Cabinet
Affairs |
1
2 T H E C A B I N E T
3 S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
4
Representing:
5
COMMISSION ON MINORITY ECONOMIC
6 AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT
FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD
7 STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
8 DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY
AND MOTOR VEHICLES
9 DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
10 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
TRUSTEES OF THE INTERNAL
11 IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION
12
13
The above agencies came to be heard before
14 THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Chiles
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
15 The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Wednesday,
November 29, 1995, commencing at approximately
16 9:44 a.m.
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18 Reported by:
19 LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
20 Certified Court Reporter
Notary Public in and for
21 the State of Florida at Large
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23 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
24 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
904/878-2221
25 1-800/934-9090
November 29, 1995
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 Representing the Florida Cabinet:
3 LAWTON CHILES
Governor
4
BOB MILLIGAN
5 Comptroller
6 SANDRA B. MORTHAM
Secretary of State
7
BOB BUTTERWORTH
8 Attorney General
9 BILL NELSON
Treasurer
10
FRANK T. BROGAN
11 Commissioner of Education
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
November 29, 1995
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1 I N D E X
2 ITEM ACTION PAGE
3 COMMISSION ON MINORITY
ECONOMIC AND BUSINESS
4 DEVELOPMENT:
(Presented by Tereasa P. Stewart,
5 Interim Executive Administrator)
6 1 Draft Final Order 14
7 FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD:
(Presented by Martin Young,
8 Secretary)
9 1 Approved 15
2 Approved 15
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
11 (Presented by John W. Madden,
Chief Administrative Officer)
12
1 Approved 16
13 2 Approved 16
3 Approved 16
14 4 Approved 17
5 Approved 17
15 6 Approved 17
16 DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
(Presented by J. Ben Watkins, III,
17 Director)
18 1 Approved 18
2 Approved 18
19 3 Approved 19
4(a), (b), and (c) Approved 19
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November 29, 1995
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1 I N D E X
(Continued)
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ITEM ACTION PAGE
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DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES:
4 (Presented by Fred O. Dickinson, III,
Executive Director)
5
1 Approved 21
6 2 Approved 21
3 Approved 22
7 4 Approved 22
5 Approved 23
8 6 Withdrawn 23
7 Approved 23
9
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE:
10 (Presented by L.H. Fuchs,
Executive Director)
11
1 Approved 25
12 2-8 Approved 25
9 Approved 26
13 10 Approved 29
14 STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Robert L. Bedford,
15 Deputy Commissioner)
16 1 Approved 30
2 Approved 30
17 3 Approved 30
4 Approved 33
18 5 Deferred 34
19 ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION:
(Presented by Robert B. Bradley, Ph.D.,
20 Secretary)
21 1 Approved 35
2 Approved 35
22 3 Approved 36
4A and 4B Approved 36
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
November 29, 1995
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1
I N D E X
2 (Continued)
3 ITEM ACTION PAGE
4 BOARD OF TRUSTEES,
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
5 TRUST FUND:
(Presented by Virginia B. Wetherell,
6 Secretary)
7 1 Approved 37
2 Approved 37
8 3 Approved 39
4 Approved 45
9 5 Approved 45
6 Approved 46
10 7 Approved 46
8 Approved 46
11 9 Approved 49
10 Deferred 49
12 11 Bifurcation 69
Fine 73
13 Deferred 75
12 Deferred 75
14
MARINE FISHERIES COMMISSION:
15 (Presented by Russell S. Nelson, Ph.D.,
Executive Director)
16
A Approved 77
17 B Withdrawn 78
C Approved 78
18 D Approved 79
E Approved 79
19 F Approved 79
G Approved 99
20 H, I, J, K Approved 100
L Approved 194
21 M Approved 164
22 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 195
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November 29, 1995
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
10:46 2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:59 a.m.)
10:55 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Commission on Minority
10:55 4 Economic and Business Development.
10:55 5 MS. STEWART: We have one item today on our
10:55 6 agenda. The item is final agency action on an
10:55 7 administrative hearing in the case of Test Lab,
10:55 8 Inc., of the denial of application for
10:55 9 certification as a Minority Business Enterprise.
10:55 10 We are requesting that this item be
10:55 11 deferred until your December 12th meeting.
10:55 12 Also I'd like to let you know,
10:55 13 Governor Chiles, that the owner of Test Lab is
10:55 14 here today. She was here last time. She's been
10:55 15 very patient with us. We were unable to reach
10:56 16 her last night by telephone to let her know that
10:56 17 we were going to request denial.
