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Cabinet
Affairs |
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2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
7 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
8 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION
9 BOARD OF TRUSTEES, INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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The above agencies came to be heard before
11 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
12 The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
November 18, 1997, commencing at approximately
13 9:50 a.m.
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16 Reported by:
17 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
18 Certified Court Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
19 Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850/878-2221
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
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BOB MILLIGAN
5 Comptroller
6 SANDRA B. MORTHAM
Secretary of State
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BOB BUTTERWORTH
8 Attorney General
9 BILL NELSON
Treasurer
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FRANK T. BROGAN
11 Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
November 18, 1997
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Tom Herndon,
4 Executive Director)
5 1 Approved 6
2 Approved 6
6 3 Approved 7
4 Approved 7
7 5 Approved 7
6 Approved 8
8 7 Approved 8
Good Cause Item Approved 9
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
10 (Presented by John J. Waltz,
Manager of Legal Services)
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1 Approved 13
12 2 Approved 13
3 Approved 14
13 4 Approved 15
14 DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS:
(Presented by Carlos L. Rainwater,
15 Executive Director)
16 1 Approved 16
2 Approved 21
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DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
18 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 24
20 2 Approved 24
3 Approved 25
21 4 Approved 25
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
November 18, 1997
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
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STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
4 (Presented by Robert L. Bedford, Ph.D.,
Deputy Commissioner)
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1 Approved 26
6 2 Deferred 26
3 Withdrawn 26
7 4 Approved 27
5 Approved 27
8 6 Approved 28
9 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
10 Secretary)
11 1 Approved 29
2 Deferred 29
12 3 Approved 29
4 Approved 30
13 5 Approved 30
6 Approved 30
14 7 Approved 31
8 Approved 31
15 9 Approved 31
10 Approved 44
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MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION:
17 (Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D.,
Executive Director)
18
A Approved 46
19 B Approved 46
C Approved 46
20 D Approved 47
E Approved 47
21 F Approved 47
G Approved 48
22 H Approved 48
I Approved 48
23 J Approved 69
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
November 18, 1997
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
4 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
5 (Presented by Kirby B. Green, III,
Deputy Secretary)
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1 Approved 72
7 Substitute 2 Approved 72
3 Approved 72
8 4 Approved 73
5 Approved 73
9 6 Approved 73
7 Approved 73
10 8 Approved 74
9 Approved 74
11 10 Approved 74
11 Approved 74
12 12 Approved 75
Substitute 13 Approved 77
13 14 Approved 77
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 78
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:50 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now we'll go to the
4 agenda, the State Board of Administration.
5 MR. HERNDON: Item number 1 is approval of
6 the minutes of the meeting held on November 4th,
7 1997.
8 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, they're approved.
12 MR. HERNDON: Item number 2 is approval of
13 fiscal sufficiency for Florida Department of
14 Transportation Turnpike Revenue Bond Series 1997
15 of 330 million dollars.
16 TREASURER NELSON: And I move it.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. HERNDON: Item number 3 is approval of
21 a fiscal sufficiency of a 21.5 million dollar
22 Florida Housing Finance Agency bond, 1997
23 series, for Willow Lake Apartments project.
24 TREASURER NELSON: And I move it.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I second it.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 MR. HERNDON: Item number 4 is approval of
4 fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding
5 sixteen million four hundred and twenty thousand
6 dollars for Florida Housing Finance Agency, 1997
7 series for the Barrington Place Apartment
8 project.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, that's approved.
13 MR. HERNDON: Item number 5 is also
14 approval of fiscal sufficiency of an amount not
15 exceeding fourteen million seven hundred and
16 fifty thousand dollar Florida Housing Finance
17 Agency Housing Revenue Bond, 1997 series, for
18 Sarah's Place Apartments project.
19 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the item.
21 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
23 Without objection, that's approved.
24 MR. HERNDON: Item number 6 is approval of
25 fiscal sufficiency of an amount not exceeding
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 13 million dollars for Florida Housing
2 Finance Agency housing revenue bond, 1997
3 series, for the Wentworth Apartment project.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the item.
5 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. HERNDON: Item number 7, pursuant to
9 Florida Statutes 240.551, the State Board of
10 Administration is required to approve any
11 changes to the Prepaid College Tuition Program's
12 Comprehensive Investment Plan.
13 We have reviewed those proposed changes
14 that were adopted by their Board, and recommend
15 them for your approval.
16 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, that's approved.
20 MR. HERNDON: The final item is a good
21 cause item which was submitted yesterday, and I
22 appreciate your indulgence.
23 This is a recommendation for an interest
24 rate exception on bonds proposed to be issued
25 for the Parkway Center Community Development
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 District in an amount not to exceed
2 twenty-one million one hundred and five thousand
3 dollars, and an interest rate not to exceed
4 8.50 percent.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the item.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and second.
8 Without objection, that's approved.
9 MR. HERNDON: That completes the agenda,
10 Governor.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Give us some idea, if you
12 would, please, sir, with the fluctuations in the
13 market right now, is that causing bond prices
14 to -- to go up -- how -- you know, how does it
15 look like that's affecting us?
16 I know we had this huge rise for so long.
17 And now it seems to be really fluctuating.
18 MR. HERNDON: Actually, as you know, it's
19 quite often that bond and stock prices rise in a
20 disconnected fashion. They -- in other words,
21 as one rises, the other might fall, and
22 so forth.
23 Here of late, that has not been the case.
24 They seem to be rising together to some extent.
25 In part, that seems to be a function of what's
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 going on in Asia, as an awful lot of the money
2 in Asian markets moves to the U.S. in a desire
3 to get to quality products.
4 As we look out, I think, and the folks from
5 Bond Finance might be in a position to speak a
6 little bit more insightfully than I, but I think
7 the prognosis still looks quite good for bond
8 prices in the future.
9 And I know all of you, especially with this
10 morning's agenda, have in mind that
11 two-and-a-half billion dollars of education
12 bonds that you'll be going to market for
13 probably sometime in the spring of next year,
14 and the -- as I say, the prognosis for bond
15 prices remains quite encouraging.
16 So it should be a good opportunity to go to
17 the market. And we also are looking to go to
18 the market for the underground tanks program
19 bonds probably sometime in the next 30 days.
20 And, again, we're quite optimistic that bond
21 prices will set some good levels for us. So we
22 should be in good shape.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: So while normally maybe
24 conventional wisdom would be if the stock market
25 starts to fall, more people go into bonds --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 MR. HERNDON: Right.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- and that might change
3 the price. Now with all of this money kind of
4 coming in from Asia --
5 MR. HERNDON: Right.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- that's --
7 MR. HERNDON: That seems to have bolstered
8 the U.S. bond market. We do have good credit
9 quality, the corporations are performing well.
10 So corporate paper is quite strong. And,
11 of course, the U.S. economy is quite strong, the
12 Federal deficit is an all-time low.
13 And so U.S. Treasuries are marketable at
14 levels that we've not seen in a long time. So
15 all in all, it's a good environment for the bond
16 market.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
20 TREASURER NELSON: They need to be
21 congratulated. They just won the Pacesetter
22 Award for this year, which is to promote the
23 full involvement of women and minorities in the
24 investment industry.
