Cabinet
Affairs |
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2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
7 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
8 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
9 TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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11 The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Secretary Sandra B. Mortham
12 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
13 March 25, 1997, commencing at approximately 9:33 a.m.
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16 Reported by:
17 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
18 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
19 the State of Florida at Large
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
904/878-2221
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 BOB CRAWFORD
Commissioner of Agriculture
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BOB MILLIGAN
5 Comptroller
6 SANDRA B. MORTHAM
Secretary of State
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BOB BUTTERWORTH
8 Attorney General
9 BILL NELSON
Treasurer
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FRANK T. BROGAN
11 Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 25, 1997
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Barbara L. Jarriel, CFA,
4 Chief Investment Officer)
5 1 Approved 6
2 Approved 7
6 3 Approved 7
4 Approved 7
7 5 Approved 8
6 Approved 8
8 7 Approved 9
8 Approved 11
9 9 Approved 12
10 Approved 13
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
11 (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
Director)
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1 Approved 15
13 2 Approved 15
3 Approved 16
14 4(a), (b),
(c), and (d) Approved 16
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DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
16 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 18
18 2 Approved 18
3 Approved 18
19 4 Approved 21
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 25, 1997
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Robert L. Bedford, Ph.D.,
4 Deputy Commissioner)
5 1 Approved 91
2 Approved 183
6 3 Approved 252
4 Approved 125
7 5 Approved 126, 131
6 Approved 127
8 7 Approved 127
8 Approved 128
9 9 Withdrawn 132
10 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Gale Sittig,
11 Deputy Director)
12 1 Postponed
2 Postponed
13 3 Postponed
4 Postponed
14 5 Postponed
Discussion 28
15 6 Approved 22
7 Approved 28
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
17 ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
(Presented by Gale Sittig,
18 Deputy Secretary)
19 1 Approved 31
2 Approved 69
20 3 Approved 76
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
March 25, 1997
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
4 TRUST FUND:
(Presented by Kirby B. Green, III,
5 Assistant Secretary)
6 1 Approved 40
2 Approved 40
7 Substitute 3 Approved 40
Substitute 4 Approved 40
8 5 Approved 41
6 Approved 38
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10 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 254
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:06 a.m.)
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. I'm going to
4 turn the meeting over to General Milligan for
5 the State Board of Administration.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: We are without
7 Mr. Herndon this morning, I see.
8 Barbara.
9 MS. JARRIEL: We are.
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: But good to see
11 you.
12 And Item 1, the minutes?
13 MS. JARRIEL: Item 1 is approval of the
14 minutes of the meeting held on February 25th,
15 1997.
16 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second it.
18 Without dissent, approved.
19 MS. JARRIEL: Second item is a
20 recommendation to approve fiscal sufficiency in
21 an amount not to exceed 15 million dollars,
22 Florida Housing Finance Agency Housing Revenue
23 Bonds, Mar Lago Village Project.
24 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
7
1 Without dissent, approved.
2 MS. JARRIEL: Item 3, also a recommendation
3 to approve fiscal sufficiency not to exceed
4 fifteen million six hundred and forty thousand
5 dollars, Florida Housing Finance Agency Housing
6 Revenue Bonds, Riverfront Apartments Project.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
9 And without dissent, approved.
10 MS. JARRIEL: Item number 4 is a
11 recommendation to approve fiscal sufficiency of
12 one or more series in an aggregate amount not to
13 exceed two hundred and two million dollars,
14 Florida Housing Finance Agency Homeowner
15 Mortgage Revenue Bonds, Series 1 through 4; and
16 if so determined, additional series to be
17 subsequently designated.
18 TREASURER NELSON: I move that we accept
19 the item.
20 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Seconded.
21 And without dissent, approved.
22 MS. JARRIEL: Item number 5, a
23 recommendation to approve fiscal sufficiency in
24 an amount not to exceed nine million nine
25 hundred thousand dollars, the Florida Housing
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 Finance Agency Housing Revenue Bonds, and not to
2 exceed one million dollars, Florida Housing
3 Finance Agency, Taxable Housing Revenue Bonds,
4 projects Cedars of Baymeadows and Eagles Point
5 North.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
8 Without dissent, approved.
9 MS. JARRIEL: Item number 6, recommendation
10 to approve fiscal sufficiency not to exceed
11 three hundred million dollars, State of Florida,
12 Department of Environmental Protection,
13 Preservation 2000 Revenue Bonds.
14 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Question.
16 Is that three hundred million, or --
17 MS. JARRIEL: That is correct.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Three hundred
19 million?
20 Seconded.
21 Without dissent, approved.
22 MS. JARRIEL: The seventh item is an
23 interest rate exception. The Riverwood
24 Community Development District has submitted a
25 request to issue bonds at an interest rate not
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 to exceed eight-and-a-half percent, for an
2 aggregate amount not to exceed twelve million
3 nine hundred and eighty thousand. These are
4 special assessment revenue refunding bonds,
5 Series A and B.
6 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And seconded.
8 Without exception, approved.
9 MS. JARRIEL: Item number 8 relates to a
10 request to change the benchmark, and
11 subsequently the investment plan for the Florida
12 Retirement System.
13 General Milligan has asked me to make a few
14 preparatory remarks with regard to this issue in
15 the interest of disclosure.
16 High yield bonds currently represent about
17 20 percent of the total corporate debt market.
18 The most attractive feature of these securities
19 is their diversification impact on an entire
20 portfolio.
21 Since the correlations are very low, they
22 can be added to the fixed income portfolio, and
23 add diversification not only in that portfolio,
24 but in the aggregate.
25 We would expect to be able to add them to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 enhance return, while at the same time, actually
2 reducing the volatility of the portfolio.
3 That's the advantage of low correlating assets.
4 Our proposal is to invest 5 percent of the
5 fixed income portfolio, which is approximately
6 1.3 percent of the total fund. This is
7 essentially a market weight in the securities.
8 We will not be including emerging market
9 debt, which has dramatically different risk
10 return characteristics, nor would we include any
11 distress securities which would be those
12 securities rated lower than double B or
13 single B.
14 Our research to make this recommendation to
15 you included an analysis by our general
16 consultant, Ennis, Knupp & Associates out of
17 Chicago; independent research done by our
18 internal chief economist staff, which is
19 delegated by the Executive Director to staff our
20 asset allocation process; and last week, we
21 presented these recommendations, which were for
22 a market weight, to our Investment Advisory
23 Council, who unanimously recommended that we
24 move forward.
25 So having provided that information, we
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
11
1 would like to request approval to change the
2 total fund investment plan, which revises the
3 benchmark for fixed income to reflect the
4 addition of high yield bonds to the portfolio.
5 TREASURER NELSON: And I would move it,
6 Mr. Chairman.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
8 I second it.
9 And I appreciate very much the
10 clarification as to the risk, and what
11 restrictions you are placing on those --
12 MS. JARRIEL: Thank you very much.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- particular
14 investments.
15 Without dissent, approved.
16 MS. JARRIEL: Number 9 is a request to
17 accept the investment performance and fund
18 balance analyses for the month of February 1997.
19 TREASURER NELSON: And I move it.
20 And I look at this that's rounded
21 eighty billion five hundred million.
22 MS. JARRIEL: That is correct.
23 TREASURER NELSON: Are we still the eighth
24 largest pension fund in America, or have we
25 moved up?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 MS. JARRIEL: We're probably moving up.
2 I think we're number six now.
3 TREASURER NELSON: Number six. My goodness
4 gracious.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second the
6 acceptance.
7 And I also would like to compliment you on
8 a job well-done.
9 Thank you.
10 MS. JARRIEL: Thank you very much.
11 Having concluded the regular business of
12 the SBA, we would like to ask the Trustees in
13 their capacities as Directors to hold a Board of
14 Directors meeting of the Inland Protection
15 Financing Corporation.
16 At this time, I'd like to call up
17 Virginia Wetherell as Secretary of DEP.
18 And if there is a representative of the
19 Black Business Investment Board here, if they
20 could likewise come forward.
21 Is Virginia Wetherell here today?
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: In the absence of
23 the Governor, I will call the meeting to order,
24 and we do have a quorum.
25 MS. JARRIEL: Thank you very much.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
13
1 At this time, we would like to take the
2 opportunity to disclose to the Board members
3 that we submitted RFP -- that RFPs were
4 submitted by eleven firms to serve as bond
5 disclosure counsel for the Inland Protection
6 Financing Corporation.
7 An RFP review team was asked to look at
8 these, and to rank them based on various
9 characteristics. We would like to let you know
10 that our selection based on that analysis is the
11 firm of Greenberg, Traurig, Hoffman.
12 At this time, General, we'd like to request
13 that you direct the Secretary to set this action
14 into the minutes of the meeting.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: If you would,
16 please, Secretary, make those a matter of
17 record.
18 MS. JARRIEL: There being no further
19 business, we ask for a motion and second to
20 adjourn the meeting.
21 TREASURER NELSON: And I move it.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And seconded.
23 Without dissent, approved.
24 MS. JARRIEL: Thank you very much.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
March 25, 1997
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1 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
2 was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
March 25, 1997
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. Division of
2 Bond Finance.
3 MR. WATKINS: Item number 1 is approval of
4 the minutes of the March 11th meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, approved.
9 MR. WATKINS: Item number 2 is a resolution
10 authorizing the competitive sale of $300 million
11 in bonds for the Preservation 2000 program.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
15 Without objection, approved.
16 MR. WATKINS: Item number 3 is a report on
17 the sale of eighteen million four hundred twenty
18 thousand University of Central Florida Housing
19 Bonds.
20 The bonds were sold at competitive sale and
21 awarded to the low bidder at an interest rate of
22 approximately five-and-a-half percent.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And seconded.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
March 25, 1997
16
1 Without objection, approved.
2 MR. WATKINS: Item number 4 is a -- are
3 resolutions requested by the Florida
4 Housing Finance Agency authorizing the
5 negotiated sale of three multifamily housing
6 revenue bonds, and part negotiated/part
7 competitive sale of bonds for the single family
8 housing program.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary Mortham,
10 I'll move Items 4(a), (b), (c), and (d).
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, approved.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Madam Secretary, if
15 we can make a comment.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Certainly.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Again, appreciate
18 the fact that the Florida Housing Finance Agency
19 is, in fact, moving toward more looks at
20 competitive negoti-- as opposed to negotiated.
21 So that's excellent.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Very good.
23 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
March 25, 1997
17
1 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
2 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
March 25, 1997
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Revenue.
2 MR. FUCHS: Good morning.
3 Item 1 is a request for approval of the
4 minutes of the February 11th meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the minutes.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, approved.
9 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is request for approval
10 of and authority to enter into a contract with
11 AT&T, and a contract with Baca, Stein, White and
12 Associates for electronic data interchange.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, approved.
17 MR. FUCHS: Item 3 is request permission to
18 adopt a proposed final order in the case of
19 Camden Corporation versus DOR in order to take
20 final agency action.
21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Seconded.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, approved.
25 MR. FUCHS: And Item 4 is re-- a request
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
March 25, 1997
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1 that you accept our report on mail order sales
2 that was asked for in a Cabinet meeting some
3 weeks ago. The report, I believe, speaks for
4 itself. But there have been some new
5 developments.
6 I went to a meeting in Washington on
7 Thursday and Friday of last week, and this
8 subject came up, as it inevitably does.
9 In December -- there are three items
10 actually.
11 In December, the Federal Trade Commission
12 turned down a request from a number of states to
13 take up the issue of mail order sales as a
14 failure to disclose to consumers their
15 obligation to pay use tax.
16 The FTC determined that there was no direct
17 harm to the consumers, but any harm would be to
18 the -- to the states and the taxpayers, and
19 turned down the request.
20 Just recently, the National Governors
21 Association reaffirmed its commitment to the
22 states' efforts to get mail order sales
23 companies to -- to either negotiate, or the
24 states pursue Congressional action to force them
25 to collect state taxes.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
March 25, 1997
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1 But most significantly, there has been a
2 submission to Congress of a bill sponsored by,
3 I believe, it's Senator Wyden and
4 Representative Cox, known as the Wyden-Cox Bill,
5 that would preclude the states from collecting
6 tax on electronic commerce that occurs over the
7 Internet.
8 That is a measure that would have
9 substantial financial impact for the State of
10 Florida in that while it ostensibly stops new
11 taxes on the Internet, it would restrict the
12 states to the collection of tax, just as they
13 collect tax currently for mail order sales,
14 which is a reverse way of saying no tax, because
15 currently we can't collect tax on mail order
16 sales. That's the nature of the report that
17 I've given to you.
18 It is a moratorium without an end. And as
19 we all know, the ability to take away an
20 exemption is problematic at best.
21 And as I've written to you on a number of
22 occasions in the past, I would not ask for
23 action today, but ask you to consider, in
24 accepting this report, the possibility of
25 contacting our Congressional delegations, and
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
March 25, 1997
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1 expressing our opinion in regard to the impact
2 this bill would have on the finances of the
3 State of Florida.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Has that been moved?
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, accept the report.
9 MR. FUCHS: Thank you very much.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
11 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
12 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: We're going to go to
2 the Administration Commission.
3 And Items 1 through 5 will not be heard,
4 because it requires the Governor's vote. So
5 I believe we'll go straight to Items 6 and 7.
6 MS. SITTIG: Request -- Item 6, request
7 acceptance of the Department of
8 Community Affairs' recommendation, and extend
9 the area of Critical State Concern designation
10 for the Florida Keys area for another year.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, approved.
15 MS. SITTIG: Item 7, request authorization
16 to enter the amended draft final order. We have
17 some individuals who would like to speak on
18 this, as well as a few citizens.
19 What we have asked is that each side be
20 limited to 10 minutes. And then at the end,
21 we'll have the citizens come up. We've asked
22 that they limit their comments to 1 to
23 2 minutes.
24 Beginning would be Richard Moore, and --
25 representing St. George Plantation Homeowners
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 Association; and Tom Adams, homeowner.
2 MR. MOORE: Good morning Honorable members
3 of the Cabinet. My name is Richard Moore, for
4 the record, and I represent the St. George
5 Plantation Owners Association.
6 The Owners Association strongly endorses
7 the recommendation of the staff that the
8 Administration Commission issue the draft final
9 order which adopts the recommended order of the
10 Administrative Law Judge finding that this small
11 scale land use amendment for the resort village
12 project to be invalid because it includes a use
13 greater than 10 acres, and small scale
14 amendments can only be used for developments
15 less than 10 acres.
16 I would urge that the Administration
17 Commission also adopt paragraph 28 of the
18 recommended order, which is stricken under the
19 draft final order. All paragraph 28 does is to
20 recognize in 1995 that FLAWAC -- the 1995 FLAWAC
21 order resolves the issue of vested rights for
22 this development.
23 There was no adjudication at the hearing,
24 it was more of a -- in the line of a judicial
25 recognition of the earlier 1995 order. I would
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 urge that this paragraph be retained.
2 I would like to, at this point, to reserve
3 my remaining time, if I may, to respond to any
4 criticisms of this draft final order that other
5 individuals may make -- may make, if that's
6 appropriate from the Cabinet members to do that.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: It's appropriate.
8 Does anyone have questions?
9 MR. MOORE: And I will answer questions,
10 too, now or then.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Next speaker.
14 MR. ADAMS: My name is Tom Adams.
15 I'm merely here to affirm and request that
16 you enter the adopted order. This is something
17 that we brought before the County, and asked
18 them to recognize at the time of the hearing
19 that what was being done was inappropriate.
20 We respectfully request that you enter that
21 order.
22 Thank you.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
24 MS. SITTIG: Okay. Representing the -- the
25 other side would be Raymond Williams, Chair of
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 the Franklin County Commission; Alan Pierce,
2 planner for Franklin County; and
3 Dr. Ben Johnson, Intervenor, owner, and
4 developer.
5 MR. PIERCE: Good morning, I'm Alan Pierce,
6 the County planner for Franklin County. And
7 Chairman of the Board, Raymond Williams, is with
8 me this morning, but I'm going to be speaking on
9 behalf of the Board.
10 On March 4th, 1997, the Franklin County
11 Board of County Commissioners held a public
12 hearing to consider amending the
13 Tenth Amendment, as the Governor and Cabinet
14 requested that we do.
15 The Board heard testimony from all sides,
16 and from many members of the public, including
17 Mr. Tom Adams and Mr. Richard Moore.
18 They also heard from Mr. Shaw Stiller, a
19 DCA attorney, who said that while the Department
20 had appealed the Tenth Amendment, the Department
21 was satisfied that their settlement with
22 Mr. Johnson covered all the state and regional
23 issues, and he encouraged the Board to amend the
24 Tenth Amendment by adding specific language that
25 was part of the DCA Johnson settlement
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 agreement.
2 Mr. Stiller added two additional changes he
3 suggested the Board adopt. The Board then heard
4 statements from Mr. Johnson regarding the
5 development, and Mr. Johnson offered two more
6 changes to the Tenth Amendment that had been
7 discussed at some settlement negotiations that I
8 had chaired.
9 The County Attorney, Mr. Alfred Shuler, and
10 myself, both recommended that the Board approve
11 the suggested changes.
12 As I told the Board and the audience in my
13 closing remarks at the public hearing, the Board
14 has an obligation to perform the duties that are
15 expected of local government. And those
16 duties -- excuse me -- and those duties include
17 the approval or denial of development orders and
18 permits.
19 By approving this development in phases,
20 the Board is trying to strike a compromise that
21 may be unappreciated by some of the parties
22 involved in this very bitter controversy.
23 The Board is trying to abide by the
24 development order that was issued in 1977, that
25 granted conceptual approval to commercial
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 development of property now owned by
2 Mr. Johnson. And at the same time, do it in a
3 way that does not relinquish the Board's control
4 over the project.
5 The Board is not asking the Governor and
6 Cabinet to decide what is good for
7 Franklin County. The Board is not asking that
8 an administrative judge rule on what is good for
9 Franklin County. All the Board is asking is
10 that the State provide the Board the best
11 administrative and regulatory assistance that it
12 can, and then support the local government when
13 it makes a very difficult decision, which is
14 based, at least in part, upon the State's own
15 advice.
16 I believe this is what has happened as
17 the Board did approve a revised
18 Tenth Amendment. And I support what the Board
19 has done.
20 I now ask that the Governor and Cabinet
21 support the Board by adopting your own staff's
22 recommendations on the issues related to Resort
23 Village Development.
24 And I'm here to answer any questions.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any questions?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
March 25, 1997
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1 TREASURER NELSON: The specific motion that
2 is in front of us, Madam Secretary, is what?
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I don't think we have a
4 motion yet on the table.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We have a
6 recommendation.
7 MS. SITTIG: I'll read the recommendation.
8 It's requested authorization to enter the
9 amended draft final order.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: A motion would be in
11 order, however.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Motion.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Motion and second.
16 Any discussion?
17 Any objection?
18 Approved unanimously.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
20 Madam Secretary --
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- if I can
23 just refer back to Item number 5 on the
24 Administration Commission agenda, which we're
25 still on, that has to deal with creating a
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1 number of positions in the Tenth Judicial
2 Circuit for the State Attorney in order to
3 handle child support enforcement with a contract
4 with the Department of Revenue.
5 I believe this is going into effect fairly
6 quickly. Of course, it needs the Governor's
7 support to do this.
8 If there's no objection up here,
9 Madam Secretary, I believe I would probably be
10 able to work -- I have a number of reserved
11 positions the Legislature gave me.
12 I may -- if this is a time sensitive thing,
13 I may be able to transfer my positions over to
14 the local State Attorney on a temporary basis so
15 he can fill these.
16 But if there's no objection on the
17 Administration Commission, I will contact the
18 Governor's Office, and see if they wish to go
19 that way until we can take a vote on the issue.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there any
21 objection?
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No formal action
23 required?
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No formal
25 action required of mine, no.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Very good.
2 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
3 concluded.)
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1 MS. SITTIG: Okay. The Florida Land and
2 Water Adjudicatory Commission.
3 Item 1, request approval of the minutes of
4 the March 11, 1997, Commission meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, approved.
10 MS. SITTIG: Item 2, request authorization
11 to enter the draft order of dismissal.
12 We again have some individuals. Each side
13 would like to speak. We've asked that they
14 limit it per side 10 minutes.
15 And we also have a few citizens who would
16 also like to speak 1 to 2 minutes. We would ask
17 that they limit their comments.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I did something that I
19 really shouldn't have done.
20 Is Rep-- okay. Representative Albright is
21 here. He's waiting diligently to go back to the
22 Legislature, and I'd like to request that we
23 take up one other item, since this one looks
24 like it could be a little lengthy.
25 If we could go over to Trustees.
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1 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
2 Commission Agenda was continued.)
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1 MR. GREEN: I believe, Madam Secretary,
2 it's Item number 6 on the Trustees agenda.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: It is. Thank you very
4 much.
5 MR. GREEN: Yes. It's consideration of
6 adoption of Section 18-20.018 of the Florida
7 Administrative Codes that deals with standards
8 for docking facilities in the Lake Weir Aquatic
9 Preserve.
10 And we have two speakers:
11 Representative Albright and Jane Sands.
12 MS. SANDS: Madam Chairman, and members of
13 the Cabinet, my name is Jane Sands.
14 My name is Jane Sands, and I live at
15 Oklawaha, Florida, on Lake Weir. I'm Chairman
16 of the Governmental Affairs for Save Lake Weir
17 organization. We have over 450 members. Our
18 organization is totally behind this change.
19 In 1987, Lake Weir was taken into the
20 aquatic preserve. No -- none of the residents
21 of the lake and members were really aware of
22 what all of the rules of being an aquatic
23 preserve entailed.
24 About a year later, people started trying
25 to build a dock and a boathouse similar to the
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1 ones that we had been used to. These permits
2 were all denied.
3 We -- it was suggested that we get a
4 special act to correct this problem, legislation
5 was proposed, it went through the Senate with a
6 32-nothing approval. And it was stopped in the
7 House under a procedural defect.
8 Then we have tried for eight years to work
9 through DEP to resolve this problem.
10 Finally, through a legislative act now
11 saying that DEP will write special rules for --
12 fresh water aquatic rules, we have a solution at
13 hand for our dilemma.
14 We do hope that you will approve this
15 particular amendment to the rules, because it
16 will allow people to build a covered boat slip
17 and a dock similar to the ones that have been
18 built on the dock -- on the lake before.
19 Ones that we think -- and we hope you will
20 also approve an amendment to this act on
21 Section 6(a) that says the main access dock
22 shall be limited to a maximum width of 5 feet
23 instead of 4 feet.
24 We feel for the safety of children, for
25 older people, that we should have a 5 foot
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1 dock -- width dock. In this act, they have
2 allowed the main access dock for multislip docks
3 to be 6 feet in width.
4 So we think that the private single family
5 dock should have at least a 5 foot width for
6 safety and stability reasons.
7 This has been an eight-year long thing that
8 we have been going through with perseverance and
9 patience in trying to get this done. We've had
10 many public hearings, and over two or
11 three hundred people have turned out for these,
12 and all are in favor of this.
13 We respectfully hope that you will
14 entertain a motion to pass this, as it is with
15 the 6 foot -- the 5 foot wide dock.
16 Thank you very much.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you very much.
18 And thank you for all of your hard work.
19 Representative Albright?
20 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair. And thank you for taking me up. I
22 have important things to vote on upstairs.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I know.
24 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Yes. I know
25 you know that.
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1 I just wanted to make sure you all know for
2 the record that Lake Weir and Lake Jackson are
3 the only aquatic preserve lakes in the state
4 that have a set of regulations on them that are
5 more stringent than all the rest of the
6 thousands of lakes.
7 And this just moves back towards that
8 standard, but none of the -- the -- anything in
9 this moves beyond that standard that's already
10 set for all the rest of the thousands of lakes
11 there.
12 So I think that is very important.
13 The -- there's about 350 docks totally.
14 Ninety percent of the docks were built prior to
15 '88 when the aquatic preserve designation was
16 going on. So that means only 10 percent have
17 been built under the newer standards.
18 So going back to something similar to
19 pre-'88 would just really not even show up on
20 the radar screen, plus the fact that we think
21 that -- our best guesstimate, there are only
22 going to be 20 or 30 docks more built on the
23 lake. The lake is effectively built out from a
24 dock situation.
25 There are very few enclosed boathouses and
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1 screen porches on the lake, but there are a few
2 people that would like to build screen porches,
3 and enclose boathouses on there.
4 As I've told you, there'll only be a few
5 more docks. The rule is silent to that. But it
6 is our intent that Save Lake Weir, and my intent
7 that this would be permittable from the
8 situation because, number one, it's had -- shown
9 to have no environmental degradation, the fact
10 it should be just several at best.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you very much.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Thank you.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Madam Secretary --
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- in the interest
16 of moving this along, I would like to move the
17 item with one amendment.
18 I would amend paragraph 6(a) of the rule to
19 authorize private residential single family main
20 access docks to be constructed to a maximum
21 width of 5 feet.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second the motion.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. It's been moved
24 and seconded.
25 Any discussion?
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1 I just have one quick question.
2 Under the proposed rule, it is silent on
3 the placement of screened areas on terminal
4 platforms and the placement of partial
5 enclosures on the boat shelters.
6 Does this mean they are prohibited? And
7 obviously I don't wish to authorize totally
8 enclosed dwellings. But I do think that
9 screened gazebos absent of any negative impact
10 should, in fact, be approved subject to the
11 environmental impact.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Yes, ma'am.
13 Madam Secretary, we in no way want to have
14 permanent living quarters out there on the
15 lake. But it is our intention to have enclosed
16 boathouses and screened gazebos permitted.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. And is that the
18 way staff sees it, too? Because we want to make
19 sure this is on the record.
20 MR. CRAFT: Yes, ma'am.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. Thank you.
22 With no further discussion, and no
23 objection, passes unanimously.
24 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Thank you.
25 And, Madam Chair, I would be remiss to
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1 not -- to thank you all, and also DEP. They
2 have been absolute marvels through this.
3 And we're going to send Jeremy Craft to the
4 Israeli peace process talks now that he's
5 finished this job. It was of the same
6 magnitude.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you,
8 Representative Albright. And I'm anxious for
9 you to get back to your --
10 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: Yes, I have --
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- your button.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ALBRIGHT: -- things to
13 do --
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Back to work.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: If we could go ahead
16 and finish the Board of Trustees agenda, and
17 going back to Item 1.
