. It's -- it's not a funny, it's not a
6 sports fish and game, it's their livelihood.
7 And I'll tell you a story. I was arrested
8 in 1996. I have been a law abiding citizen all
9 my life. I've never done anything wrong.
10 I was arrested in 1996 for throwing a
11 15 foot cast net. And my son actually was, but
12 I was in the boat with him.
13 I went to court seven times, and the
14 Marine Patrol failed to show up seven times in
15 a row. They refused to come to court, as I
16 told the -- the judge that they would. Finally
17 the judge dismissed the case.
18 The day he dismissed the case, I was at
19 Palm Beach Community College, Harry Anstead --
20 I can say this now because I'm not in court,
21 and they won't -- they can't object to me
22 saying it.
23 Harry Anstead of the Supreme Court was
24 there. I went to him, and I said, was I right
25 to apply the Millender method in measuring this
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1 cast net, which measures the height, the
2 circular, the slant height, everything.
3 He said, you're absolutely right.
4 He said, what happened?
5 I said, I was arrested. I said, the
6 officer measured my net, stretched mesh, and it
7 came to 15 foot 4 inches. And I was arrested.
8 He said, you should have never been
9 arrested. We passed the law to protect you
10 fishermen, and that it sounded like some
11 head honcho in Tallahassee is making up his own
12 laws. The Supreme Court intended this law to
13 cover -- with the shrimp nets and the trawls --
14 to cover all nets, not just one net.
15 And if you'll read the Supreme Court
16 ruling, it does cover bag type nets, cone nets,
17 it's used in the marine fisheries, where
18 they -- where they measure a 500 square foot
19 net.
20 I can make two 12-foot cast nets out of a
21 500 square -- over 12-foot cast nets out of
22 500 square foot of mesh. They cannot argue
23 with this.
24 There's nothing they can -- you could lock
25 me in the room with 500 square feet, and I will
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1 come out with two cast nets. What they're
2 doing is they're cutting our cast net in half.
3 The twelve-and-a-half foot cast net is not
4 commercially viable for stained -- sustained
5 period of time. You need at least a 14-foot
6 net to remain commercially viable.
7 We are the poorest of the fishermen. We're
8 the lowest in the food chain, and we feed the
9 minorities.
10 Without the fish that we catch, the
11 minorities do not have the fish that they can
12 afford.
13 And it's industry standard, it's
14 Supreme Court ruled. I don't know how the
15 Marine Fisheries can possibly argue this.
16 After all, we fought for years to reduce
17 the size of gill nets, and they refused to
18 listen to us.
19 Now it comes down, and they want to take
20 away the size of a cast net. That's just
21 incredible. It's -- it's mind-boggling.
22 I have explained this to at least 40 or
23 50 people in college, they've looked at it,
24 every one of them understood it.
25 I do not understand how the
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1 Marine Fisheries doesn't understand how to
2 measure a net.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
4 MR. GRIX: Thank you.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
6 MR. PINE: Good morning.
7 How are you?
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Pretty good.
9 Step right up.
10 MR. PINE: My situation's a bit different.
11 And I'm going to read this, because it's a
12 whole lot easier to read it and get it all in
13 quickly, than it is to try and say it.
14 My name's Walter Pine. I'm a commercial
15 fisherman, and I'm a disabled veteran.
16 Changing the shape and design of the
17 cast nets within present limits allows me to
18 continue using them, allows me to make them
19 lighter and more efficient.
20 They catch -- I catch less fish than the
21 average cast netter, but by altering the shape,
22 I can't continue to do it.
23 All right. The Marine Fisheries Commission
24 has stated on numerous occasions that it does
25 not have to comply with the American with
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1 Disabilities Act when creating laws or rules.
2 Marine Fisheries Commission has refused to
3 grant or provide the disabled or the elderly
4 with any accommodations to continue making a
5 living as commercial fishermen.
6 As a result of the MFC's refusal to comply
7 with the ADA, there is no leeway. You change
8 this, there is no leeway. The change in
9 definition will deny me the use of cast nets to
10 make a living as a commercial fisherman with
11 disabilities.
12 A circle by geometric definition is in one
13 plane, therefore, flat. There's no other
14 definition for it.
15 Very few, if any, cast nets are circular.
16 Truth is, I've never seen a truly circular
17 cast net. I own for my personal use, 22
18 separate cast nets. They were made in
19 Tennessee, Melbourne, Taiwan, China, Port
20 St. John, Tampa, and some I've made myself.
21 Over the years, I've owned many cast nets.
22 None were truly circular. Some were mushroom
23 shaped, cone shaped, spherical, and tube
24 shaped, to name a few.
25 Some shapes result from specific
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1 manufacturing techniques or processes. Other
2 shapes have specific applications. Computation
3 of the various shapes as a circle is completely
4 inadequate. Only a cone will suffice.
5 The present definition of a cone most
6 closely represents the various shapes of
7 cast net.
8 The Constitution states that trawls and
9 bag net type nets shall be calculated as a cone
10 using the maximum circumference of the net
11 mouth to derive the radius, and the maximum
12 height -- maximum length from the net mouth to
13 the tail to derive a slant height.
14 The Supreme Court, in decision 85880, ruled
15 that a proper formula for a trawl was just
16 that. And they give us the Millender method
17 for measuring raw net.
18 All right. They also held that its
19 commercial viability of a net is reasonably
20 considered when making rules.
21 A flat net is not commercially viable. The
22 Supreme Court said that if you're going to do
23 this, you have to consider the -- the
24 commercial viability of the net.
25 A flat net is not viable for a normal
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1 fisherman, much less me.
2 A cast net is a bag type net. Even the
3 terminology of use, as has been mentioned,
4 tells you it's a bag net. When you throw it,
5 to pull it in, you bag the net.
6 Trawls and cast nets are nearly identical.
7 They operate in the water basically the same
8 way.
9 Richard Van Muster has very accurately
10 called the cast nets a hand thrown gravity
11 operated trawl. Whether a net is drawn through
12 the water horizontally or vertically; by hand,
13 gravity, or by power should not change the
14 computation of the mesh area of that net.
15 How you pull that net doesn't matter. It's
16 still that shape.
17 Changing the definition of cast net to
18 any -- would make any shape other than circular
19 illegal. All the nets I have would be illegal.
20 Every net I've bought would be illegal.
21 A flat cast net, again, is not commercially
22 viable. It would -- changing to the circle
23 would change the computation from the
24 constitutionally mandated cone to a circle.
25 This change in definition will not enhance
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1 enforcement.
2 I don't know who's told you that. But if I
3 can measure the circumference of a circle, I
4 can measure the circumference of a cone.
5 Somehow there doesn't seem to be any
6 difference there to me. Some people don't --
7 can't get that through. But if I can measure
8 the end of a -- a circle on the end of a cone,
9 I can measure a circle.
10 No difference. So doesn't change
11 enforcement.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: I thought you said that
13 your -- your nets don't have -- aren't
14 circular.
15 MR. PINE: Well, when you pull them up --
16 the way -- the way you hang a net -- all right.
17 Now you're getting into the construction of a
18 net.
19 A circular net is flat. My nets are not
20 flat.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: But at the mouth of the net
22 at some point, they're circular, aren't they?
23 MR. PINE: Correct. But if you --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
25 MR. PINE: -- if you deal with the laws,
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1 and with what we're dealing with here is
2 talking about enforcement, a circle is in one
3 plane. That means all of my nets are illegal,
4 because they're not in one plane.
5 Okay. Now, I've talked to lots of
6 fishermen, I've discussed it -- now, many of
7 the fishermen are willing to accept what is
8 called an 18 foot horn to lead line stretch
9 measurement.
10 Now, this means you grab the net by one
11 end, pull on it till it's like a rope, and you
12 measure it.
13 Now, that would enhance enforcement,
14 because the officer could measure on a boat, on
15 a dock, on the yard, anywhere. And it is well
16 within the constitutionally mandated rules,
17 Supreme Court rulings with all the laws. That
18 does enhance enforcement.
19 I ask you not to sign the definition into
20 law.
21 Changing the word cone to circle has a
22 disparate impact on the disabled and is,
23 therefore, discriminatory against the disabled.
24 Where I can catch a few fish, and are enough to
25 make it worthwhile going, I'd be able to catch
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1 none.
2 All right? If you feel the necessity to
3 make the law in -- more enforced law, I'd ask
4 you to author your own rule, which the horn to
5 lead line stretch measurement of 18 feet. This
6 does make it more enforceable. It's easier to
7 do.
8 With the present attitude of the Marine
9 Fisheries Commission, I have no leeway. I
10 can't go back to them, ask for an
11 accommodation. They won't give it.
12 I thank you for your time.
13 If you have any questions, I'll be more
14 than happy to answer it.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just on -- as it relates to
16 the disability question, aren't there other
17 means by which the ADA compliance could be --
18 you could be accommodated? Are there
19 motorized --
20 MR. PINE: I'm going through the ADA
21 Working Group, which I've appeared before
22 already.
23 And basically what they're doing at this
24 point is bantering things back and forth
25 between the MFC and themselves.
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1 I've also spoken to General Counsel for the
2 Veterans' Administration, Ron Frankel. And
3 when he called and spoke to the
4 Marine Fisheries Commission to discuss it, he
5 called me back and gave me a list of lawyers,
6 and said, sue them.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I'm not asking
8 about --
9 MR. PINE: Well, what I'm telling you is --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we have too --
11 MR. PINE: -- you're asking me --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- many lawsuits --
13 MR. PINE: -- if I can get accommodations.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. Can you get --
15 MR. PINE: Not presently --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- an -- is -- beside the
17 law.
18 I'm just saying: Are there -- is there
19 a -- is there a mechanized means of doing this,
20 is there a means that would accommodate your
21 disability?
22 MR. PINE: You have to -- under the law,
23 they have to be operated manually. Okay. I
24 can't use a mechanized means.