25 So our collective congratulations to Tom,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 18, 1997
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1 and to --
2 MR. HERNDON: Thank you.
3 TREASURER NELSON: -- the staff of the SBA.
4 MR. HERNDON: Thank you, sir. We
5 appreciate that very much.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
7 MR. HERNDON: Thank you.
8 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
9 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
November 18, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Bond Finance.
2 MR. WALTZ: Governor Chiles, members of the
3 Cabinet, my name's John Waltz with the Division
4 of Bond Finance.
5 Item number 1 is approval of minutes of the
6 meeting of November 4th, 1997.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, they're approved.
11 MR. WALTZ: Item number 2 is adoption of a
12 resolution authorizing the competitive sale, not
13 exceeding 330 million, State of Florida,
14 Department of Transportation Turnpike Revenue
15 Bond, series 1997B.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
20 Without objection, that's approved.
21 MR. WALTZ: Item number 3 is adoption of
22 four resolutions on behalf and at the request of
23 the Florida Housing Finance Agency, authorizing
24 the competitive sale of Florida Housing Finance
25 Agency Housing Revenue Bonds.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
November 18, 1997
14
1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'll move
2 Items 3(A), (B), (C), and (D), with a note that
3 they are all competitive, and know that we're
4 not going to be seeing these items very much
5 longer on the Cabinet now that they're moving
6 out from under.
7 But it's really great to see, I think, that
8 the Cabinet took a strong position and we're
9 starting to see more of these competitive bids.
10 And hope that that will continue, even as it
11 moves out from under the realm of the Florida
12 Cabinet.
13 Thank you.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a second.
16 Without objection, it's passed.
17 That's good.
18 MR. WALTZ: Item number 4 is a report of an
19 award of a hundred and forty-three million four
20 hundred and ninety thousand dollar
21 Tampa-Hillsborough County Expressway Authority
22 Revenue Bonds --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 MR. WALTZ: -- series 1997.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
November 18, 1997
15
1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and second.
3 Without objection, it's approved.
4 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
5 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Veterans' Affairs.
2 MR. RAINWATER: Good morning, Governor,
3 members of the Cabinet.
4 It's our privilege to appear before you
5 once again on behalf of the Department of
6 Veterans' Affairs. We have two issues on our
7 agenda this morning.
8 Number 1, we request the acceptance and
9 approval of our quarterly report for quarter one
10 of fiscal 97-98.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, that's approved.
15 MR. RAINWATER: Thank you.
16 The second item on our agenda is to present
17 the Florida Department of Veterans' Affairs'
18 recommendations for siting of our third
19 Florida State Veterans nursing home.
20 First of all, it has been asked by some
21 parties why the Department of Veterans' Affairs
22 is in the business of providing nursing home
23 care.
24 First of all, our largest segment of
25 veterans population in Florida are World War II
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 veterans, and their average age is now in excess
2 of seventy-five years. That population is in
3 need of nursing care.
4 Second of all, the establishment and the
5 operation of State nursing homes by the
6 Department of Veterans' Affairs, in fact, saves
7 the State Federal -- save the State general
8 revenue outlays.
9 For those two reasons, we are much in the
10 business of establishing State veterans nursing
11 homes.
12 On August 12th, '97, you approved the site
13 selection criteria for our next nursing home. I
14 appointed a site selection committee headed by
15 our general counsel, Ron Frankel, who is with me
16 here today.
17 The criteria and invitations to submit
18 offers were sent to all Florida counties on
19 August 13th, '97.
20 Six governmental entities from throughout
21 the state submitted proposals. We got proposals
22 from the City of Crestview in Okaloosa County,
23 the City of Bonifay in Holmes County, the City
24 of Madison in Madison County, Broward County,
25 Lee County, and Charlotte County.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 As I reported to you in my previous request
2 to approve our last nursing home, every one of
3 these jurisdictions, every one of these
4 locations, is in need of a veterans nursing
5 home. But our job here is to present to you the
6 area most suitable for the one nursing home that
7 we have funded -- or that we are seeking funding
8 for at this time.
9 In addition to the availability and
10 suitability of the site, veterans population,
11 and the availability of VA treatment facilities,
12 the committee asked the applicants to inform us
13 as to the availability of nursing home beds now
14 existing in those particular jurisdictions. And
15 it was an interesting outcome to that request.
16 Proposed sites were all visited by our
17 selection committee, and on November 3rd, 1997,
18 the committee met in public session and
19 objectively scored the proposals and submissions
20 under the approved criteria.
21 The scoring results resulted in the
22 following rankings: Number 1, Broward County;
23 number 2, Madison; number 3, Charlotte County;
24 number 4, Lee County; number 5, Crestview;
25 number 6, Bonifay.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 As a result of this process, the Department
2 of Veterans' Affairs recommends the 15.6 acre
3 site at the South Florida Mental Health Facility
4 in Pembroke Pines, Broward County, as a site for
5 Florida's third State veterans nursing home.
6 And we request approval for that. And at
7 this time, I would like to present
8 Senator Howard Forman, who has some remarks he
9 would like to make.
10 SENATOR FORMAN: Thank you very much,
11 Carlos.
12 Governor, Cabinet, ladies and gentlemen,
13 this is a very fine moment for those of us who
14 are fighting for the welfare of veterans
15 everywhere.
16 I know that over the period of years, there
17 were several veterans nursing homes were placed
18 in different parts of the state. This year the
19 site of the South Florida State Hospital on the
20 grounds in Pembroke Pines, Florida, has come out
21 number 1. It has wide support all over south
22 Florida.
23 I have a letter here from Alex Penelas,
24 Mayor of Dade County; to the Mayor, Alex Fekete
25 of Pembroke Pines, expressing support; Senator
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 Ron Klein has a letter here of support; plus
2 every member of the -- just about every member
3 of the Broward County legislative delegation;
4 and countless others.
5 The south Florida area, with the South
6 Florida State Hospital site as its nexus, has
7 about over 385,000 veterans living in it. It'll
8 be a facility that will be used and will help
9 many people in need of the kind of healthcare
10 that people deserve, especially those that gave
11 their lives for their -- or put their lives on
12 the line for their country. And we really
13 appreciate your support.
14 Thank you very much.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
16 Senator, I seem to remember you being up
17 here before.
18 SENATOR FORMAN: Yes, I have.
19 You know, and then -- but, you know, like I
20 said, this is a long process. I was here last
21 year. Pasco County got it last year, and I
22 understand they're going to have a very fine
23 facility there. And -- and --
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: And you think a little
25 bit more of the site selection this time than
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 you do the last --
2 SENATOR FORMAN: Oh, much more, Governor.
3 I think this year they were right on --
4 they were right on the spot, right on target.
5 We want to thank Carlos Rainwater, Ron Frankel,
6 and the entire staff.
7 And we appreciate -- we appreciate your
8 help, too.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, move
11 approval --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- of the Broward site.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
16 seconded.
17 Without objection, the Broward site is
18 selected.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can we name
20 it after the Senator now, Governor, or do we
21 have to wait?
22 SENATOR FORMAN: Well, I'm not a veteran,
23 really. I've always fought for the veterans.
