Cabinet
Affairs |
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2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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DISCUSSION RE: DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY
6 AND MOTOR VEHICLES
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
7 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
8 IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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The above agencies came to be heard before
10 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
11 The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
February 11, 1997, commencing at approximately
12 9:48 a.m.
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15 Reported by:
16 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
17 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
18 the State of Florida at Large
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22 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
23 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
904/878-2221
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February 11, 1997
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
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BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
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SANDRA B. MORTHAM
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
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BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN
Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
February 11, 1997
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 DISCUSSION RE: DEPARTMENT
OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND
4 MOTOR VEHICLES
5 Discussion 5
6 INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION:
(Presented by John Douglas,
7 Interim Executive Director)
8 1 Approved 13
2 Approved 22
9 3 Approved 22
4 Approved 22
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DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
11 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 23
13 2 Approved 27
14 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
15 Secretary)
16 1 Approved 92
2 Approved 93
17 3 Approved 93
4 Approved 93
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
February 11, 1997
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
3 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
4 (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
Secretary)
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1 Approved 39
6 2 Approved 39
3 Approved 39
7 4 Deferred 41
5 Approved 42
8 6 Approved 43
7 Approved 43
9 8 Approved 89
Substitute 9 Approved 90
10 10 Approved 91
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 94
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:13 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Comptroller Milligan has
4 some comments to make on the Department of
5 Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, thank you,
7 Governor. I realize they're not on the agenda
8 today, and this pertains to really our next
9 Cabinet meeting.
10 I'd like to address an issue, and then
11 subsequent to that, make a motion regarding the
12 Department of Highway Safety and Motor
13 Vehicles.
14 Yesterday I met with Secretary of State
15 Mortham, and some of her staff, regarding the
16 legislation that she has regarding the
17 Department of Motor Vehicles -- or Highway
18 Safety and Motor Vehicles.
19 And she articulated her concerns regarding
20 the Department's inefficiencies, and the cost
21 savings that are attributable to the Secretary's
22 plan, and cited a report which happens to be
23 titled How to Merge Florida Department of State
24 and Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, dated
25 February 15, 1996, which I happened to see for
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 the first time yesterday.
2 And also cited an OPPAGA report, which I
3 have not yet acquired and had a chance to
4 review.
5 But both expressed -- both reports
6 expressed findings, and recommendations that
7 deal with efficiencies and effectiveness related
8 to the Department of Highway Safety and
9 Motor Vehicle.
10 And basically, the Secretary's bottom line
11 is we need to take action now. And I certainly
12 agree with her that we need to take action now.
13 The last time I checked though, the
14 Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles
15 is our responsibility. And we need to take
16 action now, if action is required.
17 If the things I have read in the media are
18 correct, and based on what I've learned
19 yesterday, we have been remiss in not taking
20 action, and perhaps even negligent if we knew
21 about the concerns and didn't take action.
22 I would move, Governor, that we have the
23 Secretary of the Department of Highway Safety
24 and Motor Vehicles come to us before us at the
25 next Cabinet meeting, and tell us what action,
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DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 if any, has been taken, or will be taken, in
2 reference to the findings and recommendations in
3 these two reports; and respond to the concerns
4 specifically addressed by the Secretary of State
5 in reference to inefficiencies, and in reference
6 to the cost savings associated with some of her
7 proposals.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if
10 I can --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- say
13 something.
14 I'm not quite sure this needs a motion.
15 Because I think at any time, I think any of us
16 can ask these questions of an Executive Director
17 of an Agency that works for us. And I have no
18 problem at all with any Executive Directors
19 coming before us having to answer questions.
20 I'm probably the only one up here who has
21 had the opportunity to also serve in the
22 Executive Director role for an agency that
23 reports to the Cabinet.
24 And it's -- as I've stated over the past
25 ten years, and twice this particular Governor
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DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 and Cabinet, and a former Governor and Cabinet
2 have unanimously voted to re-- to change the
3 entire system, the Legislature has not quite
4 agreed with us.
5 But the -- but I've found that whenever I
6 was working for seven bosses, I was really
7 working for no boss. And so I don't remember
8 wearing --
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I appreciate the
10 comment. But, nevertheless, we are the bosses
11 right now, and we are responsible. And if there
12 are inefficiencies, and they are not being
13 addressed properly, we need to get to it.
14 And I believe that the Director -- the
15 Secretary has his opportunity to have his day in
16 court. And I'd rather see us address our
17 responsibility straightforward.
18 And if a motion is not required to get that
19 done, I mean, I don't care. I --
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I totally
21 agree with you, but --
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- get on with it,
23 and account -- be accountable for what are our
24 responsibilities.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 don't disagree with the General. In fact, I
2 think -- and I used to -- I just don't think a
3 motion is necessary to do this, because a lot of
4 times I know I've asked our various
5 Executive Directors questions, and brought it
6 before the Cabinet.
7 And I think we should not only look towards
8 Highway Safety, might want to look at each of
9 the agencies that report to us.
10 A number of years back, I know when I was
11 serving in that capacity as Executive Director
12 of Highway Safety, two Cabinet officers were,
13 in essence, assigned to me. Or whatever.
14 And I had to basically report to them, and
15 had almost oversight. And then it started
16 rotating. And even being up here on the
17 Cabinet, a few years back, we started to assign
18 a couple of us to various agencies to look at
19 them, more so than the others. And -- in order
20 to address the various issues.
21 Maybe we should -- we need to go back to a
22 system such as that. I'm probably the only one
23 on here that's -- that was here when that
24 happened. And then maybe it's something that as
25 a Cabinet, it may be -- it is our fault. We
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DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 should probably have kept up more a day-to-day
2 operation with these agencies. Because we
3 are -- we are the agency. We are the -- we are
4 the Department of Highway Safety and Motor
5 Vehicles. That's our -- our
6 Executive Director.
7 I guess he'd be a Master Sergeant or
8 something, or Sergeant Major, or whatever --
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, he's probably
10 a little higher than that.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: He gets paid a lot,
13 so he must --
14 But I don't care how we get to it, I just
15 say we need to get to it.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think the General is
17 right -- both Generals -- any -- that any member
18 of the Cabinet could ask for an agency head,
19 you know, to come before any Cabinet meeting.
20 So we'll take that as a -- the motion,
21 in effect, as -- as a request, and ask the
22 Department head to come before the next -- next
23 meeting. As I say, any member could ask.
24 I do recall -- and I think it was -- it was
25 a little earlier, that the Attorney General did
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DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 sponsor a plan which went before the Legislature
2 which would have created a Department of Law
3 Enforcement, so to speak, that would have had
4 motor vehicles vast-- I think most of that,
5 together with the Department of Law Enforcement,
6 and everything would have been merged into an
7 agency.
8 As I recall, the Legislature didn't see fit
9 to -- to do anything with that. And so there
10 have been other moves about how to organize or
11 reorganize.
12 We will -- we will ask the -- the
13 Department head to be before us next time.
14 Usually they're on the agenda every time, but
15 they're not on this one. So --
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I can
17 understand why.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, yes, Governor,
19 I agree that there have been a number -- at
20 least in my experience here, short experience, a
21 number of efforts to do some reorganizing. And
22 we are on the verge of having another one with
23 the Constitutional Revision Commission --
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's right.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's
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DISCUSSION RE: HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
February 11, 1997
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1 right.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- which is perhaps
3 the really appropriate place to address any
4 changes in the structure.
5 But with that said, we are still
6 responsible for the actions of the Department of
7 Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, and we need
8 to be on top of it I think.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think you're right.
10 (The Discussion Re: Department of Highway
11 Safety and Motor Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Information Resource
2 Commission.
3 MR. DOUGLAS: Good morning, Governor,
4 members of the cabinet.
5 Item 1 is the approval of the minutes of
6 January 28th, 1997. Recommend your approval.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Move and seconded.
10 Without objection, minutes are approved.
11 MR. DOUGLAS: Item 2 is the approval of the
12 Information Resources Commission's annual
13 report.
14 A couple comments, if I may, Governor, on
15 that, like to make note of.
16 The report, I think, shows a wide variety
17 of accomplishments by the State agencies in the
18 area of information management over the 95-96
19 fiscal year.
20 I think the expenditures increased on
21 information resources management from three
22 hundred and twenty-six million, to three hundred
23 and sixty-nine, or 13 percent.
24 We are experiencing a high turnover in
25 technology positions, a 3 percent increase, with
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 highs in communications networking positions of
2 31.5 percent annually, and 20 percent --
3 26 percent among applications programming people
4 annually, turnover rate.
5 Almost half of the State's information
6 resource management expenditures are among five
7 agencies: What used to be the Health and
8 Rehabilitative Services agency, now Children and
9 Family; Labor and Employment Security; and
10 Management Services; Transportation; and
11 Law Enforcement.
12 And almost half of our inventory of
13 personal computers are older than 386 computers
14 which are nonyear 2000 compliant, which is
15 something we will talk about later.
16 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
17 MR. DOUGLAS: We recommend your approval of
18 this annual report, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move approval
20 for discussion, Governor, and have a question
21 for John.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'd second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
24 seconded.
25 Yes, sir.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: You suggested you
2 were going to get to the 2000 issue. It's -- it
3 is an international issue that we're dealing
4 with in terms of --
5 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- rolling over to
7 the year 2000 and our capacity to address all of
8 the lines of data that are caught in that.
