Cabinet
Affairs |
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2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
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Representing:
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
6 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
7 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY
AND MOTOR VEHICLES
8 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
9 STATE BOARD OF CAREER EDUCATION
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
10 FLORIDA LAND AND WATER
ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION
11 TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
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13 The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
14 presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
15 January 23, 1996, commencing at approximately
9:45 a.m.
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Reported by:
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LAURIE L. GILBERT
19 Registered Professional Reporter
Certified Court Reporter
20 Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
24 100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
25 904/878-2221
1-800/934-9090
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
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BOB CRAWFORD
5 Commissioner of Agriculture
6 BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
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SANDRA B. MORTHAM
8 Secretary of State
9 BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
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BILL NELSON
11 Treasurer
12 FRANK T. BROGAN
Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
January 23, 1996
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Ash Williams, Jr.,
4 Executive Director)
5 1 Approved 7
2 Approved 7
6 3 Approved 7
4 Approved 7
7 5 Approved 8
6 Approved 9
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
9 (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
Director)
10
1 Approved 10
11 2 Approved 10
3 Approved 11
12 4 Approved 11
5 Approved 12
13 6 Approved 13
14 INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION:
(Presented by John Douglas,
15 Interim Executive Director)
16 1 Approved 16
2 Approved 16
17 3 Approved 20
4 Approved 21
18 5 Approved 21
19 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES:
(Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
20 Executive Director)
21 1 Approved 22
2 Approved 22
22 3 Approved 22
4 Approved 23
23 5 Approved 23
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
January 23, 1996
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
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DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
4 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
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1 Approved 24
6 2 Approved 24
3 Approved 24
7 4 Approved 24
8 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
9 Deputy Commissioner)
10 1 Approved 72
2 Approved 72
11 3 Approved 74
4 Deferred 72
12 5 Withdrawn 74
6 Approved 75
13 7 Approved 75
14 STATE BOARD OF CAREER EDUCATION:
(Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
15 Deputy Commissioner)
16 1 Approved 76
2 Approved 76
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ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
18 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
Secretary)
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1 Approved 77
20 2 Approved 77
3 Withdrawn 78
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FLORIDA LAND AND WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION:
22 (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
Secretary)
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1 Approved 79
24 2 Approved 79
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
January 23, 1996
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
2
ITEM ACTION PAGE
3
BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
4 INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
5 (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
Secretary)
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1 Approved 80
7 2 Approved 80
3 Approved 80
8 4 Approved 80
5 Approved 81
9 6 Approved 81
7 Approved 81
10 8 Withdrawn 81
9 Approved 82
11 10 Approved 82
11 Approved 82
12 12 Approved 82
13 Approved 83
13 14 Approved 83
15 Approved 83
14 16 Approved 84
17 Approved 84
15 18 Approved 84
19 Approved 84
16 20 Approved 85
21 Approved 85
17 22 Approved 85
Second
18 Substitute 23 Approved 104
24 Approved 116
19 25 Approved 121
26 Deferred 121
20 27 Approved 122
21 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 124
22 *
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
January 23, 1996
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
10:28 2 (The agenda items commenced at 10:28 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
4 Administration.
5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Sir, how
6 much do you get paid, may I ask?
7 TREASURER NELSON: You asked the wrong
8 person.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You asked the wrong
10 person.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: Is that a serious question,
12 General?
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Serious
14 question.
15 MR. WILLIAMS: A hundred and thirty-six
16 thousand eight hundred dollars.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thank you.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 1 is approval of the
19 minutes of December 12 meeting.
10:28 20 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
10:28 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: I'm just wondering why
10:28 22 they don't have a motion, whether you still get
10:28 23 that much --
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I don't
25 think so.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
January 23, 1996
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10:28 1 TREASURER NELSON: I move it, Governor.
10:28 2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
10:28 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Been moved and seconded.
10:28 4 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:28 5 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 2 is an interest rate
10:28 6 exception for the Housing Authority,
10:28 7 City of Tampa.
10:28 8 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
10:28 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
10:28 10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:28 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:28 12 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:28 13 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 3 is an interest rate
10:28 14 exception, Santa Rosa Bay Bridge Authority.
10:28 15 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
10:29 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I second it.
10:29 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:29 18 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:29 19 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 4 is an interest rate
10:29 20 exception, Tampa Palms Open Space,
10:29 21 Transportation Community Development District.
10:29 22 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
10:29 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:29 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:29 25 Without objection, it's agreed to.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
January 23, 1996
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10:29 1 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 5 is appointment and
10:29 2 reappointment of Investment Advisory Council
10:29 3 members. This would affect Mr. William Miller
10:29 4 and a new member, Mr. James Pugh.
10:29 5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
10:29 6 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10:29 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:29 8 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:29 9 MR. WILLIAMS: Item 6, reports of the
10:29 10 executive director. We have --
10:29 11 (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
10:29 12 MR. WILLIAMS: -- the investment
10:29 13 performance and fund balance analysis for
10:29 14 November '95 and December '95, and also
10:29 15 information on review of the matters of the
10:29 16 Cat Fund Bonding Capacity.
10:29 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: How did we do?
10:29 18 MR. WILLIAMS: Excuse me?
10:29 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: How did we do?
10:29 20 MR. WILLIAMS: On our bond capacity?
10:29 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: No. On our performance.
10:30 22 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, we did very well. We
10:30 23 had a calendar year performance well in excess
10:30 24 of the investment return assumption. Our return
10:30 25 assumption is 8 percent, and our return was
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
January 23, 1996
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10:30 1 north of 23 percent.
10:30 2 TREASURER NELSON: And in the Cat Fund,
10:30 3 we've got close to a million dollars in --
10:30 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: You're making it sound
10:30 5 like he's worth his money.
10:30 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Let's
10:30 7 increase it to 7 percent.
10:30 8 TREASURER NELSON: This year anyway.
10:30 9 Governor, we have the bonding capacity now
10:30 10 of 4 billion dollars in the Catastrophic Fund.
10:30 11 And some would calculate that even higher. And
10:30 12 certainly it'll be higher as the fund increases.
10:30 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good.
10:30 14 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
10:30 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: I have to make sure I got
10:30 16 a motion on that. I kind of interrupted.
10:30 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
10:30 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
10:30 19 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10:30 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
10:30 21 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:30 22 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
23 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
24 was concluded.)
25 *
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
10
10:30 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Division of Bond Finance.
10:30 2 MR. WATKINS: Item 1 is --
10:31 3 (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
10:31 4 MR. WATKINS: -- approval of the minutes of
5 the December 12th meeting.
10:31 6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
10:31 7 TREASURER NELSON: Second.
10:31 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:31 9 Without objection, it's approved.
10:31 10 MR. WATKINS: Item number 2 authorizes the
10:31 11 distribution of an RFP for selection of bond
10:31 12 counsel in connection with Department of
10:31 13 Transportation's right-of-way acquisition and
10:31 14 bid -- bridge construction bonding program.
10:31 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion.
10:31 16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:31 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:31 18 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:31 19 MR. WATKINS: Item number 3 authorizes the
10:31 20 issuance of up to 500 million dollars in bonds
10:31 21 for Department of Transportation right-of-way
10:31 22 acquisition and bridge construction bond
10:31 23 program.
10:31 24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:31 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
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10:31 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:31 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:31 3 Without objection, it's approved.
10:31 4 MR. WATKINS: Item number 4 authorizes a
10:31 5 distribution of a solicitation document in
10:31 6 connection with the selection of a credit
10:31 7 facility provider for the Comptroller's
10:31 8 consolidated equipment financing program, and
10:31 9 competitive offering and award of such financing
10:31 10 facility.
10:31 11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:31 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
10:31 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:32 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
10:32 15 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:32 16 MR. WATKINS: Item 5 is a report of award
10:32 17 of two hundred thirty-seven point seven million
10:32 18 dollar PECO refunding sold at competitive sale
10:32 19 on December 6th.
10:32 20 It resulted -- in was sold at an int-- a
10:32 21 true interest rate of 5.11 percent, resulted in
10:32 22 growth savings to the State of 36.2 million
10:32 23 dollars over 26 years, and a present value
10:32 24 savings of 20.6 million dollars.
10:32 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
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10:32 1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:32 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:32 3 Without objection, it's agreed to.
10:32 4 That's a tremendously important item
10:32 5 there. That's going to allow us -- that and
10:32 6 other refinancing to be done. That's going to
10:32 7 allow our PECO funds to be way higher than we
10:32 8 had anticipated.
10:32 9 We had thought we had reached the point
10:32 10 where PECO funds were really going to take a dip
10:32 11 this year. We would have all heard about that
10:32 12 from our -- our customers of the PECO fund.
10:32 13 That's now up in the terms of what --
10:33 14 eight hundred and something million where we
10:33 15 thought it was going to be well below
10:33 16 six hundred million.
10:33 17 MR. WATKINS: Item number 6 is a report of
10:33 18 award on bonds issued on behalf of the Florida
10:33 19 Housing Finance Agency for three multifamily
10:33 20 housing projects.
10:33 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:33 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved.
10:33 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- the
10:33 24 second, be no housing.
10:33 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
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10:33 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second with a
10:33 2 comment, Governor, if I may.
10:33 3 I have been at this now for a little over a
10:33 4 year. And every one of the Florida
10:33 5 Housing Finance Agency bond finance efforts are
10:33 6 negotiated. I have yet to see a competitive
10:33 7 bond finance. And I know they're studying that
10:33 8 as a possibility.
10:33 9 And I also recognize that negotiated is not
10:33 10 necessarily wrong. It depends on the situation,
10:34 11 competitive and negotiated at times have their
10:34 12 right place.
10:34 13 But I'd sure like to see -- and I know it's
10:34 14 not your burden. But I'd sure like to see some
10:34 15 real movement to competitive bidding in the
10:34 16 process as it pertains to the Florida Housing
10:34 17 Finance Agency. It's only a statement.
10:34 18 I do second the motion.
10:34 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: I -- without objection,
10:34 20 the motion is adopted.
10:34 21 I appreciate those comments. I've been
10:34 22 trying to get the Bond Finance Agency forever to
10:34 23 at least try one competitive sale. But --
10:34 24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: It'd be thrilling,
10:34 25 wouldn't it?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
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10:34 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: It would be. It would
10:34 2 be.
10:34 3 I just want to ask one question here. I'm
10:34 4 looking at a rate of 6 percent in these -- in
10:34 5 the first period, as opposed to 4.50 and 4.50 in
10:34 6 the second two series.
10:34 7 Can you tell me some reason why these
10:34 8 West Palm Beach --
10:34 9 MR. WATKINS: On that particular issue,
10:34 10 Governor --
10:34 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- Boot Ranch West
10:35 12 Apartments, I don't know.
10:35 13 MR. WATKINS: The Boot Ranch West
10:35 14 Apartments project was sold. It was a long-term
10:35 15 fixed rate financing, whereas the items B and C
10:35 16 were a lower floater, it was a weekly rate that
10:35 17 had --
10:35 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Oh, I see.
10:35 19 MR. WATKINS: -- that was backed by a
10:35 20 letter of credit. And, therefore, the weekly
10:35 21 rate is substantially less than a long-term
10:35 22 fixed rate would be. So it is, in effect, based
10:35 23 on the structure of the financing.
10:35 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: I see. Okay.
10:35 25 MR. WATKINS: So that's the reason under
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
January 23, 1996
15
10:35 1 those circumstances, Governor.
10:35 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
10:35 3 Thank you, sir.
10:35 4 MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir.
5 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
6 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:35 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Information Resource
10:35 2 Commission.
10:35 3 MR. DOUGLAS: Good morning, Governor,
10:35 4 members of the Cabinet.
10:35 5 Item number 1 is the approval of the
10:35 6 minutes of the meeting of December 12th, 1995.
10:35 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:35 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:35 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:35 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:35 11 Without objection, it's approved.
10:35 12 MR. DOUGLAS: Item number 2 is approval of
10:35 13 the Information Resource Commission's quarterly
14 report.
10:35 15 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.)
10:35 16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:36 17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:36 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:36 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
10:36 21 Without objection, it's approved.
10:36 22 MR. DOUGLAS: On item number 3, Governor,
10:36 23 I'd like to recognize Mrs. Linda Fuchs, who
10:36 24 chaired our Public Access User Advisory Group,
10:36 25 developing the recommendations which we're about
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:36 1 to ask you to recommend approval.
10:36 2 MS. FUCHS: Good morning.
10:36 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
10:36 4 MS. FUCHS: We were here a few months ago,
10:36 5 and -- where you approved the workplan of the
10:36 6 group. In June, again, you had requested
10:36 7 recommendations in six specific areas regarding
10:36 8 public access and expanded public access to
10:36 9 government information services.
10:36 10 The Public Access User Advisory Group was
10:36 11 appointed by IRMAC and has addressed those six
10:36 12 areas.
10:36 13 The advisory group had 20 members.
10:36 14 Thirteen members came from state government, one
10:36 15 from local government, four from trade or
10:36 16 not-for-profit associations, and two from
10:36 17 private industry.
10:36 18 Over a series of twelve weeks, the groups
10:37 19 met, educated themselves about the issues,
10:37 20 thought about them, discussed them, and proposed
10:37 21 the recommendations that you have before you
10:37 22 now.
10:37 23 Those recommendations were presented to
10:37 24 IRMAC at the end of November, and approved
10:37 25 unanimously by IRMAC at their meeting.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:37 1 The public was a form -- was informed about
10:37 2 our process. The IRC maintained a mailing list
10:37 3 of 150 interested parties which received regular
10:37 4 mailings about all efforts of the group.