25 Under many discussions with the Marine
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1 Fisheries Commission, members, both staff and
2 Commission members --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
4 MR. PINE: -- that will not be accommodated
5 any other way.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
7 MR. PINE: I have to comply with what's
8 presently available.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You know, I -- I
11 hear you saying that a -- a cast net works like
12 a -- like a trawl net.
13 MR. PINE: That's correct.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And I -- I don't
15 see it that way. I mean, a cast net goes out,
16 it does come down by gravity --
17 MR. PINE: Uh-hum.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- but when you
19 pull it, you pull the -- the -- back up through
20 the center, so it actually scoops from the
21 middle and -- and pulls -- the fish are in
22 the -- are sort of scooped around the -- around
23 the outside.
24 MR. PINE: That's true. But the problem --
25 what you're missing here is how it actually
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1 captures the fish.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, it
3 captures --
4 MR. PINE: The fish aren't caught --
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- them when it
6 drops down on them.
7 MR. PINE: Well, now -- correct. That's
8 where it's a trawl. When it hits the bottom,
9 it's already captured the fish.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
11 MR. PINE: So in capturing the fish, it's
12 acting exactly like a trawl, because it
13 captures them as it moves through the water
14 column coming down. When it hits the bottom,
15 the fish are already in the net. What you're
16 doing is harvesting -- or you're pulling the
17 net up.
18 Now, in the case of a trawl, what they do
19 is they close it sideways, or they pull it
20 together.
21 Now, you could do the same with a cast net.
22 I could take the cast net, turn it inside out,
23 put the brails on the outside, and pull it
24 exactly like a trawl, and it'll do the same
25 thing.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You -- you could?
2 MR. PINE: Yes.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It probably -- but
4 it's --
5 MR. PINE: I've actually --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- fishing --
7 MR. PINE: -- I've done it accidentally on
8 one occasion.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And now I hope
13 Dr. Nelson's going to straighten us out on this
14 thing.
15 DR. NELSON: Well, let's go back a little
16 bit.
17 Through -- the Commission I think first
18 defined a cast net in 1989. That was just
19 merely an exercise to define certain types of
20 gear, and say whether they can be used.
21 At that time, there were no criteria, other
22 than I believe Broward County, where there was
23 an old statute that limited them to 12 feet.
24 There were no criteria for what size a cast net
25 had to be. So there was no -- no reason to --
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1 to define or give a definition of size.
2 In 1995, after the constitutional amendment
3 passed, we took that rule, and amended it to
4 allow for a radius of 12 feet 7 inches, based
5 on the cast net being a circle, not a perfect
6 circle. There is extra in it. In fact, a
7 little bit extra mesh given our measurement.
8 But at that time, that was the -- 12 feet 7
9 was the interpretation of the Constitution that
10 was offered to us by the Organized Fishermen of
11 Florida. There was no disagreement about what
12 a cast net was, or how it worked, and that went
13 forward.
14 The -- the references to the Supreme Court
15 refer to a decision which allowed for a very
16 complicated procedure that finally told us all
17 how we'd measure a shrimp trawl. It does not
18 apply to cast nets or gill nets or any other
19 net.
20 Mr. Grix, who spoke with you, in fact,
21 petitioned the Supreme Court asking them to
22 apply that definition to a cast net, and that
23 petition was not accepted by the Supreme Court.
24 This rule -- there has been now since that
25 Supreme Court decision, a new attempt to
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1 interpret -- reinterpret what the cast net is.
2 Mr. Pringle, Mr. Grix, Mr. Pine have got an
3 interpretation of how it should be measured.
4 That is simply -- hasn't been agreed on by the
5 Commission, hasn't been agreed on by anyone
6 that we have talked to who is familiar with
7 cast nets. They are more or less a circle.
8 If you take a cast net -- and,
9 Mr. Gallagher, as you mentioned, if you throw
10 it in 2 -- 2 or 3 inches of water, a bunch of
11 fish in saltwater, it's going to be about --
12 exactly a circle. Now, if you throw it in
13 deeper water, the deeper it falls, it changes
14 shape.
15 The measurement that we have proposed ha--
16 and, in fact, substantively, there is nothing
17 in this rule that changes anything, other than
18 the definition -- and Mr. Van Munster was
19 correct, the Marine Patrol did ask us to
20 include the term circular because of the
21 confusion being created by some of these
22 arguments.
23 The radius is still 12 feet 7 inches. If
24 this rule is rejected, the radius will still be
25 12 feet 7 inches. You lay down the net in a
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1 circular fashion, you go from the inside to the
2 lead line, and it has to be 12 feet 7 inches.
3 We are not attempting to overly limit the
4 amount of net. Again, when we went back
5 immediately after the Constitution, there was
6 no disagreement anywhere that this was the
7 appropriate way to measure a cast net.
8 And I'll be glad to answer any questions.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I just want you to
10 know, it may be circular when some people throw
11 it, but it isn't when I do it.
12 DR. NELSON: Nor -- nor when I throw it,
13 Commissioner Gallagher.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why are we doing this?
15 What's the pressing need? What -- are we
16 concerned about over--
17 DR. NELSON: I -- well, when the --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: --harvesting the --
19 DR. NELSON: -- Commission --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- resource --
21 DR. NELSON: -- proposed this --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- are we -- what's the --
23 DR. NELSON: When the Commission accepted
24 the Marine Patrol's request, and we proposed
25 this as a technical correction to the rule, we
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1 didn't -- we noticed it as a final public
2 hearing with request -- we didn't think anybody
3 would even request it. To us, it's a very
4 minor issue.
5 But -- and it seems to have been blown
6 quite out of proportion in some circles.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What -- what does
8 this -- what does this change? Does this just
9 make it easier for the Marine Patrol to make a
10 measurement out in the water?
11 DR. NELSON: We did not within the rule
12 tell them how to make -- have to make the
13 measurement.
14 This defines it as a circle, which means
15 the Marine Patrol lays the net out in its fully
16 opened mesh condition, which is pretty much a
17 circle, and goes from the very inside, and
18 measures the radius to the outside.
19 So that is the 12 feet 7 inches. It
20 clarifies that, yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And you don't --
22 and nobody cares how much net's behind that.
23 DR. NELSON: We think -- and everybody
24 agreed back in 1995, that this was the simplest
25 way to approximate 500 square feet within a
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1 cast net.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that the answ-- are you
3 answering his question? I don't even --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: In other words,
5 the real limit is 500 square feet?
6 DR. NELSON: That is the constitutional
7 limit.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. And so what
9 you're saying is that if you measure it the way
10 you're measuring it, nobody's going to be able
11 to cast a net that would have more than
12 500 feet behind it?
13 DR. NELSON: I suspect that the way the net
14 design, there might be some that have some
15 more. Because as -- as the gentleman argued,
16 if you stretch it out flat, it is a circle
17 around the perimeter, but there's still a
18 little net kind of pooching up in the middle.
19 We're simply ignoring that.
20 I mean, there's -- how do -- we're trying
21 to make it simple. So as a matter of hard,
22 cold fact, yes. Probably most cast nets, given
23 our measurement, have a little bit more than
24 500 square feet within them.
25 But it's close enough for the real world is
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1 what I --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: So it is enforcing
3 whatever's excess.
4 DR. NELSON: No. The -- enforcement is
5 simply the measurement --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, then I --
7 DR. NELSON: -- 12 feet 7 inches.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- then what's
9 hard for me to understand is, what's the
10 complaint? The way -- it's easier to measure
11 this way?
12 DR. NELSON: I -- I'm grappling with that
13 myself, Commissioner Gallagher.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, let me ask
15 that a different way.
16 What would be the downside if we went the
17 other direction and measure it the way the
18 fishermen want to do it?
19 DR. NELSON: Well, it would dis-- I mean,
20 as -- as a technical matter, I think it would
21 allow a net which is much greater than
22 500 square feet, it would be unconstitutional.
23 And every way that we have looked at it,
24 and everyone we have consulted with, with the
25 exception of the gentlemen here today, agreed
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1 with us, that that's how you measure 500 square
2 feet.
3 I expect if we proposed a much larger net,
4 there would be folks here, or folks going to
5 court arguing that it was over 500 square feet.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Harris.
7 SECRETARY HARRIS: Okay. I have this
8 question.
9 I'm really trying to figure it out by
10 making my own little diagram.
11 If this is 500 square feet -- this is a
12 circle -- that cone could be any height, and
13 it's going to be a lot more than 500 square
14 feet. In fact, if you reverse the formula of
15 the cone, which is base times height, divided
16 by 2, you're going to be doubling it, and then
17 you have to cut it in half again.
18 So what -- in essence, if this is
19 500 square feet, then you have a cone, and they
20 throw it out, then you're going to end up --
21 excuse me -- I have this little cone here you
22 see --
23 Say you have this little cone, and then
24 you -- and then it drops and you fish, but
25 there's still 500 square feet.
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1 I guess from my -- from our standpoint,
2 this could be any height, as you're saying,
3 you know, it could be -- it could be a tall
4 cone, it could be a small cone.
5 But when it flattens out, it's a circle.
6 I think what the fishermen are saying is, if
7 you wanted them by definition to a circle, all
8 of a sudden, your cone is going to be eminently
9 smaller. And they can't --
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But they're not
11 saying that. What they're saying is he
12 doesn't --
13 SECRETARY HARRIS: They're all shaking --
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- care how
15 long --
16 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- their heads yes.
17 MR. PRINGLE: Yes.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They don't care
19 how --
20 DR. NELSON: Madam --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- long the cone
22 is.
23 DR. NELSON: Madam Secretary, in response
24 to that, yes. And I had heard that. I have
25 not heard that particular cant of this argument
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1 offered.
2 But, no, nothing by changing this rule is
3 going to make all the nets that they have that
4 have been considered 500 square feet anymore.
5 They are 500 square feet.
6 All we want to do is measure the radius,
7 get the circular measurement. The extra stuff,
8 we're not trying --
9 SECRETARY HARRIS: Well, and I think the
10 second issue that they're saying -- there are
11 two issues here are the difference, because --
12 I mean, they're all shaking their head yes when
13 I said this would be the little net.
14 The other issue is that they're saying that
15 if you define it as circular, no one can cast a
16 net this way and then pull it up. It doesn't
17 work. You have to have that bit of a cone
18 shape.