9 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: My concern, and I
11 speak for many, I think, on this issue, is that
12 the State of Florida be moving together on this
13 thing rather than in fragmented fashion.
14 I've talked to some who suggest that there
15 are contractual services to deal with this that
16 might be as expensive as a dollar sixty-five per
17 line, with agencies who go from a couple of
18 million lines that have to be dealt with, to
19 900,000 up or down.
20 I guess free market would lead me to
21 believe that if we can as a State address the
22 issue, because we all have the problem, John,
23 that there's the possibility we might be able to
24 address this thing in the most cost-effective
25 manner possible, recognizing it's such a
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 monstrous issue to deal with.
2 And I read your -- your annual report with
3 a great degree of -- of interest on this issue.
4 Could you enlighten us as to where you
5 think the State of Florida is going on this
6 problem; and if you have some, advise us as to
7 how you think we can deal with this in the most
8 cost effective and efficient manner?
9 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, sir. And, in fact, that
10 is our Item 4 on this agenda is our statewide
11 assessment of the year 2000 date change
12 problem.
13 And I do believe that the State of Florida
14 is, for its size, doing very well. The agencies
15 are working very hard on this issue.
16 And what we present in this --
17 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
18 MR. DOUGLAS: -- report is a snapshot of
19 where we are as of January 1st.
20 And I think if we looked at the progress of
21 the agencies in that interim period, just in a
22 short period --
23 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
24 MR. DOUGLAS: -- of time, we would see a
25 lot of progress.
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 One of the things on the cost of this issue
2 is that because it is a worldwide problem, there
3 is projected to be a shortage of resources to
4 address the issue.
5 Consequently, that and the free market,
6 will drive prices up as we grow -- get closer to
7 the year 2000, rather than down.
8 We have obviously a strong -- we are a big
9 entity for anyone to want to take on this task.
10 So there is the opportunity to leverage -- get
11 our best hold, if you will, from a price
12 standpoint. But we need to move as rapidly as
13 possible on that.
14 A number of contractors are working with
15 our State Department of -- Division of
16 Purchasing to get on a statewide contract. We
17 have a number of very qualified, credible
18 vendors, who are willing to work with us now.
19 I think the big issue for the State is that
20 the resources that have been requested during
21 this -- for this legislative session by the
22 agencies needs to be appropriated by the
23 Legislature so that we can get on about making
24 these corrections in the next fiscal year.
25 Many of the agencies are also doing as much
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 as they can with their in-house resources, and
2 we're seeing a lot of progress being made. But
3 clearly, I don't believe, nor -- nor our
4 assessment indicates that the State in and of
5 itself has enough resources to handle this
6 problem totally, that we will need some
7 additional contract help to get the job done.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, a
9 follow-up, if I may.
10 What I -- what I think I heard you say
11 within that statement is -- and I appreciate the
12 statement -- is that there are already several
13 things going on. And I have found that to be
14 the case, that agencies are already in-house
15 dealing with this issue, and have for -- some
16 for several years --
17 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, sir.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- trying to lighten
19 the load as we close in on the year 2000.
20 But I also, I think, heard you say that we
21 are already contracting for some services as
22 individual entities.
23 And, again, I know it's never as simple as
24 we all try to make it sound, even though it's
25 the same problem, the problem is different from
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 agency to agency, and from program to program.
2 MR. DOUGLAS: Right.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But is there a way to
4 recommend that we not only get on with it, but
5 somehow pool our resources together so that
6 we're not dealing with so many individual
7 contractors who have the ability then to
8 leverage the fact that we're running out of time
9 on this thing in their favor, that we can
10 leverage and harness the sheer volume of this
11 thing statewide so that we can use that as a
12 lever to drive down the cost of this thing?
13 MR. DOUGLAS: There is a possibility of
14 that, although our problem -- or the scope of
15 the issue is so large that I think there are
16 very few vendors who would probably want to take
17 on the whole thing.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Whole magnitude?
19 MR. DOUGLAS: You might have a group of
20 them, a smaller group. And in the case -- in
21 some states, they are looking at different
22 vendors to do different things.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I guess that's my
24 point, because I appreciate your comment. It is
25 such a huge dilemma that we're facing, that you
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 may need a number of different vendors to do it.
2 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, sir.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: But I still think you
4 have the -- we have the ability to leverage the
5 volume of the need, versus the number of vendors
6 that it would take to put in our favor the --
7 the cost-effectiveness of it.
8 MR. DOUGLAS: Well, I note the -- an
9 earlier report by the Auditor General had
10 recommended that there be established a Year
11 2000 Project Oversight Task Force, if you will,
12 that would help provide a focal point to
13 coordinate this matter in working with the
14 agencies.
15 And the Governor's office, I know, has
16 recommended a -- that the funding requested by
17 the agencies be administered in one amount. So
18 I think we are looking at activities to try to
19 bring that focus together, and to try to manage
20 that in that regard.
21 But there's always opportunity --
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, and I --
23 MR. DOUGLAS: -- to try to --
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- I appreciate
25 that. I just know that this is one of those
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 issues that has an absolute finality to it --
2 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
3 MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, sir.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and it's rapidly
5 approaching. And -- and I just -- I hope as a
6 State, we're moving as proactively as possible
7 so that we don't get caught up with the eleventh
8 hour making some mammoth purchases of services
9 because we've run out of time.
10 MR. DOUGLAS: I think that we are going to
11 be going down to the wire in some cases, because
12 of the size of some of our applications, and the
13 complexity of them.
14 But I believe that at this juncture, we
15 have the opportunity to be successful in
16 achieving year 2000 compliance with our most
17 critical applications.
18 The key, in my view at this juncture, is
19 for the Legislature to appropriate the necessary
20 resources that have been requested by the
21 agencies, to get that job done.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Understood.
23 Thanks, Governor.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
25 MR. DOUGLAS: Did we --
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INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
February 11, 1997
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move --
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: So many as favor the
3 adoption of the amendment, signify by saying
4 aye.
5 THE CABINET: Aye.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
7 It's approved.
8 MR. DOUGLAS: Item number 3 is approval of
9 the Information Resource Commission's quarterly
10 performance report.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
14 Without objection, it's approved.
15 MR. DOUGLAS: Item 4 is approval of the
16 statewide year 2000 date change assessment
17 report that we were essentially just now
18 discussing.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, that's approved.
23 MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, Governor.
24 (The Information Resource Commission Agenda
25 was concluded.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
February 11, 1997
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
2 MR. FUCHS: Good morning.
3 Item 1 is request for approval of the
4 minutes of the January 28th meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, the minutes are
9 approved.
10 MR. FUCHS: Item 2 is a request for
11 approval in concept of the Department's
12 additional legislative proposals for the Child
13 Support Enforcement Program.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second it --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: And seconded.
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- and make a
19 comment if I --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- or ask a question
22 really, Governor, if possible.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'm taken by the
25 privatization effort, Larry, that you're looking
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DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
February 11, 1997
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1 at to try to pick up your backlog.
2 And my understanding is that your
3 privatization effort at this time is going to
4 attack only 25 percent of that backlog?
5 MR. FUCHS: We have had discussions with
6 potential vendors. And the level of resources
7 that they have to put in the State, both
8 automation, and human resources, is such that we
9 feel more comfortable at a 50,000 case a year
10 level, at least to start out with, as a
11 practical size to determine how effective
12 they're going to be, and what the size of
13 subsequent contracts might be.
14 Also there's a potential, given the Federal
15 funding, that this effort could pay for itself
16 beginning in the second year. So if we start
17 modestly, there may be sufficient income that we
18 could expand beyond that without having to ask
19 for any of the general revenue dollars.
20 So it seems to be the prudent, logical way
21 to -- to get it off the ground in an area where
22 we haven't done anything before.
23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: How does that
24 25 percent then, in that prudent approach that
25 you're talking about, relate to the 750 FTEs?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
February 11, 1997
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1 MR. FUCHS: They're two different issues,
2 General. We think we need 750 FTE -- if the
3 Legislature approves that level. And,
4 of course, they might approve something else --
5 to maintain equilibrium.
6 Those 750 FTE would not be used at all in
7 the backlog. They would just try and deal with
8 the workload that we're being presented with
9 today, in order to keep from increasing the
10 workload.
11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: So the 750 then
12 would handle -- the additional 750 with the
13 resources you already have -- would handle your
14 new case load each year.
15 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And not address the
17 back load at all.
18 MR. FUCHS: This is correct, sir.
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: My understanding
20 also is that you have already seen a 15 percent
21 or so reduction in the case load -- annual case
22 load -- as a result of the Federal actions on
23 welfare that are just now beginning to be
24 in effect, and that you really can anticipate
25 even further drawdown in the case load.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
February 11, 1997
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1 How does that relate to the 750?
2 MR. FUCHS: Once again, we're not sure
3 exactly how this'll work out on a year-to-year
4 basis.
5 Persons -- the initial reduction of the
6 case load appears to be the result of persons
7 getting off of AFDC, off of the welfare roles,
8 if you will.
9 However, anyone, whether they have been on
10 AFDC or not, can avail themselves of our
11 services by payment of a one-time fee of $25.
12 So some of those individuals -- and we have no
13 idea -- no way of determining at this time how
14 many -- may continue to be clients, or become
15 clients again after a short interval, by payment
16 of the $25.
17 And once again, I'm not sure -- I doubt,
18 standing here today, that the Legislature is
19 going to fund the entire 750 persons.