10:37 5 Information about our effort and the
10:37 6 recommendations were posted on the Internet on
10:37 7 the Florida Government Information Locator
8 Service --
9 (Comptroller Milligan entered the room.)
10:37 10 MS. FUCHS: -- and Secretary Mortham also
10:37 11 issued a press release regarding the efforts of
10:37 12 the group.
10:37 13 In addition to the recommendations, or as
10:37 14 a -- sort of a starting point for the
10:37 15 recommendations, the Advisory Group developed a
10:37 16 vision statement to set forth the desired result
10:37 17 for expanded public access efforts.
10:37 18 That vision statement is: The state of
10:38 19 Florida makes available access to all public
10:38 20 records, public information, and services using
10:38 21 a variety of methods and locations in an
10:38 22 organized, secure, and easy to use manner.
10:38 23 Following that vision statement then, the
10:38 24 recommendations that follow lay the foundations
10:38 25 for an efficient and effective public access
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:38 1 system.
10:38 2 The recommendations are focused on building
10:38 3 a solid infrastructure for public access, and we
10:38 4 recognize that practices will evolve as the
10:38 5 needs, the opportunities change, public demand,
10:38 6 and public use matures.
10:38 7 In addition to the six areas specifically
10:38 8 requested by you, the Advisory Group is
10:38 9 proposing certain recommendations which we
10:38 10 believe are fundamental to establishing an
10:38 11 effective and efficient public access
10:38 12 infrastructure.
10:38 13 This includes the principals of public
10:38 14 access to records and information. These
10:38 15 principals set forth a philosophy to be used as
10:38 16 a guide in shaping agency policies and
10:39 17 procedures.
10:39 18 We also encourage the establishment of
10:39 19 public information manager responsibilities in a
10:39 20 high level position to ensure the necessary
10:39 21 coordination and focus in each agency.
10:39 22 We also recommend that each agency adopt
10:39 23 and distribute a public access policy. This
10:39 24 would be a written document which would clearly
10:39 25 articulate the policies and practices of each
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:39 1 agency, and this document could be used to
10:39 2 communicate with the public, as well as used as
10:39 3 a training tool and procedures manual for staff.
10:39 4 And lastly, we are also recommending
10:39 5 several changes to security rules and statutes
10:39 6 now in effect to ensure that this access is
10:39 7 authorized and appropriate.
10:39 8 The opportunities provided by expanded
10:39 9 public access to government information are
10:39 10 almost unlimited, as you know. The challenges
10:39 11 lie in securing the leadership and management
10:39 12 commitment, and allocating resources to develop
10:39 13 the State's information infrastructure, to
10:39 14 change our existing systems to allow for secure
10:40 15 remote access, and to prepare the public for
10:40 16 remote public access to their information.
10:40 17 Are there any questions?
10:40 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Questions?
10:40 19 Thank you very much.
10:40 20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:40 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:40 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:40 23 Without objection, approved.
10:40 24 MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, Governor.
10:40 25 Governor, item number 4 is approval of the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
INFORMATION RESOURCE COMMISSION
January 23, 1996
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10:40 1 instructions for the Agency's Strategic Plan for
10:40 2 Information Resources Management.
10:40 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:40 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:40 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:40 6 Without objection, it's approved.
10:40 7 MR. DOUGLAS: Item number 5 is approval for
10:40 8 the Information Resource Management Advisory
10:40 9 Council recommendations on the section of the
10:40 10 Florida Statutes relating to information
10:40 11 resource management to the appropriate
10:40 12 legislative committees.
10:40 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:40 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
10:40 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:40 16 Without objection, approved.
10:40 17 MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, Governor.
10:40 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
19 (The Information Resource Commission Agenda
20 was concluded.)
21 *
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
Janauary 23, 1996
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10:40 1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
10:41 2 Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles.
10:41 3 MR. DICKINSON: Governor, item 1 are the
10:41 4 minutes -- approval of the minutes from the last
10:41 5 two Cabinet meetings.
10:41 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
10:41 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:41 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:41 9 Without objection, they're approved.
10:41 10 MR. DICKINSON: Item 2 is request
10:41 11 permission to repeal the following rules.
10:41 12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:41 13 MR. DICKINSON: It's two rules.
10:41 14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:41 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:41 16 Without objection, it's approved.
10:41 17 MR. DICKINSON: Item 3 is to conform the
10:41 18 current rules with the current statutory
10:41 19 language. It's a basic cleanup and -- we're
10:41 20 shrinking the rule --
10:41 21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:41 22 MR. DICKINSON: -- Governor.
10:41 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:41 24 Without objection, it's approved.
10:41 25 MR. DICKINSON: Item 4 is a rule that we
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY/MOTOR VEHICLES
Janauary 23, 1996
23
10:41 1 deferred from one of our Cabinet meetings prior
10:41 2 dealing with dealers and the way they sell motor
10:41 3 vehicles.
10:41 4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:41 5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:41 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:41 7 Without objection, it's approved.
10:41 8 MR. DICKINSON: Item 5 is a -- request
10:41 9 approval to enter into contract for a continuing
10:42 10 evaluation of our DUI program. This is a
10:42 11 two-year contract that was competitively bid.
10:42 12 We got one bid in, and we have negotiated down
10:42 13 below the budget that's in our statutory
10:42 14 requirement.
10:42 15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
10:42 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
10:42 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
10:42 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:42 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:42 20 Without objection, it's approved.
10:42 21 MR. DICKINSON: Thank you, Governor.
22 (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
23 Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
24 *
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
January 23, 1996
24
10:42 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
10:42 2 MR. FUCHS: Governor and members, item 1 is
10:42 3 a request for approval of minutes.
10:42 4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:42 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10:42 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10:42 7 Without objection, they're approved.
10:42 8 MR. FUCHS: Items 2 through 4 are request
10:42 9 for permission to --
10:42 10 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
10:42 11 MR. FUCHS: -- delete -- or repeal rules.
10:42 12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
10:42 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second items 2
10:43 14 through 4, Secretary, inclusive. Yes.
10:43 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Moved and
10:43 16 seconded on items 2, 3, 4.
10:43 17 Without objection, they're approved.
10:43 18 MR. FUCHS: Those are the only agenda
10:43 19 items.
10:43 20 I would like to report briefly on two items
10:43 21 having to do with child support enforcement. On
10:43 22 Monday, I'm going to attend a statewide meeting
10:43 23 of the Sheriffs of Florida to compliment them
10:43 24 and thank them for their efforts in the latest
10:43 25 arrest sweep, resulted in something just over
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
January 23, 1996
25
10:43 1 1,000 arrests of individuals who had outstanding
10:43 2 writs of bodily attachment; and a collection of
10:43 3 just over $500,000, about a half million
10:43 4 dollars, for the children of Florida.
10:43 5 That makes the results of the two arrest
10:43 6 sweeps about 2,000 arrests, and close to
10:43 7 1.1 million dollars for -- for the children.
10:43 8 And I believe the Sheriffs intend to do that --
10:43 9 continue that effort on an ongoing basis.
10:43 10 We also are going to request the
10:43 11 Legislature extend authority for those writs to
10:43 12 be placed --
10:44 13 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
14 MR. FUCHS: -- on the Florida Crime
10:44 15 Information computer system so that when
10:44 16 individuals who are wanted in such
10:44 17 circumstances, are stopped for traffic
10:44 18 violations, or other potentially criminal
10:44 19 offenses, the deputies or police officers would
10:44 20 be alerted to the fact that they have
10:44 21 outstanding child support enforcement writs.
10:44 22 Secondly, we have just begun a
10:44 23 privatization initiative where we have two
10:44 24 private firms competing against each other on a
10:44 25 statewide basis to collect child support
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
January 23, 1996
26
10:44 1 enforcement in cases where no money has been
10:44 2 paid for at least four or five months.
10:44 3 We have distributed approximately 100,000
10:44 4 cases, 50,000 apiece, to these companies, and
10:44 5 they will be compensated out of federal
10:44 6 incentive funds so that no money will be
10:44 7 actually taken from the amount due to the
10:44 8 children.
10:44 9 They have just begun their efforts, and I
10:44 10 would hope to be able to report to you at the
10:44 11 end of the fiscal year on considerable success.
10:45 12 Eventually, the firm that does a better job
10:45 13 will be awarded the contract for the entire
10:45 14 state. We felt this was a better way of doing
10:45 15 it than trying to subjectively determine in
16 advance which one we thought would perform
17 better.
18 Thank you.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you very much. We
20 appreciate your efforts in this.
21 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
22 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
23 concluded.)
24 *
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
27
10:45 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Education.
10:45 2 MR. BEDFORD: Good morning,
10:45 3 Governor Chiles, members of the State Board of
4 Education.
10:45 5 We have had a request from a member of the
10:45 6 State Board of Education to take the items out
10:45 7 of order, and a request to go with item number 4
10:45 8 first from Comptroller Milligan.
10:45 9 The item number 4, Governor Chiles, there
10:45 10 are several members of the audience that wish to
10:45 11 have an opportunity to address this issue
10:45 12 today. But with your permission, I would like
10:45 13 to give a very brief historical perspective.
10:45 14 The Florida Legislature in 1986 placed into
10:46 15 law that passing a CLAST would be a requirement
10:46 16 for teachers as a test of basic skills. The
10:46 17 first administration of a CLAST for this purpose
10:46 18 was in 1988.
10:46 19 The 1994 Legislature passed Senate --
10:46 20 excuse me -- Committee Substitute Senate Bill
10:46 21 1018, which amended Florida Statute 231.17, and
10:46 22 this bill became widely known as the
10:46 23 Alternative CLAST.
10:46 24 The rule before you today is the
10:46 25 Commissioner's recommendation for an amendment
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
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10:46 1 to Rule 6A, dash, 4.0021, Florida Teacher
10:46 2 Certification Examination.
10:46 3 The Education Standards Commission has met,
10:46 4 developed recommendations, held public hearings,
10:46 5 submitted recommendations, which I believe you
10:46 6 have seen, and an additional copy was
10:46 7 distributed to each member of the State Board of
10:46 8 Education on Friday.
10:46 9 At this time, I would like to introduce to
10:46 10 you Dr. Charlotte Minnick-Boroto, the Executive
10:46 11 Director of the Education Standards Commission.
10:46 12 And with her is Steve Bouzianis, a member
10:46 13 of the Education Standards Commission.
14 MS. MINNICK-BOROTO: Good morning,
10:47 15 Governor Chiles, members of the State Board of
10:47 16 Education. I am Charlotte Minnick Boroto, and I
10:47 17 am here representing the Standards Commission as
10:47 18 their Executive Director.
10:47 19 As Bob said, Steve Bouzianis is here. He
10:47 20 is a school personnel officer from the
10:47 21 Seminole County School District.
10:47 22 The purpose of our presentation is to share
10:47 23 with you the recommendations of the Education
10:47 24 Standards Commission on the alternatives to
10:47 25 CLAST for issuance of a professional
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
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10:47 1 certificate.
10:47 2 There will be two parts to our
10:47 3 presentation. First I will share with you how
10:47 4 those recommendations were developed, and
10:47 5 Mr. Bouzianis will share with you those
10:47 6 recommendations themselves.
10:47 7 In September of 1994, the Commission began
10:47 8 its review of this issue. Its first task was to
10:47 9 identify assumptions or guidelines that would
10:48 10 form the basis for their decision making about
10:48 11 this issue.
10:48 12 The first guideline was that, indeed,
10:48 13 teachers must have basic skills, and they should
10:48 14 be able to demonstrate knowledge of these basic
10:48 15 skills.
10:48 16 The second guideline -- and I would be
10:48 17 remiss if I did not tell you this is an
10:48 18 underlying assumption of the Commission for at
10:48 19 least the past four years -- is that it is not
10:48 20 the number of hours, it is not the credits or
10:48 21 the transcript that indicates what a teacher
10:48 22 knows and is able to do in the work setting.
10:48 23 But it is the application of the knowledge
10:48 24 in the work setting that is an indication what
10:48 25 those teachers are able to do, and help our
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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January 23, 1996
30
10:48 1 students perform better.
10:48 2 The third guideline was that the CLAST may
10:48 3 test the knowledge of the basic skills necessary
10:48 4 for teachers in the regular work setting. It
10:48 5 does not necessarily test the application of
10:48 6 that knowledge in the work setting.
10:49 7 With these guidelines in mind, the
10:49 8 Commission began gathering data. Its first
10:49 9 presentation was by the K through 12 House staff
10:49 10 and clarification on the intent of the statute.
10:49 11 The second data gathering effort was to
10:49 12 review and to hear presentations on a test that
10:49 13 is used by other states to test basic skills in
10:49 14 reading, writing, and communication. This test
10:49 15 is known as the Praxis I, and you will see it as
10:49 16 one of our recommendations.
10:49 17 The third effort was to look at the CLAST
10:49 18 test. We also looked at the test used for
10:49 19 subject matter for elementary education. We
10:49 20 also looked at the original Florida Teacher
10:49 21 Certification exam; and we collaborated with the
10:49 22 Department, with the Office of Student
10:49 23 Assessment, and also with the Office of Teacher
10:49 24 Certification.
10:50 25 Our final data gathering efforts were to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
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10:50 1 hold five public hearings. These were held in
10:50 2 Tallahassee, in Fort Lauderdale, in Pensacola,
10:50 3 Daytona Beach, and Auburndale.