19 So --
20 MR. PRINGLE: Yes, ma'am.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But what -- what
22 he's saying is, that they're not -- they don't
23 care how far the -- the thing is. They're not
24 measuring that, they're not enforcing that.
25 They're letting them have as much as they want
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1 up here.
2 What they're saying is, they're measuring
3 the circle only.
4 SECRETARY HARRIS: But they say that's not
5 the case. I mean, maybe we can just get it
6 clarified.
7 I think the little visual sort of helped,
8 because what I'm saying is what they're saying,
9 and I don't understand what's getting lost in
10 the trans-- translation.
11 If they're not going to count the part up
12 here, if they're only going to count 5-- if
13 they're only going to count the circumference,
14 what's here has 500 feet.
15 DR. NELSON: That is exactly what --
16 SECRETARY HARRIS: As 12 -- no, as
17 twelve point -- 12 feet 7.
18 DR. NELSON: Twelve feet seven inches to
19 the radius, which by our square, gives you --
20 SECRETARY HARRIS: But the problem is, if
21 by definition you say it's a circle, and you
22 don't care what the cone is, that if -- if it
23 is a circle -- to the fishermen, if it is a
24 circle, 12 feet 7, and they don't care what --
25 how tall the cone is --
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What's the
2 complaint?
3 MR. Van MUNSTER: If -- as a cone --
4 excuse me.
5 A cone -- as the circumference of the net
6 mouth expands --
7 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes. The cone --
8 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- the cone --
9 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- gets smaller.
10 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- down.
11 MR. PRINGLE: Exactly.
12 MR. Van MUNSTER: And that's what -- that
13 net -- if you measure it -- if you take all
14 eight pieces -- we make them in eight pieces --
15 if you take all eight pieces, all little pie
16 shaped pieces, bring the ends together, you for
17 sure have got a cone.
18 If you add them all up, it comes out to
19 less than 500 square feet. If you -- if you do
20 it rectangularly -- according to the
21 Marine Patrol measurement, their memo -- I can
22 show it to you -- and work it out, that little
23 square that I showed you, that's under
24 500 square feet, but it's fifteen -- that net,
25 no matter how you do it, is a cone.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well --
2 MR. Van MUNSTER: And -- and a 15 foot cast
3 net has got about 90 feet around the bottom of
4 it. It's seven-and-a-half feet deep this way.
5 And that's --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But --
7 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- the end of it.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But --
9 MR. Van MUNSTER: It's mesh area.
10 That's --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: You have --
12 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- the --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Gallagher.
14 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- on a square.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But the issue is,
16 they're saying --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't you come up --
18 just sit --
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: If you guys --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Want to be --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- want to --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a little easier, just be
23 here --
24 One.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What I'm hearing
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1 them say is that this is for measurement
2 purposes. They're measuring the circumference,
3 and they don't care how much mesh you have in
4 the cone. They're not -- you're not going to
5 get penalized.
6 More or less, it's up to you. They're just
7 measuring the circle and taking it for granted
8 that if the circle's 12 foot 7, the mesh is
9 500 feet. If it's more than that, great; or if
10 it's less than that, that's it.
11 But they're just measuring the circle in
12 order to be able to enforce it.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just --
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: What's wrong with
15 that?
16 MR. Van MUNSTER: Mr. Gallagher, isn't
17 there a right way and --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
19 MR. Van MUNSTER: -- a wrong way --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: If -- if we could just --
21 whoever wants to represent y'all's point of
22 view could just be prepared --
23 MR. Van MUNSTER: There's --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to speak on the -- at
25 the podium. And everybody else, if they could
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1 just sit down so that we can get through this.
2 MR. PINE: There's --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you prepared to answer
4 Commissioner Gallagher's --
5 MR. PINE: Yes, I am.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- question?
7 MR. PINE: Yes, I am.
8 It actually takes two points. One is is
9 enforcement. When this goes before a judge, he
10 looks at the four corners of that paper, and
11 circle is flat. Doesn't matter what they tell
12 you now. A circle is flat before the judge.
13 The second thing is, is you have to realize
14 that when you're building a net, we were
15 granted a certain amount of mesh to build a
16 net. That open mesh measurement provides
17 enough material for us to build that in, that
18 cone.
19 We believe since that is the law, that that
20 should also be the letter of the law. We're
21 not asking for anything that we're not entitled
22 to.
23 What we're saying is, put what we're
24 allowed in the law. Nothing else. And if you
25 change it to a circle, and it goes before a
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1 judge, I'm sure many of you know judges, ask
2 him. A circle is a plain object, it is flat.
3 SECRETARY HARRIS: Dimensional.
4 MR. PINE: It is not conical, it does not
5 have additional bagging in the middle.
6 So regardless of what they say, doesn't
7 matter. When it goes before the judge, he's
8 going to look at the four corners of the law.
9 That's what you write.
10 SECRETARY HARRIS: It's a two dimension
11 versus three dimension?
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well --
13 MR. PINE: Absolutely.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- listen, it's
15 real-- it's starting to get real clear to me
16 that the issue is that you want the measurement
17 to be as complicated as possible so the law
18 can't be enforced. They're trying to make it
19 as simple as possible so it can be enforced.
20 And so what I would urge that I think this
21 Com-- we should sit here as the Marine
22 Fisheries Commission Oversight in approving
23 these rules is that we would see to it that if,
24 in fact, their method of doing it doesn't make
25 it in court, then, in fact, we'd come back here
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1 and make it real complicated.
2 But the --
3 MR. PINE: Is it more --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- short of it
5 ought --
6 MR. PINE: -- complicated to measure --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- to be less.
8 MR. PINE: -- a circle?
9 No matter how you measure a circle, it's
10 the same way. Whether you measure it on the
11 end of a cone, or you measure it flat, doesn't
12 matter.
13 So if they're claiming that you can measure
14 it as a flat thing, you can measure it as a
15 cone. The only difference is, between
16 measuring a cone and a circle is that when
17 you're in the boat or wherever you are, you
18 take the net, you pull it, and measure it like
19 a rope. That's the additional measurement.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
21 But they've got it set so they don't have
22 to do two measurements, and they don't care how
23 much you have --
24 MR. PINE: All right. Then why --
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- in length of
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1 cone.
2 MR. PINE: -- don't we do it --
3 Then you're saying that that limits our
4 netting. Why don't we do just simple stretch
5 measurement.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But it doesn't --
7 MR. PINE: Eighteen feet.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doctor, could you come back
9 up a sec?
10 You're going to need to get -- you've got a
11 dog in this fight. I'd like to get more of
12 your input on this.
13 I'd also -- I'd like to ask you: There are
14 other organized fishing groups. What's their
15 position on this? Are they supportive of
16 this --
17 DR. NELSON: They --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- rule change?
19 DR. NELSON: -- they have supported this
20 rule initially, they supported this change,
21 they agree with the definition of circle, they
22 agree with --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Which -- which organized
24 fishing groups --
25 DR. NELSON: Organized Fishermen of Fl--
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1 Florida --
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Are they cast net
3 fishermen?
4 DR. NELSON: They're cast net fishermen,
5 gill net fishermen, all sorts of fishermen
6 within that group. It's the largest commercial
7 fishing group in the -- probably the oldest in
8 the state.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: They're supportive of this,
10 or --
11 DR. NELSON: They're supp--
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- they're not --
13 DR. NELSON: -- they're absolutely
14 supportive of this rule.
15 Their measurement is the 12 foot 7. That
16 was their original interpretation of the
17 Constitution. And they agreed to this change,
18 they agreed that -- in the open circular
19 position is when you have the maximum presented
20 mesh area to the water.
21 They fully concur with this rule.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: And based on your
23 estimation of the -- these gentlemen here --
24 I'm not sure all of them said it, but many of
25 them said they -- they said that they were
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1 going to -- their -- their nets would be
2 illegal under this interpretation.
3 Explain why not.
4 DR. NELSON: As -- as long as their nets
5 are no more than 12 feet 7 inches when laid out
6 in the open position, which I assume they are,
7 because that has been the law now for the last
8 four years, they will be legal.
9 There is no argument -- the judge is not
10 going to look at circles. The judge is going
11 to look at the diameter of the radius
12 measurement.
13 That's the only measurable thing that's in
14 this circle is 12 feet 7 inches. That's --
15 that's where the measurement is.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll move Item F.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
20 second.
21 Any other comm-- any other questions?
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think this
23 gentleman right here just wanted to speak --
24 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yeah.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. Please. I'm sorry.
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1 MR. GRIX: I think it would be hard for the
2 Marine Fisheries to begin with to explain how
3 you end up with 1,000 square feet of raw stock
4 in a shrimp trawl, and 500 square feet in a
5 cast net when the same law has to apply to all
6 nets. It's got to be superfluous.
7 The -- when you stretch out a cast net, you
8 have a stretch mesh measurement. By law, it
9 says you have to go by the bar, which is the
10 first bar to the adjacent bar. That makes that
11 stretch measurement exactly half.
12 There's no way you can take something -- a
13 13 foot 4 net -- cast net will equal his
14 12 foot 7 measurement stretched out in a
15 radius.
16 What you're doing is saying that your
17 12 foot 7 radius is half of a 13 foot 4 stretch
18 mesh cast net.
19 You're taking 250 yards -- or 250 feet of
20 mesh area, as the Supreme Court defined it, and
21 industry standards state, away from the
22 fishermen. There is no reason to regulate cast
23 nets like this.
24 Like he said, an 18 foot cast net is
25 500 square feet of mesh area. Harry Anstead
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1 told me himself -- and if he didn't, I'm
2 willing to go to jail right now --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we don't want you to
4 do that.
5 MR. GRIX: They're taking away our
6 livelihood. There's no reason to regulate it.