20 And we intend to present them with a plan
21 where that can be accomplished -- or some
22 portion of that 750 can be accomplished on a
23 revenue neutral basis, certainly by the second
24 year.
25 So we asked for the number that we feel
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1 are -- would be currently necessary to maintain
2 equilibrium as the outside parameter, and expect
3 to negotiate with them as to what makes the most
4 sense for the State overall, and taking into
5 account the concerns that you've expressed
6 regarding the changing numbers, and our
7 inability to judge at this point exactly how far
8 they're going to change.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. Thank you.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there further
11 discussion?
12 So many as favor the motion, signify by
13 saying aye.
14 THE CABINET: Aye.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I
17 have one question. I'll just bring --
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- it up
20 real quickly.
21 Larry, some people seem to not understand
22 the procedure.
23 Let me just ask you this: If I purchase an
24 item from a catalog company who -- who's outside
25 the state of Florida, how do you collect the
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1 sales tax on that item, from the company, or
2 what -- how does that work?
3 MR. FUCHS: The ideal situation is that we
4 have either a legal or a contractual
5 arrangement -- a legal obligation, or
6 contractual arrangement, with the company where
7 they are required to collect the sales tax for
8 Florida, just as if they were a merchant here.
9 That kind of levels the playing field for
10 our resident merchants, and provides some return
11 for whatever expenditures the State is making on
12 behalf of that merchant.
13 However, if the merchant, through some
14 U.S. Supreme Court decisions, decides that they
15 will not honor the state of Florida's request to
16 collect the taxes, they shift the obligation to
17 the citizen of the state of Florida.
18 And since 1949, it has been the person who
19 makes the purchases responsibility to report
20 their purchase to the Department of Revenue
21 individually, and still pay the tax, same amount
22 of tax.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And I assume
24 not everybody does that?
25 MR. FUCHS: I think there are -- there are
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1 three people in the Department of Revenue; and,
2 of course, the seven of you; besides myself, who
3 actually turn in those reports and --
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I tell --
5 MR. FUCHS: -- make those payments.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So other
7 than the twelve of us who are doing this --
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I think you've got
9 eleven.
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- obviously
11 the Legislature is not going to pass any new
12 taxes. Therefore, it makes it incumbent upon us
13 to collect all the taxes.
14 And since the Department of Revenue does
15 work for the entire Cabinet, this puts you
16 almost in the same position as the head of the
17 Department of Highway Safety and Motor
18 Vehicles. That if this Cabinet does not do --
19 if we don't also hold this particular
20 Executive Director's feet to the fire -- or head
21 to the fire, whatever it might be -- that we
22 also may not be doing our -- our jobs.
23 Maybe you can bring back to us next week
24 some suggestions --
25 What is the penalty, by the way, if they --
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1 if everyone else -- since we're all doing it, if
2 other people do not pay their -- let's say
3 someone in -- in the media decides to buy their
4 VCR from that place in New York that advertises
5 every week in the Wall Street Journal, don't pay
6 any tax. What's the obligation, what's the
7 penalty?
8 MR. FUCHS: Pardon me for not remembering
9 exactly. There's interest, of course. I think
10 the legislatively mandated interest right now is
11 12 percent. I don't recall the level of the
12 penalty. I want to say 10 percent, but I can
13 check on that --
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So there's
15 no criminal penalty here at all.
16 MR. FUCHS: No.
17 But let me point out, if I might, General,
18 that for the past year, I have been a member of
19 a seven-person negotiating team representing all
20 50 states in face-to-face and written
21 communication with the Direct Marketers
22 Association wherein we are attempting to write
23 the basis for voluntary agreements, where the
24 major direct marketers, major catalog companies
25 in the United States, would voluntarily collect
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1 Florida's tax for us.
2 The ACIR in Washington estimates that we're
3 losing about 200 million dollars a year through
4 noncollection of out of state taxes. And I have
5 reported this, I think, to each of you in
6 letters -- several letters over the past year.
7 We are close to success in those
8 negotiations. I knock on wood. I was nowheres
9 near as optimistic about four months ago. But
10 there seems to be a major push on the part of
11 responsible out-of-state marketers to -- to
12 bring forth this voluntary agreement.
13 And I'll be happy to report in greater
14 detail at our next agenda.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if
16 I may -- may just continue.
17 When it comes to alcoholic beverages, such
18 as to wine clubs and beer clubs, they're really
19 getting to be -- and I'm sure cigar clubs in the
20 future -- are going to be -- it's getting bigger
21 and bigger. Some people estimate we could be
22 losing 600 million dollars in that regard.
23 What role do you have there, or is that
24 just under DBPR?
25 MR. FUCHS: My -- this is not an area of my
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1 personal expertise. My general understanding is
2 that that's almost exclusively DBPR.
3 We, of course, cooperate with them where
4 there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: But isn't
6 also the people who are receiving those
7 particular goods also are responsible to pay the
8 State of Florida all taxes that should have been
9 on those particular items.
10 MR. FUCHS: I can certainly speak to sales
11 tax.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: To sales
13 tax.
14 MR. FUCHS: Yes.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Now, the
16 problem here might be, if you can work out an
17 agreement with the wine companies, we have a
18 three-tier system on how you sell liquor in
19 Florida.
20 Maybe you can explain how we can -- or
21 think about how we can resolve that -- that
22 particular issue.
23 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I don't need
25 an answer from you now.
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, I just
2 want to point out, too, if it's a large item
3 that's coming by truck, our road guard stations
4 are picking those items up.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: They are?
6 Okay.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We collected
8 probably -- in the last few years, working with
9 the Department of Revenue, probably 30 million
10 dollars in unpaid sales tax, which probably
11 would have gone unpaid.
12 In fact, if -- I was recently in
13 North Carolina. If you look at furniture
14 there -- I was at a fairly reputable store, and
15 they said, oh, if you buy this, you don't have
16 to pay any sales tax.
17 I said, yeah, but do you know that's not
18 really true, you know.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: They told
20 the wrong person.
21 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. They told
22 the wrong person. I said, our road guard people
23 are picking them up.
24 But, see, what happens, they'll tell you
25 you're not going to have to pay the tax. When
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1 they come through our road guard station, we get
2 the bill of lading, if there's no evidence tax
3 is paid, we get the name of the destination
4 where it's going, the person.
5 Then you'll get a letter from the
6 Department of Revenue, and they expect in
7 evidence the tax has been paid.
8 So what is happening if you buy a large
9 purchase, like furniture from North Carolina,
10 regardless of what they tell you in
11 North Carolina, you actually are going to pay
12 that tax. So you're not saving that, you know,
13 6 or 7 percent that you might think you're
14 saving. Because we're -- with the
15 Department of Revenue and our road guard, we're
16 picking it up.
17 So -- but the smaller items, you know, you
18 don't have a chance to really inspect.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You know,
20 some issues, I think, like, when you bring
21 liquor in, that's a criminal offense. And
22 I'm -- I don't know whether or not your guys get
23 involved in that. But that's --
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. That
25 could --
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: But haven't we
2 actually -- in the catalog sales though, which
3 are tremendous purchases, we've lost some court
4 cases on that as far as enforcement; have we
5 not?
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We have.
7 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. There are two
8 United States Supreme Court decisions that have
9 precluded the states from enforcing the tax
10 collection provisions.
11 However, the U.S. Supreme Court has also
12 said that Congress can overcome this problem,
13 that it's not a constitutional issue, it's
14 merely a statutory one.
15 And we have encouraged, with your support
16 in the past, encouraged our Congressional
17 delegation to support provisions. I think
18 Senator Graham was a cosponsor of one of them by
19 Senator Bumpers, to try and get Congress to
20 act. But that has not yet occurred.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: My understanding is
22 that -- and this came up at the National
23 Governor's Conference, that they're looking for
24 some kind of a -- an agreement with, I guess,
25 major catalog companies, or whoever represents
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1 them, that will allow some kind of -- I think,
2 virtually a voluntary situation.
3 It doesn't appear that we're going to be
4 very successful in the Congress. The -- the
5 lobby on the other side can always kill that
6 legislation.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah. We --
8 because we did pass it in the Legislature, what
9 we -- at that time we called it the LL Bean Tax.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And -- but then the
12 courts, I think, hit it, and we couldn't --
13 you know, it was -- I think it was like an 18,
14 20 million dollar increase in revenue, just as
15 small as that -- the scope of that bill was.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. It would probably
17 be --
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Much bigger now.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- much bigger than that.
20 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's probably --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: But this -- my
22 understanding is if we got this settlement, it
23 would cover about 80 percent of the catalog
24 purchases, or more. So it would be a major
25 thing if we could get it.
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1 MR. FUCHS: That's the negotiation that
2 I'm -- that I'm --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
4 MR. FUCHS: -- that I'm speaking of. And
5 we --
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Uh-hum.
7 MR. FUCHS: -- are close to getting that
8 agreement.
9 Florida's Legislature did prepare us.
10 We're probably better situated than any other
11 state in the country to -- to enter into these
12 agreements.
13 A bill was passed before my time to -- to
14 structure a settlement agreement, and allow the
15 Department to enter into them. So we would not
16 need legislation in order to sign these
17 agreements once the format is decided upon by
18 this negotiating team.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Very good.
20 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there further
22 discussion?
23 So many as favor the item, signify by
24 saying aye.
25 THE CABINET: Aye.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
2 Thank you, sir.
3 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Or I guess we'd already
5 covered that.