10:50 4 After hearing the testimony, and after much
10:50 5 discussion and deliberation, the Commission came
10:50 6 up with its recommendations that Mr. Bouzianis
10:50 7 will now present to you.
10:50 8 MR. BOUZIANIS: Good morning.
10:50 9 The recommendations of the Standards
10:50 10 Commission regarding this issue were as
10:50 11 follows:
10:50 12 Number one, that the Praxis I test, a
10:50 13 national academic skills assessment, which
10:50 14 measures proficiency in the basic skills of
10:50 15 reading, writing, and mathematics be available
10:50 16 as an alternative to CLAST.
10:50 17 Number two, that a school district's team,
10:50 18 as mandated in section 30 of the section 231.27,
10:50 19 Florida Statutes which would consist of the
10:50 20 applicant's principal, a peer teacher, and a
10:50 21 district level supervisor would review the
10:50 22 applicant's official transcript to determine if
10:51 23 the applicant has successfully completed
10:51 24 6 semester hours with a grade of C or better in
10:51 25 the area of the CLAST subtest failed.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
32
10:51 1 Before I go on, I would like to point out
10:51 2 that our initial recommendation did include the
10:51 3 grade of a B. This was prior to the public
10:51 4 hearings.
10:51 5 After listening to the public hearings, we
10:51 6 heard some points of contention where that a C
10:51 7 was required in terms of the Gordon rule, and
10:51 8 also that a 2.5 was required for initial
10:51 9 certification in the subject area.
10:51 10 After much deliberation, we went through
10:51 11 and discussed the grade that would be required
10:51 12 in detail, and we had a problem with the
10:51 13 2.5 average, because if a student took one math
10:51 14 course, got an A; and took the second math
10:51 15 course and got a D, that would average out to a
10:51 16 2.5, which was our concern.
10:51 17 I think the overriding factor from a
10:51 18 personal opinion was the Gordon rule that
10:51 19 required a C in order for a student to go on to
10:51 20 the next grade level.
10:51 21 So after much deliberation, we decided on a
10:51 22 C grade.
10:52 23 Next, if the 6 semester hours had been
10:52 24 completed, the school district shall require the
10:52 25 applicant to demonstrate that he or she is
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
33
10:52 1 competent in the deficient generic competency
10:52 2 scale in the CLAST subtest, through observation,
10:52 3 structured interview, and/or portfolio
10:52 4 documentation.
10:52 5 If the applicant has not successfully
10:52 6 completed 6 semester hours of college
10:52 7 course work in the area of the CLAST subtest
10:52 8 failed with a grade of C or better, the school
10:52 9 district shall require the applicant to take and
10:52 10 pass at least a designated postsecondary
10:52 11 preparatory course, or the equivalent of a
10:52 12 component, in an approved in-service plan in the
10:52 13 deficient area.
10:52 14 In addition, the individual shall
10:52 15 demonstrate that he or she is competent in the
10:52 16 deficient generic competencies in the area
10:52 17 failed through observation, structured
10:52 18 interview, and/or portfolio documentation.
10:52 19 Those were our recommendations. And just
10:52 20 in closing, I would like to make you aware that
10:52 21 this was really a problem that the Commission
10:53 22 wrestled with.
10:53 23 As a Commission, we felt like the lowering
10:53 24 of standards had actually occurred, when
10:53 25 previously in the Legislature there was this
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
34
10:53 1 provision to allow an alternative process after
10:53 2 a test had been failed four times. We really
10:53 3 wrestled with that in terms of making these
10:53 4 recommendations.
10:53 5 Thank you.
10:53 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
10:53 7 MR. BEDFORD: At this time, I believe the
10:53 8 Commissioner would like to make a few
10:53 9 statements.
10:53 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll wait till
10:53 11 after --
10:53 12 MR. BEDFORD: Okay. The next speaker,
10:53 13 Melinda Piller Swaford.
10:53 14 MS. PILLER SWAFORD: Good morning,
10:53 15 Governor. Members of the State Board.
10:53 16 My comments will be brief, and I believe
10:53 17 that Charlotte laid out the entire premise of
10:53 18 alternatives.
10:53 19 I want you to know that Florida Education
10:53 20 Association United is on record -- I know
10:53 21 you know this, I'm going to say it again -- we
10:53 22 are in total support of high standards, higher
10:54 23 standards, making public education the model for
10:54 24 the world when it comes to teaching children.
10:54 25 But what's going on here is not --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
35
10:54 1 I believe, not a case of high standards, it's a
10:54 2 case of a segment of the population that is
10:54 3 being really disenfranchised from going on --
10:54 4 working in their -- in their profession. And
10:54 5 they've been on temporary certificates for years
10:54 6 because we've been trying to get some kind of
10:54 7 option for these individuals.
10:54 8 And I wanted to tell you about some of the
10:54 9 real people that we're talking to month after
10:54 10 month and year after year. People that are in
10:54 11 the system, people that are doing outstanding
10:54 12 jobs in the system, but have difficulty in one
10:54 13 component of this CLAST test.
10:54 14 We support the Education Standards
10:54 15 Commission recommendations. We know the process
10:54 16 they went through, it was long, it was tedious,
10:54 17 there's a tremendous amount of work involved.
10:55 18 And these educators, if these alternatives are
10:55 19 out there for them, are going to have to do a
10:55 20 lot to get through. We understand that. And we
10:55 21 support it.
10:55 22 Alicia Utermark is from Miami, Florida.
10:55 23 This is a lady who came to this country from
10:55 24 Nicaragua in 1981. She was an attorney in
10:55 25 Nicaragua. She was unable to practice law here
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
36
10:55 1 in the United States, so she went back to
10:55 2 school, she got her teaching certificate. She
10:55 3 went to Miami/Dade Community College and Florida
10:55 4 International University.
10:55 5 She has a degree in elementary education.
10:55 6 She currently has a temporary certificate and
10:55 7 teaches Spanish as the first and second language
10:55 8 to all grades. She also teaches ESOL.
10:55 9 And she teaches curriculum content in the
10:55 10 home language, which is really teaching children
10:55 11 from foreign countries their own language so
10:55 12 then they can learn English as a second
10:55 13 language.
10:55 14 She's completed the necessary requirements
10:55 15 for a professional certificate, except she
10:56 16 cannot pass one portion of the CLAST test. She
10:56 17 has taken this repeatedly. All of her -- all
10:56 18 the comments from her superiors are excellent.
10:56 19 She's an important asset to Dade County
10:56 20 because of the enormous need for ESOL teachers
10:56 21 and CCHL teachers, home language teachers.
10:56 22 She's just one example of real people being
10:56 23 affected by -- by the discussion of high
10:56 24 standards.
10:56 25 Maria Pachon -- Pachon -- I hope I didn't
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
37
10:56 1 say her name incorrectly -- she's an elementary
10:56 2 school teacher who teaches in the curriculum
10:56 3 content in the home language.
10:56 4 She's received all satisfactory
10:56 5 evaluations, completed all the requirements for
10:56 6 a professional certificate, except for one
10:56 7 portion. Of course, it's the math portion,
10:56 8 which is typically the problem -- the portion
10:56 9 they have problems with.
10:56 10 She's taken the test ten times. This
10:56 11 portion ten times. She's gone through extensive
10:57 12 tutoring, counseling. This woman has even taken
10:57 13 hypnosis in order to help overcome her mental
10:57 14 block in taking this math exam.
10:57 15 Ironically, her students and her parents
10:57 16 praise her and her ability to teach mathematics
10:57 17 to her children. So, you can see, there's
10:57 18 obviously a block here.
10:57 19 Again, this is an important teacher to
10:57 20 Dade County. She has topnotch skills, she works
10:57 21 beautifully with her children, she has
10:57 22 difficulty with one component.
10:57 23 Students that need to be taught in the home
24 language, as per the META consent agreement, are
10:57 25 desperate for teachers that can communicate with
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
38
10:57 1 them.
10:57 2 Typically the majority of the teachers that
10:57 3 are having difficulty with this test are those
10:57 4 important people.
10:57 5 I'll give you one more example. This is a
10:57 6 speech pathologist, Jeryle Murphy. She's been
10:57 7 working in the system since 1981. For personal
10:57 8 reasons, she left the system for a few years
10:57 9 because of her children, she let her certificate
10:57 10 lapse, she came back into the system, renewed
10:58 11 all the -- all the certification process that
10:58 12 she went -- she had to go through. She's
10:58 13 completed everything successfully, except for
10:58 14 the math portion of the CLAST test.
10:58 15 She's working under a five year,
10:58 16 nonrenewable professional certificate that will
10:58 17 expire if she does not satisfy this portion.
10:58 18 She's a speech pathologist. She works with
10:58 19 elementary and middle grade students who are
10:58 20 classified as trainable. She does not provide
10:58 21 any mathematics to these students.
10:58 22 This is a special teacher, and someone that
10:58 23 the district needs desperately.
10:58 24 We get calls constantly about people that
10:58 25 have had their lives put on hold because of a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
January 23, 1996
39
10:58 1 portion of the CLAST test. They are prepared to
10:58 2 do whatever it takes.
10:58 3 But asking for them to go back to college
10:58 4 and get a B may be the most difficult thing that
10:59 5 they've ever done. And I'm not suggesting for a
10:59 6 moment that a B is not reasonable.
10:59 7 But there are -- there are special -- there
10:59 8 are special people that have difficulty with
10:59 9 math. And if they go through a variety of
10:59 10 processes that are respectable, that are high
10:59 11 standards, that are legitimate, that have been
10:59 12 researched, then I don't believe that these
10:59 13 people should be disenfranchised from going on
10:59 14 with their profession, and they're respected in
10:59 15 their communities.
10:59 16 We -- we ask you sincerely, and we have
10:59 17 been asking, as you know, for months, that you
10:59 18 support the Ed Standards Commission proposal.
10:59 19 Thank you.
10:59 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
10:59 21 MR. BEDFORD: The next speaker is
10:59 22 Aaron Wallace.
10:59 23 MR. WALLACE: Thank you, Bob.
10:59 24 Good morning, Governor.
10:59 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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January 23, 1996
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10:59 1 MR. WALLACE: Members of the Board.
11:00 2 Before I begin, I guess following Melinda
11:00 3 and also Charlotte, as an old military man
4 career, when a horse gets weary, you know when
11:00 5 to dismount.
11:00 6 We're getting to that point now, so my
11:00 7 comments will be real brief concerning this rule
11:00 8 change.
11:00 9 The fact is, we support the recommendations
11:00 10 of the Education Standards Commission.
11:00 11 Also, if you'll allow me just for a moment
11:00 12 to credential myself so that I can express my
11:00 13 concerns regarding the rule change.
11:00 14 I've been a member of Florida's Education
11:00 15 Practices Commission for seven years. That's
11:00 16 closely related to the Standards Commission.
11:00 17 I've worked hand-in-hand with them implementing
11:00 18 higher standards.
11:00 19 Have also been nominated, and have served
11:00 20 for the past three years as a member of the
11:00 21 Executive Committee of the National Board for
11:00 22 Professional Teaching Standards, where our
11:00 23 philosophy is that what we work on is what
11:00 24 teachers should know and be able to do.
11:00 25 Therefore, I think that I'm very qualified
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January 23, 1996
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11:00 1 to express some concerns regarding this
11:01 2 particular rule change.
11:01 3 Let me further emphasize that the Florida
11:01 4 Teaching Profession, of which I am President,
11:01 5 has been a long advocate, and we emphasize that
11:01 6 of higher standards. We come not before you to
11:01 7 even advocate that particular responsibility.
11:01 8 For we are on the forefront of putting all of
11:01 9 these efforts forward.
11:01 10 The SC has brought -- the Education
11:01 11 Standards Commission, that is, has brought I
11:01 12 think a very worthy -- worthy recommendation to
11:01 13 you.
11:01 14 As a former special ed teacher, and have
11:01 15 participated in peer evaluation, peer review,
11:01 16 I think that on-site validation that they
11:01 17 emphasize will certainly create an aura of
11:01 18 learning environment for all.
11:01 19 The fact is, I think our universities and,
11:01 20 as an alumnus of the Florida State University,
11:01 21 I'm happy to say that I graduated as a magna cum
11:01 22 laude. The fact is that C is an acceptable
11:01 23 grade to receive credit.
11:02 24 So, therefore, I think that by putting that
11:02 25 additional pressure there is of grave concern to
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January 23, 1996
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11:02 1 our organization. And I certainly think that
11:02 2 the alternatives certainly that we have in place
11:02 3 will certainly suffice to give us the quality
11:02 4 education that Florida needs, and certainly
11:02 5 which our organization also supports.
11:02 6 I thank you for your time, and also the
11:02 7 consideration that you'll give this matter.
11:02 8 MR. BEDFORD: Commissioner Brogan, that's
11:02 9 all that's indicated from the audience to me.
11:02 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, with your
11:02 11 indulgence.
11:02 12 The first thing I'd like to do is qualify
11:02 13 by suggesting that this should not be considered
11:02 14 to boil down to whether people are supporting
11:02 15 higher standards or lower standards.
11:02 16 And I really want to go on record as saying
11:02 17 that Aaron and Melinda, in my view by supporting
11:02 18 the Standards Commission's ultimate
11:02 19 recommendation, in my opinion are not supporting
11:02 20 lower standards for teachers versus what I have
11:02 21 recommended, which should be considered higher
11:02 22 standards for teachers.
11:02 23 This all really boils down to something
11:03 24 that we deal with, not only in terms of teacher
11:03 25 certification, but in terms of students.