18 MR. GREEN: Great.
19 Item 1 is a request to consider an option
20 agreement to acquire 177 acres in the
21 Belle Meade --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move --
23 MR. GREEN: -- CARL Project.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- approval.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, approved.
3 MR. GREEN: Item 2 is a purchase agreement
4 to acquire 82 acres in Belle Meade, and a survey
5 waiver.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, approved.
10 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 3 is acceptance
11 of assignment of a purchase agreement to acquire
12 11 acres in the Lake Wales Ridge Project.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, approved.
17 MR. GREEN: Substitute Item 4 is
18 consideration of an acceptance of an assignment
19 of an option agreement to acquire 40 acres in
20 the Lake Wales Ridge Project.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, approved.
25 MR. GREEN: Item 5 is consideration of an
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1 option agreement to acquire 63 acres in the
2 Dade County Archipelago Project.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move the item.
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And seconded.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Moved and seconded.
6 Without objection, approved.
7 MR. GREEN: Thank you.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
9 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
10 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. We're back to
2 FLAWAC.
3 MS. SITTIG: If we could go back to Item 2
4 again. We had a transposition. The
5 recommendation for Item 2 is request denial of
6 the motions to intervene and take no action on
7 the motion to dismiss.
8 And we do have speakers on both sides of
9 this. We've asked each side to do the
10 10 minutes, and then we have two citizen
11 speakers who would like to do 1 to 2 minutes
12 each.
13 To begin, we've got Richard Moore
14 representing the St. George Plantation
15 Homeowners Association, a petition to intervene;
16 and Tom Adams, homeowner, also petition to
17 intervene.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. And if you would
19 keep track of the time, because our items after
20 this are rather lengthy.
21 MR. MOORE: Honorable members of the
22 Cabinet, good morning once again. And for the
23 record, I am Richard Moore, representative for
24 the St. George Plantation Owners Association.
25 The recommendation of FLAWAC today is to
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1 take no action on the motion to dismiss, and
2 I -- I take it by virtue of that, no action on
3 the DCA Johnson settlement, but to dismiss the
4 motions or petitions to intervene filed by the
5 Owners Association and Tom Adams. The
6 Owners Association believes this decision is
7 wrong for a number of reasons.
8 First, the Administration Commission has
9 found that the small scale land use amendment
10 for this development not to be in compliance
11 with the Franklin County Comprehensive -- not to
12 be in compliance with State statutes.
13 Therefore, it is invalid, and it is now
14 inconsistent with the underlying land use of
15 that development, which is residential.
16 That being so, the Tenth Amendment and
17 the -- the amended Tenth Amendment, which was
18 done on March 4th, are inconsistent with the
19 underlying land use, and inconsistent with that
20 Comprehensive Plan, and should be found invalid
21 also, or at least remanded back down to the
22 County to have to be readopted as part of doing
23 a full scale land use amendment.
24 And I'll get to that real -- a little more
25 in detail in just a second.
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1 But it brings us to the really second issue
2 that we've raised all along. The DCA appeal --
3 the settlement of the DCA appeal does not
4 address the issues that were raised in the DCA
5 appeal to begin with.
6 One of DCA's main -- Department of
7 Community Affairs' main contention was that this
8 was a 14.6 acre development, not a 9.6 acre
9 development.
10 In the settlement agreement, that is now
11 recognized. Everybody now recognizes that this
12 is a 14.6 acre development.
13 Even -- even if you consider that the land
14 use amendment was valid, it was only for 9.6.
15 So there's still an inconsistency with that
16 underlying land use, and should find the
17 Tenth Amendment per se invalid, and at least be
18 remanded down to the County to be readopted with
19 the full scale amendment.
20 Finally, the Owners Association timely
21 raised additional issues in its petition to
22 intervene. We timely filed that petition. We
23 filed that petition five days after DCA filed
24 its Notice of Appeal. And under the statute, we
25 raised additional issues which we were allowed
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1 to do under the statute. And we did that timely
2 also, also within that five-day period.
3 Although the Owners Association has
4 diligently tried to resolve these issues with
5 the developer, and we will continue to try to
6 resolve those issues, we have submitted three
7 proposals to the developer to try to resolve
8 these issues through a limitation on the
9 commercial development density. We will
10 continue to do that.
11 But they have not been resolved, and they
12 ought to be afforded their due litigation before
13 the Department of Administrative Hearings.
14 I will make one last point. If you
15 consider that the Owners Association's challenge
16 to the small scale land use amendment --
17 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
18 MR. MOORE: -- which was just heard by the
19 Administration Commission, in that proceeding,
20 Dr. Johnson, the developer, intervened. We did
21 not object to his intervention, because we
22 realize that he is affected by our action.
23 Yet when the Owners Association attempts to
24 intervene in a proceeding that affects it just
25 as much as that proceeding affected Dr. Johnson,
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1 we're oppos-- our intervention is opposed, and
2 we are cut short of full intervention by this
3 DCA appeal -- or DCA settlement with the
4 developer.
5 I would say in -- in fairness, our
6 petitions to intervene ought to be granted.
7 I think there's only two actions that
8 FLAWAC should take today. One is either to
9 grant the petitions to intervene, and send the
10 DCA appeal down to DOAH; or to find the
11 Tenth Amendment and revised Tenth Amendment
12 invalid based upon the inconsistency with the
13 underlying land use, as found by the
14 Administration Commission.
15 This will do two things: This will ensure
16 the integrity -- this last will ensure the
17 integrity of the growth management process by
18 making the development order be consistent with
19 the Comprehensive Plan by making it go down to
20 the County and be reenacted or readopted by the
21 County.
22 And also it will make the Comprehensive
23 Plan --
24 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
25 MR. MOORE: -- be changed prior to the
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1 adoption of the development order, which is the
2 other -- other kind of cardinal rule in growth
3 management and land use, that you change your
4 land use before you adopt a development order.
5 Once again, this will not delay the project
6 any more than it is already. Franklin County
7 has already moved to rescind the small scale
8 amendment and go through the full scale
9 amendment process.
10 So all this can be done during the time
11 that that full scale amendment process has to go
12 through its course of two public hearings and
13 review by DCA.
14 I would just urge that our motions -- that
15 our motions to intervene be granted and not
16 denied at this point in time.
17 And I'll answer any questions that y'all
18 may have.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any questions?
20 Okay.
21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
23 MR. ADAMS: Tom Adams.
24 I am one of the intervenors. I come to you
25 today as the voice of the public. To be denied
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1 intervention basically silences the public with
2 respect to this issue.
3 I have brought you and the Aides compelling
4 evidence that this area is subject to severe
5 flooding, and the proposed storm water system is
6 not going to work.
7 I urge you not to simply dismiss the public
8 interest and allow our petitions to intervene to
9 go forward.
10 There are other constraining factors, too.
11 They have to do with the Comprehensive Plan.
12 And it's important that all of the documents
13 that were passed on October 3rd be invalidated
14 by the former action that you just took, which
15 was to affirm the hearing officer's order that
16 the -- this is a large scale amendment, not a
17 small scale amendment.
18 The only entry I have as a public
19 participant is through the intervention
20 process. I would urge you not to dismiss that
21 appeal.
22 Thank you.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
24 MS. SITTIG: Okay. The folks to speak on
25 the other side would be Stephanie Kruer, the
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1 General Counsel for DCA; Raymond Williams, Chair
2 of the Franklin County Commission; Alan Pierce,
3 Planner for Franklin County; and
4 Dr. Ben Johnson, owner and developer. They
5 would have 10 minutes in total.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
7 MS. KRUER: Good morning, members of the
8 Commission. I'm Stephanie Kruer, General
9 Counsel for the Department of Community Affairs.
10 In the case before you, Franklin County has
11 approved an amended development order that the
12 Department feels adequately addresses the state
13 and regional issues that were raised in our
14 original appeal of the development order.
15 And at this time, the County is also going
16 forward to repeal the ordinance that adopted the
17 small scale amendment, and instead, adopt a
18 large scale, or full scale amendment to
19 incorporate the entire project parcel.
20 So at this time, the Department feels that
21 the state and regional issues have been
22 addressed by the amended development order
23 that's been approved by the local government.
24 And we'll be watching very closely with
25 Franklin County, and working closely with both
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1 Franklin County and the Department of
2 Environmental Protection, to ensure that the
3 provisions in the amended development order
4 related to the protection of the natural
5 resources on the site are, in fact, followed,
6 and are, in fact, enforced.
7 So at this time, we support the position to
8 not approve the petitions of the intervenors. I
9 will note for you that the intervenors have
10 another right of access to have these issues put
11 in a judicial forum for consideration and
12 ruling.
13 There are other avenues available to, and
14 being used by the intervenors at this time to
15 take advantage of that process so that any
16 additional local issues can be appropriately
17 addressed by the courts.
18 Be glad to answer any questions.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Questions?
20 Okay.
21 MS. KRUER: Thank you.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
23 MR. PIERCE: Again, I'm Alan Pierce,
24 Franklin County Planner, and the Chairman of the
25 Board is here with me.
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1 I don't have any additional things to say.
2 I didn't realize we were going to separate these
3 in two different motions, so I've already spoken
4 for the County what we believe is appropriate.
5 And if you have any questions, I'll be glad
6 to answer them.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you very much.
8 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. I'm Ben Johnson,
9 the owner of the property.
10 I would urge you to adopt the staff
11 recommendation. Each and every one of the
12 concerns raised by the proposed intervenors have
13 been fully resolved to DCA's satisfaction
14 through the stipulation and settlement agreement
15 which we signed, and through the County's
16 revisions to the Tenth Amendment to the 1977
17 development order, which were just recently
18 adopted in a public hearing in Franklin County.
19 DCA made it very clear during that public
20 hearing, and in its pleadings submitted to you,
21 that all of the state and regional issues
22 regarding Phase I of my project have been fully
23 and adequately resolved, and all potential
24 impacts have been adequately mitigated.
25 Likewise, the Franklin County Board of
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1 County Commissioners has made it clear through
2 their actions that the substantive objections to
3 my project have been adequately addressed and
4 resolved to the local government's satisfaction.
5 And I recognize that the Plantation Owners
6 Association and Mr. Adams are asking you to not
7 adopt the staff recommendation, and to instead
8 send me to DOAH, or perhaps remand me back to
9 Franklin County, for a time consuming and costly
10 process in either case; processes which
11 I believe are completely unnecessary and
12 inappropriate under these circumstances.
13 Both the Plantation Owners and Mr. Adams
14 have been very active throughout the nearly
15 two-year process, which culminated in the
16 revised Tenth Amendment, and they have actively
17 participated in all of the various public
18 workshops, public meetings, and public hearings
19 held during this period.
20 And they have repeatedly voiced their
21 concerns and arguments to both the local
22 officials and to the regional and state
23 officials throughout this two-year period.
24 While my opponents may argue that no harm
25 is done by sending my project through yet
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1 another review process, it will result in
2 lengthy delays and unnecessary additional
3 expense for a project that I believe has already
4 been studied to death.
5 If you were to request -- to grant their
6 request, you'll potentially be sending me back
7 to DOAH for what would actually be the fifth or
8 sixth time in a very few years.
9 The Florida Legislature did not give my
10 opponents the right to appeal the
11 Tenth Amendment, nor did the Legislature create
12 a mandatory opportunity for my opponents to
13 intervene into an appeal of this type.
14 Instead, the Legislature recognized that in
15 some cases, the interest of justice can best be
16 served by giving the limited right of appeal to
17 DCA with the expectation that DCA will use sound
18 judgment in determining when enough is enough;
19 and when the state and regional issues have been
20 adequately resolved; and when, therefore, a
21 project should be allowed to move forward.
22 I would ask you to approve the staff
23 recommendation.
24 I'll be happy to answer any questions you
25 may have.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any questions?
2 Thank you.
3 MS. SITTIG: Okay. We have two citizens
4 who would like to speak. We've asked that they
5 limit their comments to no more than 2 minutes
6 per speaker.
7 The first one is Charlie Manos; the second
8 one, Philip Froelick. They are both Homeowner
9 Association Board members.
10 DR. MANOS: Good morning Honorable members
11 of the Commission.
12 My name is Dr. Charlie Manos, and I am a
13 Director on the Board of the Plantation Owners
14 Association.
15 I'm also an environmental chemist with over
16 20 years of experience in the measurement of
17 pollutant transport in the environment. And as
18 an environmental scientist, I have significant
19 concerns about the environmental impact of this
20 proposed development.
21 But I want to assure the Commission that
22 these concerns which are assured by the
23 community are not a knee jerk, not in my
24 backyard reaction against development of any
25 kind.
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1 I have here with me three different
2 proposed settlement agreements, each drafted by
3 the Plantation Owners Association, and each
4 submitted to Ben Johnson, intended to limit
5 environmental impact by providing an appropriate
6 level of development.
7 The fourth POA proposal, presented earlier
8 this month, requests that both parties make use
9 of a professional mediator to facilitate
10 resolution of these issues.
11 We want to assure that appropriate
12 development takes place, and I ask that this
13 Commission not deny the POA's petition to
14 intervene.
15 Thank you.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
17 DR. FROELICK: Good morning. My name is
18 Dr. Phil Froelick. I'm Professor and Chair of
19 the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at
20 Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta. I'm
21 also a homeowner in the St. George Plantation on
22 St. George Island for over six years.
23 Last year I was elected to the Board of
24 Directors of the St. George Plantation, with
25 over 95 percent of the votes as an environmental
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1 scientist to try to provide some expert advice,
2 and to try to help evaluate the environmental
3 impact of the Resort Village.
4 I only became aware of the problems after I
5 learned that Florida DEP had permitted the
6 advanced wastewater treatment plant with
7 subsurface percolation last year.
8 My background is 27 years as an
9 oceanographer and a chemist, on the faculties of
10 Florida State University, Columbia University in
11 New York, and now at Georgia Tech.
12 I've published in scientific journals, many
13 of them about Florida bays and estuaries and
14 rivers on the Gulf Coast.
15 Yesterday we convened a workshop in
16 Apalachicola. I brought together six scientists
17 from the University of South Florida, from
18 Florida State University, and from Georgia Tech;
19 two people from the Northwest Florida
20 Water Management District, to try to evaluate
21 the fresh water balance on St. George Island.
22 The surficial aquifer on that island is
23 the -- is the water into which the storm water
24 run-off and the wastewater treatment will be
25 percolated.
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1 Unfortunately there's not a great deal
2 known about it, but what we did manage to put
3 together by the end of the day is that many of
4 the plans and predictions that are made in the
5 permitting process do have significant flaws,
6 they have technical errors, all of which are
7 related to the ultimate density of development
8 that'll be allowed on a fairly fragile barrier
9 island next to Apalachicola Bay and Nic's Hole,
10 which is the nursery for Apalachicola Bay.
11 I'd be willing to discuss that with any of
12 you or your Aides. I'll be -- take your
13 questions if you wish.
14 But my recommendation is to permit the
15 intervention of POA so we can bring this
16 evidence to light.
17 Thank you.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
19 MS. SITTIG: Okay. I would be glad to read
20 the recomm-- staff recommendation again.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
22 MS. SITTIG: That would be request denial
23 of the motions to intervene, and take no action
24 on the motion to dismiss.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there a motion?
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary, I move
2 staff recommendation.
3 I am sensitive to the issue of the
4 intervenors, and I believe that there are at
5 least two other venues for them to voice their
6 concerns for the record as far as consideration
7 is -- is concerned, that being the Court
8 process, as well as the Comprehensive Plan
9 amendment process.
10 So I would move the staff recommendation.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I second the
12 motion.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: It's been moved and
14 seconded.
15 Is there any discussion?
16 TREASURER NELSON: I just want to make sure
17 that I understand. This is basically
18 authorizing the staff to enter a draft order of
19 dismissal?
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Staff?
21 MS. SITTIG: This is Teresa Tinker with my
22 office.
23 MS. TINKER: No, sir. The amended staff
24 recomm-- that was the original staff
25 recommendation.
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1 The amended staff recommendation before you
2 today is to deny the two motions to intervene --
3 the petitions to intervene, filed by the
4 homeowners association, and Mr. Tom Adams, and
5 not take any action today on DCA's motion to
6 dismiss the case.
7 So the case will remain in a pending state
8 before the Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
9 Commission.
10 TREASURER NELSON: Well, what is the reason
11 for staff wanting to hold this thing in
12 abeyance?
13 MS. TINKER: The County is moving forward
14 at this point to rescind the small scale
15 Comprehensive Plan Amendment that you found --
16 that the Administration Commission just found
17 was not in compliance. They've already taken
18 action to rescind that and to replace it and to
19 fix the land use to be consistent with what
20 they're trying to do in the development order.
21 We believe that the appropriate action
22 today, and recommend to you, that we just keep
23 the FLAWAC case pending, and give the County an
24 opportunity to fix the Comprehensive Plan, and
25 then we can look at the -- the other issue,
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1 you know, how -- depending on how the progress
2 goes with the Comprehensive Plan.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So you're basically
4 saying this will come back before this body.
5 MS. TINKER: It doesn't necessarily have to
6 come back before the body. If the
7 Comprehensive Plan proceeding is going forward,
8 and we believe that the County will adopt that
9 at some point, then the Department of
10 Community Affairs could actually file a
11 voluntary dismissal of their appeal, because
12 they believe their issues have been resolved.
13 If they do that, then the Secretary of
14 FLAWAC could simply dismiss the case, and you
15 would never have to take any further action.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: What is --
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Commissioner --
19 TREASURER NELSON: Why --
20 Madam -- Madam Secretary, may I continue?
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes, you may.
22 TREASURER NELSON: Your staff
23 recommendation was changed at 9:00 o'clock this
24 morning.
25 Can you tell me why the lateness of the
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1 hour?
2 MS. TINKER: Well, what -- what we felt
3 uncomfortable about -- and we've actually not
4 felt comfortable about this all along. So it
5 wasn't a last minute change. I know it appears
6 that way to you.
7 But from a staff perspective, we -- we did
8 not feel comfortable this morning saying to you,
9 go ahead and dismiss this, which means you are
10 virtually approving the development that is
11 inconsistent with the underlying
12 Comprehensive Plan.
13 We did not feel that would be the
14 appropriate position for the Land and Water
15 Commission to take today.
16 So --
17 TREASURER NELSON: Why wouldn't that
18 recommendation at least have surfaced yesterday,
19 as opposed to this morning?
20 MS. TINKER: We actually did talk about it
21 yesterday, sir, and I apologize that it got out
22 so late.
23 This has actually been bounced back and
24 forth for several days now. And we were trying
25 to formulate the strongest position that you
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1 could take.
2 And I do apologize for the lateness of the
3 staff recommendation.
4 TREASURER NELSON: Isn't this case rather
5 unusual in that it keeps coming back and forth
6 to the Cabinet, and back to the County, and back
7 to the Cabinet?
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's a good
9 point.
10 TREASURER NELSON: Can you give us some
11 historical perspective?
12 MS. TINKER: Well, originally the
13 development order was denied by Franklin County,
14 and Mr. Johnson appealed that. And that was the
15 first time you saw it, on a recommended order of
16 denial.
17 And at that point, I believe the decision
18 at this level was to give some deference to the
19 local government and say fix this. You know,
20 clearly Mr. Johnson has some rights to go
21 forward for some level of commercial development
22 based on the 1977 DRI development order.
23 But what you have had in front of you back
24 then wasn't real clear, and it left a lot of
25 questions as to the level of development that
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1 could occur. So you sent it back to the County.
2 At that point, the County tried to fix it.
3 And it also recognized that it needed a
4 Comprehensive Plan amendment to go along with
5 the DRI change.
6 The County, according to the DOAH
7 Hearing Officer, the Administrative Law Judge,
8 interpreted it -- its Comprehensive Plan
9 incorrectly in saying that it was a small scale
10 amendment, and basically processed a small scale
11 planned amendment, which did not include all the
12 land that was necessary for the development.
13 So the County took action to fix its
14 Comprehensive Plan, to make the
15 Comprehensive Plan say what they wanted to do in
16 the development. And they were challenged.
17 The Administrative Law Judge confirmed
18 that, yes, the County had taken the wrong steps
19 in processing the small scale amendment, and has
20 made a recommendation to the
21 Administration Commission, which you have just
22 accepted, to find that small scale plan
23 amendment not in compliance.
24 So now you're left with a plan amendment
25 that's not in compliance, and a development
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1 order that is not consistent with the land use
2 in the Comprehensive Plan.
3 So when we realized that we had that
4 situation, we -- we felt like, well, okay, just
5 go ahead and dismiss the development order
6 because the state and regional issues have been
7 resolved through the DCA, developer, local
8 government negotiations, and settlement
9 agreement.
10 That seemed okay. But the more we looked
11 at it, the more we felt like it was not the
12 correct action for the Governor and Cabinet to
13 be taking.
14 So instead of simply dismissing it today,
15 we -- we just want to suggest that you go ahead
16 and dismiss the -- or not accept the motions to
17 intervene, but hold on to the development order
18 a little while longer, and let's see what
19 happens with the Comprehensive Plan.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
21 Madam Secretary --
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Just one second.
23 Did you still have your question?
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes,
25 Madam Secretary.
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1 I want to get a good clarification of the
2 urgency then of denying the petitions to
3 intervene.
4 Why must we address that today, and not
5 address the other motion?
6 MS. TINKER: You do not have to dismiss
7 those motions to intervene today, or to deny
8 them. They can stay pending as well.
9 The reason we're recommending that they be
10 denied is because we believe that the settlement
11 agreement and the supplement to the
12 Tenth Amendment have addressed all the state and
13 regional issues that need to be looked at
14 through the DRI 380 process.
15 And that the issues that the intervenors
16 have raised have been resolved to the extent
17 that they were state or regional in nature, and
18 the local issues that were raised in those
19 petitions can be addressed through other forums.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary Mortham --
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. We've got
22 General Butterworth, and then
23 Commissioner Brogan.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: As I
25 understand it, the intervenors are not objecting
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1 to your latest recommendation?
2 MS. TINKER: No, I believe the intervenors
3 have objected to the part of the staff
4 recommendation that would deny their petitions
5 to intervene.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can --
7 Mr. Johnson's not objecting, is he?
8 MS. TINKER: Mr. Johnson is not objecting,
9 but he's not the intervenor.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. Now,
11 what about -- I think -- what you're attempting
12 to do, I guess, with your new recommendation is
13 to have Item number 2 and Item number 3
14 basically being the same, the same law, where
15 you would have been inconsistent with your
16 original recommendation if you had not changed
17 it.
18 MS. TINKER: Yes, sir, that's correct.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Commissioner Brogan?
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, ma'am.
21 I just wanted to follow up along the same
22 line of thinking.
23 My understanding was that the reason for
24 denying the intervenor status was, if I
25 understood you correctly, now and prior to the
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1 meeting --
2 MS. TINKER: Uh-hum.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- was based on the
4 fact that intervening at this particular level
5 is no longer necessary based on the fact that --
6 that all of those issues have been rectified at
7 this level.
8 However, intervenor status, based on the
9 desire of the potential intervenors, would still
10 be alive and well at at least possibly two other
11 levels, as I mentioned earlier, where that
12 intervening status would be more appropriately
13 satisfied.
14 Is -- did I --
15 MS. TINKER: Some of --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- understand
17 correctly?
18 MS. TINKER: -- some of their issues that
19 they raised in their appeal have also been
20 raised in other forums, Circuit Court,
21 for example.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So between the --
23 MS. TINKER: And those --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- court system --
25 MS. TINKER: -- would remain --
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the comprehensive
2 plan amendment process, I understood that the
3 intervenor status would be most appropriately
4 housed in those two venues.
5 MS. TINKER: The Comprehensive Plan
6 amendment process that the County's going
7 through right now is an avenue for the inter--
8 for the people who were trying to move to
9 intervene, or anyone else in the County, to
10 participate and have input into the
11 Comprehensive Plan amendment.
12 If they are not pleased with what the
13 County does in terms of the Comprehensive Plan
14 amendment, they do have an opportunity under 163
15 to challenge the County on its adoption of that
16 plan amendment.
17 The plan amendment also, because it's not a
18 small scale amendment, will have to go through
19 the full State review as well, which means the
20 Department of Community Affairs and the other
21 agencies that participate in that state level
22 review, will have an opportunity to review and
23 provide comments, objections, and
24 recommendations to Franklin County on the
25 Comprehensive Plan amendment.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you very much.
2 There's a motion and a second for staff's
3 recommendation.
4 Is there any further discussion?
5 All those in favor, say aye.
6 THE CABINET: Aye.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Those opposed, no.
8 Passes unanimously.
9 Next item.
10 MS. SITTIG: Okay. Item number 3, request
11 authorization to enter the draft final order.
12 Again, we do have some speakers. We are
13 asking that they limit their comments to no more
14 than 10 minutes per side.
15 The first -- the first side would be
16 David Theriaque, representing the Edgewater
17 Beach Homeowners Association.
18 MR. THERIAQUE: Good morning.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Good morning.
20 MR. THERIAQUE: My name is
21 David Theriaque. I represent Edgewater. I'll
22 be brief.
23 We support the staff final order. The
24 parties have spent considerable time meeting
25 with your Aides. We believe that the staff
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1 proposed final order that y'all --
2 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
3 room.)
4 MR. THERIAQUE: -- have accurately reflects
5 our concerns with the Administrative Law Judge's
6 decision. We urge you to adopt the final order
7 proposed by staff.
8 Essentially what the staff final order
9 would do would be to prevent the construction of
10 a 20-story condominium building on the beach in
11 Walton County.
12 And as y'all may recall, this issue was
13 before you in October of 1995 when you allowed
14 the DRI to be revived, and the development that
15 was proposed along the beach were 19 town homes,
16 with two hundred and sixty some odd units up on
17 the back of the property.
