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          1
 
          2                  T H E   C A B I N E T
 
          3             S T A T E   O F   F L O R I D A
 
          4
                                 Representing:
          5
                        COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC
          6                 AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
                      FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD
          7              STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                            DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
          8               DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY
                               AND MOTOR VEHICLES
          9                  DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                            STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
         10                ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                             TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
         11                   IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
                           MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION
         12
 
         13
                       The above agencies came to be heard before
         14   THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
              presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
         15   The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Wednesday,
              November 29, 1995, commencing at approximately
         16   9:44 a.m.
 
         17
 
         18                       Reported by:
 
         19                    LAURIE L. GILBERT
                        Registered Professional Reporter
         20                 Certified Court Reporter
                            Notary Public in and for
         21              the State of Florida at Large
 
         22
 
         23            ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
                                100 SALEM COURT
         24                TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
                                  904/878-2221
         25                      1-800/934-9090
 
 

 
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              2
 
          1   APPEARANCES:
 
          2            Representing the Florida Cabinet:
 
          3            LAWTON CHILES
                       Governor
          4
                       BOB MILLIGAN
          5            Comptroller
 
          6            SANDRA B. MORTHAM
                       Secretary of State
          7
                       BOB BUTTERWORTH
          8            Attorney General
 
          9            BILL NELSON
                       Treasurer
         10
                       FRANK T. BROGAN
         11            Commissioner of Education
 
         12                           *
 
         13
 
         14
 
         15
 
         16
 
         17
 
         18
 
         19
 
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

 
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              3
 
          1                        I N D E X
 
          2   ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
 
          3   COMMISSION ON MINORITY
              ECONOMIC AND BUSINESS
          4   DEVELOPMENT:
              (Presented by Tereasa P. Stewart,
          5       Interim Executive Administrator)
 
          6    1                  Draft Final Order        14
 
          7   FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD:
              (Presented by Martin Young,
          8       Secretary)
 
          9    1                  Approved                 15
               2                  Approved                 15
         10
              STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
         11   (Presented by John W. Madden,
                  Chief Administrative Officer)
         12
               1                  Approved                 16
         13    2                  Approved                 16
               3                  Approved                 16
         14    4                  Approved                 17
               5                  Approved                 17
         15    6                  Approved                 17
 
         16   DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
              (Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
         17       Director)
 
         18    1                  Approved                 18
               2                  Approved                 18
         19    3                  Approved                 19
               4(a), (b), and (c) Approved                 19
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              4
 
          1                         I N D E X
                                   (Continued)
          2
              ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
          3
              DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES:
          4   (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
                  Executive Director)
          5
               1                  Approved                 21
          6    2                  Approved                 21
               3                  Approved                 22
          7    4                  Approved                 22
               5                  Approved                 23
          8    6                  Withdrawn                23
               7                  Approved                 23
          9
              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
         10   (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
                  Executive Director)
         11
               1                  Approved                 25
         12    2-8                Approved                 25
               9                  Approved                 26
         13   10                  Approved                 29
 
         14   STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
              (Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
         15       Deputy Commissioner)
 
         16    1                  Approved                 30
               2                  Approved                 30
         17    3                  Approved                 30
               4                  Approved                 33
         18    5                  Deferred                 34
 
         19   ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
              (Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
         20       Secretary)
 
         21    1                  Approved                 35
               2                  Approved                 35
         22    3                  Approved                 36
               4A and 4B          Approved                 36
         23
 
         24
 
         25
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              5
 
          1
                                    I N D E X
          2                        (Continued)
 
          3   ITEM                  ACTION                PAGE
 
          4   BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
              INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
          5   TRUST FUND:
              (Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
          6       Secretary)
 
          7    1                  Approved                 37
               2                  Approved                 37
          8    3                  Approved                 39
               4                  Approved                 45
          9    5                  Approved                 45
               6                  Approved                 46
         10    7                  Approved                 46
               8                  Approved                 46
         11    9                  Approved                 49
              10                  Deferred                 49
         12   11                  Bifurcation              69
                                    Fine                   73
         13                         Deferred               75
              12                  Deferred                 75
         14
              MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION:
         15   (Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D.,
                  Executive Director)
         16
               A                  Approved                 77
         17    B                  Withdrawn                78
               C                  Approved                 78
         18    D                  Approved                 79
               E                  Approved                 79
         19    F                  Approved                 79
               G                  Approved                 99
         20    H, I, J, K         Approved                100
               L                  Approved                194
         21    M                  Approved                164
 
         22            CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER            195
 
         23                           *
 
         24
 
         25
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               COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC/BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              6
 
          1                  P R O C E E D I N G S
 
10:46     2            (The agenda items commenced at 9:59 a.m.)
 
10:55     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Commission on Minority
 
10:55     4       Economic and Business Development.
 
10:55     5            MS. STEWART:  We have one item today on our
 
10:55     6       agenda.  The item is final agency action on an
 
10:55     7       administrative hearing in the case of Test Lab,
 
10:55     8       Inc., of the denial of application for
 
10:55     9       certification as a Minority Business Enterprise.
 
10:55    10            We are requesting that this item be
 
10:55    11       deferred until your December 12th meeting.
 
10:55    12            Also I'd like to let you know,
 
10:55    13       Governor Chiles, that the owner of Test Lab is
 
10:55    14       here today.  She was here last time.  She's been
 
10:55    15       very patient with us.  We were unable to reach
 
10:56    16       her last night by telephone to let her know that
 
10:56    17       we were going to request denial.
 
10:56    18            She would like to address --
 
         19            MS. McCORD:  Deferral.
 
10:56    20            MS. STEWART:  -- she has a few words that
 
10:56    21       she -- that she would like to say to you before
 
10:56    22       we take action on our request to defer.
 
10:56    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Would she rather address
 
10:56    24       us now, or at the December the 12th when we'll
 
10:56    25       be taking the action?  I think you might -- a
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              7
 
10:56     1       lot of times that you might want to wait.
 
10:56     2            We apologize for --
 
10:56     3            MS. STEWART:  Let --
 
10:56     4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- the delay --
 
10:56     5            MS. STEWART:  Could I --
 
10:56     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- having you up here
 
10:56     7       twice.
 
10:56     8            MS. STEWART:  Could I confer with her, and
 
10:56     9       see what --
 
10:56    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You might confer with
 
10:56    11       her.  I think it might be more litigious --
 
         12            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor --
 
10:56    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- for her to wait till
 
10:56    14       the 12th.
 
10:56    15            MS. STEWART:  Mrs. -- we -- I will confer
 
10:56    16       with her.  She was aware, Governor, this
 
10:56    17       morning -- I have spoken with her, and she's
 
10:56    18       aware that we were going to ask for the
 
10:56    19       deferral.
 
10:56    20            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor --
 
10:56    21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
 
10:56    22            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- I'd like to move
 
10:56    23       that we reject the conclusions of law in the
 
10:56    24       hearing officer's proposed final order.  And
 
10:56    25       that for the next Cabinet meeting on
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              8
 
10:57     1       December 12th, staff be directed to draft a new
 
10:57     2       proposal on the order which will certify
 
10:57     3       Test Lab.
 
10:57     4            And with that motion, if there is a second,
 
10:57     5       maybe she would like to speak to that.
 
10:57     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
10:57     7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
10:57     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and
 
10:57     9       seconded --
 
10:57    10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Could I
 
10:57    11       ask -- could I ask a question, Governor?
 
10:57    12            Governor, I -- as I understand it, if we
 
10:57    13       defer this, she will automatically be certified
 
10:57    14       as of the 4th.  So she gets the result she wants
 
10:57    15       with a deferral.
 
10:57    16            And this record will -- and this Board will
 
10:57    17       not be on record for going against the Lavernia
 
10:57    18       case, and will not be precedential in the -- in
 
10:57    19       value by anybody else coming up.
 
10:57    20            So maybe the best result is --
 
10:57    21       Madam Secretary, is to defer it.  And then we
 
10:57    22       get to what I think you're getting at, but
 
10:57    23       without having to maybe compromise the former
 
10:57    24       cases that came before us, and future cases.
 
10:57    25            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, if I could
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                                November 29, 1995
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10:57     1       speak to that issue.
 
10:58     2            This thing has been going on now for --
 
10:58     3       well, since November of 1993.  And the fact that
 
10:58     4       we can defer this, and it will become
 
10:58     5       automatically certified to me is absolutely
 
10:58     6       phenomenal that that would be the position that
 
10:58     7       this Board would take.  And it would seem to me
 
10:58     8       that we should stand up and say yes or no.
 
10:58     9            And not just say because we wait for two
 
10:58    10       more weeks, this woman is going to become
 
10:58    11       automatically certified in the meantime because
 
10:58    12       the time has run out.
 
10:58    13            MS. STEWART:  Governor Chiles, could I add
 
10:58    14       something?
 
10:58    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Pardon?
 
10:58    16            MS. STEWART:  Could I add something?
 
10:58    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, let me just say
 
10:58    18       that my understanding is there is -- my
 
10:58    19       understanding is there's probably a majority
 
10:58    20       here that would like to see her certified.
 
10:59    21            The concern seems to be as to whether we
 
10:59    22       are going to set a precedent, and making sure
 
10:59    23       that we don't set a precedent that bites us
 
10:59    24       later.
 
10:59    25            So under those circumstances, it seems
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              10
 
10:59     1       like, you know, we ought to be able to reach
 
10:59     2       something so either, you know, we -- we work
 
10:59     3       this out.  And if we have something before us
 
10:59     4       now that -- that may set a precedent, I don't
 
10:59     5       want to do that, and I doubt if anybody does.
 
10:59     6            At the same time, I think the sentiment is
 
10:59     7       very strong that this lady -- and the factual
 
10:59     8       situation that everything that she's done, she
 
10:59     9       deserves to be certified.
 
10:59    10            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Could I have -- ask
 
10:59    11       a --
 
10:59    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
 
10:59    13            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- question?
 
         14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
 
10:59    15            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  My understanding from
 
10:59    16       our attorneys are that exceptions have been
 
10:59    17       filed, and that she will not automatically be
 
10:59    18       certified.
 
10:59    19            Is that true or untrue?
 
10:59    20            MS. STEWART:  Secretary Mortham, the issue
 
10:59    21       of automatic certification came up about
 
10:59    22       15 minutes before this Cabinet meeting.  And I
 
10:59    23       cannot answer that correctly.  We have -- I've
 
11:00    24       spoken with -- with attorneys, and there are
 
11:00    25       different feelings on that.  So I cannot answer
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              11
 
11:00     1       that question.
 
11:00     2            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
 
11:00     3       maybe we could resolve it this way:  That if we
 
11:00     4       defer, and according to the motion of the
 
11:00     5       Secretary of State, and if we have to come back
 
11:00     6       next time, we'll -- we can probably draft the
 
11:00     7       motion in such a way where it will not be -- or
 
11:00     8       draft the order in such a way where it will not
 
11:00     9       affect any of the future people.
 
11:00    10            So if, in fact, the exceptions do toll,
 
11:00    11       the -- the December 4th date -- which there's an
 
11:00    12       argument that can be made -- but the person who
 
11:00    13       will be making that argument will probably be
 
11:00    14       us.  Since we don't make the argument, it's
 
11:00    15       probably moot.
 
11:00    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I'm just trying
 
11:00    17       to -- you know, what are you -- what does that
 
11:00    18       say as far as we're going to come back and make
 
11:00    19       sure that we draft an order that doesn't set --
 
11:00    20       you know, that isn't a -- doesn't set a bad
 
11:00    21       precedent?
 
11:00    22            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Right.  If
 
11:00    23       one is needed.  If one is needed.  If no order
 
11:00    24       is needed, the issue is over, like you stated
 
11:01    25       today, Governor.  If a motion is needed, I'm
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              12
 
11:01     1       sure a motion will be drafted that would not
 
11:01     2       compromise the law, or will -- what we've been
 
11:01     3       doing up here.
 
11:01     4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, could I ask
 
11:01     5       a question --
 
11:01     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
 
11:01     7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- and I guess,
 
11:01     8       General Butterworth, from a legal standpoint.
 
11:01     9       If we do reject a conclusion of law, as is
 
11:01    10       called for in the Secretary's motion, does it
 
11:01    11       require a statement from this body as to why we
 
11:01    12       reject that motion?
 
11:01    13            It's my understanding that whenever you
 
11:01    14       reject a conclusion of law, the onus is on you
 
11:01    15       to -- to do more than just reject it, you have
 
11:01    16       to make a statement as to why you disagree and
 
11:01    17       why you reject it.
 
11:01    18            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
 
11:01    19       I -- my position would be we probably should.
 
11:01    20       And I think the Lavernia case --
 
11:01    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  If you're headed
 
11:01    22       with --
 
11:01    23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Right.
 
11:01    24            In the Lavernia case, the case we're
 
11:01    25       basically stuck with, and the Lavernia case
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                                November 29, 1995
                                                              13
 
11:01     1       could be distinguished from where we're at right
 
11:01     2       now because some of the delay over the years has
 
11:01     3       been caused by the department.
 
11:01     4            So we can distinguish the Lavernia case,
 
11:02     5       and we could draft a final order and a motion
 
11:02     6       for this particular Board to take, which would
 
11:02     7       not compromise the -- the Court with the
 
11:02     8       Lavernia case, or the Legislature, and --
 
11:02     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is the intent of your
 
11:02    10       motion -- let me just get -- that we -- that we
 
11:02    11       reject the conclusions of law of the
 
11:02    12       hearing officer, and that staff be instructed to
 
11:02    13       draft an appropriate order to --
 
11:02    14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Right.
 
11:02    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- take effect at the
 
11:02    16       next --
 
11:02    17            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Correct.
 
11:02    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- at the next meeting.
 
         19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Uh-hum.
 
11:02    20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have no
 
11:02    21       problem with that.
 
11:02    22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Got a
 
11:02    23       second.
 
11:02    24            So many as favor, say aye.
 
11:02    25            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Aye.
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               COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC/BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              14
 
11:02     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Aye.
 
          2            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Aye.
 
11:02     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Passed.
 
11:02     4            I don't know that you need to speak now.
 
11:02     5       But we'd be happy to hear from you.
 
11:02     6            I think it's -- it's gone in your favor.
 
11:02     7            MS. CORNWELL:  All right.  Thank you.
 
11:02     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:02     9            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Sometimes it's hard
 
11:02    10       to tell.
 
11:02    11            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  That's
 
11:03    12       common courtesy to say thank you.
 
         13            (The Commission on Minority Economic and
 
         14       Business Development Agenda was concluded.)
 
         15                             *
 
         16
 
         17
 
         18
 
         19
 
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
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                       FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              15
 
11:03     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Fiscal Accounting
 
11:03     2       Information Board.
 
11:03     3            MR. YOUNG:  Good morning, Governor.
 
11:03     4       Martin Young, Secretary, Fiscal Accounting
 
11:03     5       Information Board.
 
11:03     6            Request approval of the minutes for the
 
11:03     7       February 28th, 1995, meeting.
 
11:03     8            TREASURER NELSON:  Motion.
 
11:03     9            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:03    11            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:03    12            MR. YOUNG:  Request approval of the FFAMIS
 
11:03    13       Fee Policy Guidelines.
 
11:03    14            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Move.
 
11:03    15            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:03    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:03    17            Without objection, it's approved.
 
         18            MR. YOUNG:  Thank you.
 
         19            (The Fiscal Accounting Information Board
 
         20       Agenda was concluded.)
 
         21                             *
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
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                          STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              16
 
11:03     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of
 
11:03     2       Administration.
 
11:03     3            MR. MADDEN:  Good morning, Governor.  I'm
 
11:03     4       Jack Madden.  I'm handling the agenda for
 
11:03     5       Mr. Williams.
 
11:03     6            Item 1 is approval of the minutes.
 
11:03     7            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:03     8            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:03     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Motion and seconded.
 
11:03    10            Without objection, approved.
 
11:03    11            MR. MADDEN:  Item 2 is an interest rate
 
11:03    12       exception for the Bay Creek Community
 
11:03    13       Development District.
 
11:03    14            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:03    15            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:03    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:03    17            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:03    18            MR. MADDEN:  Item 3 is an interest rate
 
11:03    19       exception for the Dove Pointe Community
 
11:03    20       Development District.
 
11:03    21            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:03    22            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.
 
11:03    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:03    24            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:04    25            MR. MADDEN:  Item 4 is an interest rate
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                          STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              17
 
11:04     1       exception for the Indian Trace Community
 
11:04     2       Development District.
 
11:04     3            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:04     4            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:04     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:04     6            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:04     7            MR. MADDEN:  Item 5 is an interest rate
 
11:04     8       exception for the St. Lucie West Services
 
11:04     9       District.
 
11:04    10            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:04    11            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:04    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:04    13            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:04    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  The Division of Bond
 
11:04    15       Finance.
 
11:04    16            MR. MADDEN:  There was one more item.
 
11:04    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Excuse me.
 
11:04    18            MR. MADDEN:  Item 6 is the extension of the
 
11:04    19       Hurricane Relief Loan Program.
 
11:04    20            TREASURER NELSON:  Move it.
 
11:04    21            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.
 
11:04    22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:04    23            Without objection, it's approved.
 
         24            (The State Board of Administration Agenda
 
         25       was concluded.)
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                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              18
 
11:04     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of Bond --
 
11:04     2       Division of Bond Finance.
 
11:04     3            MR. WATKINS:  We have several items for
 
11:04     4       your consideration this morning.
 
11:04     5            Item 1 is approval of the minutes of the
 
11:04     6       meeting of October 24th, 1995.
 
11:04     7            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:04     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  There's a motion.
 
11:04     9            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  And a second.
 
11:04    11            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:04    12            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 2 is a resolution
 
11:04    13       to authorize the issuance of 242 million capital
 
11:04    14       outlay bonds on behalf of the State Board of
 
11:04    15       Education.
 
11:05    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move it.
 
11:05    17            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:05    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:05    19            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:05    20            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 3 is the report
 
11:05    21       to sale of 255 million PECO bonds, which were
 
11:05    22       sold at competitive sale to the low bidder at a
 
11:05    23       true interest cost of 5.62 percent.
 
11:05    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is that two hundred
 
11:05    25       and twenty-five thousand -- or million?
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              19
 
11:05     1            MR. MADDEN:  Two hundred fifty-five million
 
11:05     2       four hundred thousand --
 
11:05     3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I've just got a typo.
 
11:05     4            Move approval.
 
11:05     5            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:05     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:05     7            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:05     8            MR. WATKINS:  Item number 4 is the report
 
11:05     9       to sale of three bond issues issued on behalf of
 
11:05    10       the Florida Housing Finance Agency.
 
11:05    11            The first is a 94.6 million dollar single
 
11:05    12       family bond issue sold at negotiated sale at a
 
11:05    13       true interest cost of 5.87 percent; the second
 
11:05    14       is a 12.9 million dollar multifamily bond issue
 
11:05    15       sold at negotiated sale of a true interest cost
 
11:05    16       of 6.17 percent; and the third is an 8.4 million
 
11:05    17       dollar multifamily bond issue sold at negotiated
 
11:06    18       sale at a true interest cost of 5.9 percent.
 
11:06    19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval, with a
 
11:06    20       question, Governor.
 
11:06    21            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:06    22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:06    23            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:06    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is it -- am I
 
11:06    25       correct, have we been getting a little bit
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              20
 
11:06     1       better negotiated bid of late on these housing
 
11:06     2       projects?
 
11:06     3            MR. WATKINS:  We -- I have been happy with
 
11:06     4       the -- with the fees and expenses that have been
 
11:06     5       paid to the underwriters on the negotiated
 
11:06     6       sale.  We hire a financial advisor who polices
 
11:06     7       that and advises us on that.
 
11:06     8            And I've been happy with each one that
 
11:06     9       we've sold so far, that we've got a fair and
 
11:06    10       reasonable price on the bonds, and the fees and
 
11:06    11       expenses that were paid were reasonable.
 
11:06    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  We're doing better than
 
11:06    13       we were -- than we used to do?
 
11:06    14            MR. WATKINS:  We're moving in the right
 
11:06    15       direction, Governor.
 
11:06    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Keep moving.
 
11:06    17            MR. WATKINS:  Thank you.
 
         18            (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
 
         19       concluded.)
 
         20                             *
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              21
 
11:06     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Department of Highway
 
11:06     2       Safety and Motor Vehicles.
 
11:06     3            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 1, Governor, is
 
11:06     4       approval of the minutes of October 12th, '95,
 
11:06     5       meeting.
 
11:06     6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
 
11:06     7            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:06     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
 
11:06     9            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:06    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
 
         11            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 2 is --
 
11:07    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Without objection --
 
         13            MR. DICKINSON:  -- approval of --
 
11:07    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- they're approved.
 
11:07    15            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 2 is the quarterly
 
11:07    16       report.
 
11:07    17            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:07    18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:07    19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:07    20            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:07    21            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 3 is the request
 
11:07    22       permission to repeal the following rules.  Those
 
11:07    23       are the rules from the old motor vehicle
 
11:07    24       inspection program that was abolished in '81.
 
11:07    25            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              22
 
11:07     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:07     2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:07     3            Without objection, they're approved.
 
11:07     4            MR. DICKINSON:  Item 4 is request approval
 
11:07     5       and authority to file with the Secretary of
 
11:07     6       State our Division of Driver License
 
11:07     7       Administrative Hearing Rule.  We are codifying
 
11:07     8       changes in the statutes from last session for --
 
11:07     9            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:07    10            MR. DICKINSON:  -- hard suspension for
 
11:07    11       those that are convicted of driving under the
 
11:07    12       influence.
 
11:07    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:07    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:07    15            Without objection, they're approved.
 
11:07    16            MR. DICKINSON:  Governor, item 5 is to
 
11:07    17       request authority to file with the Secretary --
 
11:07    18       Secretary of State a calibration rule that --
 
11:07    19       that regulates the devices that measure the
 
11:07    20       light that's transmitted through the tint that
 
11:07    21       goes on windows.  These blackened windows in the
 
11:07    22       cars.
 
11:07    23            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:08    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:08    25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              23
 
11:08     1            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:08     2            MR. DICKINSON:  We would request a
 
11:08     3       withdrawal of item number 6.
 
11:08     4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  So move.
 
11:08     5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:08     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:08     7            Without objection --
 
          8            MR. DICKINSON:  And item 7 --
 
11:08     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- it's approved.
 
         10            MR. DICKINSON:  -- is request authority to
 
11:08    11       contract with the engineering firm for the
 
11:08    12       relocation of the answering of the call boxes
 
11:08    13       from here to just west of Marianna.
 
11:08    14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:08    15            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:08    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:08    17            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:08    18            Looks like you repealed a lot more rules
 
11:08    19       than you instituted today.
 
11:08    20            MR. DICKINSON:  We're trying to, Governor.
 
11:08    21            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, I
 
11:08    22       notice that many people look good in a beard.
 
11:08    23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  How many is that,
 
11:08    24       General?
 
         25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              24
 
11:08     1       Unfortunately, the person -- no one's in front
 
11:08     2       of us right now, except the photographer over
 
11:08     3       here that looks good with a beard.
 
11:08     4            MR. DICKINSON:  I want to look more like
 
11:08     5       Rick Flagg, so I --
 
11:08     6            TREASURER NELSON:  You've got a long way to
 
11:09     7       go.
 
11:09     8            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  It only
 
11:09     9       takes four votes for us to put a new
 
11:09    10       commissioner in.
 
         11            (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
 
         12       Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
 
         13                             *
 
         14
 
         15
 
         16
 
         17
 
         18
 
         19
 
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              25
 
11:09     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Department of Revenue.
 
11:09     2            MR. FUCHS:  Item 1 is a request for
 
11:09     3       approval of the minutes of the October 24th
 
11:09     4       meeting.
 
11:09     5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
 
11:09     6            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:09     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:09     8            Without objection, approved.
 
11:09     9            MR. FUCHS:  Items 2 through 8 are consent
 
11:09    10       rule amendments and repeal.
 
11:09    11            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:09    12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:09    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Move approval.  Second.
 
11:09    14            Without objection, approved.
 
11:09    15            MR. FUCHS:  Item 9 is request approval and
 
11:09    16       acceptance of the Performance Contract for
 
11:09    17       myself with the Department.
 
11:09    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I don't seem to have a
 
11:09    19       motion.
 
11:09    20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Can we defer
 
11:09    21       this item also?
 
11:09    22            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:09    23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:09    24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
 
11:09    25            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Question.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              26
 
11:09     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:10     2            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:10     3            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Question.
 
11:10     4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question.
 
11:10     5            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  On the issue of -- and
 
11:10     6       I'm not sure that it would really come under 9
 
11:10     7       necessarily, maybe 10.
 
11:10     8            Where is the whole issue of the privatizing
 
11:10     9       of audits?
 
11:10    10            MR. FUCHS:  Actually, Madam Secretary,
 
11:10    11       I believe it's a -- a budget issue.  The
 
11:10    12       situation -- I think you may recall last
 
11:10    13       session, the Legislature provided funding for
 
11:10    14       privatization of the audits, but no funding of
 
11:10    15       the -- for the administration of the program.
 
11:10    16            We are currently in discussions with the
 
11:10    17       FICPA on a joint appropriations request, if you
 
11:10    18       will, or going jointly to the Legislature for an
 
11:10    19       appropriations request to continue the program
 
11:11    20       for the next fiscal year.
 
11:11    21            Meanwhile, we are trying to evaluate how
 
11:11    22       well the CPAs have completed the program as it
 
11:11    23       has existed to date.  And there have -- there
 
11:11    24       have been glitches in that, and some
 
11:11    25       continuation of funding or carry-over of funding
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              27
 
11:11     1       into succeeding years so that we can continue to
 
11:11     2       pay them.
 
11:11     3            We are just completed -- or they are just
 
11:11     4       completing, I should say, some two-and-a-half
 
11:11     5       years after the initial appropriation, the first
 
11:11     6       group of audits.
 
11:11     7            We are also issuing contracts -- you
 
11:11     8       approved them a couple of meetings ago -- for
 
11:11     9       the second group of audits, which presumably
 
11:11    10       will now commence after the tax season.  So
 
11:11    11       there are some logistical problems the industry
 
11:11    12       has in complying with the needs of the
 
11:11    13       Department -- or the State, if you will; and
 
11:12    14       there are discussions ongoing to -- to try and
 
11:12    15       come up with a logical formula that continues
 
11:12    16       the program.
 
11:12    17            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  So -- so what you're
 
11:12    18       saying is is that for this legislative session
 
11:12    19       coming up, it is your intention to go with
 
11:12    20       FICPA, and try to get another appropriation in
 
11:12    21       the budget for this item.
 
11:12    22            MR. FUCHS:  Yes.
 
11:12    23            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Okay.  Thank you.
 
11:12    24            MR. FUCHS:  Item 10 is request for approval
 
11:12    25       and concept of the Department's proposed
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              28
 
11:12     1       legislative package.
 
11:12     2            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval with a
 
11:12     3       question.
 
11:12     4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:12     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:12     6            Question.
 
11:12     7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  The -- the issue
 
11:12     8       of -- and I'm just a little confused about
 
11:12     9       this.  The issue that I think you have in your
 
11:12    10       package relevant to the paternity issue, you
 
11:12    11       with me on that one?
 
11:12    12            MR. FUCHS:  Yes, sir.
 
11:12    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  What -- what's the
 
11:12    14       difference between that issue and the one that
 
11:13    15       has a bill filed with it right now on roughly
 
11:13    16       the same issue?
 
11:13    17            MR. FUCHS:  I think if I understand it
 
11:13    18       correctly, Commissioner, they're completely
 
11:13    19       different.  In our case, all we're doing is
 
11:13    20       asking that we be relieved of the requirement to
 
11:13    21       promulgate rules that we believe are duplicative
 
11:13    22       and redundant in executing a statute that has
 
11:13    23       been previously passed.
 
11:13    24            The -- I believe the issue you're talking
 
11:13    25       about is one that has been recently proposed to
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                              DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              29
 
11:13     1       strengthen the requirement -- or requirements
 
11:13     2       for paternity establishment.
 
11:13     3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Yes.  No correlate
 
11:13     4       there?
 
11:13     5            MR. FUCHS:  No, sir.
 
11:13     6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, Governor.
 
11:13     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
11:13     8            MR. FUCHS:  Thank you.
 
11:13     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Without objection, that's
 
11:13    10       approved.
 
         11            (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
 
         12       concluded.)
 
         13                             *
 
         14
 
         15
 
         16
 
         17
 
         18
 
         19
 
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              30
 
11:13     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  State Board of Education.
 
11:13     2            Good morning, Governor Chiles, members of
 
11:13     3       the State Board of Education.
 
11:13     4            Item 1, minutes of the meeting held on
 
11:14     5       September 28th and October 12th, 1995.
 
11:14     6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:14     7            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:14     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:14     9            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:14    10            MR. BEDFORD:  Item 2, adoption of the Fifth
 
11:14    11       Supplemental Authorizing Resolution Authorizing
 
11:14    12       the issuance of Full Faith and Credit, State
 
11:14    13       Board of Education, Capital Outlay Bonds, 1996
 
11:14    14       Series A.
 
11:14    15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:14    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:14    17            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:14    18            MR. BEDFORD:  Item 3, amendment to rule
 
11:14    19       6A, dash, 1.09421, High School Competency Test
 
11:14    20       Requirements.
 