7 We catch fish for the minorities. We're just
8 barely making it.
9 Thank you.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, could I
11 ask --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- the gentleman a
14 quick question?
15 I heard you make a statement about a
16 1,000 square foot shrimp trawl?
17 MR. GRIX: Yes. Raw stock. It comes to
18 996 feet. The Supreme -- or 9-- was it --
19 We have a raw stock measurement.
20 The -- you could take the same stock and
21 make two cast nets out of it that are over
22 12 foot.
23 In other words, they're taking a cast net
24 of --
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Are you telling me
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1 shrimp trawls are -- are 1,000 square feet, not
2 500?
3 MR. GRIX: No. Stretch -- stretch mesh.
4 That's why when you stretch out that shrimp
5 trawl and do the calculations, you would --
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I'm sorry. I
7 have a hard time understanding stretching or
8 not stretching 1,000 square feet is -- is
9 1,000 square feet, period.
10 MR. GRIX: Well, when you stretch it -- a
11 13 -- let's say you have a 12 foot --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Square.
13 MR. GRIX: -- a 12 foot net -- 12 foot 7
14 net, when you stretch it out, it's
15 12 foot 7 inches long.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Uh-hum.
17 MR. GRIX: When you go --
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right.
19 Listen --
20 MR. GRIX: -- from --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I -- I understand
22 mathematics. And I understand when someone
23 says 1,000 square feet in a shrimp trawl --
24 MR. GRIX: That's stretch mesh. That's
25 stretch mesh.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Uh-hum.
2 MR. GRIX: It's 29 foot 4 inches when you
3 stretch that trawl out. But the --
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand. And
5 I --
6 MR. GRIX: -- four --
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- how you arrived
8 at --
9 MR. GRIX: That's how the --
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- 14 feet, then you
11 could divide it --
12 MR. GRIX: -- Supreme Court arrived at it.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- by 2.
14 But I will argue that 500 and -- and
15 1,000 are not the same, regardless of how you
16 stretch them.
17 MR. GRIX: Stretch mesh and open mesh is
18 two completely different things.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand that.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Nelson --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I understand it.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
24 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
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1 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question for
2 him.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
4 SECRETARY HARRIS: If -- wait. If you
5 could wait --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just --
7 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- just one moment.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry.
9 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question.
10 If -- if really all we're trying to do here
11 is make it easier to measure, then we're not
12 trying to take away square footage, is that
13 correct, Doctor?
14 MR. GRIX: You absolutely are. When you --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well --
16 MR. GRIX: -- don't -- the legal limit, as
17 set by the Supreme Court -- Harry Anstead told
18 me that this is the way to do it -- would be
19 the Millender method. He said that is the way
20 to measure the net.
21 And there's no reason that any head honcho
22 in Tallahassee should be making up his own
23 laws. I can make two nets out of the shrimp
24 trawl --
25 SECRETARY HARRIS: Okay. I have a ques--
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1 I guess my point is this: If -- if by
2 definition all the -- the MFC is trying to do
3 is make a easier measure --
4 MR. GRIX: It should be --
5 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- then we should have
6 an assurance that it's not at the same time
7 trying to limit what was already given in law,
8 or to make a less measurement.
9 MR. GRIX: They absolutely are, because it
10 takes away half of our netting. An 18 foot
11 stretched mesh net would be agreeable to
12 everybody because nobody throws a net that big.
13 Cast nets should not be regulated, they do
14 not deplete the natural resource. There is no
15 reason to regulate the cast net, other than
16 ease of enforcement. They're making the cast
17 net commercially nonviable.
18 The Supreme Court measurements give us an
19 18 foot stretch -- about 18 foot 4 stretch mesh
20 net. If you were to take the lead line and
21 stretch it out, it would be about 18 foot
22 4 inches.
23 And there's just no -- I don't see any
24 possible way to argue it when I've been through
25 at least 40 people in college, and every one of
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1 them --
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well --
3 MR. GRIX: -- understands it.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I -- I still have
5 a great concern how you can make two 500 square
6 foot nets out of a -- one shrimp trawl, and
7 not --
8 MR. GRIX: Five hundred square --
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- call it
10 1,000 square feet. You have raised a very
11 serious issue, in my mind --
12 MR. GRIX: I --
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- as to whether or
14 not our shrimp trawls are meeting the
15 constitutional requirement.
16 MR. GRIX: They do --
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So you might want to
18 back off of that one for a while.
19 MR. GRIX: Let me show you a drawing I have
20 made -- I'll show you a drawing I've made,
21 which'll show you how I get two nets out of the
22 500 square feet of mesh area.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doctor --
24 MR. PRINGLE: General Milligan, I can
25 answer your question.
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1 I was involved in that case. We took
2 500 square feet of raw stock, and built that
3 shrimp trawl. It was not 1,000 square feet.
4 It was 500 square feet of raw stock, and built
5 the shrimp trawl out of the 500 square feet.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I -- and I
7 appreciate that --
8 MR. PRINGLE: Yes.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and we've talked
10 about it before --
11 MR. PRINGLE: Yes, sir.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- but I just heard
13 a statement he can make two 500 square foot --
14 MR. PRINGLE: Yeah.
15 Well --
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- cast nets out of
17 a shrimp trawl. And I've got to question
18 whether or not the shrimp trawl is legal.
19 MR. PRINGLE: Yes, sir. But that's --
20 that's what we did. We physically --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Dr. Nelson, can I ask again
22 one more time.
23 MR. PRINGLE: Sure.
24 DR. NELSON: Yes, sir.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please explain to me what
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1 the need for this rule change is. What -- is
2 there -- is there a problem?
3 Are these commercial fishermen violating
4 the law?
5 Are we overfishing the resource?
6 What --
7 DR. NELSON: I --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- what you call technical
9 either is totally misinterpreted by this group,
10 or they don't consider it technical. What --
11 DR. NELSON: Governor, we have to regulate
12 cast nets, because of the Constitution.
13 That's -- that's where that comes from. And
14 so --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: We've been doing it,
16 haven't we?
17 DR. NELSON: We have been doing it.
18 I think the main reason for this change is
19 because you've -- I think you've experienced it
20 today. This -- this argument that is trying to
21 take a Supreme Court decision, and use some
22 fairly stretchy logic to reargue that it has to
23 be applied to this other net is -- is being
24 replayed.
25 That is -- I think is the real reason for
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1 this request, because we are trying to make it
2 very simple again.
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: This -- if I may.
4 This rule is to -- to clarify and make it
5 easy for the Marine Patrol to make a decision
6 on whether the net's legal or illegal. And
7 without this, we end up with all kinds of -- of
8 calculations that are made basically for trawl
9 nets, as opposed to -- to this.
10 And they're willing to allow the net to
11 be -- if, in fact, it's a few feet over 500,
12 then I -- they don't care. They're just
13 saying, we're measuring by a circle to make it
14 easy to enforce the law that the Constitution
15 set.
16 DR. NELSON: The --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And I think these
18 fishermen are trying to make it complicated.
19 DR. NELSON: The problem, Governor --
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I don't blame them
21 for trying to do it.
22 DR. NELSON: -- there have been instances
23 where people are using cast nets that are
24 well -- well in excess of 500 square feet.
25 We feel that's illegal, it's in violation
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1 of our regulations, which are -- institute the
2 constitutional provisions.
3 And these arguments have been used, in some
4 instances to -- to confuse the issue, and there
5 have been cases where judges have -- have
6 dismissed them, largely because of the
7 confusion.
8 SECRETARY HARRIS: Doctor, two questions.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Be confused.
10 SECRETARY HARRIS: What is the difference
11 between measuring a circle and measuring the --
12 the circular base of the cone? What is more
13 difficult? I just -- I don't understand that.
14 DR. NELSON: Well, it's --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good question.
16 DR. NELSON: -- it's -- the simplest
17 measurement, from our experience, has been if
18 you take your circle and you go from the -- the
19 point at the very middle of the circle out in
20 any direction and that's the radius.
21 And if you make that one measure-- radius
22 measurement, then you can know what 500 square
23 feet is.
24 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second question --
25 DR. NELSON: Yes.
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1 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- then, if that's the
2 case, I mean, that would make sense.
3 But do we have your assurance that this is
4 not -- I mean, if it's not being overfished, or
5 if we're having -- if it's by law, they're
6 allowed to have 12.7, you know, in terms of the
7 diameter -- or radius, then why are they --
8 what is the argument? Because you're not
9 trying to limit or make less the amount of mesh
10 that they have.
11 So do we have your assurance that it,
12 indeed, is not going to lessen by definition
13 when you -- if you go by, what, two dimensional
14 measurements of -- or one -- one dimension
15 versus two dimension --
16 DR. NELSON: You have my --
17 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- three dimension --
18 DR. NELSON: -- absolute assurance of that,
19 Secretary Harris. It's not going to change the
20 size, it's not going to make any nets out there
21 that are legal now illegal. It is not going to
22 do that.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But they're saying
24 they -- they've -- well, this is so darn
25 confusing, it's driving me crazy.
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1 I just -- I've got the feeling that
2 government's trying to simplify something,
3 and -- and the people are getting -- getting it
4 in the neck, because we want to simplify it. I
5 know we -- we need to get this simplified.
6 But I've just got this feeling that the
7 simplification is -- is making it harder for
8 them to have their cast nets and throw them.
9 There doesn't seem to be a -- an ecological
10 problem with cast netters.
11 And so I'm kind of -- you know, I'm
12 perplexed why we're having to hurt people to --
13 to simplify.
14 I mean, isn't there a way to simplify
15 without hurting them?
16 DR. NELSON: We -- we were mandated by the
17 constitutional amendments that were passed in
18 1994 to limit nets, specifically cast nets, and
19 other nets, to 500 square feet.
20 I mean, that is not -- was not the
21 Commission's decision based on a management
22 plan. That was a mandate that the people
23 placed on us through the Constitution.
24 This argument did not exist in 1995 when we
25 came up with these proposals. Everyone knew
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1 and agreed what a 500 square foot cast net is
2 now.