18 What you have before you is an amendment to
19 the DRI to change that development pattern to
20 allow a 20-story building -- a building
21 essentially almost as tall as the Capitol -- to
22 be built immediately adjacent to the Coastal
23 Construction Control Line.
24 We believe that the staff's final order
25 that's before you ensures the integrity of
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1 comprehensive planning. The Administrative Law
2 Judge's decision creates an exception to
3 comp planning that only large scale, high dollar
4 developers would be allowed to utilize, whereby
5 the rest of us in the state would have to comply
6 with comprehensive plans; that this loophole
7 should not be created for the large scale
8 developers.
9 In fact, that's probably the instance where
10 comprehensive planning is probably most
11 important.
12 And -- we would urge that we keep the
13 playing field level, that all citizens in the
14 state of Florida have to comply with the
15 Comprehensive Plan.
16 Lastly, if you adopt the proposed order
17 that's been prepared by staff, you are not
18 preventing development on the property. The
19 developer is free to complete the project that
20 y'all approved in October of 1995. And if the
21 developer would like to do something different
22 with its property, they can go back to the
23 County for a plan amendment.
24 So there are options for the developer to
25 proceed.
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1 So we would request that y'all adopt the
2 proposed final order that's been prepared by
3 staff.
4 I'd be happy to answer any questions.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any questions?
6 Thank you very much.
7 MR. THERIAQUE: Thank you.
8 MS. SITTIG: Okay. Representing the other
9 side is Marti Chumbler representing Grand Dunes
10 and KPM.
11 MS. CHUMBLER: Good morning. I'm
12 Marti Chumbler with the Carlton, Fields law
13 firm, and I'm here representing KPM and
14 Grand Dunes.
15 My clients feel, and we feel strongly, that
16 the draft staff -- staff order that's presented
17 represents a very significant change in the
18 policy relating to DRIs in this state.
19 We also feel that it would be inherently
20 unfair in this case to apply this brand new
21 policy to my clients in a way that's different
22 from the way it's ever been applied to other
23 DRIs, and in a way that is dramatically
24 different from the instructions that my clients
25 have been given by both the local government and
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1 by the very highest officials at the Department
2 of Community Affairs.
3 Now, there's some declaratory statements
4 that are cited in the draft order that seem to
5 indicate that back in 1987, '88, '89, there may
6 have been some statements made in those rather
7 large declaratory statements that could be read
8 to mean something different.
9 But there's a specific finding of fact, a
10 finding of fact which is not rejected in the
11 draft order, which says that the consistent
12 policy of the Department has been that when a
13 change is made which is not a substantial
14 change, that there's not a loss of statutory
15 vesting.
16 I believe that if you ask the Department of
17 Community Affairs today, they would stand by the
18 statement found in finding of fact.
19 In fact, what the draft order would do
20 would be to significantly divest my client of
21 statutory rights, of vesting rights.
22 All of the actions -- all of the actions
23 that my client has taken, all of the changes
24 that they have proposed, have been undertaken
25 with the instructions and with the advice of the
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1 local government and of the Department of
2 Community Affairs.
3 We would have not proposed to make any of
4 these changes if we thought we would have lost
5 vested rights to the units that were given to us
6 under the developm-- the DRI.
7 As I said, this order represents a severe
8 slashing of the development rights that have
9 been given to my client previously.
10 Change the policy, if you think it's
11 appropriate, for future developments. But we
12 believe that it is unfair and unjust to apply
13 this new policy to an owner who has relied upon
14 the statements and the promises of government.
15 Thank you.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
17 MS. SITTIG: We did have one other person
18 who was going to be available for questions.
19 But he has asked for about 30 seconds. His name
20 is George Ralph Miller representing
21 Walton County.
22 MR. MILLER: Good morning, Madam Chairman,
23 members of the Cabinet.
24 I represent Walton County as their
25 attorney, and we are here for the support of the
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1 hearing officer's recommendation. We ask that
2 you reject the staff report.
3 We feel like we've followed the rules as we
4 know them, we feel like we did what DCA asked us
5 to do, and we feel like this project was vested,
6 and that they're entitled to go forward as -- as
7 they've tried to do.
8 So we ask that you support the
9 hearing officer's recommendation.
10 Thank you. Be happy to answer any
11 question.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Any questions?
13 Okay.
14 MR. MILLER: Thank you.
15 MS. SITTIG: Okay. We do have
16 Stephanie Kruer with DCA if you all have any
17 questions of her.
18 I could read the recommendation again.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
20 MS. SITTIG: Which is: Request
21 authorization to enter the draft final order.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there a motion?
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move staff
24 recommendation, Madam Secretary.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is there a second?
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1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. It's been moved
3 and seconded to accept the staff
4 recommendation.
5 Is there any discussion?
6 Okay. All those in favor, say aye.
7 THE CABINET: Aye.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Those opposed, no?
9 Passes unanimously.
10 MS. SITTIG: Thank you.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Next item?
12 MS. SITTIG: That's all.
13 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
14 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
15 *
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. I believe we're
2 moving on to the lengthy part of the agenda.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Potentially lengthy --
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Potentially lengthy
5 part of the agenda with the State Board of
6 Education.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, ma'am.
8 Thank you.
9 And in the absence of the Governor, I'll
10 chair this portion of the meeting,
11 Madam Secretary.
12 We're going to ask your indulgence, and see
13 if you will concur to move Items 2 and 3, which
14 are the appeals, to the end of the State Board
15 agenda, hopefully give us a better opportunity
16 to focus on those issues.
17 So with that, I will turn to what is still
18 Item 1 on the State Board agenda.
19 DR. BEDFORD: Commissioner Brogan, members
20 of the State Board of Education, good morning.
21 Item 1, Critical Teacher Shortage Report
22 and Recommendations. I will read into the
23 record the critical shortage areas of
24 exceptional education programs serving students
25 with disabilities, including emotionally
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1 handicapped, mentally handicapped, physically
2 handicapped, speech and language impaired,
3 hearing impaired, visually impaired, specific
4 learning disabled --
5 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
6 room.)
7 DR. BEDFORD: -- and varying
8 exceptionalities, English for Speakers of Other
9 Languages, technology education, and for the
10 tuition reimbursement program endorsement areas,
11 and profoundly handicapped orientation mobility,
12 pre-kindergarten handicapped, and gifted.
13 We do have one speaker that has requested
14 permission to address the group.
15 I believe Pat Tornillo is in the audience
16 to address the group.
17 Pat.
18 MR. TORNILLO: Thank you, Commissioner.
19 Thank you for the opportunity to share with
20 you some statistics on the -- what I consider to
21 be the fate of the teaching profession in
22 Florida. And they're from the reports that
23 Bob Bedford was talking about that you have all
24 been given recently issued by the Department of
25 Education.
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1 If you analyze those reports, it's pretty
2 clear that from the mid '60s through the '70s,
3 and much of the '80s, the teaching profession
4 was an unpopular choice for students in our
5 various colleges and universities.
6 In 65-66, education degrees totaled nearly
7 one quarter of all the degrees awarded by our
8 states, colleges, and universities. By '94 and
9 '95, education degrees awarded was only half
10 that, 13 percent.
11 And while interest in the profession has
12 increased somewhat in more recent years, the
13 data clearly shows that we are still not
14 graduating enough teachers in our colleges and
15 universities to keep up with the tremendous
16 growth and need.
17 Over the last five years, the number of
18 vacancies occurring in teaching positions
19 increased from 5,951 in 1991 --
20 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
21 MR. TORNILLO: -- to 8,292 in 1995.
22 And at the same time, students graduating
23 from Florida's colleges and universities in the
24 field of education averaged only about 5,500.
25 Those were those who graduated, they were not
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1 necessarily those who accepted a teaching
2 position.
3 So we have not kept ground. Florida simply
4 has not produced the number of teachers needed
5 to adequately staff our schools. And our
6 biggest teacher shortages occur in the fields of
7 elementary education, with math and science
8 running close behind.
9 And in 1995 in the field of science,
10 for example, the number of graduates in physics
11 was lower than any year since 1989.
12 Now, the disproportionate number of
13 teachers available unfortunately has led us to
14 place an even more disproportionate number of
15 teachers in out-of-field positions.
16 Out-of-field is a teacher who is not certified
17 in the appropriate field.
18 In 1995, more than 12 percent of the
19 vacancies that I cited were filled by teachers
20 who do not have the appropriate teaching
21 certificate to teach the subject they've been
22 hired to perform.
23 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
24 MR. TORNILLO: That figure is even more
25 lopsided when we get into other critical
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1 shortage areas, such as teaching for the
2 emotionally handicapped, students with learning
3 disabilities, students who are hearing impaired,
4 or those students who are mentally handicapped;
5 and now a new category that has come up on the
6 scene, technology.
7 More than 15 percent of teachers who fill
8 vacancies for teaching the emotionally impaired
9 do not have the proper certificate.
10 I could go on with teachers assigned to
11 teach students with disabilities, et cetera.
12 But the bottom line is from the DOE report
13 entitled Critical Teacher Shortage Areas, as
14 evidenced by the percentage of out-of-field
15 teachers hired, Educational -- ESE programs that
16 includes all of the above are perpetually
17 behind. The number of graduates never seems to
18 catch up with the demand.
19 We're also failing to keep ground with
20 attracting minorities into the profession. In
21 1985, African American children made up
22 23 percent of the public school enrollment, and
23 only 16 percent of the teachers.
24 Ten years later, in the fall of '95, a
25 quarter of the students in Florida's public
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1 school classrooms were African American, and
2 only 14 percent of the teachers were of the same
3 minority.
4 Ladies and gentlemen, the percentage of
5 black teachers is increasing at the same time
6 that the percentage -- of black students is
7 increasing at the same time that the percentage
8 of black teachers is an all-time low.
9 We have an impending teacher shortage in
10 Florida that could reach crisis proportions, and
11 we need to do everything we can to prevent it.
12 At the same time that we're talking about
13 incompetence -- and this is the hot topic in
14 this session of the Legislature -- you need to
15 be aware that every time a teacher who is not
16 certified to teach walks into a classroom in
17 Florida, that is an incompetent teacher teaching
18 children.
19 If you have been certified in social
20 studies, history, and you are assigned three
21 history classes, and then assigned two physics
22 classes, you should be competent in the three
23 history classes, but you are totally incompetent
24 to walk into a physics class and teach those
25 students physics. That's a bigger problem in
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1 Florida than anything else is in terms of
2 qualified teachers in the classroom.
3 I think that what we need to do is look at
4 programs that will entice students to enter the
5 teaching profession beyond those that you and
6 this State Board of Education and
7 Commissioner Brogan have recommended and are in
8 place.
9 I think we need to expand the programs such
10 as the Critical Teacher Shortage Scholarship
11 Loan and the Chappie James Most Promising
12 Teacher Scholarship Loan Program.
13 I think that we need to do something with
14 maybe the lottery dollars. Perhaps we should
15 look at financial incentive programs that can be
16 funded with lottery dollars also.
17 And what about teachers already in the
18 system? Too many of our good teachers leave
19 after a few years because it simply does not pay
20 enough.
21 I think we need to look at financial
22 incentives for those teachers who obtain
23 national certification. That's a win-win for
24 both the teacher and our children.
25 Governor Hunt of North Carolina three weeks
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1 ago recommended to the North Carolina
2 Legislature, one, that they help every teacher
3 in North Carolina who wanted to go through
4 national certification; and, two, if they passed
5 that rigorous program, a 12 percent salary bonus
6 for every teacher in North Carolina who did
7 that. That was a courageous move on his part.
8 It was not exactly met with a lot of enthusiasm
9 on the part of all the stakeholders in
10 education, including the teacher unions.
11 I can only tell you that we need to help
12 our children; we need to help make sure that at
13 some time in the near future, we have a
14 qualified, certified, competent teacher in every
15 classroom in the State of Florida teaching our
16 children, because that is a real -- the real
17 tragedy that's going on now.
18 And our teachers need to be rewarded for
19 making a greater effort, and national board
20 certification might just be the way that we do
21 that.
22 Thank you.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, sir.
24 Any questions?
25 TREASURER NELSON: Yes.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Commissioner Nelson.
2 TREASURER NELSON: Pat, I notice that the
3 figures show that 24 percent of the teachers in
4 the critical areas are teaching out of field;
5 and in all teachers teaching out of field, the
6 percentage is 12 percent.
7 Now, I noticed also in the figures that the
8 SLD teachers, however, in the projected number
9 of graduates, you've got a lot more graduates
10 among SLDs than the projected number of
11 vacancies.
12 So you've got an abundance there, and a
13 shortage every place else. What is it about the
14 SLDs?
15 MR. TORNILLO: I'm not sure that I can
16 answer that question as to why in that one
17 category we -- that's the only one that we have
18 more than we -- and we have a shortage in all
19 the others. It may be that the programs are
20 more rigorous in those areas.
21 Bob.
22 DR. BEDFORD: Martha can answer this.
23 MR. TORNILLO: Martha.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: This is Martha Miller
25 from the Department, lady and gentlemen.
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1 DR. MILLER: Many of those graduates of SLD
2 programs are now hired in a growing field called
3 varying exceptionalities. Particularly the
4 secondary area, many times those children are
5 grouped.
6 And so if you'll look under VE, varying
7 exceptionalities, you'll see that we have many
8 more projections than we do have graduates. Few
9 people graduate in VE, so many of the SLD
10 teachers are going into those fields.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Any other questions?
12 Thank you, sir.
13 MR. TORNILLO: Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: There also have
15 occurred, during the time that Mr. Tornillo was
16 referring to, a couple of anomalies that I think
17 are contributing to the problem as well.
18 What's happened since 1960 in education.
19 Well, one of the problems that we have faced,
20 or -- not problem necessarily -- but one of the
21 issues that we're dealing with is the incredible
22 array of certificates that are now available,
23 and the rather finite restrictions that go along
24 with each. The illusion to the fact that we
25 have teachers who are science teachers teaching
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1 math out of field is accurate.
2 But we also have a significant number of
3 teachers who are teaching in their subject area
4 that are -- simply have stepped across the
5 boundary that the certificate will allow.
6 For example, in middle school, you might
7 teach eighth grade math, but might not in that
8 same middle school be able to, via the
9 certification requirements, teach sixth graders
10 mathematics. And that person might be
11 considered technically to be out of field, but,
12 in fact, may have a better background in
13 mathematics than anyone else on campus.
14 My point, I suppose, is that I think some
15 of the problems that we've created since the
16 '60s are actually manmade in terms of -- of our
17 own certification requirements.
18 Also point out the issue of pay.
19 Mr. Tornillo mentioned that, and I agree. If
20 there is anything to be learned from the private
21 sector, and I think there is, one of the things
22 that the private sector recognized a long time
23 ago is if you can't get people to do a job, then
24 pay them more, and they will come.
25 And I'm convinced that when you look at
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1 these exceptionalities in some of these areas
2 that are -- in my 20 years, I believe considered
3 to be more challenging based on the challenges
4 simply put that the children face, it's tough
5 work. Teaching is tough work, no matter how you
6 do it, or no matter what your field happens to
7 be.
8 But I really believe one of the things that
9 we need to begin to do, not just in Florida, but
10 nationally, is get creative about the way we pay
11 our professional educators, and recognize that
12 if you have an overabundance of elementary
13 school teachers, which is typically the case --
14 I'm an elementary teacher by certification --
15 that, indeed, you have ample opportunities to
16 fill those vacancies with certified, qualified
17 individuals.
18 If you have an area that is tightly
19 parametered in terms of certification, or
20 tightly parametered as far as the skill level,
21 and you can't draw people to that particular
22 profession, while loan forgiveness programs and
23 some of the other enticements that we're making
24 available is attract-- or are attractive to
25 some, I believe that long-term commitment and
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1 long-term reward is even more attractive.
2 My point being that if you want to draw a
3 teacher to a critical teaching shortage area,
4 especially one that is considered to be very
5 tough and very challenging, based on the
6 challenges that the students face, then via the
7 private sector, it would only seem logical that
8 you would want to make it more lucrative for
9 that individual to draw the kind of people that
10 we need to do those jobs.
11 That is not something that we do well in
12 public education. We like to reward people far
13 differently than does the public sector. And by
14 virtue of that fact, I think we're eliminating
15 some great opportunities to reward people for
16 the job that they do. Not performance based,
17 I'm talking about the specific area of
18 certification.
19 I think we're making a dent, but I think
20 the point was made, and it's accurate, that in
21 some of these areas, we're not keeping pace with
22 the growth.
23 Exceptional education is a perfect
24 example. The number of students being
25 identified now as emotionally handicapped or
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1 attention deficit disordered, they're rising at
2 incredible rates.
3 And yet we've already suggested that
4 teachers in those areas face a critical teaching
5 shortage.
6 So I think we've got to start to become
7 more creative, over and above some of the things
8 that we're already doing.
9 I think in terms of minority recruitment,
10 Bob, did I not hear a figure that we were up
11 about 12 percent?
12 Martha?
13 DR. BEDFORD: I don't remember. We are up,
14 but --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So we're making some
16 inroads. And I think we'll continue to do so.
17 But I think we've got to become even bolder
18 about some of the approaches we take.
19 And as I mentioned, also recognize that
20 some of our problems are manmade in terms of
21 certification. We're trying to address some of
22 that through legislation during -- during this
23 session.
24 Any other questions from the members?
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Got a motion and a
2 second.
3 Discussion?
4 Without objection, item passes.
5 We'll move now again to save Items 2 and 3,
6 and move to Item 4.
7 DR. BEDFORD: Item 4 is the assignment of
8 the lease and approval of other agreements, if
9 required, between the State Board of Education;
10 South Florida Public Telecommunications, Inc.,
11 WXEL.
12 Mike Olenick is going to make the
13 initial --
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Commonly referred to
15 as the Louisiana purchase.
16 MR. OLENICK: I'm here to accept the Nobel
17 Peace Prize.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: You're not out of
19 this yet.
20 MR. OLENICK: My name is Mike Olenick
21 representing the State Board.
22 At the risk of boring members of the
23 State Board, I just wanted to briefly again just
24 tell you where -- how we got here.
25 '89, the State Board of Education and
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1 South Florida Public Telecommunication, Inc.,
2 WXEL, entered into a lease agreement for the
3 building which was owned by -- the land was
4 owned by WXEL.
5 Over the years, of course, there have been
6 numerous grants given to WXEL. The lease grants
7 WXEL freedom to assign without approval of this
8 Board, quote, so long as the transferee is
9 another educational or noncommercial
10 broadcasting entity.
11 On February 7th, a merger agreement was
12 executed between WXEL and
13 Barry-Telecommunication, Inc., commonly referred
14 to as Barry-Tel.
15 XEL's position is that XEL and Barry-Tel.
16 have the legal right to execute that merger
17 agreement.
18 On February 17th, the Attorney General's
19 Office and my office sent a letter to XEL asking
20 for information, and also expressing some
21 concern in whether Barry-Tel. was a, quote,
22 educational and noncommercial broadcasting
23 entity.
24 From my perspective, I am not aware of any
25 defaults by XEL in the original lease
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1 agreement. The issue of conten-- there is an
2 issue of contention of whether or not XEL --
3 whether the XEL-Barry assignment needs to come
4 before this State Board.
5 And we being the State -- the attorney for
6 the State Board of Ed, as well as the Attorney
7 General's Office, has taken the position that
8 they need to be here.
9 And I should state that XEL has, at this
10 point, willingly brought itself before you for
11 this assignment.
12 The narrow legal issue, I think, is is
13 Barry-Tel. qualified per the lease as an
14 educational, noncommercial broadcasting entity.
15 The Articles of Incorporation of Barry-Tel.
16 say -- state that it is an educational or
17 noncommercial broadcasting entity.
18 The FCC application would only go to a
19 public broadcasting license, and FCC would
20 ultimately determine whether Barry-Tel. was
21 eligible.
22 The Secretary of State at the last meeting
23 made a motion that something be brought
24 forward. And in light of that, WXEL prepared a
25 three-party agreement, which your Aides have,
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1 and which you all should have.
2 And the highlights of that are as follows:
3 Barry-Tel. would remain community based -- and
4 I'm paraphrasing obviously -- second, that it
5 permits the transfer of the leased assets, which
6 is the issue that I'm -- that I've been
7 addressing; it does have provision that you as
8 Board members in good faith would not challenge
9 the FCC license and merger.
10 There is no further assignment without
11 the Board of Education approval, and that's
12 imperative because that puts us in a position
13 without any contention in the future that we --
14 or you, would not even have an argument if
15 there's a further assignment.
16 They would actively pursue a consortium,
17 they being Barry-Tel. consortium. As you
18 remember, Chancellor Reed discussed this --
19 actively pursue the consortium with the Board of
20 Regents. They would set up a community advisory
21 board, and they would have a public workshop in
22 the Palm Beach area regarding this merger.
23 Subsequent to this, there has been
24 discussion -- there have been some discussion
25 between the Board of Regents; and Sister Jeanne,
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1 President of Barry University. And those
2 discussions were going on all morning.
3 I will be here to answer any questions.
4 It's my understanding that Chancellor Reed would
5 like to address you; and Sister Jeanne, the
6 President of Barry, would like to address you.
7 And at this point, I'll -- unless there's
8 questions, I'll defer to the --
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: First of all, any
10 questions at this point of -- members of the
11 Cabinet, State Board?
12 All right. Want to hear from
13 Chancellor Reed?
14 DR. REED: Madam Chair, members of the
15 State Board, I am pleased to come here this
16 morning to tell you that Sister Jeanne and I
17 have worked out a conceptual agreement to put
18 together a public-private education partnership
19 to be a model that I think this country will be
20 proud of.
21 I can tell you this: I have negotiated
22 with a lot of people in my life, but
23 Sister Jeanne goes to the top. I would put her
24 in the top five draft choices in America to
25 negotiate with.
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1 But I want to thank Sister Jeanne for being
2 such a good negotiator, and I have met my
3 match. But we put together, I think, a
4 conceptual agreement. We worked on it up until
5 about 30 minutes ago. And I want to thank her
6 for that.
7 Number two, I want to thank Mary Souder
8 from WXEL and their attorneys who came up here
9 last night, and were here this morning.
10 I will tell you that it hasn't been easy.
11 We've had a difficult time. Sister Jeanne and I
12 have been on the telephone since you directed us
13 to negotiate. She came yesterday, and we met
14 for 3 hours in my office yesterday afternoon.
15 The proposal that we have, which is the
16 lease agreement that you have before you -- and
17 I believe your Aides, and I hope you all have a
18 copy of this.
19 But my agreement with Sister Jeanne will
20 ask you to strike paragraph 1, and insert a new
21 paragraph 1 which will read: Prior to the
22 transfer of the FCC license, membership in
23 Barry-Tel. will consist of Barry University, and
24 the Board of Regents in proportions to be
25 negotiated by said parties; and -- this is
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1 important -- Barry-Tel. shall maintain
2 WXEL TV-FM as a community-based, independent
3 public broadcasting voice serving the
4 Palm Beach County and Treasure Coast areas with
5 a special commitment to high quality educational
6 programming.
7 And it was specifically the educational
8 mission of the public television station that
9 the university system and Barry University are
10 the most interested in serving the needs of the
11 people in Palm Beach and the Treasure Coast
12 area.
13 With that, I'd like to ask Sister Jeanne to
14 either put some white smoke on this, or bless me
15 for what I have been through the last few weeks.
16 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: -- Charlie --
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Commissioner Brogan --
18 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: -- that he could have
19 general absolution.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me -- let me turn
21 to Secretary Mortham for a question.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Just --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Or a comment.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Quick -- quick question
25 of the Chancellor.
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1 Does the Board of Regents intend to
2 actually put money into this program?
3 DR. REED: The answer is yes. If we don't
4 have any money to put into it, we won't have a
5 partnership.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. So then the
7 proportional negotiated membership would
8 probably be somewhat based on the money issue, I
9 would presume.
10 DR. REED: That, and there's about three or
11 four other matters. But, specifically, yes.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Any other questions
14 or comments for Chancellor Reed?
15 If not, we'll turn to Sister Jeanne.
16 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: I want also to thank
17 the great Charles Reed, the Chancellor. I feel
18 like I've been in an ongoing love-in.
19 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Ugh-oh.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: He is a cuddly
21 rascal, isn't he, Sister?
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Tell us
23 about it, Frank.
24 DR. BEDFORD: Oh, boy.
25 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: It has been a very
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1 important, I believe, journey for both of us.
2 And when I last had the privilege of appearing
3 before you, I was so conscious of your concern
4 for the community good. And that was the
5 commitment we made.
6 And it was through these conversations and
7 dialogue that it became clear that such a
8 proposed partnership would benefit all.
9 I have to say that as I've watched with
10 great reverence what you have been doing, and
11 the intricacies and the care that you have been
12 giving to this community, when I realize the
13 violence and the crimes and the children that
14 are so neglected, and for you to take time in
15 your busy schedules to address this matter and
16 in the good of a community, it really helps me
17 to understand how proud I am to be part of this
18 process.
19 When I understand that justice is denied or
20 justice is served, it comes from you. But it
21 also comes to us when you trust us. And
22 I believe that through the dialogue, we are
23 serving justice for the people of that
24 community.
25 So we thank you very much for your trust in
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1 us, and we sincerely hope to make you very proud
2 of what will come out of our joint efforts.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, I know I speak
4 on behalf of my colleagues when I say that we
5 thank Sister, both you, and Chancellor Reed;
6 Mike Olenick; and all the other parties who
7 worked so hard.
8 And when he said "prior to the meeting,"
9 I think I was still waiting and watching the
10 back door to see if you were going to come
11 through the back door with a resolution to this
12 matter.
13 And I know a lot of hard work went into it,
14 and I believe the public interests will be
15 served, based on the -- the agreement that has
16 been struck.
17 And I would open it to any questions or
18 comments.
19 I believe we have two other speakers.
20 DR. BEDFORD: Marvin Rosen, the attorney
21 for WXEL, has requested to speak.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Mr. Rosen.
23 MR. ROSEN: I waive the right to speak.
24 Thank you.
25 DR. BEDFORD: And Carlos Manrique from
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1 Dade County Public Schools.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Mr. Manrique?
3 MR. MANRIQUE: Thank you very much,
4 Commissioners, Honorable members of the Board.
5 Commissioners, we found out of this issue
6 late in the ball game, and I'd like to apologize
7 for coming in such a late time.