24 But maybe naming it after somebody who was a
25 veteran would be more appropriate.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 I'll think of something else for me,
2 General. Thank you very much. It's a nice
3 thought though.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
5 SENATOR FORMAN: Thank you.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Carlos, I had a wonderful
7 letter that somebody sent me, and I don't have
8 the name now of one of your people -- one of our
9 people that worked for you, and the service that
10 he was giving to a veteran in Bay Pines
11 I believe it was.
12 I've passed the letter on to you, it'll be
13 in your correspondence, I think.
14 MR. RAINWATER: All right, sir.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Very, very complimentary
16 of this individual above and beyond how
17 competent he was, how courteous he was, how well
18 he treated everybody. And this fellow was an
19 old State employee, had been before, been around
20 a long time.
21 But he was -- he just said that he couldn't
22 have been pleased more. We read a lot of the
23 problems that take place in some of the veterans
24 homes -- hospitals.
25 I just wanted to tell you, this was a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS
November 18, 1997
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1 wonderful letter to receive, delighted to see
2 that your people -- he was very complimentary of
3 you for having people like that.
4 But I hope you'll express my personal
5 appreciation to this -- this fellow, and
6 thank you very much.
7 MR. RAINWATER: I certainly will,
8 Governor. And I thank you very much.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
10 MR. RAINWATER: Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Uh-hum.
12 (The Department of Veterans' Affairs Agenda
13 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 18, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
2 MR. FUCHS: Good morning.
3 Item 1 is a request for approval of the
4 minutes of the November 4th, 19--
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 MR. FUCHS: --97 meeting.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, they're approved.
10 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is a request for
11 approval of proposed amendments to Rule
12 Chapter 12D-7, 12D-8, 12D-13, 12D-16, 12D-18,
13 12D-51, and 12-9, Florida Administrative Code.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, that's approved.
19 MR. FUCHS: Item 3 is a request for
20 approval in concept of two additional child
21 support enforcement proposals to be submitted to
22 the 1998 Legislature.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 18, 1997
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1 Without objection, that's approved.
2 MR. FUCHS: And Item 4 is request for
3 approval and authority to enter into contracts
4 with Lockhead Martin IMS and Maximus,
5 Incorporated, to provide child support
6 enforcement services for a backlog of public
7 assistance cases.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, that's approved.
12 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
14 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
15 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 18, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Education.
2 DR. BEDFORD: Governor Chiles, Commissioner
3 Brogan, members of the State Board of Education,
4 good morning.
5 Item 1, minutes of the meetings held
6 September 25th and October 9th, 1997.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 They're approved.
11 DR. BEDFORD: Item 2, Federal Loan
12 Application Servicing Contract Amendment, we
13 request deferral.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move deferral.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
17 Without objection, it's deferred.
18 DR. BEDFORD: Item 3, the authorization of
19 the competitive sale and delivery of bonds we
20 request to be withdrawn till the next meeting.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move withdrawal.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's withdrawn.
25 DR. BEDFORD: Item 4 is the repeal of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 18, 1997
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1 rules. There are nine rules. I'm just going to
2 read the numbers, if that's permissible:
3 6A-20.005, 6A-20.006, 6A-20.008, 6A-20.010,
4 6A-20.011, 6A-20.014, 6A-0-- excuse me --
5 6A-20.015, 6A-20.022, and 6A-20.034.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, they're approved.
10 DR. BEDFORD: Item 5 is an amendment, State
11 University System, Rule 6C-7.002, Fee Assessment
12 and Remittance.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, that's approved.
17 DR. BEDFORD: Item 6, appointment to the
18 District Board of Trustees, Florida Community
19 College at Jacksonville; Earlene T. Lockett to a
20 term that expires May 31st, the year 2001; and
21 Jimmie L. Mayo to a term that expires May 31st,
22 1998.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the
24 appointments, Governor.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 DR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
5 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
6 concluded.)
7 *
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1 DR. BRADLEY: Good morning.
2 Item number 1, recommend approval of the
3 minutes for the meeting held November 4th, 1997.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, we'd like to
9 defer this to the next Commission meeting.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move deferral.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's deferred.
14 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend
15 approval of the restoration of general revenue
16 appropriations for the Department of Children
17 and Families.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, that's approved.
22 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 4, recommend
23 approval of the transfer of general revenue
24 appropriations for the Department of
25 Corrections.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 5, recommend
6 approval of the transfer of fixed capital outlay
7 appropriations for the Department of
8 Environmental Protection.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 6, recommend
14 approval of Items A., B., C., D., and E. for the
15 Justice Administration Commission.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, that's approved.
20 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 7, recommend
21 approval of the transfer of general revenue
22 appropriations for the Department of Legal
23 Affairs.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 8, recommend
4 approval of the transfer of general revenue
5 appropriations to the Department of State.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, that's approved.
10 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 9 is a request to
11 authoriz-- for authorization to enter the second
12 amended draft final order.
13 We have some people available for questions
14 if you would like. But they -- they have waived
15 their interest in speaking if -- unless you have
16 questions.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'll move
18 approval of staff recommendation to enter a
19 draft final order.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 10 is request
24 authorization to enter the amended draft final
25 order.
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1 And in this instance, we do have several
2 people who want to speak. We've given them each
3 5 minutes per speaker.
4 The first person is Sally Brokken, a --
5 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
6 DR. BRADLEY: -- resident of
7 Sunshine Ranches.
8 MS. BROKKEN: Good morning, Governor --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
10 MS. BROKKEN: -- and Cabinet members.
11 My name is Sally Brokken, and I'm here
12 today on behalf of Sunshine Ranches Homeowners
13 Association.
14 I have been a member of the Broward County
15 Planning Council for the last six years. So
16 I believe that I am familiar with the Growth
17 Management Act, and certainly the policies --
18 the growth policies and objectives of the
19 Comprehensive Plan in Broward.
20 But today, what I am here for is to explain
21 a little bit about our area and why we feel it's
22 so important.
23 I grew up on a farm in Ohio, about
24 238 acres. And I have lived in Sunshine Ranches
25 for 21 years. I also have eight brothers and
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1 sisters, and we were the hired hands on that
2 farm. All the people around us had the same
3 kind of big farms.
4 Well, in Broward County, as many of
5 you know, it's got 1.3 million people. And with
6 that, it only has available one-third of its
7 land to use. So we're quite compact.
8 So what is rural to me in Ohio, and what
9 may be rural to you here in Tallahassee are two
10 different things when it comes to
11 Broward County.
12 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
13 MS. BROKKEN: Broward County and the State
14 of Florida has asked that -- you have actually
15 mandated that we identify, preserve, and protect
16 those rural areas of each county.
17 Broward County has done so.
18 Sunshine Ranches was the first designated rural
19 area in Broward County. Right now, our rural is
20 considered one per two-and-a-half acres; or in
21 some cases, one per one. And many of you may
22 not find that too rural, but we certainly do in
23 an urban county.
24 Today I have a map, and I'm just going to
25 briefly -- I think I have about a minute. -- so
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1 I'm going to briefly explain to you the concerns
2 that the residents where I live have.