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11:03 1 You've heard the word, as State Board
11:03 2 members, CLAST used on a regular basis over the
11:03 3 years as a member of the Legislature. One of
11:03 4 the issues that we have started to have to deal
11:03 5 with repeatedly, not only for students, but for
11:03 6 our practitioners of education as it relates to
11:03 7 the CLAST and utilization of that test to
11:03 8 determine competency, are alternatives.
11:03 9 Now, you and I both know that it's easy to
11:03 10 put a rule in place. But you ultimately are
11:03 11 starting -- people are starting to request that
11:03 12 you create alternatives for those who cannot
11:03 13 fulfill the requirements of the original rule.
11:03 14 Once you create that alternative, there is
11:03 15 someone who cannot comply with the alternative,
11:03 16 and, therefore, someone ultimately comes back
11:03 17 and requests that you put in place yet another
11:03 18 alternative.
11:03 19 We're seeing that with the student version
11:03 20 of the CLAST, and we're seeing that now on the
11:03 21 issue of CLAST being used as a determiner of
11:03 22 basic, minimal skills on the part of our
11:03 23 professional educational community.
11:04 24 And you also know that every time you look
11:04 25 at an alternative, you wrestle with the issue
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44
11:04 1 of, is an alternative meant to be different but
11:04 2 equal to that which you created in the first
11:04 3 place. And that's always been the premise under
11:04 4 which I've worked, that an alternative should
11:04 5 never mean easier, that an alternative should
11:04 6 always mean equal to and yet a different version
11:04 7 of.
11:04 8 What you see as part of the recommendation
11:04 9 that we concur with is the use of the Praxis
11:04 10 test, which is another form of the CLAST, if you
11:04 11 will, that is considered to be a different test
11:04 12 but equal to the competency levels that are
11:04 13 tested on the CLAST, which is a minimal skills
11:04 14 test of reading, writing, and mathematics.
11:04 15 When we were required -- and as a matter of
11:04 16 fact, the we goes back before me. As you heard
11:04 17 mention, in 1994, this issue was -- was brought
11:04 18 to the fore, and a rule should have been
11:04 19 promulgated much earlier than this.
11:04 20 But the rule that we put before you today
11:04 21 for your consideration is our definition of an
11:05 22 alternative that is different but equal to. And
11:05 23 let me explain why that is.
11:05 24 And we wrestled with many of the same
11:05 25 issues that the Standards Commission wrestled
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11:05 1 with before coming up with our ultimate
11:05 2 recommendation.
11:05 3 First let's talk about the issue of
11:05 4 temporary certificate. And I think it's
11:05 5 important we talk about the audience related to
11:05 6 this particular alternative.
11:05 7 Remember that you can start to teach in the
11:05 8 state of Florida on a temporary teaching
11:05 9 certificate for a period of two years. By
11:05 10 virtue of the fact that this alternative was not
11:05 11 created, some of the people -- I think that
11:05 12 Melinda mentioned and others -- may have been on
11:05 13 a temporary certificate given special
11:05 14 consideration for even longer periods than that,
11:05 15 because this rule had not been promulgated to
11:05 16 create the required alternative.
11:05 17 We have since gone back and created a
11:05 18 system to deal with, and hopefully, accommodate
11:05 19 the people who have been waiting in the wings
11:05 20 until this alternative rule was promulgated.
11:05 21 So this particular rule would affect those
11:05 22 yet to come, it would not affect those who are
11:06 23 here currently in the state of Florida.
11:06 24 The people who are involved in this -- and
11:06 25 Melinda made mention of this somewhat -- are
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11:06 1 people who have taken the CLAST test. Again,
11:06 2 that's the same test that students are required
11:06 3 to take in many places around the state. It
11:06 4 tests reading, writing, mathematics.
11:06 5 It's the same philosophy used in most
11:06 6 states, which is making certain that
11:06 7 professional educators assess those kinds of
11:06 8 academic skills at that level in reading,
11:06 9 writing, and math that we believe all educators
11:06 10 should have in order to carry out their trade.
11:06 11 The CLAST test was used first -- or at
11:06 12 least earmarked first in 1988. By utilization
11:06 13 of that test, this state also acknowledged that
11:06 14 the competencies therein, which in the
11:06 15 mathematics portion -- and Melinda's correct,
11:06 16 that's traditionally the area that we talk
11:06 17 about -- goes up to, and includes a smattering
11:06 18 of algebra.
11:06 19 That particular test is used -- been used
11:06 20 since that point. The Praxis test is an
11:06 21 alternative, same level of competency is
11:06 22 required.
11:07 23 So the big issue was creating an
11:07 24 alternative that included course work in lieu of
11:07 25 a test that would also demonstrate that same
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11:07 1 level of proficiency.
11:07 2 We looked at two issues: One being the
11:07 3 grade that would be necessary to capture in that
11:07 4 course work in order to show that same level of
11:07 5 sufficiency.
11:07 6 We also looked at the time or the recency
11:07 7 in which those courses were taken. And as part
11:07 8 of our rule, we've also suggested that that
11:07 9 course work should have been taken within the
11:07 10 last five years. We believe that that five-year
11:07 11 period is sufficient to demonstrate that that
11:07 12 level of competency and that grade apportioned
11:07 13 in that particular course still can demonstrate
11:07 14 the proficiency thereof.
11:07 15 Remember that people don't -- some people
11:07 16 would like to see no end to the time in which
11:07 17 that course was taken. In other words, someone
11:07 18 could have taken a math course 15 years ago, and
11:07 19 they'd still like to use that C garnered in that
11:07 20 course 15 years ago.
11:08 21 That person has gone on -- gone on since
11:08 22 then to take our CLAST test, in many cases four
11:08 23 times or more, and still failed, which
11:08 24 immediately I think answers the question of, why
11:08 25 would you want a recency of that course work to
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11:08 1 demonstrate proficiency.
11:08 2 If someone took that course years ago and
11:08 3 passed it with a C, and is unable in four or
11:08 4 more administrations of that particular CLAST
11:08 5 test to pass that portion, I think that speaks
11:08 6 for itself about why you'd want some sort of a
11:08 7 recency. And we've suggested five years for
11:08 8 that particular recency.
11:08 9 The issue of a B. Yes, a C is used
11:08 10 worldwide to demonstrate a passing acceptance in
11:08 11 particular course work. But we still believe
11:08 12 that while a C is a C, there's a deviation there
11:08 13 that means that a person could fall on the low
11:08 14 end of the C or the high end of the C.
11:08 15 And we believe that when we're looking at
11:08 16 professional educators, and we're looking at
11:09 17 demonstrating academia and proficiency therein,
11:09 18 that we thought a B is more appropriate, because
11:09 19 it gives you a higher comfort level; that if a
11:09 20 person achieves a B in a course work, that they
11:09 21 do have the proficiency in the areas that you're
11:09 22 looking at. A C doesn't necessarily guarantee
11:09 23 you that level of proficiency.
11:09 24 On the front page of the Miami Herald the
11:09 25 other day, there was a story about a young lady
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11:09 1 who was dumbfounded at the fact that she'd
11:09 2 gotten a B in algebra from her high school, and
11:09 3 then had to be remediated at the community
11:09 4 college level in mathematics before she could
11:09 5 begin that degree seeking program.
11:09 6 I think it demonstrates the fact -- and
11:09 7 that's casting no dispersions on those who
11:09 8 afford that grade -- it's simply fact that a
11:09 9 letter grade does not necessarily gauge any
11:09 10 particular level of guaranteed proficiency.
11:09 11 And when we're looking at our professional
11:09 12 educators, we want to make certain that everyone
11:09 13 who applies their trade in this state has at
11:09 14 least the same level of proficiency in reading,
11:09 15 writing, and mathematics that this state is soon
11:10 16 going to suggest that all students should be
11:10 17 required to have.
11:10 18 And as we continue to look at algebra as it
11:10 19 relates to a gatekeeper course and an important
11:10 20 course for all youngsters to ultimately have to
11:10 21 go out there and to be self-contributing,
11:10 22 self-sufficient citizens, we want to make
11:10 23 certain that our teachers possess that same
11:10 24 level of skill.
11:10 25 I have heard several different arguments,
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11:10 1 including the fact that a teacher who's teaching
11:10 2 kindergarten, for example, should not have to
11:10 3 demonstrate that level of proficiency. We've
11:10 4 got to remember that teachers are teaching
11:10 5 algebra.
11:10 6 They're not teaching it in the same way
11:10 7 that an algebra teacher is, but everything that
11:10 8 a kindergarten teacher begins to do with those
11:10 9 youngsters in mathematics, no matter how basic,
11:10 10 leads that youngster to the ability to take and
11:10 11 pass that minimum that we're going to soon
11:10 12 hopefully require, and that is algebra.
11:10 13 I've heard people relate that they're not
11:10 14 teaching math, and, therefore, teaching a fine
11:10 15 arts course or some other related activity.
11:10 16 One of our problems in education, in my
11:10 17 opinion, is the fact that we are not reading
11:11 18 across the curriculum, writing across the
11:11 19 curriculum, calculating mathematically across
11:11 20 the curriculum, that we are teaching in too many
11:11 21 places and too many ways fragmented
11:11 22 disciplines.
11:11 23 And that's one of the reasons I think our
11:11 24 youngsters aren't coming out in many ways and
11:11 25 many places with the skill level necessary to
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11:11 1 compete.
11:11 2 I think it's important that our teachers
11:11 3 have the knowledge base behind them in academia,
11:11 4 content that they can then marry and couple with
11:11 5 those profoundly important pedagogical skills to
11:11 6 enable them to take what they know and teach
11:11 7 what they know, regardless of the subject area
11:11 8 that they happen to be engaged in.
11:11 9 So again, I simply want to go on record and
11:11 10 suggest to you that we do support part of the
11:11 11 Standard Commission's recommendations, including
11:11 12 the Praxis, and the use of course work.
11:11 13 The only place that we've come down to
11:11 14 loggerheads is the issue of the grade to be
11:11 15 achieved, and the recency of that course work as
11:11 16 far as it should have been taken to be
11:11 17 considered an alternative to, but equal to what
11:11 18 we expect all other teachers.
11:12 19 Last point. I want you to know how many
11:12 20 you're talking about, because I think that's
11:12 21 important.
11:12 22 There have been some 70,000 people who have
11:12 23 taken the CLAST test since 1990 when it was
11:12 24 first administered as part of this minimal
11:12 25 skills requirement for teaching in the state of
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1 Florida.
11:12 2 And basically we're talking about less than
11:12 3 1 percent of that 70,000, who during that time
11:12 4 period have not been able to take and pass the
11:12 5 CLAST.
11:12 6 So what we're talking about here is a
11:12 7 minimal number of people, important people.
11:12 8 But, nevertheless, this alternative is being
11:12 9 created for that less than 1 percent of the
11:12 10 population who has taken that CLAST test and not
11:12 11 passed that CLAST test on multiple
11:12 12 administrations during that same time period.
11:12 13 So with all due respect to the Standards
11:12 14 Commission, and I mean that sincerely, we
11:12 15 appreciate their recommendations.
11:12 16 As always, I have the difficult task of
11:12 17 taking recommendations that come to me from a
11:12 18 variety of sources, but bringing forward to you
11:12 19 as my fellow colleagues on the State Board of
11:13 20 Education, the recommendation that I think best
11:13 21 reflects the direction that this state is
11:13 22 heading in education. And -- and trying to
11:13 23 create what I believe is a right foundation, not
11:13 24 only for our youngsters, but our professional
11:13 25 education in the community.
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11:13 1 So, Governor, I thank you for indulging me
11:13 2 that explanation, but I think that information
11:13 3 was important. And I will turn it back over to
11:13 4 you for questions.
11:13 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
11:13 6 Questions?
11:13 7 We have a report from the Commission. Are
11:13 8 you proposing an amendment -- an amendment to
11:13 9 that report, or -- I'm just trying to figure
11:13 10 out, where are we now?
11:13 11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir. Good
11:13 12 question.
11:13 13 What you've got today are two things:
11:13 14 We're required to bring you a report from the
11:13 15 Standards Commission --
11:13 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Right.
11:13 17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- which you've
11:13 18 received in writing; and today, orally.
11:13 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: So we're receiving the
11:13 20 report today, is that --
11:13 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: That's the report.
11:13 22 But also today you're receiving our
11:13 23 recommendation on the rule promulgation that's
11:13 24 required by law.
11:14 25 So you -- you've got not only the report,
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11:14 1 but you've gotten and had our recommendation as
11:14 2 to the differences in the report and the rule as
11:14 3 advertised and brought forward to you as the
4 State Board of Education.
11:14 5 One other consideration, and I only say
11:14 6 this -- it's fact. I'm not attempting to salt
7 the well.
11:14 8 One of the things that -- whether it's
11:14 9 today or in the future -- we need to get on with
11:14 10 is remembering that there are parts of this rule
11:14 11 that are not in conflict with Standards
11:14 12 Commission recommendation or our
11:14 13 recommendation.
11:14 14 I give you the Praxis test, for example.
11:14 15 And that is a part of the rule that you have
11:14 16 today in the NTE.
11:14 17 So, Governor, what you've got is the
11:14 18 recommendation of the Standards Commission; our
11:14 19 recommended rule, which has been advertised and
11:14 20 brought before you today for your consideration.
11:14 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: But -- but your rule in
11:14 22 part differs from the Standard Commission
11:14 23 recommendation.
11:14 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes, sir. That's
11:14 25 correct.
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11:14 1 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Let me just ask a
11:14 2 question, Commissioner, if I may.