6 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
7 concluded.)
8 *
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Trustees.
2 MS. WETHERELL: Item 1, minutes.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, the
7 minutes are approved as read.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Item 2 is an option
9 agreement for the Bell Meade CARL project.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 MS. WETHERELL: All right. Item 3 is a
15 purchase agreement for an addition to the
16 Cedar Key Marine Lab.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
20 Without objection, that's approved.
21 MS. WETHERELL: Item 4 is a purchase
22 agreement for FSU.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Governor, I have a
25 question on this.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved.
2 Is there a second?
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: And seconded.
5 Yes, sir. Go ahead.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: The -- as I
7 understand it, this property was purchased in
8 August of 1994 for slightly over $100,000. And
9 we are now paying somewhere around $163,000 for
10 it.
11 I am having a lot of difficulty with
12 understanding how the value of the property has
13 exploded at least 50 percent. I'm trying to get
14 some answers to that question. I haven't gotten
15 those answers.
16 I would be willing to move for a deferral
17 until we get the answers. Otherwise, I would
18 certainly couldn't support it today.
19 MS. WETHERELL: FSU negotiated this
20 agreement, and I understand that the person is
21 here.
22 If he would like to come forward if you
23 would like to ask him any questions.
24 But the backup does reflect what the
25 Comptroller is saying, that an individual did
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1 purchase it a couple of years ago for 102,000.
2 FSU negotiated this price.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there any reason why
4 we can't just delay this till next Cabinet
5 meeting?
6 MS. WETHERELL: No, sir. Because the --
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
8 MS. WETHERELL: -- closing date's in May.
9 So from a technical --
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Based --
11 MS. WETHERELL: -- standpoint --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- based on
13 General Milligan's concerns, and possibly
14 concerns of others, I'd be happy to change my
15 motion to that of deferral, get more
16 information.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion to defer.
18 Is there a second for that?
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second.
21 Without objection, it's deferred.
22 MS. WETHERELL: All right. Item 5 is a
23 purchase agreement for FSU.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
3 Without objection, it's --
4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Well, I --
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Excuse me.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Jump in here again,
7 Governor, I'm sorry to say.
8 This one probably is a little more
9 acceptable. But even at that, the price is
10 extraordinary, and I acknowledge that there are
11 some developments on this particular piece of
12 property.
13 But, you know, we've drawn some rather
14 skinny lines in the sand a couple times, and
15 time and wind has blown them away.
16 And I -- I'm just continuing to be
17 concerned about the price that we wind up paying
18 for property when we buy it as a state.
19 And I'm not going to ask for a deferral,
20 but I am not going to support this particular
21 motion and purchase.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Further discussion?
23 Noting the objection, so many as favor the
24 motion, signify by saying aye.
25 THE CABINET: Aye.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion is carried.
4 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
5 Item 6 is an option agreement for
6 Lake Kissimmee recreation and Parks Addition.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
10 seconded.
11 Is there discussion?
12 Without objection, it's approved.
13 MS. WETHERELL: Item 7 are two option
14 agreements for the Wekiva-Ocala Greenway CARL
15 project.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, that's approved.
20 MS. WETHERELL: Item 8, the 1997 CARL
21 annual report, and the '97 CARL annual priority
22 list.
23 We have a number of speakers, some for and
24 against; some ten speakers total, Governor.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Do you have some kind of
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1 time?
2 MS. WETHERELL: If you want to do your
3 traditional 3 minute per speaker?
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Let's try that. Yeah.
5 MS. WETHERELL: All right. I'll call first
6 on Eva Armstrong from Audubon Society.
7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning, members of
8 the Cabinet. Eva Armstrong representing the
9 Audubon Society.
10 I've been involved with this issue since
11 August. I know most of you have been aware of
12 it as least that long, if not longer.
13 And I just wanted to point out to you some
14 concerns I have about the specific action that
15 you're contemplating taking today in moving that
16 CARL boundary.
17 And I understand that you're trying to work
18 a compromise with the local government to
19 provide them with ways to move forward with
20 their responsibilities.
21 But in taking the action to move that CARL
22 boundary today, something to keep in mind is
23 that this is land that was purchased with
24 Preservation 2000 dollars. And in order to do
25 that, the staff that bought the land had to
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1 certify that the lands within that project were
2 of such value that they needed to be protected,
3 they had a specific test they had to go
4 through.
5 And so in moving the CARL boundary, you're
6 saying, well, sorry, we were wrong about this
7 part of that project. And I want to suggest to
8 you that that is a dangerous precedent to set.
9 Because today it is this county government,
10 several months ago it was a prison, tomorrow
11 it'll be another school.
12 And I understand infrastructure needs,
13 Governor, I understand infrastructure needs.
14 And I'm here to tell you that this --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: But do you understand the
16 unique way in which we purchase this property.
17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I want to suggest it's not
18 quite as unique. I'm -- my guess --
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's not unique?
20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, there are other --
21 there have been other purchases where the staff,
22 to buy land, bought property that they said, buy
23 it all or buy none.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Number one on the CARL
25 list was Topsail.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: About -- way, way, way,
3 way, way down the list was some -- was
4 Fort Washington property.
5 Now, on a -- on a very unique thing,
6 because it was a foreclosure, and an item that
7 was placed on our agenda under the exceptions,
8 so no one sort of had much notice about it, we
9 had to be prepared literally to pass an action
10 and to bid on the courthouse steps for a piece
11 of property within hours from the time we passed
12 that action.
13 The local people of Washington County --
14 I mean, of the County got very little notice
15 whatsoever, Walton County. Nobody had any
16 notice.
17 We would not have bought -- I would have
18 never voted to pay the kind of money that we
19 were talking about that you would normally pay
20 for the Fort Washington property way down the
21 list, but it was free. It was literally given
22 to us because we were getting the other property
23 to bargain.
24 Now, let me just read you a little of the
25 discussion that went on at that time.
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1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Because when you start
3 talking about how we're cavalierly -- or you
4 didn't say that --
5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, sir.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- at how we're making
7 some great precedent that we're setting.
8 Governor Chiles -- now, I'm afraid this
9 transcript is verbatim, so it's got a lot of
10 what's and you knows and --
11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- you know, that kind of
13 thing.
14 Well, let me, you know -- I want to
15 understand this a little better. I don't think
16 we should be in the business of buying land and
17 managing it, even if it's a bargain, you know.
18 It sounds like --
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Sounds like an ESPN
20 interview --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- to me, Governor.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Sounds like Topsail is
24 very valuable, pristine land, has some great
25 value. I don't know about the other. I know
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1 we're being rushed because of the foreclosure
2 sale.
3 Why should we even say, even if we're going
4 to buy it, that we're going to end up owning
5 it? Why don't we, even if we buy it at this
6 sale, say we'll get the Inter-agency Management
7 Committee to look at it, to determine what
8 should be appropriate.
9 I'm not sure that we shouldn't sell part of
10 this land back off again, let the County have
11 some. There ought to be school sites, there
12 ought to be -- you know, I'm concerned if we
13 keep buying land because we think it's some kind
14 of bargain or something, we're going -- how are
15 we going to manage it?
16 And goodness knows, if it's agricultural
17 land, and there might be management, somebody --
18 shouldn't that be in the private sector doing
19 it? Should it not go back on the tax rolls?
20 Treasurer Gallagher: I think we all agree
21 with that. I think it should be looked at.
22 I mean, if we look at the history of the
23 country, what made it great was private
24 ownership of land. So there probably are some
25 good parcels here that could go back to private
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1 ownership.
2 But I am in favor of buying it, analyzing
3 it, and letting those pieces that can go back to
4 private ownership go back. Unless they're
5 environmentally endangered, or something like
6 that.
7 Governor Chiles: Is there some
8 extraordinary bargain we're going to get out of
9 this?
10 General Butterworth: Yes, Governor. This
11 is probably why P2000 -- what it was intended to
12 accomplish. It's consistent with the law which
13 encourages State acquisition of environmentally
14 sensitive RTC lands. We believe this is a real,
15 real bargain.
16 I just think, Governor, some of the lands
17 which are being thrown in, we don't really need,
18 but they just have to be thrown in. And I think
19 it actually is probably better if they are spun
20 off later. But it's a bulk purchase, we have to
21 take it all.
22 Really, the people who have been working on
23 this from DER -- DER, Natural Conservancy,
24 Department of Banking and Finance, Division of
25 Forestry, this basically has been a long time in
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1 coming, and a tremendous bargain to the
2 State of Florida. As the Director can state to
3 us, we can't miss this opportunity.
4 Governor Chiles: Well, I would certainly
5 suggest if we have the Inter-agency Management
6 Committee look at this, and give us back a
7 report of what would be appropriate use for this
8 property, whether all of it needs to be held by
9 the State, whether part of this land could be
10 either resold or turned over to the Court, put
11 back on the tax rolls in some way, because
12 I think if we don't do that, all our P2 money --
13 thousand money will be gone.
14 You know, we're buying it -- in a lot of
15 instances, I think, land that's very valuable
16 for holding, we're buying -- and a lot of
17 instances, I think land that's valuable for
18 holding the world together.
19 Treasurer Gallagher: I think there's a
20 good opportunity to get a lot of P2000 money
21 expended back -- when it, in fact, we do analyze
22 the property and let some of it go back to the
23 private sector.
24 Now, this is the gist of what took place in
25 the meeting, before -- before we agreed to buy
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1 this.