8 But we have been trying to work with all
9 the parties, and with Dade County Public
10 Schools. As you know, we have two fine entities
11 in WLRN TV and radio. That is a big part of our
12 agenda, to educate our kids in Dade County
13 public schools.
14 And we are very concerned, as I understand
15 entering late into this agreement, that the
16 Cabinet has concerns with WPBT and Channel 2
17 entering into this consortium, if we can call
18 it.
19 So we've passed an amendment that I think
20 you have before you, and I would like for each
21 of you to consider that amendment. And that
22 basically says that WPBT will not be part of
23 this consortium.
24 And that is something that Dade County
25 Public Schools can live with. Sister Jeanne and
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1 I, they're in agreement with this amendment;
2 WXEL is in agreement with this amendment.
3 And I've talked to about 100 percent of
4 your Cabinet people, and I haven't found any
5 objections yet. I understand that maybe the
6 Chancellor might have an objection to that,
7 although they are telling me, and Mr. Moyle told
8 me today, we're not going to negotiate with
9 WPBT.
10 So if you're not going to negotiate with
11 them, you shouldn't have problems in putting
12 that into language now. And if you want to
13 change that in the rules later on, they should
14 be able to come before you and say why they want
15 to negotiate with WPBT.
16 I don't know if they have a copy of the
17 amendment up there or not. It's one that's
18 labeled 3(a). And basically I stand before you
19 looking for a sponsor and a second on that.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Sister, let me ask
21 you or Chancellor Reed if either/or both of you
22 would care to comment on the amendment?
23 DR. REED: We both maybe can comment on
24 it. We -- or I -- Sister Jeanne can speak for
25 herself -- don't think that this amendment is
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1 necessary.
2 Frankly, we think it'll just complicate our
3 lives in trying to work out what we have already
4 worked out.
5 Two, if the Dade County Public Schools will
6 accept this -- Sister Jeanne and I talked about
7 this both last night and this morning -- we will
8 not do anything with this public television
9 station to hurt, harm, or damage the Dade County
10 Public School public television station, in any
11 way. We have no intent to do that, we have no
12 intent on competing, and we don't want to do
13 that.
14 And lastly, our attorneys, and maybe Mike
15 or others might want to -- it was my general
16 counsel, and the other legal advice that I've
17 received, said that this is redundant, and that
18 it is not necessary to do this, because it's
19 already in the agreement that you have before
20 you in the transfer of the lease.
21 Sister Jeanne may -- wanted to make a
22 comment.
23 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: I've always been
24 supportive of the Dade County Public Schools,
25 and I understand their concern. But it was my
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1 understanding from the lawyers also that it is
2 redundant, that it -- that we have made the
3 commitment not to transfer or change without the
4 approval of this Board.
5 I have no discomfort in saying that we will
6 not do that, that we would give the management
7 to someone else without the approval of this
8 Board.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay. Let me just
10 ask counsel if that is in keeping with --
11 MR. OLENICK: Yes, sir. I'm comfortable
12 with that. And let me just explain why.
13 The original agreement, which is the basis
14 of this thing, the '89 agreement, says that
15 during the term of the agreement -- and
16 remember, the agreement's being assigned --
17 during the term of this agreement, XEL shall
18 have sole and exclusive control over the use of
19 the capital items. And that's, candidly, our
20 only concern, the capital items.
21 So we have a sole and exclusive control by
22 XEL. If you take that, and then you add the --
23 the amendment which says that XEL with
24 respect -- hereby agrees for itself and
25 successors and assigns that it will not further
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1 assign its rights under the original agreement,
2 or for the transfer of the capital items.
3 So my feeling is that I think it's covered
4 because the original agreement specifically
5 states that the sole and exclusive control shall
6 be XEL's.
7 And I think that the amendment makes it
8 clear that any change in -- in that ownership
9 has to come back to you as a State Board. So I
10 think -- I think they're covered.
11 Thank you.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Further questions?
13 Commissioner?
14 TREASURER NELSON: Does he support the
15 amendment?
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No. I believe I just
17 heard you say that the amendment is not
18 necessary, correct?
19 MR. OLENICK: I'm --
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That you're satisfied
21 with the original --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- amendment?
24 MR. OLENICK: I'm sorry.
25 I think the amendment that's before you
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1 with the five -- the five items is sufficient to
2 take care of their concerns in my view.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The original
4 amendment.
5 MR. OLENICK: The original agreement. That
6 the agreement proposed by the School Board of
7 Dade County, I think, is redundant.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Questions?
9 Secretary?
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. I have a -- I do
11 have a question of Mr. Olenick.
12 If, in fact, it's redundant, is there any
13 reason not to put it in?
14 MR. OLENICK: From my perspective, I -- I
15 personally have no problem with it,
16 Secretary Mortham. But I'm not -- you have two
17 other people, you have XEL, and you have Barry,
18 and you have the State -- the Board of Regents.
19 From my perspective as your attorney, I
20 have no problem.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, I guess my
22 concern is is that I certainly trust all of your
23 opinions, and Sister Jeanne, Chancellor Reed,
24 and you have said that under the current
25 language, Dade County is protected.
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1 So I guess my question is: Is there any
2 problem with adopting the amendment as proposed,
3 because nobody intends to violate it anyway?
4 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: Carlos did not have a
5 copy of that --
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Original?
7 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: -- original.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So you're telling me
9 that Carlos now likes the original, is --
10 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: No.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Good try, Sister.
12 MR. MANRIQUE: I still have not seen it,
13 Secretary. I mean, you've told me now they had
14 changed it again.
15 MR. OLENICK: No. The -- no.
16 Let me just -- Carlos had a copy of the
17 original agreement, the Marvin Rosen agreement,
18 which you all had last week. He had that at
19 least this morning, and he was given a copy of
20 the proposal that the Chancellor gave.
21 So those are the two items that he has
22 reviewed, and my understanding -- he can speak
23 for himself --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I would suggest
25 this --
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1 MR. OLENICK: -- still not --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- because it's going
3 to be necessary, Mr. Olenick, at some point for
4 someone to restate the amendment because of the
5 ongoing negotiations.
6 Would you read the amendment into the
7 record. That'll give Mr. Manrique an
8 opportunity to hear it as it's being proposed.
9 MR. MANRIQUE: Thank you.
10 MR. OLENICK: Which amendment,
11 Commissioner?
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The original. Not --
13 not the one that has just been proposed, but the
14 original negotiated --
15 MR. OLENICK: The one the Chancellor read?
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
17 MR. OLENICK: Okay.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Starting to sound
19 like the House of Representatives.
20 MR. OLENICK: Prior to the transfer of the
21 FCC license, membership in Barry-Tel. will
22 consist of Barry and the Board of Regents in
23 proportions to be negotiated by said parties;
24 and Barry-Tel. shall maintain XEL TV-FM as a
25 community-based independent, public broadcasting
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1 voice serving the Palm Beach County and
2 Treasure Coast areas with a special commitment
3 to high quality education programming.
4 That was the amendment suggested by the
5 Chancellor.
6 What I was discussing -- I apologize for
7 confusing everybody -- was that the amendment
8 that was received or sent on March 17th, which
9 has five or six -- seven actually, different
10 paragraphs, has a provision, I'll read that for
11 the record.
12 That states that WXEL hereby agrees for
13 itself and its successors and assigns,
14 including, but not limited to Barry-Tel., with
15 respect to the capital items, and the original
16 agreement, that it will not further assign its
17 rights under the original agreement, or further
18 transfer the capital items thereunder, without
19 the prior, written consent of the Board in each
20 instance.
21 The foregoing agreement shall constitute an
22 amendment to the original agreement, such that a
23 default under this paragraph shall continue a
24 default under the original agreement.
25 So that's before you, and that was what I
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1 had discussed initially, and I apologize for
2 confusing everybody.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. Let me
4 now turn to Mr. Manrique, and see if he is
5 satisfied with the language.
6 MR. MANRIQUE: Commissioner, we certainly
7 thank you for what you're trying to do. Our
8 position is sort of that of Secretary Mortham.
9 If you are not going to enter into an
10 agreement with them, why not put it in the
11 language. That's our only -- our only concern,
12 sir.
13 And like I said, with the Sister, as well
14 as with WXEL, they have no problems with this
15 amendment. The attorney said --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, let --
17 MR. MANRIQUE: -- that there's no problem.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me double-check
19 that. I --
20 MR. MANRIQUE: Okay. It could be double.
21 But, I mean, you know, the thing is --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I realize we're
23 painting an airplane in flight here. But I
24 still want to turn to Sister and Chancellor Reed
25 if, in fact, they are comfortable with the new
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1 amendment that's been proposed.
2 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: I do have comfort with
3 it. However, there is a problem a little bit
4 with the experience in the past in terms of the
5 concept with Channel 2. And I think what
6 Dade County is worried about is Channel 2
7 managing it.
8 It is my understanding in the conversations
9 that we have had, that that would not take
10 place. It was also the concern that if we put
11 an amendment in here, in three, five years,
12 would that still hold. I understand then we
13 would have to come back to the Board for that.
14 So as far as I'm concerned right now, I
15 have comfort with it. But I would really
16 leave -- it's very important to me in the light
17 of our dialogue and trust, that Commissioner --
18 or Chancellor Reed has that comfort, too.
19 And other than that, I don't know at this
20 point whether --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Chancellor Reed, did
22 you want to address it?
23 At the fear -- at the risk of being
24 redundant, is it an acceptable amendment to
25 you?
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1 DR. REED: I don't think so, because
2 I think it's just -- it's going to complicate
3 our lives. And if we need to come back before
4 you, I'm willing to do that.
5 But Sister Jeanne and I -- as I said, we
6 spent 4 hours yesterday afternoon and all
7 morning.
8 Now, this language, I thought was the
9 comfort language that the Dade County Schools
10 would need, which says that Barry-Tel. shall
11 maintain WXEL as a community-based, independent
12 public broadcasting voice serving.
13 I thought that's what that was doing. But
14 what -- what I'm hearing is is you want to put
15 one more burden on us working out the conceptual
16 agreement that we have. And I don't think
17 that's necessary, and we don't have any intent
18 on hurting the Dade County School public
19 television programming or station.
20 I hope I -- we don't have to come back
21 before you is what I'm saying.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN:
23 Commissioner Crawford.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I understand the
25 Dade County's concern. But I think the
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1 assurance that the Chancellor's giving us is
2 that there's a lot of ways for this Board to
3 make sure that that happens. I have no thought
4 that it wouldn't happen.
5 So I think we can probably -- I would
6 recommend we just go ahead and move on what I
7 see here as the amendment -- the
8 first amendment, one that Chancellor Reed and
9 Sister Jeanne is recommending.
10 And if there's a motion necessary to get us
11 in that posture, I'd make the appropriate
12 motion.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: It would be
14 appropriate.
15 All right. We have a motion.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And a second.
18 Further discussion by members of the
19 State Board?
20 DR. BEDFORD: Commissioner --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary?
22 DR. BEDFORD: -- Mr. Manrique would like to
23 address the Board again. I don't know --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let's hear from the
25 Secretary.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, I guess I'd like
2 to -- I guess the proper thing would be to amend
3 the amendment then -- or the motion to include
4 the 3(a), because I have a tendency to go in the
5 other direction.
6 I believe that if, in fact, everyone is
7 assuring us that this is not going to happen
8 anyway, I think that for the State Board of
9 Education to make Dade County comfortable with
10 this agreement is the way that we ought to go.
11 I don't -- I don't think that there's any
12 way, shape, or form that Sister Jeanne or
13 Chancellor Reed believes that this is going to
14 happen anyway. So I don't see why there's a
15 problem with accepting this amendment.
16 So I move the amendment to the motion.
17 TREASURER NELSON: Are you moving the
18 amendment that is distributed here?
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: 3(a) --
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: 3(a).
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- yes.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I'll second it.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. We've got
24 a motion and a second to include the original
25 amendment, and amendment 3(a).
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1 So I guess we're first going to vote on the
2 substitute amendment, correct?
3 DR. BEDFORD: And with --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. Any
5 further discussion?
6 Mr. --
7 DR. BEDFORD: With that in mind, another
8 person from the audience has asked to address in
9 light of the amendment.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Quickly, please.
11 MR. BAGGETT: Yes, sir.
12 DR. BEDFORD: Give your name and --
13 MR. BAGGETT: Cabinet members, my name is
14 Fred Baggett. I am an attorney with Greenberg,
15 Traurig, and I represent Channel 2.
16 And this is the first -- in all of the
17 discussion of the XEL lease, this is the first
18 time anyone has brought forward the issue to --
19 to in writing exclude Channel 2 from anything.
20 We haven't done anything.
21 Channel 2 is a premier -- one of the
22 premier public education stations in this
23 state. It is a good -- a great community
24 citizen providing community-based television
25 through south Florida.
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1 To have an amendment like this based on an
2 open assertion that unless you have it, you're
3 endangering public education in Dade County is
4 truly an affront. It truly is.
5 We have worked through this process,
6 discussed this matter with Chancellor Reed, with
7 Regent Moyle to ensure that WXEL remained a
8 public education entity.
9 To come in here now and at the very last
10 minute on this matter be singled out in an
11 amendment truly is bothersome and an affront for
12 something we haven't done.
13 We would ask that you not make this slight
14 on Channel 2, that you accept the recommendation
15 of Chancellor Reed, and go forward with the
16 action that's before you that's been worked out
17 by the Sister and Chancellor Reed.
18 Thank you.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
20 Mr. Baggett.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Commissioner --
22 Mr. Baggett, I guess my question would be
23 to you is if, in fact, you've had conversations
24 with Chancellor Reed specific to this issue --
25 I mean, we have -- to my knowledge, have not
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1 been contacted by your office --
2 MR. BAGGETT: Yes, ma'am.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- or W-- or
4 Channel 2.
5 And my concern would be is: Do you,
6 in fact, intend at any point in time to try to
7 be involved in that consortium?
8 MR. BAGGETT: We have no rights to the
9 license, and we don't intend under that
10 consortium to take the license. If this
11 action's taken -- I can't speak for what
12 Channel 2 may find itself necessary -- may find
13 it necessary to do with regards to the pending
14 license application at this time. I can't speak
15 to that. I'm not involved in that.
16 My only knowledge is that in what you have
17 before you, we have had a great interest in
18 seeing that the university system be involved.
19 We have spoken with your office on that issue,
20 that the university systems be involved.
21 But not that we try to take over the
22 license from WXEL.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So then you're saying
24 that if you have no intention to be involved in
25 this consortium that we are basically approving
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1 here today, why do you find it offensive?
2 Because, I mean, obviously it's not
3 intended to be offensive to Channel 2
4 whatsoever. But what it does say is that we
5 want this to be the consortium that is, in fact,
6 put in this agreement.
7 MR. BAGGETT: Yes, ma'am.
8 We understand and accept the consortium
9 concept. That's -- that's not at issue. Would
10 we be involved in the consortium? If the
11 consortium wanted us, or agreed with us, for us
12 to help participate with -- with programming or
13 something of that nature? We would like to do
14 that. But that's their choice. That's not our
15 choice. We're not seeking the license.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And the way I read
17 the amendment, WXEL is not precluded from
18 participating in some way, shape, or form from
19 the consortium as I read --
20 MR. BAGGETT: WPBT --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the amendment.
22 MR. BAGGETT: -- is.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Excuse me.
24 MR. BAGGETT: Why would it not be?
25 I'm sorry, sir. But it would appear that it
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1 would be by the amendment to the amendment.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
3 Commissioner, could someone read that amendment
4 again, because I --
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: It says license, it
6 doesn't say that you couldn't participate in
7 programming. It just says licenses.
8 Barry-Tel. agrees that it will not further
9 assign, transfer, or allow the FCC licenses here
10 involved to be utilized or managed by third
11 parties, other than the consortium made up of
12 the entities identified below in paragraph 4,
13 without the approval of WXEL, or its successors
14 or assigns.
15 It doesn't talk about programming at all.
16 It talks about the licenses.
17 MR. BAGGETT: It does talk about managed.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, yes. It does
19 talk about managing.
20 MR. BAGGETT: This would preclude the
21 consortium from contracting with anybody else to
22 manage the facility on their behalf.
23 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: Without coming back to
24 the Board.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Without
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1 coming back here.
2 MR. BAGGETT: Yeah.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Right.
4 Any change in management would have to come
5 before this body, correct?
6 DR. BEDFORD: That's right.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Correct.
8 DR. BEDFORD: That's right. That is
9 correct.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right.
11 Chancellor?
12 DR. REED: I just saw this just, you know,
13 this morning. It doesn't say that
14 Dade County -- doesn't say that you have to come
15 back to this -- to this Board. Now, if you want
16 to put that in here, that -- give me a little
17 bit more comfort.
18 But one of the things -- I talked to lots
19 of people about the consortium. I talked to the
20 Florida International University, I talked to
21 Broward County -- the community college in
22 Broward County, Palm Beach Community College,
23 Indian River College. I talked to Channel 2.
24 Because when I left here, I thought it was
25 open to talk to everybody about the consortium
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1 and who would or wouldn't be involved in that.
2 Then what happened was then we came back
3 and then Sister Jeanne and I then said, okay,
4 we'll put together a public, private educational
5 partnership, and then we will go back after we
6 do that to work with the consortium.
7 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: Both public and
8 private.
9 DR. REED: Both public and private. There
10 was even a mention of --
11 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: Lynn at Nova --
12 DR. REED: -- Nova Southeast as a part of
13 that.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Right.
15 DR. REED: So, yes, I talked to all those
16 people.
17 I'm just not sure what this does. Does
18 this say that if we have a partnership between
19 Barry and the Board of Regents, that we can't
20 ever have somebody help us manage the station if
21 Barry and one of our universities don't want to
22 manage it?
23 That's what I'm afraid that you're getting
24 ready to do. Unless maybe the protection would
25 come back in here. Because it says without
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1 approval of WXEL.
2 But --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It
4 doesn't --
5 Commissioner --
6 DR. REED: I need some --
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have real
8 problems with this particular amendment.
9 I think -- it doesn't say what Dade County wants
10 it to say. And I believe it is overloading the
11 wagon.
12 I think we're covered with what the
13 Chancellor and Sister Jeanne have stated.
14 I think it's their intent for a -- the
15 university system to be managing this station,
16 as I understand it. That is what everybody has
17 stated.
18 I know I've had the opportunity to speak to
19 all the participants. And I've been very much,
20 I think, hoping that they would come to that
21 conclusion. And I'm convinced they have.
22 If they wish to have it managed by somebody
23 else, they better hope it's another
24 Attorney General sitting here.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I agree with that.
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1 I'd suggest we vote if --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me just ask one
3 more time, anybody has anything different to say
4 on the issue than's already been said.
5 MR. MANRIQUE: I don't have a problem with
6 withdrawing that amendment if we can come up
7 with a conceptual amendment, Commissioner, that
8 says what we're talking about here doing.
9 And basically is -- and we have the highest
10 respect for WPBT. What we're saying here is:
11 If they are going to enter into an agreement
12 with them, come before this Board. That's all
13 we're saying.
14 And if you can have a conceptual amendment,
15 and I think that that's what we heard from the
16 Chancellor and from the Sister, we would live
17 with that, and we can withdraw this amendment if
18 we can come up with a conceptual --
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Sister, you will have
20 the final word on this issue.
21 SISTER O'LAUGHLIN: Blessings, my son.
22 The important thing here is the original
23 amendment says that it will depend on the
24 negotiations between these parties. And that
25 will be one of -- we will guarantee that that
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1 will be one of the areas that we will
2 negotiate.
3 And we will -- I make the commitment to the
4 Dade County community -- the public schools that
5 in that negotiation for that article, we will
6 talk with them.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Question.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: To Mr. Bedford,
11 I believe.
12 The -- with the original agreement, and the
13 amendment that was brought to our attention a
14 couple of hours ago from the Board of Regents
15 and Sister Jeanne, is it your opinion for the
16 record that if, in fact, the licenses or the
17 management of this was other than within the
18 consortium --
19 I can see Mr. Olenick, you're going to be
20 up here.
21 -- that it would have to come back before
22 the Cabinet.
23 DR. BEDFORD: And the only reason I want
24 Mike is the word "management." I'm very
25 comfortable with ownership.
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1 MR. OLENICK: The original agreement has
2 sole and exclusive control, and if that sole and
3 exclusive control changes, it comes back to
4 you. That's the original agreement.
5 DR. BEDFORD: Okay. Okay.
6 Thank you, Mike.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So was that yes to my
8 question? For the record.
9 MR. OLENICK: I'll learn eventually.
10 Yes, ma'am.
11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. Then if that is
12 now on the record, and I believe Dade County can
13 feel comfortable that it will come back before
14 the Cabinet, I'd like to withdraw my amendment.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Maker of the second,
16 withdrawal?
17 All right. Then we're back to the original
18 amendment which was moved and seconded for
19 the -- for the agreement.
20 Any last discussions by the members of the
21 State Board of Education?
22 Hearing none, we have a motion and a
23 second.
24 I gave you ample opportunity.
25 Without objection, agreement passes.
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1 And, again, we --
2 DR. BEDFORD: I suppose -- I suppose that
3 means I lose the Academy Award for directing --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I think you did.
5 And --
6 DR. BEDFORD: I think that's --
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, again, we want
8 to thank both Sister Jeanne, Chancellor Reed,
9 and all the others who worked to put that
10 agreement together. I know how difficult it
11 was, and you're to be commended.
12 I think the public interest will be served
13 very well.
14 All right. Moving on.
15 DR. BEDFORD: Item 5, approval of the State
16 of Florida Statewide Emergency Sheltering Plan,
17 which I believe you have a blue book that looks
18 like this.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move the
20 Plan.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I have a motion.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Motion and a second.
24 Discussion?
25 Without objection, Item 5 passes.
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1 DR. BEDFORD: Item 6 is an amendment to
2 Rule 6A-2.0111 --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
4 DR. BEDFORD: -- Educational --
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
6 DR. BEDFORD: -- Facilities.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I have a motion and a
8 second.
9 Discussion?
10 Without objection, Item 6 passes.
11 DR. BEDFORD: Item 7 and 8, we have
12 President Bob Dawson from the Florida School of
13 Deaf and Blind.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: President Dawson.
15 MR. DAWSON: 6D-12.002 amends the Campus
16 Security/Police Manual.
17 Recommend --
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
19 MR. DAWSON: -- approval.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Motion and a second.
22 Discussion?
23 Without objection --
24 MR. DAWSON: 6D--
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- item passes.
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1 MR. DAWSON: 6D-5.003 is amended to include
2 additional personnel and --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
4 MR. DAWSON: -- modify specific --
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
6 MR. DAWSON: -- titles and job
7 descriptions.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I have a motion and a
9 second.
10 Discussion?
11 Without objection, Item 8 passes.
12 MR. DAWSON: Thank you.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Mr. Chairman --
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
15 Commissioner.
16 TREASURER NELSON: -- I need to go back to
17 Item 5.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's why
19 we passed it quickly. While you were on the way
20 out, we --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir,
22 Commissioner.
23 TREASURER NELSON: One of the
24 recommendations included in this plan calls for
25 using the Catastrophic Hurricane Fund to help
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1 defray the increase in construction costs
2 associated with converting public education
3 facilities into emergency shelters.
4 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
5 TREASURER NELSON: I want to go on record
6 in opposition to the use of the Cat Fund for
7 this purpose.
8 When we got the IRS to sign off making the
9 Cat Fund not taxable, the IRS said it had to
10 look, act, walk, and quack like a government,
11 and so 10 million was to be set-aside to be used
12 for residential mitigation purposes.
13 And since homeowners pay -- this is
14 homeowner policyholders -- pay the premiums into
15 this Cat Fund 100 percent, it's imperative that
16 the mitigation programs provide a direct benefit
17 to the homeowners, and not to commercial
18 buildings or public buildings.
19 Now, while we agree that we need to use a
20 limited number of --
21 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
22 TREASURER NELSON: -- policyholders
23 homeowners' money in the Cat Fund dollars for
24 university research and public awareness, we
25 feel that funding for converting schools to
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1 emergency shelter facilities should come from
2 other sources.
3 It's my understanding that FEMA is
4 proposing a fifty million dollar grant devoted
5 specifically for retrofitting hurricane
6 resistant construction.
7 So since I had walked to the side and this
8 item passed within the blink of an eye, I would
9 ask someone on the Board to move to reconsider
10 so that I can offer a motion to amend the plan.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'd so move.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We've got a motion
14 and a second to reconsider?
15 Discussion?
16 All right. Without objection, we'll
17 reconsider the item.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Then, Mr. Chairman, I
19 move to amend the plan by deleting the
20 recommendation which identifies the use of the
21 Catastrophic Funds as a dedicated funding source
22 for constructing facilities with enhanced
23 hurricane protection areas.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We have a motion.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And a second.
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just a comment.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: General.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I do understand that
6 this is -- they are to prepare and submit a plan
7 where there is no plan in place.
8 And what we are telling them up-front is
9 that they are not to consider the Cat Fund in
10 the development of that plan.
11 TREASURER NELSON: On the basis of what --
12 of the policy that I --
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And --
14 TREASURER NELSON: -- enunciated, which was
15 it's homeowners' money, it shouldn't be going to
16 public buildings.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's correct. But
18 we have no plan in place, and we are just
19 defining an element of restriction in terms of
20 their developing the plan.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
22 Further discussion.
23 Hearing none, we have a motion and a second
24 on the floor.
25 Without objection, item passes.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Now may I walk to the
2 side?
3 DR. BEDFORD: And we would ask to withdraw
4 Item 9.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move withdrawal.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Motion --
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and a second.
9 Without objection, we'll withdraw Item 9.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: With that --
11 DR. BEDFORD: -- to Item 2, sir.
12 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, ma'am. With --
14 DR. BEDFORD: With that, Item 2 is appeal
15 of the Florida Charter Schools, Don McCammon,
16 denied by Seminole County School Board.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm going to, members
18 of the State Board, read into the record --
19 similarly we do this before clemency hearings.
20 And because this is a new process for all of us
21 as defined by State Board rule, I'd like to read
22 into the --
23 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
24 room.)
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- record some of the
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1 parameters regarding the statute, the
2 State Board rule, and some of the guidelines
3 that we will use today so that we can get off on
4 an even keel relative to the appeals.