11:15 3 Does the Standards Commission proposal
11:15 4 raise the standard? I'm talking about the fact
11:15 5 that C or better and -- and the other aspects of
11:15 6 the particular issues upon which we are really
11:15 7 pivoting this issue.
11:15 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, again, without
11:15 9 trying to cast any dispersions on the Standards
11:15 10 Commission, because that's not the case, you're
11:15 11 down to an interpretation point here.
11:15 12 The point that I would make is that
11:15 13 I believe the recommended rule that we've
11:15 14 brought forward better reflects the intent of
11:15 15 the alternative, which is to create something
11:15 16 equal to.
11:15 17 And I believe -- again, I'm giving you my
11:15 18 opinion -- anything less than that in my opinion
11:15 19 would not be commensurate with an alternative
11:15 20 that is different but equal to. If that helps.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: The situation I find
11:15 22 myself in, I've just --
11:15 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. Well, go ahead,
11:15 24 sir. It didn't help, but that's okay.
11:15 25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, no. Fair
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11:15 1 enough. Because I want to answer your question,
11:15 2 and I'll answer it very candidly.
11:15 3 In my opinion, the Commission's -- Standard
11:16 4 Commission's recommendations do not reflect the
11:16 5 same standard as the passage of the CLAST test
11:16 6 or the passage of the alternative Praxis test.
11:16 7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But it creates the
11:16 8 alternative of the C?
11:16 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: In my opinion, it
11:16 10 creates the alternative of the C, yes, sir,
11:16 11 factually. And in my opinion, the C is less, in
11:16 12 my opinion, than a standard which would call for
11:16 13 a B within the last five years.
11:16 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I understand
11:16 15 several things. One is that you said there are
11:16 16 a lot of things in your rule that are not --
11:16 17 you know, that are not in any controversy at
11:16 18 all. I have no reason -- I don't want to delay
11:16 19 that if there's anything we can.
11:16 20 But given the fact that the Commission has
11:16 21 come -- reported today, after doing work, and
11:16 22 that you have some changes to that, I would like
11:16 23 some time to just be able to reflect on those to
11:16 24 make up my own mind. I don't think I can make a
11:17 25 very valid judgment today.
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11:17 1 Is there a way of accepting your rule that
11:17 2 all -- if you need that, to do that now, and
11:17 3 take out these parts, and defer those? Or -- or
11:17 4 not? I'm just asking.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I honestly don't have
11:17 6 an ans-- I'd have to divert to -- defer to legal
11:17 7 on that, Governor. I don't know how -- how
11:17 8 substantial --
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
11:17 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- amendments you
11:17 11 could make. I understand what your question is.
11:17 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, of course, you said
11:17 13 there are a lot of things in the rule that don't
11:17 14 reflect. I don't want to hold that up. I feel
11:17 15 like I need some time to be able to make some
11:17 16 judgment.
11:17 17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand. I just
11:17 18 don't have an answer to the question. If we
11:17 19 could take part of the rule that's been
11:17 20 advertised, somebody's --
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Have we got --
11:17 22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- going to have --
11:17 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- any legal minds out
11:17 24 there --
11:17 25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Somebody's going to
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11:17 1 have to help me with that.
11:17 2 MR. BEDFORD: We're going to legal right
11:18 3 now.
11:18 4 This is Mike Olnick.
11:18 5 MR. OLNICK: Governor, members of the
11:18 6 Cabinet, my name is Mike Olnick, I'm general
11:18 7 counsel, Department of Education.
11:18 8 My understanding is that what the
11:18 9 Commissioner is recommending as a rule is for
11:18 10 adoption today.
11:18 11 And I guess -- I'm a little at a loss as to
11:18 12 your question, Governor. I --
11:18 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, the Commissioner
11:18 14 said there are an awful lot of things in this
11:18 15 rule that aren't in any controversy. And sort
11:18 16 of necessary changes.
11:18 17 What I was trying to see, is there a way we
11:18 18 can adopt all of those, the -- the issue that's
11:18 19 between the Commission report and what the
11:18 20 Commissioner is now recommending is something
11:18 21 that I don't totally understand. And I want
11:19 22 time to reflect on it. So I'm trying to see if
11:19 23 I can --
11:19 24 MR. OLNICK: The rule before you is what's
11:19 25 been brought by the Commissioner of Education I
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11:19 1 guess is the answer.
11:19 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, I think the
11:19 3 question is -- we really boil down to two
11:19 4 issues. One is the grade, B versus a C. And
11:19 5 the other is the recency of the college credit,
11:19 6 five years versus no limitation.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:19 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I believe --
11:19 9 And, Charlotte, I'm going to defer to you
11:19 10 on this.
11:19 11 -- that everything else that is included in
11:19 12 our proposed rule is in harmony with the
11:19 13 recommendations of the Standards Commission?
11:19 14 It's -- basically boils down to those two
11:19 15 issues?
11:19 16 Which would -- which would -- if we follow
11:19 17 the line of the Governor's question, allow us
11:19 18 the ability to immediately begin to use the
11:19 19 Praxis as an alternative, the NTE as an
11:19 20 alternative, and only hold up for further
11:20 21 consideration the use of college course work as
11:20 22 an alternative.
11:20 23 MS. MINNICK-BOROTO: There is one more
11:20 24 difference. The differences in the
11:20 25 specification of the math courses that are
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11:20 1 required for someone to take should this not be
11:20 2 on their transcript.
11:20 3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Fair enough. But
11:20 4 that still falls under the -- under the category
11:20 5 of college course work.
11:20 6 MS. MINNICK-BOROTO: Yes, sir.
11:20 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: In other words, based
11:20 8 on what the Governor is I think suggesting, if
11:20 9 it's legally possible, pass today the Praxis,
11:20 10 which is the alternative test; pass today the
11:20 11 NTE; and cull out of the proposed rule for
11:20 12 today's discussion anything relative to college
11:20 13 course work as an alternative.
11:20 14 Because that's grade, that's recency, and
11:20 15 that's level of difficulty in college
11:20 16 course work.
11:20 17 MS. MINNICK-BOROTO: That is correct.
11:20 18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Let me ask you
11:20 19 this: If we deferred the whole package to
11:20 20 February 13th, would the -- would that do any
11:20 21 great damage? Is there a timing problem with
11:21 22 that?
11:21 23 MR. BEDFORD: Timing-wise, delay is delay.
11:21 24 And we are -- we've already delayed it, as you
11:21 25 can tell by looking at the time lines.
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11:21 1 I think we have just met with some of our
11:21 2 people, and if you, in fact, are going to
11:21 3 approve bits and pieces of it, we would at least
11:21 4 want to have time to look and see -- the
11:21 5 sentences are all interrelated --
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Right.
11:21 7 MR. BEDFORD: -- if you look at the law.
11:21 8 And I think that we may have more of a problem
11:21 9 trying to strike and delete at a meeting than we
11:21 10 would have if we came back.
11:21 11 Tom --
11:21 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, let's do it
11:21 13 this way --
11:21 14 MR. BEDFORD: -- we would need time I think
11:21 15 to --
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll --
11:21 17 MR. BEDFORD: -- strike and delete.
11:21 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- you know, I'll
11:21 19 defer to the protocol if, in fact, you'd like to
11:21 20 remove this and have us bring it back.
11:21 21 But I simply want you to consider as you
11:21 22 study this with your staff members the things
11:21 23 that we've discussed today.
11:21 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, that's what I'm
11:21 25 looking for time, to be certain -- to be able to
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11:21 1 consider that, and to understand how this
11:21 2 differs, and what the -- the Commission members
11:21 3 think about it.
11:21 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yeah. And it should
11:21 5 be easier based on the fact that you now know
11:22 6 what our recommendations are, you know what the
11:22 7 Standards Commission recommendations have been.
11:22 8 And I think you can narrow your discussion to
11:22 9 those particular points --
11:22 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah. I think by May, I
11:22 11 ought to be able to come up with an answer.
11:22 12 TREASURER NELSON: That's good.
11:22 13 And in the meantime, I suggest everybody
11:22 14 takes the math portion of the CLAST test.
11:22 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Right.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
18 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- this -- this issue
19 I've had a great deal of difficulty with. And
20 I guess, for one, being married to an educator
21 and having children go through school relatively
22 recently, I would also like -- if we're going to
23 be deferring this to whatever date -- I'd like
24 somebody to tell me -- I guess my problem is is
25 that I do not believe that the passing of a
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1 CLAST test or getting a B in algebra, or finite
2 math, or whatever we're calling it now, makes a
3 good teacher.
4 I have been there; done that; and, frankly,
5 I would like to know the possibility of maybe an
6 alternative being something like a group of
7 peers at a school evaluating teachers'
8 performance, their actual performance, where
9 they either can teach or they can't. And having
10 an immediate decision made by that peer group.
11 Now, I -- I realize that that -- that's
12 like real world stuff, and it'd be a lot easier
13 to just say, well, you've got to get 25 out of
14 32 on a particular test. I don't care if it's
15 Praxis, CLAST, or whatever.
16 And -- but -- as a parent, I am more
17 concerned about whether that teacher that's in
18 the classroom can actually teach a child. And
19 these teachers that are not passing the CLAST in
20 the area of math aren't teaching math. We know
21 that, because in order to teach math, you have
22 to be proficient in your subject area.
23 And yet I see where maybe some of our
24 greatest weaknesses of children coming out of
25 the system are the kids that are taking math and
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1 not doing well.
2 So I mean, I have -- I think there's a
3 little bit of a -- of a schism that's going on
4 here. And maybe those math teachers need to be
5 evaluated as to whether or not they can actually
6 communicate subject matter to their students,
7 which has absolutely zero to do with whether or
8 not they can pass a CLAST.
9 And I realize, this is totally outside the
10 parameters of the Commission or -- or your
11 recommendation. But I'd just like to know as a
12 real world experience whether this is even a
13 possibility.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, if I can
15 respond.
16 Yes, it's not only a possibility, it's in
17 practice each and every day. Not only do new
18 educators, whether they're new to the state or
19 new to education in general, have to pass a
20 minimal skills test to make certain that they
21 can read and write and calculate mathematically,
22 but they also do have to go through a
23 professional orientation program that includes
24 close scrutiny and careful scrutiny, and their
25 ability to teach, because teaching, of course,
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1 is twofold: One is content, and one is the
2 ability to teach what you know.
3 And so that is already engaged in.
4 Let me remind you that this is similar
5 to -- in scope to having to pass the bar when
6 you come to the state of Florida from another
7 state, or have to pass state boards when you
8 come from another state and want to practice
9 medicine.
10 What we're trying to determine is as much
11 validity as we give your -- your legal degree
12 from another state or your medical degree from
13 another state, this state still wants to make
14 certain that you have basic proficiencies in
15 order to go out there and teach anything.
16 We do a background check to make sure that
17 you're free from criminal behavior; and we do a
18 minimal skills check, as do most states in the
19 country today, to make certain that before this
20 state confers a valid Florida teaching
21 certificate upon you, that you can read and
22 write and calculate mathematically.
23 Where I -- where I disagree is the fact
24 that, you know -- I guess what I'm saying is:
25 Whether a teacher is teaching Algebra I or
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1 geometry, or whether they are teaching second
2 grade students, what this test is meant to do is
3 make certain that they have what we consider to
4 be an academic proficiency level that is at
5 least parallel to that of what we're expecting
6 of our high school students at the algebra
7 level. Not above that, simply the algebra
8 level.
9 Because you're right, and one of our
10 biggest problems, as I mentioned before, is not
11 only are our youngsters not coming out with
12 mathematical skills, and the main question, the
13 way they should; they're not seeing mathematics
14 being taught across the curriculum. In order to
15 teach anything across the curriculum, that
16 person should possess that academic knowledge.
17 So we are already using pedagogy as a
18 method to determine if people can teach what
19 they know. And, again, 70,000 people have taken
20 this test and passed it.
21 We're talking about 700 since 1990 who have
22 taken it and failed it over and over and over
23 again. The alternative simply allows them to go
24 back and take the college course -- two college
25 courses and, hey, how about learning what it is
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1 that you're being taught during that college
2 course, not only to have the proficiency level,
3 but to learn what it is you say you don't know
4 when you take the test, and then be able to use
5 it out there in that real world of education.
6 So I don't consider it to be standards that
7 are out of line. I don't consider it to be an
8 expectation that in this, or law, or medicine we
9 don't already have in place in almost every
10 state in the country.
11 And it's a minimal expectation that if we
12 give someone a teaching certificate, they should
13 be able to read and write and calculate
14 mathematically at an appropriate level.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Governor, if I
16 could, just, you know -- following what the
17 Secretary Mortham was saying, which I concur
18 with -- and that is, maybe it's a combination of
19 what we should be doing.
20 Yes, you give them the -- the test. But
21 what we're here today, and there's a lot of
22 great teachers that for some reason, they have
23 trouble with one part of the test. So we're
24 looking for an alternative to that.
25 And I think what the Secretary suggested
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1 may be a better solution than that is, you have
2 some kind of review panel that looks at the
3 overall performance of the teacher and -- and
4 the test scores as well. And then can grant a
5 waiver. I don't know if you'd have to have
6 statutory change for that.
7 But I'm aware of teachers that have trouble
8 with the test that are great teachers. And
9 I think there are probably some here today that
10 fall in that category.
11 And maybe a more common sense way to do
12 this, and say, okay, you've got to go back now
13 and get a B, and -- I don't know that that
14 particularly is the way that you should make the
15 judgment.