3 Now there are arguments being constructed
4 which we have not accepted, which most of the
5 commercial fishing industry has not accepted,
6 which no scientist or fisherman or gear
7 specialist that I know -- I mean, has ever
8 accepted that are being created to try to allow
9 a net, which we understand and believe to be
10 much greater than 500 square feet be used, just
11 because it's a cast net.
12 SECRETARY HARRIS: Is that because it's a
13 cone?
14 And the question is -- I mean, because if
15 it's a cone, you said you were going to
16 discount what's at the top, versus --
17 DR. NELSON: No --
18 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- the circumference.
19 DR. NELSON: -- that's never been -- can --
20 we've always understood that there is a little
21 extra mesh in that net.
22 If you take your circle,
23 Secretary Harris -- hold up your circle, that's
24 the maximum area that that net could fish. If
25 you take your circle and fold it up, it becomes
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1 a cone. If you open it up, it becomes a
2 circle.
3 I mean, that's the relationship --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I --
5 DR. NELSON: That circle -- that 500 square
6 feet -- there you have the cone. And if you
7 open it up, it becomes a circle.
8 The maximum mesh area that can be presented
9 to the fish is constituted by the circle, the
10 perimeter of that --
11 SECRETARY HARRIS: But this is the circle
12 and this is the cone. You know, if it were a
13 cone, okay? This is a cone.
14 But that's considerably smaller than
15 500 square feet of this cone.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No. The -- the
17 bottom's the same.
18 DR. NELSON: But the bottom is the same.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You see, the
20 square footage is the square footage of the
21 circle. But they're getting to use the cone.
22 They're not -- they're not --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I make --
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- penalizing them
25 that.
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- a suggestion here?
2 Is this -- is this time sensitive? Is the
3 world going to come to an end if --
4 DR. NELSON: Governor, I would be glad
5 to --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can --
7 DR. NELSON: -- ask to withdraw this --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- can we --
9 DR. NELSON: -- rule. And we'll go ahead
10 and deal with it --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just --
12 DR. NELSON: -- in the future. I'm
13 embarrassed that it's taken up so much time.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. Look, this is my
15 first -- I'm -- I'll take all the
16 responsibility. I've never been into a
17 Marine Fisheries Commission Oversight meeting.
18 I don't -- I am so confused. I have no
19 clue -- I couldn't make a rational decision on
20 anything right now.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'd like to
22 temporarily --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'll blame it on me.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll move to
25 temporarily pass this --
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Temporary insanity.
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- to the next
3 meeting.
4 DR. NELSON: Oh.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Bring it back to
6 the next meeting.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you bring it back the
8 next meeting? And someone -- maybe you can
9 come explain, and --
10 DR. NELSON: We -- could we ask that it be
11 withdrawn?
12 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes.
13 DR. NELSON: Like I said, it's not a --
14 it's a technical -- it's interpretive -- we'll
15 deal with the problem in another way.
16 We'll just withdraw it. It's not going to
17 change anything.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's fine.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, if we had
20 the choice of bringing it up or down, and --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: In either -- either case --
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I need to have -- I need
24 to go back -- I don't know if I would -- could
25 pass Commissioner Gallagher's School Readiness
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1 for College with this geometry. I need to get
2 a better understanding of it anyway, because
3 it'll come back.
4 And so maybe you can come by and visit
5 after the session's over, and --
6 DR. NELSON: I'd be glad to.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I presume, Governor,
8 the intent behind this though was to provide
9 the Marine Patrol with a -- a more simplified
10 way --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's what it is.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- of enforcing the
13 law.
14 So I mean, it has some merit. I mean, if
15 it's simplifying -- if I understood you
16 earlier.
17 I mean, I'm not so sure that --
18 DR. NELSON: Yes, Mr. --
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- we need to just
20 cast it aside.
21 DR. NELSON: The point was simply to
22 avoid --
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No pun.
24 DR. NELSON: -- the arguments and the
25 confusion that has been demonstrated here
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1 today. That's -- that's where the point was.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't -- rather than
3 withdraw -- with-- rather than -- what was the
4 term you were using?
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Withdraw.
6 DR. NELSON: Retreat?
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- why don't you come back?
8 Come back to us.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let's just defer
10 it. Defer this to the -- to the -- to the
11 second -- let's say the second Cabinet meeting
12 in May.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And --
14 MS. CASTILLE: That meeting is in
15 Jacksonville.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and bone up on
17 your mathematics --
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: It doesn't matter where it
19 is.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- Governor, on
21 the --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm going to.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- on -- Governor
24 and Cabinet --
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We'll all come back
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1 with --
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And they can see --
3 DR. NELSON: Very well.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- they can see what
5 the difference is if you bone up on your
6 mathematics.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We have a motion
8 and a second on the floor, and I'd like to make
9 a motion to amend that to bring this back the
10 second meeting in May.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
12 second to -- to defer and bring back in the
13 second meeting in May.
14 All in favor?
15 THE CABINET: Aye.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
17 MS. CASTILLE: Governor --
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We'll have a new
19 venue in Jacksonville. It'll make it very
20 interesting.
21 MS. CASTILLE: The meeting on the 25th is
22 in Jacksonville.
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's all right.
24 It doesn't matter where it is.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No.
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1 DR. NELSON: And then we'll move on to what
2 I expected early on would be the more
3 controversial issues on the agenda.
4 Item G would be experimental allowance for
5 the use of skimmer trawls for catching shrimp
6 in Apalachicola Bay.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion --
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and a second.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I do have a
12 question on the bottom impact of -- of this --
13 of this particular device.
14 I have a question on the --
15 DR. NELSON: Excuse me, General. I coul--
16 on the impact on the bottom?
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yeah. One -- one of
18 the reasons why we have handled the shrimp
19 trawls the way we handle them --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- was because of
22 the extensive damage that they could do to the
23 bottom.
24 And this question seems to be ignored in
25 this particular discussion, other than you're
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1 using bottom net is muddy, and -- or deep
2 enough water.
3 DR. NELSON: Well, it's -- a skimmer trawl
4 does not necessarily have to tend or push along
5 the bottom like --
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But it can.
7 DR. NELSON: -- a shrimp trawl. In fact,
8 it's -- or nets that are mounted on the bow of
9 a vessel, and they're not held in place by
10 water pressure.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So it's not --
12 DR. NELSON: It --
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- a bottom -- it's
14 not a bottom question then.
15 DR. NELSON: They are -- they are usually
16 used to fish above the bottom.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
18 DR. NELSON: So I mean --
19 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
20 DR. NELSON: -- we don't know -- this is an
21 experimental gear --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
23 DR. NELSON: -- we'd want to take --
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Fine.
25 DR. NELSON: -- a look at it, whether or
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1 not it should have a permanent place in our
2 management plan.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: All right.
4 Thank you.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
6 second.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 DR. NELSON: And -- and the final item,
9 Item H, would be rules which -- no, it's not
10 the final item, excuse me.
11 -- rules which establish a line of
12 separation between stone crab gear and shrimp
13 trawls in the southwestern area of the state.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 DR. NELSON: And finally, Item I is
18 largely -- truly technical amendments to our
19 marine life rule. There are some changes, most
20 of them conform to the changes in scientific
21 nomenclature to -- to our rule.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I --
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But I -- but I can't
4 let them leave without a comment that he's in
5 serious trouble because he put a golf ball
6 through one of my windows.
7 DR. NELSON: I probably have that sole -- I
8 know I have that sole distinction. Yes.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is that a house
10 window, or your car window?
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection.
13 I -- maybe next -- two weeks from now when
14 you come back in Jacksonville, you can explain
15 the difference between a truly technical
16 amendment, and just a regular --
17 DR. NELSON: I will do my best, Governor.
18 Thank you.
19 (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
20 continued.)
21 *
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Trustees of the Internal
2 Improvement Trust Fund.
3 MR. STRUHS: Item 1 is recommendation to
4 accept the minutes.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. STRUHS: Item 2 is two option
10 agreements to acquire 4-- 421.21 acres within
11 the Wekiva-Ocala Greenway CARL Project.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, it's approved.
16 MR. STRUHS: Item 3 is authority to enter
17 into an acquisition agreement with the
18 South Florida Water Management District and
19 St. Lucie County.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's approved.
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1 MR. STRUHS: Item 4 is an option agreement
2 to acquire 90 acres, subject to a life estate
3 not to exceed 5 acres.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. STRUHS: Substitute Item Number 5,
10 consideration of two option agreements, and a
11 request for survey waivers.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
16 Without opposition, it's approved.
17 MR. STRUHS: Item 6, the applicant has
18 requested renewal of an expired five-year
19 sovereignty submerged lands lease to modify it
20 to a 30-year extended term lease, and to assign
21 it to the Barefoot Boat Club and Condominium
22 Association.
23 We are recommending denial of the 30-year
24 extended term lease, denial of the lease
25 agreement, issuance of a temporary use
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1 agreement for one year with special conditions,
2 and issuance of a five-year lease when all
3 conditions are met.
4 And I'd like to note that there are,
5 I believe, some speakers here who would like to
6 speak for the applicant. Mr. Ebelini, who's
7 representing Mr. Ruff.
8 MR. EBELINI: Good morning, Governor,
9 members of the Cabinet. My name is
10 Mark Ebelini --
11 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
12 MR. EBELINI: -- and I represent the
13 Barefoot Boat Club Condominium Association; and
14 its developer, Edward J. Ruff Development,
15 Incorporated.
16 As stated in the item, this is our request
17 for a 30-year submerged lands lease from the
18 Board of Trustees for the Barefoot Boat Club
19 Condominium, a marina/condominium located in
20 Collier County, Florida.
21 This Cabinet, and, of course, the Governor,
22 has changed since we came back here last --
23 last summer. At that time, the submerged lands
24 lease rules were being amended to --
25 (Commissioner Gallagher exited the room.)
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1 MR. EBELINI: -- limit certain uses, and,
2 of course, also deal with lease terms.