5 State Board of Education will now consider
6 appeals of denials of charter school
7 applications pursuant to 96-186, Laws of
8 Florida. And we'll take a moment to explain the
9 process.
10 As prescribed by law, Florida School Boards
11 are given authority to grant approval to
12 applicants who wish to operate charter schools
13 within a district. A further provision of the
14 law allows an applicant who has been denied a
15 charter the right to appeal the School Board's
16 decision to the State Board of Education.
17 Based on the written record and oral
18 argument presented at this meeting, the
19 State Board must vote to recommend acceptance or
20 rejection of the appeal to the School Board.
21 The vote requires a simple majority of the
22 members, and by law is not subject to the
23 provisions of the Administrative Procedures Act.
24 The rule governing the appeal process was
25 unanimously adopted by this Cabinet sitting as
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1 the State Board of Education on December 10th,
2 1996. It very clearly states how this hearing
3 must proceed, and it specifies the following
4 limitations which must be respected by the
5 applicant, the School District Board, and their
6 representatives:
7 One, the Notice of Appeal must be based on
8 errors the applicant charges the School Board
9 made in its decision to deny the charter; two,
10 the written argument submitted by the applicant
11 to the State Board is limited to discussion of
12 those errors; three, the record of this
13 proceeding is limited to the written arguments,
14 the charter school application itself, and
15 transcripts of meetings before the School
16 District Board; four, at this hearing,
17 representatives of each party may give oral
18 argument. Oral argument is limited to a summary
19 of the written arguments previously submitted to
20 the State Board; five, each side is alotted
21 30 minutes, which we will adhere to rigidly, to
22 present its summary; six, after the summaries
23 are presented, a vote will be taken and a
24 written recommendation of the vote will be
25 returned to the District School Board.
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1 So we will now move into the first of the
2 two charter appeals. Again, knowing that we are
3 new in this process, we'll try to walk through
4 this together.
5 But I will again ask the participants to
6 please recognize that there is 30 minutes which
7 has been granted a side, and that will include
8 rebuttal. So if, in fact, it is your
9 determination that you would like to reserve
10 some of your 30-minute allotment for rebuttal,
11 we will so calculate.
12 And with that, the first appeal is the
13 Florida Charter Schools, Don McCammon, which was
14 denied by the Seminole County School Board.
15 And we'll hear from the applicant.
16 Please identify yourself for the record.
17 MR. McCAMMON: Thank you.
18 My name's Don McCammon. I'm President of
19 Florida Charter Schools, a resident of
20 Seminole County, Florida.
21 Madam Secretary, members of the Cabinet,
22 I -- I am going to be our second speaker. I'd
23 like to introduce our first speaker, who's a
24 member of our Board of Directors, has given us a
25 great deal of advice and counsel since the
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1 beginning.
2 He's the president of James Madison
3 Institute here in Tallahassee, and the former
4 president of Florida State University,
5 Dr. J. Stanley Marshall.
6 DR. MARSHALL: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair,
7 members of the Cabinet.
8 The Florida Legislature in 1996 enacted
9 legislation making possible the establishment of
10 charter schools in Florida. Florida thus joined
11 more than 20 other states in recognizing the
12 strength of the charter school movement across
13 the country.
14 The Florida Legislature, I believe, took
15 this action for three reasons: First, to
16 accommodate the wishes of parents and teachers
17 and Florida citizens generally, who are
18 confident of their ability to establish and
19 operate a public school with a mission and
20 program that they would decide upon.
21 Second, to provide for the establishment of
22 schools with different missions, different rules
23 and regulations, different schedules, different
24 approaches to instruction, a different role for
25 parents.
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1 In other words, a different concept of
2 schooling, but one that recognizes the school's
3 obligations to provide instruction in the core
4 academic subjects.
5 And, third, I believe, the Legislature in
6 passing the Charter Schools Act recognized the
7 will of the people of Florida who believe they
8 have a right, indeed, an obligation, to provide
9 for their children --
10 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
11 DR. MARSHALL: -- schooling opportunities
12 which in their opinion best serve the needs and
13 interests of their children.
14 The approval of six applications for
15 charter schools in the weeks following the
16 passage of the Act in May of last year, in time
17 for those schools to be opened in July or
18 August, speaks both to the zeal and the
19 dedication of charter school proponents, and to
20 the good faith of the District School Boards
21 that approved those applications.
22 Many of the advocates of charter schools
23 were gratified by the way -- at the way the
24 dynamics of charter schools developed in 1996.
25 The picture in 1997, however, is somewhat
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1 less encouraging. And I should like to call
2 your attention respectfully to some of the
3 impediments that now seem to stand in the way of
4 progress in the evolution of charter schools in
5 Florida.
6 My comments are made in my capacity as a
7 member of the Board of Directors of Florida
8 Charter Schools, Inc. In this capacity, I've
9 reviewed the plan, and I believe that it is
10 sound.
11 I do not, however, confuse my role with
12 that of the School Board, which is described in
13 the legislation as a sponsor of the charter
14 school, which -- in the language and the law,
15 which shall receive and review all applications
16 and by majority vote, approve or deny the
17 application, as the Commissioner just said.
18 In other words, I recognize the authority
19 of the School Board, and with that authority,
20 its obligation to examine the application and
21 its provisions for student eligibility; rights
22 and qualifications of employees; length of the
23 school year; physical facilities; funding for
24 start-up; and perhaps most important of all,
25 accountability of performance.
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1 In the examination of the application on
2 these and other criteria, the School Board and
3 its staff will surely question and prove -- and
4 probe all of these in-depth. And they must, as
5 they fulfill the requirement of the law, to
6 approve or deny the application, weigh the
7 answers to these questions and render a
8 judgment.
9 Mr. McCammon, the President of Florida
10 Charter Schools, Inc., will discuss in some
11 detail what he regards as errors on the part of
12 the Seminole County School Board in denying his
13 application.
14 Mr. McCammon has been the principal officer
15 in Florida Charter Schools in the preparation of
16 the charter school plan, and in discussions and
17 conferences with the Superintendent and School
18 District staff members.
19 He's prepared to describe those exchanges,
20 and to explain why he believes Florida Charter
21 Schools, as applicant, was denied due process,
22 and why the State Board of Education should
23 approve the amended charter school application
24 as he submitted -- submitted it to the
25 Seminole County School Board on February 11,
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1 1997.
2 As a member of the Board of Florida Charter
3 Schools, and as one who has conferred with
4 several interested parties throughout this state
5 in the charter school movement in Florida, and
6 who, indeed, encouraged the passage of the bill
7 last year, I should like to tell you now why I
8 believe the spirit of the law, at least the
9 spirit of the law, is being trampled.
10 The schedule established by the Seminole
11 School Board for processing charter school
12 applications seems to have needlessly delayed
13 the process.
14 The Board passed an emergency resolution on
15 September 19, 1996, stipulating that no further
16 applications for charter schools would be
17 accepted until December. Denial of the
18 applications in February, with the time required
19 for an appeal to this body, and then the time
20 allowed for referral back to the local
21 School Board, all of this will make it very
22 difficult for proponents to complete their plans
23 to open school -- charter schools in August of
24 1997.
25 The time restrictions imposed by the
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1 Seminole County School Board do not appear in
2 the law itself. They are imposed by the
3 School Board.
4 But there's further evidence of obstruction
5 by school boards that I should like to call to
6 your attention. Existing schools may can be --
7 may be converted to charter schools on the basis
8 of a polling of teachers and parents.
9 The Seminole School Board has refused twice
10 to provide a list of parents in the district.
11 Such directory information is not protected by
12 law. The Board simply stated it is their policy
13 not to give out such information.
14 Public statements by school officials
15 representing hostility to charter schools,
16 indeed, to the law, would seem to be in
17 violation of the spirit of the law. The
18 Seminole County School Superintendent appeared
19 on local television; that is, Orlando's
20 Channel 6, with the following statement:
21 Charter schools haven't been successful anywhere
22 in the country.
23 That statement, I believe, is at odds with
24 the facts.
25 I discovered as I examined the transcript
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1 of the School Board's review of the charter
2 school application in another county that a
3 School Board member made the following
4 statement: The legislation -- this is a
5 quotation -- the legislation for charter schools
6 said clearly that the purpose of charter schools
7 was to serve at-risk students.
8 But the law addresses that question,
9 in fact, in the following language. The purpose
10 of charter schools shall be to: Increase
11 learning opportunities for all students, with
12 special emphasis on expanded learning
13 opportunities for students who are identified as
14 academically low achieving.
15 That's the end of the quotation from the
16 law.
17 I believe that School Board member failed
18 to make a distinction between an express
19 preference in the law, and a requirement.
20 The same School Board member raised a
21 number of questions which seemed to imply that a
22 purpose of the charter school should be to
23 address demographic and other problems of the
24 local school district.
25 Consider the following quotation taken from
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1 that transcript. The School Board member said:
2 How many of the at-risk students in this
3 particular county will be served by these
4 schools? And are they students in the greatest
5 need in this county? And what, basically, are
6 we trying to accomplish through the use of
7 charter schools in this area?
8 These statements, and others in the
9 transcript of the hearing, seem to reveal the
10 notion that some School Board members do not
11 understand that charter schools are independent
12 public schools.
13 From the law, this quotation: Part of the
14 State's program of public education, whose
15 purpose is not to help or hinder the goals of
16 the local school district.
17 The law stipulates that the purpose of the
18 charter schools, and I quote from the law:
19 Should be to improve student learning; encourage
20 the use of different and innovative learning
21 methods; increase choice of learning
22 opportunities; create new professional
23 opportunities for teachers, including the
24 opportunity to own learning programs at the
25 school site. To own the learning program at the
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1 school site.
2 I take that to mean that School Board
3 members are not required, nor, indeed, permitted
4 to direct or supervise the programs in the
5 charter schools. The accountability comes at
6 the end of the school year when charter school
7 students are tested, and the test results
8 reported to make -- again, I quote from the
9 law -- to make an annual progress report to its
10 sponsor, the State Board of Education, the
11 Commissioner of Education, the President of the
12 Senate, and the Speaker of the House of
13 Representatives.
14 I believe it is unwarranted, and perhaps --
15 and a legal intrusion on the part of the
16 School Board members into the charter school
17 plan, when they require that the charter school
18 serves some purpose related to the overall
19 program or mission of the school district.
20 My opinions on these charter school
21 questions are offered as observations --
22 observations of one citizen with a long-standing
23 interest in public education, and a particular
24 interest now in charter schools.
25 Some of these observations could be
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1 documented, but I'm not prepared to do that
2 today, and I don't want to. Others are based on
3 reports from respected colleagues and
4 professional associates who believe that the
5 charter school movement is in danger of being
6 seriously damaged by the actions of people who
7 have a vested interest in seeing it fail.
8 They do not seem to understand that it's
9 the law in Florida. There appear to be a number
10 of ways in which the law can be circumvented, or
11 at least ways in which lengthy delays can be
12 worked into the system, the end result of which
13 will surely be to discourage those whose
14 place -- who place their faith in a promising
15 educational innovation enacted by the Florida
16 Legislature and signed by the Governor.
17 Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
19 Dr. Marshall.
20 Questions?
21 Mr. McCammon?
22 MR. McCAMMON: Let me say briefly a little
23 bit about the features of our charter school.
24 We're a night high school for students at
25 risk of dropping out. They have small classes,
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1 an average class size of 15 students, a
2 guaranteed maximum of no more than 20 students.
3 Students attend four nights a week, they
4 can earn extra credits during the day with work
5 credits, and have 9 credits per year.
6 They have personal education plans,
7 advisory groups, they can get extra help in
8 individual tutoring. We have mental health
9 counselors at the school, will make excessive
10 use of -- or extensive use of computers.
11 Our school will be a drug-free workplace.
12 We've found that high school students -- I've
13 worked with them extensively -- do not
14 appreciate double standards, and we believe that
15 that should be something that's important and
16 throughout the state for all our schools.
17 We have a school council made up of three
18 parents, two teachers, one administrator, and
19 one outside business leader. They have to
20 approve the curriculum and the principal.
21 We have majors and scholarships. Students
22 can take extra courses in a specialty area like
23 math or English and the arts, and they can earn
24 a major.
25 And if they graduate with a major and a
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1 2.5 GPA, they can get $1,000 scholarship. We've
2 set aside $150,000 in the third year just for
3 these scholarships.
4 We have faculty incentives. I -- some of
5 the comments that were made earlier about
6 attracting and keeping faculty. One of the
7 biggest problems I think we have is the size of
8 our classes, and the load that our teachers
9 have.
10 The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement
11 of Teachers recommends a load of no more than 80
12 to 90 students. In our county, we have
13 approximately 150 to a 160 students per teacher.
14 We will have a maximum of 40 students per
15 teacher in our school. If the school meets its
16 performance goal, every teacher the first year
17 will receive, every teacher, a $500 bonus, the
18 administrators will see a $250 bonus. The
19 second and third year they'll get $1,000 bonus;
20 and the administrators, a $500 bonus.
21 This is similar to what's being done in
22 Charlotte, North Carolina, very effectively
23 now. Where, by the way, they have reduced
24 dramatically their administrative costs and
25 gotten their class sizes down to 17 students per
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1 class.
2 I, too, respect the authority of a local
3 school board. I think they have the great
4 responsibility of overseeing the education of
5 our children. They build the schools; they
6 choose the principals and faculty; they make
7 certain our children receive a high quality
8 education, the education that we would all like
9 to see in Florida.
10 They are elected officials. They have the
11 faith and confidence of the local electorate.
12 They have the duty and the obligation to use
13 great care and diligence in chartering new
14 schools and in monitoring these new schools.
15 Because they are elected officials, they
16 should be able to do whatever they think is
17 right, regardless of what the guidelines or the
18 law says, and regardless of their policies.
19 Or should they? Should they have to follow
20 the guidelines of the charter law? Should they
21 have to follow their own adopted policies. Or
22 should they be allowed to arbitrarily
23 discriminate and deny a charter without good
24 cause.
25 I think that's the question, the principal
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1 question of this appeal.
2 Members of our Board and myself have been
3 outspoken advocates of public school reform.
4 This does not endear us sometimes to local
5 administrators. I'm one of those people that
6 believes we have plenty of money to operate our
7 schools effectively. What we lack is the local
8 political courage and leadership to change the
9 system.
10 The School Board, I think, has admitted in
11 their response that they denied us due process
12 by withholding the addendum so that we could not
13 respond to the recommendations of the
14 superintendent.
15 And they've also admitted that we were not
16 given timely notice of the public hearing for
17 consideration of the school.
18 In the response to our appeal, the
19 School Board attorney has stated that I'm the
20 primary person involved in our efforts to start
21 a charter school. That's true. I am the
22 President of Florida Charter School; and I work
23 full-time, I should point out, without
24 compensation.
25 I left my job for six months, and I've been
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1 at the School Board almost every day, during
2 that period of time, as I think the School Board
3 attendant will attest to.
4 I have invested over $30,000 of my own
5 money to get a charter school started.
6 The School Board attorney stated in his
7 response they believe I am charter schools. It
8 should be noted that we have seven members on
9 our Board of Directors, an outstanding group of
10 directors: A local attorney, an expert on
11 multicultural education, Dr. English; Ted Doss;
12 Jessica Poisson, an administrator; Al Anderson,
13 a certified public accountant; Dr. John Allen,
14 who has a doctorate in educational psychology.
15 He's the owner of the Allen Group, an
16 outstanding business person.
17 Myself, I'm a licensed and Board certified
18 mental health counselor. I specialize in
19 working with adolescents. I'm also qualified in
20 court as an expert witness on adolescents.
21 I have five children myself, two are
22 currently in the District. And of our seven
23 Board members, six of them have children
24 currently in the District. And then, of course,
25 Dr. J. Stanley Marshall, who you heard before.
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1 Five of our Board members have appeared
2 before the Seminole County School Board to make
3 presentations.
4 The School Board stated in their response
5 to our appeal that they have a lack of
6 confidence in me, and that they don't think our
7 Board is credible or capable. I take umbrage at
8 that comment and those remarks.
9 In accordance with their charter school
10 policy, we provided complete resumes on each
11 director, including three personal and business
12 references.
13 In addition, they were given fingerprint
14 cards on the day that we submitted our
15 application on each of our officers, including
16 myself.
17 They also received, prior to submitting the
18 application, a detailed six-page personal and
19 business background on me, and were authorized
20 to do background checks.
21 The School Board did not call our
22 references prior to denying the application,
23 they did not mail questionnaires to the
24 references, they did not do background checks,
25 they did not run the criminal background checks
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1 on the fingerprint cards, any of this prior to
2 our denial.
3 They did not verify employment. And it
4 appears they made a decision based upon the
5 minds of the staff, and did not do any due
6 diligence to determine whether or not we were
7 credible or capable.
8 What did they base their decision on and
9 their response in the writings? The
10 School Board attorney said their position is
11 buttressed by a negative newspaper article about
12 me.
13 I don't have to tell you, the highest
14 elected officials in our state, that your
15 newspaper standing depends on what day you read
16 the newspaper and which newspaper you read.
17 And if they would like, I'd be happy to
18 provide them numerous articles and newspaper
19 clippings and TV appearances from my previous
20 business experience that attest to my
21 capability.
22 If they checked my background, they would
23 have found that I served my country and the
24 State of Florida in the U.S. Army and the
25 Florida Army National Guard.
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1 They would have found that after I
2 graduated from college in 1969, I volunteered
3 for the Army during the height of the Vietnam
4 war, and that I graduated first in my class in
5 advanced individual training.
6 They would have found that I've been living
7 continuously in the state of Florida over the
8 last 26 years; that in the state of Florida, I
9 have been licensed as a life insurance agent, a
10 real estate and mortgage broker; and for the
11 past five years, I've been licensed as a mental
12 health counselor.
13 They would have also found that I've never
14 had a complaint filed against me, or had any
15 lawsuits filed against me for mismanagement, or
16 for any other reason.
17 In his response, a School Board attorney
18 stated they didn't like the fact that we were
19 organized like a business. He's correct, we are
20 organized like a business. We think that's one
21 of our strengths.
22 The local School Board is organized a
23 little differently. They have a paid
24 School Board. Their budget this year is
25 $900,000 for the five School Board members for
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1 School Board expenses.
2 They then have a superintendent; they then
3 have 18 department heads; they then have
4 principals, assistant principals, deans, and
5 administrators.
6 We've tried to simplify that process. We
7 have a president, a principal, and then we go
8 directly to a dean and administration.
9 In fact, we advocate this model for the
10 local school boards. We think they're a little
11 top heavy. We've set a self-imposed limit on
12 the amount of money that can be spent on central
13 administrative costs.
14 I pointed out to the School Board, if they
15 were similarly organized, they would save about
16 80 percent of their central administrative
17 costs, or about $10 million a year.
18 That would be enough money to reduce our
19 class size in every class in the district by
20 about five to six students.
21 I pointed out that this was done in
22 Cincinnati, where they reduced their central
23 administrative costs by 70 percent, and they
24 also found that their school based
25 administrators were paid 38 percent more than
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1 comparable business positions, and they
2 dramatically cut those salaries to put more
3 money back in the classroom.
4 In his response, the School Board attorney
5 has stated the School Board must be very careful
6 about letting just anybody have a charter school
7 because what if they fail, the money would be
8 gone and the children would have to return to
9 the school system.
10 I suggest that our school system is failing
11 our children right now. And they have nowhere
12 to go.
13 At least 40 percent of the students that
14 start the ninth grade in the District, by their
15 own numbers, do not finish high school.
16 Florida's goal for the year 2000 is that
17 90 percent of the students finish high school.
18 It's kind of like the old farmer giving
19 directions to the tourist who responds -- the
20 farmer says, you can't get there from here.
21 That's where we are. Unless we make some
22 dramatic changes in our school deliverance
23 system, we will never get there.
24 Sandy Robinson, Mrs. Robinson, one of our
25 Board members, which we are very fortunate to
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1 have, she's the Chairman of the School Board,
2 and an outstanding Board member, she's takes her
3 job very seriously and works very hard at it, is
4 here today. I -- she might have the opportunity
5 to speak.
6 The School Board recommended to us that we
7 start small, that we find a niche, that we fill
8 a need. We had filed a previous application,
9 which we withdrew, which was for an entire
10 school. She suggested that we consider the
11 night high school portion of our application,
12 which we did.
13 The School Board attorney stated in their
14 response that they're worried about our
15 mismanagement. And Sandy Robinson stated that
16 she feels like she may not be able to trust me.
17 I understand that, I accept that, and I
18 don't take that personally. I believe that a
19 healthy amount of skepticism and distrust was
20 intended. And that's precisely why the school
21 boards were set up to receive a 5 percent fee to
22 monitor the success of a school.
23 I suggest that the School Board attorney
24 read the law. He'll notice that in
25 Section 110(d), the School Board is allowed to
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1 terminate a charter immediately for misuse of
2 funds; or if the sponsor determines a good cause
3 has been shown; or if the health, safety, or
4 welfare of the students is threatened.
5 We've offered to give the School Board
6 monthly financial statements, even though it's
7 not required. We're giving them an independent
8 audit -- independent audit performed by the
9 national accounting firm of Coopers & Lybrand.
10 We've also stated that all checks would have two
11 signatures, and we've offered to give them a
12 half million dollar fidelity bond.
13 The School Board has admitted in the
14 response that our proposal has merit, that it
15 meets all the requirements of the law, and would
16 be in the best interest of pupils and the
17 community.
18 In his response, the School Board's
19 attorney states that it's not so much whether
20 the application complies with the law or has
21 merit, or will help students. What's more
22 important, he states, is the sense of the body
23 to which the application is submitted.
24 I submit that that's an arbitrary criteria
25 not set forth either in their policies, or in
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1 the legislation.
2 Why didn't the School Board do the
3 background checks? Why are they arbitrarily
4 relying on a sense of the body without
5 information?
6 They've asked about why we don't have funds
7 set forth. We've specifically requested
8 approval under the law which states that we can
9 become approved prior to being -- to having
10 funds set forth.
11 In fact, we are registered with the
12 Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
13 to receive funds, and we've sent back two
14 contributions. We have funded -- the
15 School Board -- or the -- our Board members, all
16 of the expenses ourselves to this point until we
17 receive approval.
18 Our imposing -- our school focuses on two
19 major issues: One is the dropout problem. A
20 second major issue is the tremendous cost to
21 build schools. These are two of the major
22 problems facing the state of Florida.
23 Right now, there's a reverse incentive in
24 school to keep kids in the District. If more
25 kids stay in school, they have to build more
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1 schools, and they don't have the money to build
2 more schools.
3 We're using the same school at night, we're
4 making a better use of existing resources, we're
5 actually reducing crowding during the day, and
6 we're saving the school approximately --
7 School District about 7 million dollars in new
8 construction.
9 If our model works, and we can make double
10 use of a facility, and it's used throughout the
11 state, we could save literally hundreds of
12 millions of dollars.
13 Finally, I'll close. I don't think this is
14 a question of politics or local control. This
15 is a question of having the courage to do what
16 is right for the children of Florida.
17 We ask that you uphold our appeal. And
18 keep in mind, too, that you are not overturning
19 the School Board. All you do in upholding our
20 appeal is remand the application back to the
21 School Board, suggesting that they approve the
22 application, and giving them the opportunity to
23 show good cause for turning it down.
24 If they turn it down again with good cause,
25 then we have the right for judicial appeal.
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1 Thank you very much.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
3 Mr. McCammon.
4 Any questions from the members of
5 the Board?
6 If not, we'll move to representatives of
7 the Seminole County school system.
8 MS. McCORD: Commissioner, Mr. McCammon has
9 asked to reserve -- he has 3 or 4 minutes left,
10 he wants to make a few closing --
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So noted.
12 MR. JULIAN: If I may, Mr. Chairman,
13 members of the State Board of Education, my name
14 is Ned Julian. I represent the School Board of
15 Seminole County, Florida.
16 For the record, I would like to pose an
17 objection to the comments by Mr. Marshall.
18 I believe that they are outside the scope of the
19 appeal, and do not address the reason that we're
20 here.
21 The School Board of Seminole County,
22 Florida, does not consider this to be a
23 political decision. When the School Board
24 approves a charter school, it, in effect,
25 appropriates public tax dollars. And,
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1 therefore, the Legislature, in placing the
2 decision to approve or disapprove a charter
3 school application, has placed a significant
4 burden on a School Board.
5 In this case, the approval of the charter
6 would amount to the first year of an
7 appropriation of something more than 1 million
8 dollars.
9 When this matter was considered, the
10 School Board not only dealt with the form of the
11 application and the words placed on the paper,
12 but the person or persons that came before it.
13 As you know, in every decision, there's an
14 aspect of the words on a piece of paper, and
15 there -- there's an aspect of the credibility of
16 the people that place the words on that paper.
17 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
18 MR. JULIAN: And I would suggest to you
19 that historically, decisions of credibility have
20 always been assigned to the finder of fact.
21 In this case, the finder of fact is the
22 School Board of Seminole County, Florida. And I
23 would respectfully request that you respect and,
24 in fact, defer to the decision of the
25 School Board of Seminole County, Florida, in
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1 this matter.
2 As has been told to you, Mr. McCammon has
3 been in the School Board office almost daily
4 since July of 1996. And this is not the first
5 of Mr. McCammon's application.
6 (Attorney General Butterworth entered
7 room.)
8 MR. JULIAN: Mr. McCammon previously had an
9 application for a full high school, which was
10 withdrawn. Therefore, not only did the
11 School Board have an opportunity to get to know
12 Mr. McCammon during the time that he appeared
13 before it at informal meetings, the School Board
14 and the staff had ample opportunity to interact
15 with Mr. McCammon during the whole process.
16 And it's that opportunity to get to know
17 Mr. McCammon that gave rise to the
18 School Board's concern about the ability of
19 management. And the statute that we deal with,
20 Florida Statute 228.056 I believe it is,
21 subparagraph (9)(a)(9) addresses -- requires the
22 School Board to address the issue of the
23 management and financial expertise of the
24 applicant.
25 Now, since -- the Board has no quarrel --
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1 the School Board has no quarrel with the
2 concept. And I believe that is amply stated in
3 our response to the applicant's appeal.