11:14    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:14    22            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:14    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:14    24            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:14    25            MR. BEDFORD:  We have a -- excuse me.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              31
 
11:14     1       There was a member in the audience that wished
 
11:14     2       to address this issue.
 
11:14     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:14     4            MR. BEDFORD:  Aaron Wallace, President of
 
11:14     5       FTP-NEA, has requested an opportunity to speak
 
11:14     6       on this item.
 
11:14     7            MR. WALLACE:  Good morning again, Governor,
 
11:14     8       members of the Cabinet.
 
11:14     9            As a classroom educator of severely
 
11:14    10       emotionally disturbed students, presently on
 
11:15    11       leave, serving as President of the Florida
 
11:15    12       Teaching Profession-NEA, as I think about it, we
 
11:15    13       prepare students for the 21st century, I know
 
11:15    14       that there's wide support for higher standards.
 
11:15    15            I must say also that my organization,
 
11:15    16       FTP-NEA, has been a long-standing advocate for
 
11:15    17       higher standards for public ed.
 
11:15    18            But quite frankly, as a classroom teacher,
 
11:15    19       I must caution you that I would think that the
 
11:15    20       floodgates are being opened for additional
 
11:15    21       failures.
 
11:15    22            Again, I emphasize the fact that we are in
 
11:15    23       support of a recommendation such as this.  I
 
11:15    24       personally see value in it, and I think my
 
11:15    25       organization sees value in it also.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              32
 
11:15     1            I think about also the stigma that is
 
11:15     2       attached to students who are categorized as
 
11:15     3       disadvantaged also, displaying a skill there.
 
11:15     4       And as that classroom teacher of SED students, I
 
11:15     5       would not like to see other dilemmas placed on
 
11:16     6       already disadvantaged students.
 
11:16     7            I ask you also a friendly question.
 
11:16     8       Because in my mind, I could see that as we
 
11:16     9       increase the number of failures, and with the
 
11:16    10       expediency of a rule such as this, is there
 
11:16    11       funding for remediation for it.  Certainly
 
11:16    12       I think that that's certainly going to come
 
11:16    13       about.
 
11:16    14            I'm also aware that the
 
11:16    15       Accountability Commission is going to take up
 
11:16    16       the increase of a grade point average from 1.5
 
11:16    17       to 2.0.  I see value in that also this weekend.
 
11:16    18            So I would submit, too, that this is
 
11:16    19       credible information that certainly you would
 
11:16    20       need in -- in making your decision.
 
11:16    21            My suggestion to you, as an educator, if
 
11:16    22       you see this as valuable, as a phase-in as we're
 
11:16    23       doing some of the things now as we look at
 
11:16    24       reform in education.  Because obviously the
 
11:16    25       expediency of a rule putting something into
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              33
 
11:16     1       place very, very quickly will certainly impose
 
          2       the liminous that has been relegated in the
 
11:16     3       classroom already.
 
11:16     4            And I would certainly caution you on the
 
11:16     5       side of our students, on the side of comments
 
11:17     6       that have been relegated to public ed for, we,
 
11:17     7       too, are looking for the positive ones to come
 
11:17     8       very quickly and also in the future.
 
11:17     9            Thank you very much.
 
11:17    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
11:17    11            Without objection then, the item is
 
11:17    12       approved.
 
11:17    13            MR. BEDFORD:  Item 4, amendment to rule
 
11:17    14       6A, dash, 1.09981, implementation of Florida's
 
11:17    15       System of School Improvement and Accountability.
 
11:17    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:17    17            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:17    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:17    19            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:17    20            MR. BEDFORD:  Item 5, amendment to
 
11:17    21       6A, dash, 1.09982, Reporting Requirements, we
 
11:17    22       are asking to be deferred to the January 23rd
 
11:17    23       meeting.
 
11:17    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Just a note on that
 
11:17    25       one, Governor, before we take action.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                             STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              34
 
11:17     1            That is to -- to deal with some JAPC
 
11:17     2       concerns relative to the key data elements.  So
 
11:17     3       we're just going to ask that that one be
 
11:18     4       deferred until we get that straightened out,
 
11:18     5       bring it back before you as quick as possible.
 
11:18     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:18     7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Do you need a motion
 
11:18     8       on that, Governor?
 
11:18     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
 
11:18    10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
 
11:18    11            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:18    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:18    13            Without objection, it's --
 
11:18    14            MR. BEDFORD:  Thank you.
 
         15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- approved.
 
         16            (The State Board of Education Agenda was
 
         17       concluded.)
 
         18                             *
 
         19
 
         20
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              35
 
11:18     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:
 
11:18     2       Administration Commission.
 
          3            (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
 
11:18     4       room.)
 
11:18     5            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 1, recommend
 
11:18     6       approval of the minutes of the meeting held
 
11:18     7       November 7th, 1995.
 
11:18     8            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:18     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
 
11:18    10            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Second.
 
11:18    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
 
11:18    12            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:18    13            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 2, recommend the
 
11:18    14       transfer of general revenue appropriations in
 
11:18    15       the Department of Corrections.
 
11:18    16            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:18    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:18    18            Is it seconded?
 
11:18    19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Seconded, Governor.
 
         20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Great.
 
11:18    21            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:18    22            DR. BRADLEY:  Item number 3, recommend the
 
11:18    23       transfer of general revenue appropriations in
 
11:18    24       the Department of Health and Rehabilitative
 
11:18    25       Services.
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
 

                            ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
                                November 29, 1995
                                                              36
 
11:18     1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:18     2            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:18     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:18     4            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:18     5            DR. BRADLEY:  Items 4A and B, recommend
 
11:18     6       approval of the following in the Justice
 
11:19     7       Administration Commission:  The establishment of
 
11:19     8       one position of excess in the number fixed by
 
11:19     9       the Legislature in the Fifth Judicial Circuit,
 
11:19    10       and the transfer of general revenue
 
11:19    11       appropriations in the State Attorney,
 
11:19    12       Thirteenth Circuit.
 
11:19    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, move
 
11:19    14       approval of items 4A and B.
 
11:19    15            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:19    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:19    17            Without objection, it's approved.
 
         18            (The Administration Commission Agenda was
 
         19       concluded.)
 
         20                             *
 
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
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11:19     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Board of Trustees.
 
11:19     2            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 1, minutes.
 
11:19     3            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:19     4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:19     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:19     6            Without objection, minutes are approved.
 
11:19     7            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 2, Quarterly
 
11:19     8       Management Report.
 
11:19     9            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:19    10            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:19    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:19    12            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:19    13            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 3 --
 
         14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I have a question --
 
11:19    15            MS. WETHERELL:  -- is an option --
 
         16            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- on that.
 
11:19    17            MS. WETHERELL:  -- agreement.
 
11:19    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question then.
 
11:19    19            MS. WETHERELL:  Question.
 
11:19    20            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Question on the
 
11:19    21       Management Report.  With all of this land
 
11:19    22       that -- that we are purchasing, my question
 
11:20    23       would be:  Do we, in fact, have the money --
 
         24            (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
 
         25       room.)
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                                                              38
 
11:20     1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- in the budget to
 
11:20     2       actually take care of the management of these
 
11:20     3       lands that we're purchasing?
 
11:20     4            MS. WETHERELL:  Secretary Mortham, the way
 
11:20     5       that the Legislature has been dealing with that
 
11:20     6       for the last few years has been -- their policy
 
11:20     7       has been to increase the amount of management
 
11:20     8       dollars every year out of our CARL acquisition
 
11:20     9       fund, not our P2000 fund.  And you can't do that
 
11:20    10       because of bonding restrictions.  But out of our
 
11:20    11       CARL dollars.
 
11:20    12            It's based on the percentage of dollars
 
11:20    13       spent under P2000.  So what happens is that
 
11:20    14       every year, the management dollars go up, and
 
11:20    15       the acquisition dollars go down accordingly.
 
11:20    16            So the philosophy there is that over time
 
11:20    17       as we phase out land acquisition, we'll be
 
11:20    18       increasing the management dollars out of our
 
11:20    19       CARL trust fund.
 
11:20    20            Is it adequate?  No.  But it's -- the
 
11:20    21       situation has been improving over the last few
 
11:20    22       years.  The Legislature has been focused on it,
 
11:21    23       and it has improved every year.
 
11:21    24            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Thank you.
 
11:21    25            MS. WETHERELL:  Okay.
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11:21     1            Item 3 is an option agreement for Florida
 
11:21     2       Springs Coastal Greenway.
 
11:21     3            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:21     4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:21     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:21     6            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:21     7            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 4 is a purchase
 
11:21     8       agreement for the Sebastian Creek and the
 
11:21     9       Lake George CARL projects.
 
11:21    10            We have one speaker, Commissioner -- County
 
11:21    11       Commissioner Fran Adams.
 
11:21    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good morning.
 
11:21    13            MS. ADAMS:  Thank you, Secretary.
 
11:21    14            Good morning, Governor, and Cabinet.  It's
 
11:21    15       good to see all of y'all here.  And I appreciate
 
11:21    16       the opportunity to express support from
 
11:21    17       Indian River County for the purchase of the
 
11:21    18       Coraci property.
 
11:21    19            This has been a long and tedious process.
 
11:21    20       Staff has done a wonderful job putting it
 
11:21    21       together and working with a very difficult
 
11:21    22       seller.  So we're anxious that the property is
 
11:21    23       purchased that -- for the protection of the
 
11:22    24       Sebastian River, at the Indian River lagoon, as
 
11:22    25       well as our water resources.
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11:22     1            In addition, we'd like to request that
 
11:22     2       y'all direct staff to work with our county staff
 
11:22     3       to look at some of this property in terms of
 
11:22     4       some north county recreation area, and some --
 
11:22     5       some of our economic development area there.
 
11:22     6       This has taken some property out of our node at
 
11:22     7       I-95 and 512.
 
11:22     8            And we would like to be able to explore
 
11:22     9       some options with staff.  We're not asking for
 
11:22    10       any commitment.  Just simply the ability to work
 
11:22    11       with staff.
 
11:22    12            Thank you.
 
11:22    13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion.
 
11:22    14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:22    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  There's a motion and a
 
11:22    16       second.
 
11:22    17            Madam Secretary, not knowing where we're
 
11:22    18       going in the request of the Commissioner that we
 
11:22    19       explore these things, I would like us not to get
 
11:22    20       into a Topsail situation or the P2000 bond
 
11:22    21       restriction.
 
11:23    22            By action today, if we don't put a place
 
11:23    23       card in, or if we don't do something, would we
 
11:23    24       be putting ourselves into that situation?
 
11:23    25            MS. WETHERELL:  No, sir.  I think the
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11:23     1       difference is is that -- as I remember that
 
11:23     2       Cabinet meeting several years back, the issue
 
11:23     3       was when we purchased Point Washington, and the
 
11:23     4       feeling of the Trustees was that we would try to
 
11:23     5       figure out how to surplus certain lands.  There
 
11:23     6       was a contingency --
 
11:23     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Right --
 
11:23     8            MS. WETHERELL:  -- of County people.
 
11:23     9            The difference then and now is that then we
 
11:23    10       did not have statutory authority to surplus
 
11:23    11       under the P2000 program.  And it took us two
 
11:23    12       legislative sessions to get the statutory
 
11:23    13       authority to surplus these lands.
 
11:23    14            The second difference is that you appointed
 
11:23    15       a Commission to develop a plan for how this
 
11:23    16       surplus land would be used, and they deliberated
 
11:23    17       for several years.
 
11:23    18            So the difference here is that if you
 
11:23    19       direct us to -- and we will -- we would anyway
 
11:24    20       consider it -- but if you direct us to work with
 
11:24    21       the County to try to figure out if it's
 
11:24    22       appropriate to surplus, then the staff would
 
11:24    23       work with the County.  And --
 
11:24    24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So we --
 
         25            MS. WETHERELL:  -- we have --
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11:24     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- have the legislative
 
11:24     2       authority now --
 
          3            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.
 
11:24     4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- and we --
 
11:24     5            MS. WETHERELL:  And we didn't then.
 
11:24     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- don't have to.  Okay.
 
11:24     7            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.
 
11:24     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So we can consider the
 
11:24     9       staff and the Commissioner's request.
 
         10            MS. WETHERELL:  Yes, sir.
 
11:24    11            So I would recommend that we just proceed
 
11:24    12       with this acquisition, and you -- you direct us
 
11:24    13       in good faith to work with the County to see if
 
11:24    14       there is any appropriate -- and we would bring
 
11:24    15       that back to you.
 
11:24    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, it seems to me that
 
         17       it makes sense when we're taking the large
 
11:24    18       tracts, that we certainly look at recreation,
 
11:24    19       school, fire districts, you know, industrial
 
11:24    20       development.  As long as we're not -- you know,
 
11:24    21       we're on the fringes of the property or
 
11:24    22       something, and we're not destroying what is the
 
11:24    23       unique part of the property, we need to work
 
11:24    24       with -- we are taking some property off tax
 
11:24    25       roles.  So we need to be conscious of that to
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                                                              43
 
11:24     1       see how we can --
 
11:24     2            MS. WETHERELL:  Right.
 
11:24     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- be of assistance.
 
          4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And I think that's
 
11:24     5       all we're suggesting is we enter into
 
          6       discussions --
 
          7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
 
11:24     8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- and consider the
 
11:24     9       possibilities.
 
11:24    10            MS. WETHERELL:  Right.
 
11:24    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yeah.
 
11:25    12            MS. WETHERELL:  We'll bring you back that
 
11:25    13       for consideration.
 
11:25    14            Okay.
 
11:25    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
 
11:25    16            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor, I need to ask
 
11:25    17       Commissioner Adams:  In your statement, you said
 
11:25    18       that you all support this acquisition.
 
11:25    19            MS. ADAMS:  Totally.
 
11:25    20            TREASURER NELSON:  But you indicated that
 
11:25    21       you wanted us to direct the Department of
 
11:25    22       Environmental Protection to work with
 
11:25    23       Indian River County for the designation of
 
11:25    24       surplus land for recreational and industrial
 
11:25    25       use.
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                                                              44
 
11:25     1            MS. ADAMS:  Correct.
 
11:25     2            TREASURER NELSON:  Now, elucidate further
 
11:25     3       here.  Is it something that they don't want to
 
11:25     4       talk to Indian River County about the use of
 
11:25     5       surplus land, or what -- what's the situation --
 
11:25     6            MS. ADAMS:  No, sir.  Not at all.  We just
 
11:25     7       wanted to be up-front in this.  We -- we've --
 
11:25     8       you know, we've committed 26 million dollars of
 
11:25     9       our own money to environmentally sensitive lands
 
11:25    10       in Indian River County.  And we are buying
 
11:25    11       property on the east side of the Sebastian River
 
11:26    12       to protect what y'all are also protecting on the
 
11:26    13       west side.
 
11:26    14            Our commitment is there.  We've laid low,
 
11:26    15       we know how difficult this acquisition has been
 
11:26    16       and how hard staff has had to work over almost
 
11:26    17       ten years to put this together.  We have
 
11:26    18       supported it every step of the way.  And above
 
11:26    19       everything, we want to see it acquired.
 
11:26    20            Secondly, we'd like to try to be able to
 
11:26    21       take advantage of some of those portions that
 
11:26    22       might not be, as the Governor said, as
 
11:26    23       environmentally sensitive, but part of the
 
11:26    24       larger tract that would provide additional
 
11:26    25       recreational opportunities for Indian River
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                                                              45
 
11:26     1       County residents, as well as -- as supporting
 
11:26     2       the -- the node that we have taken some of the
 
11:26     3       environmentally sensitive property out of to
 
11:26     4       support this acquisition.
 
11:26     5            Did I answer your question at all?
 
11:26     6            TREASURER NELSON:  Well, is there any
 
11:26     7       reason, Madam Secretary, that you all wouldn't
 
11:26     8       be working with them on this surplus land?
 
11:26     9            MS. WETHERELL:  No, sir.
 
11:26    10            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.
 
11:26    11            MS. ADAMS:  That's fine.
 
11:26    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Okay.  There's a motion
 
11:26    13       and a second.
 
11:27    14            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:27    15            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 5 is an option
 
11:27    16       agreement for Paynes Creek Recreation and Park
 
11:27    17       Additions Project.
 
11:27    18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:27    19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:27    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:27    21            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:27    22            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 6 is an option
 
11:27    23       agreement for the Goldhead Branch Recreation and
 
11:27    24       Parks Additions Project.
 
11:27    25            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
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11:27     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:27     2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:27     3            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:27     4            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 7 is a purchase
 
11:27     5       agreement for Florida Atlantic University.
 
11:27     6            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:27     7            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  And second.
 
11:27     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:27     9            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:27    10            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 8 is a release of
 
11:27    11       funds for an undivided interest in Pumpkin Hill
 
11:27    12       CARL project from St. Johns River Water
 
11:27    13       Management District.
 
11:27    14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:27    15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:27    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:27    17            Without objection, that's approved.
 
11:27    18            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 9 is an acquisition
 
11:27    19       agreement with St. Johns River Water Management
 
11:27    20       District for the Etoniah Creek/Cross Florida
 
11:27    21       Greenway CARL Project.
 
11:28    22            And Henry Dean would like to speak briefly.
 
11:28    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:28    24            MR. DEAN:  Good morning.
 
11:28    25            I done got runned over Saturday by a bull
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11:28     1       gator, so I'm a little lame this morning.
 
11:28     2            For those of you who might know me, I
 
11:28     3       actually had some knee surgery two weeks ago,
 
11:28     4       and I'm well on the road to recuperation.
 
          5            TREASURER NELSON:  Good.
 
11:28     6            MR. DEAN:  So it'll be fine in a week or
 
11:28     7       two.
 
11:28     8            Governor, members of the Cabinet, we at the
 
11:28     9       St. Johns District are extremely excited about
 
11:28    10       moving forward with a joint agreement with you,
 
11:28    11       the Trustees, and your excellent staff where we,
 
11:28    12       through our procedures, acquire parcels within
 
11:28    13       this 60,000 acre CARL project.
 
11:28    14            We think in times when government, all of
 
11:28    15       us, are being sort of bashed for different
 
11:28    16       reasons, when we can point to a partnership
 
11:28    17       between the Trustees, the Water Management
 
11:29    18       District, the Nature Conservancy, and see it
 
11:29    19       working for a change, I think it certainly
 
11:29    20       should reflect well on you, with your
 
11:29    21       leadership, and your staff.
 
11:29    22            And I want to compliment Ginger,
 
         23       Pete Mallison, and Ed Kuester in particular.
 
11:29    24            And also on the previous item, the Coraci
 
11:29    25       tract, that also was in our district, the two
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11:29     1       parcels, in Indian River and Volusia County.
 
11:29     2       And remind everyone that Indian River County,
 
11:29     3       Brevard County, and Volusia County have all
 
11:29     4       served as local partners with you and us in
 
11:29     5       approving bonds and referendums for acquisition.
 
11:29     6            So when we -- in times when we have a lot
 
11:29     7       of controversy on other issues, it's nice to
 
11:29     8       pause, I think, and recognize the partnership of
 
11:29     9       these counties, the commissioners, your staff,
 
11:29    10       and the nature conservancy in saving part of
 
11:29    11       Florida for future generations.
 
11:30    12            So I just want to encourage you to approve
 
11:30    13       this item, and again compliment your excellent
 
11:30    14       staff for their leadership.
 
11:30    15            And be happy to answer any questions,
 
11:30    16       Governor.
 
11:30    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
11:30    18            Thank you very much.
 
11:30    19            That's been moved and seconded.
 
11:30    20            So without objection, it is adopted.
 
11:30    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Governor, I
 
11:30    22       don't think we did move it, but I will move it.
 
11:30    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  It is moved
 
11:30    24       and --
 
11:30    25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
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          1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
 
11:30     2            Without objection, it's done.
 
11:30     3            MS. WETHERELL:  All right.  Item 10, we're
 
11:30     4       recommending deferral.
 
11:30     5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion to
 
11:30     6       defer.
 
11:30     7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:30     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded on a
 
11:30     9       motion to defer.
 
11:30    10            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:30    11            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 11 is a modification
 
11:30    12       of a submerged land lease.  And we have two
 
         13       speakers, Ken Oertel; and the applicant,
 
11:30    14       Eugene Steffan.
 
11:30    15            MR. OERTEL:  Governor, members of the
 
11:30    16       Cabinet, I'm Ken Oertel, attorney in
 
11:31    17       Tallahassee.  And I'm here on behalf of the
 
11:31    18       applicant, Palm Grove Marina.
 
11:31    19       Mr. Eugene Steffan is here with me.  He's the
 
11:31    20       owner of the marina.
 
         21            I only wish to address one item on this,
 
11:31    22       and that's to ask for some sympathy from the
 
11:31    23       Governor and the Cabinet on the question of the
 
11:31    24       penalty.  The staff has requested a penalty of
 
11:31    25       $17,500 here for what was -- unquestionably was
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11:31     1       a violation of the lease.
 
11:31     2            We genuinely regret the violation
 
11:31     3       occurred.  But we wish to point out that it was
 
11:31     4       not intentionally violated.  And the
 
11:31     5       circumstances of this I think stem from a
 
11:31     6       misunderstanding my client had with where the
 
11:31     7       boundaries of the leased area were.  He
 
11:31     8       understands now that a violation was committed.
 
11:31     9            But in his defense, I would say that his
 
11:31    10       lease is based upon not a square foot basis, but
 
11:31    11       a gross revenue basis.  And when he berthed the
 
11:31    12       ship outside the exact boundaries of the lease,
 
11:32    13       he immediately paid the State the percentage
 
11:32    14       that he was required to from his gross
 
11:32    15       revenues.
 
11:32    16            So the State has always been paid on this
 
11:32    17       lease.  This is not a situation where a lease --
 
11:32    18       owner of a submerged land lease went outside the
 
11:32    19       boundaries of his lease and pocketed the money
 
11:32    20       from the extra ship he was berthing there.  This
 
11:32    21       was always done out in the open.
 
11:32    22            And the staff at the local level I don't
 
11:32    23       believe considered this to be a very serious
 
11:32    24       matter.  He was told to apply for an amendment
 
11:32    25       to the lease within a particular period of time,
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11:32     1       and he did so.
 
11:32     2            When this was sent up here from the local
 
11:32     3       office, a penalty of $5,000 was recommended.
 
11:32     4       Now the penalty is $17,500.  And I would like to
 
11:32     5       propose that we would offer to pay $10,000 to
 
11:32     6       the State as a compromise of this.  We don't
 
11:32     7       want to make a big issue over it, but we would
 
11:32     8       like to get a sympathetic ear.
 
11:33     9            And I know Mr. Steffan would like to
 
11:33    10       address you also.
 
11:33    11            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I have a
 
11:33    12       question, Governor.
 
11:33    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
 
11:33    14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I think I'd
 
11:33    15       like to ask it of you, sir.
 
11:33    16            My staff advises me that you plan on --
 
11:33    17       that this particular vessel now is moving on
 
11:33    18       this month?
 
11:33    19            MR. OERTEL:  Yes, sir.
 
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Is that
 
         21       correct?
 
11:33    22            MR. OERTEL:  That's correct, sir.
 
11:33    23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  So really
 
11:33    24       you do not need this additional land right now
 
11:33    25       then.
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11:33     1            MR. OERTEL:  No.  He would like to amend
 
11:33     2       the lease, because there have been boats docked
 
11:33     3       at this outboard side of the area for -- off and
 
11:33     4       on for a long period of time.  This is the first
 
11:33     5       time it's been made an issue.
 
11:33     6            We've satisfied, you know, all the
 
11:33     7       requirements the staff has requested.  It's just
 
11:33     8       a question of the penalty.  We would like to
 
11:33     9       amend the lease, and always have wanted to.
 
11:33    10            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  What is the
 
11:33    11       size of this particular vessel that's there
 
11:33    12       now?
 
11:33    13            MR. OERTEL:  The vessel is 167 feet
 
11:33    14       I believe.
 
11:33    15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  What's the
 
11:33    16       size of the other vessels that are literally in
 
11:33    17       the --
 
11:33    18            MR. OERTEL:  -- in the marina space
 
11:33    19       itself?
 
         20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- in the
 
11:33    21       marina space.
 
         22            MR. OERTEL:  Up -- we would have to refer
 
         23       to the owners, I believe, who could answer that
 
11:33    24       better.
 
11:34    25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  We see a
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11:34     1       picture of it up here, it looks like it's -- the
 
11:34     2       gambling ship that's there now, looks like it's
 
11:34     3       about the size of this Capitol building,
 
11:34     4       compared to a little 12 foot, 14 foot boats that
 
11:34     5       are right there.
 
11:34     6            MR. OERTEL:  Well, this is a commercial
 
11:34     7       area.  In the channel, there are shrimp boats
 
11:34     8       and a large number of commercial vessels in the
 
11:34     9       entire channel there at the various berthings
 
11:34    10       and marinas all over the place.
 
11:34    11            MR. STEFFAN:  Governor and Cabinet members,
 
11:34    12       to address your question on the size of the
 
11:34    13       vessel and the dockage.  Our lineal dockage long
 
11:34    14       pier in that area is 167 feet, and so is the
 
11:34    15       ship that we currently have tied up there.
 
11:34    16            However, over a period of years, we have
 
11:34    17       had 55 foot, 100 foot, 80 foot vessels tied up
 
11:34    18       there as a regular course of business to the
 
11:34    19       dock system.  And we have never had any
 
11:35    20       objection from the DEP prior to four years ago.
 
11:35    21            If I may, I'm here today to request your
 
11:35    22       consideration of the fine being imposed on us by
 
11:35    23       the DEP.  In 1983, you know, when I first
 
11:35    24       obtained the submerged land lease, it was my
 
11:35    25       understanding that the dockage structures were
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11:35     1       to be within the confines of the lease, not the
 
11:35     2       boats tied up to those.
 
11:35     3            Only in '91 when I leased it to this
 
11:35     4       particular ship, which was on a first come,
 
11:35     5       first serve basis, did I become aware that the
 
11:35     6       DEP was interpreting this the column under the
 
11:35     7       boats.  And it was at that time that I
 
11:35     8       immediately started working to rectify the
 
11:35     9       situation.
 
11:35    10            To me, this was a technicality of
 
11:35    11       interpretation.  All these years, since our
 
11:35    12       docks first were installed, I have always paid
 
11:36    13       the submerged land lease fees to the State based
 
11:36    14       on if there were boats docked for that entire
 
11:36    15       lineal dockage.
 
11:36    16            Not one penny has been not paid to the
 
11:36    17       State.  This is not an expansion of the marina,
 
11:36    18       it is just redefining the column of water that
 
11:36    19       has been used traditionally since 19--
 
11:36    20       roughly --83.
 
11:36    21            My consultants and I have diligently worked
 
11:36    22       on resolving this technicality and problem.  And
 
11:36    23       four years later, we're now here in front of the
 
11:36    24       Governor and the Cabinet.
 
11:36    25            I'm sorry that we had technically violated
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11:36     1       the DE-- the intent.  And there was no intention
 
11:36     2       of any violation.  I'm here to ask that you
 
11:36     3       consider this fine, and eliminate it or reduce
 
11:36     4       it, as Mr. Oertel has previously requested.
 
11:36     5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor --
 
11:36     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
 
11:36     7            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- if I
 
11:36     8       could maybe ask the staff.  I guess I'm kind of
 
11:36     9       concerned.
 
11:36    10            What I'm hearing from Mr. Oertel and from
 
11:37    11       the -- the owner of the marina here is that this
 
11:37    12       was a minor technical violation that somehow or
 
11:37    13       other got up here before the Cabinet almost
 
11:37    14       four years to the day after he was notified of
 
11:37    15       the violation.
 
11:37    16            My staff advises me that your office
 
11:37    17       believes that this is a flagrant violation of
 
11:37    18       the lease.
 
11:37    19            Now, flagrant violation and this little
 
11:37    20       mistake seem to be, you know, quite a distance
 
11:37    21       apart.  Maybe you can advise us as to whether
 
11:37    22       this is really technical, and we're just here
 
11:37    23       for a minor informality that Mr. Oertel
 
11:37    24       basically is telling us, or whether this thing
 
11:37    25       is pretty damn serious.
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11:37     1            MR. STEFFAN:  Is the question --
 
          2            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I'm not --
 
11:37     3       I'm asking the office.
 
11:37     4            MR. CRAFT:  Jeremy Craft with DEP.
 
11:37     5            I don't think we've characterized it as
 
11:37     6       either.  Leases, however, do come with surveys,
 
11:37     7       boundary surveys.  So that the boundary of the
 
11:37     8       lease is well-known.  Leasing is based on
 
11:38     9       preempted area.  I think that is well-known.
 
11:38    10            We did notify Mr. Steffan that his
 
11:38    11       intention of putting a ship at the end of the
 
11:38    12       dock would be a violation of the lease.
 
11:38    13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  And what
 
11:38    14       year was that, sir?
 
11:38    15            MR. CRAFT:  That was in 1991.
 
11:38    16            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.  And
 
11:38    17       what did he do?
 
11:38    18            MR. CRAFT:  Proceeded with the lease, but
 
11:38    19       he did make an application to amend his -- or he
 
11:38    20       proceeded with docking the ship.  But he did
 
11:38    21       make an application to amend his lease that
 
11:38    22       the --
 
11:38    23            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  When did he
 
11:38    24       do that?
 