16 And I think it's been -- it's at least been
17 my experience, I remember back in college, that
18 professors that had all the Ph.D.s stacked up
19 were usually the worst teachers, had no interest
20 actually in teaching. And you could see that
21 when you went to the course.
22 And so, you know, it's not -- you know,
23 it's not the Ph.D.s you have, it's not
24 necessarily if you can ace an test or not, it's
25 really if you care about those kids, then you
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1 can teach. And given a certain level of
2 proficiency.
3 And maybe we need to kind of balance the
4 testing with more of a general evaluation, and
5 allow that to -- to substitute for maybe a part
6 of the test.
7 That's --
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, again, and then
9 I'll stop. Because I know we've got a long
10 agenda left ahead of us.
11 (A), I agree that there are other ways to
12 demonstrate teaching competency, no doubt about
13 it. And we already employ many of those.
14 (B), I think it's important that anyone who
15 applies their trade as a professional educator
16 in this state have a minimal competency in
17 reading, writing, and math, at the very least.
18 And I think that's what we're trying to
19 determine.
20 And (C), even though I could argue all day
21 against the incredible number of alternatives
22 that we're putting into high standards, what all
23 this really boils down to is we're all on the
24 same page. The only thing that we are talking
25 about here are the three issues that you've
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1 heard discussed.
2 And it's not whether the alternative is
3 there, the law already says the alternative has
4 to be placed there.
5 The only difference in the rule that's
6 being discussed is, what is the grade necessary
7 to show that level of proficiency, and what
8 time line should that proficiency have been
9 demonstrated by using course work, and what are
10 the courses that would be deemed acceptable in
11 order to use to validate that fact.
12 So we're all agreeing with all the same
13 things. And what your consideration I think is
14 all about for the next time this is on the
15 agenda is those two items, and at what level the
16 State Board feels those items should be set.
17 MR. BEDFORD: I wonder if I might just make
18 a -- kind of a comment here.
19 I listened to Secretary Mortham's
20 explanation. I think it's much more global than
21 what the issue that's on the table right now.
22 I just want to focus -- before we
23 completely give up and delay it, focus on the
24 issue -- the issue is just the alternative to
25 CLAST for those people that fail it four times.
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1 The issue isn't the overall how we're
2 evaluating teachers, because I think we all
3 would agree with you, that there needs to be
4 some look at how we're testing, how we're
5 training.
6 But the Legislature chose the CLAST. And
7 then the Legislature chose to tell us to have an
8 alternative to that CLAST. And that's really
9 what this -- what this amendment is about, it's
10 just that narrow scope.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But how -- how much
12 flexibility do we have in what that alternative
13 is?
14 MR. BEDFORD: Well, I'm not sure of that.
15 So I'm not --
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That's where
17 I think several of us -- the philosophy. I
18 think you could apply it to what the alternative
19 is. I don't know.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. We ought to
21 be at a point to make some decision as to punt.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, again,
23 Governor, I think I've heard -- I can read them
24 pretty well, too.
25 I think what I've heard up here is that --
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1 and I'll wait for the -- I guess it requires a
2 motion.
3 But if you'd like me to bring this back
4 again, I will submit to you that it will be
5 glaringly similar to what's before you today.
6 But at least if you -- if you would like to have
7 more time to consider what's before you today, I
8 will defer to the protocol.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion to
10 defer?
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: So move.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Second?
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, it is
15 deferred.
16 MR. BEDFORD: Item 1, minutes of the
17 meeting held November 7, November 29th, and
18 December 12th.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 (Comptroller Milligan exited the room.)
24 MR. BEDFORD: Item number 2, amendment
25 number 6 for the Florida Learning Support
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1 System, school year 2000, with Encyclopaedia
2 Britannica Educational Corporation for the Data
3 Flow Controller.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 MR. BEDFORD: Item 3, Lake-Sumter Community
9 College request to establish a special purpose
10 center in south Lake County, Clermont.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I'd move
12 this item, and look for a second. And also say
13 that there are representatives from Lake-Sumter
14 Community College who I think are with us today
15 who may just like a quick word with you.
16 MR. BEDFORD: President Bob --
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I move the item,
18 Governor.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
21 seconded.
22 Now for a quick word before we approve this
23 item.
24 MR. BEDFORD: President Bob Westrick.
25 MR. WESTRICK: Thank you, Governor, and
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1 members of the Board. We're delighted that
2 you're considering our request.
3 The facility that we hope to develop is
4 located in one of the fastest growing areas of
5 the state. We have been given a 40-acre site in
6 that area, in the Clermont area.
7 The community is very much excited about us
8 coming to that area and providing educational
9 services there, and we appreciate your
10 consideration of this.
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, motion
12 passes.
13 Thank you, sir.
14 MR. BEDFORD: Item number 5, we're
15 requesting a motion to withdraw.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, motion to --
20 MR. BEDFORD: Item 6, amendment to 6A,
21 dash, 14.030, Construction and Award of
22 Community Colleges.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
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1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. BEDFORD: Item number 7, reappointment
3 to Florida Board of Regents, Mr. Welcom Watson.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
9 concluded.)
10 *
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 MR. BEDFORD: State Board of Career Ed
2 I believe is the next --
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Career
4 Education.
5 MR. BEDFORD: State Board of Career Ed.
6 Item 1, minutes of the meeting held
7 December 12th.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MR. BEDFORD: Item 2, appointment to the
13 Florida Council on Vocational Education,
14 Carl F. Miller, Jr.; Kaizer Talib.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
11:22 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
21 (The State Board of Career Education Agenda
22 was concluded.)
23 *
24
25
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1 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
2 GOVERNOR CHILES:
3 Administration Commission.
4 DR. BRADLEY: Recommend approval of the
5 minutes of the meeting held December 12th, 1995.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:22 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
9 seconded.
10 Without objection, approved.
11 DR. BRADLEY: Second item is recommend
12 approval to initiate a request for proposals to
13 competitively offer the administration of
14 U.S. Savings Bonds and approval of recommended
15 bid specifications.
16 This is the initial trial run of the State
17 Council on Competitive Government that we
18 discussed with you awhile back. We have a
19 couple people here if you want to discuss it, or
11:22 20 we could just --
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second it.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, request motion
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1 to withdraw.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- second.
6 Without objection, motion to withdraw is
7 granted.
8 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
9 concluded.)
10 *
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 DR. BRADLEY: The Florida Land and Water
2 Adjud--
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Florida Land and Water
4 Adjudicatory Commission.
5 DR. BRADLEY: Request approval of the
6 minutes of October 24th, 1995, Commission
7 meeting.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, approved.
12 DR. BRADLEY: Request acceptance of the
13 report on the status of the Save Our Everglades
14 program.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move it.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, that's approved.
19 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory
20 Commission Agenda was concluded.)
21 *
22
23
24
25
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Board of Trustees.
2 MS. WETHERELL: Item 1, minutes.
3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
7 Without objection, minutes are approved.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 2 is a
9 purchase agreement and release of funds.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, approved.
14 MS. WETHERELL: Item 3 is a rule repeal.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Item 4 is a rule repeal and
20 rule amendment.
21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Item 5, rule repeals.
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1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
3 Second.
4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
5 Without objection, it's approved.
6 MS. WETHERELL: Item 6, rule repeal.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 7 are to
12 ratify rule repeals.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 8, we're
18 recommending withdrawal.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Motion to defer is granted without
23 objection.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute item 9 is a
25 quitclaim deed.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MS. WETHERELL: Item 10 is a purchase
6 agreement for the Department of Agriculture.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Item 11 is a purchase
12 agreement, Florida Department of Agriculture.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Item 12 is a purchase
18 agreement for Department of Agriculture.
19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
22 Without objection, it's approved.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Item 13 is a purchase
24 agreement for the Game and Fish Commission.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, it's approved.
4 MS. WETHERELL: Item 14 is an option
5 agreement for the First Magnitude Springs CARL
6 Project.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
12 MS. WETHERELL: Item 15 is an option
13 agreement for the First Magnitude Springs CARL
14 Project.
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 (Commissioner Crawford exited the room.)
21 MS. WETHERELL: Item 16 is an option
22 agreement for the Florida Springs Coastal
23 Greenway Project.
24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MS. WETHERELL: Item 17 is a purchase
4 agreement for Florida Springs Coastal Greenway
5 Project.
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MS. WETHERELL: Item 18 is an option
11 agreement for the Big Talbot Recreation and
12 Parks Addition.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
16 Without objection, it's approved.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Item 19 are four purchase
18 agreements for the Florida Springs Coastal
19 Greenway Project.
20 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Item 20 is a purchase
25 agreement for Rookery Bay CARL Project.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll move it.
2 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
4 Without objection, it's approved.
5 MS. WETHERELL: Item 21 is an option
6 agreement for the Green Swamp CARL Project and a
7 waiver of survey.
8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 MS. WETHERELL: Item 22, an option
13 agreement for --
14 (Commissioner Crawford entered the room.)
15 MS. WETHERELL: -- Save Our Everglades
16 project and a waiver of survey.
17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
21 Without objection, it's approved.
22 MS. WETHERELL: Substitute Item 23 is an
23 amendment to the Topsail Hill consent final
24 judgment to acquire Deer Lake from
25 St. Joe Paper.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor --
2 I'm sorry.
3 I want a motion and a second for
4 discussion.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a motion?
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, we've
10 reviewed this one pretty carefully. And if I
11 can sum it up, this one appears to fall under
12 the category of sometimes you have to wonder if
13 in the negotiation you've got the best possible
14 price, or if what you're trying to buy is worth
15 that particular price.
16 I know the extensive negotiations that have
17 gone on on this particular issue, and I've
18 recognized that, in my opinion, staff has done
19 the very best they can to get -- to get the
20 seller to a reasonable offer.
21 But as -- as much as I think the State
22 would like to have that particular parcel of
23 property, I'm wrestling with the issue of
24 whether these are really good negotiations, or
25 whether we've really come back with an amount of
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1 money that -- that is just what the seller is
2 willing to -- to come up with. And there's a
3 little different subtle distinction there.
4 I'd like to ask the Secretary if in her
5 opinion this particular piece of property -- and
6 I know you've got it on the agenda, so obviously
7 you feel strongly about it.
8 But I'm concerned about the negotiations,
9 or the result of those negotiations. I'm not
10 only concerned about whether we should reenter
11 in the negotiations; but if, in fact, through
12 negotiations found that this is it, that this is
13 the best price, whether sometimes it just isn't
14 better not to buy the property, rather than buy
15 it at what the seller is willing to sell it for.
16 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
17 Well, the -- the negotiation was handled by
18 the Attorney General's Office, by Bob Scanlan;
19 and our staff obviously, with the Division of
20 State Lands, reviewed that, and came to the
21 conclusion that it -- it was the best settlement
22 that could be reached, and that, in fact, it
23 was, considering all things, an appropriate
24 acquisition for the State.
25 This is property that has been considered
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1 for years by the -- the CARL committee, has been
2 ranked high. It is unquestionably important
3 natural resource property. The issue here is,
4 I think in your mind, what is being paid for
5 it.
6 The -- the appraisals that have been
7 acquired came within 300,000 of the negotiated
8 price. And if you consider the fact that if you
9 approve this amendment to -- to this judgment,
10 we will be delaying the closing by two months,
11 and we will, in fact, you know, earn another
12 $700,000 on our money by keeping our money in
13 the bank, so to speak.
14 And so, in fact, the -- the State will come
15 out a little bit better than the -- than the
16 negotiated purchase versus the highest appraisal
17 that came in. You know, given the fact that
18 you're delaying by 60 days the closing if you
19 approve this.
20 So from the standpoint of price, we think
21 it makes sense to pursue it. St. Joe asked us
22 to include in this mediation any further
23 property that we wished to have from this part
24 of the state. This is Court ordered mediation.
25 They agreed to try to settle if we would,
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1 indeed, point out, what else is it that the
2 State wants to own in this area, and negotiated
3 at that point in time. And that's what
4 happened.
5 I think the Attorney General's Office did a
6 good job of negotiating that. I think perhaps
7 the Attorney General would want to answer your
8 question.
9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor --
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: --
12 Commissioner, my -- my reaction last Friday was
13 the same as yours, we negotiate with people so
14 long, we've had it with them, let's just walk on
15 the issue. And that was really where I was at
16 on Friday.
17 Then talking to staff and others, they
18 really do want the piece of property. And I
19 can -- I can go either way on it.
20 But as the Secretary stated, as opposed to
21 closing on February 2nd, we can delay the
22 closing on the entire eighty some odd million
23 dollars for 60 days. We'd end up making on that
24 money anywhere between that and 1.2 million
25 perhaps on -- on that amount of money on
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1 floating it.
2 So maybe we are getting a better deal than
3 it shows here. But when you negotiate with
4 somebody so long, and you sit across the table
5 and say, we're not going to go any lower.
6 And you say, wait a minute, you know,
7 you're good corporate citizens -- we think;
8 you -- this is great land, as everybody knows,
9 because they keep saying it's the prettiest
10 beach in the world, and I guess this is the only
11 chance we'll get to preserve it.
12 I think it's increasing about 2 percent per
13 month now of that particular -- the value of
14 land in that area, that a lot of resales such as
15 buy Topsail, forget about Deer Lake. But when
16 you add it all up, we're probably better off
17 financially by buying it, collecting our extra
18 money interest for the next few months, and
19 going on with it.
20 But it's got -- it's been a long ordeal on
21 this. This property originally was involved --
22 not this one, but the Topsail was involved in a
23 daisy chain of two banks going out of business
24 because of it, indictments, U.S. Attorney's
25 Office, and everything else.
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1 So we've been involved with this property
2 now probably, what, three, four, five years.