10:56 18 She would like to address --
19 MS. McCORD: Deferral.
10:56 20 MS. STEWART: -- she has a few words that
10:56 21 she -- that she would like to say to you before
10:56 22 we take action on our request to defer.
10:56 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Would she rather address
10:56 24 us now, or at the December the 12th when we'll
10:56 25 be taking the action? I think you might -- a
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10:56 1 lot of times that you might want to wait.
10:56 2 We apologize for --
10:56 3 MS. STEWART: Let --
10:56 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- the delay --
10:56 5 MS. STEWART: Could I --
10:56 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- having you up here
10:56 7 twice.
10:56 8 MS. STEWART: Could I confer with her, and
10:56 9 see what --
10:56 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: You might confer with
10:56 11 her. I think it might be more litigious --
12 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
10:56 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- for her to wait till
10:56 14 the 12th.
10:56 15 MS. STEWART: Mrs. -- we -- I will confer
10:56 16 with her. She was aware, Governor, this
10:56 17 morning -- I have spoken with her, and she's
10:56 18 aware that we were going to ask for the
10:56 19 deferral.
10:56 20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor --
10:56 21 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
10:56 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I'd like to move
10:56 23 that we reject the conclusions of law in the
10:56 24 hearing officer's proposed final order. And
10:56 25 that for the next Cabinet meeting on
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10:57 1 December 12th, staff be directed to draft a new
10:57 2 proposal on the order which will certify
10:57 3 Test Lab.
10:57 4 And with that motion, if there is a second,
10:57 5 maybe she would like to speak to that.
10:57 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
10:57 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10:57 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: It's been moved and
10:57 9 seconded --
10:57 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Could I
10:57 11 ask -- could I ask a question, Governor?
10:57 12 Governor, I -- as I understand it, if we
10:57 13 defer this, she will automatically be certified
10:57 14 as of the 4th. So she gets the result she wants
10:57 15 with a deferral.
10:57 16 And this record will -- and this Board will
10:57 17 not be on record for going against the Lavernia
10:57 18 case, and will not be precedential in the -- in
10:57 19 value by anybody else coming up.
10:57 20 So maybe the best result is --
10:57 21 Madam Secretary, is to defer it. And then we
10:57 22 get to what I think you're getting at, but
10:57 23 without having to maybe compromise the former
10:57 24 cases that came before us, and future cases.
10:57 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, if I could
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10:57 1 speak to that issue.
10:58 2 This thing has been going on now for --
10:58 3 well, since November of 1993. And the fact that
10:58 4 we can defer this, and it will become
10:58 5 automatically certified to me is absolutely
10:58 6 phenomenal that that would be the position that
10:58 7 this Board would take. And it would seem to me
10:58 8 that we should stand up and say yes or no.
10:58 9 And not just say because we wait for two
10:58 10 more weeks, this woman is going to become
10:58 11 automatically certified in the meantime because
10:58 12 the time has run out.
10:58 13 MS. STEWART: Governor Chiles, could I add
10:58 14 something?
10:58 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Pardon?
10:58 16 MS. STEWART: Could I add something?
10:58 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, let me just say
10:58 18 that my understanding is there is -- my
10:58 19 understanding is there's probably a majority
10:58 20 here that would like to see her certified.
10:59 21 The concern seems to be as to whether we
10:59 22 are going to set a precedent, and making sure
10:59 23 that we don't set a precedent that bites us
10:59 24 later.
10:59 25 So under those circumstances, it seems
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November 29, 1995
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10:59 1 like, you know, we ought to be able to reach
10:59 2 something so either, you know, we -- we work
10:59 3 this out. And if we have something before us
10:59 4 now that -- that may set a precedent, I don't
10:59 5 want to do that, and I doubt if anybody does.
10:59 6 At the same time, I think the sentiment is
10:59 7 very strong that this lady -- and the factual
10:59 8 situation that everything that she's done, she
10:59 9 deserves to be certified.
10:59 10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Could I have -- ask
10:59 11 a --
10:59 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
10:59 13 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- question?
14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
10:59 15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: My understanding from
10:59 16 our attorneys are that exceptions have been
10:59 17 filed, and that she will not automatically be
10:59 18 certified.
10:59 19 Is that true or untrue?