3 Well, the lease term for 25 years was going
4 to remain as is. We requested that it go to
5 30, based upon our particular issue which we
6 came before you under the Condominium Act. And
7 I'll go to that at this point.
8 Very briefly, and I've distributed some
9 minutes which should -- some materials which
10 should assist us in -- in looking at this
11 matter.
12 The Tab 1, of course, is a -- is a picture
13 of the facility.
14 Now, the basis for our request for a
15 30-year lease is -- is grounded in the Florida
16 Condominium Act. Under 718.401(1), a
17 condominium, if it's created on land held under
18 a lease, or if it includes common elements, or
19 commonly used facilities on a leasehold, the
20 lease must be for a term of 30 years. And
21 that's in the Condominium Act.
22 As the Barefoot Boat Club had a --
23 two-and-a-half years left on a modified
24 submerged lands lease when the first unit was
25 sold, several unit owners filed objections in a
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1 lawsuit saying that the lease should be for
2 30 years, at least because of the common slips
3 that are used for taking boats from storage
4 into the water, and, of course, returning those
5 boats to the dry storage.
6 And that matter is currently in mediation,
7 which has been recessed so we can come here and
8 ask-- request a 30-year lease to resolve the
9 problem.
10 Now, the condominium itself, as shown on
11 the first tab, is a state of the art facility.
12 It contains extensive improvements on the
13 uplands --
14 (Commissioner Gallagher entered the room.)
15 MR. EBELINI: -- including a clubhouse; a
16 pool; a ship's store; a boat barn; a boat
17 washdown area with a recycled water
18 requirement; and other facilities, including
19 the docking facility, which is entirely --
20 (Governor Bush exited the room.)
21 MR. EBELINI: -- PVC with -- and reinforced
22 concrete. There's no wood or -- or treated
23 wood on the -- on the submerged lands.
24 Now, when we applied for a 30-year lease
25 last time, we -- we came back, of course, on
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1 the lease rule, and the question was raised by
2 a Board member to -- to basically Mr. Green,
3 can you solve our problem by granting a 30-year
4 lease without the rule being amended.
5 And the answer was yes, that's why we're
6 back. We applied with Mr. Green, who requested
7 that we submit a letter to him stating our
8 basis for a 30-year lease.
9 We did so, but then the General Counsel's
10 Office expressed concern that perhaps we had in
11 the condominium documents put the leasehold
12 interest into the condominium form ownership.
13 We've disagreed.
14 But the way we attempted to resolve that --
15 and we thank Mr. Costigan and the
16 General Counsel's Office for their attention to
17 the matter -- to resolve it by an amendment
18 executed by 100 percent of the unit owners that
19 would basically clarify what the leasehold
20 interest is.
21 And we still say it was always supreme, and
22 it will be supreme, be the governing document
23 regarding any interests in the submerged lands
24 for this Association.
25 And that would -- and then we can get a
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1 30-year lease with that amendment being,
2 of course, on the records.
3 And without getting the --
4 (Governor Bush entered the room.)
5 MR. EBELINI: -- 30-year lease, we really
6 can't achieve the amendment because of -- of
7 obviously the realities of -- of getting
8 100 percent approval. But we can do it with
9 the former.
10 Now, this is a novel situation. There was
11 always 100 percent disclosure as to what was
12 going on. Page -- the second page of Tab 3
13 shows that when this condominium was originally
14 formed, there was a submerged lands lease
15 disclosure.
16 It -- it clearly states that the
17 Association and the developer had entered into
18 a lease for the purpose of putting these
19 facilities in the submerged lands, and that the
20 interest of the condominium was subject to all
21 the -- the proprietary interests of -- of
22 the Board of Trustees, and the people of the
23 State of Florida. There's no lack of
24 disclosure there.
25 Tabs 5 and 6 of the materials demonstrate
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1 that the Department of Environmental
2 Protection's office -- local office in
3 Fort Myers knew from the beginning that this
4 was going to be a condominium prior to the
5 permit being issued for the facility, and prior
6 to the lease being issued.
7 Of course, the -- to get the permit, there
8 had to be extensive restoration of the
9 shoreline, we had exotic removal that's going
10 to be maintained and must be maintained in
11 perpetuity, we granted a conservation easement
12 in order to get the permit to build this
13 facility on land which had to be restored and
14 granted in a recorded easement to the State of
15 Florida.
16 A lot of money has been spent to create
17 this facility which has been held up by the
18 industry as basically a prototype for marina
19 designs in the future with no treated wood, and
20 with a facility that maintains the natural
21 shoreline.
22 What we have here is .5 acres of nearshore
23 sovereignty submerged lands that has a
24 technical problem created by the
25 Condominium Act. We basically have -- once
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1 again, offered the amendment as a condition to
2 getting this 30-year lease that would -- that
3 would again clarify any concerns that the
4 General Counsel's Office has regarding the
5 condominium.
6 We don't think that there was a problem
7 here. But we're saying, hey, look, we're not
8 going to argue that issue, we understand the
9 concern that this Board has with submerged
10 lands, and we are willing to go ahead and
11 create an amendment that will solve that issue,
12 and -- and -- and deal with it.
13 Thirty-year lease will solve the problem
14 that plagues this Association, because,
15 you know, there is commonly used facilities on
16 a leasehold. It's these common slips that are
17 used for going in and out. And there's an
18 argument that could be made, it's being made in
19 litigation, and we'd like to resolve the
20 problem for the benefit of the unit owners, as
21 well as, of course, resolving litigation which
22 plagues the developer as well.
23 This is our sixth time coming before you,
24 the Board or the Cabinet Aides, to resolve this
25 matter, which I, quite frankly, have to admit,
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1 I brought to the attention of the Department in
2 an attempt to resolve this matter.
3 So I stand before you saying, I came here
4 last summer in an attempt to resolve a matter.
5 It's mushroomed into quite a large matter. But
6 I think we can solve it.
7 I thank Mr. Green for giving us the
8 opportunity to come here. I thank Mr. Costigan
9 for his attention to the matter.
10 But we are requesting -- and I -- it's a
11 policy issue, I understand, with the Board of
12 Trustees, a 30-year lease to resolve this
13 problem.
14 Once again, respecting your proprietary and
15 fiduciary responsibilities. And in no way are
16 we attempting whatsoever to thwart that, and
17 you have a lease with -- that will have
18 restriction use provisions that, you know, list
19 any activities on the submerged lands that
20 cannot happen, no live aboards, and a variety
21 of other controls.
22 We're -- once again, this is a very
23 controlled lease -- lease application and lease
24 request. And obviously the lease could be
25 terminated if we violate it.
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1 And, you know, we stand before you with
2 knowledge of that. It's a 30-year lease term,
3 but it's revokable if we violate it. But this
4 Association is set up for perpetual control,
5 and we meet all the other requirements, we
6 believe, clearly, for an extended term lease.
7 In this case though, based upon 718.401, we
8 need it to be 30 years rather than 25. And
9 that's our request. And if we -- if there's
10 any questions regarding this facility, any
11 questions regarding the materials which I
12 presented, or any other questions which are
13 unclear, I can try to answer them.
14 And I can't measure the circumference of --
15 area of a cone or anything else either.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Be glad.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I have a question,
18 Governor.
19 MR. EBELINI: Sure.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Are you aware that
22 on September 11th, there was a site inspection
23 done, and it showed that certain vessels were
24 using more --
25 MR. EBELINI: Yes.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- of the
2 sovereignty square foot than had been leased?
3 MR. EBELINI: Yeah. Let me --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Are you going
5 to --
6 MR. EBELINI: -- let me explain that.
7 What happened when the lease area was
8 calculated, what the engineer did was he said,
9 well, you -- you have your terminal piers, the
10 ones that are waterward, here they are, here
11 are the poles, so there's our lease area.
12 And what he should have done, and he didn't
13 do, and he did it on --
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Is that --
15 MR. EBELINI: -- a couple of others that he
16 had done is he didn't put 4 or 5 feet over.
17 So what we had was a couple of boats that
18 were protruding with engines actually -- some
19 of them were actually up. But they were a
20 little bit further into the water.
21 So what we did was solving that problem by
22 having that engineer, and this surveying
23 company, went out and surveyed the corrected
24 area, and we gave enough, and basically
25 expanded it all around so that there's not a
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1 problem.
2 That was an embarrassing problem, and I'll
3 assure you Mr. Ruff was very upset about it.
4 And we made sure that that lease area was --
5 was amended.
6 And if there's any retroactive fees, we're
7 willing to pay them. That's -- you know,
8 that's not something that -- that we --
9 you know, in any way deliberately had happen.
10 It was about 3 -- 3 feet off some of them.
11 But we should have it for all the boats that
12 way, so if they protrude past those pilings,
13 it's uniform. And that's what we've done.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: My question will
15 be for the Secretary next.
16 MR. EBELINI: Okay. I guess Mr. Ruff also,
17 who is the President for Edward J. Ruff
18 Development Corporation, has -- as I said,
19 he's -- I guess, anguished over this issue for
20 several years as well.
21 And he wanted to come up here and -- and
22 basically -- you know, any way clarify the
23 issue and how he got involved in this process,
24 and -- and basically that there was -- once
25 again, it was full disclosure is what we were
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1 doing. It's just, we're a novel issue.
2 I saw you had Naples Bay, Limited, come up
3 for a -- for a lease -- actually an amendment
4 of their existing 25-year lease, to create a
5 boat club condominium. And, you know, quite
6 frankly, a lot of our documents were used.
7 But we understand we've created a problem
8 that we're trying to now resolve because this
9 was a prototype or a novel issue.
10 Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Thank you.
12 Mr. Secretary, is --
13 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It appears to me
15 that what we have is a condominium law that
16 requires the -- and it wasn't done for boat
17 slips obviously, it was done for common areas,
18 rec are-- rec leases basically, I think -- and
19 that they required them to be a minimum of
20 30 years.