3 And now I'm saying, let's just buy it. But --
4 we cannot cut a better deal. We were there
5 until --
6 What time last night or at least -- Bob,
7 what time were you there until Friday, and --
8 negotiating this thing?
9 MR. SCANLAN: Well, we mediated a total of
10 about 20 hours with a mediator, not counting
11 hours and hours after that. Friday night we
12 were working till -- 6:00 o'clock Friday night
13 trying to even cut a better deal. That's the
14 best we can cut.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And I told
16 Bob on Friday night, just walk away. And -- but
17 reconsidering on Sunday morning, I said, let's
18 just try again. We can't -- we just can't go
19 any further. They will not budge.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: You know, I think it's
21 clear that St. Joe hopes we'll walk.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think
23 they -- they would like us to walk.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: So it's not a question of
25 them saying, you know, we're going to inch you
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1 up a little bit more. They don't want to sell
2 this property to start with.
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Not to us,
4 to somebody else.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Not to us. Yeah.
6 I mean, they want to sell it later.
7 And in looking at the difference, yes, it's
8 higher than the second appraisal. But in the
9 scope of things, looking at this property and
10 look what it's worth to the State ten, twenty,
11 thirty, a hundred years from now.
12 And the fact that we can draw it out. If
13 they want to play this way, we can get back our
14 money, or most of it, in the interest thing. It
15 just seems like to me this is one that we spite
16 ourself if we walk away from it.
17 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, I appreciate
18 that, Governor. And I -- respect to the
19 Attorney General, appreciate it.
20 I wanted to hear a little more about the
21 negotiations and why we got to where we are. It
22 helps me to know that -- that we by banking it
23 now can actually come out of the deal better
24 than it even appears.
25 And also have the respect for the General
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1 to know that if he suggests that's the best deal
2 we can get, then that's probably the best deal
3 we can get.
4 And at the risk of pushing it back and
5 taking on today's approach, which is everything
6 looks better in the light of May --
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think it
8 may be worth about another 18 percent more than
9 it is today.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I have a question.
13 Secretary, could you tell me what number on
14 the CARL list the Deer Lake project is?
15 MS. WETHERELL: It's part -- been part most
16 recently of the Point Washington project. In
17 the past, it's been part of I believe the --
18 part of the Topsail at one point in time.
19 Can anybody on staff tell me what number --
20 MR. GREEN: Pete's looking.
21 MS. WETHERELL: Pete's looking.
22 Pete's looking.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: What's that?
24 MS. WETHERELL: Mr. Mallison is looking
25 right now to see where it is on the list.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: It's an incredible
2 piece of property, there's no doubt about that.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Have we heard from
4 Walton County as to -- from the
5 County Commission specific to the purchase of
6 Deer Lake, not -- not Topsail now, but Deer Lake
7 itself.
8 MS. WETHERELL: Well, Walton County was at
9 the -- at the celebration, if you would, of the
10 Topsail acquisition with me, and they had some
11 local elected officials.
12 And they were quoted on TV as -- you know,
13 as talking about what a wonderful piece of
14 property this was for the citizens. So that
15 was, you know, at an -- an individual saying
16 that.
17 As a County Commission, I don't know if
18 they've taken a position and --
19 Yeah. And Mr. Scanlan says they have
20 signed off on this agreement, the
21 County Commission has.
22 MR. SCANLAN: The County Attorney has
23 signed -- been involved -- the County Planning
24 Administrator and the County Attorney were
25 involved in the mediation over the last
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1 six months, and they did sign the Topsail
2 agreement and this agreement. There's a slot
3 for the County to sign both.
4 They did oppose the condemnation of
5 Topsail, and they actually testified at the
6 hearing in front of the judge opposing it.
7 So when they signed the agreement, they
8 said, we're signing this agreement, but we still
9 oppose the condemnation of Topsail. But they
10 signed it with that reservation. So they have
11 signed off on this.
12 The advantage to the County is right now
13 there's 500 acres at Deer Lake that are on the
14 Topsail list -- on the CARL list. That will be
15 taken off once we buy this piece. And St. Joe
16 can -- can develop it, or whoever buys it can
17 develop it.
18 And that's part of what we'd be going
19 through is try to -- to -- to address some of
20 the concerns of the County. The South Walton
21 Trust recommended that we buy this tract -- this
22 tract of land.
23 But we've tried to get to a point where
24 this is what we're going to buy, let the rest of
25 it go on the market, the County can do what they
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1 want to get it developed. And it's to
2 everybody's benefit to try to get it resolved.
3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So you're indicating
4 that the County is for both purchases.
5 MR. SCANLAN: The County has signed the
6 consent judgment for both purchases. And
7 they've signed the stipulation which says -- the
8 stipulation says that we can add Deer Lake to
9 this acquisition. The County Attorney has
10 actually signed that agreement.
11 Now, to tell you Walton County favors us
12 buying all this land, I'm not going to tell you
13 that. But what we've done is reach a compromise
14 over the last six months to the point where
15 we're at.
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Well, I guess I don't
17 understand. What is the compromise for them?
18 MR. SCANLAN: Well, we had a hearing to
19 determine whether we could condemn Topsail. The
20 County took the position that we were taking a
21 very valuable piece of property off their tax
22 rolls, and opposed it in front of the judge.
23 But part of what we tried to do through
24 this negotiation is try to work out some of the
25 lawsuits involving land use in Walton County.
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1 That's been on the table.
2 The County's been involved in trying to
3 resolve some of the disputes over what type of
4 land uses are proper on some of these
5 properties.
6 And we've reached an agreement that -- that
7 stops some of the lawsuits between DCA. The
8 final order of this Cabinet's been reversed on
9 Walton County's comp plan.
10 We've reached an agreement to some basic
11 uses that these properties can be used for, that
12 if they're developed, there's certain hoops that
13 have to be jumped through in their development
14 process to help protect the environment and
15 whatever.
16 So it's an overall basic compromise with
17 the County that we'll take these properties off
18 the CARL list that we don't buy now, they're no
19 longer under that veil of threat that the State
20 will buy them. The County can upgrade the
21 densities if they want to, you know, assuming
22 they get through the comp planning process.
23 We've reached basic agreements on proper
24 uses for these coastal properties to help
25 protect the -- the lakes and the wetlands and
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1 whatever, and reached a price.
2 And basically what we're buying here is
3 Deer Lake, which helps tie the Point Washington
4 land north of it down to the beach to give us a
5 corridor in that area to the beach, which may
6 advance its recreational value.
7 It helps protect the lake. We've -- the
8 biologists tell me that the dune lakes that are
9 within developments are starting to degrade from
10 the development around.
11 And the basic thing we're doing here is
12 preserving a lake and an ecosystem around that
13 lake, as well as getting about a half a mile of
14 beautiful beach.
15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. So when you --
16 when you talk about them signing the consent, is
17 that the same thing as -- as what I'm looking at
18 here, which is -- which says: The foregoing
19 consent is signed by Walton County with a
20 specific understanding that it continues to
21 object to State acquisition of Topsail or any
22 more land than Walton County from its tax base.
23 MR. SCANLAN: Right.
24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Is that the same thing
25 you're talking about?
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1 MR. SCANLAN: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
2 In the mediations, the first two sessions
3 we had, the County was there for those sessions,
4 and the County Attorney -- actually the Topsail
5 deal itself got to the point where the County --
6 the County had -- could have killed it probably
7 at that point. And they were the last ones to
8 sign the agreement before the judge did.
9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. Did we find out
10 what number this --
11 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, ma'am.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- is on the list?
13 MS. WETHERELL: The project is actually on
14 two different lists. It's on the -- the CARL
15 list in the substantially complete category.
16 It's number 6. This is the -- the Department's
17 P2000 list, the CARL list.
18 It is on the Division of Recreation and
19 Parks' P2000 list as number 1. So it's number 1
20 and number 6 on two different lists for the
21 State.
22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: The Deer Lake
23 specifically.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Yes. Yes.
25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: The -- on the CARL list
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1 of -- on number 6, is it -- is it spelled out as
2 Deer Lake?
3 MS. WETHERELL: It's Point Washington. And
4 Point -- every project has many different --
5 usually has many different parcels and different
6 phases in which it will be acquired.
7 So Deer Lake is a part of the
8 Point Washington project. And it's ranked as a
9 whole, not as a -- as the various parcels.
10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, if I -- if I
11 can --
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, ma'am.
13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I -- everybody that
14 has seen this property thinks it's the most
15 wonderful thing, and that our grandchildren down
16 the road will thank us for spending whatever it
17 takes to get it.
18 I guess my concern is is that I don't like
19 the idea of spending 11 million dollars so that
20 we can make $724,000 in interest, and that's
21 obviously not the only reason that we're doing
22 it.
23 At the same time, I -- I'm concerned about
24 us going over the statutory max when, in fact,
25 it would seem to me that when the State is
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1 purchasing land for 84 million dollars from
2 St. Joe, that they almost should be willing to
3 be good corporate citizens and help us out with
4 this property as well, and certainly --
5 certainly taken below the statutory max.
6 And those -- those are my -- I mean, that
7 gives me heartburn that they're doing that to
8 us.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: I think it gives all of
10 us heartburn.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a lot
12 of heartburn when -- Madam Secretary. I tell
13 you, I mean, I've gone through this and through
14 this over the past few years.
15 The Nature Conservancy that's here today,
16 they've been fighting this thing, battle --
17 we've been fighting with Walton County. They
18 didn't want us to buy 1 acre of land when we
19 first started about five years ago up here. And
20 I think now they're about as happy as -- as
21 really I guess they can be with everything being
22 finalized.
23 But my concerns are really no different. I
24 actually stated -- I mean, we're getting X
25 number of tens of millions of dollars worth of
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1 property, why not just lower it by 300,000.
2 And they just do business a different way
3 than we do. They spent a lot of money for this
4 land, it cost them a dollar an acre, you know.
5 So they literally -- go back on the table, and
6 say, fine, we don't care.
7 There are some -- there are buyers out
8 there that's going to buy this land. It's the
9 hottest land right now many people tell us
10 perhaps in the country with its coastal land.
11 It's going up 2 percent per month. And -- and
12 maybe the Nature Conservancy will, you know,
13 bite its words right now. But --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: As we speak, it's gone
15 up.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It is
17 unbelievable what is actually happening on this
18 land.
19 And I guess if any land was going to be a
20 part of a bank fraud and daisy chain, they
21 probably picked a pretty good one, by luck I
22 guess more than anything else.
23 But really I think the best thing is to
24 go ahead and -- and buy it. I real--
25 Governor, if we don't buy it, we're going
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1 to cut off our nose to spite our face, and
2 regret not buying it. And --
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I agree with that,
4 Governor. I think we see a lot of projects come
5 along, and land owners hire a bunch of lobbyists
6 and lawyers to come convince us that this low
7 price that's -- that's maybe the lowest
8 appraisal price is such a good deal, and we
9 usually, you know, wind up buying it, and it
10 maybe was.
11 Now we have one where actually it may seem
12 high, but it may -- this may be the cheapest one
13 we've ever bought. And the unwillingness or the
14 reluctance of this -- of the owners is a pretty
15 good indication that we really are buying
16 something we need to have, and it's probably a
17 pretty good price, even though it seems high in
18 comparison.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Can we reach
20 a decision point on this?
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move we
22 buy it.
23 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion and a second.
25 So many as favor, say aye.
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1 TREASURER NELSON: Aye.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Aye.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Aye.
5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: No.
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. Motion carries.
8 We just bought it.
9 MS. WETHERELL: Item 24 -- item 24 is a
10 final order denying an after the fact consent of
11 use for a constructed dock that does not comply
12 with aquatic preserve rules.
13 Mr. Chairman, the -- both the applicant's
14 representative and the builder of the docks,
15 both gentlemen are here and would like to
16 speak. And I will call them up here.
17 What I would like to say to you, Governor,
18 and Trustees, first though is that this has been
19 very difficult for the staff of the agency from
20 the standpoint that, as we discussed last fall,
21 the aquatic preserve rule is one of our most
22 stringent prescriptive rules. We had a long
23 debate about the fact that it is very
24 prescriptive.
25 And that was in regard to whether or not
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1 you would delegate aquatic preserve activities,
2 decisions of those activities to us.
3 As a result of that coming right on the
4 heels of that discussion with you about how
5 prescriptive it was, and the fact that we, your
6 staff, has not had discretion here, we made the
7 decision, as we have always in the past on
8 aquatic preserve rules, that we're bringing to
9 you adherence to the rules. You do have
10 discretion in the rules to decide when you think
11 that it doesn't make sense.
12 So with that, I would go ahead and call on
13 the -- Mr. Scott --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Do you have a
15 recommendation now?
16 MS. WETHERELL: Well, I think what the
17 staff had talked to the applicant about in the
18 past was trying to find a way to allow them to
19 keep the dock, and to keep the dock in a way
20 that doesn't set some -- some precedent for the
21 future.
22 We have talked in terms of asking the
23 applicant to shorten the dock, to reduce the
24 width of the dock. I think the fact is that
25 once you get into reducing the width of the
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1 dock, you're getting into major rebuilding. So
2 I think that's something you want to discuss.
3 The dock is -- by the rule, it's too wide,
4 too long, and too low. But if you're going to
5 bring them into compliance with the rule,
6 they're going to have to pull it up and start
7 over.