2 I was very apprehensive that we were going
3 to take this and -- and again, with very little
4 notice to the County. So, in effect, we
5 promised them there that there would be an
6 Inter-Agency Management --
7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Uh-hum.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- group would look at
9 this property, determine this property -- now,
10 that's been going on for years, some years now.
11 Been all kind of meetings.
12 And, in effect, when you say we're getting
13 rid of P2000 land, there is -- actually now,
14 under the agreements that they're looking at,
15 going to be more land. Because we're talking
16 about buying some more land to connect the two
17 projects.
18 But we're going to let the County have a
19 township that they can use. And all of the
20 people, all of the State inter-agency groups
21 have looked at that.
22 Now, I don't believe it violates any
23 precedent, I don't think it changes anything at
24 all.
25 And I think when you lock yourself in, that
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1 once you have bought something with P2000, you
2 can never, never get rid of a foot of it.
3 I really think it's ridiculous that we
4 couldn't find some of the land in Tate's Hell to
5 make a prison on. Tate's Hell is exactly what
6 it is said, it's a hell. And if you ever got
7 lost out there at any time, you'd know it's
8 Tate Hell.
9 Environmentally sensitive for the kind of
10 acreage that we have, that we shouldn't be able
11 to put a prison or something, like -- we get
12 ourselves hooked into these things.
13 And what I'm saying is, I think that's the
14 worst thing we can do for P2000, the worst thing
15 that we can do -- let's look at -- keep our eye
16 on what we say we were going to do.
17 We were going to purchase environmentally
18 sensitive land. We were going to lock that land
19 up and try to keep it from the state.
20 Here we get an opportunity to have a
21 bargain, and to purchase some other lands that
22 we don't need, and we're trying to do that, all
23 of our people have been involved in it, and then
24 we come up and, oh, my God, you're going
25 against -- you're going to break the world
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1 because you're going to violate this oath of --
2 of not taking the P2000 land.
3 I think this is a way for us to keep faith
4 with the County. Now, if there's something
5 wrong of -- either designated -- but I think
6 we've been through that and through that and
7 through that. I don't think we're breaking any
8 precedent whatsoever or setting any bad prec--
9 other than saying, we're going to try to
10 preserve land that should be held from the
11 State, and we're going to try to be good
12 managers, and we're going to recognize that
13 local government has needs for schools and
14 infrastructure, and we're going to not try to
15 say we're going to buy all of the land in
16 Walton County and take it off their tax rolls,
17 so they have no benefits out of that. Again,
18 that would be very ridiculous, too.
19 So I feel very comfortable about what we're
20 doing here.
21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Governor, I totally
22 understand your position. I would like to make
23 two or three brief points.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Your time is up.
25 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, I get into this
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1 with you all the time.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: We can't sit here all day
3 and have you monopoliz--
4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand your position,
5 Governor.
6 Number one is that there is no doubt in my
7 mind, or I think anybody's mind, that
8 Preservation 2000 is probably the most popular
9 program ever adopted in the state anywhere.
10 I mean, the public loves it.
11 And they also -- if you talk to people in
12 the public, they have a belief that when you
13 guys buy it, it's staying like that. I
14 understand --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Because you don't help
16 us, and some of the environmental writers don't
17 help us, and go back and don't recognize the
18 action we took, that we said exactly what we
19 were doing; we've been doing exactly what we're
20 doing; and, yes -- and then you say, oh,
21 these -- they're getting rid of it. Of course,
22 they feel that way.
23 But I can tell you, they also feel -- a lot
24 of people out there, what are you doing buying
25 all this land? Are you managing it; are you
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1 using it; are you just locking up land and
2 letting it grow into jungles, and some of that
3 we're doing. Some of that we're doing. We're
4 not doing the kind of management job that we
5 should be doing.
6 So what this good program that you're
7 talking about, it won't have all this goodwill
8 if we don't do our job properly.
9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. Just two
10 more points --
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Who was the
12 Governor's aide back then, do you remember,
13 Governor?
14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was number one, that
15 it's a popular program.
16 Number two, we don't disagree with
17 surplusing the lands that were outside the CARL
18 boundary. I'm not complaining about that.
19 In fact, if we could have found a way to do
20 this -- and grant you, I didn't think about this
21 until last night, so I understand it's too
22 late.
23 But if we -- I'd have been willing to give
24 them more of the land that was outside the CARL
25 boundary to protect that boundary.
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1 And it is about protecting our natural
2 resources here --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: But -- all right. Let me
4 just ask you one more time.
5 But if something was on the CARL list, and
6 it was number 40, or somewhere way down there,
7 that you'd never have gotten to it, you never
8 have purchased it. But now you're saying
9 because it was once in that so-called boundary,
10 even though you pick it up in a bargain, which
11 is given to you free, which it was, you can't go
12 look at that boundary.
13 Now, if you -- if I had known that I could
14 never look at that boundary, I would have never
15 voted for this purchase on that day. Because I
16 knew we didn't need it all, I knew we were not
17 giving the County notice.
18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir.
19 And my last point is that the reason why
20 moving the boundary today is important is
21 because of the philosophical difference we have,
22 which is, as soon as you move it,
23 Franklin County and Corrections will be back in
24 to move the boundary in Tate's Hell.
25 And while I understand those look like two
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1 very valuable decisions to make, to move
2 forward, to me it is opening the dam for uses on
3 any of the Preservation 2000 lands. And it's
4 difficult to hold that line.
5 And I just wanted you to be aware that
6 I think it is a precedent. And I think it's an
7 important precedent to understand.
8 Thank you.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: I'm a little bit like the
10 old Methodist hymn, almost persuaded.
11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thanks for hearing me out.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Governor, I just wanted to
13 clarify one point. I just asked Greg Brock
14 who's our CARL Director.
15 Some of the land that we purchased at that
16 point in time was not in the original CARL
17 boundary. And she made the statement that had
18 it not been in the CARL boundary, she wouldn't
19 be feeling that way.
20 But some of the property we purchased was
21 not in the original CARL boundary.
22 I'll call next on Manley Fuller, and then
23 Susie Caplowe.
24 MR. FULLER: Governor and Cabinet,
25 Manley Fuller, Florida Wildlife Federation.
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1 I was listening intently to the immediate
2 previous discussion. One thing I'd like to
3 say -- say, Governor, it is true that the State
4 forest was number 55 on the CARL list, which is
5 pretty low.
6 But my understanding of what I've been told
7 is it was not given a low ranking because people
8 didn't feel that there were significant
9 resources out there, it was given a low ranking
10 because there was an unwilling seller. And
11 that -- that the property -- had there been a
12 willing seller, it probably would have been
13 higher on the -- on the ranking.
14 But I do -- I do want to say that outside
15 the CARL boundary, we think that there are --
16 there are clearly properties which -- which
17 could be, we believe, legitimately surplused or
18 used for exchange to fill in inholdings within
19 the proposed CARL boundary modification.
20 And those -- in fact, I would say that all
21 the parcels in section 27, which total 4--
22 70 acres; and a number of the parcels in
23 section 28, which total another 60 acres, we
24 think there would be -- would make an excellent
25 surplus property.
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1 We have a concern about parcel Z, which is
2 in section 28. It has a high natural resource
3 values, it's about an 80-acre parcel.
4 As the surplusing process goes through,
5 we'd like to see that -- that as a consideration
6 that we might be able to protect the resource
7 values on that property. It's very close to the
8 proposed new CARL boundary.
9 So we believe that there clearly are
10 parcels which could be surplused legitimately
11 that could benefit the overall State forest and
12 State park complex.
13 One concern that we have is there's a --
14 and we're not -- we're certainly not qualified
15 to say where school sites -- whether there
16 should be school sites or not.
17 But one -- one thing that we've looked at,
18 the new town center proposal, and it has a
19 middle school site proposed in the northern
20 portion of it. And that's an area that has a --
21 has a moderate -- or middle ecological value
22 that the State people made that determination.
23 And we think that perhaps some of these
24 parcels in section 27 or 28 might be more
25 applicable for a school site.
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1 Also looking at the -- the plan for the
2 town center, we see that it's -- that a large
3 portion of the town center would be considered a
4 nature preserve. And we think that because it
5 would immediately abut State forest, we would
6 think that that might -- it might be a good idea
7 to continue to manage that as State forest.
8 Maybe sell it, but have a lease condition
9 if the State is the manager, possibly there's
10 some options there.
11 So we think that the new CARL boundary is
12 an improvement in a number of ways over the
13 previous CARL boundary -- that we think that
14 there's some improvements in the new CARL
15 boundary.
16 But we would like to participate in the
17 discussions that occur through -- through the
18 surplusing process. And we'd like consideration
19 for exchange.
20 And one other -- one closing comment is
21 that we -- we're aware of the history of this
22 property, we're aware of the purchase, and we
23 think that your hands should not be totally
24 bound, that you could not do some surplusing of
25 these out parcels.
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1 But there are -- there is a lot of value in
2 that State forest, and we think -- and clearly
3 there needs to be dollars to manage the
4 property, and we don't want to waste lands, and
5 we support the State actively managing and
6 having recreational opportunities for the public
7 on State lands. I know you know that.