11:38    25            MR. CRAFT:  That was in early '92.
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          1            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.
 
11:38     2       The -- why are we here three years later?  Why
 
11:38     3       wasn't this thing resolved in '92?
 
11:38     4            Maybe he's right, maybe it is a
 
11:38     5       technicality.
 
11:38     6            MR. CRAFT:  It should have been resolved in
 
11:38     7       '92.  I don't think either the Department or
 
11:38     8       Mr. Steffan viewed this as a priority.  A
 
11:38     9       temporary use agreement was provided to him to
 
11:38    10       allow him to continue the operation pending
 
11:38    11       completion of the application to modify the
 
11:38    12       lease and the period of time, and that
 
11:39    13       modification just drug on.
 
11:39    14            TREASURER NELSON:  Could I ask --
 
11:39    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, there's got to be
 
11:39    16       some reason it started off -- you know, I see
 
11:39    17       that you did notify Mr. Steffan before he
 
11:39    18       actually docked the ship that there was a
 
11:39    19       violation.  He docked the ship, then he entered
 
11:39    20       into -- there was a temporary use thing.
 
11:39    21            Why are you asking for this kind of fine?
 
11:39    22       I mean, you weren't going to do that the first
 
11:39    23       day, were you, in '91?
 
11:39    24            MR. CRAFT:  There is a policy adopted by
 
11:39    25       the Governor and Cabinet on instituting fines.
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11:39     1       And what we have provided is the fine based on
 
11:39     2       that policy.  It does not incorporate in that
 
11:39     3       fine consideration anything dealing with time
 
11:39     4       delays.  We eliminated any of that time
 
11:39     5       consideration.  This is just the base fine based
 
11:39     6       on use of State-owned lands without a lease.
 
11:39     7            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --
 
11:39     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
 
11:39     9            MR. CRAFT:  And you do have the discretion
 
11:40    10       to alter it the way Mr. Oertel has suggested.
 
11:40    11            TREASURER NELSON:  I want to find out what
 
11:40    12       our government did and when they did it.
 
11:40    13            As I understand, in December '91, a site
 
11:40    14       inspection revealed that the ship was there.
 
11:40    15       And then a year later, a temporary use agreement
 
11:40    16       was issued for an additional one-year mooring of
 
11:40    17       the cruise ship; is that correct?
 
11:40    18            MR. CRAFT:  Yes, sir.
 
11:40    19            TREASURER NELSON:  Does that government
 
11:40    20       action not imply acceptance of the mooring of
 
11:40    21       the ship?
 
11:40    22            MR. CRAFT:  It implies that we think an
 
11:40    23       amendment of the lease will be an appropriate
 
11:40    24       action for the State that --
 
11:40    25            TREASURER NELSON:  Did DEP penalize him at
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11:40     1       the time?
 
11:40     2            MR. CRAFT:  No, sir.
 
11:40     3            TREASURER NELSON:  It sure seems clear to
 
11:40     4       me --
 
11:40     5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Could I back up a
 
11:40     6       little further and follow that line of
 
11:41     7       questioning?
 
11:41     8            Let's assume for just a minute -- and
 
11:41     9       I think it needs to be noted that we're talking
 
11:41    10       about an aquatic preserve here, which has
 
11:41    11       special action taken by the Legislature as far
 
11:41    12       back as 1975 to protect any water that's in that
 
11:41    13       status.
 
11:41    14            If there had never been the ship placed at
 
11:41    15       the end of that dock, and the gentleman had come
 
11:41    16       forward and asked for a special permit in order
 
11:41    17       to do that, recognizing that we're talking about
 
11:41    18       a ship with I think a 6 foot draft, which
 
11:41    19       clearly is close to or does drag bottom, or at
 
11:41    20       least creates a great deal of turbidity in an
 
11:41    21       aquatic preserve, would we have issued such a
 
11:41    22       special permit?
 
11:41    23            And I'm going to go further and surmise
 
11:41    24       that we would by virtue of the fact that we are
 
11:41    25       here today, and part of this recommendation is
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11:41     1       to now issue that special permit.
 
11:41     2            And I guess my last question, and the big
 
11:41     3       one is:  Why in an aquatic preserve would we do
 
11:41     4       that?
 
11:42     5            Now, let's back up again and say the ship
 
11:42     6       was there.  As Commissioner Nelson mentioned, we
 
11:42     7       pointed out that the ship was there, then issued
 
11:42     8       an extension of one year; are now back today to
 
11:42     9       request full permit, special permit, that in the
 
11:42    10       interim we're recommending a fine.
 
11:42    11            I'm real confused.  It is either right or
 
11:42    12       it's wrong.  And I think what we're doing here
 
11:42    13       today is saying it's both right and wrong.
 
11:42    14            MR. CRAFT:  Several factors there.  I think
 
11:42    15       we would have allowed prospective use of the
 
11:42    16       facility had he asked for it before putting the
 
11:42    17       ship there.
 
11:42    18            I think in that consideration though, we
 
11:42    19       would have adopted some management practices
 
11:42    20       such as the use of tugboats for moving the ship
 
11:42    21       in and out.
 
11:42    22            When he came to the site with the ship,
 
11:42    23       there was considerable problems with it, as you
 
11:43    24       mentioned, prop scarring, tearing up the bottom,
 
11:43    25       that resulted in some enforcement action by the
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11:43     1       old DER in violation of their permit, and
 
11:43     2       because of the turbidity being stirred up.
 
11:43     3       There was a period of time in which that was
 
11:43     4       worked out and best management practices were
 
11:43     5       adopted.  That would have been done before the
 
11:43     6       fact had he applied before the fact.
 
11:43     7            There's also the issue of some punitive
 
11:43     8       penalty on this.  The fact that he had a written
 
11:43     9       notice both in the form of the lease, and in the
 
11:43    10       form of the letter we sent him notifying him it
 
11:43    11       would be a violation.
 
11:43    12            I think we have some concern that an
 
11:43    13       individual who intentionally goes out and uses
 
11:43    14       property over which he has no authority for that
 
11:43    15       use should be hit with some sort of penalty.
 
11:44    16            And is -- are we sending mixed messages?  I
 
11:44    17       don't think so.  I think we're saying, here's a
 
11:44    18       penalty for doing it outside the setup that we
 
11:44    19       have, the procedures we have.  But it is a use
 
11:44    20       that we otherwise would have approved.
 
11:44    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is it -- if I can
 
11:44    22       continue, Governor.
 
11:44    23            Let's stick with the aquatic preserve
 
11:44    24       issue.  Is this a relatively unusual exemption
 
11:44    25       for an aquatic preserve situation to allow a
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11:44     1       boat of this magnitude, with this kind of draft,
 
11:44     2       even with special conditions placed upon it,
 
11:44     3       to -- to be special permitted?
 
11:44     4            MR. CRAFT:  It's not an exemption.  But I
 
11:44     5       don't think it's unusual to allow a boat this
 
11:44     6       close to a navigation channel if there are
 
11:44     7       appropriate controls put on it to have a use.
 
11:44     8       We would tend to work with applicants regardless
 
11:44     9       of where they are to put uses that are
 
11:45    10       acceptable environmentally into place.
 
11:45    11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I mean, you
 
11:45    12       understand where I'm coming from.
 
11:45    13            MR. CRAFT:  I think so.
 
11:45    14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  We're arguing today
 
11:45    15       about five or ten thousand dollars in fine.  I'm
 
11:45    16       going all the way back -- and I think others are
 
11:45    17       going all the way back -- to determine if a
 
11:45    18       special permit in this particular situation is
 
11:45    19       or was ever appropriate in the first place.
 
11:45    20            Now, that helps me by telling me that it is
 
11:45    21       not a rarity in order to grant such a special
 
11:45    22       permit with special consideration.  But the
 
11:45    23       mixed -- mixed message issue that you alluded to
 
11:45    24       is still a big one.
 
11:45    25            MS. WETHERELL:  The -- if I can just -- a
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11:45     1       little bit further on the aquatic preserve
 
11:45     2       point.
 
11:45     3            Aquatic preserves, you know, are managed
 
11:45     4       under a particular rule.  And, you know, if
 
11:45     5       there is any activity proposed which does not
 
11:45     6       have a negative environmental impact, we
 
11:45     7       would -- we would be prohibited from disallowing
 
11:46     8       that.
 
11:46     9            So, you know, in this case, as I think
 
11:46    10       Jeremy Craft has pointed out, this is not
 
11:46    11       unusual in that the placement of this particular
 
11:46    12       vessel, if it is -- if you use best management
 
11:46    13       practices, you moor it a certain way, you have
 
11:46    14       it towed, you know, there is not a negative
 
11:46    15       environmental impact.
 
11:46    16            And so it's not unusual that we do this in
 
11:46    17       other aquatic preserves --
 
         18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Is your --
 
11:46    19            MS. WETHERELL:  -- as long as you have
 
11:46    20       those best management practices.
 
11:46    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'm sorry.
 
11:46    22            Is your recommendation regarding just the
 
11:46    23       reintroduction of this particular vessel, or is
 
11:46    24       this alluding to any particular vessel with any
 
11:46    25       particular draft relative to bottom?
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11:46     1            MS. WETHERELL:  It would have a certain
 
11:46     2       draft.
 
11:46     3            MR. CRAFT:  Yeah.
 
          4            MS. WETHERELL:  But it could be any vessel
 
11:46     5       that had to meet the same conditions, and we'd
 
11:46     6       have those --
 
11:46     7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So, in other words,
 
11:46     8       the special --
 
11:46     9            MS. WETHERELL:  The conditions would --
 
11:46    10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- the special
 
11:46    11       conditions are relative to draft, and not a
 
11:46    12       particular vessel.
 
11:46    13            MS. WETHERELL:  That's -- not with this --
 
         14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Any vessel --
 
11:46    15            MS. WETHERELL:  -- particular cruise ship.
 
         16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Any vessel --
 
11:46    17            MS. WETHERELL:  No.  It's any vessel --
 
         18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- that meets those
 
         19       particular --
 
         20            MS. WETHERELL:  -- that has to meet
 
11:46    21       these --
 
11:46    22            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- draft --
 
11:46    23            MS. WETHERELL:  That's correct.
 
11:46    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- conditions.
 
11:46    25            MS. WETHERELL:  That's correct.
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11:47     1            TREASURER NELSON:  Governor --
 
11:47     2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
 
11:47     3            TREASURER NELSON:  -- as I see it, there
 
11:47     4       are two issues here, Madam Secretary, and you
 
11:47     5       tell me if this is correct.
 
11:47     6            Number one, we have the issue on the fines
 
11:47     7       of past action.
 
11:47     8            MS. WETHERELL:  Uh-hum.
 
11:47     9            TREASURER NELSON:  And then we have the
 
11:47    10       issue as to the future use of this property.
 
11:47    11       Now, on the -- on the basis of what I've heard
 
11:47    12       here, it sounds like that the government is at
 
11:47    13       least partially culpable in that the temporary
 
11:47    14       use permit was given here and so forth.
 
11:47    15            With regard to the second issue on future
 
11:47    16       use, how much of a commercial area of
 
11:47    17       activity -- I notice there are marinas all up
 
11:47    18       and down here -- this Matanzas-Estero Pass,
 
11:47    19       there's a shrimp boat fleet, 50 to 60 foot
 
11:47    20       boats, that is right down the way.
 
11:47    21            So how does -- what is your recommendation
 
11:48    22       with regard to the future use of this facility?
 
11:48    23            MS. WETHERELL:  Well, you know, given the
 
11:48    24       type of activity that's in that area, and the
 
11:48    25       resources, the natural resources in that area,
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11:48     1       I think that the activity is appropriate given
 
11:48     2       that they follow these best management
 
11:48     3       practices.
 
11:48     4            So, you know, I think the activity is
 
11:48     5       compatible with what's there, you know, that's
 
11:48     6       why we've recommended this the way we have.
 
11:48     7            In terms of the fine and the past activity,
 
11:48     8       we're basing the fine on a formula that we're
 
11:48     9       instructed to use.  It does not preclude the
 
11:48    10       Cabinet, and hasn't in the past, from using your
 
11:48    11       discretion to decide what you think is a better
 
11:48    12       balance.
 
11:48    13            But in this case, weighing what we thought
 
11:48    14       was in some cases less than a cooperative
 
11:48    15       attitude, we felt that this was a fair fee.  But
 
11:48    16       we -- we certainly would, you know, not object
 
11:48    17       if you feel otherwise to do something different.
 
11:49    18            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor, if
 
11:49    19       I can maybe --
 
11:49    20            Are you finished, Bill?
 
11:49    21            TREASURER NELSON:  I just wanted to ask one
 
11:49    22       follow-up question.
 
11:49    23            If you could, Madam Secretary, could you
 
11:49    24       educate me as to how you can consider in an
 
11:49    25       aquatic preserve a commercial activity that is
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11:49     1       apparently present here all up and down this
 
11:49     2       particular pass.
 
11:49     3            MS. WETHERELL:  That's certainly not
 
11:49     4       unusual around the state.  And aquatic
 
11:49     5       preserves, as you probably know, we have 42,
 
11:49     6       43, '4 aquatic preserves in the state.
 
11:49     7            Some of them are very pristine and have
 
11:49     8       very little activity on them, have a lot of
 
11:49     9       natural resource value.
 
11:49    10            Others are commercial -- I could name a
 
11:49    11       few, but I'd probably make some people upset --
 
11:49    12       that are less than pristine and are highly
 
11:49    13       commercialized.  And so aquatic preserves vary
 
11:49    14       greatly around the state.
 
11:49    15            And where they are more commercial and less
 
11:49    16       natural resource value, that's where you
 
11:50    17       typically, you know, have seen in the past a
 
11:50    18       high degree of development.  And it has become a
 
11:50    19       commercial recreational area.
 
11:50    20            And in those areas where there's not
 
11:50    21       those -- a lot of sea grass and other values, we
 
11:50    22       find it compatible.
 
11:50    23            TREASURER NELSON:  Thank you.
 
11:50    24            MS. WETHERELL:  The rules provide for that.
 
11:50    25            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
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11:50     1       just expanding on what Commissioner Nelson
 
11:50     2       stated.  We do have two issues before us.  Why
 
11:50     3       do we just not bifurcate them and vote on maybe
 
11:50     4       possibly -- we can just vote on each of the two
 
11:50     5       at a time.  First vote on the fine, and then
 
11:50     6       vote on whether or not we want to give them the
 
11:50     7       expansion or not.
 
11:50     8            So not to only have them lumped in one,
 
11:50     9       lump them in two.  I would suggest that,
 
11:50    10       Governor.  And I --
 
11:50    11            Therefore, I would make the motion that we
 
11:50    12       bifurcate and we deal with the issue of the fine
 
11:50    13       first, and I would move that we accept staff
 
11:50    14       recommendation on the fine.
 
11:50    15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:50    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, I think we could
 
11:50    17       bifurcate, that's a legitimate motion.  But I
 
11:51    18       don't think you can bifurcate and approve all at
 
11:51    19       the same time.
 
11:51    20            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Okay.  I
 
11:51    21       move we bifurcate.
 
11:51    22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Break it up a little bit.
 
11:51    23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll second.
 
11:51    24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It'll take more than one
 
11:51    25       bifurcation --
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11:51     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll bifurcate my
 
11:51     2       second.
 
11:51     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Motion and
 
11:51     4       second on splitting the issues.
 
11:51     5            Without objection, that's passed.
 
          6            Now.
 
11:51     7            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  My second
 
11:51     8       motion is, Governor, the staff recommendation on
 
11:51     9       the -- on the fine.
 
11:51    10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And I will second
 
11:51    11       that, Governor.
 
11:51    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  That's been
 
11:51    13       moved and seconded.
 
11:51    14            Yes, sir.
 
11:51    15            TREASURER NELSON:  On discussion, I usually
 
11:51    16       find myself approving with my brother here.  But
 
11:51    17       I just can't see if they offered him this
 
11:51    18       temporary use permit that he should have a
 
11:51    19       $17,000 fine.  $17,500.
 
11:51    20            It just seems to me that there's too much
 
11:51    21       government condescension to -- to this
 
11:51    22       activity.  And to impose a full fine like that
 
11:51    23       seems to me to be very punitive.
 
11:51    24            So I would offer an amendment to the motion
 
11:52    25       that we eliminate the fine.
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11:52     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there a second?
 
11:52     2            Would you like to offer another motion?
 
11:52     3            TREASURER NELSON:  That --
 
11:52     4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Bifurcated or
 
11:52     5       otherwise.
 
11:52     6            TREASURER NELSON:  That we bifurcate the
 
11:52     7       fine.
 
11:52     8            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, I'll --
 
11:52     9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes.
 
11:52    10            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- I'll venture forth
 
11:52    11       with an amendment for a $10,000 fine.
 
11:52    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:52    13            I have not heard a second.
 
11:52    14            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Okay.
 
11:52    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  So we're -- we're at the
 
11:52    16       motion --
 
11:52    17            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Governor,
 
11:52    18       what concerns me -- and I mean, I'll probably
 
11:52    19       bring it up later, too.
 
11:52    20            But what concerns -- my staff tells me that
 
11:52    21       the tone of the Department was a little
 
11:52    22       different during staff meeting -- or during the
 
11:52    23       Cabinet aides meeting last week than it is
 
11:52    24       today.
 
11:52    25            And my staff notes reflect something
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11:52     1       entirely different than what's being said today
 
11:52     2       by the Department.  So, I mean, I really don't
 
11:53     3       know.  I mean, if -- if what I'm hearing here
 
11:53     4       today, I would probably second the Secretary of
 
11:53     5       State's motion.
 
11:53     6            But what I see here in my notes and what's
 
11:53     7       occurred in four year delays, and most of them
 
11:53     8       being on the applicant, who's not an
 
11:53     9       unsophisticated businessman at all, I -- I don't
 
11:53    10       know.  I think I -- I think the staff has
 
11:53    11       analyzed this very well.  And I think we should
 
11:53    12       go along with their recommendation of it.
 
11:53    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I think also,
 
11:53    14       Governor, I want to explain the reason for my
 
11:53    15       second.
 
11:53    16            I've examined this from the inside out, as
 
11:53    17       I know all the members of the State Board have.
 
11:53    18       And I came in with a little different feeling on
 
11:53    19       this this morning actually.
 
11:53    20            I was a little bit more concerned about the
 
11:53    21       actual special permit even being granted with an
 
11:53    22       extension in the first place, or ever being
 
11:53    23       granted in the future.  I've somewhat changed my
 
11:53    24       position on that based on comments made by the
 
11:53    25       Secretary and members of staff today.
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11:53     1            But I have not changed my position on
 
11:53     2       the -- the issuance of the fine.  Again, I
 
11:54     3       allude to the fact that this was an aquatic
 
11:54     4       preserve.  I wish that things had gone
 
11:54     5       differently at the beginning of this process.
 
11:54     6       They did not.
 
11:54     7            But, nevertheless, there was a very large
 
11:54     8       ship going in and out of a very sensitive piece
 
11:54     9       of aquatic preserve, no doubt doing what may be
 
11:54    10       permanent harm to -- to that particular part of
 
11:54    11       that aquatic preserve.
 
11:54    12            And again, we're really arguing over
 
11:54    13       $10,000, give or take.  And I really feel
 
11:54    14       strongly that if the second part of this vote
 
11:54    15       goes the way it might, that this $24,216, which
 
11:54    16       I still feel is appropriate, will be somewhat
 
11:54    17       quickly reclaimed based on the special permit
 
11:54    18       and the ability with certain conditions to dock
 
11:54    19       other boats at the end of that particular pier.
 
11:54    20            And I think the difference in the fine from
 
11:54    21       10,000 to 24,000 can be reclaimed rather
 
11:54    22       quickly.
 
11:54    23            So I -- I've somewhat changed my position
 
11:55    24       on this, and I think the 24,000 is -- is most
 
11:55    25       appropriate, even regardless of the
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11:55     1       circumstances they got in.
 
11:55     2            MS. WETHERELL:  Commissioner, the -- the
 
11:55     3       lease fee is the 24,000, the fine is 17,000.
 
11:55     4            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'm sorry.
 
11:55     5       Seventeen.
 
11:55     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  We're without
 
11:55     7       a second on the $10,000 fine, we're back to
 
11:55     8       $17,000.
 
11:55     9            So many as favor that, signify by saying
 
11:55    10       aye.
 
11:55    11            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Aye.
 
11:55    12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Aye.
 
         13            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Aye.
 
11:55    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed, no.
 
11:55    15            TREASURER NELSON:  No.
 
11:55    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Aye's have it.
 
11:55    17            TREASURER NELSON:  Now, the second part of
 
11:55    18       the bifurcation.
 
11:55    19            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I move we
 
11:55    20       defer the second part of the bifurcation,
 
11:55    21       Governor, until there's more information as a
 
11:55    22       aquatic preserve.
 
11:55    23            And since this gentleman in a month is not
 
11:55    24       going to have this vessel here anyway, I think
 
11:55    25       we'll have plenty of time to look at it,
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11:55     1       determine whether or not this issue should,
 
11:55     2       in fact, be brought before us back then.
 
11:55     3            I feel like when someone goes into the
 
11:55     4       aquatic preserve, that everything should happen
 
11:56     5       very quickly.  It did not in this case.  I think
 
11:56     6       we should have -- at least have an opportunity
 
11:56     7       to look at it.
 
11:56     8            I'm not saying that I'm going to vote no on
 
11:56     9       it, but I'd like to have more information on
 
11:56    10       it.  Because I'm not quite sure how they would
 
11:56    11       have voted back in 1991 and 1992.  We had a
 
11:56    12       totally --
 
11:56    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll --
 
         14            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  -- different
 
11:56    15       Cabinet back then.  And --
 
11:56    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I'll support the
 
11:56    17       motion for deferral, Governor, on issue 2.
 
11:56    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded on the
 
11:56    19       motion --
 
11:56    20            MS. WETHERELL:  Governor, could we ask for
 
11:56    21       deferral till January?  The Cabinet meeting is
 
11:56    22       just absolutely packed, our agenda the next
 
11:56    23       time, and --
 
11:56    24            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  March, April
 
11:56    25       is fine with me.
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11:56     1            TREASURER NELSON:  And, Governor, as we
 
11:56     2       have discussion on this issue, I would like for
 
11:56     3       you all to satisfy us with a detailed
 
11:56     4       understanding of what is the commercial
 
11:56     5       activity.
 
11:56     6            The largest ships that I see in there are
 
11:56     7       60 feet.  And so my inclination would not be to
 
11:56     8       approve 167 foot ship for the future.  But we
 
11:56     9       need your recommendations as to how this fits
 
11:57    10       with the existing commercial activity, and what
 
11:57    11       is the future potential damage to the
 
11:57    12       environment by such a large cruise ship.
 
11:57    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  We --
 
11:57    14            All right.  Without objection, the motion
 
11:57    15       to defer is approved.
 
11:57    16            MS. WETHERELL:  Item 12 is -- we're asking
 
11:57    17       for deferral.
 
11:57    18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
 
11:57    19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
 
11:57    20            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:57    21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded.
 
11:57    22            Without objection, motion to defer is
 
11:57    23       granted.
 
11:57    24            MS. WETHERELL:  Thank you.
 
         25
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          1            (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
 
          2       Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
 
          3                             *
 
          4
 
          5
 
          6
 
          7
 
          8
 
          9
 
         10
 
         11
 
         12
 
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         14
 
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         16
 
         17
 
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         21
 
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11:57     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Now we're at the
 
11:57     2       Marine Fisheries Commission.
 
11:58     3            DR. NELSON:  Good morning, Governor and
 
11:58     4       members of the Cabinet.
 
11:58     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good morning.
 
          6            DR. NELSON:  Briefly, before I begin the
 
11:58     7       agenda today, I would like to acknowledge that
 
11:58     8       we have a number of our commissioners here
 
11:58     9       present.
 
11:58    10            Our Chairman, Dr. Robert Marston; our
 
11:58    11       Vice-Chairman, Bob Woodward; Commissioner
 
11:58    12       Don Hansen; Barbara Barsh; Dr. Charles Kidd; and
 
         13       George McElvy here today.
 
11:58    14            Item A on the agenda are the minutes from
 
11:58    15       February 22nd, March, August, September, and
 
11:58    16       October meeting.
 
11:58    17            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Motion on
 
11:58    18       minutes.
 
11:58    19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:58    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:58    21            Without objection, that's approved.
 
         22            DR. NELSON:  We would ask permission to
 
11:58    23       withdraw Item B from the agenda.
 
11:58    24            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:58    25            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
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11:58     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:58     2            Without objection, motion is withdrawn.
 
11:58     3            DR. NELSON:  Item C on the agenda are a --
 
11:58     4       is a package of rules which have been repealed
 
11:58     5       in conjunction with the Governor's program to
 
11:58     6       look at reducing unnecessary and -- rules that
 
11:58     7       we don't necessarily need any more.  So we --
 
11:58     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  How many do you have
 
11:58     9       today?
 
         10            What do you want to do on it today, just
 
11:58    11       propose this Item C?
 
11:58    12            DR. NELSON:  This would be Item C.  I'd
 
11:58    13       just recommend approval of these rules.
 
11:58    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
11:59    15            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:59    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:59    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:59    18            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:59    19            DR. NELSON:  We have a number of items
 
11:59    20       coming up.  There are I think redfish,
 
11:59    21       sea trout, and shrimping issues.  There are some
 
11:59    22       individuals who wish to speak.
 
11:59    23            But item D is the king mackerel -
 
11:59    24       Gulf-Atlantic Fishery.  We have no one here who
 
11:59    25       desires to speak on that issue.
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11:59     1            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:59     2            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
11:59     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:59     4            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:59     5            DR. NELSON:  Item E, a continuation of our
 
11:59     6       permitting procedures in conjunction with the
 
11:59     7       Federal Government on the reef fish.
 
11:59     8            Likewise, there is no one here who would
 
11:59     9       like to speak on that issue.
 
11:59    10            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Move approval.
 
11:59    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and --
 
11:59    12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
11:59    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- seconded -- and
 
11:59    14       seconded.
 
11:59    15            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:59    16            DR. NELSON:  And Item F is an increase of
 
11:59    17       the bag limit for red snapper from two to five
 
11:59    18       to conform to the Federal regulations.
 
11:59    19            And, again, there is no one here who would
 
11:59    20       like to speak on this issue.
 
11:59    21            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Move approval.
 
11:59    22            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
11:59    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Moved and seconded.
 
11:59    24            Without objection, it's approved.
 
11:59    25            DR. NELSON:  Item G on the agenda is
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11:59     1       adjustments to the redfish management plan.
 
11:59     2       These basically are elimination of the
 
11:59     3       three-month closed season of March, April, and
 
11:59     4       May.  The Commission has reviewed over the
 
11:59     5       course of the last year this plan.
 
12:00     6            We think we are making very significant
 
12:00     7       progress towards the recovery schedule we
 
12:00     8       established back in 1988.  The Commission viewed
 
12:00     9       a number of options and felt that this was a
 
12:00    10       safe course of action for the State at this time
 
12:00    11       to allow some increase in harvest.
 
12:00    12            And we have several individuals who would
 
12:00    13       like to speak briefly on this rule.  That would
 
12:00    14       be Mimi Briglio, Patrick Small, and Fred Morgan.
 
12:00    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  If they would all come up
 
12:00    16       if they wish to speak.
 
12:00    17            MS. BRIGLIO:  Good morning, Governor and
 
12:00    18       members --
 
         19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Good morning.
 
12:00    20            MS. BRIGLIO:  -- of the -- members of the
 
         21       Cabinet.
 
12:00    22            For the record, my name is Mimi Briglio.
 
12:00    23       And my husband and I own a four-unit motel
 
12:00    24       located at the mouth of the Steinhatchee River.
 
12:00    25            I am standing here before you today as but
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12:00     1       one person.  But I am representing the
 
12:01     2       Taylor County Coastal Association.  We are a
 
12:01     3       group of approximately 90 small mom-and-pop type
 
12:01     4       business owners and operators.  And our sole
 
12:01     5       objective is to upgrade and enhance
 
12:01     6       Taylor County.  We do work as an extension of
 
12:01     7       the Taylor County Chamber of Commerce.
 
12:01     8            And, in essence, although I am but one very
 
12:01     9       small person, there are all 90 of us standing
 
12:01    10       here today.
 
12:01    11            I'm here today to ask you to reject the
 
12:01    12       proposal on the redfish from the Marine
 
         13       Fisheries Commission.
 
12:01    14            When the Legislature established the
 
12:01    15       Marine Fisheries Commission, it declared that
 
12:01    16       the policy of the Commission was to be of
 
12:01    17       management and preservation of the renewable
 
12:01    18       marine fishery resources, emphasizing protection
 
12:01    19       and enhancement of the marine environment in
 
12:02    20       such a manner as to provide for optimum
 
12:02    21       sustained benefits and use to all of the people
 
12:02    22       of the state.
 
         23            (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
 
12:02    24            MS. BRIGLIO:  In the August 1994 management
 
12:02    25       review of the red drum, which was supplied to
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12:02     1       the public by the Marine Fisheries Commission,
 
12:02     2       it is reported, and I quote:  The current status
 
12:02     3       of red drum seems to indicate that the
 
12:02     4       management measures in place have been
 
12:02     5       successful, end quote.
 