4 The School Board has no quarrel, and,
5 in fact, has endorsed or adopted the concept of
6 charter schools. You have in the materials
7 presented to you a copy of the School Board's
8 policy, and the introduction to that policy is a
9 resolution by the School Board of
10 Seminole County, Florida, endorsing charter
11 schools.
12 So I would suggest to you that this is not
13 an aspect of hostility, not an aspect of being
14 arbitrary or capricious, but simply a decision
15 made by a School Board based on the material
16 presented before it that it has serious concerns
17 about the management and fiscal operation of the
18 school.
19 Now, I agree that sometimes newspaper
20 articles are -- maybe come out a little
21 different than people expect when they're
22 interviewed.
23 But in the material, you will have -- you
24 have a copy of the article that appeared in the
25 Orlando Sentinel. And the closing quote -- and
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1 this is a direct quote from Mr. McCammon. And
2 this is the type of information that
3 Mr. McCammon provided that gave the School Board
4 concern.
5 Mr. McCammon stated: I am a builder, I'm a
6 dreamer. When it comes to day-to-day
7 management, that's not my thing.
8 Now, Mr. McCammon is, and the record will
9 reflect, the day-to-day management of the
10 school. Mr. McCammon has indicated that he is
11 the Chief Executive Officer; that once -- should
12 the charter be approved, that he and a
13 bookkeeper, who will be employed in the home
14 office or the headquarters, will be the
15 individuals that ride herd on the day-to-day
16 expenditure of money. The charter application
17 provided that he was going to be the person who
18 would employ the initial principal and staff at
19 the school.
20 This is what causes the School Board
21 concern. If -- you have before you the
22 videotapes of both the work session and the
23 Board meeting. And there's a common thread or
24 theme that runs through all of those, and that
25 is the position stated by Mr. McCammon that he
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1 is an entrepreneur, and that this is an
2 entrepreneurial adventure from his standpoint,
3 and that the tax dollars that he is asking the
4 School Board of Seminole County to appropriate
5 to him is basically risk venture capital.
6 And the School Board simply submits that
7 the education of children, be it in a public
8 school, be it in a charter school, or some other
9 venue, is a very serious matter, should not be
10 taken lightly, and the expenditure of tax funds
11 should not be taken lightly, that education is
12 not entrepreneurial, and that tax funds are not
13 venture capital.
14 In addressing the specific errors that
15 Mr. McCammon cited in his appeal -- or that
16 Florida Charter School cited in its appeal -- I
17 would suggest to you, one, that the charter
18 school law does not require a public hearing for
19 the approval of the application.
20 Seminole County is a little different.
21 We've decided to do a public hearing, both
22 before the time of the application, and at the
23 time of the charter. So there is no legal basis
24 to Mr. McCammon's complaint that he was denied
25 due process.
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1 You have the videotapes of both the work
2 session and the meeting. Both of those meetings
3 will indicate to you that Mr. McCammon had ample
4 opportunity to appear before the Board, present
5 his position, and to respond to the
6 recommendation of the superintendent.
7 The process was exhaustive. There was no
8 denial of due process, there was no denial of an
9 opportunity to respond. Mr. McCammon wants to
10 talk about the notice being short.
11 I would suggest to you that that's fine,
12 except Mr. McCammon was at the meeting.
13 Mr. McCammon addressed the application, and
14 addressed the Superintendent's response, and had
15 ample opportunity all along the way to present
16 his position, and to receive and enter into
17 dialogue to the School Board.
18 The decision of the School Board in the
19 final analysis in rejecting the application was
20 not arbitrary, and was not capricious. It was
21 simply based on a well-founded belief by the
22 individuals who were assigned the responsibility
23 for making the decision by the School Board,
24 that management was not as capable as we would
25 expect for a project which would like to have
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1 one million thirty-five thousand dollars in
2 public funds.
3 Now, what I'd like to do is defer to
4 Mrs. Robinson, who is the Chairman of the
5 School Board. Mrs. Robinson has some comments
6 that she would like to make, then I may have
7 some brief comments following hers.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Ms. Robinson?
9 MS. ROBINSON: When I originally wrote my
10 speech, it said good morning. It's now good
11 afternoon.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Evening is --
13 MS. ROBINSON: Good evening, Cabinet
14 members, and Madam Chairman.
15 It's a pleasure to have the opportunity to
16 talk to you this afternoon.
17 I have been a member of the Seminole County
18 School Board since 1990, and I have served three
19 consecutive terms as Chairman.
20 I am very proud to say that Seminole County
21 looks upon itself as a leader. I feel that we
22 are proactive; innovative; cooperative; and
23 willing, very willing to step out and take the
24 lead whenever the opportunity presents itself,
25 the right opportunity.
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1 We were one of the first counties last
2 summer to raise our graduation standards because
3 we have such high expectations for our
4 students. We have already instructed our
5 principals to report all disciplinary acts to
6 school resource officers in anticipation of laws
7 that are going to be passed this year.
8 And we have also already added
9 40 additional teachers to reduce class size this
10 year within our existing budgets. So we are a
11 leader. We are trying to set the curve, not be
12 ahead of the curve.
13 When the charter school law was passed last
14 session, we immediately contacted Florida
15 School Board Association for on-site training to
16 help us understand the process and give us
17 guidance in drafting our policy.
18 We received other District's policies for
19 review, and met extensively with our Business
20 Advisory Board, which I serve as a liaison to
21 during monthly meetings to review our
22 anticipated policy.
23 The policy that we ultimately adopted
24 mirrors the criteria established by the law for
25 charter schools. And along with that policy, we
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1 readily adopted a resolution endorsing the
2 concept of charter schools for Seminole County
3 schools.
4 We have been working long and hard with
5 Florida Charter, Inc.; i.e., Don McCammon. He
6 presented his first proposal to us in the fall
7 of '96, asking to use a portion of our new
8 high school.
9 That application was withdrawn by
10 Florida Charter, Inc., after much debate; and a
11 second proposal was then submitted to do a night
12 school using a portion of our brand new
13 high school campus.
14 His educational plan is innovative. I will
15 admit, I gave him the idea for his educational
16 plan. And it is designed to meet the needs of
17 at-risk students, which we are very concerned
18 about in our county, as other counties are.
19 Our concern for Florida Charter, Inc.,
20 Franklin High School Charter School, falls under
21 the criteria of the Florida Statute
22 2280.056(9)(a) (sic), which is the financial and
23 administrative management of schools.
24 We continually expressed our concern about
25 Florida Charter, Inc., concerning the Board of
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1 Directors, and each of those members receiving
2 compensation; lack of start-up funds; and,
3 finally, with Mr. McCammon as the CEO. He has
4 no strong record of business success, and very
5 little credibility in the financial arena.
6 Our Board does not take lightly the task
7 before us of allocating taxpayer dollars, in
8 this case, over a million dollars, to a
9 management team that had such a poor track
10 record.
11 We believe in competition. We welcome it,
12 understanding that we will all be better for
13 it. We also understand our responsibilities as
14 elected officials to our community, and most of
15 all to our students. These are our students,
16 whether they're in the Franklin Charter School,
17 or they're in Lake Brantley High School or
18 Lake Mary High School.
19 The bottom line for me was very simple, and
20 I did a lot of agonizing thought process over
21 this, and I consulted my unpaid advisor, who is
22 my husband.
23 And I said, I'm having a tough time with
24 this because in my final decision making
25 process, I separated out the educational
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1 portion, and then the management portion.
2 And my final thought was -- and his -- as
3 his advice to me was: If this was our money, if
4 it was our personal money, would you do business
5 with this company. And my answer was
6 unequivocally no.
7 So why would I then, as an elected
8 official, take someone else's money, the
9 taxpayer's money, and do business with a company
10 that I had no personal confidence in.
11 I thank you for the opportunity to speak
12 this afternoon. And I sincerely hope that you
13 will uphold the decision of the local governing
14 body on this charter school.
15 Thank you.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
17 Ms. Robinson.
18 Mr. Julian, did you have any --
19 MR. JULIAN: Briefly.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- closing remarks?
21 Yes, sir.
22 MR. JULIAN: Very briefly.
23 I wrote some words down as I was thinking
24 about my appearance here today.
25 One of the words I wrote was the burden.
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1 The Legislature has placed the burden for the
2 determination as to whether or not a charter
3 should be granted on local public officials.
4 And that is because the local public
5 officials are the people who know with whom they
6 deal. The School Board of Seminole County has
7 made a decision, and we would respect -- or it
8 would respect that you defer to its decision.
9 The concept. The School Board of
10 Seminole County, Florida, has no quibble, no
11 disagreement, no hostility to the concept of
12 charter schools. Hence the resolution.
13 The policy. The policy that the
14 School Board of Seminole County, Florida,
15 adopted mirrors the law. The School Board did
16 not impose a burden upon any applicant that was
17 not established by the law.
18 And on two points I'd like to mention.
19 There was a great debate, and it's probably
20 still going on, and I know it's going on in the
21 Legislature, because I know there's legislation
22 that's been presented to deal with the issue of
23 do you charge a charter school that uses a
24 school facility rent. And the legislation
25 proposes no.
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1 Seminole County has come to grips with
2 that, and the School Board did wrestle with
3 that, and the School Board decided no. If you
4 have a surplus facility that's not being used by
5 the School Board, why would you charge a charter
6 school money for a facility that's already been
7 paid for by the taxpayers? I mean, a charter
8 school is part of the concept of
9 public education.
10 So the School Board of Seminole County, as
11 Mrs. Robinson said, we're setting the curve, we
12 don't charge, and have no intention.
13 The next issue is a window. There's a lot
14 of discussion about windows. And in the
15 legislation that's before the Legislature now,
16 they want to abolish or widen windows, because
17 the thought is that if you have a window that
18 you can only file your applications after the
19 first full moon in January, then that will
20 inhibit -- or discourage people from filing
21 applications.
22 School Board said, good point. We have no
23 window. There is no window for filing in the
24 Seminole County School policy. We'll take them
25 as they come, we'll evaluate the applications on
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1 their own two feet, and we'll vote them up or
2 we'll vote them down.
3 The decision, as I've said before, is
4 serious. In this case, the program, we're not
5 debating the program. As I said in my response,
6 the School Board found that the program has
7 merit. Our argument, our quarrel is not with
8 the program.
9 Our concern is with a reasonable
10 probability of this management and financial
11 success of the proposal.
12 Now, public bodies sometimes are
13 interesting because they don't see the forest
14 for the trees. Public bodies have many times
15 been accused of being short-sighted or
16 nearsighted, or blind to reality.
17 The School Board of Seminole County has
18 created an interesting body to give it advice,
19 known as the Business Advisory Board. And the
20 members consist of John Howell, who is an
21 attorney with Maguire, Voorhees and Wells;
22 George Cosmac, who is the senior management with
23 AT&T; John Tracy, who is senior management with
24 Cincinnati Bell; Stuart Farb, who is an
25 investment counselor; Ronnie Clayton,
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1 Dr. Ronnie Clayton, who's a professor at the
2 University of Central Florida Business School;
3 Charles Rowe, who is the Director of Community
4 Involvement for the City of Sanford, to help it
5 make decisions.
6 And when decisions like this come to the
7 School Board, it defers or asks the Business
8 Advisory Board for its input.
9 And you will see as you view the tape the
10 input that it would receive. And the Business
11 Advisory Board had concerns. Therefore, in view
12 of that, I think it further supports, or
13 substantiates the position that this decision
14 was not made by the School Board in a manner
15 that was arbitrary, in a manner that was
16 capricious, or in a manner that was hostile to
17 charter schools, or even the concept of this
18 charter school.
19 Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
21 Mr. Julian.
22 Mr. McCammon, you can use your remaining
23 time at this point, or save it. Your call.
24 MR. McCAMMON: I would like to go ahead and
25 rebut, if I could.
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1 They've questioned really clearly not our
2 application or the merits of our application,
3 but more my qualifications and the
4 qualifications of our Board. I think we need to
5 address that briefly.
6 Again, if they had looked at the business
7 background, which they did not look at, they
8 would have found that I've created two companies
9 in central Florida over the last 22 years that
10 have contributed millions of dollars to the
11 local economy.
12 One company's been in successful,
13 continuous operation since 1975, the Orlando
14 Racquet Club. Former Representative Nelson
15 might remember tournaments that we've had
16 there. The First Lady's Tournament, if you're a
17 tennis player, was won -- the first tournament
18 in the United States won by Martina Navratilova.
19 A second company I started in 1981 with my
20 wife, known as Mom's Best Cookies, we built from
21 home into a multimillion dollar company. That
22 had a 60 percent growth rate, I was CEO of that
23 company. It was very successful.
24 I left that company after about six years
25 in 1988 when my wife and I divorced.
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1 We also contributed, interestingly, in that
2 company, a great deal to local charities,
3 including the Kairos Ministry in Florida
4 prisons. And that ministry's been credited with
5 greatly reducing violence in Florida prisons.
6 Those two companies continue to exist. As
7 I say, they've contributed hundreds of jobs to
8 central Florida over many years, and I'm very
9 proud of my role in those companies.
10 I'm concerned again that they're making
11 arbitrary decisions about credibility or trust
12 without having done due diligence. I have
13 privileges with the University Behavior Center,
14 which is a private psychiatric hospital, which
15 is required to go by JCAH standards.
16 I have privileges with the Devereux Florida
17 Treatment Network, I've worked extensively with
18 children. They had to do quite extensive
19 background checks with my credentials and
20 credibility before I get those privileges. The
21 School Board did not do those background checks.
22 So once again, I respect the fact that they
23 can do that. However, they weren't done.
24 We have some outstanding other people on
25 our Board, Dr. John Allen, who's a very
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1 successful business person. So it bothers me to
2 hear -- to say about management.
3 Again, we offered to give them an audited
4 financial statement, which is not required by
5 the law, by the firm of Coopers & Lybrand. Five
6 hundred dollar -- five hundred thousand dollar
7 fidelity bonds on every person that signs
8 checks. So we've gone over and above to try and
9 reassure them that they're going to have the
10 ability to check on our management, and will
11 also give monthly financial statements. Our
12 books are open 24 hours a day.
13 He stated that I'm an entrepreneur. That's
14 probably true. I am an entrepreneur. I
15 consider this an educational entrepreneur
16 opportunity in the state of Florida, not to make
17 a profit. In fact, I'm going to make less
18 money. I will be a full-time employee of the
19 school. My first year salary -- not of the
20 school -- excuse me -- of the corporation.
21 He mentioned that I said I'm a dreamer and
22 a builder. True. That's part of -- I'm behind
23 this effort. I've also put a great deal of
24 detail in it, and I've completed all the
25 doctorate courses toward a curriculum and
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1 instruction degree, and have a Master's in
2 education.
3 I've also worked as a teacher, and worked
4 extensively in their schools doing volunteer
5 counseling groups for their at-risk students.
6 That pretty much wraps it up. I should
7 also say that if they are that concerned about
8 who manages the school, I'm curious why they
9 didn't do management checks on two other
10 applications in their county, why they didn't
11 receive resumes on one of those applications,
12 why they didn't even have a listing of the
13 officers of one of those applications, yet went
14 ahead and approved them.
15 Also, none of the directors in one of the
16 applications had any experience in working with
17 at-risk kids, which was the subject. So if
18 they're that concerned about the -- their
19 children, and that concerned about management,
20 again, we have a double standard and they have
21 not given us an opportunity to really look at
22 our capability.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
24 Mr. McCammon.
25 At this point, we'll open it up for
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1 questions from members of the State Board.
2 I see leaning.
3 Are there questions associated with that
4 posture?
5 General Milligan.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I -- you know,
7 it -- I don't have any questions really. But
8 obviously this is a -- is a serious item that
9 we're considering. And we are to look at the
10 written and oral arguments. And I have tried to
11 do that to the best of my ability.
12 And have reached the -- the conclusion that
13 I believe we as a -- as a body should reject the
14 appeal.
15 And so I will make a motion to that effect,
16 that we reject the appeal.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I have a motion and a
19 second.
20 Further discussion?
21 Secretary?
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I think I have a
23 question of you.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Are you allowed to do
25 that?
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Why not?
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: The statute as passed
3 by the Legislature and signed by the Governor,
4 is there anything in that statute that precludes
5 entrepreneurial ventures in the area of charter
6 schools?
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary, I would
8 have to answer that no. As a matter of fact, I
9 would suggest that, depending on how you define
10 the word entrepreneurialism, we probably engage
11 in that to a great degree in public education.
12 It's not the corporate term entrepreneurialism
13 that we know.
14 But if you look at some of the creative
15 entities such as charter schools or magnet
16 schools, theme schools, and a variety of other
17 programs, I suppose loosely defined, they could
18 be considered entrepreneurial in nature. And no
19 doubt, again, using corporate terminology, do
20 use some degree of venture capital to establish
21 them and operate them.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. And maybe to
23 your attorney, who is starting towards the --
24 MR. OLENICK: Getting to be a habit.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- the mike.
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1 Mike --
2 MR. OLENICK: May I just answer that, if
3 it's appropriate?
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yes.
5 MR. OLENICK: The statute says that a
6 charter school shall organize a not for profit.
7 I just wanted to make that distinction. There's
8 nothing in there prohibiting an entrepreneur.
9 But the entity needs to be a nonprofit
10 corporation.
11 I'm sorry.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: That's very good. That
13 answers that question.
14 And my other question would be: Are there
15 any other charter schools in Seminole County?
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The answer to that --
17 we'll leave to Mr. Julian. But I believe the
18 answer is that --
19 MR. JULIAN: The answer is yes.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- been approved.
21 MR. JULIAN: Two.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. We have a
24 motion and a second on the floor.
25 Any further questions or discussions?
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1 Hearing none, without objection, the motion
2 passes.
3 So we will write this all up and send it
4 back to the Seminole County School System,
5 remembering again, that ours is not final, only
6 in that we are recommending one way or the other
7 back to the school system, recommending that
8 they reconsider, or recommending that, in this
9 case, we support the denial.
10 So that will be the case.
11 Commissioner.
12 TREASURER NELSON: Since we're venturing
13 into new territory here under a new statute that
14 has set up this appellate procedure, my
15 attention has been called to what was read to us
16 sitting as the Board of Education about the
17 appellate procedure, that the record of this
18 proceeding -- proceeding is limited to written
19 arguments, the charter application, and the
20 transcript of the meetings before the District
21 School Board. And then that the oral argument
22 is to be given, alotted 30 minutes each side.
23 Now, as I understand, our Cabinet aides had
24 a considerable discussion with attorneys for
25 your Department, as well as the -- one of the
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1 Assistant Attorney Generals over the question of
2 whether we sit as an appellate board, and,
3 therefore, in a quasi-judicial posture should
4 not have ex parte communications coming to us.
5 And the advice was to our Cabinet aides
6 that we should not have those ex parte
7 communications.
8 Well, you know, this next issue that's
9 coming before us is in the District that I used
10 to represent in Congress, and, of course, all
11 these people are very accustomed to having
12 access to me.
13 And yet what we've been advised is that
14 sitting as an appellate process, that we cannot
15 have these ex parte communications.
16 So I would ask that -- that we get some
17 ultimate conclusion on this matter, since we're
18 going to be handling a lot of these charter
19 school appeals in the future.
20 I have governed myself accordingly to the
21 advice given to our Cabinet aides, which was
22 that we should not have ex parte communications.
23 And so I would hope we'll have a
24 clarification on that in the future.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We can do that,
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1 Commissioner. I know, I, too, have used that
2 same rule of thumb as far as ex parte
3 communication in light of the quasi-judicial
4 process in which I really believe we're
5 engaged.
6 And I believe probably most, if not all, of
7 the Cabinet members have done that. We have
8 approached this very similarly to how we
9 approach other Cabinet issues that require us to
10 sit in some formal fashion and vote and don't
11 have ex parte communication.
12 We will move into the next appeal process.
13 Now, I'd like to remind both sides that
14 while 30 minutes are allotted, there are no
15 extra points given for use of said 30 minutes.
16 That having been said, we acknowledge your
17 right to use them based on the process that
18 we've developed.
19 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.)
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: This particular
21 denial is from the Brevard County School Board.
22 Cocoa Academy for Aerospace Technology.
23 And we will hear from the Aerospace
24 Technology Academy representatives.
25 Mr. Boyd?
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1 MR. BOYD: Thank you.
2 Commissioner, Cabinet members. My name is
3 Bob Boyd, and I represent Cocoa Academy for
4 Aerospace Technology. It is a mouthful. I'll
5 just either call it the Academy, or they also
6 call it CAAT in that district.
7 Also I would like to -- I'm going to speak
8 about 10 minutes. Dr. Alexandra Penn, who is
9 the Director of this Academy, is going to speak
10 about 10 minutes. And if so, we would like to
11 reserve some rebuttal time if we need it.
12 She also has some students from the Academy
13 here today that she would just have stand up and
14 introduce when she speaks. She is going to
15 speak about our brief on appeal and to the
16 record and why we think that this Academy is a
17 school within a school.
18 In contrast to the first appeal, this is a
19 conversion of a school within a school, and
20 I believe -- I know this is the first appeal
21 ever of a conversion. But I believe this is the
22 first conversion in Florida.
23 And -- and also speaking to what the
24 Commiss-- Commissioner Nelson said, I'm limited
25 to talk about the specific areas of the
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1 School Board, and I'm going to do so.
2 And specifically, we think there's a number
3 of errors committed by the Brevard County School
4 Board in this case.
5 Number one, we believe they committed
6 error, and had no legal basis to deny this
7 conversion to a charter school status because of
8 this Academy's unique classification, if you
9 will, as a school within a school. It's status
10 as a school within a school.
11 The Superintendent issued a recommendation
12 before the School Board meeting that the faculty
13 vote against this conversion because -- or
14 this -- that the School Board vote against this
15 conversion, because the faculty voted against
16 the proposed conversion by an 81 percent
17 majority.
18 As you'll remember, under the law, there
19 needs to be a 50 percent vote by the teachers,
20 and a 50 percent vote by the parents of the
21 high school that's converting.
22 And he basically said in his
23 recommendation, and I'm paraphrasing, that since
24 there was an 80 percent -- 81 percent majority
25 of faculty that voted against it, that it could
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1 not convert, and there was no legal basis for
2 conversion.
3 Also, he said in his recommendation that a
4 school cannot convert if that school does not
5 exist. And his conclusion was that CAAT -- this
6 Academy was not a school.
7 In his -- in the transcript, you'll see,
8 and in the Superintendent's comments at the
9 School Board meeting, he basically said, the
10 application is not the issue here. The
11 application is fine.
12 What is at issue here is the legal issue of
13 whether this Academy can convert to a charter
14 school status, and that's under
15 Section 228.056(3) where we talk about
16 conversion. So, therefore, there's a couple of
17 legal issues.
18 The first is, what is this Academy. And
19 again, Dr. Penn's going to speak to that. But
20 this --
21 (Comptroller Milligan entered the room.)
22 MR. BOYD: -- Academy was funded under a
23 section of the Statute, 233.068(2)(a) as a
24 separate academy. And what they're called is
25 Academies for Career Development and Applied
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1 Technology.
2 I believe there's 30 of them in Florida
3 right now. They were funded separately under a
4 separate budget request. They have to meet
5 specific rigorous criteria under the statute.
6 For example, they have to provide free
7 transportation to their students. They have to
8 offer programs that allow their students to get
9 a high school diploma. So this is a specific
10 academy that they talk about in the statutes.
11 When my client, this Academy, put the
12 question to its teachers, and its parents
13 whether it should convert to charter school
14 status, the vote was 100 percent by the teachers
15 at the Academy, and a 96 percent vote by the
16 parents of the kids at the Academy that they
17 wanted to convert.
18 We would argue that that is the vote that
19 counts, not the vote of the entire school.
20 Cocoa High School --
21 TREASURER NELSON: What was the vote of the
22 entire school?
23 MR. BOYD: The vote of the entire school
24 was 81 percent of the faculty voted no. But
25 over 80 percent of the parents voted yes.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Of the entire
2 Cocoa High School.
3 MR. BOYD: The entire school, yes, sir.
4 We would argue legally that what counts is
5 the vote of the parents and the teachers of the
6 Academy.
7 And, again, Cocoa High School is not the
8 body that's trying to convert. It's just this
9 Academy, which is a school within a school. It
10 has a separate campus, basically a separate
11 building that's attached to this high school.
12 The other members of the School Board in a
13 3 to 2 vote -- and that was the vote at the
14 School Board hearing against us -- expressed
15 their concerns -- other School Board members --
16 that they thought they didn't have the legal
17 authority to allow this conversion.
18 I would argue that because of how CAAT is
19 funded, and the criteria that it has to meet,
20 that it is a school within a school. And it was
21 formed as one of these open entry programs, and,
22 therefore, should be able to convert to charter
23 school status.
24 In my exhibits to my brief, Exhibit A, I go
25 through a number of documents that try to prove
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1 this point. First of all, the Department of
2 Education specifically defines these academies
3 as schools within a school. In their --
4 their -- their -- there's an RFP in there, and
5 there's other documents where they specifically
6 define Academies for Career Development and
7 Applied Technology as schools within a school.
8 Now, there's a point that comes up that the
9 statute doesn't use the word academy. It uses
10 the word program, open entry program. But if
11 you'll see in Exhibit A, the words programs and
12 academies are used interchangeably by the
13 Department of Education.
14 Moreover, in a news release from
15 Commissioner Castor where the first 15 of these
16 academies that were opened in Florida were
17 announced, they used the word school within a
18 school, and mentioned this Cocoa Academy for
19 Aerospace Technology.
20 Finally, to make the point, in the RFP,
21 2.1 of the RFP, the Department of Education
22 defined these academies and institutes as
23 schools within a school.
24 So, again, we would argue that what counts
25 here is the vote of the faculty -- not the
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1 faculty -- the teachers and the parents of the
2 students going to the Academy. And that's
3 what -- that's what should count when we talk
4 about conversion.
5 So, therefore, given this unique status, we
6 would -- we would argue that this school be
7 allowed to convert. This is not a special
8 program or a -- we were compared at the
9 School Board hearing to a first grade class.
10 The superintendent made the comment that if
11 you allow this Academy to convert, what's
12 stopping a first grade class from converting, or
13 a special vocational program from converting.