3 This is Sunshine Ranches. It is 4 square
4 miles. If the map were bigger -- you can see a
5 little bit -- the delineation of the areas on
6 the west of it and the areas on the east of it.
7 You have 5 acre homes -- one -- 1 acre -- five
8 units an acre on one side, as opposed to one per
9 two-and-a-half.
10 Only this northern portion right here in
11 Sunshine Ranches is allocated one home per
12 1 acre, although many of those residents have
13 even more than that.
14 What they're concerned is, and it's a very
15 easy concern, is that once this amendment, this
16 proposed amendment, of 3.8 acres of
17 commercial -- I mean, it is called, to me, spot
18 zoning where you just go, oh, let's put a little
19 piece of commercial here.
20 But that little piece of commercial is
21 right here. Right here. We have no commercial
22 in this 4 square miles. None.
23 The Broward County Commission, along with
24 trying to preserve this area back in 1989,
25 Cooper City at that time had asked for about
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1 40 acres commercial on our side of the road we
2 call it.
3 And in -- and at that time they said, no.
4 However, at that time, they also put in a
5 development called Country Glen. And it was
6 originally supposed to be three units an acre.
7 It was pared down to two units an acre, and
8 there were some heavy restrictions put on that
9 land. And I will show you where that is.
10 (Indicating.)
11 It is approximately 235 acres, and it's
12 called low 2 designation, two homes per
13 1 acre -- or -- yes, two homes per 1 acre.
14 What they have done to us and the impact to
15 the surrounding areas, which is us, is put heavy
16 restrictions on that land. They can only come
17 in through one entrance, and that's
18 Flamingo Road. They have lighting restrictions
19 for the outside activities in Sunshine Ranches,
20 which is basically horses, nurseries, cows,
21 chickens, and so forth.
22 But within that 4 square miles, there's
23 only -- we have over 2,000 horses. It's a big
24 horse country. But you'll see people riding on
25 the roads constantly mornings and evenings.
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1 But at any rate, what the Commission did to
2 this piece of land that was part of Cooper City
3 is they had a tremendous setback of over -- the
4 lakes were over 100 feet wide on its part that
5 touched the ranches. There were two tiers of
6 1-acre home sites that were buffering the
7 ranches on its western and southern perimeter.
8 On the north, they had heavy restrictions
9 on buffering so that they would not interfere
10 with Sunshine Ranches. And as I said, there's
11 only one way in and one way out. They have no
12 way to get within Sunshine Ranches to use the
13 roads.
14 Now we have a -- you're being asked to
15 approve a small commercial amendment up on the
16 top. Right below the small, teeny commercial
17 parcel is 16 acres, which is vacant, which is
18 part of Cooper City. The residents are very
19 concerned that that 16 acres will also fall.
20 And as you know, once one area is
21 commercial, there's usually not a real good
22 reason to say no once you've already put one
23 in. And that is a major concern.
24 We have another major concern, and that is
25 compatibility. Cooper City is called the City
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1 of Walls, and they want to put a wall up with an
2 EMS station in the middle to buffer us. We
3 don't believe that that is enough. It is not
4 enough of a buffer.
5 We have no walls in Sunshine Ranches, and
6 basically we have restrictions on the
7 Country Glen home site with lighting. So we
8 have nothing like that in there, and we're
9 afraid it's going to lead to more of the same in
10 our area.
11 Today we are asking you if you would please
12 find it out of compliance on a more substantial
13 grounds than the Administrative Law Judge found.
14 Thank you for your time and your patience.
15 Thank you.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
17 DR. BRADLEY: Thank you.
18 Next we'll hear from Richard Grosso, who's
19 representing the Sunshine Ranchers Homeowners
20 Association, and others.
21 MR. GROSSO: Thank you very much. Good
22 morning, Governor Chiles, members of the
23 Cabinet. I'm Richard Grosso of the
24 Environmental and Land Use Law Center down in
25 Fort Lauderdale.
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1 What Sally is telling you is that they
2 don't make neighborhoods like Sunshine Ranches
3 anymore. This neighborhood was carved out
4 30 years ago, has defended itself for 30 years
5 against commercial intrusions, against high
6 density residential intrusions. Broward County
7 has protected them very specially.
8 Now this piece of land was annexed by the
9 City. They don't live in the city, they live in
10 the county, and this City has attempted to put
11 the first ever commercial intrusion on this side
12 of Flamingo Road.
13 We are here to support what your staff is
14 telling you to do today. Your staff has very
15 appropriately understood this case, and reversed
16 the real critical conclusions of law, and found
17 this amendment out of compliance.
18 We realize it is our role as the local
19 citizens to take the step that your staff is
20 perhaps uncomfortable taking, to ask you to go
21 the extra mile. Even though you're finding the
22 amendment out of compliance on a procedural,
23 technical ground, our folks from
24 Sunshine Ranches are asking you, as the
25 Administration Commission, to tell the City of
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1 Cooper City, when it has policies in its plan
2 that say make compatibility of neighborhoods the
3 primary issue in land use amendments, you need
4 to listen to that, Cooper City.
5 So we're asking you to go the extra mile to
6 tell them, if they are to reconsider this
7 amendment, or similar amendments, that they
8 would give the full weight of -- that the law
9 gives to the compatibility issue.
10 We have asked for two specific amendments
11 to the draft order that would do that, one that
12 would tell them -- give great heed to the
13 compatibility issue. And the second one is to
14 give real critical analysis.
15 When you're going to try to intrude into an
16 existing neighborhood with a commercial land
17 use, have done a very good job of analyzing,
18 that you really do need additional commercial
19 lands in your city. That would be the impact of
20 the two amendments that we have floated.
21 We think it is important for the Governor
22 and Cabinet to help -- to begin to develop the
23 law of plan amendments because the Growth
24 Management law was written for plans at the
25 beginning to bring them into compliance as a
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1 whole.
2 But it isn't really specific to specific
3 amendment decisions, and that's why it's
4 important that you would begin the process of
5 establishing the statewide policy on
6 Comprehensive Plan Amendments, so that special
7 neighborhoods, like Sunshine Ranches, are truly
8 protected as we go about the process of meeting
9 the growth projections and the growth demands in
10 the State of Florida.
11 That is the only difference that we have
12 with your staff. We are asking you, as the
13 local citizens, to give us the protections that
14 we think we deserve.
15 Otherwise, we have great praise for the
16 work that they have done, and we very definitely
17 support the order that they are -- that they are
18 asking you to -- to adopt this morning.
19 I will be happy to answer any questions.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just one
22 quick question.
23 Richard, what you're pretty much saying is
24 that the City itself has a policy which provides
25 as a compatibility of opposed land use, with
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1 existing land uses. And it appears that they're
2 using it only within their own city, but when it
3 affects the unincorporated area right next door,
4 they don't seem to think that that particular
5 policy applies.
6 So you want us to, in essence, remind the
7 City, even though this particular piece of
8 property is surrounded by the unincorporated
9 area on what appears to be three sides, and
10 especially the side you're concerned about, that
11 they really should take your land use in
12 consideration also, and not just their land use.