12:02     6            The report goes on to state that some
 
12:02     7       relaxation of regulations currently in place --
 
          8            (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
 
          9       room.)
 
12:02    10            MS. BRIGLIO:  -- especially concerning
 
12:02    11       daily harvest limits, size limits, and a closed
 
12:02    12       season might be considered.
 
12:02    13            At the August 7th regular meeting of the
 
12:02    14       Commission in Daytona Beach, our delegated
 
12:03    15       representative asked that the daily bag limit be
 
12:03    16       increased by one only.
 
12:03    17            Our part of the state services the
 
12:03    18       sustenance fisherman, the ones that
 
12:03    19       unfortunately have been disdainfully referred to
 
12:03    20       as meat eaters.
 
12:03    21            Our people who come to our part of the
 
12:03    22       state catch the fish to eat to feed their
 
12:03    23       families.  They are recreational fishermen, but
 
12:03    24       they eat their catch.
 
12:03    25            We're not asking to rape the resource.
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12:03     1       We're not asking for a handout, we're asking for
 
12:03     2       a hand up.  A year ago we came here and asked
 
12:03     3       that the trout rule that was proposed be thrown
 
12:03     4       back to the Commission so that we could
 
12:03     5       negotiate with them.
 
12:03     6            At that time, the Governor asked that the
 
12:03     7       Commission regionalize its ruling, and that we
 
12:03     8       who were opposing the proposal work in the
 
12:03     9       spirit of cooperation with the Marine Fisheries
 
         10       Commission.
 
12:03    11            (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
 
12:03    12            MS. BRIGLIO:  We have done -- and I think
 
12:04    13       on both sides of the fence regarding that
 
12:04    14       issue -- what the Governor asked us to do one
 
12:04    15       year ago.
 
12:04    16            On the redfish issue, we are asking at this
 
12:04    17       time the same opportunity.  Let us go back to
 
12:04    18       the Commission and work on a regionalized ruling
 
12:04    19       since our part of the state is not under the
 
12:04    20       same negative conditions that exist in other
 
12:04    21       parts of the state.  Our red drum are not
 
12:04    22       landlocked.  They can get to deep water to
 
12:04    23       spawn.
 
12:04    24            As I said, we're not asking for a handout,
 
12:04    25       we're asking for a hand up.  And I respectfully
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12:04     1       request that you reject this proposal from the
 
12:04     2       Commission.
 
12:04     3            Thank you.
 
12:04     4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, ma'am.
 
12:04     5            MR. MORGAN:  Good morning.
 
12:04     6            My name is Fred Morgan.  I'm with Big Bend
 
12:04     7       Marine in Perry, and I'm also the president of
 
12:05     8       the Taylor County Coastal Association.  I
 
12:05     9       appreciate this opportunity to speak with y'all
 
12:05    10       this morning.
 
12:05    11            This association that Mimi spoke about
 
12:05    12       earlier made its primarily goal this year to
 
12:05    13       monitor the regulations that the Marine
 
12:05    14       Fisheries Commission have imposed on our area.
 
12:05    15       We've done this through participation every
 
12:05    16       meeting they've had this year.  We've had more
 
12:05    17       attendance in the meetings than any other in the
 
12:05    18       state of Florida.
 
12:05    19            We feel like we've had some success doing
 
12:05    20       this, and I applaud the Commission on the fact
 
12:05    21       that they have worked with us.  The bay scallop
 
12:05    22       issue we will continue on.  We agreed with the
 
12:05    23       issue.
 
12:05    24            The speckled trout issue that you have here
 
12:05    25       today, we worked with them on length.  We've had
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12:05     1       a lot of public testimony in it, and we're here
 
12:05     2       in support of that issue.
 
12:05     3            But the redfish issue is another story.
 
12:05     4       We're here 100 percent against that.  And I've
 
12:05     5       got several reasons for that.
 
12:05     6            The first reason is a very simple reason.
 
12:06     7       The fish are back.  Their data states it, their
 
12:06     8       science states it.  I think if you ask the
 
12:06     9       Commissioners personally, they all would admit
 
12:06    10       they have responded to their management, I
 
12:06    11       commend them on their management.  But now it's
 
12:06    12       time to open the resource.  I don't think
 
12:06    13       anybody disputes the fact that they're back.
 
12:06    14            The second point I'd like to make is the
 
12:06    15       Commission, like Mimi said, they're not
 
12:06    16       following their charge.  Their charge is to
 
12:06    17       protect the species, to make it accessible.
 
12:06    18       They haven't done that.
 
12:06    19            I've asked them about that, and the best
 
12:06    20       response I've got from them is, nobody wants
 
12:06    21       it.  It's not true.  There's a lot of people in
 
12:06    22       this state that fish for redfish.
 
12:06    23            There's the group of so-called good old
 
12:06    24       boys.  They don't have an organization to
 
12:06    25       protect them.  They're not outspoken.  They
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12:06     1       can't attend the Marine Fisheries Commission
 
12:06     2       meetings, they're back at their job supporting
 
12:06     3       their family.  And supporting a large part of
 
12:06     4       the tax base of this state.
 
12:06     5            These guys want the opportunity to be able
 
12:06     6       to catch two fish and eat them if they want to.
 
12:06     7       They still have the opportunity to release them
 
12:06     8       if they want to.  They just want that right.
 
12:06     9            And it doesn't really matter if it's the
 
12:07    10       most popular view anyhow, that's not their
 
12:07    11       charge.  This is not a political issue.  They're
 
12:07    12       supposed to protect it, make it available to
 
12:07    13       us.  We don't feel like they're doing that.
 
12:07    14            The third thing I'd like to mention is that
 
12:07    15       there was a problem we feel with an imbalance.
 
12:07    16       A redfish is a very hearty and aggressive fish.
 
12:07    17       And here we are in a given bay area.  You can
 
12:07    18       catch one if he happens to be the right size and
 
12:07    19       it happens to be the right month, you can keep
 
12:07    20       one fish.
 
12:07    21            The -- the other species in this bay are
 
12:07    22       not afforded this protection.  Speckled trout,
 
12:07    23       flounder, sheepshead, croaker.  If you're
 
12:07    24       keeping one of these and fifty of that,
 
12:07    25       something's got to happen, especially with the
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12:07     1       aggressiveness of a redfish.  They're very
 
12:07     2       hearty.
 
12:07     3            There's a growing number of blue crabbers
 
12:07     4       in this state that feel that the blue crab
 
12:07     5       industry in the state of Florida is going to
 
12:07     6       fail if they're not controlled.  They blame the
 
12:07     7       decline in the blue crab on the redfish.
 
12:07     8       Redfish eat blue crabs.
 
12:08     9            The last point I'd like to made is a mat--
 
12:08    10       make is a matter of timing.  Earlier this year
 
12:08    11       the net ban passed.  July 1 some of our
 
12:08    12       businesses in our organization lost 50 percent
 
12:08    13       of their fuel sales, and other sales that went
 
12:08    14       along with that.  Fifty percent.  We'll never
 
12:08    15       get that back.  Never.
 
12:08    16            We had a reduction in the bay scallop.  The
 
12:08    17       bag limit was decreased 50 percent.  The season
 
12:08    18       was decreased 70 percent.  We're right here on
 
12:08    19       the eve of a speckled trout rule that is going
 
12:08    20       to decrease the bag limit a minimum 30 percent,
 
12:08    21       up to 50 percent.  So the timing's right.
 
12:08    22            They've managed this species, it's worked,
 
12:08    23       now would be the opportune time to open it up.
 
12:08    24       Let it compensate us for some of the losses
 
12:08    25       we're going to have on these other issues.
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12:08     1       Perfect timing.
 
12:08     2            In closing, I'd like to make a comment
 
12:08     3       about the meeting in Daytona.  I spoke there for
 
12:08     4       our group on redfish.  As Mimi said earlier, we
 
12:08     5       asked for two fish.  We didn't ask to keep the
 
12:09     6       big fish that spawn, we didn't ask to change the
 
12:09     7       slot limit, we asked for one more fish than
 
12:09     8       we've got now.  They did not listen to us.
 
12:09     9            I would like for you to give them the same
 
12:09    10       courtesy they did us, don't listen to them
 
12:09    11       today.  Please reject this rule, and let's see
 
12:09    12       if we can't work out something that's equitable.
 
12:09    13            Thank y'all.
 
12:09    14            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
12:09    15            MR. SMALL:  Good morning distinguished
 
12:09    16       members of the Cabinet.  My name is
 
12:09    17       Patrick Small.  I'm the coordinator of economic
 
12:09    18       development for Taylor County.
 
12:09    19            This is an economic issue also.  As
 
12:09    20       you know, Florida's in fierce competition with
 
12:09    21       the surrounding states for tourists.  People
 
12:09    22       want to come here, they want to fish.
 
12:09    23            A county like Taylor has a lot to offer.
 
12:09    24       It's a prime site for ecotourism.  If we can
 
12:09    25       encourage some of these people to come here to
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12:09     1       fish, then we can increase through the
 
12:09     2       multiplier effect the sales that Fred had
 
12:09     3       mentioned be increased.  Our convenience stores,
 
12:09     4       our shops, our gas stations.
 
12:09     5            We are a county that has been adversely
 
12:10     6       affected by the net ban.  We have a lot of
 
12:10     7       people that are unemployed.  The unemployment
 
12:10     8       rate hovers around 15 percent at the moment.
 
12:10     9       Some of these people can get jobs as guides.
 
12:10    10            People are not going to come to
 
12:10    11       Taylor County to fish if they can only catch one
 
12:10    12       fish.  They're not going to hire somebody to
 
12:10    13       take them out and show them where the fish are,
 
12:10    14       if they can only keep one fish.
 
12:10    15            I won't waste any more of your time.  I
 
12:10    16       want to thank you for the opportunity to appear
 
12:10    17       before you today, and ask you to reject this
 
12:10    18       proposed rule.
 
12:10    19            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:10    20            DR. NELSON:  If I might address a couple
 
12:10    21       points that were raised here today.
 
12:10    22            The Commission does believe that we are on,
 
12:10    23       and perhaps ahead, of the recovery trajectory
 
12:10    24       that was established for redfish in 1988.
 
12:10    25            At that time, the spawning, the
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12:10     1       reproductive potential in this stock was about
 
12:10     2       1/35 of what would be in a healthy stock.  And
 
12:10     3       we're talking about fish that live to be
 
12:10     4       fifty years old.
 
12:11     5            We had had over the years very high rates
 
12:11     6       of fishing mortality, and very few fish were
 
12:11     7       surviving to get -- and grow into that older
 
12:11     8       part of the stock where they would be there for
 
12:11     9       years and years to reproduce.  So we established
 
12:11    10       a recovery schedule.  We are on it, we may even
 
12:11    11       be ahead of it.
 
12:11    12            But as was said here in this room back in
 
12:11    13       1988, we anticipated that to get to the
 
12:11    14       completion of that schedule, to restore that
 
12:11    15       stock to the full health and abundance and
 
12:11    16       spawning potential that all the scientists
 
12:11    17       agreed we needed, it would probably take us
 
12:11    18       somewhere in the order of 20 years.
 
12:11    19            We may be ahead of the track.  We -- and
 
12:11    20       the Commission felt that we were.  They
 
12:11    21       considered explicitly two alternatives during
 
12:11    22       this consideration this summer.  We'd like --
 
12:11    23       the assessment indicated there was some room for
 
12:11    24       liberalization.
 
12:11    25            One of the alternatives that we suggested
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12:11     1       would be to increase the bag limit and maintain
 
12:11     2       the current closed season.  The other would be
 
12:11     3       to eliminate the current closed season.
 
12:12     4            And there was debate around the state,
 
12:12     5       there were interests who felt that they'd like
 
12:12     6       to see the bag limit increased, keep the closed
 
12:12     7       season; others who felt that they would like to
 
12:12     8       see the closed season eliminated and keep the
 
12:12     9       bag limit.
 
12:12    10            I think a major factor in the Commission's
 
12:12    11       ultimate decision was the fact that the Florida
 
12:12    12       Marine Research Institute has just received a
 
         13       Federal Salton Stall-Kennedy grant to do a
 
12:12    14       three-year study of the adult redfish that have
 
12:12    15       moved offshore.
 
12:12    16            And, again, briefly though, the young ones
 
12:12    17       live in shore; when they get four years old or
 
12:12    18       so, they move offshore and stay there, and that
 
12:12    19       becomes the spawning potential, the spawning
 
12:12    20       group of this stock.  They're us-- they're not
 
12:12    21       fished at present, they're completely protected
 
12:12    22       under Federal law in offshore waters.
 
12:12    23            For the first time, we will have the
 
12:12    24       opportunity to go out there, sample those fish,
 
12:12    25       determine what age they are, and look and see
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12:12     1       definitively if what we have been doing in this
 
12:12     2       state over the last number of years to allow
 
12:12     3       more fish to escape, if those fish are actually
 
12:12     4       out there.
 
12:12     5            And I think the Commission felt that they
 
12:13     6       would like to see that very strong and
 
12:13     7       definitive answer before they ventured further
 
12:13     8       to liberalizing the rule.
 
12:13     9            So there was a debate, there were varying
 
12:13    10       interests around the state.  And the Commission
 
12:13    11       decided that they felt most comfortable with
 
12:13    12       eliminating the closed season.  And there had
 
12:13    13       been repeated reference made to the standards
 
12:13    14       that this Commission has to work by, and they're
 
12:13    15       certainly accurate references.
 
12:13    16            But I would remind the Board that what is
 
12:13    17       given to us by the Legislature as the paramount
 
12:13    18       standard, the paramount standard; and that is,
 
12:13    19       to ensure the health and abundance of our
 
12:13    20       stocks, present and future generations.
 
12:13    21            I believe that standard argues for the
 
12:13    22       Commission to be very careful.  I think we'll
 
12:13    23       find that we're going to be talking about
 
12:13    24       sea trout later in the day; and that, frankly,
 
12:13    25       is an instance where we weren't careful enough
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12:13     1       when we did regulations back in 1989, weren't
 
12:13     2       strict enough, and now find ourself in the
 
12:13     3       posture of having to come back and tighten down.
 
12:13     4            So I just wanted to try to explain some of
 
12:14     5       the logic behind how the Commission arrived at
 
12:14     6       that decision.
 
12:14     7            I -- be happy to answer questions.  I guess
 
12:14     8       there was one person who would like to speak in
 
12:14     9       favor of the rule.
 
12:14    10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Just a question,
 
12:14    11       Mr. Nelson.
 
12:14    12            You have suggested that the scientific data
 
12:14    13       originally suggested a recovery system that may
 
12:14    14       be up to 20 years in length.  But you've also
 
12:14    15       suggested that we may be ahead of that curve,
 
12:14    16       which does not surprise me.  I think
 
12:14    17       Mother Nature has an incredible capacity to
 
12:14    18       regenerate if pressure is relieved for a short
 
12:14    19       period of time.
 
12:14    20            But then you suggested that you're about to
 
12:14    21       enter into a three-year study?
 
12:14    22            DR. NELSON:  That's --
 
12:14    23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  We -- the Kennedy
 
12:14    24       grant?  Am I -- do I understand that correctly?
 
12:14    25            DR. NELSON:  That's correct.
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12:14     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Are you going to use
 
12:14     2       that three-year study then as a definitive
 
12:14     3       determiner as to how far ahead of that curve we
 
12:14     4       really are, and if, in effect, at the end of
 
12:14     5       that three-year period of time, any particular
 
12:14     6       changes in this rule may be appropriate based on
 
12:14     7       that definitive research?
 
12:15     8            DR. NELSON:  Yes.  That's exactly correct,
 
12:15     9       Commission Brogan.  We -- the Commission, that
 
12:15    10       was an explicit part of their discussion, that
 
12:15    11       we have this study out there, we have good
 
12:15    12       science, but indirect science that lets us look
 
12:15    13       at these species, and then gives us an idea that
 
12:15    14       this will be the first time we actually get a
 
12:15    15       solid measurement where we can say, yes, we've
 
12:15    16       got fish that are four, five, six, seven years
 
12:15    17       old out there in this abundance, and that means
 
12:15    18       that they've actually -- what we've tried to do
 
12:15    19       works.
 
12:15    20            So that was explicitly part of their
 
12:15    21       decision, that they wanted to wait for this
 
12:15    22       study before they took any additional action.
 
12:15    23            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And the reason I ask
 
12:15    24       that is because I believe we move into these
 
12:15    25       rules with the best information that we can
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12:15     1       possibly gather, and that is hopefully empirical
 
12:15     2       data that's gathered through research.  And we
 
12:15     3       have to hang our hat on that information in more
 
12:15     4       cases than not to make certain that we're making
 
12:15     5       the right kind of rulings.
 
12:15     6            What I'm hearing you say is that even
 
12:15     7       though the field perspective on this may be that
 
12:16     8       that fish is back, and back with a vengeance,
 
12:16     9       I'm hearing you say that the Commission's feel
 
12:16    10       is that there still needs to be additional time
 
12:16    11       to be assured that that is the case, and that
 
12:16    12       this three-year definitive study will give us
 
12:16    13       that answer without having to necessitate the
 
12:16    14       additional years to the full 20 years that was
 
12:16    15       originally discussed by scientific research.
 
12:16    16            DR. NELSON:  I think it will give us a very
 
12:16    17       strong idea.  And if we are, as many people
 
12:16    18       believe, well ahead of the recovery schedule,
 
12:16    19       that would mean that we have more basis for
 
12:16    20       allowing increased levels of harvest while
 
12:16    21       staying on that schedule.
 
12:16    22            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, let me ask you:  Do
 
12:16    23       you think it's going to take three years, even
 
12:16    24       though you've got a grant for three years.
 
12:16    25       You know, I can understand wanting to really get
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12:16     1       the scientific knowledge that you'd gather in
 
12:16     2       deeper water.  It's pretty clear anecdotal
 
12:16     3       knowledge that people are catching a hell of a
 
12:16     4       lot more redfish.
 
12:16     5            DR. NELSON:  Certainly.
 
12:16     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You know, and that's been
 
12:16     7       going up every year --
 
12:17     8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  All except me,
 
12:17     9       Governor.  I can't figure that out.
 
12:17    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is that right?  Well --
 
12:17    11            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I don't think that's
 
12:17    12       a problem with anybody but me.
 
12:17    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Fishermen are catching
 
12:17    14       more redfish.
 
12:17    15            Somebody is.  Because where -- you know, it
 
12:17    16       got very desperate and very hard to do now,
 
12:17    17       you know, everybody's sorting out the redfish
 
12:17    18       they catch and throw them back, and they're
 
12:17    19       talking about that.
 
12:17    20            So it's obvious that we've got an awful lot
 
12:17    21       more redfish than we had.
 
12:17    22            DR. NELSON:  That's right.
 
12:17    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  You know, if we've got
 
12:17    24       the stock, again, you know, we don't want to go
 
12:17    25       back to where we were at all.  But as soon as we
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12:17     1       could, you know, we ought to be allowing our
 
12:17     2       recreational fishermen, and all of our fishermen
 
12:17     3       to be able to do better.  You know, it is a
 
12:17     4       recreational fish.
 
12:17     5            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So let me -- let me
 
12:17     6       try this, Governor --
 
12:17     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I would hope that we're
 
12:17     8       not going to have to necessarily wait three
 
12:17     9       years.
 
12:17    10            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Will there be an
 
12:17    11       annual report filed I would think --
 
12:17    12            DR. NELSON:  Yes, there will be.  And we
 
12:17    13       will -- you know, we will rely on the advice
 
12:17    14       given by the scientists who are conducting this
 
12:17    15       research.  The science -- the schedule is to
 
12:18    16       sample 1,000 redfish a year from these offshore
 
12:18    17       schools up and down the west coast.
 
12:18    18            If -- if that sampling goes well, they can
 
12:18    19       exceed that, and the results are very clear and
 
12:18    20       definitive, we might well get an answer before
 
12:18    21       that.
 
12:18    22            But we certainly will be -- would be
 
12:18    23       looking to that.
 
12:18    24            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Could I suggest that
 
12:18    25       from start to completion of the first year of
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12:18     1       that study, that the Board would be very
 
12:18     2       interested in the first year results of that
 
12:18     3       particular grant study?
 
12:18     4            DR. NELSON:  We would be happy to supply
 
12:18     5       that, or perhaps the Marine Institute would be
 
12:18     6       the ones that want to do that here.  But we
 
12:18     7       would very --
 
12:18     8            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  In the meantime, I'll
 
12:18     9       do all my fishing with the Governor.
 
12:18    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's hunting season now.
 
12:18    11            MR. FORSGREN:  Governor, members of the
 
12:18    12       Cabinet, my name is Ted Forsgren, and I
 
12:18    13       represent the Florida Conservation Association.
 
12:18    14            I just wanted each of you to know that
 
12:18    15       there is very strong support for the
 
12:18    16       Commission's redfish rule throughout the state.
 
12:19    17       Redfish rule has been one of the most successful
 
12:19    18       fishery rules ever developed by the
 
12:19    19       State of Florida.
 
12:19    20            And we feel that caution and prudence is
 
12:19    21       necessary because of the value of this fish
 
12:19    22       at -- to the state of Florida.  And we think the
 
12:19    23       Commission's move to open it up somewhat, which
 
12:19    24       assists the Taylor County situation, and I think
 
12:19    25       it's part of the compromise in the total package
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12:19     1       of rules that you see here today.
 
12:19     2            So we're willing to support some cautious
 
12:19     3       reopening --
 
          4            (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
 
12:19     5       room.)
 
12:19     6            MR. FORSGREN:  -- and, as Mr. Nelson said,
 
12:19     7       the definitive study is going to confirm what we
 
12:19     8       all hope is true, is that the adult spawning
 
12:19     9       stocks are also thriving and expanding in
 
12:19    10       offshore waters.
 
12:19    11            Thank you.
 
12:19    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Is there --
 
12:19    13            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Do you need a motion?
 
12:19    14            So move.
 
12:19    15            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Second.
 
12:19    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and
 
12:19    17       seconded.
 
12:19    18            Is there further discussion?
 
         19            DR. NELSON:  The next --
 
12:19    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Without objection, the
 
12:19    21       rule is adopted.
 
12:19    22            DR. NELSON:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:20    23            The next four items, H, I, J, and K, deal
 
12:20    24       with tarpon; pompano, African pompano, permit;
 
12:20    25       flounder and sheepshead; and tripletail.  I
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12:20     1       don't believe, again, that there's anyone who'd
 
12:20     2       like to speak on these.
 
12:20     3            I would say that these rules do address one
 
12:20     4       of the concerns raised by Mr. Morgan, that there
 
12:20     5       are regulations on some fish out there, and
 
12:20     6       other fish have been unregulated and subject to
 
12:20     7       higher levels of exploitation.
 
12:20     8            So this rule package dealing with the other
 
12:20     9       species other than tarpon will, in fact, we will
 
12:20    10       take a very proactive package to allow us to get
 
12:20    11       ahead of the curve, allow reasonable acceptable
 
12:20    12       levels of harvest for these species before we
 
12:20    13       have to get in a position where we have to start
 
12:20    14       imposing fairly harsh --
 
12:20    15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I will move approval
 
12:20    16       of items, Governor, H through --
 
12:20    17            DR. NELSON:  K.
 
12:20    18            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- K.
 
12:20    19            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Second.
 
12:20    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and
 
12:20    21       seconded in block.
 
12:20    22            Without objection, they're approved.
 
12:20    23            DR. NELSON:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:20    24            The -- the next item -- the next to last
 
12:20    25       item is the spotted sea trout.
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12:20     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I wonder if we might skip
 
12:20     2       over to shrimping.  We've got several of our
 
12:21     3       legislators here that have been waiting out here
 
12:21     4       would like to speak.
 
12:21     5            So let's -- let's skip over to shrimping,
 
12:21     6       and then we'll come back --
 
          7            (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
 
12:21     8            DR. NELSON:  Certainly, Governor.
 
12:21     9            This, of course, is the rule that was
 
12:21    10       deferred from the August 22nd agenda.  I would
 
12:21    11       like to point out -- perhaps I'll wait till our
 
12:21    12       elected officials have had the chance to talk.
 
12:21    13            But there have been a number of issues
 
12:21    14       raised on -- I think we've worked very hard to
 
12:21    15       try to clarify some things and I, frankly,
 
12:21    16       apologize for not being clear enough on the
 
12:21    17       first time this rule came up.
 
12:21    18            I just wanted to state very clearly though,
 
12:21    19       the rule as it is, applies only to trawls which
 
12:21    20       tend the bottom; that is, drag along the
 
12:21    21       bottom.  Other trawls which fish from the
 
12:21    22       surface down or in mid water, which do not
 
12:21    23       address the bottom; hence, don't have the same
 
12:21    24       problems with a lot of bycatch, trawls which at
 
12:21    25       this point are being used for jellyfish and some
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12:21     1       bait fishes, those trawls are not affected by
 
12:21     2       this rule.
 
12:21     3            The second issue I want to explicitly
 
12:21     4       address is the issue of bycatch.  And I have
 
12:22     5       asked -- Major Alan Richardson is here from the
 
12:22     6       Florida Marine Patrol.  At an appropriate time,
 
12:22     7       he will explain to you how the issue of fish
 
12:22     8       sizes, closed seasons, et cetera, is addressed
 
12:22     9       to fish that are taken inadvertently in fish
 
12:22    10       trawls.  He will explain to you that, as in the
 
12:22    11       past, so in the future, this rule doesn't change
 
12:22    12       things, that, you know, those people are not
 
12:22    13       subject to citation while they're sorting their
 
12:22    14       catch.  But I know he wants to explain that
 
12:22    15       himself.
 
12:22    16            So perhaps Dr. Marston would like to say a
 
12:22    17       few words, then we'll ask the --
 
         18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.
 
12:22    19            DR. NELSON:  -- the folks --
 
12:22    20            DR. MARSTON:  Governor and members of the
 
12:22    21       Cabinet, I'd like to take about 4 minutes to
 
12:22    22       review with you the activities the Commission
 
12:22    23       has taken since you directed us to review the
 
12:22    24       shrimp rule to try to find a better way to
 
12:22    25       handle the issue of use of trawls for the
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12:22     1       purposeful harvest of finfish.
 
12:22     2            Prior to our commission of the rule to you
 
12:22     3       in August, staff had raised the issue first on
 
12:22     4       November 1994.  Subsequently, it was considered
 
12:23     5       by the full Commission, and public testimony was
 
12:23     6       received at four meetings.
 
12:23     7            Since your Cabinet meeting in August, we've
 
12:23     8       held an emergency meeting with public testimony
 
12:23     9       in Tallahassee on September 8th; and meetings on
 
12:23    10       October 2nd and October 3rd in Sarasota.
 
12:23    11            That's a total of 23 hours has been spent
 
12:23    12       by the full Commission on this important
 
12:23    13       subject.
 
12:23    14            I reviewed the entire record of your
 
12:23    15       actions in August, and I made a personal
 
12:23    16       commitment to the Governor to seek an acceptable
 
12:23    17       compromise.  And this is what we've done.
 
12:23    18            First, specifically, we sought additional
 
12:23    19       information concerning the use of bottom
 
12:23    20       dragging otter trawls and roller trawls, the
 
12:23    21       only gear involved in this rule in Florida
 
12:23    22       waters.
 
12:23    23            That you had requested research carried out
 
12:23    24       by the Florida State University, the Florida
 
12:23    25       Marine Research Institute, and the MFC in all
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12:24     1       areas of Florida has shown that the incidental
 
12:24     2       take of small, mostly less than 6 inches in
 
12:24     3       length, fish in shrimp trawls is a significant
 
12:24     4       problem here, as elsewhere.
 
12:24     5            The Florida Marine Research Institute has
 
12:24     6       conducted experimental trawling for bait fish in
 
12:24     7       nearshore and inshore waters of Florida's Gulf
 
12:24     8       Coast.  Approximately 60 percent of the total
 
12:24     9       catch was of nontargeted species, mostly below
 
12:24    10       legal size.
 
12:24    11            Secondly, we have reviewed in detail the
 
12:24    12       danger of allowing, even for a short time,
 
12:24    13       directed finfishing with otter and roller trawls
 
12:24    14       in areas deemed for years to be too sensitive to
 
12:24    15       shrimp trawls, such as large areas in the
 
12:24    16       northwest.
 
12:24    17            These gears after dipping, with doors or
 
12:24    18       frames attached, and with chains or rollers at
 
12:24    19       the bottom, weigh from hundreds of pounds to a
 
12:25    20       half ton for two roller frame trawls pulled
 
12:25    21       behind a single boat, not counting the weight of
 
12:25    22       the harvest.
 
12:25    23            We have even more concern about the
 
12:25    24       unregulated use of such gear for directed
 
12:25    25       finfishing in areas now closed to shrimping than
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12:25     1       we did when we appeared before you last.
 
12:25     2            Three, we have focused on the two-thirds of
 
12:25     3       the Florida water which are outside of the 1 and
 
12:25     4       3 mile 500 square foot per net limit.  In
 
12:25     5       reexamining this issue, we see no advantages to
 
12:25     6       Florida in inviting boats and trawls of
 
12:25     7       unlimited size from wherever into our waters for
 
12:25     8       new and uncertain purposes.
 