21 And so someone doing condo documents would
22 take that particular facility, which would
23 normally in a condo wouldn't be submerged
24 lands, and made that available to their
25 condominium owners.
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1 And now the problem is that they've made a
2 commitment to their condominium owners they've
3 sold condos to to have this -- this submerged
4 lands available to them according to the
5 condominium law for 30 years, but yet we have
6 rules that keep us below the 30 years.
7 Am -- am I about right where we are on
8 this?
9 Or is there something else --
10 MR. STRUHS: If --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- to it on
12 this --
13 MR. STRUHS: -- if I might just for the
14 sequence of events, if -- if I could address
15 that later, but invite Mr. Ruff, if he would
16 like to have --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay.
18 MR. STRUHS: I'd recommend 5 minutes so
19 that you can dispense with that.
20 And then I'd like to offer Mr. Costigan
21 from our staff to address your questions.
22 MR. RUFF: Good morning, Governor --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
24 MR. RUFF: -- Cabinet.
25 My name's Ed Ruff, and I'm a developer of
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1 Barefoot Boat Club. Edward J. Ruff Development
2 is our company. My wife and my four children
3 work with our company. My -- my son built
4 Barefoot Boat Club.
5 I've been in the -- the real estate and
6 development business in Florida for almost
7 30 years, and been involved in literally
8 thousands and thousands of transactions without
9 a hint of controversy.
10 And as we went through into the process of
11 building Barefoot --
12 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
13 room.)
14 MR. RUFF: -- Boat Club, which was
15 basically a dream that we'd had for years to
16 build a -- a prototype marine facility for the
17 future.
18 Because we had -- over the years with
19 our -- our buyers of residential property,
20 their choices were limited. The marinas were
21 outdated. Many of the marinas in Florida are
22 50, 60 years old. The facilities need to be
23 redone. There were no permitting processes at
24 all during -- in those days.
25 So, in effect, the marinas that -- that I
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1 want to work on are the marinas that the DEP
2 and the Corps of Engineers and the Fish and
3 Wildlife and Marine Fisheries, and this body
4 want redeveloped.
5 I want to recreate water management systems
6 on the surface, I want to create new boat dock
7 systems that don't pollute the waters of
8 Florida. I want to put in water recycling
9 systems like we did at Barefoot Boat Club.
10 Like we're doing a Deep Lagoon Boat Club in
11 Fort Myers, like we are planning on Naples Boat
12 Club on Naples Bay.
13 So when we set out to do Barefoot Boat
14 Club, you know, we had a plan in mind. And
15 because we had never done it before, I got
16 totally involved in that process. I worked
17 with the DEP, the Fish and Wildlife, the
18 Corps of Engineers, in virtually -- the
19 Internal Improvement Trust Fund, the County.
20 And I was involved in virtually every
21 meeting. I -- I -- I was involved for one
22 reason, because I needed to understand what we
23 were dealing with as we went through this
24 process.
25 And I needed to know that each of these
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1 agencies --
2 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
3 room.)
4 MR. RUFF: -- knew what we were doing.
5 And so we -- we disclosed fully to them
6 exactly how we proposed to develop this
7 property, and how we proposed to sell it. And
8 that's documented in the records that you have,
9 so I don't need to reiterate that too much.
10 As we went through the process of selling
11 it, the folks that I sold Barefoot Boat Club
12 to, ladies and gentlemen, I've been dealing
13 with these people for -- some of them 25 and
14 30 years I've sold them property.
15 They're my friends; they come to my house;
16 they're -- they're people I socialize with;
17 they're -- they've bought property from me,
18 you know, five and six times.
19 Believe me, I wouldn't lead them into
20 anything that would -- would harm them in any
21 way.
22 And I didn't want Barefoot Boat Club to be
23 harmed. In our mind, we -- after going through
24 this long involved technical process to develop
25 a property like this -- and it is a very
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1 technical process -- we've got a glitch here.
2 We've got a -- a -- a difference between a
3 five-year lease, a 25-year lease or a 30-year
4 lease. At the time Mark Miller with the
5 Internal Improvement Trust Fund in Fort Myers,
6 when I was determining what -- the term of the
7 lease that I should want for this property, he
8 said, Ed --
9 I said, why should I take a 5-year lease,
10 or should I take a 25-year lease?
11 And he said, Ed, you don't need a 25-year
12 lease. He said a 5-year lease, he said, just
13 take that. He said, it's cheaper, and he said,
14 it's fully -- it's automatically renewed. He
15 said, all you have to do is apply.
16 He said, it never -- never been a --
17 there's never been a submerged lease that was
18 ever not renewed.
19 He said, so just take a 5-year lease. It's
20 no big deal.
21 And I said, fine.
22 And I -- I called him three times during
23 that process just to say, now, Mark, I want to
24 be positive about this. So reiterate to me
25 exactly about this -- this 5-year lease, this
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1 25-year lease.
2 I can have a 25-year lease, right, Mark?
3 Yes.
4 At that time, it was a pretty simple
5 process.
6 He said, yes, you can have your 25-year
7 lease, Ed.
8 I said, well, tell me again why I shouldn't
9 do that.
10 He said, well, it's -- it costs more money,
11 you know.
12 And so basically we chose a 5-year lease.
13 That's been changed recently.
14 So we really walked right into a glitch.
15 The Condominium Act, which I've been dealing
16 with for 30 years, been selling condominiums.
17 And the Condominium Act has this thing in
18 there about this 30-year lease. It's not a
19 major thing. These people that own this club
20 are going to take care of this property if
21 they've got a 5-year lease, a 25-year lease, or
22 100-year lease.
23 They're going to take care of this property
24 the same way, because they're good people and
25 they're going to pay their bill every year, and
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1 they're going to -- they're going to try to --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why don't --
3 MR. RUFF: -- without --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've sold it out?
5 MR. RUFF: Yes. It sold in about
6 three weeks.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Shouldn't -- shouldn't --
8 are you the -- why is the developer still the
9 owner of the Association then?
10 MR. RUFF: Well, frankly --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Because he's got
12 to deliver 30 years, and he's only got five to
13 deliver.
14 MR. RUFF: Not -- not really. To tell
15 you -- what my -- there is a -- there are five
16 individuals -- out of 95 owners, there are five
17 individuals.
18 And very frankly, the only thing they've
19 ever asked for in this -- in this -- during
20 this entire time, Governor, is -- is -- are
21 half a million dollars.
22 I mean, so it's about money, in my personal
23 opinion. But --
24 MR. EBELINI: We should state that Mr. Ruff
25 is maintaining control of the Association based
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1 on the unit owners telling him, we want you to
2 solve this problem, and then turn it over to
3 us.
4 MR. RUFF: And if that -- I will.
5 You know, because I've dealt -- dealt with them
6 for many years. So they're -- they're
7 basically relying on me to get this problem
8 solved.
9 And that's what I'm attempting to do.
10 So I'll answer any question you might have.
11 But I thank you for your time.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I want to throw
14 out a -- a suggestion to the Secretary when
15 they're commenting on why we shouldn't do
16 something that I have in mind. When I --
17 whenever it's time.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
19 MR. RUFF: Thank you.
20 MR. STRUHS: Thank you very much.
21 What I might recommend then, to get back to
22 your question, Commissioner Gallagher, is to
23 invite Secretary Cynthia Henderson.
24 I believe she can more clearly enunciate
25 why the Florida Condominium laws, and our own
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1 DEP requirements and the requirements of the
2 Board of Trustees can, in fact, work well
3 together.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How they can?
5 MR. STRUHS: Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, right here,
7 they're not doing too good, are they?
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. They're sure --
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: At least they
10 don't seem like they are to me.
11 MS. HENDERSON: Good morning.
12 Thank you for the opportunity to speak with
13 you on this issue.
14 I'm Cynthia Henderson with the Department
15 of Business and Professional Regulation.
16 The issue, as I understand it, in talking
17 with Colleen for your consideration -- or -- or
18 to clarify the confusion, is under our
19 condominium documents, there are basically two
20 types of properties: One are common elements;
21 and then others are unit owner, you know --
22 interests in the common properties.
23 But they're not common elements. In other
24 words, they're not available for ownership --
25 you know, each unit owner has their individual.
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1 And in the condominium documents, they had
2 described the dock areas as common elements,
3 which means each owner had an undivided
4 interest. That's where I think the confusion
5 arose with the different agencies and the
6 owners including -- the agency's review and the
7 owners including within their condominium
8 documents the term common elements.
9 In order to resolve this in the future, and
10 what I think DEP is working with the developer
11 to do, is to revise the condominium documents,
12 and have the dock areas be excluded from the
13 common elements.
14 Therefore, they would not violate or be
15 contradictory to our condominium laws under
16 Chapter 718. And they would not be common
17 elements, and, therefore, the homeowners
18 association, just as their interest in the
19 property could -- could do the contractual
20 arrangements.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, I think that
22 would be great, except you're trying to put the
23 horse back in the barn after he's already out.
24 I mean, you have a developer who has --
25 who -- using what he believed was the right
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1 thing -- at least I think he did -- in good
2 faith, sold people an undivided interest in a
3 lease that he thought was no problem to be
4 30 years when he first did it. We allowed
5 that.
6 He went ahead and was instructed to do it
7 for five, which he did. We changed the rules
8 and say we only do five. And now he has some
9 buyers that say, oh, I got a little glitch
10 here, we can play a game, and I'm going to sue
11 them for half a million dollars.
12 So I don't know -- the people that are
13 suing him aren't going to go back and say, I'm
14 willing to change the condo docks, because they
15 have to sign to agree to do that.
16 So I -- I don't know how we get them to do
17 that, unless you do.
18 MR. STRUHS: Just -- just to clarify the
19 discussion, if I might.
20 Pardon me.
21 In fact, the Board never did grant a
22 30-year --
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Oh, I understand
24 that.
25 I -- but unfortunately the developer,
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1 because he used the condominium docks, granted
2 a 30-- pretty much granted a 30-year lease to
3 his -- to his purchasers. He may not have had
4 one to grant. But they thought they were
5 getting it, and he thought he was giving it to
6 them.