14 The answer is simple. We have to meet
15 these nine rigorous criteria under the statute.
16 And if you don't meet those criteria, you can't
17 be called an academy. And -- or a school within
18 a school.
19 The second legal point is simply that we
20 get to the issue of legislative intent. Did the
21 Legislature intend to allow this to happen.
22 I would argue that the Legislature, when
23 they tend to draft broader laws, did not foresee
24 this happening, of a school within a school
25 converting.
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1 And what I would argue then is I would
2 point you to the Exhibit B of the transcript,
3 which is a DOE, Department of Education,
4 proposed rule, a Board -- State Board of
5 Education rule that allows this to happen.
6 It's well established under Florida law.
7 It's called the Doctrine of Contemporaneous
8 Construction, that the body that administers the
9 law or the statute, in this case, the Department
10 of Education, that body construes this statute,
11 if it's ambiguous, and that construction is
12 persuasive as to what the statute means.
13 So I would argue that that proposed rule is
14 persuasive in construing what the statute means
15 if it's ambiguous.
16 Now, you may say, well, this is only a
17 proposed rule. But I would argue that agencies
18 make policy, incipient policy, they establish
19 guidelines without even adopting rules.
20 So I would argue that if the Department of
21 Education feels in their proposed rule, which I
22 received through a public records request, that
23 this should -- this should be allowed to happen,
24 that that is persuasive argument as to what the
25 statute really means.
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1 Finally -- the final legal point would be a
2 point about equity and common sense and public
3 policy. We believe that it's good common sense
4 to allow this school within a school to
5 convert. If it doesn't have the opportunity to
6 convert, it will cease to exist.
7 These academies were funded for a period of
8 three to four years, and this program, as
9 Dr. Penn will talk about, cannot easily be
10 integrated into Cocoa High School.
11 Therefore, the community and the County
12 will lose this school. And we believe that it's
13 only good common sense and fair to allow this to
14 happen, given the fact that it's got to meet
15 these nine criteria that include -- and one of
16 those -- one of these criteria -- I have not met
17 one of these criterion, is it's got to assess
18 the progress of students regularly to assure
19 their academic skills favorably with similar
20 students, and use standardized tests, unexcused
21 absences, dropouts, and grade point averages.
22 So you'll see that this is not a simple
23 vocational or alternative program. It's a
24 school within a school.
25 Now, I've used a lot of -- I've thrown
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1 around the word school within a school
2 throughout my talk here, but -- and a school
3 within a school could mean many things.
4 But one thing it really does mean is a
5 school. It is a school. And to exclude it from
6 conversion would be a travesty in this case.
7 Finally, there is an amendment to the
8 School Board's brief in response to my brief,
9 and it's an opinion from the Department of
10 Education, an attorney, about whether there is
11 legal authority to do this.
12 And I would argue that that is, first of
13 all, not part of the record, because it wasn't
14 offered at the School Board hearing, so you
15 shouldn't consider it; but, secondly, that it
16 was written prematurely before this issue was
17 discussed with both sides; and, finally, I don't
18 think this person really understood what this
19 academy is; that is, a school within a school,
20 meeting these criteria.
21 Also it was a preliminary review. And I --
22 I would subject to you that if you look at this
23 law, it would be a travesty to not allow this
24 conversion.
25 And, again, I would like -- ask that
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1 Dr. Penn, who's the Director of this Academy,
2 come up here and speak, and just point out the
3 students that are here today --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Mr. Boyd, before --
5 MR. BOYD: -- from the Academy.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- you -- before you
7 leave the podium --
8 MR. BOYD: Yes, sir.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and I suppose I
10 could ask this of anyone who will follow you on
11 either side of this issue.
12 The entire faculty and staff were polled.
13 MR. BOYD: Yes, sir.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And yet it was
15 determined that this -- in the feeling of the
16 people who are in the school is a school within
17 a school.
18 Where was the determination made, and where
19 during the process, that everyone would be
20 polled and surveyed --
21 MR. BOYD: Well -- I'm sorry. Just to
22 answer that, and I'm going to have Dr. Penn
23 answer it also.
24 But, first of all, the statute doesn't say
25 faculty. It says that you should poll the
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1 teachers. But I know at some point the teachers
2 of the entire high school were polled, and they
3 voted no by an 81 percent margin.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's --
5 MR. BOYD: And then the parents were polled
6 of the entire school, and they voted yes by more
7 than an 80 --
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Fair enough. But I'm
9 trying to determine --
10 MR. BOYD: When.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and by whom.
12 I mean, how was that triggered, who directed the
13 polling --
14 MR. BOYD: I will direct that to my
15 client.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Very fine.
17 MR. BOYD: Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Ms. Penn?
19 DR. PENN: Would you like me to answer that
20 question now, or would you like me to --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: You may introduce
22 your charges first. That would be fine.
23 DR. PENN: Okay. Thank you.
24 My name is Dr. Alexandra Penn, and I'm the
25 Coordinator of the Academy for Aerospace
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1 Technology since its inception nearly four years
2 ago.
3 I wanted to address you this -- this
4 morning -- but it's now this afternoon, to try
5 and clarify the Academy's status as a school,
6 not from a legal perspective, but from that of
7 an educator.
8 And it -- it was sort of a surprise to me
9 when I arrived this morning, and I saw so many
10 of -- of my students here. And these are young
11 men from the Academy for Aerospace Technology at
12 various -- various grade levels.
13 We also have a parent with us this
14 afternoon, and a concerned community member.
15 And if you guys wouldn't mind standing up, and
16 just --
17 Yeah. There we go.
18 Thank you.
19 The Academy is a school within a school,
20 and I've passed out some photographs showing
21 that it is a stand-alone, 14,000 square foot
22 building on Cocoa High School's campus.
23 As you will note, it has a separate
24 entrance from the road, it has a separate
25 parking lot, and various other separate phone
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1 system, P.A. system.
2 I should also point out that it is on a
3 campus that was designed for 2,000 students, and
4 the student -- the -- there are only
5 1100 students right now that that school serves.
6 It -- the Cocoa County is a national leader
7 in the development and application of a separate
8 and independent curriculum which integrates
9 secondary school, academic, and vocational
10 education.
11 And if you will notice also in your
12 handout, I just -- I gave you a little brochure
13 of a book that has just been published by the
14 Association for Supervision and Curriculum
15 Development that was written by me and a
16 co-author, which is about this very special
17 program in Florida.
18 We are a state leader in the development
19 and application of school to work programs in
20 which students participate in work site learning
21 experiences in a kind of corporate simulator.
22 And if you will notice, there is also a
23 letter from a superintendent from a -- a
24 district in New Jersey. We have done a lot of
25 teacher training, and there are districts all
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1 over this country that are now using a model
2 that we use called virtual learning, which
3 seamlessly integrates academic and vocational
4 education.
5 We are a break-the-mold school which
6 utilizes flexible scheduling, collaborative
7 teaching, and industry standard technologies to
8 ready students for college in the 21st century
9 workplace.
10 There are no bells, there are no separate
11 classes. We work in a -- in a block kind of
12 schedule in which academic and vocational
13 classes are integrated through projects that the
14 students are doing in -- in their labs.
15 We are endorsed by the City of Cocoa, its
16 educational task force, and we are endorsed by
17 the parents of Cocoa High School by, as was
18 said, an 80-20 vote.
19 We are supported by Florida's major
20 aerospace corporations, we are supported by --
21 even by the Brevard County School Board, as seen
22 by letters that were written previous to our
23 application for conversion.
24 A good choice -- we are also a good school
25 of choice for parents whose students want an
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1 alternative to the traditional high school.
2 I understand how important it is for you to
3 vote responsibly and in accordance with the
4 law. As you review the letter of the law,
5 please also consider the spirit of the law as it
6 relates the human factor and the Cocoa Academy's
7 very special circumstance.
8 While some schools may be able to wait
9 until charter school law is clarified or
10 amended, the Academy for Aerospace Technology
11 will not exist another school year. In fact,
12 while we speak, students are being registered
13 for Cocoa High School's -- in Cocoa High School
14 classes outside of the Academy.
15 If it is not awarded charter school status,
16 Superintendent Sawyer and the Cocoa High
17 administration have said that the Academy will
18 be, quote, unquote, integrated into the
19 traditional school.
20 Simply said, the Academy will be shut
21 down. For trying to integrate this
22 break-the-mold school into a traditional
23 high school system would be like trying to bake
24 a cake, an entire cake, in a little muffin pan.
25 What you would get is a series of little
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1 muffins, not a large cake.
2 Over the last four years, CAAT has been
3 awarded over 1 million dollars in grant money to
4 create an Academy for Applied Technology, a
5 school within a school, that prepares students
6 to work and to continue their education.
7 The Brevard County School Board and CAAT
8 have taken this funding with the agreement that
9 they would continue to follow the tenets of what
10 educational research has shown to be effective
11 in preparing high school students for the
12 21st century.
13 Shutting the Academy down will not only lay
14 waste to taxpayer resources, but it will also
15 lay waste to hundreds of young minds.
16 There is much discussion about the need for
17 school reform. Academies for Applied Technology
18 granted under Florida Statute 233.068 provide
19 good beginnings for school improvement. A yes
20 vote for CAAT is a yes vote for the other
21 29 academies around the state which have already
22 been funded.
23 Charter school status would give these rare
24 and fragile pilots a chance to thrive by
25 allowing them, should they choose, to get out
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1 from under the bureaucratic pressures which have
2 historically stifled innovative programs,
3 programs that can make a difference in
4 children's lives.
5 Last year, Florida took a bold step with
6 its endorsement of charter school law. The
7 Cocoa Academy for Aerospace Technology is the
8 embodiment of that law in that it offers parents
9 and their children a choice. It has broken away
10 from the traditional design of secondary
11 schools, and it strives for quality, along with
12 innovation.
13 Without charter conversion, one of
14 Florida's shining stars will be extinguished.
15 Please recommend that our local School Board
16 revisit our application. With your
17 recommendations, perhaps we will be able to more
18 easily convince them that granting autonomy to
19 120 students, six teachers, and one small
20 building in a campus designed for 2,000, and
21 presently serving only 1100 students, will not,
22 cannot threaten local School Board control or
23 resources.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, Dr. Penn.
25 And I will now ask, again, the question --
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1 and if the -- if the folks from Brevard County
2 have a different spin on this, I'll be glad to
3 hear that, too.
4 But the vote was a vote of the entire
5 faculty and staff, the entire parent body. At
6 what point was that determination made, and by
7 whom?
8 DR. PENN: The -- at the determination of
9 the superintendent, who requested that the
10 entire school vote.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And was that -- at
12 what point during the application process; do
13 you recall?
14 DR. PENN: It was at the -- the application
15 was already submitted. And as I recall -- my
16 letter -- there's a cover letter for my
17 application, and it stated that we were going to
18 be polling the entire school.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I guess my question
20 is: At any point, did you request a poll of
21 just those involved in the Academy --
22 DR. PENN: That had already been done.
23 Yes, we had already done that. We had done that
24 in our first application, which was denied.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So that was prior
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1 to --
2 DR. PENN: Yes, it was done --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the Brevard poll.
4 DR. PENN: -- in the summer. But it was of
5 the same parents and the same teachers who were
6 with the Academy --
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And --
8 DR. PENN: -- school --
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- Dr. Penn, trying
10 to recollect my visit, it's been a while now.
11 DR. PENN: Yes.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The students in the
13 Academy are involved in some courses in the
14 traditional school itself; are they not?
15 In other words, while it is a stand-alone
16 facility with much of the course work standing
17 alone within the Academy, there is interaction
18 between the students of the Academy and the
19 traditional teachers, traditional campus.
20 DR. PENN: Yeah. Presently they are taking
21 classes outside of the Academy because we have
22 them right now only for five periods, and
23 they -- we're running on a seven-period day.
24 So they either go to their on-the-job
25 training, or work study program, or they attend
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1 the sixth and seventh period in the
2 traditional --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Under the --
4 DR. PENN: -- high school.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- proposal, would
6 they continue to avail themselves of the
7 traditional classrooms and --
8 DR. PENN: No. And the reason for that is
9 because during our first proposal, the
10 Cocoa High School administration felt that it
11 would -- it would -- it would be a conflict of
12 interest if there -- if we had a reciprocity
13 between the two schools.
14 And so in our second proposal, we proposed
15 to have the students for -- for the entire
16 school day. And to offer all of the electives.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So they would be in a
18 position to acquire all 24 credits with -- in a
19 completely self-contained academy setting.
20 DR. PENN: Yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Under the proposal.
22 DR. PENN: Yes, sir.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: If that was the
24 determination -- and, again, I'm going to give
25 everybody a chance to answer this one. But this
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1 one has sort of confounded me from the
2 beginning.
3 If that was the determination, was that
4 offered with a degree of success? In other
5 words, was the school and the district, were
6 they willing to accept the Academy as a
7 completely freestanding and nonreciprocal
8 entity?
9 DR. PENN: Yes. In fact, there have been
10 several School Board members who have said, if
11 we could just possibly move off of
12 Cocoa High School's campus, they would be very,
13 very happy to approve the school.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well then, I go back
15 to my original question, and, again, I'll give
16 Brevard a chance to answer this, too.
17 But if, in fact, the application is written
18 on a completely self-contained, stand-alone
19 program, with no interface -- I recognize what a
20 campus is, so I put no interface in quotes,
21 obviously.
22 -- why in your opinion, again, were all of
23 the faculty and all of the parents polled
24 regarding this issue?
25 DR. PENN: I don't think I can answer
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1 that. Possibly the --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Fair enough.
3 DR. PENN: -- the Superintendent may be
4 able to answer that. I know it was a -- it was
5 an -- it was something that was in their
6 policies and procedures, they wrote into their
7 policies and procedures.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Fair enough.
9 Other questions of the members, and then
10 we'll --
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
12 Commissioner --
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- just --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: General.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- just one
17 quick one.
18 You -- everyone keeps referring to this as
19 a school within a school. But it appears from
20 what you have stated, and also from your
21 handout, it says you're a separate, stand-alone
22 14,000 square foot building that was not being
23 fully utilized.
24 So you are now utilizing this previously
25 unutilized building, and you're the sole
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1 occupant of that particular building?
2 DR. PENN: That's correct. There was also
3 $365,000 that we given -- that we won through an
4 RFP of a technology and science integration
5 facilities. And the building, which is a Butler
6 building, that was only about half used for
7 instructional purposes, we added another
8 3,000 square feet onto that --
9 three-and-a-half thousand square feet onto that
10 building.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So is the
12 reason why you're a school within a school then
13 I guess is because the piece of land you're on
14 happens to be the same piece of land that
15 Cocoa High School is on.
16 DR. PENN: That's correct.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If you were
18 to put a 2 foot wood picket fence around your
19 particular building, would it then still be a
20 school within a school?
21 I mean, I'm very --
22 DR. PENN: It would possibly be a school on
23 a school.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: A school --
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Good for you.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Because what
2 seems to be here, we're talking -- I mean,
3 really, when I first heard about this and didn't
4 see the pictures, and being briefed by my staff,
5 I was really envisioning that it was one campus,
6 like a room like this, and that you were using
7 some of the same type of facilities that -- that
8 they were using, and you were co-using
9 facilities.
10 I'd be interested -- I'm interested in
11 hearing from the School Board now as to how this
12 really is a school within a school, and not a
13 school -- as you say -- on top of a school,
14 or -- it appears to me right now, only hearing
15 half of the argument, that you just happen to be
16 on land that if, in fact, the School Board, or
17 someone else was to say was no longer
18 Cocoa High School land, you would -- you'd have
19 no problem.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let me poke at that a
21 little bit further. It goes back to my question
22 of a moment ago.
23 Under the proposal, will there be any
24 co-use of any facilities between you and
25 Cocoa High?
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1 DR. PENN: No. There's --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Physical education
3 locker rooms, lunchrooms.
4 DR. PENN: No. No. We have -- we have
5 asked in a contract -- a separate contract to be
6 able to use the -- the food services. But that
7 is certainly not necessary. It is -- it would
8 be nice, but it is certainly not necessary.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And how will you meet
10 the physical education requirement? I mean,
11 I'm -- not how will you.
12 But you have all of that figured out as to
13 how you would meet, for example, the
14 physical education requirement without co-use of
15 Cocoa facilities?
16 DR. PENN: Yes. We would have a certified
17 PE teacher, and we have a civic center which is
18 just down the road, and we would strike up an
19 agreement with them.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Okay.
21 TREASURER NELSON: I just want to say that
22 about six months ago, I went home and visited
23 this particular school. And I thought that it
24 was a rather innovative use of existing
25 facilities on Cocoa High School's campus. This
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1 is a building. It's over in the corner of the
2 campus.
3 But I thought it was rather interesting
4 that they had their own curriculum and did most
5 of that, for, like, five of the seven periods
6 per day. But then the other two periods of the
7 day, that they integrated into the
8 Cocoa High School campus on other types of
9 activities.
10 And, you know, whatever the legalities are
11 here -- first of all, I want to commend the
12 Brevard County School system, and you all in
13 your Academy, for utilizing resources that were
14 in need of being utilized. And doing it in a
15 way that you brought in the private sector, they
16 brought in all kinds of help from aerospace
17 companies there at the Cape.
18 So it's interesting that it brings us to
19 the debate today. But let's don't lose sight of
20 the fact, you need to be commended for what
21 you've done to this point.
22 DR. PENN: Thank you.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm going to at this
24 point, thank you all, and ask the members of the
25 Brevard County School system if they would
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1 please step forward.
2 Introduce yourself for the record, please.
3 MR. BISTLINE: Yes, sir.
4 Mr. Chairman, members of the Cabinet, my
5 name's Harold Bistline. I'm the attorney for
6 the Brevard County School Board.
7 With me today is Dr. David Sawyer, our
8 Superintendent; and Ms. Fran Pickett, one of
9 School Board members. Our chairman couldn't be
10 here today because we have a School Board
11 meeting tonight.
12 I'd like to first maybe clear something up,
13 and that is, as far as the facility goes. The
14 pictures that Ms. Penn distributed to you are
15 not part of the record.
16 However, we have -- if you're going to
17 consider those, I have a copy of a schematic of
18 the Cocoa High School campus that I would -- I
19 only have one copy, that I'd like to pass along
20 to you so you can see where the building really
21 is, and you will see that the building that the
22 Academy program uses is part and parcel of
23 the -- of the Cocoa High School campus. And
24 they would certainly have to share all of the
25 facilities in order to continue to use that
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1 project -- that building as a -- as a charter
2 school.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Be happy to have it.
4 MR. BISTLINE: With your permission.
5 The handwriting on there was mine, but the
6 buildings are numbered, and there's a legend on
7 the bottom.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No points off.
9 MR. BISTLINE: Mr. Chairman, members of the
10 Cabinet, on February 25, the School Board
11 considered six applications for charter schools
12 in Brevard County. The School Board approved
13 three and denied three. One of the three denied
14 was the application of the Cocoa Aerospace
15 Academy program.
16 At this time, I would like to first point
17 out to the Cabinet what is it that is being
18 proposed by the applicant. Simply put, the
19 applicant is proposing the conversion into a
20 charter school of a portion of the physical
21 plant, student body, and curriculum of an
22 existing public high school in Brevard County.
23 As far as we're concerned, this is no less
24 than a division or splitting up of a
25 1200 student high school that has served, and
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1 continues to serve its community well.
2 I respectfully submit to the Cabinet that
3 this is not authorized by the charter school
4 law, and should not be entertained by the State
5 Board of Education for the reasons that I will
6 get into in a moment.
7 I would now like to examine who -- who is
8 the applicant in this particular case.
9 The Cocoa Aerospace Academy is an open
10 integral vocational program established by the
11 Brevard County School District, funded by a
12 grant applied for by the Brevard County School
13 District, and instituted as part of the
14 comprehensive curriculum at Cocoa High School to
15 enhance the educational opportunities
16 available --
17 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
18 room.)
19 MR. BISTLINE: -- at Cocoa High School.
20 The Cocoa Aerospace Academy program is
21 housed in facilities that are part and parcel of
22 the Cocoa High School campus, and, in fact, the
23 Cocoa High School general curriculum utilizes
24 that same building two periods a day, periods
25 six and seven.
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1 The facility that is assigned to the
2 Academy program and the -- I'm sorry, the
3 faculty that is assigned to the Academy program
4 are teachers that are employed by the
5 Brevard County School District, and are under
6 the direct supervision and control of the
7 principal of Cocoa High.
8 Under any analysis, the Aerospace Academy
9 program is an integral part of the curriculum
10 offered at Cocoa High School.
11 At this time, I would like to examine the
12 statute that's at issue, and that's
13 Section 228.056(3), Florida Statutes.
14 I'm just going to read it to you. It's
15 very short. Sub (3) says: Proposal. A
16 proposal for a new charter school may be made by
17 an individual, teachers, parents, a group of
18 individuals, or a legal entity organized under
19 the laws of this state.
20 The principal, teachers, parents, and/or
21 the School Advisory Council at an existing
22 public school shall submit any proposal for
23 converting the school to a charter school.
24 And then it goes on to talk about the --
25 that the application to convert an existing
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1 school --
2 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
3 room.)
4 MR. BISTLINE: -- must demonstrate the
5 support of at least 50 percent of the teachers
6 employed at the school, and 50 percent of the
7 parents whose children are employed at the
8 school.
9 Now, the applicant claims that the Academy
10 program is a school within a school, and,
11 therefore, need not demonstrate the support of
12 at least 50 percent of the teachers and parents
13 at Cocoa High School.
14 The applicant's argument is that as a
15 school within a school, a program, that it need
16 only demonstrate the support of 50 percent of
17 the teachers assigned to the Academy program,
18 and 50 percent of the parents of the students
19 that are enrolled in the program.
20 Now, let's look at this in a -- with a --
21 with the facts of this case.
22 There are 84 teachers employed at
23 Cocoa High School. There are six teachers
24 assigned to the Academy program. To accept the
25 argument of the applicant, the applicant would
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1 only have to demonstrate the support of three
2 teachers out of 84 teachers employed at Cocoa
3 High School in order to meet the threshold of
4 the statute.
5 I don't believe that that's what the
6 statute says, what the Legislature intended, or
7 that's a reasonable construction of the statute.
8 You've already heard that the entire
9 faculty of Cocoa High School was polled, as per
10 the application process that is set forth by the
11 statute and the School District, and that
12 81 percent of the faculty was opposed to the
13 conversion of the Cocoa Aerospace Academy
14 program within Cocoa High School.
15 Now, let's talk about what is a school in
16 the state of Florida in accordance with the
17 charter school law.
18 In Florida, a public school must have a
19 principal. The Academy program has no
20 principal.
21 In Florida, a public school must have a
22 School Advisory Council. The Academy program at
23 Cocoa High School has no School Advisory
24 Council, because it is not a school.
25 In Florida, a public school must have a
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1 school identification number issued by the
2 Department of Education. The Academy program
3 has no such number.
4 And in Brevard County, a public school must
5 be accredited by School Board policy and rule.
6 The Academy program is not accredited as a
7 public school, because it is a program and not a
8 school.
9 At this point, I'd like to return again to
10 the statute. The statute says that the
11 principal, teachers, parents, and/or School
12 Advisory Council at an existing public school
13 shall submit any proposal of converting the
14 school to a charter school.
15 In this case, the principal of Cocoa
16 High School doesn't support the application, and
17 is not a sponsor of the application.
18 As I stated earlier, 81 percent of the
19 faculty at Cocoa High School opposes this
20 application.
21 The Cocoa High School School Advisory
22 Council, of which there is one, does not support
23 the application and is not a sponsor of this
24 application.
25 I want to now turn to the legal opinion
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1 which is contained in my brief as our appendix,
2 and that is the legal opinion of the General
3 Counsel's Office of the Department of
4 Education. I tell you, it's attached to our
5 brief, is in the appendix.
6 It's authored by Mr. Dean Andrews, a Deputy
7 General Counsel of the Department of Education.
8 Mr. Andrews states in his opinion that he has
9 researched this very issue whether or not a
10 program -- in accordance with -- set up in the
11 courts with the statute that's been cited by
12 the -- the applicant is, in fact, a school --
13 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
14 MR. BISTLINE: -- within the contemplation
15 or the letter of the law of 228.056.
16 Mr. Andrews, in his legal memorandum,
17 states that the Aerospace Academy was a program
18 offered as part of a comprehensive -- of the
19 comprehensive high school, Cocoa High School,
20 and that he could not conclude that this program
21 equates to a school within the meaning of
22 228.056(3), Florida Statutes.
23 That has also been my opinion, and is an
24 opinion that I believe is shared by other
25 attorneys who are interested in this subject
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1 matter.
2 We've also heard about some proposed
3 legislation, and a proposed Board rule.
4 Well, it seems to me that if the charter
5 school -- first of all, I don't believe that the
6 charter school statute, 228.056(3), is
7 ambiguous. I think it's perfectly clear.
8 I don't think there's any question about
9 what a public school is in Florida, or that the
10 existing public school that's referenced in this
11 statute means just that, a public school, and
12 not a program within a school that is set up by
13 a District School Board.
14 But it also seems to me that if there is a
15 need for proposed legislation, then clearly the
16 statute, as it is presently written, does not
17 authorize a partial conversion of a program
18 within an existing public school, to be a
19 charter school under the statute.
20 And I would say the same thing, if there
21 needs to be any proposed rulemaking. As far as
22 I know, there is no legislation --
23 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
24 MR. BISTLINE: -- proposed in this session
25 of the legislature which would amend the statute
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1 to accommodate the argument that is made by the
2 applicant.
3 So in summary -- and I want to -- I want to
4 reserve some of my time, because Dr. Sawyer, our
5 Superintendent, would like to make a few
6 comments to the -- to the Cabinet.
7 But in summary, we respectfully submit that
8 the charter school application -- the charter
9 school law does not authorize the partial
10 conversion of an existing public school.
11 We would further respectfully argue that
12 the Cocoa Aerospace Academy program is not a
13 school within the meaning of the charter school
14 law.
15 And finally, under any analysis, the
16 applicant has failed to demonstrate support of
17 the requisite number of faculty and parents at
18 the affected school, which in this case, is
19 clearly the entire Cocoa High School. And,
20 therefore, the application is legally sufficient
21 under the charter school law.