12:25     9            Most importantly, we've responded to your
 
12:25    10       direction to seek useful and safe alternatives
 
12:25    11       from those suffering from the results of the net
 
12:25    12       ban.
 
12:25    13            At the MFC meeting starting Monday of next
 
12:26    14       week, we will give staff directions concerning
 
12:26    15       jellyfish and bait fish in the anticipation that
 
12:26    16       any additional rules that will facilitate
 
12:26    17       that -- those two areas will be completed early
 
12:26    18       next year.
 
12:26    19            We will also consider the more difficult
 
12:26    20       issue of the use of bottom dragging trawls for
 
12:26    21       selected finfish under safe conditions and in
 
12:26    22       safe areas.  Quite honestly, I do not know how
 
12:26    23       this will come out.  But we are making the
 
12:26    24       effort.
 
12:26    25            The last few months of keen debate and much
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12:26     1       public outcry has not been comfortable for any
 
12:26     2       of us.  However, it is the American process.
 
12:26     3       And in this case, as often happens, I truly
 
12:26     4       believe that we all have a better understanding
 
12:26     5       of these very important issues than we would not
 
12:27     6       have had if you had not sent us back to the
 
12:27     7       drawing board.
 
12:27     8            Thank you.
 
12:27     9            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Governor, for --
 
         10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, ma'am.
 
12:27    11            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  -- purposes of
 
12:27    12       discussion, I move approval of the rule as
 
12:27    13       proposed.
 
12:27    14            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Second.
 
12:27    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's been moved and
 
12:27    16       seconded.
 
12:27    17            All right.
 
12:27    18            REPRESENTATIVE SAFLEY:  Governor and
 
12:27    19       Cabinet, I'm Sandy Safley.  I'm first here as a
 
12:27    20       citizen of this state; and ancillarily, as a
 
12:27    21       member of the State Legislature, and a former
 
12:27    22       Vice-Chairman of the Marine Fisheries Commission
 
12:27    23       in support of the rule before you.
 
12:27    24            I can attest to the effort that goes into
 
12:27    25       the rulemaking process, and I also can attest to
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12:27     1       the role -- important role that you all play in
 
12:27     2       this process, and I simply wanted to lend my
 
12:27     3       support to this rule, knowing of the actions
 
12:27     4       over the last two months, but felt that it was
 
12:27     5       important for me to make a special trip up here
 
12:27     6       first as a citizen, and perhaps as the first
 
12:27     7       sponsor of the net ban amendment in the
 
12:27     8       State Legislature to endorse this rule.
 
12:27     9            Thank you.
 
12:28    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
12:28    11            SENATOR CRIST:  Governor, Cabinet, I'm
 
12:28    12       Charlie Crist, I'm a State Senator from the
 
12:28    13       Tampa Bay area.
 
12:28    14            I just wanted to join in with
 
12:28    15       Representative Safley and Dr. Marston and
 
12:28    16       encourage you to go ahead and adopt this good
 
12:28    17       rule.  I think it's awfully important that we
 
12:28    18       protect our natural resources.  And I think that
 
12:28    19       this rule goes a long way to doing that.
 
12:28    20            I think it also does reflect what we've
 
12:28    21       seen in terms of the wishes of the people of the
 
12:28    22       state of Florida in terms of the net ban that
 
12:28    23       was -- that was passed last year, and would
 
12:28    24       encourage and appreciate your support.
 
12:28    25            Thank you.
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12:28     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
12:28     2            DR. NELSON:  I know Senator Latvala was
 
12:28     3       here, but I guess he must have been called out.
 
12:28     4       So --
 
12:28     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, if he comes in,
 
12:28     6       we'll --
 
12:28     7            DR. NELSON:  Perhaps we -- I have -- we
 
12:28     8       have talked with the proponents and opponents of
 
12:28     9       the rule.  They have agreed to 20 minutes a
 
12:28    10       side.
 
12:28    11            I'm going to let them come up and direct
 
12:28    12       their speakers.  Before that, for your
 
12:28    13       information, I'd like Major Alan Richards to
 
12:28    14       come up, and again to clarify this issue on just
 
12:29    15       how bycatch is enforced upon shrimp trawls.
 
         16            Alan.
 
12:29    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I see Senator Latvala
 
12:29    18       coming up now.  We -- let's hear from him
 
12:29    19       first.
 
12:29    20            SENATOR LATVALA:  I'm sorry.
 
12:29    21            Governor, we appreciate your courtesy in
 
12:29    22       letting us come early.  I know you've heard all
 
12:29    23       you want to hear about this rule.  Your staff's
 
12:29    24       been working --
 
12:29    25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  We can hear some more.
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12:29     1            SENATOR LATVALA:  Your staffs have worked
 
12:29     2       very hard on this the last month or two.  I know
 
12:29     3       there was a lot of confusion initially.
 
12:29     4            But I don't want to oversell you, other
 
12:29     5       than I'd just like to endorse the work of the
 
12:29     6       Commission, and urge you to adopt the rule.
 
12:29     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
12:29     8            Major.
 
12:29     9            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  I appreciate the
 
12:29    10       promotion, but actually I'm a Captain.  I'm with
 
12:29    11       the Florida Marine Patrol, which is part of the
 
12:29    12       Division of Law Enforcement of DEP.
 
12:30    13            The question has been raised that fishermen
 
12:30    14       might be cited for taking their trawls, dumping
 
12:30    15       them on the deck, and then sorting their fish.
 
12:30    16       Let me assure you, this is not the case.  I am
 
12:30    17       not aware of any citations that have ever been
 
         18       issued --
 
         19            (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
 
12:30    20            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  -- under those
 
12:30    21       circumstances.
 
12:30    22            Clearly, if the fish are reduced to
 
12:30    23       possession -- that's what the statute says -- if
 
12:30    24       they're reduced to possession, if they're iced
 
12:30    25       down, if they're boxed, if there's bags
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12:30     1       somewhere, if they're keeping the fish, they're
 
12:30     2       going to get a ticket if the fish are otherwise
 
12:30     3       unlawful to keep.
 
12:30     4            But if the fish can be lawfully kept,
 
12:30     5       that's not a problem.  And if the fish are on
 
12:30     6       the deck being sorted to be discarded, that's
 
12:30     7       not a problem.  Even though the fish are dead --
 
12:30     8       the trawls will kill the fish, they'll be dead
 
12:30     9       on the deck, and they can't be released
 
12:30    10       immediately alive and unharmed.  They're dead in
 
12:31    11       the trawl before they ever hit the deck.
 
12:31    12            We understand this.  And our enforcement
 
12:31    13       practice has been, and will continue to be, that
 
12:31    14       we will not cite fishermen who are sorting their
 
12:31    15       catch.  The same way we don't cite oystermen for
 
12:31    16       culling their oysters, sport fishermen who are
 
12:31    17       measuring the fish they've just caught.  There
 
12:31    18       has to be a reasonable opportunity to examine
 
12:31    19       the catch and reduce it to possession, or return
 
12:31    20       it to the water.
 
12:31    21            And that's the Marine Patrol's enforcement
 
12:31    22       posture on this.
 
12:31    23            If there are any questions, I'll be glad to
 
12:31    24       take them.
 
12:31    25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
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12:31     1            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:31     2            DR. NELSON:  The -- the two sides of this
 
12:31     3       issue have agreed to let the proponents have
 
12:31     4       10 minutes, then the opponents will have
 
12:31     5       20 minutes, and the proponents will follow with
 
12:31     6       10.
 
12:31     7            So I'm going to let Mr. Forsgren bring you
 
12:31     8       the folks for his first 10 minutes.
 
12:31     9            MR. FORSGREN:  Thank you, Governor, members
 
12:31    10       of the Cabinet.
 
12:32    11            We're here today to urge you to support
 
12:32    12       these -- this rule in particular, and all the
 
12:32    13       rules.  And I wanted to point out that,
 
12:32    14       you know, we are here to support the entire
 
12:32    15       package.  There are provisions in these rules
 
12:32    16       that we didn't support at the Commission
 
12:32    17       meeting.
 
12:32    18            But we feel that overall, most importantly,
 
12:32    19       it's extremely important to the marine resources
 
12:32    20       in this state, particularly as it relates to
 
12:32    21       preventing the use of wasteful and damaging fish
 
12:32    22       trawls.
 
12:32    23            We have a lot of people here.  I've asked
 
12:32    24       everybody who's going to speak to be very brief
 
12:32    25       and concise so that we can stay within our time
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12:32     1       limits.
 
12:32     2            And the first speaker will be John Pinder,
 
12:32     3       followed by Manley Fuller.
 
12:32     4            MR. PINDER:  Good morning, Governor and
 
12:32     5       Cabinet.  Thank you for this opportunity.
 
12:32     6            I'm -- I'm chairman of the Florida
 
12:32     7       Conservation Association this year.  And I'm
 
12:32     8       very happy to see all the red hats that we have
 
12:32     9       out there.  We have a lot of people that have
 
12:32    10       taken off from work, and traveled quite a
 
12:33    11       distance.  And they've done this because they
 
12:33    12       feel it's important to be here today.
 
12:33    13            I guess we even have one group of people
 
12:33    14       out there that got on a bus at 1:30 this morning
 
12:33    15       and started traveling to be here for
 
12:33    16       9:00 o'clock.  So it is important to us.
 
12:33    17            It's also very important to the people of
 
12:33    18       Florida.  Last November, 2.8 million people
 
12:33    19       voted to ban nets in state waters.  And I don't
 
12:33    20       think they were talking about playing games with
 
12:33    21       what type of net it was, or so forth.  I think
 
12:33    22       they were talking about banning nets.
 
12:33    23            And I firmly believe, as Ted has mentioned,
 
12:33    24       that the fish trawl is an exceptionally
 
12:33    25       dangerous, wasteful, and indiscriminate type
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12:33     1       gear as far as bycatch and all goes.
 
12:33     2            I'd also like to thank the Marine Fisheries
 
12:33     3       Commission for all the hard work that they've
 
12:34     4       put in over the past year or so.  I've been
 
12:34     5       following this and doing this for about ten or
 
12:34     6       twelve years now.  And in the past, it's always
 
12:34     7       been we have been reactive as far as responding
 
12:34     8       to crisis situations within the marine resources
 
12:34     9       in our state waters.
 
12:34    10            I think we've made a big step with the
 
12:34    11       Marine Fisheries Commission, and the people of
 
12:34    12       Florida have had a big step, respondedly, by
 
12:34    13       them taking a proactive stance in going forward
 
12:34    14       and trying to address problems before they
 
12:34    15       become problems.
 
12:34    16            So again, thank you for this opportunity.
 
12:34    17            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:34    18            MR. FULLER:  Governor and Cabinet,
 
12:35    19       Manley Fuller representing the Florida Wildlife
 
12:35    20       Federation.  We'd like to speak in support of
 
12:35    21       the recommended rule of the Marine Fisheries
 
12:35    22       Commission regarding trawling.
 
12:35    23            We think that trawling in other areas of
 
12:35    24       the world has been a -- has created serious
 
12:35    25       problems with reduction of fishery stocks,
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12:35     1       largely through bycatch.
 
12:35     2            And we think that when we're thinking about
 
12:35     3       bycatch, something that sometimes gets lost in
 
12:35     4       the thought process is that those -- many times
 
12:35     5       we're talking about juvenile fish, which being
 
12:35     6       killed by this process don't have the
 
12:35     7       opportunity to reach either their economic --
 
12:35     8       their full economic or ecological potential.
 
12:35     9            We think that development of trawling gear
 
12:35    10       has to be done in a very careful manner to
 
12:35    11       reduce the possibility or eliminate the
 
12:35    12       possibility of bycatch becoming a serious
 
12:35    13       problem for a lot of our fishery stocks.
 
12:36    14            And there is also potential of trawling
 
12:36    15       representing a threat to marine turtles.  And
 
12:36    16       without the use of devices such as turtle
 
12:36    17       excluder devices which have been shown to be
 
12:36    18       very effective.
 
12:36    19            So we -- we think that the Marine Fisheries
 
12:36    20       Commission recommendations regarding trawling
 
12:36    21       are appropriate, and we would urge you to
 
12:36    22       endorse those.
 
12:36    23            Thank you.
 
12:36    24            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:36    25            MS. BOWLES:  Governor and members of the
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12:36     1       Cabinet, I'm Richard Bowles, a private citizen
 
12:36     2       from Gainesville.
 
12:36     3            One year ago, 72 percent of Florida's
 
12:36     4       voters made a clear statement against the use of
 
12:36     5       exploited fishing gear in Florida waters.
 
12:36     6       Subsequently, the voters' first surprise was to
 
12:36     7       learn that there might be a creative way to
 
12:36     8       measure netting so that the language of the
 
12:36     9       constitutional amendment could be subverted.
 
12:36    10            The next jolt was a proposal to modify
 
12:37    11       shrimp trawls into fish trawls, which have not
 
12:37    12       historically been used in Florida waters to
 
12:37    13       harvest finfish.
 
12:37    14            Fish trawls have destroyed the fisheries of
 
12:37    15       Newfoundland's Georges Bank, and those off the
 
12:37    16       northeastern United States which once fed the
 
12:37    17       world.
 
12:37    18            The Alaska Fish and Game Division have
 
         19       documented that fish trawls and wildlife pollack
 
12:37    20       fishery alone destroy and discard 700 million
 
12:37    21       pounds of fish each year.  To allow such gear in
 
12:37    22       Florida would be a major disaster.
 
12:37    23            I urge you to approve the recommendations
 
12:37    24       of the Marine Fisheries Commission, and oppose
 
12:37    25       the creation of trawl fisheries in Florida.
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12:37     1            Thank you.
 
          2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
12:37     3            MR. ANTHONY:  Governor and Cabinet, I
 
12:38     4       appreciate the opportunity to speak to you.  I'm
 
12:38     5       David Anthony from Gainesville.
 
12:38     6            Lawton Chiles knows me fairly well since he
 
12:38     7       nominated me for service on the Gulf of Mexico
 
12:38     8       Fishery Management Council, and I did serve that
 
12:38     9       in -- from 1991 to 1994.  I was on the original
 
12:38    10       Florida Marine Fisheries Commission appointed by
 
12:38    11       then Governor -- Governor Graham.  In fact, my
 
12:38    12       tenure did overlap some of Mr. -- of
 
12:38    13       Representative Safley's.  And incidentally, he
 
12:38    14       was an excellent commissioner.
 
12:38    15            While I was on the Gulf Council, I was on
 
12:38    16       the Habitat Protection Committee --
 
         17            (Secretary Mortham exited the room.)
 
12:38    18            MR. ANTHONY:  -- of the Council for the
 
12:38    19       entire time, and most of the time I was chairman
 
12:38    20       of that committee.
 
12:38    21            And so it fell in my lot to go to educate
 
12:38    22       the rest of the council, and of the committee on
 
12:39    23       what I -- on -- all over the world what the
 
12:39    24       various problems were with respect to the
 
12:39    25       environment, the marine environment.
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12:39     1            And one of the very worst actors -- very
 
12:39     2       worst threats to the marine environment was
 
12:39     3       bottom tending trawls.  They're a mess.  I --
 
12:39     4       the state is very -- is very properly concerned
 
12:39     5       about prop scarring from boats going across
 
12:39     6       grass flats.  Well, those would be peanuts
 
12:39     7       compared to what bottom tending trawls would do
 
12:39     8       to the bottom.
 
12:39     9            We have been -- on the council we were very
 
12:39    10       much concerned with bycatch.  This was --
 
12:39    11       particularly came out with respect to the
 
12:39    12       red snapper fishery.
 
12:39    13            It turns out that the single most -- the
 
12:39    14       single greatest impediment to the recovery of a
 
12:40    15       red snapper is the bycatch of juvenile snapper
 
12:40    16       in trawls.  It's about ten times a more
 
12:40    17       important impediment than any other single one.
 
12:40    18            Because bottom tending trawls are very
 
12:40    19       destructive over the bottom, because they're
 
12:40    20       indiscriminate as to what they catch, and you
 
12:40    21       have in your -- in your information that you
 
12:40    22       received earlier, an indication of the small
 
12:40    23       size of the fish that are bycatch.  For all of
 
12:40    24       these reasons, I would recommend that you do
 
12:40    25       support --
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          1            (Secretary Mortham entered the room.)
 
12:40     2            MR. ANTHONY:  -- the rule before you and
 
12:40     3       limit the bottom tending trawls.
 
12:40     4            Thank you.
 
12:40     5            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:40     6            MR. JONES:  Governor and Cabinet, we'll
 
12:40     7       keep our remarks within the time limit that has
 
12:40     8       been allocated.  We'll concentrate strictly on
 
12:40     9       the issue.
 
12:40    10            I would point out though that Dr. Anthony's
 
12:41    11       statement of red snapper bycatch and shrimp
 
12:41    12       trawls is a true statement if you're trawling in
 
12:41    13       Texas or Louisiana.  Red snapper bycatch in
 
12:41    14       shrimp trawls in Florida is nonexistent.
 
12:41    15            So I say that just about every time that we
 
12:41    16       come together because some things are said, and
 
12:41    17       they appear to impact on where we are.  This one
 
12:41    18       doesn't.
 
12:41    19            The last Cabinet meeting, you sent this
 
12:41    20       rule back to the Commission and told them, I
 
12:41    21       thought, to bring you back a fairer rule.  They
 
12:41    22       didn't bring back a fair rule.
 
12:41    23            They did turn out the -- an awesome display
 
12:41    24       of power that I wish we had the ability to do.
 
12:41    25       If we had the ability to get 2,000 letters or
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12:41     1       2,000 telephone calls, we'd feel real good about
 
12:41     2       our ability to do that.  But we can't.  So we're
 
12:41     3       going to depend on you and your position to look
 
12:41     4       at what the real issues are.
 
12:41     5            When we talk about the real issues, we have
 
12:42     6       said over and over again what we want out of a
 
12:42     7       trawl rule.  And I'm going to list the things
 
12:42     8       that we would support.
 
12:42     9            First of all, we support a rule prohibiting
 
12:42    10       fish trawls in all areas that are closed to
 
12:42    11       shrimp trawls.  We support a rule limiting the
 
12:42    12       size of boats that can be used with fish trawls
 
12:42    13       in Florida waters.  We support a rule that
 
12:42    14       limits the size of the fish trawls themself that
 
12:42    15       can be used in Florida waters.  We support a
 
12:42    16       rule that prohibits small mesh fish trawls,
 
12:42    17       which shrimp nets have.
 
12:42    18            We support the prohibition of trawling for
 
12:42    19       nearly all species of finfish, except for bait,
 
12:42    20       mullet, croaker, spot, and whiting.  That's the
 
12:42    21       only species of finfish that we've asked you
 
12:42    22       since this thing has come about.  And it's not
 
12:42    23       to open it for trawling for all these other
 
12:43    24       species of fish that people may think that's
 
12:43    25       what we're talking about.
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12:43     1            We support a rule that establishes quotas,
 
12:43     2       seasons, and limited entry.
 
12:43     3            We support and observe a program.  We
 
12:43     4       support a rule that would require a landing fee
 
12:43     5       for all finfish caught with the proceeds going
 
12:43     6       to scientific research.  Because what the MFC is
 
12:43     7       presenting to you is mostly rhetoric; it is not
 
12:43     8       logical; it is not empirical, scientific data
 
12:43     9       based on the issue of the use of 500 square foot
 
12:43    10       trawls, because none exist.  There is no
 
12:43    11       fisheries that have been using 500 square foot
 
12:43    12       trawls.
 
12:43    13            What happened to fisheries in New England
 
12:43    14       or California or even North Carolina cannot be
 
12:43    15       compared to fishing in nearshore waters of
 
12:43    16       Florida with small 500 square foot nets.  It's
 
12:43    17       apples and it's oranges.
 
12:43    18            We as a class of U.S. citizens are
 
12:44    19       experiencing regulatory genocide.  You have no
 
12:44    20       idea as to the pressures that are beginning to
 
12:44    21       bear down on thousands of Florida families
 
12:44    22       because what's being done here.
 
12:44    23            We ask you not to let the sport fishing and
 
12:44    24       the marine manufacturing lobby make you do
 
12:44    25       something that in your heart you know is wrong.
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12:44     1            Please send this shrimp rule back to the
 
12:44     2       MFC.  Tell them to bring you a fish trawl rule
 
12:44     3       and this rule at the same meeting.  That way you
 
12:44     4       can say, you can do this, you can't do that.
 
12:44     5       Because if you pass this rule, there'll be no
 
12:44     6       fish trawl rule.  There'd be 10,000 red hats.
 
12:44     7       And there'd be senators and there'd be
 
12:44     8       representatives from a variety of counties.
 
12:44     9       We'd never get a fish trawl rule if you pass
 
12:44    10       this.
 
12:44    11            Thank you.
 
12:44    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:44    13            MR. JONES:  The next is Ronnie Crum.
 
12:44    14            MR. CRUM:  Thank you, Governor and
 
12:44    15       Cabinet.
 
12:45    16            What I'd -- what I'd like to make clear,
 
12:45    17       that this is the rule that we're working with.
 
12:45    18       And we hear of fish trawls.  That is not a fish
 
12:45    19       trawl.
 
12:45    20            Governor, the last time Dr. Butterworth
 
12:45    21       said to you, said a trawl with a turtle excluder
 
12:45    22       device in it is not a fish trawl, because you
 
12:45    23       can't catch fish in it.  Do you remember that?
 
12:45    24       And the commotion started here.
 
12:45    25            So we're talking about a shrimp trawl
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12:45     1       only.  And that's the rule.  The only one
 
12:45     2       advertised, and the only one that's being passed
 
12:45     3       here today.
 
12:45     4            I support it, other than some language in
 
12:45     5       it.  I've wrote letters to Dr. Nelson, I take
 
12:45     6       issue with DEP on that they will not effectually
 
12:45     7       enforce the language in it.  They've already
 
12:45     8       arrested eight cases -- I went to the courthouse
 
12:45     9       a few minutes and found them -- on the cause
 
12:45    10       there, if you don't quickly release the alive
 
12:45    11       and unharmed.  These are eight -- I didn't
 
12:45    12       arrest these people.  The judge dismissed them.
 
12:45    13            He clearly stated that the harvest under
 
12:46    14       the old definition is clear, the people --
 
12:46    15       that's why he dismissed them.  But if it had the
 
12:46    16       new definition, as is in this rule referenced by
 
12:46    17       Title 46, these people would be arrested.
 
12:46    18            Dr. Nelson told me there, he says, yes, I
 
12:46    19       agree with you, but it won't be enforced that
 
12:46    20       way.  Well, today when you drive home, you can
 
12:46    21       drive 55, and pretty well assured you won't be
 
12:46    22       arrested.
 
12:46    23            But if we allow stuff like this, then you
 
12:46    24       don't know what to drive.  You drive 75 or 45,
 
12:46    25       it's up to the officer.
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12:46     1            What I ask you today is say no to this
 
12:46     2       rule.  I support every issue of it.  I think it
 
12:46     3       implements the amendment.  You know, my
 
12:46     4       credentials are -- see these catfish fins, not
 
12:46     5       of the shrimp.  I'll be on the boat tonight.
 
12:46     6       I've used these devices.  They are a drastic
 
12:46     7       reduction.
 
12:46     8            All the testimony I've heard in the
 
12:46     9       meetings is a 50 to a 90 percent reduction in
 
12:46    10       bycatch.  What you have by restricting the short
 
12:46    11       nets, you've got a 66 foot opening that's very
 
12:46    12       short with a 30-inch opening for a turtle
 
12:46    13       extruder approximately 5 foot from the end of
 
12:46    14       the net.
 
12:47    15            With the flow of water coming in the inlet
 
12:47    16       quickly -- not the long nets that we used to
 
12:47    17       have, but the area for the water to go out of --
 
12:47    18       you build a turbulence.  And it goes out that
 
12:47    19       30-inch hole and actually soaks the stuff out of
 
12:47    20       the bag and back through the second time.  The
 
12:47    21       fishing industry can handle it.  But what we
 
12:47    22       need is just a good rule.
 
12:47    23            What I'm asking you here today is to think
 
12:47    24       and make sure that the rule says what they say
 
12:47    25       it should say.  It does -- it does not -- it
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12:47     1       does not implement the amendment where there's
 
12:47     2       not going to be massive arrests.
 
12:47     3            Five minutes before they closed the
 
12:47     4       meeting, I testified, and I asked them to change
 
12:47     5       the wording to what they were stating.  They
 
12:47     6       closed the meeting, and within 30 seconds they
 
12:47     7       voted to send it back.
 
12:47     8            Hostility at this Cabinet.  You are my
 
12:47     9       elected officials, not this Cabinet -- not this
 
12:47    10       Commission.  I ask you, protect the people,
 
12:47    11       let's see the law is clean.  This rule is fine,
 
12:47    12       there's no problem, other than the references to
 
12:48    13       Title 46 on bycatch.  It is not a fish trawl.
 
12:48    14            You know, I welcome you to come down and
 
12:48    15       look at it.  And I'll assure you, you're going
 
12:48    16       to see that, hey, it's not a bad device.
 
12:48    17       You know, I'm a conservationist.
 
12:48    18            So I think we have a good rule here, but I
 
12:48    19       ask you to say no to it.
 
12:48    20            MR. PRINGLE:  Governor and Cabinet, I'm
 
12:48    21       Ray Pringle, commercial fisherman.
 
12:48    22            I would ask you to turn this rule down
 
12:48    23       today for a -- many reasons, especially the one
 
12:48    24       that says shrimp only.  The shrimp only rule
 
12:48    25       is -- with that wording in it is going to put a
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12:48     1       lot of people in jeopardy.
 
12:48     2            As the Marine Patrol officer had stated
 
12:48     3       before when we got up here, that there had been
 
12:48     4       no cases made with this type of rule.  But
 
12:48     5       I'm sorry to say that there has been five cases
 
12:48     6       made over in Apalach about these -- these very
 
12:48     7       things that we're talking about with small
 
12:48     8       oysters.  So there is -- there is problems.
 
12:48     9            And it's left up to the discretion of the
 
12:49    10       individual officer as he sees fit to enforce
 
12:49    11       this rule.  If it's on paper, and if you've made
 
12:49    12       a law, and the people -- you're telling the law
 
12:49    13       enforcement officers, well, we've made the law,
 
12:49    14       we don't want you to enforce that law, we want
 
12:49    15       you to look over it, then I think the law is a
 
12:49    16       bad law.
 
12:49    17            There's no sense in making something that
 
12:49    18       jeopardizes even one American.  This is the
 
12:49    19       problem that I have with it.  Is if they make
 
12:49    20       the -- the rule -- the rule says as far as
 
12:49    21       harvest is concerned, if you don't release that
 
12:49    22       alive and unharmed, you've harvested it.
 
12:49    23            Well, if the marine patrol officer comes on
 
12:49    24       board, and you've got five recreational bag
 
12:49    25       limit flounder, and you have five more on the
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12:49     1       deck, and those -- and those fish are dead, then
 
12:49     2       you're in jeopardy of -- of a ticket, or all
 
12:49     3       your equipment being confiscated.
 
12:49     4            So why make a rule that is going to
 
12:49     5       jeopardize any individual.  As a -- as a citizen
 
12:49     6       of this state, I think that there shouldn't be
 
12:50     7       any laws made in a gray area.  It should be
 
12:50     8       black and white.  If you step across that line,
 
12:50     9       then you know you've stepped across it.
 
12:50    10            But it's just like playing football when I
 
12:50    11       was playing football.  If I held somebody, I
 
12:50    12       knew that I was going to get flagged for holding
 
12:50    13       that fellow.  But if the officiator said, well,
 
12:50    14       you know, you can hang on to him by his -- by
 
12:50    15       his foot.  But if you grab him by the arm, I'm
 
12:50    16       going to throw a flag, that's bull feathers.
 
12:50    17            So what needs to be done is something that
 
12:50    18       comes back with a very straight, up forward,
 
12:50    19       clear-cut law that everyone can understand.  And
 
12:50    20       when we go out on the water, I don't have to be
 
12:50    21       worried about what the problems are going to
 
12:50    22       arise because of one individual that don't like
 
12:50    23       me.
 
12:50    24            Thank you.
 
12:50    25            MR. SINGLETON:  Governor and Cabinet, my
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12:50     1       name is Mark Singleton.  I'm with the
 
12:50     2       Mark E. Singleton Corporation.
 
12:50     3            And I want to thank you for the opportunity
 
12:51     4       of being here today.  I don't consider my own
 
12:51     5       self worthy.  My father was a fisherman, my
 
12:51     6       grandfather was also a fisherman.
 
12:51     7            I've had a dream -- I used to walk on the
 
12:51     8       shores of the Atlantic Beach of Florida, and I'd
 
12:51     9       see the little bycatch washed up on shore.  And
 
12:51    10       that dream came to fruition here several years
 
12:51    11       ago when I come in contact with Ray Pringle and
 
         12       Patricia Robbins with Farm and Sea Share.
 
12:51    13       Through a pilot program worked out of Mayport,
 
12:51    14       Florida; University of Florida; Department of
 
12:51    15       Agriculture, and the hungry people of the state
 
12:51    16       of Florida, we've been able to demonstrate that
 
12:51    17       it's no longer bycatch, it's under-utilized
 
12:51    18       species, under-utilized species.
 