8 And that's -- conclude my remarks with
9 that. And if you have any questions, I'd be
10 glad to take them.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
12 Any questions?
13 Thank you.
14 MR. FULLER: Thank you.
15 MS. CAPLOWE: Good morning, Governor and
16 Cabinet members. My name is Susan Caplowe, and
17 I'm speaking for Judy Hancock who lives in
18 Lake City and couldn't be here today. But as
19 you know, she regularly attends the LMAC and
20 LAAC meetings, so she is very familiar with this
21 issue.
22 So I'd like to just read her statement.
23 Sierra Club is very concerned about the
24 proposed boundary change on Point Washington
25 State Forest. While we understand that
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1 potentially the small, disjunct parcels may not
2 be needed as part of the State forest because of
3 difficulties in management, we disagree that the
4 lands in the identified town center are not
5 needed to remain as State forest lands.
6 These lands are part of the forest, and we
7 would hope they remain so.
8 We also were not aware of any criteria for
9 determining that these lands are not needed to
10 further the intent of Preservation 2000. It is
11 essential that the integrity of P2000 be
12 protected and maintained.
13 We, therefore, request that the boundary
14 change release only the small disjunct parcels
15 north of 98, and that the referenced town center
16 lands be retained as part of the forest.
17 Thank you.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Call on next three people:
20 Cynthia Alexander, Celeste Cabena, and
21 Bonnie McQuiston.
22 MS. ALEXANDER: Good morning. My name is
23 Cynthia Alexander. I'm a local resident and
24 business owner in South Walton, and I'm a Board
25 member of Beach to Bay Connection, the
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1 South Walton coastal conservancy grass roots
2 group.
3 The Trust introduced South Walton to a
4 vision that we cannot dispel. We, the citizens
5 and residents of South Walton, are the major
6 stakeholders in the fate of the Topsail and
7 Point Washington CARL projects, and consequently
8 the future of South Walton.
9 And the responsibility falls to us to be
10 the local stewards and the advocates of this
11 land for all of the state of Florida.
12 We support the new CARL boundary that
13 identifies 1663 acres for acquisition to
14 complete our east/west greenway, complete our
15 only beach to bay connection greenway, and
16 complete the in-fill of our CARL project.
17 The new CARL boundary allows our economy
18 and our environment to move forward.
19 Securing our parks and forests and
20 greenways allows us to move forward with
21 improved access, and begin ecotourism in
22 earnest. We have a chance to do it right in
23 South Walton, and I believe we can.
24 It is our firm belief that the environment
25 and the economy cannot be separated in
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1 South Walton. They are inextricably entwined.
2 There is a special sense of place here, and
3 we are united as a diverse community in our
4 desire to maintain this quality of life. We
5 share our home with the Florida panther, the
6 gopher tortoise, and the red-cockaded woodpecker
7 along a coastal dune-like system found nowhere
8 else in the world, amid beaches of sugar-white
9 sand and sweeping dunes, framed by hardwood
10 hammocks and longleaf pine.
11 We can, and must, sustain our tourism and
12 development without consuming and obliterating
13 the natural resources that make this place so
14 very special.
15 Wise resource management is good
16 stewardship. As South Walton prospers, so
17 prospers Walton County.
18 Our County officials attempt to argue that
19 the chunk of land in South Walton now held in
20 preservation strains our tax base. Yet an
21 observation made by the Wall Street Journal
22 May 15th, 1996, edition, notes, quote: In
23 Walton County, the average sale price --
24 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
25 room.)
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1 MS. ALEXANDER: -- of a home of $150,459 is
2 37 percent higher than the State average,
3 according to the TRW-REDI Property Data, Inc.,
4 an Anaheim, California, real estate research
5 firm. Development in South Walton has keyed off
6 the preserve land. People have settled here,
7 and tourism has grown, because we are one of the
8 few relatively beautiful and pristine areas left
9 in Florida.
10 We consider ourselves park and forest
11 communities. Even local developers recognize
12 the value of green spaces, parks, and forests,
13 and the enhanced worth it brings to our
14 neighborhoods.
15 They know that in our area, preserved land
16 is the number one amenity when considering a
17 place of residence.
18 Walton County literally received a gift
19 from the State of Florida. The Point Washington
20 project and the Topsail Hill, Deer Lake, and
21 Grayton Beach projects were purchased, and have
22 been managed without direct cost to the County.
23 We would like to reiterate our firm desire
24 to keep the promise of preservation.
25 We support the new CARL boundary and the
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1 careful and tough process by which it was
2 formulated. We have demonstrated to the State
3 in every way possible our acceptance and support
4 for the gift of our conservation land in
5 South Walton. It is the only attribute that
6 distinguishes us from our eastern and western
7 neighboring counties.
8 Please remove our preserved lands from this
9 contentious political bartering. Please do not
10 circumvent the will of the Preservation 2000
11 process. Please do not circumvent the will of
12 the people. Keep the intent of
13 Preservation 2000 and CARL intact.
14 It is an honorable, beautiful,
15 forward-thinking endeavor. We want to hold the
16 line in South Walton County, and we ask you to
17 hold it with us.
18 Thank you.
19 MS. CABENA: Good morning. I'm
20 Celeste Cabena, and I'm a resident of
21 South Walton, and I'm also chairperson for the
22 Beach to Bay Greenway Committee.
23 The Beach to Bay Connection Greenway
24 Committee endorses the approval of the revised
25 CARL boundary and the number 2 ranking on the
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1 substantially complete CARL list for the
2 Point Washington ecosystem CARL project.
3 In 1995, Governor Chiles, when you declared
4 the South Walton Greenway network as one of
5 150 greenways in the State of Florida, the
6 community of South Walton took this to heart
7 since we already had a greenway plan in the
8 works.
9 The map presented to you today by Beach to
10 Bay Connection illustrates the plan we have for
11 our greenway.
12 Our State parks, Topsail Hill,
13 Grayton Beach, and Deer Lake, are the hubs of
14 the greenway system linked by the
15 Point Washington State Forest.
16 However, a more complete connection is
17 desired between Topsail Hill and the
18 Point Washington State Forest Management Area.
19 A series of trails through this area will
20 provide alternate transportation roads between
21 the Van Ness Butler School -- that's point A on
22 your map -- and the Helen D. McCall Ball Field,
23 that's point C; the Santa Rosa Beach post office
24 and library, which is point B on your maps.
25 Also it will connect up neighborhoods and local
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1 businesses.
2 Pedestrian and bicycle travel between these
3 locations, as well as the beach, will be
4 possible without getting into traffic on
5 Highway 98 or County Road 30A.
6 This is not a conceptual plan. The eastern
7 lake trail is the first in a series of greenway
8 trails. This trail was dedicated in May of 1996
9 by the Florida Division of Forestry. Use of the
10 trail has exceeded our expectations.
11 Future plans include trails linking all of
12 the State Parks, the sites listed on your map,
13 and neighborhoods and businesses.
14 We feel that this greenway plan will boost
15 the economy, and maintain a high quality of life
16 in South Walton.
17 The Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor
18 Recreation Plan, 1994 states: Among all leisure
19 activities, 44 percent of the residents, and
20 37.8 percent of the tourists regarded outdoor
21 recreational activities involving natural
22 resources as the things they enjoyed most.
23 The results suggest a critical need to
24 maintain the quality and quantity of the natural
25 resources in Florida to serve the residents; but
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1 also to serve the number one industry in
2 Florida's economic base, the tourist sector.
3 Tourists in increasing numbers are
4 abandoning Florida. Ecotourism is the wave of
5 the future, and Walton County is poised to
6 capture an increasing market share.
7 Total expenditures by users of the
8 St. Marks Trail in Leon and Wakulla County in
9 1992 were over 1.8 million dollars.
10 One can only imagine the revenue that will
11 flow into Walton County when over 30 miles of
12 beach to bay, dune-like to dune-like, and
13 park-to-park trails are completed.
14 Once again, we ask the Governor and Cabinet
15 to approve the revised South Walton ecosystem
16 CARL boundary and the number 2 ranking on the
17 substantially complete CARL list, and let's
18 please hold this line together.
19 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
20 MS. McQUISTON: I am Bonnie McQuiston, a
21 local resident of South Walton.
22 Many citizens volunteered to set up tables
23 outside the polling places in South Walton
24 during the general election in November. They
25 had a petition.
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1 And the petition reads in part: We, the
2 undersigned, respectfully petition the Governor
3 and Cabinet members to listen to the people.
4 Please keep the promise of preservation, and
5 maintain the integrity of Preservation 2000 and
6 the CARL program.
7 There are over 1500 signatures on these
8 petitions I'd like to give y'all today, please.
9 Also, this morning, many Walton County
10 citizens traveled here to voice their support
11 for the Forestry Division's new CARL boundary.
12 I'd like to ask if the citizens from
13 Walton County could stand, please.
14 Okay. Thank you.
15 Also, among -- among this group are many
16 individuals who represent all the organizations
17 in Walton County. And I would like to ask for a
18 quick roll call of those representatives to tell
19 you what organization they're with. And they
20 also want to voice their support for the new
21 CARL boundary.
22 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
23 MR. PETERSEN: I'm Steve Petersen. I
24 represent the Homeowners' Association of
25 Sunrise Beach, and we do support holding the
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1 line and protecting our lands.
2 MR. HILSON: I'm Hilton Lawson. I've been
3 with Walton County since 1968. I'm a
4 Walton Tax -- Walton County Taxpayers
5 Association. It is the oldest civic
6 organization in South Walton.
7 And I fully agree, and the members I've
8 contacted fully agree on the boundaries that you
9 have designed and brought before you this day.