13 MR. GROSSO: Very definitely --
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
15 MR. GROSSO: -- sir.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That seems
17 reasonable.
18 MR. GROSSO: Thank you very much for your
19 time.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
21 DR. BRADLEY: Finally, I would like to
22 introduce Joan Glickman, who's a resident of
23 Sunshine Ranches, for 5 minutes.
24 MS. GLICKMAN: Good morning members of the
25 Cabinet. I have -- my name is Joan Glickman.
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1 I'm a past president of Sunshine Ranches
2 Homeowners Association. The Association is a
3 voluntary group.
4 Sunshine Ranches is made up of many
5 different kinds of people. While there are some
6 people on big 20-acre spreads with horses, there
7 are also people, such as myself, who like to
8 live around people such as that, but don't
9 really want all the problems and the muckings of
10 the stable.
11 There are also young families in
12 Sunshine Ranches who have invested a lot of
13 money, and are probably quite -- what is
14 called -- I call, house poor.
15 But more important than that, there are a
16 lot of people who live on a senior citizen fixed
17 income. What I'm trying to get at is as I was
18 listening, Sunshine Ranches was almost being
19 portrayed as an elitist community.
20 Well, it is not. It spreads over the whole
21 gamut of income; age; race; and, as I said,
22 agricultural likes and tastes.
23 Cooper City, through a process, has annexed
24 some of our eastern border. And in doing that,
25 they have continually at times tried to make
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1 intrusions.
2 The corner of Griffin and Flamingo that
3 Ms. Brokken showed you is just the last of their
4 many attempts.
5 By denying this on a technical, it reminds
6 me of someone who might be allowed to miss a
7 test; go to class; have the teacher go over the
8 test, give you all of the nuances of the
9 questions, even maybe give you the answer; and
10 then say, well, sit for the test again.
11 I believe that a very strong message has to
12 be sent to Cooper City, and to anyone trying to
13 intrude on this unique area.
14 Your staff has grasped the issue, they have
15 been professional in any dealings that I had
16 with them.
17 So once again, like Mr. Grosso, I am asking
18 that you go one step beyond, and send a message
19 that Cooper City needs to understand that the
20 residents of Sunshine Ranches deserve, and
21 should get, the protection of the Growth
22 Management Act as passed by the Legislature.
23 Again, thank you for your staff, and
24 thank you for your time.
25 DR. BRADLEY: That's all that want to
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1 speak, Governor.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
3 I'd just like to make one small amendment.
4 I'll -- I would like to move that the
5 Commission suggest that the City consider any
6 future amendments to the future land use map in
7 the light of its own policy 1-1-3.
8 And I'll move that as amended.
9 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
11 seconded that the recommendation, as amended, be
12 moved.
13 So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
14 THE CABINET: Aye.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
16 It is so moved as amended.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Looks like
18 Senator Forman's office had a real good success
19 today, Governor, of the --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's two
22 items in a row.
23 TREASURER NELSON: Two for two.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's two
25 for two.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's right.
2 MS. GLICKMAN: Past president,
3 Sunshine Ranches.
4 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
5 concluded.)
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Marine Fisheries.
2 DR. NELSON: Good morning, Governor,
3 members of the Cabinet.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
5 DR. NELSON: Item A are the minutes from
6 June 26, October 9th meetings.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, they're approved.
11 DR. NELSON: Item B are some amendments to
12 blue crab trap specifications.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection --
17 DR. NELSON: Item C are --
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- they're approved.
19 DR. NELSON: -- similar amendments to the
20 stone crab wire trap specifications.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, they're approved.
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1 DR. NELSON: Item D are minor amendments to
2 the king mackerel Gulf fishery harvest quota
3 regulations.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, that's approved.
8 DR. NELSON: Item E are similar adjustments
9 the Gulf -- to the king mackerel Atlantic
10 fishery regulations.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, that's approved.
15 DR. NELSON: Item F are amendments
16 conforming our Spanish mackerel regulations to
17 recent changes in the Federal plan.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, that's approved.
22 DR. NELSON: And Item G are amendments to
23 the amberjack management plan.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, that's approved.
3 DR. NELSON: Item H, amendments to our
4 vermillion snapper management plan.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, that's approved.
9 DR. NELSON: And Item I are amendments
10 conforming the State's management plan for
11 sharks and rays to recent Federal changes.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, that's approved.
16 DR. NELSON: Item J deals with a
17 comprehensive review of the Commission's and
18 local -- Commission's rules and local laws
19 dealing with spearfishing, gigging, bow hunting
20 of fishes.
21 And we have one speaker who'd like to
22 address you all on this issue,
23 Mr. Robert Harris.
24 MR. HARRIS: Good morning, Governor --
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
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1 MR. HARRIS: -- members of the Cabinet. My
2 name is Bob Harris. I'm an attorney here in
3 Tallahassee, and I represent the Professional
4 Association of Diving Instructors. We have
5 appeared before the Cabinet before on a number
6 of issues.
7 PADI, as you may know, is the largest scuba
8 diving organization in the world, 6 million
9 recreational scuba divers are here in Florida;
10 30,000 new divers each year; with over
11 300 retail facilities in the state of Florida,
12 out of which diving -- scuba diving occurs.
13 And as you know, Florida remains today as
14 the number one scuba diving tourist destination
15 in the world, due to its number of divers, and
16 its beautiful resources such as the Keys.
17 We have an objection to the Commission's
18 rules because they make a distinction for the
19 scuba diving community and the angling community
20 which we think is unfair. Let me explain that.
21 About a year ago, the Commission decided to
22 review its rules regarding spearfishing, which
23 is a sport many in the diving community enjoy.
24 And when they looked at the rule, we were
25 encouraged at first, because we thought they may
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1 remove the distinctions between the hook and
2 line angling community and spearfishing.
3 There are today over 28 species which are
4 prohibited from being speared by scuba divers,
5 but are completely open to the angling
6 community, and no real reason for that
7 distinction whatsoever, other than the fact that
8 there are species that are popular, or
9 predominantly taken by the hook and line -- the
10 angling community.
11 When the final report came out by the
12 Commission where they continued the prohibitions
13 of spearing of several fish, 17 what are called
14 game fish, food fish; and 11 ornamental fish,
15 we -- again, we thought they were going to be
16 open, but we -- what we found out was, in fact,
17 they were not. And many of the prohibitions
18 that existed before this comprehensive review
19 continue today.
20 What they have done, and what they have
21 before you is to allow three additional species
22 to be taken by spear: Dolphin, sheepshead, and
23 king mackerel, but to continue the prohibitions
24 on 17 additional species and 11 ornamental
25 species.
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1 Again, we think that's unfair, and the
2 primary reason is because the impact of
3 spearfishing in the state of Florida -- and this
4 comes from national surveys that the same kind
5 of numbers they use -- is less than 1 percent.
6 And we always thought the responsibility of
7 the Commission was to look at a particular
8 species and say, if it's being overfished, we
9 need to put in management plans to make sure
10 it's not overfished in the future.
11 And if you have a particular gear type, in
12 this case, spearfishing, that takes less than
13 1 percent usually across-the-board, somewhere
14 around 6/10 of 1 percent, and there are a couple
15 species where it's -- may get up to 3 percent.