12:51    19            We can take the product and give it to
 
12:51    20       hungry people to feed so they could go to bed
 
12:51    21       tonight, or any night, with a full stomach.
 
12:51    22            Voting for this particular rule would
 
12:51    23       considerably wipe out that effort and that
 
12:52    24       potential into the future.  You have a very
 
12:52    25       calm, cool, and collected deceptive move going
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12:52     1       on here behind the scenes to totally, eventually
 
12:52     2       wipe out the shrimp industry in the state of
 
12:52     3       Florida as we know it, included in on that the
 
12:52     4       bycatch which we've demonstrated can be given to
 
12:52     5       poor people, we can -- we even sold some
 
12:52     6       recently in the secondary market.
 
12:52     7            It's no longer bycatch.  It's something
 
12:52     8       that can be used and benefitted from, not just
 
12:52     9       here in Florida, but we could feed hundreds of
 
12:52    10       thousands of millions of people all over the
 
12:52    11       world that are starving.
 
12:52    12            I suggest a -- a pilot -- continued pilot
 
12:52    13       program in Mayport and some of the other coast
 
12:52    14       cities that we can -- we come together as an
 
12:52    15       industry and with government's help to
 
12:52    16       demonstrate that the bycatch is not -- the catch
 
12:52    17       of the bycatch is not diminishing these little
 
12:53    18       species of product.  And I think that the
 
12:53    19       scientific data that's being utilized in some of
 
12:53    20       these areas is false and erroneous.
 
12:53    21            The justification that the Marine Fisheries
 
12:53    22       Commission and the South Atlantic Council, the
 
12:53    23       Gulf Council is using to make the shrimpers no
 
12:53    24       longer pull just a turtle excluder device, but
 
12:53    25       a -- what they call a bycatch excluder device.
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12:53     1       The turtle excluder device already has cut down
 
12:53     2       23 percent of the bycatch anyway.
 
12:53     3            So we're seeking a balance here.  And we
 
12:53     4       thank you and pray for your indulgence to vote
 
12:53     5       against this unnecessary ruling.
 
          6            Thank you very much for allowing me to be
 
12:53     7       here.
 
12:53     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
12:53     9            MR. DESTIN:  Governor and Cabinet, my name
 
12:53    10       is Dewe Destin.  I appreciate the opportunity to
 
12:53    11       be here today to speak to you on this issue.
 
12:53    12            I also appreciate the fact that the
 
12:53    13       Commission has clarified that this rule only
 
12:53    14       applies to bottom tending trawls.  And when we
 
12:53    15       started out, that wasn't clear.
 
12:54    16            I find it very disturbing that less than
 
12:54    17       six months after the net ban, an amendment that
 
12:54    18       devastated a business that my family built over
 
12:54    19       150 years, that I'm back in front of the state
 
12:54    20       asking you not to pass a rule that would take
 
12:54    21       away the small nets specifically allowed by the
 
12:54    22       Constitution of the State of Florida.
 
12:54    23            At the final public hearing on this rule,
 
12:54    24       Mr. Jack Rudloe, a man who's very -- has
 
12:54    25       intimate knowledge of fisheries environment of
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12:54     1       Florida -- fishery environment of Florida, made
 
12:54     2       the following comment:  He told the Commission
 
12:54     3       that to pass this rule after the enactment of
 
12:54     4       the net ban was akin to the victors stalking the
 
12:54     5       battlefield and killing the wounded.  I think
 
12:54     6       it's a pretty good analogy.
 
12:54     7            This rule attempts to regulate fish trawls
 
12:54     8       through a shrimper.  I think it's poor public
 
12:54     9       policy to regulate through the back door.  There
 
12:54    10       is no emergency taking place with fish trawls.
 
12:54    11       No collapse of the species, no dire scientific
 
12:54    12       reports to tell us what's going to happen with
 
12:54    13       these small fish trawls.
 
12:55    14            In fact, the best I can tell, I'm the only
 
12:55    15       person in the state of Florida right now who is
 
12:55    16       trying to catch bait fish with a fish trawl.  So
 
12:55    17       I'm the threat.
 
12:55    18            The MFC says that the trawl that I'm using
 
12:55    19       is exempt from this rule.  The DEP says that I
 
12:55    20       should have a Special Activity License to use
 
12:55    21       this trawl, and that it's illegal for me to use
 
12:55    22       it without.
 
12:55    23            These are the kind of questions that are
 
12:55    24       clouded into this trawl rule.  The definition on
 
12:55    25       what a bottom trawl is is also very murky.
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12:55     1            So I suppose if the Marine Patrol gives me
 
12:55     2       a ticket, I'll try to hire Charlie Shelfer to
 
12:55     3       defend me, because he said I was legal.
 
12:55     4            To compare these small trawls with the
 
12:55     5       large trawls that are used elsewhere in the
 
12:55     6       world is both dishonest and unfair.  It's like
 
12:55     7       saying a 500 pound bomb and a firecracker are
 
12:55     8       the same because they're both explosives.
 
12:55     9            I know you all have been subject to an
 
12:55    10       intensive letter campaign from the FCA on this
 
12:56    11       issue.  And judging from the number of red hats
 
12:56    12       in here today, I see they're doing a full court
 
12:56    13       press.
 
12:56    14            But I think it's very important to remember
 
12:56    15       that these are the people that wrote the net ban
 
12:56    16       amendment, the amendment that was approved by
 
12:56    17       72 percent of the voters of Florida.
 
12:56    18            And that amendment itself specifically
 
12:56    19       allowed these 500 foot fish trawls for the
 
12:56    20       production of seafood.  If these fish trawls
 
12:56    21       were so horrible, why didn't they ban them when
 
12:56    22       they had the opportunity from the amendment.
 
12:56    23            What happened?  What's different?
 
12:56    24            This issue is really about whether the
 
12:56    25       State of Florida will go beyond the limitation
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12:56     1       now in the Constitution on fish trawls.  It's
 
12:56     2       not about otter trawls.  As long as I have
 
12:56     3       5 pounds of shrimp on my boat, I can catch any
 
12:56     4       fish that's legal to catch with an otter trawl.
 
12:56     5       Because they would then be a legal bycatch.
 
12:56     6            This is about whether we will go beyond
 
12:56     7       those restrictions in the Constitution.
 
12:57     8            I don't think that's where we should go.
 
12:57     9       We've taken almost all that the fishermen had
 
12:57    10       away from them.  And to take more would be
 
12:57    11       unfair.
 
         12            Thank you.
 
12:57    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
         14            MR. MacFARLAND:  This is 500 square foot of
 
12:57    15       net, and this is what the will of the people,
 
12:57    16       even these people in the red hats, gave to the
 
12:57    17       fishermen, commercial fishermen, in the state of
 
12:57    18       Florida.
 
12:57    19            They said that these fishermen could use
 
12:57    20       two of these things -- and that's not very big,
 
12:57    21       and you can see it, we can stretch it out here.
 
12:57    22       It's not -- it's just a little old pitiful
 
12:57    23       looking thing.
 
12:57    24            That's what these people are saying that
 
12:57    25       these commercial fishermen can't use.  They're
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12:57     1       not going to decimate the resource like this
 
12:57     2       gentleman ahead of me said a while ago.
 
12:57     3            What we're talking about is thousands of
 
12:57     4       people's jobs in the state of Florida.  We're
 
12:57     5       talking about just in the panhandle alone.  I
 
12:58     6       know how the vote went, but it did not go that
 
12:58     7       way in north Florida.
 
12:58     8            We got -- there was a million and some
 
12:58     9       people that said that they would like to see us
 
12:58    10       use any kind of net we wanted.  But even these
 
12:58    11       people in the red hats said, let these people
 
12:58    12       use two 500 square foot nets any way they see
 
12:58    13       fit.
 
12:58    14            We encouraged our people to stay within the
 
12:58    15       law, we went to court, and right now the
 
12:58    16       Supreme Court hadn't ruled, but we -- looks like
 
12:58    17       we might win to pull these two nets instead of
 
12:58    18       them restricting it 50 percent.
 
12:58    19            So they're passing this shrimp rule to --
 
12:58    20       that they're going to catch you on the bycatch,
 
12:58    21       they don't want you to use -- and you can't use
 
12:58    22       that to decimate a resource with two 500 --
 
12:58    23            What we're talking about is survival for
 
12:58    24       people that are citizens of the state of
 
12:58    25       Florida, not some eastern European country some
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12:58     1       time ago.
 
12:58     2            This is -- these people are American
 
12:58     3       citizens, and they live within 25 to 100 miles
 
12:58     4       of us right here, a great majority of them.  The
 
12:59     5       ones that I represent are in the panhandle of
 
12:59     6       north Florida.
 
12:59     7            So you've taken these people, they've been
 
12:59     8       gut shot with this amendment.  And these people
 
12:59     9       have doing -- and you're letting -- and these
 
12:59    10       people are wanting to knock them in the head
 
12:59    11       with a sledgehammer.
 
12:59    12            I asked y'all to let these fishermen see if
 
12:59    13       they can't -- they cannot -- and talking about
 
12:59    14       killing the grass bottom, everybody -- even the
 
12:59    15       scientists here know the grass in Port St. Joe
 
12:59    16       Bay won't grow in over 10 foot of water because
 
12:59    17       of the turbidity and the sunlight don't get
 
12:59    18       there, so the middle of the bays are barren
 
12:59    19       anyhow, and you're not giving up a plowed
 
12:59    20       fertile field when you go out there and work for
 
12:59    21       a living.
 
12:59    22            So I ask y'all to turn down this rule, give
 
12:59    23       these people a chance to see if they can
 
12:59    24       survive.  If they can catch bait or whatever
 
12:59    25       they can, it's not going to hurt much with two
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12:59     1       of these little bitty nets right here.
 
12:59     2            You cannot -- and you're talking about the
 
12:59     3       survival of thousands of families and people --
 
12:59     4       keeping people off of welfare in the state of
 
12:59     5       Florida.  And a million people did vote for the
 
13:00     6       fishermen, but two point something million said
 
13:00     7       give us this.  Y'all voted to give us this,
 
13:00     8       leave us alone and let us have it.
 
          9            I thank you very much.
 
13:00    10            MR. SANSOM:  I'll be very brief, Governor.
 
13:00    11            Governor, members of the Cabinet, I'm
 
13:00    12       Jerry Sansom, Executive Director of the
 
13:00    13       Organized Fishermen of Florida.
 
13:00    14            I think Mr. Jones put it very clearly as to
 
13:00    15       what the issues are here.  Mr. Destin laid out
 
13:00    16       the realities of the situation.  And
 
13:00    17       Mr. Floyd -- Mr. MacFarland pointed out to you
 
13:00    18       the size of these nets that we're talking
 
13:00    19       about.  They couldn't have decimated the
 
13:00    20       New England ground fish fisheries with that
 
13:00    21       net.
 
         22            The Alaskan pollack fishery wouldn't have
 
13:00    23       had a problem if they'd have used that net.
 
13:00    24            Unfortunately, this rule, and it -- we feel
 
13:00    25       it very strange that we're talking about
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13:00     1       regulating trawls for everything other than
 
13:01     2       shrimp in a shrimp rule.  How can that be done?
 
13:01     3       When a fisherman goes to look and see what kind
 
13:01     4       of net he can fish with, is he going to look in
 
13:01     5       the shrimp rules to see if he can use a trawl to
 
13:01     6       catch fish with?
 
13:01     7            No.  He's going to go to gear rules, or
 
13:01     8       he's going to go to the fishing rules.  And
 
13:01     9       there it's not going to say he can't use a
 
13:01    10       trawl.  One word in a shrimping rule is meant to
 
13:01    11       imply that this gear can be used only to catch
 
13:01    12       shrimp.
 
13:01    13            But the funny thing, folks, is that if we
 
13:01    14       use small mesh shrimp trawls, we can catch all
 
13:01    15       the fish we want.  There -- they've told you
 
13:01    16       that if we use shrimp gear, we can keep all the
 
13:01    17       finfish we want that are within the limits of
 
13:01    18       the finfish rules.
 
13:01    19            But we don't want to use those small mesh
 
13:01    20       shrimp trawls to catch finfish with.  It creates
 
13:02    21       a higher bycatch.  The materials the Fish
 
13:02    22       Commission provided to you on the percentage of
 
13:02    23       small fish and trawls, et cetera, those were
 
13:02    24       from small mesh shrimp trawls.  We don't want to
 
13:02    25       use those.  We don't want to catch those small
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13:02     1       fish.
 
13:02     2            We want to be able to use dedicated
 
13:02     3       designed gear to catch the larger fish that we
 
13:02     4       can sell.  That's all we want to catch.  And
 
13:02     5       this rule would require us to use the small mesh
 
13:02     6       shrimp trawls to catch finfish.  Now, that's
 
13:02     7       just wrong.
 
13:02     8            Unfortunately, this whole fish trawl issue
 
13:02     9       is simply a continuation of the deception
 
13:02    10       brought before the people of the state of
 
13:02    11       Florida a year ago when they said then they were
 
13:02    12       limiting nets.  Now after the vote, you hear
 
13:02    13       them say, that was an issue to ban nets.
 
13:02    14            Every time we said before November the 8th
 
13:02    15       there was an issue to ban nets, they said, no,
 
13:02    16       it's not.  No, it's not.  It's just limiting
 
13:02    17       finfishing.
 
13:03    18            It's so funny that if -- if the fish trawl
 
13:03    19       is the most devastating piece of equipment in a
 
13:03    20       commercial inventory, which I've heard them say,
 
13:03    21       why didn't they outlaw that.  Why did they allow
 
13:03    22       500 square foot shrimp -- the trawls in the
 
13:03    23       amendment, and outlaw what they're now saying is
 
13:03    24       more selective gear, like gill nets and trammel
 
13:03    25       nets, et cetera.
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13:03     1            Why did they outlaw those, and leave these,
 
13:03     2       if, in fact, this is the most devastating piece
 
13:03     3       of gear.
 
13:03     4            We think you guys are -- and ladies are
 
13:03     5       being misled, we're sorry that y'all are in this
 
13:03     6       position having to do that.  The shrimp are
 
13:03     7       protected, as you know, and was explained at the
 
13:03     8       aides' meeting, the shrimp rule remains in place
 
13:03     9       as long as litigation is out there, and it's out
 
13:03    10       there.
 
13:03    11            There's absolutely no reason that y'all
 
13:03    12       can't direct the Fish Commission to withdraw
 
13:03    13       this rule or defer it, bring it back to you
 
13:04    14       along with this fish trawl rule that they say
 
13:04    15       they're developing.  Because I'm afraid I agree
 
13:04    16       with Mr. Jones.  If y'all don't, if y'all
 
13:04    17       approve this rule here today, you will never see
 
13:04    18       a meaningful fish trawl rule come back to you.
 
13:04    19       It just -- they just won't get around to it.
 
13:04    20            We appreciate the opportunity, and wish
 
13:04    21       y'all would please defer this, tell them to
 
13:04    22       bring it back to you with the fish trawl rule,
 
13:04    23       and let's compare the two.  Because since this
 
13:04    24       supposedly prohibits fish trawls, they're going
 
13:04    25       to have to bring this rule back to you in order
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13:04     1       to clear up the inconsistency between this rule
 
13:04     2       and a rule that would allow fish nets.  Have
 
13:04     3       them do it all.
 
13:04     4            Thank you very much.
 
13:04     5            MR. FORSGREN:  Thank you, Governor.
 
13:04     6            We'll conclude our remarks with just three
 
13:04     7       speakers.  And the first is Captain Tim McOsker,
 
13:04     8       who is president of the Florida Guides
 
13:04     9       Association.
 
13:04    10            MR. McOSKER:  Good morning, Governor,
 
13:04    11       Cabinet.  Just to make something right, I'm
 
13:05    12       Captain Tim McOsker, I am the secretary of the
 
13:05    13       Florida Guides Association.
 
13:05    14            And I'm here with the Florida Guides
 
13:05    15       Association position on finfish trawling.  And
 
13:05    16       I'm going to read a short statement.
 
13:05    17            The Florida Guides Association is the
 
13:05    18       state's largest, with 85 full-time guide
 
13:05    19       members, and 123 related recreational fishery
 
13:05    20       business associate members.
 
13:05    21            The Florida Guides Association is a
 
13:05    22       nonprofit Florida corporation dedicated to
 
13:05    23       monitoring and shaping critical fisheries
 
13:05    24       decisions by becoming a political voice for
 
13:05    25       concerned professional Florida fishing guides.
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13:05     1            The Florida Guides Association strongly
 
13:05     2       supports the Florida Marine Fisheries
 
13:05     3       Commission's decision on limiting trawls to
 
13:05     4       shrimp only in state waters.  We urge the
 
13:05     5       Governor and the Cabinet to have faith in the
 
13:05     6       MFC, which they appointed, to research and
 
13:05     7       recommend fishery policy.
 
13:05     8            We also urge the Governor and Cabinet to
 
13:05     9       reflect on the spirit, rather than the letter of
 
13:05    10       law in regards to the Save Our Sea Life
 
13:05    11       constitutional amendment which carried
 
13:05    12       72 percent of Florida voters last November.
 
13:06    13            Florida's natural marine resources are a
 
13:06    14       public trust, owned by all the people of
 
13:06    15       Florida, and the people spoke with the SOS
 
13:06    16       amendment that destructive commercial fishing
 
13:06    17       practices that lead to collapse of the resource
 
13:06    18       will not be tolerated.
 
13:06    19            Finfish trawling has had a disastrous
 
13:06    20       effect in other areas of the United States and
 
13:06    21       the world.  Shrimp trawling as it exists in
 
13:06    22       Florida is already a highly questionable
 
13:06    23       practice with destructive bycatch problems.
 
13:06    24            And with this in mind, we strongly suggest
 
13:06    25       that as stewards of the public trust, and a
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13:06     1       precious state resource, that you do not bend to
 
13:06     2       special interests, no matter how compelling the
 
13:06     3       human interest, by allowing fish -- finfish
 
13:06     4       trawling in Florida.
 
13:06     5            Thank you.
 
13:06     6            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
13:06     7            MR. GLUCKMAN:  Governor, members of the
 
13:06     8       Cabinet, my name is David Gluckman.  I'm here on
 
13:06     9       behalf of the Florida League of Anglers.  The
 
         10       Board of Directors and Florida League of Anglers
 
13:06    11       supports the shrimp trawl rule as drafted with
 
13:07    12       the restrictions that are contained in it, and
 
13:07    13       also support the trout rule which is coming up
 
13:07    14       in the future.
 
13:07    15            Just to spend a few minutes to talk about
 
13:07    16       the fact that a process has been started here
 
13:07    17       which will allow the induction into Florida of a
 
13:07    18       new type of fishery.  The Commission is looking
 
13:07    19       at the two different rules to allow trawls in
 
13:07    20       certain locations.
 
13:07    21            The problems that you're facing here is
 
13:07    22       that this is a brand new fishery.  We have had
 
13:07    23       experiences in the past 20, 30, 40, 50 years
 
13:07    24       where government has intervened to support
 
13:07    25       commercial fisheries, and have caused enormous
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13:07     1       economic hardship and harm.  And this is another
 
13:07     2       one of those areas where potentially the same
 
13:07     3       thing can happen.
 
13:07     4            I'd just like to point your attention to
 
13:07     5       what happened with the trout -- with the shark
 
13:07     6       fishery and that -- that was developed in this
 
13:07     7       country about 15, 20 years ago where -- where
 
13:07     8       the commercial fishing industry had had problems
 
13:07     9       and overfished a number of resources.  They were
 
13:08    10       directed by the government, in fact, encouraged
 
13:08    11       to go into the taking of sharks.
 
13:08    12            And we are now discovering these people --
 
13:08    13       these massive investments in capital are now
 
13:08    14       discovering that they've outfished the sharks,
 
13:08    15       sharks are not a fish that ought to have been
 
13:08    16       fished, they reproduce in ways that we are
 
13:08    17       probably going to lose them and have some type
 
13:08    18       of major ecological catastrophe if we are not
 
13:08    19       even more careful in the future.
 
13:08    20            This is an example of where people said,
 
13:08    21       you know, you've hurt us economically, we've run
 
13:08    22       out of these fish, we need other fish, and
 
13:08    23       you're directing us into this new fishery.
 
13:08    24            By passing the shrimp trawl rule, you have
 
13:08    25       restricted and not, in fact, allowed them to
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13:08     1       move into this new fishery until such time as
 
13:08     2       the Commission has an opportunity to go through
 
13:08     3       and look at -- at factually what's going to
 
13:08     4       happen.
 
13:08     5            The cannonball jellyfish fishery is the one
 
13:08     6       that -- it looks so easy on its -- on its face.
 
13:08     7       You know, there are more cannonball jellyfish
 
13:08     8       out there than we've ever seen, we can get as
 
13:08     9       many as we -- you know, 10 minutes we can fill
 
13:08    10       up a shipload.
 
13:08    11            But when you ask somebody, how many
 
13:08    12       cannonball jellyfish are there in the Gulf of
 
13:08    13       Mexico, how do they reproduce, what's going to
 
13:08    14       happen when you harvest during this period of
 
13:09    15       time, how many -- you know, how many are you
 
13:09    16       going to harvest?  What type of markets are
 
13:09    17       going to develop to force us to do that.  That
 
13:09    18       information is not there.
 
13:09    19            And so my suggestion to you is that the
 
13:09    20       process is there and available, and that each of
 
13:09    21       you, if you can spare them -- I know they're not
 
13:09    22       going to thank me for this -- should send your
 
13:09    23       aides down to listen to the hours upon hours of
 
13:09    24       information that's going to come before the
 
13:09    25       Marine Fisheries Commission over the next few
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13:09     1       months when they begin to consider this
 
13:09     2       process.
 
13:09     3            So that you can sort through some of the
 
13:09     4       conflicting information that you're going to
 
13:09     5       receive, which is going to be enormous.
 
13:09     6            And we would thank you so much for your
 
13:09     7       consideration, be happy to answer any
 
13:09     8       questions.  But overall, we suggest that you
 
13:09     9       allow the process to continue to work so that we
 
13:09    10       at least can proactively try to protect some of
 
13:09    11       these resources, which has been quite different
 
13:09    12       than what we've done in the past in this
 
13:09    13       particular area.
 
13:09    14            Thank you, Governor.
 
13:09    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
13:09    16            MR. FORSGREN:  Thank you, Governor and
 
13:09    17       members of the Cabinet.
 
13:10    18            I think that in this process in the time
 
13:10    19       since August, we've been able to isolate and
 
13:10    20       focus on the issue here and the issue of the
 
13:10    21       bottom dragging fish trawls, the type that we
 
13:10    22       feel are very wasteful and destructive.
 
13:10    23            I think that the Commission has worked
 
13:10    24       overtime in gathering all available
 
13:10    25       information.  And all available information that
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13:10     1       we've seen, the evidence shows that, yes,
 
13:10     2       indeed, these are the wasteful form of gear.
 
13:10     3            And I think we all believe that when the
 
13:10     4       citizens voted on the amendment to limit net
 
13:10     5       fishing gear, that the clear intent was not to
 
13:10     6       have one gear substituted by something that was
 
13:10     7       possibly even worse.
 
13:10     8            The industry spokesmen have talked about
 
13:10     9       redesigning the nets, putting larger mesh sizes
 
13:10    10       in, and somehow changing what was there so it's
 
13:10    11       not like a shrimp trawl.  Well, that's what's
 
13:10    12       been done in other areas of the country.
 
13:10    13            And we're not saying that what happened in
 
13:10    14       North Carolina and New England is the exact same
 
13:10    15       net that's going to be here.  But it's the same
 
13:10    16       basic type of gear.  And we feel that it would
 
13:11    17       be very detrimental to Florida waters to come in
 
13:11    18       here.
 
13:11    19            Another issue that's come up is the ball of
 
13:11    20       net, 500 square foot of mesh area, how can that
 
13:11    21       possibly cause a problem.  That is the limit to
 
13:11    22       the size of the net inside of 3 miles on the
 
13:11    23       Gulf, and inside of 1 mile on the Atlantic.
 
13:11    24            Outside of that area, in fully two-thirds
 
13:11    25       of Florida's coastal waters, the constitutional
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13:11     1       amendment has no limit to the size or the amount
 
13:11     2       of nonentanglement nets.  So, in fact, the same
 
13:11     3       type of net that's used in North Carolina could
 
13:11     4       be used there without further restrictions.
 
13:11     5            The other is the -- the language of the
 
13:11     6       amendment, what it says, and what it doesn't
 
13:11     7       say.  And one thing it does say is that -- and
 
13:11     8       the purpose statement is to reduce -- is to
 
13:11     9       prevent unnecessary killing, overfishing, and
 
13:11    10       waste.
 
13:11    11            And we think that this particular proposal
 
13:11    12       is a good one.  I think the Commission has
 
13:11    13       addressed concerns that each of you have in
 
13:11    14       separating out the jellyfish issue, it doesn't
 
13:11    15       affect that emerging fishery in coming back and
 
13:12    16       looking at other types of top water trawls that
 
13:12    17       don't have the problems with bait fish.
 
13:12    18            And I'd like to say that there's also
 
13:12    19       strong editorial support for what the Commission
 
13:12    20       is doing.  I think you've seen copies of the
 
13:12    21       Tampa Tribune and the Palm Beach Post
 
13:12    22       editorial.
 
13:12    23            And I'd just like to close with -- with one
 
13:12    24       thing:  And that is that I think all of us who
 
13:12    25       work so long and hard in the adoption of the
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13:12     1       Save Our Sea Life Constitutional amendment were
 
13:12     2       very pleased to see the strong vote that came
 
13:12     3       out.
 
13:12     4            We think that that was a message from
 
13:12     5       the -- from the people of Florida, in fact, the
 
13:12     6       mandate for stronger and better marine
 
13:12     7       conservation laws.  And that is what we believe
 
13:12     8       is embodied in this rule of the Commission, and
 
13:12     9       we would respectfully request that you approve
 
13:12    10       their rule.
 
13:12    11            Thank you.
 
13:12    12            DR. NELSON:  Thank you.
 
13:12    13            If I could just briefly address a couple
 
13:12    14       points that I think need to be just clarified.
 
13:13    15            One again.  I can't quite understand the
 
13:13    16       confusion.  But the issue of bycatch is not
 
13:13    17       going to be changed by this rule.  Mr. Sansom
 
13:13    18       did mention the idea of why if we can -- you're
 
13:13    19       going for shrimp, we can catch the little fish;
 
13:13    20       and we're going for fish, we can't.
 
13:13    21            Well, this state, the state of Florida, as
 
13:13    22       well as all our sister states in this region and
 
13:13    23       the federal government in this region, have been
 
13:13    24       working very hard over the last four years
 
13:13    25       spending taxpayers' money to try to work
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13:13     1       carefully and slowly with the shrimping industry
 
13:13     2       to come up with devices that can be used in
 
13:13     3       shrimp trawls that will not reduce the shrimp
 
13:13     4       catch, but will reduce the finfish catch.
 
13:13     5            We have proceeded very slowly, largely
 
13:13     6       because of what we saw happen with the TEDs, an
 
13:13     7       issue that was sort of pressed on the industry
 
13:13     8       and didn't get a lot of compliance or
 
13:13     9       acceptance.  We are now -- this Commission, and
 
13:13    10       our sister states in the Atlantic, will be
 
13:13    11       bringing up regulations effective this spring
 
13:13    12       that will have devices, three separate devices,
 
13:13    13       that the shrimpers may choose from that will go
 
13:13    14       into their nets that will reduce up to
 
13:14    15       50 percent or more of the finfish.
 
13:14    16            These fish are taken -- are small fish that
 
13:14    17       are -- that other fishermen and other fisheries,
 
13:14    18       commercial and recreational, would like to wait
 
13:14    19       for and see grow up.
 
13:14    20            I think we will come in here with this rule
 
13:14    21       before you all without a word of opposition from
 
13:14    22       the shrimping industry.  At this point, they are
 
13:14    23       quite happy with the devices, and they're going
 
13:14    24       to work.  So we want to get the small fish out
 
13:14    25       of the shrimp nets.
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13:14     1            Then the issue is, if we can get these
 
13:14     2       small spot, croaker, and whiting out of the
 
13:14     3       shrimp nets so they're not killed as juveniles,
 
13:14     4       we have the opportunity to let them go at --
 
13:14     5       leave marketable sizes with some value, and look
 
13:14     6       at the other potentials and other potential gear
 
13:14     7       that might take them.
 
13:14     8            But these species in this state, their
 
13:14     9       landings have declined dramatically over the
 
13:14    10       last ten or twelve years.  It wasn't due to gill
 
13:14    11       nets, it was because -- it has been because of
 
13:14    12       the bycatch, the inadvertent catch and mortality
 
13:14    13       of small fish on trawls.
 
13:14    14            And just on the -- there's nobody in our
 
13:14    15       staff who would contend that the vessels fishing
 
13:15    16       in Alaska or the Georges Banks in New England
 
13:15    17       are equivalent to vessels or problems we might
 
13:15    18       encounter in Florida.  I mean, that's not --
 
13:15    19       it's not a logical assertion.
 