10 Thank you.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
12 MS. McQUISTON: Excuse me. In the name of
13 time, could you just stand and just name your
14 organization. And that's all we're going to
15 have time for.
16 MR. WRIGHT: Governor, my name is
17 John Wright. I had the privilege of serving as
18 one of the Board members of the South Walton
19 Conservation Development Trust. I would say I
20 was treasurer. I tried to be a good steward.
21 And I'm for what we're trying to do today.
22 Thank you.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
24 MS. JONES: I'm Nancy Jones of Inlet Beach
25 Neighborhood Association.
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1 MS. COMACHO: I'm Lavern Comacho,
2 South Walton Fire District.
3 MS. MARTIN: Grace Martin, Three Arts
4 Alliance.
5 MS. STAFFORD: Lyn Stafford, Eastern Lake
6 Neighborhood Association.
7 MR. BAIR: Wally Bair, President of
8 South Walton Community Council, 18 neighborhoods
9 belong to our association.
10 MR. RUSSELL: George Russell, past
11 President, Emerald Coast Cyclists' Club. We
12 support the new foundation.
13 MR. WHITE: Bob White, member of the City
14 38 Business Association.
15 MS. BANNERMAN: Claire Bannerman, Friends
16 of Eden, volunteer coordinator, and we support.
17 MR. SCHRADER: Terry Schrader, business
18 owner on Highway 98 in South Walton, and a
19 representative of 51 plus percent of the vote in
20 the last election of South Walton.
21 MR. MURPHY: I'm Bob Murphy, Chairman of
22 Beach to Bay Connection, and we've worked hard
23 with the LAAC and LMAC, and we think the
24 proposal you have in front of you today is
25 acceptable.
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1 MR. DEAN: Bob Dean with the Habitat for
2 Humanity in Walton County, and I certainly
3 endorse the concept of the town center,
4 especially provisions that have been made for
5 affordable housing, which is desperately needed
6 in South Walton for the service industry.
7 MS. McQUISTON: And I've been asked by the
8 President of Friends of the Coastal Branch
9 Library, who could not be here today, she has
10 faxed each of you to voice the Friends of the
11 Library's support for this new boundary also.
12 Thank you.
13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
14 MS. WETHERELL: There are still four
15 speakers, and I'll ask them to stay to their
16 3 minutes, please.
17 Kassy Keyes is next.
18 MS. KEYES: I have these documents to
19 present.
20 MS. WETHERELL: I'll take them for you.
21 There are two different documents.
22 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
23 MS. KEYES: What I'm sending up to you are
24 the documents that are the final report of the
25 South Walton Ecosystem Management Team.
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1 It contains a summary of the two planning
2 processes, and then you'll see a complete master
3 plan for the new town center that includes
4 wetlands jurisdictions, topographic surveys,
5 environmental surveys, as well as a master plan
6 of development.
7 And I hope that that plan will help to
8 answer some of Mr. Manley Fuller's questions.
9 That town has been very well designed with all
10 environmental considerations taken into its
11 thought and planning.
12 The South Walton Trust was created in 1993
13 to help try to find an answer to some of these
14 perplexing problems about conservation
15 development.
16 Throughout the process, there was a
17 three-fold expression for South Walton that
18 emerged: Economy, ecology, and community.
19 The South Walton Conservation Development
20 Trust Plan was completed in December 31st, 1994.
21 The scope of the document was extraordinary. It
22 contained a plan for South Walton that addressed
23 infrastructure, transportation, natural
24 resources, land use, housing, education, and
25 economic growth. It also contained an
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1 acquisition, disposition plan for public lands.
2 The plan met both conservation and
3 development goals without changing the overall
4 percentage of State ownership in South Walton,
5 which at that time was 37 percent of the south
6 end of the county.
7 According to that report, by following the
8 trust plan, Walton County stood to gain a net
9 fiscal benefit of 176 million dollars over a
10 25-year period; the school district would see a
11 net fiscal benefit of 92 million; a combined net
12 benefit of 268 million dollars over 25 years.
13 Affordable housing and an approved primary
14 and secondary education system were considered
15 crucial to the success of this economic
16 strategy. The dispositioned lands would offer
17 opportunities to provide for both needs.
18 For the past several years, I have had the
19 good fortunate to work with the Walton County
20 Board of County Commissioners, and be involved
21 in helping to bring to Walton County the
22 planning processes known as the
23 South Walton Conservation Development Trust, and
24 the South Walton Ecosystem Management Pilot
25 Program.
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1 Both programs were created by the Florida
2 Legislature to try to find a balance between
3 conservation development needs in Walton,
4 following the State's purchase of this land.
5 Both programs sought to fulfill the vision
6 expressed through the Trust, economy, ecology,
7 and community.
8 Hopefully your actions today to approve the
9 new CARL boundary for the South Walton Ecosystem
10 Project will move us one step further towards
11 that goal.
12 I'd now like to introduce you to the
13 Chairman of the Walton County Board of County
14 Commissioners, Mr. Bill Young.
15 And thank you very much.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
17 MR. YOUNG: Governor Chiles, distinguished
18 members of the Cabinet, we just want to
19 thank you this morning for giving us our
20 opportunity to appear before you to talk about
21 the new CARL boundary. We appreciate it very,
22 very much.
23 Our entire County Commission is here with
24 us today, along with a representative of the
25 School Board, Mrs. Susan Atkison.
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1 It is our understanding that all of our
2 Congressional delegation has contacted you,
3 either by letter, by fax, or by verbal
4 communication, indicating their support of the
5 new CARL boundary.
6 And we appreciate that very, very much.
7 I'd like now to introduce one or two other
8 people before I introduce our commissioners.
9 One man who is very familiar to all of you,
10 I know, Mr. Jim MacFarland, who is formerly the
11 Director -- State Director of Land Acquisition.
12 He wants to speak briefly this morning
13 concerning the proposal that is before you.
14 MR. MacFARLAND: Thank you very much.
15 First of all, I'd like to admit, Governor,
16 I have been lost in Tate's Hell.
17 Also, your earlier remarks, where a lot of
18 what I was going to say, you have said it much
19 better. I became involved in Grayton Beach when
20 I was the Director of State Lands when I first
21 came down here.
22 In '84 and '85, one of the -- now
23 commissioner, Van Ness Butler, managed the
24 property for FDIC. It was the Grayton Beach
25 property, included hundreds of acres of
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1 beachfront. It was put on the Save Our Coast
2 list.
3 There was some surplus property there,
4 too. There was a lot of land north of 98.
5 The FDIC basically said, we're going to put
6 auction, if you want; to really get it, you have
7 to buy all the property. The Governor in
8 that -- and the Cabinet at that time told the
9 staff to go ahead and do it, all the property
10 was purchased. And Van Ness led that effort.
11 That was sort of a prototype of having to
12 buy additional property. It is now managed by
13 the State, and it's very environmentally
14 sensitive. It was a good decision.
15 I know a lot of the members of the -- the
16 Trust and I speak for the Land Selection
17 Committee. The people that have looked at this
18 issue are very capable, very competent. And
19 I think what they've come up -- the boundaries
20 are very good.
21 One of the things I need to point out is,
22 you know, there's talk about the tax revenue
23 loss. One of the former speakers mentioned the
24 prices of property in South Walton.
25 One of the things that's happened there
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1 because of the Grayton purchase, because of the
2 Topsail, Point Washington purchase, it has made
3 the remaining land very expensive. And that's
4 why Walton County needs some assistance.
5 In fact, I was just advised the other day
6 that DOT had money for widening Highway 98, they
7 just discovered that the price has doubled, they
8 do not have the money, they have to go back to
9 get additional funding.
10 Walton County has become a very desirable
11 area from my -- first time I was over there, I
12 fell in love with it. I'm now a property owner
13 over there. I go over quite a bit. And you can
14 just watch the changes.
15 The people in South Walton County -- the
16 beaches over there, in my opinion, are the best
17 beaches in the United States. They're
18 absolutely beautiful.
19 South Walton will be a model -- it'll be
20 one of the -- you know, the best places to
21 live. They're just going to say South Walton
22 will go to the top of the list. It's that
23 unique.
24 I think the boundaries that have been
25 developed by -- by all the people is a good
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1 one. The surplusing of a few hundred acres is
2 not going to effect the environment in there,
3 and actually, quite frankly, is the prudent
4 thing to do.
5 Any manager of property that's configured
6 like that would look at how they could best come
7 up with the boundaries. Any prudent owner would
8 take a look at it.
9 In addition, I'd like to ask you since
10 property val-- are changing, if you approve the
11 list today, is to encourage DEP to, one, to
12 quickly buy the inholdings in Topsail Hill, the
13 park there; and also in Point Washington, to
14 make those connectors, to do that as soon as
15 possible, and go through the surplus process, so
16 the County can put --
17 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
18 room.)
19 MR. MacFARLAND: -- some of the
20 infrastructure in that they need.
21 And thank you very much.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
23 MR. MacFARLAND: It's also my pleasure to
24 introduce Van Ness Butler, who's now an elected
25 Commissioner.
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1 MR. BUTLER: Governor and Cabinet members,
2 it's an honor to appear before you today.
3 I am Van Ness Butler, a newly elected
4 County Commissioner for District 5, which
5 includes all of South Walton County, all
6 26 miles of Gulf front.
7 I'm a third generation native of
8 Grayton Beach. My grandfather and my father
9 developed Grayton Beach. My grandfather built a
10 hotel there in 1922.