16 But generally it's about 6/10 of 1 percent
17 across-the-board.
18 There's very little reason why the
19 Commission should restrict spearfishing from
20 having access to those particular species, other
21 than -- be very blunt -- the protection of the
22 angling community.
23 Now, when the Commission came out with the
24 report, it used the very same phraseology that
25 it had used before, and which raised our
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1 concern. The recommendation says, no spearing
2 should be allowed for several inshore species,
3 including snook, red drum, spotted sea trout,
4 weakfish, several others. And the reason -- the
5 first reason given in their report was this:
6 This is the core group of inshore game
7 fishes which generate high profile angling
8 opportunities in Florida's inshore waters. What
9 they're, in essence, saying is it's a popular
10 fish for the -- for the hook and line people,
11 and, so, therefore, that's the reason why -- not
12 because the species is in danger, or not because
13 the species is -- if you allow it for spearing
14 that somehow it'll be overfished, but because
15 it's popular.
16 What they go on to say: For nearshore and
17 offshore species, African pompano, pompano, and
18 the like. These are primarily game fish species
19 of high value to the angling community.
20 Number one reason given.
21 And, again, our point is, we think that's
22 wrong. We think it's unfair. In many other
23 states, including California, where obviously
24 fishing and diving are very popular, there are
25 no restrictions distincting between the spearing
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1 interest and the hook and line interest, and
2 they get along fine.
3 And the number of fish taken out there are
4 no more than they would be in the state of
5 Florida. Less than 1 percent.
6 If you look in Louisiana, there are no
7 regulations directly related to spearfishing and
8 gigging. Mississippi, there are no regulations
9 directly related to spearfishing and gigging,
10 other than the normal recreational bag and size
11 limits that should apply to everybody,
12 regardless of the type of gear that you use to
13 fish.
14 Alabama, it's the same way.
15 North Carolina, there are no regulations
16 regarding gigging or spearfishing, however, size
17 and bag limits do apply.
18 Again, some states have some species
19 restriction, but for the most part, in some of
20 the coastal states, there are no restrictions,
21 other than those restrictions that the angling
22 community have been able to get into law.
23 So what we would -- what we would hope you
24 would do is this: We object strongly to the
25 distinction between spearing and angling
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1 community. We hope that all of the species
2 would be opened up, because we believe the
3 impact would be very minimal, less than
4 1 percent for spearing.
5 I'll give you an example. In 1996,
6 according to statistics from the National
7 Service, there were taken by the recreational
8 and commercial fishing interest in this state, a
9 total in the amberjack -- just use two
10 examples -- amberjack, 2.6 million pounds of
11 amberjack; for diving, 16,000. That's
12 .061 percent.
13 For grouper, over 11.5 million pounds; for
14 diving, 71,000 pounds, .062 percent. And that's
15 the way it is generally across-the-board. There
16 is not the impact.
17 And if you open particular species up to --
18 to diving, it's not going to be any more of an
19 impact; in fact, it'll probably be less, because
20 there are just some species that spearfishermen
21 will not shoot.
22 The last thing I'll provide to you, and --
23 is this: What you're going to hear from the
24 Commission staff is that there's a catch and
25 release management tool that they use, and that
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1 they encourage catch and release for the angling
2 community.
3 And what we've told them is this: If you
4 want to require catch and release -- in other
5 words, if a particular species is endangered and
6 you want to require that that fish be caught and
7 released as a management tool, then, fine,
8 because we can't catch and release a speared
9 fish, we'll go along with that, and spearing
10 should be prohibited.
11 But they haven't done that. All they've
12 done is encourage catch and release for species,
13 and not require it. But you're going to hear
14 them talk about that.
15 There are actually no species that are
16 prohibited from being taken by the angling
17 community. But there are, again, 28 by the
18 spearing community.
19 The spearing community would pay this very
20 same license fees, would be subject to the same
21 bag and size limits and any other restrictions.
22 For example, one of the things you may hear
23 about is snook. It's very popular to the
24 angling community. And what they've told us is,
25 well, you know, there are a couple months out of
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1 the year that the snook are very dormant, and,
2 therefore, would be subject to being shot very
3 easily. Well, that's fine.
4 The same restrictions that apply in terms
5 of closed seasons for snook should apply to the
6 spearing interest. But today, instead of
7 applying those same restrictions to the spearing
8 community, they just prohibit it altogether and
9 don't allow any spearers to take snook. Again,
10 the purpose being primarily, in our opinion, to
11 protect the angling community.
12 The last thing I'll provide to you is a
13 letter that I received from a gentleman who was
14 just asking a very basic question about why this
15 distinction between spearing and the angling
16 community existed.
17 He asked this question, and he asked that I
18 read this to you. I ask you: What is so wrong
19 with a resident of the state of Florida being
20 afforded the same privilege as any other
21 licensed spearer.
22 Why must you discriminate -- meaning the
23 Commission -- against a person who chooses a
24 different method to take any fish within legal
25 limits?
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1 And, frankly, I don't have an answer for
2 him under this proposed rule.
3 What I would ask you to do today is to
4 defer this rule and direct the Commission staff
5 to work with us to eliminate any distinctions,
6 unless there are resource based decisions. In
7 other words, a fisher-- a particular species is
8 in danger, and there needs to be increased
9 restrictions. Then we would -- then we would
10 agree with those.
11 The second thing I'll ask you to do is pass
12 the rule as is, because it would provide three
13 additional species. But direct the Commission,
14 and Commission staff, over the next 90 days, to
15 work with us on all the other species, and come
16 up with resource based reasons as to why
17 spearing would not be allowed.
18 And I say that as an option because what
19 we've been basically told by the Commission is
20 this: If you don't like the rule as it's
21 proposed, then we'll just withdraw it and take
22 those three additional species you're going to
23 get under this rule off the table. I don't
24 think that's right. I don't think that's the
25 way a Commission should operate. I don't think
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1 that's fair.
2 But unfortunately we're in that situation.
3 So if the rule is passed as it is, the only
4 thing that can get the Commission to work with
5 us is a direction from the Cabinet to say, sit
6 down, work with those people, come up with
7 resource based decisions on the remaining
8 species that are -- presently would still be
9 prohibited under this rule.
10 We'd ask you to do that, and I'll be more
11 than happy to answer any questions you may have.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Questions?
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, not of
14 Mr. Harris, Bob, thank you. But Russell.
15 The three species that have been added to
16 the spearing change are Spanish mackerel,
17 king mackerel, and dolphin?
18 DR. NELSON: And flounder. Part of the --
19 and sheepshead. One of the reasons we tried to
20 do -- go through this was in some instances,
21 because of -- well, for whatever reasons, in the
22 case of flounder, it had been legal to gig a
23 flounder, but not to spear it. In the case of
24 sheepshead, it'd been legal to spear it but not
25 to gig it.
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1 We tried to just lump everything into --
2 regardless of the implement, if you're taking in
3 this fashion. But, yes, dolphin fish,
4 Spanish mackerel, king mackerel, and then in the
5 case of sheep-- flounder, you could spear it.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Has there been done
7 any stock impact studies relative to the
8 addition -- or the potential addition of
9 spearfishing against all of the other species
10 currently allowable under hook and line?