13:15    20            However, the vessels fishing in
 
13:15    21       North Carolina are almost exactly what we would
 
13:15    22       anticipate seeing outside of the 1 and 3 miles
 
13:15    23       in North Carolina.  And we think that that's not
 
13:15    24       a far reach to use that data to try to get an
 
13:15    25       idea of what might happen here.
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13:15     1            I'll be certainly happy to answer any
 
13:15     2       questions here.
 
13:15     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Question.
 
13:15     4            TREASURER NELSON:  Could you ask the
 
13:15     5       representative from the Marine Patrol to come
 
13:15     6       up, and let's --
 
13:15     7            DR. NELSON:  Yeah.  Captain Richard is
 
13:15     8       still here.
 
13:15     9            TREASURER NELSON:  The issue was raised I
 
13:15    10       believe by one of the speakers, Mr. Pringle,
 
13:15    11       that he is concerned that you drag out the net,
 
13:15    12       there are fish in there, they've been caught,
 
13:15    13       they may be stunned, they may be dead, they may
 
13:15    14       be alive, and they're throwing them over.
 
13:15    15            The Marine Patrol comes along and then
 
13:15    16       starts fining them because these fish are in the
 
13:15    17       net.
 
13:16    18            Would you address that issue?
 
13:16    19            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  The rule, as I understand
 
13:16    20       it, defines harvest not only as the catching the
 
13:16    21       fish, but as reducing them to possession.  It
 
13:16    22       then goes on to say that fish that are returned
 
13:16    23       to the water alive and unharmed are not
 
13:16    24       harvested.
 
13:16    25            That doesn't eliminate that element that
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13:16     1       would have to be proven in court beyond and to
 
13:16     2       the exclusion of every reasonable doubt that
 
13:16     3       they were reduced to possession.  That element
 
13:16     4       remains in the definition of harvest, and it
 
13:16     5       doesn't change what is going on presently.
 
13:16     6            I heard the speaker say that there were
 
13:16     7       eight cases -- one person said eight, one person
 
13:16     8       said five -- concerning this -- arrests for
 
13:16     9       keeping fish or for having fish on the deck
 
13:16    10       sorting them.  I would need to look at those
 
13:16    11       cases.  I have not heard of these before today.
 
13:16    12       And I would like to see the facts on that.
 
13:17    13            Because if the fish were on the deck, then
 
13:17    14       those persons should not have been arrested, and
 
13:17    15       we need to address that with the enforcement
 
13:17    16       personnel in the field.
 
13:17    17            If the fish were reduced to possession, if
 
13:17    18       they were iced down, if they were -- some other
 
13:17    19       way stored, if there was evidence of an intent
 
13:17    20       to keep those fish, then they were lawfully and
 
13:17    21       properly arrested, and that would be a very fact
 
13:17    22       specific determination on each of the cases.
 
13:17    23            And I'll be glad to hang around and meet
 
13:17    24       with that speaker and look at those cases with
 
13:17    25       him.  And if there is some additional training
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13:17     1       that needs to be done, or if there is some
 
13:17     2       supervisory correction that needs to be made, we
 
13:17     3       can handle that.  But it's not a problem with
 
13:17     4       the rule.
 
13:17     5            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  Now, let me ask
 
13:17     6       you:  What the speaker said was you're dragging
 
13:17     7       this net, and let's say, you've got ten fish in
 
13:18     8       the net that are all dead.  All right.  What
 
13:18     9       does the fisherman do with the dead fish?
 
13:18    10            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  He throws them back in
 
13:18    11       the water.
 
13:18    12            TREASURER NELSON:  In the water.
 
13:18    13            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  That's correct.
 
13:18    14            TREASURER NELSON:  Okay.  How do you
 
13:18    15       address the issue that another speaker raised,
 
13:18    16       there's a fish that's dead, why not give that to
 
13:18    17       the poor?
 
13:18    18            Why throw the fish back into the water if
 
13:18    19       the fish is already dead?
 
13:18    20            DR. NELSON:  Commissioner Nelson, I think
 
13:18    21       perhaps maybe I could address that for you.
 
13:18    22            The net -- this has been an issue that's
 
13:18    23       been raised repeatedly with the question of
 
13:18    24       bycatch.
 
13:18    25            The problem with bycatch is that in the
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13:18     1       case of fisheries that affect Florida fishermen,
 
13:18     2       right now there is good, solid scientific
 
13:18     3       documentation, over four years of work, that
 
13:18     4       shows that -- a red snapper fisherman -- and
 
13:18     5       Mr. Jones is exactly right, we don't have a
 
13:18     6       problem with bycatch in most of Florida waters,
 
13:18     7       except a little bit out west with the red
 
13:18     8       snapper.  The problems that are expressed to us,
 
13:18     9       and our fishermen fishing our Pensacola and
 
13:19    10       Panama City who rely on those, and commercial
 
13:19    11       fishermen are suffering because of that bycatch,
 
13:19    12       they're working in the Gulf under a quota of
 
13:19    13       4 million pounds, when if we could eliminate the
 
13:19    14       80 percent of every gear class of fish that are
 
13:19    15       killed in shrimp bycatch by commercial fishermen
 
13:19    16       in Florida and the rest of the Gulf, we'd be
 
13:19    17       talking about 14 or 16 million pounds.
 
13:19    18            But we have red snapper, we have bluefish,
 
         19       weakfish, king mackerel, Spanish mackerel.
 
         20       Forget about the recreational that go to the
 
13:19    21       fishery.  The commercial proponents of all these
 
13:19    22       fisheries are living under quotas, and because
 
13:19    23       the fish that are killed, before they get old,
 
13:19    24       before they can reproduce, is bycatch.  Because
 
13:19    25       they are dying, the quotas that are available to
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13:19     1       those commercial sectors are seriously reduced.
 
13:19     2            If we can get these fish out, to the extent
 
13:19     3       that we can get them out and let them grow,
 
13:19     4       they're going to grow and become a value to
 
13:19     5       these other fishermen.
 
13:19     6            And the issue about what do you do?  If the
 
13:19     7       fish is dead, do you let them keep it?  I think
 
13:19     8       that's probably something that's plagued people
 
13:19     9       who are in fish and wildlife since the
 
13:19    10       beginning.  I mean, anywhere you go, you can
 
13:20    11       say, well, I caught the trout, it's too small,
 
13:20    12       my bluegill's too small, or my bass.  Or, well,
 
13:20    13       I didn't realize that duck was out of season,
 
13:20    14       but it's already dead.  Do you let people keep
 
13:20    15       it, or not?
 
13:20    16            And I think it's just -- it's a very
 
13:20    17       pragmatic matter, once you start allowing --
 
13:20    18       making allowances for people to keep things
 
13:20    19       because they happen to be dead when you -- come
 
13:20    20       into your possession, you find that more and
 
13:20    21       more stuff that comes into possession is dead.
 
         22            I'm afraid -- I mean, that's -- and that
 
13:20    23       doesn't deal with anybody of any -- any specific
 
13:20    24       orientation or desire or profession.  That's
 
13:20    25       just a basic matter of human -- human nature I'm
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13:20     1       afraid.
 
13:20     2            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Okay.  Any other
 
13:20     3       questions?
 
13:20     4            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes, sir.  I'd just
 
13:20     5       like to make a comment.  I appreciate
 
13:20     6       Captain Richard's clear, I believe, articulation
 
13:20     7       of the policy on bycatch.  And I presume that is
 
13:20     8       the policy with reference to bycatch.
 
13:20     9            Then I have a question.  One of the
 
13:21    10       speakers referenced DEP, and a special license,
 
13:21    11       and the requirement for a special license.  I
 
13:21    12       presume that was in reference to a license for
 
13:21    13       cannonball jellyfish or for bait fish.
 
13:21    14            Was that an accurate statement by that
 
13:21    15       speaker?
 
13:21    16            DR. NELSON:  Mr. Milligan, I -- I don't --
 
13:21    17       his -- the statement was in reference to a small
 
13:21    18       surface trawl of 500 square feet or less.
 
13:21    19            It's not our understanding that he needs a
 
13:21    20       Special Activity License for that.  But I have
 
13:21    21       already asked my general counsel to get together
 
13:21    22       with the Division Director and try to figure out
 
13:21    23       if there is something going on there.
 
13:21    24            But it's our understanding that it's --
 
13:21    25       it's a legal gear, it's not prohibited
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13:21     1       anywhere.  In fact, there is no mention in any
 
13:21     2       rules of what gear can or can't be used for bait
 
13:21     3       fish.  But I think that's something that's been
 
13:21     4       extremely --
 
13:21     5            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You are suggesting
 
13:21     6       then that that was a misstatement.
 
13:21     7            DR. NELSON:  I don't believe Mr. Destin
 
13:21     8       misstated.  I think that maybe he has been told
 
13:21     9       or thought he had to have a license.  But it's
 
13:21    10       my belief that that's something that we can
 
13:21    11       straighten out.  Because I don't -- I don't
 
13:21    12       believe that that is a -- that is a
 
13:22    13       requirement.  But we certainly will work on that
 
13:22    14       as soon as we leave this room.
 
13:22    15            MR. DESTIN:  Ask DEP, they're here today.
 
13:22    16            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes.  Would you care
 
13:22    17       to comment?  DEP?
 
         18            MR. CONKLIN:  My name is Ed Conklin, I'm
 
13:22    19       Director of Marine Resources for DEP.
 
13:22    20            That's our interpretation of the rule,
 
13:22    21       General.
 
13:22    22            We'd be -- we'd be glad to work with the
 
13:22    23       Commission on clarifying it, and it's a matter
 
13:22    24       of what we believe it says, it's not necessarily
 
13:22    25       what we believe it ought to say.  But that's
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13:22     1       what we believe it says.
 
13:22     2            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  You believe it --
 
          3            MR. CONKLIN:  We have --
 
13:22     4            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- says they must
 
13:22     5       have a license.
 
13:22     6            MR. CONKLIN:  Yes, sir.  Our interpretation
 
13:22     7       is that if the Marine Fisheries Commission rules
 
13:22     8       do not specifically allow an activity, that that
 
13:22     9       activity requires a license in order for
 
13:22    10       innovative gear to be tried that's not
 
13:22    11       specifically authorized.
 
13:22    12            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Well, I for one, am
 
13:22    13       certainly getting mixed signals.  On one hand, I
 
13:22    14       hear that license is not required by the
 
13:22    15       authorities that are putting together the rule;
 
13:23    16       and then, of course, I hear from you that a
 
13:23    17       license is required.
 
13:23    18            MR. CONKLIN:  Well, what we have here is a
 
13:23    19       circumstance from our perspective that we
 
13:23    20       believe that the process -- if that's the -- the
 
13:23    21       concern, the process has not inhibited
 
13:23    22       development of the gear or utilization of a
 
13:23    23       license to try something in the case of
 
13:23    24       Mr. Destin and others, except for those
 
13:23    25       particular pieces of gear that are
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13:23     1       constitutionally prohibited.
 
13:23     2            For example, use of gear that is larger
 
13:23     3       than 500 square feet inside waters -- inside the
 
13:23     4       3 mile limit.  For example, the cannonball
 
13:23     5       Special Activity License was granted by the
 
13:23     6       Department, and the cannonball jellyfish project
 
13:23     7       moved forward.  So the process was not an --
 
13:23     8            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yeah.  But the
 
13:23     9       inference is that a license would not be
 
13:23    10       required based on this rule.  And it does bother
 
13:24    11       me that we have a system that says because it
 
13:24    12       isn't allowed specifically, that, therefore, you
 
13:24    13       must get a license to do it.
 
13:24    14            I mean, that's just -- goes against the
 
13:24    15       very nature of -- of me, anyway.
 
13:24    16            DR. NELSON:  General, as I said again,
 
13:24    17       I think this is something that is a question of
 
13:24    18       interpretation.  Mr. Conklin said that if a rule
 
13:24    19       does not specifically allow a gear, then it's
 
13:24    20       got to have a Special Activity License.  But we
 
13:24    21       have no rules whatsoever that address bait fish,
 
13:24    22       nor have we ever.
 
13:24    23            And people have been harvesting bait fish
 
13:24    24       on and on in this state.  So I -- I'm not quite
 
13:24    25       sure what it is here.  But my guess is that --
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13:24     1       that -- if that were the case, then every -- all
 
13:24     2       harvested bait fish in this state that's been
 
13:24     3       going on over the last five years would have had
 
13:24     4       to have a license.
 
13:24     5            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Absolutely.
 
          6            DR. NELSON:  And I don't believe that's the
 
13:24     7       case, sir.  And I -- I can only give you my
 
13:24     8       commitment that whether it is a matter of -- of
 
13:24     9       interpretation or figuring it out, or is it
 
13:24    10       making -- or is it a matter of actually changing
 
13:24    11       something that's written in a rule, I will give
 
13:25    12       you my commitment to proceed with that.  But I
 
13:25    13       have a very strong belief that it's something
 
13:25    14       that we can --
 
13:25    15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Could I --
 
         16            DR. NELSON:  -- figure out by sitting down
 
         17       and talking it out.
 
13:25    18            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I would like to --
 
         19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I would suggest to
 
         20       you --
 
13:25    21            I'm sorry.
 
13:25    22            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  -- acknowledge your
 
13:25    23       cooperation in working with myself and my
 
13:25    24       staff.  And you certainly have tried to clarify
 
13:25    25       this issue, and I appreciate it.
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13:25     1            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I was just going to
 
13:25     2       suggest a certain urgency to that in light of
 
13:25     3       the fact that it does affect people's
 
13:25     4       livelihoods, that we apparently have two groups
 
13:25     5       that are working toward the same end who have an
 
13:25     6       interpretation problem.
 
13:25     7            And I think -- I recognize the
 
13:25     8       interpretation problem, but I also recognize the
 
13:25     9       urgency to reach some sort of an agreement on
 
13:25    10       what the appropriate interpretation of that is.
 
13:25    11            DR. NELSON:  And I can again share with you
 
13:25    12       my commitment.  I believe it's something that
 
13:25    13       can be resolved fairly quickly.  I'll be working
 
13:25    14       on it.  As soon as we have an opportunity to
 
13:25    15       leave today.
 
13:25    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  I also --
 
13:25    17            And then I'll finish up.
 
13:25    18            -- also want to thank the Captain.  I am
 
13:26    19       most concerned about that enforcement issue as
 
13:26    20       well.  I would request, at least from my office,
 
13:26    21       a six-month status report on the number of
 
13:26    22       arrests for violation of that particular caveat
 
13:26    23       of the rule, just so that we can look at it and
 
13:26    24       see if, in fact, we feel as though there is
 
13:26    25       additional training required.
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13:26     1            If there, indeed, are interpretation
 
13:26     2       problems relative to enforcement, Captain, on
 
13:26     3       that issue.  Because that's another part that
 
13:26     4       does affect people and people's livelihoods.
 
13:26     5            And I know with arrests, that there --
 
13:26     6       regardless of what some people think, that there
 
13:26     7       is always a way to create a black and white law
 
13:26     8       when it comes to arrests and arrest powers,
 
13:26     9       don't we all wish it were that easy with all
 
13:26    10       laws.  But there's always going to be some
 
13:26    11       interpretation that has to be considered when it
 
13:26    12       comes to enforcement.  And I'm very sensitive to
 
13:26    13       that, as obviously you are.
 
13:26    14            But I would be very interested in a
 
13:26    15       six-month update on where we are with that
 
13:26    16       enforcement issue to see if we're headed in the
 
13:27    17       right direction.
 
13:27    18            CAPTAIN RICHARD:  Yes, sir.  I'll make sure
 
13:27    19       you get that.
 
13:27    20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thank you, Captain.
 
13:27    21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Just kind of summing up
 
13:27    22       now.  As I understand it, what we're talking
 
13:27    23       about now at least is the -- preventing the rule
 
13:27    24       of that trawling on the bottom.  Is that
 
13:27    25       correct?
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13:27     1            DR. NELSON:  In a directed effort to
 
13:27     2       harvest finfish, yes, sir.
 
13:27     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  In a directed -- does not
 
13:27     4       prevent the taking of jellyfish or these other
 
13:27     5       things in the -- in the --
 
13:27     6            DR. NELSON:  No.  If one were to use a
 
13:27     7       frame net or push nets or seines or other nets,
 
13:27     8       midwater trawls, other nets that don't tend the
 
13:27     9       bottom, that float down from the surface and
 
13:27    10       fish the upper part of the water column, they
 
13:27    11       are not affected by this rule.
 
13:27    12            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  But, Governor, there
 
13:27    13       is an inference that they need a license to do
 
13:27    14       that.  That's all I'm saying.
 
13:27    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Well, we hope to get that
 
13:27    16       cleared up.
 
13:27    17            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  Yes, sir.
 
13:27    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  But I think the -- one of
 
13:27    19       the great fears that I heard evidence the last
 
13:28    20       time we were talking about this was that we were
 
13:28    21       going to prevent being able to try to harvest
 
13:28    22       jellyfish, prevent a lot of the other --
 
13:28    23       catching bait fish, finfish, and other things
 
13:28    24       that at the time when we have already
 
13:28    25       drastically changed a --
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13:28     1            DR. NELSON:  This rule does not -- and
 
13:28     2       again --
 
13:28     3            GOVERNOR CHILES:  -- rule.
 
13:28     4            DR. NELSON:  -- in reference to this issue
 
13:28     5       of the license, I --
 
13:28     6            COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN:  I accept the
 
13:28     7       statement.
 
13:28     8            DR. NELSON:  Fine.  And we're meeting at a
 
13:28     9       Commission meeting next week.  If it's necessary
 
13:28    10       for the full Commission --
 
13:28    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  I think it's clear from
 
13:28    12       up here that what we're looking for is not
 
13:28    13       something that's going to prevent trying to
 
13:28    14       expand into markets that weren't there before,
 
13:28    15       bait fish, jellyfish, other fish that we want to
 
13:28    16       honor the -- the intent of the amendment.  But
 
13:28    17       at the same time, we're not looking to go
 
13:28    18       further and prevent commercial fishermen from
 
13:29    19       being able to expand into other areas.
 
13:29    20            DR. NELSON:  Yes.
 
13:29    21            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Other
 
13:29    22       discussion?
 
13:29    23            Is there a motion?
 
13:29    24            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  I make a
 
13:29    25       motion.
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13:29     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Motion and second.
 
13:29     2       All right.
 
13:29     3            So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
 
          4            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Aye.
 
          5            ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:  Aye.
 
          6            TREASURER NELSON:  Aye.
 
          7            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Aye.
 
13:29     8            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed, no.
 
13:29     9            Aye's have it.  The amendment is --
 
13:29    10            We go on to --
 
13:29    11            DR. NELSON:  The final -- the final item
 
13:29    12       would be to skip back to Item L, which would be
 
13:29    13       spotted sea trout.
 
13:29    14            And just let me say briefly that we have
 
13:29    15       heard of two specific concerns that continue to
 
13:29    16       be raised.  One was raised by people from the
 
13:29    17       Jacksonville area who, although we held a number
 
13:29    18       of meetings and workshops in their area during
 
13:29    19       the development of this rule, after the final --
 
13:29    20       reopened final hearing, they have raised the
 
13:30    21       issue that they don't believe the November and
 
13:30    22       December closed season is appropriate, that they
 
13:30    23       think there are alternative closures that might
 
13:30    24       be more appropriate for their area.
 
13:30    25            We have talked with those people, I have
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13:30     1       already been directed by our chairman to have my
 
13:30     2       staff work on analyses to look at alternatives.
 
13:30     3       The specific objection there is that they
 
13:30     4       would -- they don't like the November part of
 
13:30     5       the --
 
13:30     6            (Governor Chiles exited the room.)
 
13:30     7            DR. NELSON:  -- closed season.  They will
 
13:30     8       not run into that closed season until next
 
13:30     9       November.
 
13:30    10            And, as I said, the Commission has at this
 
13:30    11       point agreed to put that on the agenda, has
 
13:30    12       asked us to do some analyses to see if there are
 
13:30    13       alternatives that can achieve the same
 
13:30    14       conservation effect as we can achieve with the
 
13:30    15       proposed closed season that might be more
 
13:30    16       amenable to their businesses.
 
13:30    17            Spotted sea trout are at one-third the
 
13:30    18       spawning potential they should be to be healthy
 
13:30    19       and maximum.  This is based solidly on science.
 
13:30    20       This science includes studies in Apalachicola
 
13:30    21       and other areas of the state.  And the
 
13:30    22       conclusions are similar.
 
13:31    23            I know we have to my knowledge three or
 
13:31    24       four individuals who would like to speak in
 
13:31    25       opposition to this rule.
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13:31     1            We agreed earlier that there'd be a total
 
13:31     2       of 10 minutes, and I will try to do my best to
 
13:31     3       make sure we stay on the 10 minutes per side.
 
13:31     4            Mr. Howard Hamilton, Jimmy Moskonis, and
 
          5       Wade Davidson.
 
13:31     6            MR. HAMILTON:  Governor, members of the
 
13:31     7       Cabinet, Dr. Russell Nelson, we thank you for
 
13:31     8       allowing me to speak, or getting the ball
 
13:31     9       rolling to get me to speak today.
 
13:31    10            We've heard a lot of talk here this morning
 
13:31    11       from people that quoted other people and what
 
13:31    12       they said about the availability of fish and --
 
13:31    13       and what have you.  But I've -- I'm standing
 
13:31    14       here before you today to speak to you from
 
13:31    15       personal experience.
 
13:31    16            I've followed speckled trout and redfishing
 
13:31    17       for now 45 to 50 years.  I'm speaking to you
 
13:32    18       firsthand from experience.  No later than just
 
13:32    19       yesterday, we were out from Suwannee River
 
13:32    20       mouth, and I had a party, and we caught our
 
13:32    21       limit on speckled trout and redfish by
 
13:32    22       2:00 o'clock and was headed home.
 
13:32    23            (Governor Chiles entered the room.)
 
13:32    24            MR. HAMILTON:  In the course of catching
 
13:32    25       those limit sized fish, we catch from three to
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13:32     1       five, ones that were smaller than the 14 inches
 
13:32     2       required that we had to throw back.
 
13:32     3            A goodly number of those fish get hooked in
 
13:32     4       the top of the head, through the brain, or
 
13:32     5       through the eye.  And it hurts me to see them
 
13:32     6       thrown back and -- although I'm not going to be
 
13:32     7       one to stand up here and say, let's keep one if
 
13:32     8       he's dead, I don't believe in that.
 
13:32     9            But it hurts me to see a fish thrown back,
 
13:32    10       knowing he's going to be crab bait, because he's
 
13:32    11       going to die if you hook him in the top of the
 
13:32    12       brain.
 
13:32    13            If we go to a five to seven limit on
 
13:32    14       speckled trout that are 15 inches or -- long or
 
13:32    15       longer, then we're going to kill many more fish
 
13:32    16       trying to meet that upper limit of 15 inches,
 
13:33    17       and have to throw them back dead than we would
 
13:33    18       to keep ten of the 14 inch fish.
 
13:33    19            I have seen over the past couple of years
 
13:33    20       more small speckled trout come into being than I
 
13:33    21       have seen in 25 years following these speckled
 
13:33    22       trout and redfish.  It's my contention that we
 
13:33    23       are already on an upswing.  And I -- I'm -- and
 
13:33    24       I've already -- and, Governor, if you're ready
 
13:33    25       to come fishing with me, I'll take you.  All the
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13:33     1       Cabinet members, I'll make them that offer
 
13:33     2       today.
 
13:33     3            And I'll prove to you what I'm telling you
 
13:33     4       is the truth.  We threw back a lot of fish
 
13:33     5       yesterday.  We're already making a dramatic
 
13:33     6       comeback in both redfish and speckled trout in
 
13:33     7       my area.
 
13:33     8            And I just spent last month three days up
 
13:33     9       at the Sunbelt Agricultural Exposition in
 
13:33    10       Moultrie, Georgia.  And I passed out about 5,000
 
13:33    11       brochures concerning my fishing industry.
 
13:33    12       Howard's Fishing Excursions down at Suwannee.
 
13:33    13       And I take people fishing for a fee.
 
13:33    14            And I had a good number of people tell me,
 
13:33    15       if they -- and I didn't bring this up to them, I
 
13:33    16       didn't want them to know about that, because I
 
13:34    17       wanted them to think they could catch ten when
 
13:34    18       they came fishing with me.
 
13:34    19            And a large number of those people said if
 
13:34    20       they drop it to five to seven, it won't be worth
 
13:34    21       the effort to come fishing any more, not this
 
13:34    22       far.
 
13:34    23            I want to see this state get that money
 
13:34    24       from Georgia and Tennessee and Alabama and --
 
13:34    25       and South Carolina.  And we're not going to get
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13:34     1       it if we go to the extreme and drop this limit
 
13:34     2       down to a point that people just quit coming.
 
13:34     3       That's going to hurt people in businesses like
 
13:34     4       mine.  A lot of the guides are going to be out
 
13:34     5       of business, and they're trying to make their
 
13:34     6       living, too.
 
13:34     7            I'm not selfish in this thing, because I
 
13:34     8       didn't vote for the net ban, folks, and I don't
 
13:34     9       stand here to quibble about it, because I felt
 
13:34    10       it was extreme.  I thought if they put the right
 
13:34    11       kind of controls on the thing, it'd be fair for
 
13:34    12       everybody.
 
13:34    13            But it didn't -- and that's not the way it
 
13:34    14       worked out.  So we live with what we have.  But
 
13:34    15       I did make this offer at the Commission meeting
 
13:34    16       there in Cross City.  I said, I have some
 
13:34    17       teaching experience and I'm willing to teach a
 
13:34    18       course towards getting your captain's license to
 
13:35    19       anybody in this area that would like to attend.
 
13:35    20       And I've had two people contact me since.
 
13:35    21            So that would be in direct competition with
 
13:35    22       me.  But I'd still do it, and we'll teach it as
 
13:35    23       long as it's necessary for them to pass that
 
13:35    24       test with the Coast Guard.
 
13:35    25            But what I'm telling you here today is I
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13:35     1       want to go back to my early years, back when I
 
13:35     2       was a young lad catching speckled trout.  And
 
13:35     3       you could be drifting along out there fishing,
 
13:35     4       and you'd hear some things on top of the water
 
13:35     5       going psst, psst, psst, psst, psst.
 
13:35     6            You know what that was?  It was a shrimp or
 
13:35     7       two up there clustered on a lump of floating
 
13:35     8       grass, and all of a sudden a trout would smack
 
13:35     9       him and get him.  You don't hear that any more.
 
13:35    10       The shrimp are gone in those grass bed areas.
 
13:35    11            That's the thing we need out there to make
 
13:35    12       these young speckled trout -- these yearling
 
13:35    13       speckled trout grow.  That's the prime bait they
 
13:35    14       need.
 
13:35    15            And we are spoiling it by dragging the
 
13:35    16       bottom out there every night.  We've got a lot
 
13:35    17       of artificial lures.  If we're going to be
 
13:35    18       sportsmen, folks, let's be true sportsmen.
 
13:35    19       We've got a lot of artificial lures, and we can
 
13:36    20       also catch those little finfish with a little
 
13:36    21       hook, that's what I do.
 
13:36    22            And let's be true sportsmen about it, let's
 
13:36    23       catch it with a hook.  Or use the artificial
 
13:36    24       thing.  We don't need shrimp to fish with.  And
 
13:36    25       let's do it that way.
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13:36     1            And that -- with that, I would like to
 
13:36     2       leave that with you, when you make your decision
 
13:36     3       here that we do need those tourist dollars.  And
 
13:36     4       if we cut it down too low, we're going to stop a
 
          5       lot of that flow.
 
13:36     6            Thank you.
 
13:36     7            MR. MOSKONIS:  Governor and Cabinet, my
 
13:36     8       name's Jim Moskonis.  I'm chairman of the
 
13:36     9       Franklin County Commission.  I've been up here
 
13:36    10       many times on many issues affecting
 
13:36    11       Apalachicola Bay.
 
13:36    12            The problem I have with this rule is 25 or
 
13:36    13       so years ago, the government in Franklin County
 
13:36    14       started on a course of low -- low density, slow
 
13:36    15       development, slow growth aimed at protecting the
 
13:36    16       Apalachicola Bay, and that general lower
 
13:37    17       Apalachicola River system.
 
13:37    18            And the reason for that was to provide a
 
13:37    19       good, viable seafood industry there, a viable
 
13:37    20       finfishing recreational industry there.  We've
 
13:37    21       done that.  I've been in -- I've been involved
 
13:37    22       with that process in the last 13 years.  And,
 
13:37    23       you know, Franklin County had one of the first
 
13:37    24       comprehensive plans for a rural county in the
 
13:37    25       state.  We have the most rigid development plans
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13:37     1       in the state.
 
13:37     2            That's why we come up here periodically
 
13:37     3       when the developers take us to court, trying to
 
13:37     4       get what they want instead of what we say
 
13:37     5       that -- you know, what we -- we say that the --
 
13:37     6       the developing should be down there.
 
13:37     7            And as a result of that -- the reason I'm
 
13:37     8       telling you all this is the result of that,
 
13:37     9       we've got a tremendous amount of resource
 
13:37    10       there.  And any -- and any change in the
 
13:37    11       speckled trout rule is just not warranted.
 