7 MS. HENDERSON: If you want to know my
8 personal opinion on it, I do --
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sure.
10 MS. HENDERSON: -- not see a problem with
11 entering into a 25-year submerged land lease
12 with the homeowners of the Condominium
13 Association.
14 That -- you know, from our department, it
15 makes all the sense in the world to do what was
16 done two weeks ago with the other one. And
17 I've expressed that. But that was basically a
18 policy decision of the Cabinet, whether they
19 had done that.
20 When I talked with DEP staff, they were of
21 the in-- understanding that the Cabinet did not
22 prefer to have more than five-year leases. And
23 we discussed it further, and the examples were
24 with regard to oil leases. But I pointed out
25 the disting-- you know, to distinguish oil
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1 lease situations with navigable waters,
2 you know, interstate commerce with situations
3 like this, that the public interest would not
4 be jeopardized.
5 So if it were our department making
6 recommendation, we'd say, go with at least a
7 25-year lease.
8 But it's a policy decision for the Cabinet
9 to make. But it would not conflict with our
10 documents to have a 25-year lease.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Or 30?
12 MS. HENDERSON: Or 30. It's up to y'all.
13 MR. STRUHS: What I -- what I might do,
14 just to -- to round out the discussion is if --
15 with your approval, is to invite Mr. Costigan
16 from our staff to -- to present some more
17 details.
18 I think as you -- as you consider the
19 issue, keep in mind, there's -- there's the one
20 issue of the terms of the lease: Five years,
21 25 years, 30 years. That should be
22 reconcilable.
23 More important than that, of course, is the
24 subordination of the comm-- of the State's
25 interests. And -- and I think that's one of
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1 the key issues that John might address.
2 MR. COSTIGAN: Thank you.
3 Governor, members of the Cabinet, my name
4 is John Costigan. I'm a Deputy General Counsel
5 at Department of Environmental Protection.
6 In 1993, in October, Mr. Ruff's --
7 Ruff Development's predecessor received a
8 five-year lease from the Board of Trustees.
9 About two years later, Mr. Ruff purchased
10 this property, and was assigned this leasehold
11 interest. This lease was for six wet slips.
12 These wet slips were designed to be used by
13 90 dry slip owners when they put their boats in
14 and out of the water. It was a standard marina
15 lease.
16 Mr. Ruff, about six months later,
17 two-and-a-half years left on his five-year
18 lease, on his own, converted his upland
19 property to condominium ownership. When he did
20 that, he took your leasehold interest in
21 sovereign submerged lands, and wrapped it up
22 into condominium ownership.
23 He did it in two ways: He got an
24 additional 18 slips, for a total of 24. He
25 took six slips and made them common elements.
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1 He conveyed them into private ownership when he
2 did that.
3 He took the other 18 slips, and he
4 advertised them for sale for around 35,000
5 a piece.
6 And I believe as of this time, he's sold
7 about half of those. He quit selling them
8 because he got sued by about a half dozen unit
9 owners, both dry slip unit owners and wet slip
10 unit owners, that alleged that he had violated
11 Chapter 718, Florida Statutes.
12 They seem to have a pretty good argument.
13 They've been in litigation for two years,
14 and they've been in mediation recently.
15 Mr. Ruff has said before to me in the past
16 week, said he has already offered to rescind
17 those contracts with those wet slip owners.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Give their money
19 back.
20 MR. COSTIGAN: That would fix that.
21 The problem becomes is -- is that what
22 Mr. Ruff of Ruff Development did when they did
23 this, they either didn't read the lease, or
24 they read the lease and they decided to breach
25 the lease they have with you.
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1 I don't know what the argument is about
2 Mark Miller. But paragraph 8 says the lessee
3 shall make no claim of title or interest to
4 said lands.
5 He did, he wrapped it up, and he sold it to
6 other people.
7 Paragraph 9 says the lease shall not be
8 assigned or otherwise transferred without prior
9 written consent of the Trustees. He violated
10 that.
11 Paragraph 10 says that during the term of
12 the lease, he maintains a leasehold or fee
13 simple interest in the adjacent upland
14 property. And he violated that by selling it
15 into condominium ownership.
16 He has created this situation by himself.
17 He's paying about $1500 a year in total lease
18 fees, and he was advertising 18 wet slip units
19 for sale at around 35,000 a piece, or over a
20 half a million dollars.
21 There's nothing wrong with making money,
22 there is something wrong with ignoring or
23 breaching the lease he had with the people of
24 the state of Florida.
25 There is something wrong with going further
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1 then, and violating Chapter 718,
2 Florida Statutes.
3 Requires a 30- or 50-year leasehold.
4 So when we look at this, what we're trying
5 to do in this agenda item is address these
6 problems, and correct them. What we could do,
7 is we could go do an enforcement action and say
8 the lease is terminated, and you have to get
9 off sovereign lands.
10 That wouldn't solve a problem. You have 90
11 innocent dry slip purchasers that still rely on
12 those six slips to get their boats in and out
13 of the water.
14 So what we're saying in this agenda item is
15 that we give them a temporary use agreement,
16 not a lease at all right now. He has to come
17 into compliance with the lease he had with you.
18 In order to do that, he needs to take your
19 property, and the interest in that property,
20 out of private ownership. He has to amend his
21 declaration of condominium. And when he does
22 that, the Association can have a five-year
23 lease under a different section of Chapter 718.
24 It's pretty simple. What he's asking you
25 to do is to give him a 30-year lease, and to
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1 ratify his breach of the lease; to ratify his,
2 frankly, breaking the provisions of 718.401 so
3 he now can come into compliance with it so that
4 he can continue in his relationship where he
5 has sold the leasehold interest into private
6 ownership with everything that goes with that.
7 That's what he's asking you to do.
8 And we're recommending that you not do
9 that, because when you do that, you're opening
10 a real can of worms.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's a problem.
12 MR. COSTIGAN: So that's pretty simply what
13 the agenda item says, and what we're
14 recommending.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: So I understand it, you --
16 you could have recommended also, should
17 Mr. Ruff get his private legal dispute
18 resolved, a 25-year lease as well.
19 The five-year lease is a --
20 MR. COSTIGAN: Five or twenty-five doesn't
21 make much difference, except --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
23 MR. COSTIGAN: -- I've got to tell you,
24 your rule right now is generally five. And
25 you'll go up to 25 if you have a unique
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1 operational constraint.
2 I don't think the self creation of a breach
3 of a lease --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: I understand. I just want
5 to be --
6 MR. COSTIGAN: -- and the --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- sure I --
8 MR. COSTIGAN: -- violation --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- understood this.
10 MR. COSTIGAN: -- it constitutes a unique
11 operational constraint.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But the --
13 MR. COSTIGAN: The 25 years doesn't get him
14 what he wants.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
16 But the Condominium Association, if he --
17 if he could redo his condo documents, the
18 Condominium Association, he could, in fact,
19 turn the lease -- potential lease there to
20 them, and they could come and apply for
21 25 years --
22 MR. COSTIGAN: Five or --
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- and it would
24 be --
25 MR. COSTIGAN: -- five or twenty-five.
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1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It would be
2 looked --
3 MR. COSTIGAN: You have over
4 300 condominium associations that you have
5 five-year leases with.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. And we
7 renew them on a --
8 MR. COSTIGAN: Sure.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- regular basis.
10 MR. COSTIGAN: Five or twenty-five doesn't
11 make any difference.
12 But our position is, first thing he's got
13 to do, he's got to come back into compliance
14 with the lease that he had with you --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's right.
16 MR. COSTIGAN: -- by taking this out of
17 private ownership.
18 And by suggesting that you give him a
19 30-year lease, he's avoiding doing that, he
20 remains in this situation where -- where he's
21 conveyed into private ownership sovereign
22 submerged lands or the leasehold interest in
23 that. And --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments,
25 questions?
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll move staff --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- staff --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: --
6 recommendation.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- second staff
8 recommendation.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
10 second.
11 Without objection, staff recommendation is
12 approved.
13 MR. STRUHS: Thank you.
14 Item 7 requests consideration of a proposed
15 settlement agreement in the case of
16 G. Sandcastle, Inc., versus Board of Trustees;
17 and the Board of Trustees versus G. Sandcastle,
18 Inc.
19 I'd like to draw your attention, and the
20 staff's attention, to the fact that there were
21 two minor changes to the settlement agreement
22 that occurred late Friday.
23 Sandcastle Corporation has already signed
24 this proposed settlement agreement. We would
25 recommend approval in the amount of $156,000
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1 under the terms of this proposed settlement
2 agreement.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the item.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion?
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second?
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. STRUHS: Thank you.
10 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
11 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
12 *
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, if I may
2 make a quick comment, to go back --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, General.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- to the net
5 business.
6 I did some quick -- I did some quick
7 mathematical calculation. And if, in fact, the
8 Supreme Court method of measuring nets is used,
9 they would be able to have at least
10 1,000 square foot net, throw net. Cast net.
11 And it raises the question then, in my
12 mind, as to whether or not we -- the
13 Supreme Court ruling isn't in violation of the
14 500 square foot constitutional amendment.
15 And I -- I think it needs --
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, is --
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- to be looked at.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- is this based
19 on the stretch program?
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: They're going to --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well --
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- have to explain
23 their actions.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It -- it was very
25 simple to figure it out, I'll tell you, that
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April 27, 1999
1 it's 1,000 square foot cast net.
2 SECRETARY HARRIS: Well, then maybe --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I'm going to become
4 an expert in the next month.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yes, you are.
6 (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
7 concluded.)
8 *
9 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
10 11:46 a.m.)
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166
April 27, 1999
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
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5 STATE OF FLORIDA:
6 COUNTY OF LEON:
7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
11 pages numbered 1 through 165 are a true and correct
12 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
16 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
17 DATED THIS 7TH day of MAY, 1999.
18
19
20 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
100 Salem Court
21 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
850/878-2221
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