11 DR. NELSON: A stock impact study? Against
12 all the other species? No. I would disagree
13 with Mr. Harris on a number of points. But we
14 have not necessarily looked at a stock impact
15 study of all those species.
16 Many of the species -- most of the species
17 which we did not permit spearing are controlled
18 by size limits, very strictly, by very low bag
19 limits, and the Commission feels is a reasonable
20 and rationalable approach, which is to encourage
21 the use of catch and release fishing.
22 There are fish that are overfished, that
23 should recover, but we really don't think that
24 in the future we're ever going to have enough of
25 them to satisfy a fishery which is primarily
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1 directed at filling up a cooler and feeding
2 people. Things like snook, permit, spotted
3 sea trout, red drum are -- as we grow, as more
4 people come into the state and we have more
5 anglers, are going to be fished, are going to be
6 taken in very small numbers.
7 And the optimum use, the optimum
8 opportunities for most people of the state to
9 utilize these resources, the Commission feels,
10 is in a very minimal allowed harvest, and a
11 maximum encouragement -- and it is that. We
12 don't, for many species, require catch and
13 release -- and encouragement of catch and
14 release fishing.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, I understand
16 the impact that good conservation habits have
17 had on our marine fisheries. Clearly, having
18 fished in marine waters off and in the state of
19 Florida for over 20 years, I saw the worst of
20 times when fisheries were sadly all but depleted
21 for not only commercial, but for recreation; and
22 now they're coming back, many of those stores,
23 in good numbers.
24 So I clearly am a person who appreciates
25 the use of good conservation practices. But I'm
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1 just trying to get my arms around this issue:
2 If, for example, spearfishing is expanded to add
3 king mackerel, Spanish mackerel, both, I think,
4 species that have come back in good --
5 DR. NELSON: They're no longer --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- number.
7 DR. NELSON: -- overfished, yes, sir.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Dolphin, certainly
9 everyone still thinks there's plenty of
10 dolphin.
11 I can't catch one to save my life,
12 Governor. Maybe that's my problem. But I do
13 think I've seen less dolphin over time.
14 I'm trying to figure out if, in fact, good
15 conservation practices and bag limits could be
16 employed with spearfishing, why we can't look at
17 the whole issue of stock impact and what that
18 spearfishing, with those bag limits, could
19 potentially do to the other species of fish.
20 And I understand the whole issue of catch
21 and release, and nobody can guarantee that
22 somebody's going to catch; and if they're lucky,
23 too, nobody can guarantee they're going to
24 release.
25 Nobody can guarantee anyone is going to
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1 spear, but I do understand that once speared,
2 release is all but impossible.
3 Isn't it possible to look at the other
4 species relative to one issue, and that is stock
5 impact, and determine the potential impact, even
6 by using conceptual bag limitations on those
7 additional species, what possibilities there
8 might be for other species of fish and how that
9 might impact their -- that particular species?
10 I'm going to approve the rule today.
11 Clearly, it's a good thing to add those three
12 species of fish. And I think it would be
13 counterproductive not to pass the rule.
14 But I think having done that, my concern is
15 the Commission may just say, there, case closed,
16 and I think it's an issue that ought to be
17 looked at.
18 I'm not a spearfisherman, I am a hook and
19 line fisherman. But clearly I think it's an
20 issue of fairness and equity.
21 DR. NELSON: Well, before I respond, let me
22 say, I looked at my horoscope this morning. And
23 it said, you may well offend a higher-up through
24 an inadvertent remark. So I've been hoping I
25 had received no questions today.
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1 Commissioner, I understand this issue, and
2 there is largely a philosophical component in
3 it. There -- the Commission, in reviewing these
4 regulations, held a number of hearings -- many
5 hearings around the state to hear from all the
6 users of these resources on what they thought
7 the appropriate uses would be.
8 You've heard from Mr. Harris today. I can
9 tell you that during the course of these rules,
10 we heard from many people who thought the
11 spearfishers had an inherit disadvantage, and
12 should not be allowed to compete with
13 recreational anglers for many other species.
14 Some said any species where there's a size
15 limit, since it's difficult to gauge sizes under
16 water, there should be no spearing allowed.
17 Some argued that if you are to allow
18 spearing, why not make it in this -- in the most
19 sporting sense, a sport, and do some other
20 jurisdictions to require that it be done while
21 free diving, in the absence of scuba.
22 The Commission -- there are a number of
23 gray areas: Tripletail, perhaps; African
24 pompano that the Commission had to make a
25 judgment and decide whether they felt it should
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1 be in one area or another.
2 And I personally, you know -- I can't
3 really defend it or not defend it. I mean,
4 there were judgments. They listened to
5 everyone, and they listened to Mr. Harris, and
6 they tried to make judgments.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand.
8 Is it not though possible, without making
9 any preconceived decisions about what ought to
10 be speared or not speared, wouldn't it be at
11 least interesting to find out in conceptual form
12 what potential impact the addition of
13 spearfishing with some bag limitations might
14 have on stock in store, just to further the
15 discussion, if nothing else?
16 DR. NELSON: Well, I certainly will bring
17 that back to the Commission in December. We are
18 in a cycle now where we try to set up in
19 December the workload for the coming year.
20 And I will certainly relay your concerns,
21 Commissioner Brogan, to the Commission. And
22 Mr. Harris is certainly welcome to come again,
23 and ask us to revisit this issue.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, it has the
25 potential, it seemed to me, of being a rather
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1 simple mathematical equation. If there are X
2 number of spearfishermen calculated in the state
3 of Florida in any given year -- and I trust that
4 number is written down somewhere, at least an
5 estimate -- and based on that number, with the
6 addition of each species and conceptual bag
7 limitation for each of those species, it would
8 appear to me rather simple mathematics to
9 determine ultimately what impact the addition of
10 spearfishing could have on other species of
11 fish.
12 Because I do believe in bag limits, and --
13 DR. NELSON: Uh-hum.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and --
15 DR. NELSON: Well, that -- it is, sir. And
16 that would be an exercise of simple mathematics,
17 and we'd be glad to perform it.
18 There are though -- I've found in these
19 issues, of what is and what is not right in the
20 ethics of sportsmanship and hunting and fishing,
21 a lot of external vagaries in the way that many
22 of the people in the state view those
23 activities. So I'm --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Understood.
25 DR. NELSON: -- I'm just -- I'm unsure you
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1 understand the -- that there are --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I was about to say --
3 DR. NELSON: But I will --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- limit is very
5 similar. And --
6 DR. NELSON: Absolutely. I will take your
7 remarks back to the Commission. And --
8 certainly will.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Would you please
10 bring back the feelings of the Commission,
11 either they have chosen not to take up the
12 issue, or they have chosen to at least provide
13 some look at the issue for further discussion.
14 And at least let this member of the group know
15 what their response was so that --
16 DR. NELSON: Absolutely.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- we continue the
18 dialogue?
19 DR. NELSON: Absolutely.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, sir.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other questions?
22 TREASURER NELSON: And, Governor, I would
23 just ask in that information, if you would --
24 when you come back with the information, please
25 give us an idea behind those judgments that
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1 you're talking about.