13:38    12            My people yesterday morning were limited
 
13:38    13       out before 11:00 o'clock.  I let -- well, I
 
13:38    14       started to leave this morning, I had a group of
 
13:38    15       older gentlemen from Mobile staying there, and
 
13:38    16       they -- they saw me dressed up, said, where are
 
13:38    17       you going, Captain?
 
13:38    18            I said, I'm going to Tallahassee and talk
 
13:38    19       about the speckled trout.
 
13:38    20            They said, are they going to up -- are they
 
         21       going to loosen the limits up some?
 
13:38    22            I said, no, they're trying to cut them
 
13:38    23       back.
 
13:38    24            But this -- you know, I can -- I can
 
13:38    25       appreciate that probably some parts of Florida's
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13:38     1       got some environmental problems and some
 
13:38     2       finfishing problem.  But -- but, you know, if
 
13:38     3       we're going to do a good job up there, we're
 
13:38     4       going to keep our tax base down, and we're going
 
13:38     5       to do without a lot of services in
 
13:38     6       Franklin County than the richer counties have
 
13:38     7       because they go that route of high density
 
13:38     8       development, give us some environmental credits
 
13:38     9       here on doing a good job.
 
13:38    10            I mean, this is the bottom line.  Why are
 
13:38    11       we protecting the environment, and why are we
 
13:38    12       trying to make these -- these pristine areas of
 
13:38    13       Florida pristine if we can't get credit for
 
13:38    14       that.  You know, why are we doing it.
 
13:39    15            I'd be glad to answer any questions about
 
13:39    16       speckled trout and Apalachicola Bay, Governor.
 
13:39    17            There's absolutely -- absolutely,
 
13:39    18       unequivocably nothing wrong with the speckled
 
13:39    19       trout.  And the program that's in place now is
 
13:39    20       working good.  It's working -- working very
 
13:39    21       good.  The ten trout limit keeps bringing people
 
13:39    22       back down here from Georgia and Alabama and
 
13:39    23       Tennessee.  But I'm afraid if we cut it
 
13:39    24       30 percent, it's going to have a dramatic impact
 
13:39    25       on bringing those people in here.
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13:39     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Are there questions?
 
13:39     2            Thank you, sir.
 
          3            MR. MOSKONIS:  One last thing.  If you do
 
13:39     4       pass it, for God's sakes, make them visit this
 
13:39     5       issue every 12 months.  If you don't, it'll be
 
13:39     6       like the redfish, it'll be ten years from now,
 
13:39     7       and then we won't get back around to another
 
13:39     8       speckled trout rule.
 
          9            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thanks.
 
13:39    10            MR. MOSKONIS:  Thank you very much.
 
         11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
13:39    12            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Before the next
 
13:39    13       speaker, Governor, could I ask a question?  And
 
13:39    14       it is relative to that.  It's pretty
 
13:39    15       much, Mr. Nelson, the same question that I asked
 
13:39    16       on the other issue.
 
13:39    17            What's the scientific prospectus in terms
 
13:40    18       of the move and at what intervals will --
 
13:40    19            (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
 
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- this be looked at
 
13:40    21       for reconsideration if this passes?
 
13:40    22            DR. NELSON:  As we have done with redfish,
 
13:40    23       and most of these other fisheries, we generally
 
13:40    24       try to revisit them at least every three years.
 
13:40    25       Sometimes more frequently.
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13:40     1            To revisit it within a single year, we
 
13:40     2       probably don't have the information, and the
 
13:40     3       scientists won't have the information to tell us
 
13:40     4       much, because they have to -- we spend a year
 
13:40     5       going through the information, take several
 
          6       months then to do the analysis.
 
13:40     7            But certainly on this trout issue, if any
 
13:40     8       new information is relevant.  But there's a real
 
13:40     9       push here between the managers always -- always
 
13:40    10       want to know quicker, and let's get it done
 
13:40    11       faster so we can respond quicker; and the
 
13:40    12       scientists always say, well, if you want us to
 
13:40    13       give you a good answer, you're going to have to
 
13:40    14       give us long enough so that we can show -- we
 
13:40    15       can say these are significant results, and not
 
13:40    16       hearsay.  So --
 
13:40    17            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  And I'm sensitive to
 
13:40    18       that --
 
13:40    19            DR. NELSON:  Generally about three years.
 
         20            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  -- I recognize the
 
13:40    21       scientists would always like to have the next
 
13:40    22       generation to handle it.
 
13:40    23            But there needs to be some reasonable
 
13:41    24       accommodation between the two, today or
 
13:41    25       ten years from now.
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13:41     1            And my only question is, and I put great
 
13:41     2       confidence in you all, is that this is going to
 
13:41     3       be looked at on a periodic basis that is -- that
 
13:41     4       is relatively accommodating to both sides of
 
13:41     5       that issue.
 
13:41     6            DR. NELSON:  I can assure you -- I can
 
13:41     7       speak for myself, and I imagine I speak for most
 
13:41     8       of the commissioners.  There is nothing we'd
 
13:41     9       like more to get an assessment back saying,
 
13:41    10       things are a lot better than they were, and you
 
13:41    11       can give people more fish.
 
13:41    12            So I mean, there is certainly on our part a
 
13:41    13       great desire to see that if we can get those
 
13:41    14       kind of results.
 
13:41    15            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Thanks, Governor.
 
13:41    16            MR. ALLEN:  Governor Chiles, ladies and
 
13:41    17       gentlemen of the Cabinet, my name is
 
13:41    18       Jimmy Allen.  I own White Shellfish Camp in
 
13:41    19       Jacksonville, Florida.  I'm a bait dealer.
 
13:41    20            I'm here today because I'm very concerned
 
13:41    21       as to what is about to take place with the
 
13:41    22       stroke of your pen.  It has been said that the
 
13:42    23       recreational fisherman is the evil culprit in
 
13:42    24       the decline of speckled trout.  It's also been
 
13:42    25       said that the gill net was the evil culprit.
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13:42     1       The net ban has been done away with.
 
13:42     2            Leave the law the way it is, give the net
 
13:42     3       ban a chance to work.  You take 100 percent of
 
13:42     4       your recreational fishermen, they say that --
 
13:42     5       that -- that your recreational fishermen getting
 
13:42     6       100 percent is targeting speckled trout.  That's
 
13:42     7       totally false.
 
13:42     8            Let's just say that 50 percent targets
 
13:42     9       trout.  During the same time of the year when we
 
13:42    10       have our strong trout run, you also have
 
13:42    11       redfish, flounder, and sheephead.  Not everybody
 
13:42    12       targets speckled trout.
 
13:42    13            Let's say out of the 50 percent, maybe only
 
13:42    14       30 percent will catch a limit.  Everybody
 
13:42    15       doesn't catch a limit.  And I make the same
 
13:42    16       commitment that the other gentleman made to
 
13:42    17       you.  I fish five and six days a week.  I know
 
13:42    18       exactly what's going on in northeast Florida.
 
13:43    19       And I'll be glad to take anybody, at my expense,
 
13:43    20       down there now.  And at the end of the day, if
 
13:43    21       you can tell me that we've got that much of a
 
13:43    22       decline in trout, then I'll never come back
 
13:43    23       before you.
 
13:43    24            Thank you.
 
13:43    25            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
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13:43     1            DR. NELSON:  We've been about 14 minutes
 
13:43     2       into the 10 minutes for the opponents.  I think
 
13:43     3       we have one more gentleman or -- how would
 
13:43     4       you -- should we let the folks on the other side
 
13:43     5       of the issue speak, and then decide what sort of
 
13:43     6       time you all want to spend on the rest of it?
 
13:43     7            GOVERNOR CHILES:  (Nodding head.)
 
13:43     8            DR. NELSON:  Okay.  Tim McOsker I believe.
 
13:43     9            (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
 
         10            MR. McOSKER:  Yes.  Good morning, again,
 
         11       Governor and Cabinet.
 
         12            I don't have a written prepared statement
 
13:43    13       on the trout issue.  My real feeling on it --
 
13:43    14       and I'm going to kind of come from the top of my
 
13:43    15       head -- is I have attended the Marine Fisheries
 
13:43    16       Commission hearings over the last three years on
 
13:43    17       this issue.  And we have gone from a position of
 
13:44    18       literally closing trout down.  I mean, that's
 
13:44    19       where we started three years ago, it was in that
 
13:44    20       bad of a situation.
 
13:44    21            We have worked on this thing -- I mean,
 
13:44    22       really we've -- practically every
 
13:44    23       Marine Fisheries Commission hearing, you know,
 
13:44    24       has had trout as part of it.  And it's been a
 
13:44    25       knock-down-drag-out.  It's become very redundant
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13:44     1       to hear these same issues over and over again.
 
13:44     2            My question mark was, where were these
 
13:44     3       people -- you know, where were these people at
 
13:44     4       the Marine Fisheries Commission's hearings?
 
13:44     5       There has -- there was a number of people that
 
13:44     6       had lodges and fish camps and -- you know,
 
13:44     7       talking about -- and we compromised with them.
 
13:44     8       That's where we're standing here today with one
 
13:44     9       part of the state has one set of limits, whereas
 
13:44    10       the rest of the state has a much smaller
 
13:44    11       limits.
 
13:44    12            We did compromise with the northwest part
 
13:44    13       of the state in terms of coming up with these
 
13:44    14       limits.
 
13:44    15            You know, the bottom line is, I don't
 
13:44    16       like -- you know, I'm a professional guide, I do
 
13:44    17       over 200 trips a year.  I don't like having to
 
13:44    18       go down to five fish per day per person.  I
 
13:44    19       don't like to have -- to have to have a November
 
13:45    20       and December closed season.  I mean, you know,
 
13:45    21       this is one of the fish that I target this time
 
13:45    22       of year.
 
13:45    23            But the bottom line is is, you know, what
 
13:45    24       my personal interests are really don't have
 
13:45    25       anything to do with it.  What we are talking
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13:45     1       about is the resource.  What is the -- you know,
 
13:45     2       what is best for the resource.
 
13:45     3            And the guides of Florida, the -- or I
 
13:45     4       should say, the Florida Guides Association, it
 
13:45     5       hurts our pocketbooks to have to -- to have to
 
13:45     6       limit catches and to have to, you know, bring
 
13:45     7       these things down.
 
13:45     8            But in looking towards what's best for the
 
13:45     9       resource, we agree with the Marine Fisheries
 
13:45    10       Commission, we have worked with them, you know,
 
13:45    11       and this -- this really, it's been a very tough
 
13:45    12       issue, and it's been a long time coming where we
 
13:45    13       have pretty much gotten to a compromise with
 
13:45    14       most of the people that were interested enough
 
13:45    15       to show up at the Marine Fishery Commission
 
13:45    16       hearings to work out a compromise and to bring
 
13:45    17       you a rule at this time.
 
13:45    18            And we hope that you will pass it.
 
13:45    19            Thank you very much.
 
13:45    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
13:46    21            MR. FORSGREN:  I'd like to just address a
 
13:46    22       few issues in support of the trout management
 
13:46    23       plan, and note that we've been working for
 
13:46    24       six years with the Marine Fisheries Commission
 
13:46    25       to get one that is truly effective to help
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13:46     1       restore the stock.
 
13:46     2            And I think the Commission has made
 
13:46     3       numerous changes in the months that it had been
 
13:46     4       working on this.  Commissioner Hansen has taken
 
13:46     5       a personal -- under his wing, so to speak, and
 
13:46     6       talked with a number of different people.
 
13:46     7       Boundary lines have been changed, months have
 
13:46     8       been changed, the Taylor County folks have been
 
13:46     9       to every meeting, and that's been put together.
 
13:46    10            And I think they've put together a rule
 
13:46    11       that not only accommodates the best they
 
13:46    12       possibly can the economic needs of various parts
 
13:46    13       of the state, but also protects the resource.
 
13:46    14       And I think that's important.
 
13:46    15            We talked about tourist dollars.  We're
 
13:46    16       concerned -- this fishery -- we had an economist
 
13:46    17       from Texas A&M University to look at it.  One
 
13:46    18       hundred and sixty-eight million dollars annual
 
13:46    19       value to the state of Florida as a healthy
 
13:46    20       fishery.  And those are the benefits that
 
13:46    21       Florida will receive from a healthy fishery.
 
13:47    22            There is a handout that I asked Mr. Nelson
 
13:47    23       to give to each of you that is kind of an
 
13:47    24       overview of the -- the limits that were approved
 
13:47    25       earlier on pompano and sheepshead and other
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13:47     1       current limits and so forth, because one issue
 
13:47     2       may come up is the commercial limits versus the
 
13:47     3       recreational limits.
 
13:47     4            This rule provides a three-month commercial
 
13:47     5       season with 75 fish per boat per day for the
 
13:47     6       commercial fisherman.  A five fish or a seven
 
13:47     7       fish bag limit 10 months out of the year for
 
13:47     8       recreational fishermen.
 
13:47     9            One of the most important elements in
 
13:47    10       controlling a tightly controlled regulated
 
13:47    11       fishery is the availability of sale.  It's one
 
13:47    12       of the most successful things -- elements of the
 
13:47    13       redfish rule, of the snook rule, of other fish
 
13:47    14       and wildlife, is restricting the amount of sales
 
13:47    15       that's available.
 
13:47    16            We think this rule does good, and I think
 
13:47    17       that if you look at the overview of all of the
 
13:47    18       other limits and bag limits, what you'll see is
 
13:47    19       that on balance, it's fair, and that
 
13:47    20       recreational anglers are also, as they should
 
13:48    21       be, fully regulated and restricted.
 
13:48    22            So we would urge you to adopt this rule so
 
13:48    23       that we can have sea trout begin to come back in
 
13:48    24       the same magnitude that redfish has.
 
13:48    25            I'd also add that because they don't live
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13:48     1       as long as redfish, the benefits will be seen
 
13:48     2       much quicker.  We won't have to wait as long
 
13:48     3       before the Commission will have the opportunity
 
13:48     4       to make adjustments.  Three to five years
 
13:48     5       maximum.  You're talking about a much quicker
 
13:48     6       recovery in a fishery.
 
13:48     7            So again, we would urge you to adopt this
 
13:48     8       rule for the sea trout resource.
 
13:48     9            Thank you.
 
13:48    10            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
13:48    11            DR. NELSON:  I believe we have two other
 
13:48    12       individuals who would like to speak.
 
13:48    13            MR. DAVIDSON:  Governor and Cabinet, my
 
13:48    14       name is Wade Davidson, and I'm a commercial live
 
13:48    15       shrimper in northeast Florida.  Or sometime
 
13:48    16       I think it should be southeast Georgia.
 
13:48    17            But we have plenty of trout, we have plenty
 
13:48    18       of reds.  But I'm not here on the reds.
 
         19            (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
 
         20       room.)
 
         21            MR. DAVIDSON:  I'm not here to recitate,
 
13:49    22       I'm here for northeast Florida.
 
13:49    23            This rule today, if they sign here, I've
 
13:49    24       got -- it will demonstrate the bait business and
 
13:49    25       the bait dealers, and the bait and tackle
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13:49     1       stores.  And November, December is probably two
 
13:49     2       of our best months for participating and having
 
13:49     3       the fish bite.  But most people catch them that
 
13:49     4       time of year is what I'm trying to say.
 
13:49     5            I've wrote I think every one of you, and
 
13:49     6       I've sent -- I think we've had a petition drive
 
13:49     7       up there.  And I'm up there in redneck
 
13:49     8       territory.  You can't get them people to a
 
13:49     9       meeting.  I mean, you can try and you can try.
 
13:49    10       You can't get them to a meeting.
 
13:49    11            The people that is up in that area live
 
13:49    12       there, they fish there, they raise their
 
13:49    13       families there.  I mean, that -- that -- they
 
13:49    14       feel like their -- that's their fish.  And they
 
13:49    15       cannot, for no reason, see why the
 
13:49    16       State of Florida wants to drop the trout rule
 
13:49    17       down to five a day with a November, December
 
13:49    18       closure, a 15 to 20 inch slot limit.  That's
 
13:50    19       ridiculous.  We don't need it.  I can't speak
 
13:50    20       for the rest of the state.  They may need it.  I
 
13:50    21       don't wear a red hat, I don't wear a green hat.
 
13:50    22       I'm just here as a person just trying to state
 
13:50    23       my case.
 
13:50    24            And, really, that's about all I've got to
 
13:50    25       say.  I appreciate your time.
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13:50     1            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you, sir.
 
13:50     2            MR. SANSOM:  Governor, members of the
 
13:50     3       Cabinet, for the record, Jerry Sansom,
 
13:50     4       Executive Director, Organized Fishermen of
 
13:50     5       Florida.
 
13:50     6            Before you vote on this rule, I want to
 
13:50     7       make sure y'all understand what's in it from our
 
13:50     8       perspective.  This rule -- and we've been
 
13:50     9       working with the Fish Commission since '89 and
 
13:50    10       before, for the first major management of trout,
 
13:50    11       which has improved trout significantly.
 
13:50    12            And since '91, to bring you the second
 
13:50    13       generation of trout.  And the goal has always
 
13:50    14       been to reduce the mortality overall by
 
13:50    15       50 percent.  That's been the goal on the
 
13:50    16       commercial side, it's been the goal on the
 
13:50    17       recreational side.
 
13:50    18            We have supported that goal, we've told the
 
13:50    19       Commission any number of times, you tell us what
 
13:51    20       poundage that 50 percent mortality reduction
 
13:51    21       amounts to, and we'll help you design a program
 
13:51    22       that fits within it.
 
13:51    23            When they built the existing system, it was
 
13:51    24       designed so that the commercial industry caught
 
13:51    25       somewhere between 20 and 30 percent of the total
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13:51     1       catch, and the recreational industry caught
 
13:51     2       somewhere between 70 and 80 percent of the total
 
13:51     3       catch.
 
13:51     4            That first iteration of regulation was put
 
13:51     5       in place in '89 was intended to achieve a
 
13:51     6       30 percent reduction in mortality.  We have a
 
13:51     7       30 percent reduction in our total take,
 
13:51     8       recreational folks did the same.
 
13:51     9            It was discovered that wasn't enough, we
 
13:51    10       needed to go for an additional 50 percent of
 
13:51    11       what was left.  We supported that.
 
13:51    12            Unfortunately this rule reduces commercial
 
13:51    13       harvest 90 percent.  Not 50 percent.  But
 
13:51    14       90 percent.
 
13:51    15            Now, when you look at the biology, Russell
 
13:51    16       and most of the rest of them, would be perfectly
 
13:51    17       willing to admit that if you totally eliminated
 
13:51    18       the commercial harvest, it wouldn't make any
 
13:52    19       difference in how many fish the recreational
 
13:52    20       folks get.  So it's not an issue of you take
 
13:52    21       from us, and you give to them.  They'll get
 
13:52    22       more.
 
13:52    23            It amounts to another quarter of a fish a
 
13:52    24       year for the recreational side.  You've totally
 
13:52    25       eliminated the commercial fishery.
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13:52     1            What this rule does, it only leaves a token
 
13:52     2       commercial trout fishery on the middle east
 
13:52     3       coast of Florida.  That's all that will survive.
 
13:52     4            This rule is like girdling a tree or
 
13:52     5       cutting a steer, it doesn't take long for the
 
13:52     6       results to become evident.  It happens.
 
13:52     7            We could live with the 50 percent
 
13:52     8       reduction.  Frankly, the net ban alone, since
 
          9       nets caught 70 percent of the commercial trout
 
13:52    10       harvest, achieved the 50 percent reduction.
 
13:52    11       But, no, we can't do that.  We've got to have an
 
13:52    12       additional 23 percent reduction by raising the
 
13:52    13       size limit to 15 inches.
 
13:52    14            You're going to have another major
 
13:52    15       reduction by only allowing a three-month closed
 
13:52    16       season -- open season, excuse me -- three-month
 
13:53    17       open season, which only fits the fishery in the
 
13:53    18       middle east coast.  Everywhere else in the state
 
13:53    19       is going to be out of the commercial hook and
 
13:53    20       line trout fishery as a result of this issue.
 
13:53    21            I just wanted to make sure y'all understood
 
13:53    22       that before you voted, that this is not
 
13:53    23       50 percent reduction on both sides, it's
 
13:53    24       90 percent to 95 percent on the commercial with
 
13:53    25       little, if any, gain to the recreational side
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13:53     1       for achieving that.
 
13:53     2            Now, prior to the net ban, everybody said
 
13:53     3       don't worry about putting the netters out of
 
13:53     4       business, particularly the trout netters,
 
13:53     5       they'll be able to continue in the hook and line
 
13:53     6       trout fishery.  One more lie, folks.  It ain't
 
13:53     7       going to happen because it can't happen.
 
13:53     8            Be glad to answer any questions.  But
 
13:53     9       unfortunately this is wrapped up with the other
 
13:53    10       stuff that probably needs to be done, and y'all
 
13:53    11       are in the box again.
 
13:53    12            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
13:53    13            MR. SANSOM:  Thank you very much, and
 
13:53    14       appreciate your time.
 
13:53    15            MR. HANSEN:  Governor --
 
13:53    16            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir --
 
13:53    17            MR. HANSEN:  -- Cabinet.  Certainly a
 
13:54    18       pleasure to be here to talk to you just a little
 
13:54    19       bit about what I've been dedicated to all my
 
13:54    20       life.  And that's the fishery of Florida and the
 
13:54    21       hunting of Florida.  And working with a lot of
 
13:54    22       people to put them in the right places to do the
 
13:54    23       right thing.
 
13:54    24            And I just want to say to you, and I think
 
13:54    25       most of you understand where I come from, I'm
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13:54     1       a -- pretty much of a volunteer.  I sit on the
 
13:54     2       Keep Florida Beautiful Commission, as a
 
13:54     3       director, I sit on the University of Florida's
 
13:54     4       Council of Twenty from Wetlands and Natural
 
13:54     5       Resources as a volunteer.
 
13:54     6            The Governor appointed me to this job, and
 
13:54     7       I promised him that I would do it.
 
13:54     8            I was immediately given the job of trying
 
13:54     9       to straighten out the trout situation in the
 
13:55    10       state of Florida which was in very, very serious
 
13:55    11       condition, and which we have been messing around
 
13:55    12       with since 1991 without any results.
 
13:55    13            And when Dr. Marston gave me this job, I
 
13:55    14       took it on, and I believe I have attempted to in
 
13:55    15       all sincere effort to touch every base and to do
 
13:55    16       all my homework, and work with many, many people
 
13:55    17       to bring about a rule that was palatable to each
 
13:55    18       and every one of the people on -- on both
 
13:55    19       coasts, because we do have a serious problem on
 
13:55    20       different areas that people do not understand.
 
13:55    21            I was -- when the park went into no net
 
13:55    22       fishing in 1984, that was when the last hearing
 
13:55    23       was held before 1985, when the Everglades
 
13:55    24       National Park, they put in a special rule down
 
13:56    25       there for -- especially for the trout fishing,
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13:56     1       which is a very strong fishery in the park.
 
13:56     2            But normally there is a red area that comes
 
13:56     3       all the way up to the Pasco, Pinellas County
 
13:56     4       line, which is the demarcation line for -- for
 
13:56     5       trout in the northern -- dividing the southern
 
13:56     6       and the northwestern zones.
 
13:56     7            And with this, the -- the fishery in that
 
13:56     8       area, especially in the area where I live, used
 
13:56     9       to -- when I used to do seminars for many boat
 
13:56    10       shows all over the state, I used to call them
 
13:56    11       nuisance trout.  When we were fishing for snook,
 
13:56    12       it was very -- very difficult to get snook
 
13:56    13       because the trout would be so thick.  But that
 
13:56    14       is not the case.  And that's -- this picture has
 
13:56    15       changed over the last four or five years.
 
13:56    16            And now we've got more snook than we know
 
13:56    17       what to do with.  We do, really.
 
13:56    18            And -- but there's areas that are in the
 
13:57    19       red zone.
 
13:57    20            Frank, your area is very, very devastated.
 
13:57    21            In fact, the people in Fort Pierce and that
 
13:57    22       area that came to us and asked us to close it
 
13:57    23       down for three years because it had become so
 
13:57    24       bad.
 
13:57    25            And I have made a promise, and Wade, I
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13:57     1       promised him at the Cabinet aides meeting the
 
13:57     2       other day that this thing on the -- on the
 
13:57     3       shrimp would come up on the northeast coast, and
 
13:57     4       I would assure him that it would be brought up
 
13:57     5       at the Cabinet -- at the Marine Fisheries
 
13:57     6       Commission meeting in February.
 
13:57     7            And like I've always promised my kids all
 
13:57     8       down during their time that they were coming up,
 
13:57     9       if I make a promise, I don't ever break it.
 
13:57    10            And so what we're asking you to do today is
 
13:57    11       to -- to vote this rule in, to get something on
 
13:57    12       the books for us.  It's been a long time in
 
13:58    13       coming.  And if we -- if we have to go back now
 
13:58    14       to the -- to the work table and come back
 
13:58    15       again --
 
13:58    16            But I feel that with the endorsement of the
 
13:58    17       Guides Association, the commercial -- commercial
 
13:58    18       fishing, we have endeavored to do everything we
 
13:58    19       possibly can to listen to the commercial
 
13:58    20       fisherman, to listen to their sides of the
 
13:58    21       story.  We even cut it back and went back again
 
13:58    22       so that we could raise the 50 fish per day to
 
13:58    23       75.  Which Tim Adams, who is a commercial
 
13:58    24       fisherman over on the east coast, and from down
 
13:58    25       from your area, and is a strong supporter of
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13:58     1       ours.
 
13:58     2            And we promised to do the job.  And I hope
 
13:58     3       that when this vote comes up, that you will see
 
13:58     4       fit to bring this to our attention that this is
 
13:58     5       the rule that we would like to have put in
 
13:58     6       place.
 
13:58     7            And I thank you very much.
 
13:59     8            And if there's any questions, I -- I'd -- I
 
13:59     9       will take you fishing if anybody wants to go.
 
13:59    10       But not all of you at one time.
 
13:59    11            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Thank you.
 
13:59    12            MR. HANSEN:  Thank you.
 
13:59    13            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Any question?
 
13:59    14            MR. HANSEN:  Thank you, sir.
 
13:59    15            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Any further discussion.
 
13:59    16            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Need a motion for
 
13:59    17       approval?
 
13:59    18            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Yes, sir.
 
13:59    19            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  So move.
 
13:59    20            GOVERNOR CHILES:  There's a motion.
 
13:59    21            Second?
 
13:59    22            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  I do.
 
13:59    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  It's seconded.
 
13:59    24            Moved and seconded.
 
13:59    25            Now, restate the rule right quickly -- very
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13:59     1       quickly, if you will.
 
13:59     2            DR. NELSON:  This rule will throughout the
 
13:59     3       state, from the Georgia-Florida border down
 
13:59     4       around the coast and up to the
 
14:00     5       Pinellas-Pasco County line, establish a bag
 
14:00     6       limit of five sea trout per day.  It's a
 
14:00     7       decrease from the current ten.
 
14:00     8            It will establish a size limit of 15 to
 
14:00     9       20 inches with an allowance for one fish over
 
14:00    10       20 inches.  That's a change from the previous
 
14:00    11       14- to 24-inch slot limit.
 
14:00    12            It will establish in that area a November
 
14:00    13       and December closed season with a commercial
 
14:00    14       season of the 75 fish commercial limit.
 
14:00    15            In the northwest area, from Pasco County up
 
14:00    16       around the Big Bend through the northwest, it
 
14:00    17       is -- establishes a seven fish daily bag limit,
 
14:00    18       retains the old 14 -- excuse me, it's a 15- to
 
14:00    19       24-inch slot limit, a wider slot limit, with an
 
14:00    20       allowance for one fish a day greater than the
 
14:00    21       24-inch maximum.  Has only a single February
 
14:00    22       closure, and the same 75 fish commercial limit.
 
14:00    23            GOVERNOR CHILES:  All right.  Moved and
 
14:00    24       seconded.
 
14:00    25            So many as favor, signify by saying aye.
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14:00     1            TREASURER NELSON:  Aye.
 
          2            SECRETARY MORTHAM:  Aye.
 
14:00     3            COMMISSIONER BROGAN:  Aye.
 
14:01     4            GOVERNOR CHILES:  Opposed, no.
 
14:01     5            The rule is adopted.
 
14:01     6            DR. NELSON:  I would like -- I would like
 
14:01     7       to thank you all very much for putting up with
 
14:01     8       what has been a very long agenda today.  And
 
14:01     9       I think we've done a good job.
 
         10            (The Marine Fisheries Commission Agenda was
 
         11       concluded.)
 
         12                             *
 
         13            (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
 
         14       1:05 p.m.)
 
         15
 
         16
 
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          1                 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
 
          2
 
          3
 
          4   STATE OF FLORIDA:
 
          5   COUNTY OF LEON:
 
          6            I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
 
          7   the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
 
          8   time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
 
          9   notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
 
         10   pages numbered 1 through 195 are a true and correct
 
         11   record of the aforesaid proceedings.
 
         12            I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
 
         13   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
 
         14   nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
 
         15   or financially interested in the foregoing action.
 
         16            DATED THIS 11TH day of DECEMBER, 1995.
 
         17
 
         18
 
         19                           LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR
                                      100 Salem Court
         20                           Tallahassee, Florida 32301
                                      (904) 878-2221
         21
 
         22
 
         23
 
         24
 
         25
                        ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.