22 And I just want to give -- want to
23 reiterate that if you take the applicant's
24 position, his legal position, it does not seem
25 reasonable that in order to convert a portion of
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1 an existing public school that serves
2 1200 students, that has 84 teachers, that all
3 you would have to do is to secure the approval
4 of three teachers in a program, and the parents
5 of 160 students -- 50 percent of the parents of
6 160 students out of a student body of 1200, in
7 order to meet the threshold requirement of the
8 statute.
9 I don't -- we don't believe that that's the
10 interpretation -- that is a correct
11 interpretation of the statute, or that it's
12 reasonable, or that the State Board ought to --
13 ought to authorize that type of an
14 interpretation.
15 At this time, with your permission, I would
16 like Dr. Sawyer -- unless there's any
17 questions -- to make his comments to the Board.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Hear from
19 Dr. Sawyer.
20 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask the attorney a
21 question?
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
23 TREASURER NELSON: More of a legal
24 question. Since we're plowing new ground here,
25 and there likely is to be some legislative
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1 clarification --
2 MR. BISTLINE: Yes, sir.
3 TREASURER NELSON: -- I'm advised that is
4 being worked in the Legislature on this
5 technical point --
6 MR. BISTLINE: Yes, sir.
7 TREASURER NELSON: -- the basic legislative
8 intent of the statute, it would seem to me, was
9 to get the support, under the way I read the
10 statute, a proposal for a new charter school,
11 and it set out these events.
12 And the idea was clearly that you get the
13 parents and the teachers supporting it. But
14 it's not the entire Cocoa High School that is
15 asking to be a charter school.
16 So I wonder that under the legislative
17 intent of the statute, when it obviously did not
18 contemplate this narrow question that is facing
19 us, but the broad brush of that legislative
20 intent was clearly to -- meant to apply to the
21 parents and the teachers of the school that was
22 asking to convert to charter status.
23 And under that interpretation, clearly the
24 legislative intent is met.
25 What's your comment to that?
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1 MR. BISTLINE: My comment to that,
2 Mr. Nelson, is, first of all, what is a public
3 school? What is an existing public school in
4 accordance with the statute?
5 It's my position that an existing public
6 school, in this case would be Cocoa
7 High School. A -- a vocational program that is
8 established by a District School Board,
9 particularly this program, is not an existing
10 public school.
11 You need to also take a look at the statute
12 itself. And it says that the principals,
13 teachers, parents, and/or School Advisory
14 Council at an existing public school.
15 Now, in this case, the Cocoa Aerospace
16 Academy program doesn't have a principal,
17 doesn't have its own teachers, and doesn't have
18 a School Advisory Council. I don't see how it
19 could be called an existing public school to
20 begin with.
21 And then frankly, if you're talking about a
22 partial conversion of an existing, thriving
23 public high school, it would seem to me
24 reasonable to require that at least 50 percent
25 of the teachers and the -- and the parents of
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1 students enrolled in that high school, which is
2 clearly going to be affected by any partial
3 conversion of a portion of their student body,
4 faculty, and campus, should be polled, and
5 should be -- and you should have to demonstrate
6 at least 50 percent support for that type of a
7 proposal.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: What is it,
9 Counselor --
10 MR. BISTLINE: In this case --
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- what is it,
12 Counselor, that you believe 80 percent of the
13 parents of that entire high school misunderstood
14 when they voted to support this?
15 MR. BISTLINE: Okay.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I recognize what
17 you're saying.
18 MR. BISTLINE: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, you know,
20 without doing a whole lot of math here, if you
21 consider that there's the potential of
22 2400 parents, be it 1200 students; 84 faculty
23 members, it's kind of ironic that we've boiled
24 this whole argument down to what in reality
25 is -- is a handful of the faculty members who
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1 would prefer not see this happen.
2 A handful because out of the 80 percent --
3 81 percent of the faculty members that voted no,
4 that still leaves another group of people that
5 obviously voted yes.
6 So I guess what I'm trying to get to is:
7 Even though on a technicality -- and I believe
8 that's what this argument is boiling down to --
9 is technicality about the definition of what is
10 a school within a school, and what's not a
11 school within a school. We're, in essence,
12 recognizing that 80 percent of those parents,
13 vast majority of whom do not have a child in
14 that program, believe that this sounds like a
15 hell of a good idea.
16 MR. BISTLINE: Maybe I could answer that.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I believe what
18 we're -- what we may be guilty of doing is
19 disregarding what 80 percent of the entire
20 parent community believe is the right thing to
21 do in putting an apples and oranges comparison.
22 Understand what the law says, but I'm --
23 I'm troubled by that.
24 MR. BISTLINE: Well, Mr. Brogan, maybe --
25 TREASURER NELSON: Let me interrupt here
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1 just a second. We're the -- we're the appellate
2 panel up here.
3 I'm not sure that's what the law says,
4 because the -- the first sentence of the law
5 says: A -- I think there's ambiguity throughout
6 the statute that needs clarification.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No question.
8 TREASURER NELSON: And that's what I'm
9 stating, and as I'm reviewing this as one member
10 of the State Board of Education. Because it
11 says -- the first sentence is: A proposal for a
12 new charter school may be made by an individual,
13 teachers, parents, a group of individuals, or a
14 legal entity organized under the laws of this
15 state.
16 MR. BISTLINE: Uh-hum.
17 TREASURER NELSON: That's who may apply.
18 MR. BISTLINE: Yes, sir.
19 TREASURER NELSON: And then it goes on to
20 talk about an application submitted proposing to
21 convert an existing public school to a charter
22 school shall demonstrate.
23 So we've got an ambiguity here because we
24 don't have a total public Cocoa High School
25 trying to convert. We have a portion, a school
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1 within a school, trying to convert. And that's
2 the ambiguity.
3 MR. BISTLINE: Mr. Brogan, may I --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
5 MR. BISTLINE: -- answer the question?
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir.
7 MR. BISTLINE: As far as the parent survey
8 is concerned, our records reflect there's
9 1200 students at the school, approximately.
10 That the 1200 parent surveys were sent out. Of
11 these, 192 parents cast their votes out of the
12 entire 1200 surveyed sent out. And of the 192
13 votes that were cast out of 1200 solicited, only
14 157 were yes votes.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand how --
16 MR. BISTLINE: So the 80 percent --
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- given us some
18 unusual Presidents of the United States, based
19 on exactly that formula.
20 MR. BISTLINE: Right.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But unfortunately,
22 that's the formula that we're stuck with. So --
23 MR. BISTLINE: But, in fact, it's -- you
24 can't -- I don't think it's fair to say that
25 80 percent of the parents of the students
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1 enrolled at Cocoa High School support the
2 Academy program. In fact --
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Let's hear from --
4 from the Superintendent. I don't want to use up
5 all your time.
6 DR. SAWYER: Thank you very much. My
7 name's Dave Sawyer. I'm Superintendent of
8 schools in Brevard County. It's a pleasure to
9 have this opportunity to address the State Board
10 concerning this particular issue.
11 I'm glad that Mr. Bistline had the
12 opportunity to clarify that issue about the
13 80 percent of the parents. Obviously 80 percent
14 of the parents did not support the
15 Cocoa Academy, 80 percent of the parents did not
16 even vote.
17 It is my pleasure to talk to you a little
18 bit about the circumstances that led up to that,
19 and I'd like to take first the opportunity to
20 respond to Commissioner Brogan's first question,
21 which was how was the vote solicited.
22 The vote was solicited based upon
23 Dr. Alexandra Penn's letter of submisssion for
24 her application, which was received on -- in my
25 office on December the 31st.
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1 In that letter she clarified and specified
2 that her application was not complete, that it
3 was pending the vote of the faculty and the
4 parents at Cocoa High School, and that that was
5 going -- that had been scheduled, and was going
6 to be collected.
7 In my response three days later, I think it
8 was on January the 3rd, we immediately reviewed
9 those documents. I certified the fact that her
10 application was complete, that it was an
11 application for a conversion, and that it did
12 require the vote.
13 The vote was taken, she failed to meet the
14 requirement that she herself knew was there, and
15 had agreed to participate in. And upon failing
16 to meet that requirement, has now indicated that
17 perhaps a different population --
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Superintendent, let
19 me --
20 DR. SAWYER: -- should be solicited.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- let me interrupt
22 you, Dr. Sawyer, for just a minute --
23 DR. SAWYER: Sure.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- because that's
25 a -- that was a point I asked earlier, I'm still
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1 confused about. I want to nail it down.
2 The orig-- if I understood you correctly,
3 the original vote that was determined in the
4 application process was a vote agreed to by the
5 Academy which was in itself a vote of the entire
6 faculty, and the entire parent body.
7 DR. SAWYER: That is correct.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I am correct --
9 DR. SAWYER: And certified in the record.
10 If you'll read the letter that accompanied her
11 application, you'll see that there. And also
12 the response that I provided to her application
13 certifies that fact.
14 When the vote was not achieved, and then
15 the interviews after the review of the
16 application, she again reiterated the fact that
17 she --
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Doctor, was there --
19 DR. SAWYER: -- had not achieved --
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- was there ever a
21 separate vote of just the Academy parents and
22 just the Academy faculty, or was that contained
23 within the greater vote?
24 DR. SAWYER: That was only -- only based
25 upon her calculations and her knowledge of who
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1 those people were. There was never any
2 solicitation, no indication ever in the
3 application process that only those individuals
4 would be solicited, and a vote cast by them. It
5 was always a total vote.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Dr. --
7 DR. SAWYER: It was our understanding, from
8 our own legal advisor, and from the legal advice
9 we received from the Department of Education,
10 that our position was true and accurate, and we
11 defended that throughout the process.
12 TREASURER NELSON: Dr. Sawyer, what was the
13 vote of the School Board?
14 DR. SAWYER: The vote of the School Board
15 was 3 to 2 to deny the application. One of the
16 votes that -- one of the two votes indicated
17 that she would support the recommendation to
18 deny if the statistics that were shared during
19 the evening's events were certified, or
20 provided -- audited, if you will, for her
21 information.
22 It's my opinion that the Brevard County
23 School Board right now is 4 to 1 on this
24 application.
25 I think it's important to point out that
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1 Brevard County Public Schools is, in fact,
2 supportive of charter schools.
3 We've implemented a pol-- implemented a
4 policy and a procedure that allows applicants to
5 apply at any time in Brevard County for a
6 charter school. The only stipulation is that in
7 order to begin with the beginning of a school
8 year, they must apply by December 31st prior to
9 the initiation of that school year so there's
10 ample time for consideration; debate; and even
11 an appeal, if necessary.
12 And as Mr. Bistline indicated, we did
13 recommend the approval of three charters in
14 Brevard County. They now have been reduced to
15 two. And, in fact, tonight, those two will be
16 approved by our Board, at least from all
17 indications, for operation in Brevard County,
18 accounting for some approximate 2 million
19 dollars that will go out.
20 I do think it's important to state that the
21 vote in -- contrary to what Dr. Penn has said,
22 was not requested by this Superintendent. It
23 was clearly specified in our own records.
24 The record also clearly describes the
25 Academy as a program. If you read the proposal
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1 for the creation of the Academy, it defines
2 itself as a vocational education program at
3 Cocoa High School for Cocoa High School
4 students. And that's within their own proposal,
5 as well as in their own materials.
6 The Academy will not cease to exist. The
7 aerospace program will continue to be offered to
8 students. In fact, students are enrolling for
9 it at this time.
10 However, students will be reintegrated into
11 the academic program at Cocoa High School as a
12 part of the plan that we have in place for next
13 school year, as will other students be
14 integrated into the program that exists for the
15 Cocoa Academy.
16 I'd simply like to point out that
17 14,000 square feet on the campus of
18 Cocoa High School is currently available for 118
19 of their 1200 students.
20 This plan for next year will open that
21 facility up to all Cocoa High School students
22 who will not have to forfeit 100 percent of
23 their school day in order to take advantage of
24 that facility and the equipment that has been
25 purchased for their benefit.
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1 And as was pointed out earlier, we do have
2 two periods every day that students from
3 Cocoa High School enjoy that equipment now.
4 That's a million dollars worth of equipment
5 using the term -- the amount specified by
6 Dr. Penn that's currently available for students
7 from wherever they may be in the
8 Cocoa High School environment. Approving this
9 at this time, of course, would remove that.
10 Cocoa Academy students do, in fact, take
11 courses in physical education, ROTC, band,
12 music, foreign languages, et cetera, throughout
13 the campus at Cocoa High School, because they
14 are part of Cocoa High School, always have been,
15 and they always will be if they remain on that
16 campus.
17 It's important to recognize that although
18 the students participate in only five periods in
19 the Academy, they actually earn as many as
20 seven credits for those five periods, plus an
21 additional two by going to the classes outside
22 in the Cocoa High School environment.
23 Academy students are earning
24 four-and-a-half to five credits per semester on
25 a seven-period day as a result.
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1 My summation is simply this: The Academy
2 understood the rules, they even perpetuated the
3 rules. They failed to meet the requirements
4 specified by the law to achieve the 50 percent
5 endorsement by their own faculty. They had two
6 opportunities to do that.
7 They submitted, as you were told, an
8 application earlier where the indication from
9 the faculty was that they were not supportive of
10 that program. And, in fact, the percent though
11 increased over the time frame.
12 Having not met that requirement, they were
13 not eligible. And that was consistent with
14 every legal opinion that we received, including
15 the legal opinion of the Department of
16 Education's own Deputy Counsel.
17 TREASURER NELSON: May I ask --
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you,
19 Dr. Sawyer.
20 Commissioner.
21 TREASURER NELSON: If this charter school
22 is not approved, what will happen to the
23 Academy?
24 DR. SAWYER: The Academy -- the aerospace
25 portion of the Academy will remain, those
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1 courses will be available for students to
2 enroll. They will take their language arts,
3 their science, and their mathematics, and
4 social studies with other students in
5 Cocoa High School.
6 That will open up the entire facility for
7 all students to take advantage of that equipment
8 and facility, and it will also allow for maximum
9 integration of students both ways, not just in
10 one way.
11 Mark Elliott, Assistant Principal at
12 Cocoa High School is here, and he can respond
13 specifically to that on how it would work. I
14 don't have personal knowledge for that if you
15 would like --
16 TREASURER NELSON: So -- so you're saying
17 that as a policy matter, that it would remain
18 available to all students of Cocoa High School.
19 DR. SAWYER: Absolutely. That's --
20 TREASURER NELSON: Now, I thought as part
21 of the reason for setting up the Academy, and
22 the picture that I'm getting from you all is
23 that you have questions about the Academy.
24 I thought the Academy was being received
25 with just enormous kudos and attaboys. I've
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1 certainly heard it in the aerospace community
2 that that's the case.
3 But I thought that part of the reason for
4 setting up the Academy, that it was not limited
5 to the confines of Cocoa High School. I thought
6 it was supposed to be for all the students of
7 Brevard County that wanted to apply to it.
8 DR. SAWYER: In fact, all of our special
9 programs are available to all students who wish
10 to apply for them. There's nothing unusual
11 about that. Any special programs available,
12 instituted.
13 TREASURER NELSON: Do you -- do you have
14 some degree of concern because there has been an
15 independence in running that Academy expressed
16 from the direct control of the School Board?
17 DR. SAWYER: A concern for independence.
18 No, sir, I wouldn't say that.
19 My other concerns, other than this issue of
20 the vote, are substantial and they are
21 significant. However, they're not a part of the
22 record of this particular event.
23 I have grave concerns about the quality of
24 that program the way it's currently
25 administered, operated, provided, and
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1 supported. And I intend to continue to take a
2 look at that.
3 However, based on the vote alone, eight out
4 of ten faculty members who have been there for
5 three years say that this program does not
6 deserve support.
7 TREASURER NELSON: Well, I will just state
8 that my opinion having visited there once, and
9 having talked to students and parents and the
10 faculty, and having been there as the guest of
11 the -- I'd originally asked for the school
12 principal, who was not there, and my host was
13 the -- the assistant principal of the
14 high school -- I got the impression that -- to
15 the contrary, there wasn't an issue of quality,
16 that the impression that I got was exactly the
17 opposite, that the quality was enormously high,
18 and the satisfaction among the students and the
19 parents was exceptional.
20 DR. SAWYER: May I ask you, sir, when you
21 were there.
22 TREASURER NELSON: October.
23 DR. SAWYER: Of this school year.
24 TREASURER NELSON: October. Last October.
25 DR. SAWYER: Immediately past.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: This is 1997.
2 DR. SAWYER: Okay.
3 TREASURER NELSON: Last October.
4 DR. SAWYER: Okay. Well, the results of
5 the -- the first year of the Academy did,
6 in fact, seem to have some very successful
7 statistics. The information that we're
8 receiving now about the Academy indicates that
9 that is no longer true.
10 TREASURER NELSON: Well, I certainly didn't
11 get that impression.
12 But the issue I guess, Mr. Chairman, before
13 us is the question of the interpretation of the
14 statute? Is that the issue?
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That appears to be
16 the case.
17 Secretary Mortham, and then
18 General Milligan.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, it seems to me
20 that we're kind of dancing on the head of a pin,
21 and I do think that it probably is a question of
22 technicalities in the law.
23 I would certainly see this as a school
24 within a school. And it would -- and it would
25 appear to me that legislative intent was is that
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1 there could, in fact, be a school within a
2 school.
3 Now, first of all, am I correct in that
4 assumption?
5 Commissioner Brogan.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We've been wrestling
7 with that same issue. The legal department
8 rendered an opinion that, I guess, to summarize,
9 uses my word, not theirs, technicality that,
10 indeed, there is no official and legislative
11 terminology referencing a school within a
12 school.
13 And that has plagued us in this thing from
14 the very beginning, that it's -- it's
15 interesting that while so many terms have been
16 juxtaposed, you've got school within a school
17 and program and academy, there does not seem to
18 exist any legislative language that would
19 guarantee the term school within a school
20 exists. Thus, gives us our dilemma.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So then on that basis,
22 I guess the question is: Is could, in fact,
23 this be chartered as a school within a school?
24 Just on that question, not even going to
25 the -- to the question of the number of votes
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1 and who voted how -- which way, and -- and
2 so forth.
3 Because, frankly, I believe that this
4 particular group that's trying to put this
5 together has a very good idea. And it --
6 I believe that there would be very strong
7 support from a certain sector, obviously, the
8 parents and the students that -- that go to this
9 particular school. And I think that we ought to
10 look to give them every opportunity to succeed.
11 The question I would have is, yes,
12 number one, should all the teachers and all the
13 parents in that school participate. And the
14 fact that somebody didn't vote really isn't our
15 problem.
16 As the chief elections officer in this
17 state, 50 percent of the people don't vote in
18 any election. And so, you know, that's just
19 kind of a fact of life.
20 I do have a real problem with the fact that
21 80 percent of the teachers in that school would
22 be opposed. Because from my vantage point, I
23 would question why that is. Because it would
24 seem to me that they should be, in fact, looking
25 out for the greater good of those students in
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1 that program as well.
2 And I think that it's an educational
3 process, and I think that, you know, if the
4 people are advocating for the program and
5 everybody's working together, they'll make it
6 happen.
7 But I would really question in this
8 particular circumstance whether or not the
9 statutes are, in fact, written to allow this
10 charter to exist.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I would answer
12 that -- and I'm not an attorney -- but I would
13 answer that this way: That -- you mentioned
14 we're dancing on the head of a pin. That's a
15 pretty accurate portrayal.
16 If a school system, I believe -- and I will
17 point back to the six original charter schools
18 that were established immediately after the
19 legislation was passed, signed into law in July,
20 and by the end of August, six up and running.
21 And I do respect Brevard County. They
22 do -- or about to, I believe, approve two other
23 charter schools. So I don't think it's a case
24 of a school system that doesn't want to see
25 charter schools flourish, or at least begin.
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1 I am still in a quandary, however, as to
2 the technicality, recognizing that I believe if
3 the school system made the decision that it
4 appears as though -- not in counsel's opinion.
5 I understand. He made an emphatic case that
6 there is not school within a school here.
7 But it's one of those issues where, I think
8 if the system decided that it would acknowledge
9 the presence of a school within a school, we
10 wouldn't be in the position we're in.
11 They have strong feelings that it is not.
12 We cannot find any strong, solid legislative
13 language outside of spirit and outside of some
14 acknowledgment of the terminology in a variety
15 of other places to support the fact that there
16 is, indeed, the technical school within a school
17 legislation that has been discussed.
18 General Milligan?
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just a clarification
20 for me, please. The Academy, as I understand
21 it, can draw upon all students from
22 Brevard County. Not just from the
23 Cocoa High School.
24 Are they restricted only to Cocoa
25 High School? I heard an inference that the
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1 Academy could draw from other than --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Superintendent --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- Cocoa High
4 School.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Someone.
6 DR. PENN: May I?
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Dr. Penn.
8 And Superintendent, why --
9 Superintendent Sawyer?
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I think the
11 Superintendent was the one that made the
12 comment.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yeah. And --
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- since you're
16 probably going to be called on to answer anyway,
17 you might as well sort of hang near the podium
18 here.
19 DR. PENN: The charter school will draw
20 from the entire Brevard County school -- the --
21 all of the student body from all of
22 Brevard County.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Do they now?
24 DR. PENN: Yes, they do. Yes, we do.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You do now.
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1 DR. PENN: We do now. Yes.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So really it's
3 better to say you are not a school within a
4 school, but you are a school within
5 Brevard County.
6 DR. PENN: That's correct.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Thank you.
8 TREASURER NELSON: May I -- staff has just
9 shown me another part of the statutes here in
10 which, since we're dealing in an area of
11 ambiguity in the law, under job related
12 vocational instruction, legislative intent, it
13 says:
14 A program may be called a school, but need
15 not have a separate campus. And then it goes on
16 to say: It must be open to any student in the
17 school district.
18 So I think there's --
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I'm ready to
20 get off the head of the pin here. It's,
21 you know, getting into the afternoon. And I --
22 and I --
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Storm that beachhead,
24 General.
25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- I would make a
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1 motion that we accept the appeal, and return it
2 to Brevard County with a recommendation that
3 they give very serious consideration to the
4 students that are involved in this program, and
5 the importance of it to the Brevard County as a
6 school within Brevard County.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We have a motion.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We have a second.
10 Any further discussion?
11 TREASURER NELSON: Just --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Secretary?
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Yeah.
14 TREASURER NELSON: Sorry.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I feel like I have to
16 say something here. I think that there is
17 absolutely zero question in my mind that this
18 program is a good one.
19 And, frankly, the fact that they are
20 approving two charter schools -- or supposedly,
21 because I don't think you ever ought to count
22 your votes before you take them -- but that
23 these votes are coming up on other charters.
24 I think that, you know, they obviously are
25 open-minded to that position. But from my
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1 vantage point, I think that people are elected
2 at the local level to deal with their local
3 constituencies on these sort of issues.
4 And for that reason, I think that, yes, we
5 are the appeals process, and we need to send
6 our -- our recommendations back.
7 And my recommendation to them is that, yes,
8 they should be open-minded. But at the same
9 time, they're the ones that have to deal
10 firsthand with those constituencies.
11 And if, in fact, those programs don't work,
12 they're the ones that are ultimately going to be
13 held accountable.
14 So for that reason, I'm going to be voting
15 against the proposal.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: General?
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If I
18 understand, General Milligan, you're saying that
19 you -- that you want to vote favorable for the
20 charter school, with recommendation going
21 back --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, we're not in a
23 position to vote one way or the other. We're
24 accepting their appeal.
25 And with that acceptance, we are returning
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1 to them the fact that we support the position
2 presented by the charter school, a proposed
3 charter school, and asking them to look at it
4 again.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And it has my
7 enthusiastic support.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I will --
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'd just
11 like to make clear -- make sure how enthusiastic
12 our support is here.
13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I will -- I will
14 concur. And I will cite the same caution.
15 Although I'm going to vote in the
16 affirmative, I want to cite the same caution as
17 did Secretary Mortham, that ultimately the
18 school district, just as we did, discussed in
19 the first charter appeal, is ultimately
20 responsible for issues of quality, versus lack
21 of quality.
22 And as we do, if we do, send this back with
23 our favorable recommendation that it be
24 considered again, I think the issue of quality,
25 which was not a part of the denial in its
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1 original sense, we really centered on the issue
2 of school within a school and the technical
3 aspects that surround school within a school,
4 that that always should be a consideration, and
5 I've heard it voiced more than once here today.
6 General.
7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I'm going to
8 argue again that the Academy is servicing the
9 county of Brevard. It is not servicing only
10 Cocoa High School. And it is -- happens to be
11 on the property of Cocoa High School, but it's
12 serving the entire community.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: For the
14 record, I'll just -- I'd like to reiterate the
15 same thing, I cannot see this really being a
16 true school within a school.
17 And I think the -- this is eventually going
18 to be resolved by a hearing officer if the
19 School Board does not concur with us. So it's
20 good to get this on the record.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: All right. We have a
22 motion and a second, I believe.
23 Any further discussion?
24 All those in favor, please signify by
25 saying aye.
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1 THE CABINET: Aye.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Opposed?
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: No.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Motion passes.
5 And again, before we break, and I give the
6 Chair back to the Secretary, I want to thank all
7 the people who came to Tallahassee, all those
8 who've worked on these issues.
9 And especially thank the Cabinet Aides and
10 the members of the State Board of Education. I
11 know we're on new ground here, and I acknowledge
12 that fact.
13 We will see more of these, no doubt.
14 I think they will become a regular part of our
15 pattern, just as we deal with other
16 quasi-judicial issues in the future.
17 And we appreciate your thoroughness as
18 you've examined these with your staff.
19 DR. BEDFORD: That concludes -- that
20 concludes --
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That concludes State
22 Board of agenda.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you,
24 Commissioner Brogan. A job very well done on
25 difficult --
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Madam Chairman, is this
2 our longest Cabinet meeting?
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I think it is.
4 Just -- last item. Next Cabinet meeting
5 will be April the 15th.
6 And if there's no further business, we're
7 adjourned.
8 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
9 concluded.)
10 *
11 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
12 2:17 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 253 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 7TH day of APRIL, 1997.
17
18
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
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