2 Was there a statistical basis, what staff
3 studies were there to support those judgments.
4 Because basically you've -- you've got anglers
5 being treated different from spearfishermen here
6 in -- in some 24 varieties of fish.
7 By the way, how many varieties, by adding
8 these four, would that be for spearfishermen to
9 be able to spear?
10 DR. NELSON: I can't -- well, I can try to
11 give you an estimate. There are all the
12 snappers and grouper species are allowable for
13 spearing; there are 10, 13, 18, or 19 of those
14 species taken in Florida. The amberjacks,
15 there's three species there; and the
16 king mackerel, Spanish mackerel -- 23, 36 --
17 grunts, porgies.
18 Frankly, all the species that are commonly
19 speared in Florida and have historically been
20 commonly speared are allowed. But I could get
21 back to you with an absolute number.
22 I'm trying to run it through my head, and
23 it's on the order of thirty or thirty-some.
24 And let me say though that Mr. Harris said
25 that there are no species which are off limits
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1 to anglers, and that is absolutely incorrect.
2 There are several species of fish, Jewfish,
3 Nassau grouper, which are off limits to all
4 harvesters.
5 In fact, one of the arguments for placing
6 Jewfish off limits was that their value as an
7 attraction, because they grow so large and live
8 so long, it's so difficult to manage them -- any
9 level of fishing mortality -- the argument that
10 we heard from PADI back then when they asked
11 us -- supported our taking it off limits, was
12 their value as an attraction on reefs and other
13 places to get tourists and divers to come just
14 to watch them, far outweighed their value as
15 being harvested.
16 But there -- and also have the tropical
17 ornamental fishes, damsel fishes, Queen angels,
18 gray angel fish, all those fishes are off limits
19 to all anglers as well.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Any other questions?
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I will --
22 based on the caveats, I think that
23 Commissioner Nelson and I laid out -- move the
24 item as recommended by staff.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
2 seconded.
3 Without objection, it's agreed to.
4 Could I ask you just one question?
5 TREASURER NELSON: Show one objection,
6 Governor.
7 DR. NELSON: Certainly.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
9 TREASURER NELSON: My objection.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: With one objection.
11 All right.
12 Would you just explain to me why
13 spearfishermen would want to spear an ornamental
14 fish?
15 DR. NELSON: I don't know.
16 MR. HARRIS: Let me see --
17 DR. NELSON: I'm sorry.
18 MR. HARRIS: -- if I can answer that. I
19 apologize.
20 Governor, the -- if the 11 that are set out
21 in the rule, the 11 species of ornamental fish,
22 we would not want to spear those.
23 In fact, you will find in most states,
24 including California where the diving community
25 has existed the longest, the reason why those
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1 rules prohibiting the taking of ornamental fish,
2 either by hook and line, or spearing, exist is
3 because of the diving community.
4 So, no, we would not support, under any
5 circumstances, the taking or spearing of the
6 ornamental fish. They're there, because
7 probably 90 percent of the divers that go down,
8 go there to look and see, as we talked about
9 with --
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: I just thought you
11 said --
12 MR. HARRIS: No.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- you wanted them
14 removed.
15 MR. HARRIS: No, no. No, no. We're
16 talking about above the list there's 28 in the
17 list that they would prohibit. I mean, I'm not
18 talking -- I'm talking about species, not
19 subspecies, but species.
20 There's 28. Eleven of those are ornamental
21 fish. We would not want to do that. That's not
22 within our -- it's the 17, the game or food
23 fish --
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: I see.
25 MR. HARRIS: -- however you want to call
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1 them.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you. I just
3 misunderstood that. Thanks.
4 Thank you, sir.
5 DR. NELSON: Thank you.
6 (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
7 concluded.)
8 *
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1 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Trustees of the Internal
3 Improvement Trust Fund.
4 MR. GREEN: Item 1, minutes of the
5 October 9th, 1997, Cabinet meeting.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, they're approved.
10 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 2 is request
11 not to assert a claim of ownership of certain
12 sovereign lands.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, they're approved.
17 MR. GREEN: Item 3, application for a
18 disclaimer of sovereign submerged lands.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, they're approved.
23 MR. GREEN: Item 4, consideration of bids
24 for surplus lands and acceptance of bids.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, that's approved.
4 MR. GREEN: Item 5, purchase agreement to
5 acquire 88 acres in Belle Meade CARL project.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, that's approved.
10 MR. GREEN: Item 6, option agreement to
11 acquire 640 acres within Belle Meade.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, that's approved.
17 MR. GREEN: Item 7, option agreement to
18 acquire .6 acres within the North Peninsula
19 project.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, that's approved.
25 MR. GREEN: Item 8, option agreement to
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1 acquire 36 acres in the Charlotte Harbor project
2 and a waiver of survey.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
6 Without objection, that's approved.
7 MR. GREEN: Item 9, an option agreement to
8 acquire 10 acres in the Wekiva-Ocala Greenway.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MR. GREEN: Item 10, option agreement to
14 acquire 5 acres in the South Savannas CARL
15 project.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. GREEN: Item 11, option agreement to
21 acquire 4.7 acres in Rookery Bay.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, that's approved.
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1 MR. GREEN: Item 12, two option agreements
2 to acquire 20 acres in the Cayo Costa, and
3 waiver of survey.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 13 is
9 authorization to encumber specific parcels of
10 State-owned lands as conditioned for receipt of
11 Federal grant money.
12 Governor, in the way of explanation on
13 this -- I think I've been asked to give a brief
14 statement on what this actually does.
15 As a part of application for grants to the
16 Federal government, some of those grants require
17 that the use of those -- when you use those
18 grants, that you encumber the land with -- with
19 some provisions that would require that you seek
20 Federal approval before you grant leases across
21 those lands, or to change the character of the
22 lands and the uses, may require as much as the
23 repayment of the grant fee to the Federal
24 government if we decided to change the position
25 and the management of those lands over time.
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1 This has happened over a series of years,
2 and we -- we plan to come back to you later with
3 a request to delegate authority to the
4 Department to look at these issues.
5 But what you have before you today
6 specifically are three items where we have
7 grants that are pending that we need to make a
8 decision on immediately and -- that would
9 encumber those lands.
10 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
11 MR. GREEN: Some of the things we want to
12 do as part of the delegation is come back and
13 make sure that where we have leased lands to a
14 local government or to another -- another State
15 entity, that they're responsible for the
16 management of those lands, and the compliance
17 with the Federal conditions that are placed on
18 those lands.
19 And if we find that we need to change the
20 nature of the management of -- on those lands,
21 that those parties would be responsible for any
22 obligations that may appear to the land, based
23 on the granting of the Federal grant.
24 That's -- that's the explanation.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MR. GREEN: Item 14, acquisition grant with
6 Southwest Florida Water Management District.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, that's approved.
11 MR. GREEN: That completes the agenda.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
13 MR. GREEN: Yes, sir.
14 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
15 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
16 *
17 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
18 11:27 a.m.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
78
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 77 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 29TH day of NOVEMBER, 1997.
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19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
850/878-2221
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.