8 So if you just shorten it, you have an
9 opportunity to -- to do that without the same
10 kind of totally starting over as you would by
11 making them come into the width and the height
12 requirements.
13 So you might want to look at the length of
14 the dock, asking them to come into compliance
15 with the length as one alternative. They may
16 have other suggestions for you. But that is
17 something for you to consider.
18 Let me just tell you that when this rule --
19 this rule was adopted in '81, and our staff says
20 that at the time that it was adopted, they went
21 out, and they extensively surveyed the aquatic
22 preserves in the state.
23 And they came up with kind of an average of
24 the length of -- width and the sizes of these
25 docks and aquatic preserves.
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1 And they came up with kind of a fair share
2 concept, which is that the public has a right to
3 these water bodies as well as the riparian
4 owners.
5 And so they basically came up with this
6 notion that 60 percent of the water body should
7 be left open to the public for their use; and
8 20 percent on either side, or a total of
9 40 percent, to the -- for private uses, the
10 riparian uses on the side.
11 And so this 60/40 fair share concept was
12 developed in the '80s. And, you know, quite
13 frankly, anything you come up with, people are
14 going to -- there are going to need to be
15 exceptions.
16 And so I guess I'm suggesting to you that
17 perhaps your ability as the Trustees to
18 consider -- use your discretion, and to consider
19 when it's appropriate to change it is probably
20 not a bad way to go.
21 Although from the applicant's viewpoint, I
22 understand that they've got to go through a long
23 process to get here.
24 And so that's from -- from their view.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, in this attempt to
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1 shorten this, at least in my own mind --
2 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
3 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- my understanding is
4 that it's fairly clear from -- that there is no
5 estoppel on the part of the state. We are
6 constantly told -- and the documents reflect --
7 that they needed the final approval of the
8 Trustees, even though they got the DER permit,
9 at one time I guess they got the DNR before
10 there was a merger.
11 But --
12 MS. WETHERELL: No, they didn't have the
13 DNR. That --
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well --
15 MS. WETHERELL: -- was the issue. They had
16 the --
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay.
18 MS. WETHERELL: -- DER and the Corps. They
19 had everything except --
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Right. They got --
21 MS. WETHERELL: -- for your authorization.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- the Corps. They got
23 everything but the Trustees.
24 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Now -- and the
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1 hearing officer sort of found this. And yet the
2 hearing officer recommended, in spite of finding
3 this, that some relief be granted so that the
4 dock be allowed.
5 Now you're telling us that the rule was
6 adopted in 1981, and why the purpose of that
7 rule.
8 It's my understanding also, the time that
9 rule was adopted, we were looking at a different
10 body of water, were we not, where there was
11 more --
12 MS. WETHERELL: We were looking at --
13 trying to look at all the aquatic preserves,
14 all --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: All aquatic. But in the
16 particular occasion, came up with navigation
17 problems in St. John's or someplace else --
18 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
19 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- is kind of what they
20 were thinking on.
21 So it seems like to me what we've got is
22 sort of a rule that may be too restrictive at
23 times. And yet we've got a situation in which
24 they did not come before us, which they should
25 have.
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1 And now the question is: Is there some
2 solution out of this?
3 My understanding is that you might be able
4 to shorten the length of the dock because you
5 just saw off a piece of it if you're doing
6 that. But if you looked at height and depth and
7 width, all that, you would tear the dock down.
8 MS. WETHERELL: You would be rebuilding.
9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. That gives us --
10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: With that, can I ask
11 a question?
12 That having been said, and I agree with the
13 summary, your raising the issue of shortening
14 the dock, is that something that has been
15 discussed with the owner?
16 (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
17 MS. WETHERELL: I think it has. I think
18 it's -- and I wasn't there, you might want to
19 hear from staff who was there.
20 But it was raised in conjunction with also
21 meeting some of the other criteria, the width,
22 perhaps the height.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Well, that's -- and
24 that's my concern.
25 MS. WETHERELL: Yeah.
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1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: By the way, we all
2 know that shortening the dock also has a
3 significant impact on the amount of draft --
4 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- at the end of that
6 dock.
7 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Because the owner
9 built it as long as he built it to get 4 feet of
10 water. Which his neighbors could do, I
11 understand, without that extension by cutting
12 the dock back.
13 My understanding is to any degree, he now
14 moves from 4 feet to 2 to 3 foot draft, which
15 significantly impacts the size of the craft that
16 can be placed at that dock.
17 So it -- I guess my point is: It's not
18 simply a matter of cutting off part of the
19 dock. If it were that easy, I'm sure he
20 probably would agree to that. He has it where
21 he has it, because that impacts the amount of
22 draft that exists, and the size of the craft
23 that can be moored there.
24 MS. WETHERELL: And keep in mind that our
25 staff doesn't have the flexibility to give that
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1 criteria --
2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand.
3 MS. WETHERELL: -- away.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I understand.
5 MS. WETHERELL: So, you know, I doubt that
6 was offered, because they don't have that
7 flexibility.
8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So you've got a
9 hearing officer's report which basically says he
10 can do what it is he already did.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Well --
12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Versus the
13 recommendation from staff as an alternative,
14 which is to saw it off and saw it in half, which
15 basically means tear it out and begin again
16 under the present rule --
17 MS. WETHERELL: Well, what -- what I think
18 the hearing officer has said is the fact that
19 he's agreeing that they don't meet the criteria
20 in the rule. But he's saying in spite of that,
21 the recommendation should be to allow him to
22 retain it.
23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The bottom line is --
24 MS. WETHERELL: Yeah.
25 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- leave it where it
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1 is.
2 (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
3 MS. WETHERELL: Right. So --
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So I guess -- I'm
5 going to play off what the Governor just said
6 then, and ask: Has staff -- or does staff have
7 the ability to talk about shortening the dock,
8 even though I recognize the impact that that has
9 on draft, and leaving the remainder of the dock
10 as is, also discussing the number of slips that
11 would be available at that dock --
12 MS. WETHERELL: If you give us that
13 direction.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: My point -- my point
15 being, if you move it from 4 feet to 2 feet
16 draft, you've immediately taken out a rather
17 large category of craft, probably motor
18 vehicles, which allows you a limited number of
19 other craft that you could moor there; which
20 basically raises the question, if you can only
21 puts sailboats there that don't draft any
22 further than 2 to 3 feet, what difference does
23 it make if you put two of them there, or 108 of
24 them there. What you're trying to do is not
25 impact the bed.
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1 So I guess what I'm asking is: If this --
2 if this body directs you to do so, do we have
3 the ability to send you back to negotiate with
4 the owner and simply say, how about succumbing
5 to the idea of the 4 foot draft, back your dock
6 up to 2 -- to a 2 foot draft, whatever degree
7 that would take, leave the rest of the dock
8 intact, including width, and also negotiate the
9 number of slips that then would be available and
10 what is left of that particular dock.
11 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir, Commissioner.
12 The rule has a provision in it that gives you as
13 the Trustees the discretion to direct us in --
14 and in almost any way in regard --
15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And, of course, at
16 that point, it's his decision to make. He can
17 either -- if this -- if the Board of Trustees
18 votes on behalf of staff, he's basically, even
19 though it doesn't appear -- might not appear
20 that way in the proposal, he's going to tear out
21 his dock and be left with nothing but to start
22 again.
23 The fallback point is, if we accept the --
24 the hearing officer's report, he keeps what he's
25 got. So the midline point is to say, keep what
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1 you've got, but back it up the appropriate
2 number of feet to a 2 to 3 foot draft, which
3 would not negatively impact the bottom, and
4 would also allow him to have possibly more boat
5 slips than was even --
6 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- in the
8 hearing officer's report. It's a thought.
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, let me -- one
10 other thought. If -- based on the
11 hearing officer's recommendation and all of the
12 facts that are in the case, had you had the
13 authority to grant a waiver, would you have
14 probably done that?
15 MS. WETHERELL: Would I have probably done
16 that?
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah.
18 MS. WETHERELL: You know, given the fact
19 that there's been so much confusion on both
20 sides, given the fact it's two different
21 agencies when all this started. A lot has
22 happened in that period of time. I don't think
23 it would happen today. So I don't think I would
24 be setting a precedent.
25 So, yes, if I had the discretion, I
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1 probably would have recommended a compromise
2 somewhere here.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I would move the
4 hearing officer's report. I really -- I don't
5 think there's any -- that they'll see this
6 again. So if everybody thinks it's a --
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded the
9 hearing officer's report.
10 Is there discussion?
11 So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Aye.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Aye.
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Aye.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
17 MS. WETHERELL: Item 25 is a policy on
18 linear facilities.
19 I see the Comptroller has had to leave. He
20 had asked that we give a brief presentation on
21 this policy. And if it's the desire,
22 Mr. Chairman, for us to continue to do that,
23 we'll do a very brief one --
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: We're -- give the
25 presentation.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah. I
2 just have some comments I want to put on record
3 on this. If anyone wants the presentation, we
4 can have one I guess.
5 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I would
6 recommend -- wait for the General.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I just have
8 a couple of remarks just to put on the record,
9 if we can, because we -- we spent a lot of time
10 during legislative session on this.
11 And -- but it also appears that they're
12 reaching a consensus here, many people gave and
13 took really on the issue. And it could take a
14 great deal of time, energy, and effort of doing
15 it. I congratulate everybody on reaching a
16 consensus.
17 But before we vote on it, I want to make
18 sure that the concessions the Board would be
19 making by adopting policy will not become the
20 floor for legislative debate and possibly weaken
21 protection of lands we purchased for
22 preservation.
23 I think we have the electric utilities
24 here. Are they here?
25 Somebody raise your hand.
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1 Okay. Richard.
2 Is anybody here from the pipeline
3 facilities industry?
4 Just mention your names for the record.
5 MS. WETHERELL: They have asked to speak --
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Oh, okay.
7 MS. LONGMAN: I'm Anne Longman.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Are you
9 opposed to this, or you're in favor of this --
10 MS. LONGMAN: No. We're supporting the
11 policy.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
13 And also, Richard, you're supporting it,
14 too, right?
15 MR. BRIGHTMAN: That's correct.
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How about
17 somebody here from telecommunications industry?
18 MR. TUBAUGH: Yes.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Your name,
20 sir?
21 MR. TUBAUGH: Wayne Tubaugh, and we're
22 supporting it.
23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
24 And what are the -- basically just to put
25 on the record, if you oppose this, please let me
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1 know, because my staff says you're not, but I
2 just want to put it on the record.
3 You say you support the policy, and,
4 therefore, you also support it before the
5 Legislature if it gets to that this year?
6 Okay. Since there's no negative
7 response --
8 Now, whether --
9 MS. LONGMAN: General --
10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- and your
11 question is --
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It's too light --
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right.
14 Now, whether you will seek legislation --
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. Somebody's
16 standing.
17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Oh,
18 somebody's standing. I'm sorry, ma'am.
19 MS. LONGMAN: I just wanted to clarify our
20 position.
21 You want to finish your question first?
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
23 Does anybody plan on seeking legislation
24 this session on any issue concerning the
25 crossing of state lands by linear facilities?
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1 Do any of the three of you plan on it? I
2 don't think you do, right?
3 MS. LONGMAN: No. We have no plan. And
4 have not had any plan to initiate any
5 legislation of that type --
6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: No crosses, no --
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No crosses,
8 no --
9 I just want to get it out of the way now,
10 as opposed to on the -- I know all three of you
11 are in agreement.
12 That's why I -- I just wanted -- that's all
13 I wanted to do, Governor. Thank you very much.
14 It's going to save us thousands of dollars
15 during the legislative session.
16 MS. WETHERELL: General, there was one
17 other individual who had asked to speak, other
18 than the ones you called upon, and that was
19 Peter Belmont who wished to speak. And I do not
20 know his position, but he had asked to speak.
21 But --
22 MR. BELMONT: I think you covered our
23 concern. We're speaking on behalf of
24 Sierra Club. I don't think we've ever heard
25 what the real nature of the problem was, that
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1 there are projects that were coming before you
2 that were being denied the use of State lands.
3 But our concern, as you pointed out, was we
4 don't want to have to spend hours in the
5 Legislature this year. And I think you have
6 brought that out.
7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I appreciate
8 the 4 minutes to be able to save all of us many
9 hours in the Legislature this year.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, General.
12 GOVERNOR CHILES: We need a motion on
13 that?
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll move
15 it.
16 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved. Seconded.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 MS. WETHERELL: Thank you.
20 Item 26, we're recommending deferral at the
21 applicant's request.
22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
25 Without objection, it's deferred.
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1 MS. WETHERELL: And item 27 is a
2 modification of a lease and reconsideration of
3 an administrative fund.
4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So move.
5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and second.
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. I vote
9 no on -- was that split up, or was that --
10 MS. WETHERELL: Well, it was -- I think the
11 motion --
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We had two
13 motions, or --
14 MS. WETHERELL: -- was together --
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- one
16 motion?
17 MS. WETHERELL: -- both of them. Both the
18 modification and the fine.
19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. I
20 vote no.
21 TREASURER NELSON: And I vote no.
22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
23 MS. WETHERELL: Okay. Thank you. That's
24 it.
25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moving right on.
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1 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
2 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
3 *
4 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
5 12:15 p.m.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA:
5 COUNTY OF LEON:
6 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
7 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
8 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
9 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
10 pages numbered 1 through 124 are a true and correct
11 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
13 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
14 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
15 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
16 DATED THIS 2ND day of FEBRUARY, 1996.
17
18
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
100 Salem Court
20 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
(904) 878-2221
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