11 My father graduated from University of
12 Florida in 1926, and was teacher and principal
13 in South Walton for some 30 years. He recently,
14 at age ninety-three, had the honor of having the
15 new South Walton Elementary School, Van Butler
16 Elementary, which will open this fall, named for
17 him, which was an honor, and I'm happy for him.
18 But you, Governor, and fellow Cabinet
19 members, are to be congratulated for your vision
20 and foresight in helping Walton County acquire
21 the land for that school so that school could
22 become a reality.
23 In the late '70s and '80s, I was a leading
24 advocate of the State's purchase of
25 Grayton Dunes, and worked very hard to bring
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1 about that acquisition, as Mr. MacFarland told
2 you.
3 We were finally successful in '85 and '86
4 when the State acquired this beautiful
5 property. This was the State's first purchase
6 of environmentally endangered lands in
7 Walton County.
8 In 1993 and '94, I had the honor of serving
9 on the South Walton Conservation and Development
10 Trust, a Trust composed of twelve members
11 appointed by the Governor, and the Walton County
12 Commission, and funded by the Legislature to
13 study the 18,000 acres of the Point Washington
14 CARL acquisition.
15 The Trust was formed to make -- make --
16 recommendations on any further State
17 acquisitions and dispositions of land in
18 South Walton County.
19 I had the honor of serving with Jim Early,
20 Secretary of Department of Community Affairs;
21 and George Wilson, of the Nature Conservancy on
22 this Trust.
23 The outcome of that planning effort is
24 before you today. The -- after going through a
25 number of committees, and -- this is the final
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1 recommendation from the LMAC Committee to change
2 the CARL boundary, which would allow for
3 surplusing of the proposed South Walton County
4 town center.
5 Believe me, this property has been studied
6 from every aspect, from our environmentally --
7 we've stated the drainage, storm water drainage,
8 the -- everything has been done down to the nuts
9 and bolts on this property.
10 It's vital to Walton County to be able to
11 acquire this property for the town center, to
12 provide for the South Walton County -- the
13 Walton County infrastructure needs, such as a
14 South Walton County annex; the library;
15 Okaloosa-Walton Community College wants to place
16 a branch in this area.
17 The -- its local school board wants to
18 place a junior high school, and possibly a
19 high school in this area.
20 The Walton County Health Department has
21 expressed interest in locating a facility in
22 this area.
23 The fire department is interested in
24 locating facilities for the fire department.
25 So what we're asking for really is help
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1 from you to provide for county infrastructure
2 needs in South Walton County. And we appreciate
3 all the help you've given us so far.
4 Thank you.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you,
6 Commissioner Butler.
7 MR. YOUNG: The other commissioners that
8 are with us here today, Commissioner Gordon
9 Porter; Commissioner Joel Paul; Commissioner
10 Randall Infinger; and our county attorney,
11 George Ralph Miller.
12 Other local officials who are here with us
13 today: We have Mr. Tom Powell. He's the
14 Executive Director of the Walton County Economic
15 Development Council.
16 And we have Mr. Malcolm Patterson. He's
17 the Executive Director of the South Walton
18 Tourist Development Council.
19 And there is one or two people that
20 Mr. Patterson would like to introduce.
21 MR. PATTERSON: Thank you very much,
22 Mr. Chairman, and Governor and members of the
23 Cabinet.
24 I also have the pleasure of serving on the
25 Conservation and Development Trust. I bring
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1 with it a couple of people that are supporting
2 the proposal before you this morning.
3 One of them is Vernon Allen representing
4 the Sandestin Resort. And the other one is
5 Don Quatey, who's the general manager of the
6 Sandestin Beach Hilton, and is also the chairman
7 of the Tourist Development Council.
8 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
9 MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Patterson.
10 All of us are here today to express -- to
11 express our support for the new CARL boundary.
12 And we just want to say that we thank you very
13 much for the action which you initiated back in
14 1992.
15 Governor Chiles and other Cabinet members,
16 when you looked at this situation, and you
17 sought to find a balance between the
18 conservation and the development needs as far as
19 Walton County is concerned, and we just
20 appreciate it very much when you called for this
21 review to be done to see which parcels of these
22 properties might be disposed of to either the
23 public or the private sector.
24 As you recall, many, many State dollars
25 were expended in studying this project. It was
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1 studied in great detail, as Mr. Butler pointed
2 out. And this -- this final report, which you
3 were given this morning, I think it beautifully
4 expresses a plan that expresses our vision of
5 South Walton's economy for our future, and the
6 community.
7 And we would just like to say today, we ask
8 you to approve this, and we are convinced that
9 if you approve this new boundary, and if you
10 approve the disposition of the lands outside the
11 boundary, I think this is going to give us an
12 opportunity to fulfill the vision expressed in
13 the final report of this South Walton
14 Conservation and Development Trust.
15 We envision a new home town complex,
16 courthouse annex, schools, a library, community
17 college, affordable housing. And all of these
18 things we desperately need in South Walton.
19 And on behalf of the Commission, I just
20 want to thank you, and the Legislature, for what
21 you did in the way of participation in these
22 projects. I thank you for directing it to be
23 done. And I thank the Legislature and all of
24 you involved for funding these projects.
25 And I just want to commend all of those who
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1 were involved in this work which went on. This
2 report represents a tremendous amount of very,
3 very hard work on the part of many individuals.
4 I am very, very proud and thankful for what
5 they've done. Many local people, many local
6 officials, many State and Federal officials, all
7 had input into this plan. And we as a Board of
8 County Commissioners, I assure you, are
9 committed to making this work.
10 We respectfully ask you today to approve
11 this new CARL boundary, and to help us begin
12 putting our plan into action.
13 Thank you --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you --
15 MR. MacFARLAND: -- very, very much.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Mr. Chairman.
17 Thank you.
18 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I have a
19 question of clarification.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
21 TREASURER NELSON: Is it correct, Governor,
22 that what we will be voting on is the CARL
23 boundary, and only the CARL boundary, not the
24 question of the disposition of surplus lines.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think that's right.
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1 I think at this meeting, that's what we're
2 prepared to do.
3 I would suggest that -- that we might want
4 to ask the Secretary to come back in 90 days,
5 what -- what period of time do you need?
6 MS. WETHERELL: I think 90 days is what the
7 folks have been talking about as a realistic
8 time frame.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is that sufficient time
10 to --
11 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That being the case,
13 Governor, I'd like to move Item 8, acceptance of
14 the '97 CARL annual report, and approval of the
15 1997 CARL Priority List.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Governor, I have --
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 MS. WETHERELL: -- made a faux pas in that
19 I did not call on one speaker. And that is
20 George Wilson from the Nature Conservancy.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: He's
22 responsible for this whole thing.
23 If he did not take that free piece of land
24 a few years ago, we'd never be in this position
25 now.
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1 He negotiated that, Governor. That just
2 shows, no good deed ever goes unpunished.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: You want to call on him
4 then?
5 MS. WETHERELL: George, would you like to
6 come forward? I apologize to you.
7 MR. WILSON: I'll defer. With that motion,
8 that's perfect.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. All right. He's a
10 very wise man.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, that's
12 interesting. I -- you know, there were some
13 feathers on him at one time, a little bit
14 earlier, and a little tar. I'm glad that come
15 off now.
16 MR. WILSON: I wanted to remind you that I
17 was one of your appointees on the Trust.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Why was he
19 not reappointed, Governor?
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. We have a
21 motion and a second.
22 Is there discussion?
23 Without objection, it's approved. The
24 boundaries are approved.
25 I want to thank all of you. I think it's
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1 kind of interesting. I think this notes that
2 democracy isn't always pretty, but somehow it
3 works.
4 And I think all of the work that all of you
5 have done certainly has helped put together what
6 looks like an outstanding report.
7 And I think that it's given the County an
8 awful lot of push of recognizing when everybody
9 does kind of work together and recognize that
10 there is a way of balancing all of these
11 economic, ecological, and other needs that we
12 have, that it can work.
13 You prove it to us by your actions, and we
14 thank you very much for that.
15 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. Substitute Item 9 is
16 a consent of use for severance, a temporary use
17 of submerged lands --
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10 is amendments to
24 the St. Joe Bay Aquatic Preserve Manage--
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
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1 MS. WETHERELL: --ment Plan --
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved, seconded.
5 Without objection, that's approved.
6 MS. WETHERELL: And, Governor, I just
7 wanted to recognize a County Commissioner,
8 Warren Yeager, who is here who cochaired this
9 effort and made it possible.
10 Commissioner Yeager.
11 Thank you.
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is he standing?
13 MS. WETHERELL: It's hard to tell.
14 That concludes our agenda.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: That's it.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
18 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
19 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
20 *
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1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We're not done?
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Don't we
3 still have Administration Commission?
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
5 Administration Commission.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on
7 the minutes.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, the minutes are
11 approved.
12 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, recommend
13 approval of Items A, B, and C in the Justice
14 Administration --
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend
20 approval of the transfer of general revenue
21 appropriations to the Department of Children and
22 Families.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, that's approved.
2 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 4,
3 administration -- request approval for
4 publishing in the Florida Administrative --
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
6 DR. BRADLEY: This would be the notice --
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, that's approved.
10 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
11 concluded.)
12 *
13 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
14 11:40 a.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 93 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 21ST day of FEBRUARY, 1997.
17
18
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
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