10:59 20 MS. STEWART: Secretary Mortham, the issue
10:59 21 of automatic certification came up about
10:59 22 15 minutes before this Cabinet meeting. And I
10:59 23 cannot answer that correctly. We have -- I've
11:00 24 spoken with -- with attorneys, and there are
11:00 25 different feelings on that. So I cannot answer
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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November 29, 1995
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11:00 1 that question.
11:00 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
11:00 3 maybe we could resolve it this way: That if we
11:00 4 defer, and according to the motion of the
11:00 5 Secretary of State, and if we have to come back
11:00 6 next time, we'll -- we can probably draft the
11:00 7 motion in such a way where it will not be -- or
11:00 8 draft the order in such a way where it will not
11:00 9 affect any of the future people.
11:00 10 So if, in fact, the exceptions do toll,
11:00 11 the -- the December 4th date -- which there's an
11:00 12 argument that can be made -- but the person who
11:00 13 will be making that argument will probably be
11:00 14 us. Since we don't make the argument, it's
11:00 15 probably moot.
11:00 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I'm just trying
11:00 17 to -- you know, what are you -- what does that
11:00 18 say as far as we're going to come back and make
11:00 19 sure that we draft an order that doesn't set --
11:00 20 you know, that isn't a -- doesn't set a bad
11:00 21 precedent?
11:00 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right. If
11:00 23 one is needed. If one is needed. If no order
11:00 24 is needed, the issue is over, like you stated
11:01 25 today, Governor. If a motion is needed, I'm
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
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November 29, 1995
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11:01 1 sure a motion will be drafted that would not
11:01 2 compromise the law, or will -- what we've been
11:01 3 doing up here.
11:01 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, could I ask
11:01 5 a question --
11:01 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11:01 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and I guess,
11:01 8 General Butterworth, from a legal standpoint.
11:01 9 If we do reject a conclusion of law, as is
11:01 10 called for in the Secretary's motion, does it
11:01 11 require a statement from this body as to why we
11:01 12 reject that motion?
11:01 13 It's my understanding that whenever you
11:01 14 reject a conclusion of law, the onus is on you
11:01 15 to -- to do more than just reject it, you have
11:01 16 to make a statement as to why you disagree and
11:01 17 why you reject it.
11:01 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
11:01 19 I -- my position would be we probably should.
11:01 20 And I think the Lavernia case --
11:01 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: If you're headed
11:01 22 with --
11:01 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right.
11:01 24 In the Lavernia case, the case we're
11:01 25 basically stuck with, and the Lavernia case
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11:01 1 could be distinguished from where we're at right
11:01 2 now because some of the delay over the years has
11:01 3 been caused by the department.
11:01 4 So we can distinguish the Lavernia case,
11:02 5 and we could draft a final order and a motion
11:02 6 for this particular Board to take, which would
11:02 7 not compromise the -- the Court with the
11:02 8 Lavernia case, or the Legislature, and --
11:02 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is the intent of your
11:02 10 motion -- let me just get -- that we -- that we
11:02 11 reject the conclusions of law of the
11:02 12 hearing officer, and that staff be instructed to
11:02 13 draft an appropriate order to --
11:02 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Right.
11:02 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- take effect at the
11:02 16 next --
11:02 17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Correct.
11:02 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- at the next meeting.
19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Uh-hum.
11:02 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have no
11:02 21 problem with that.
11:02 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Got a
11:02 23 second.
11:02 24 So many as favor, say aye.
11:02 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Aye.
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11:02 1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Aye.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
11:02 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Passed.
11:02 4 I don't know that you need to speak now.
11:02 5 But we'd be happy to hear from you.
11:02 6 I think it's -- it's gone in your favor.
11:02 7 MS. CORNWELL: All right. Thank you.
11:02 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:02 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Sometimes it's hard
11:02 10 to tell.
11:02 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's
11:03 12 common courtesy to say thank you.
13 (The Commission on Minority Economic and
14 Business Development Agenda was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
FISCAL ACCOUNTING INFORMATION BOARD
November 29, 1995
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11:03 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Fiscal Accounting
11:03 2 Information Board.
11:03 3 MR. YOUNG: Good morning, Governor.
11:03 4 Martin Young, Secretary, Fiscal Accounting
11:03 5 Information Board.
11:03 6 Request approval of the minutes for the
11:03 7 February 28th, 1995, meeting.
11:03 8 TREASURER NELSON: Motion.
11:03 9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:03 11 Without objection, it's approved.
11:03 12 MR. YOUNG: Request approval of the FFAMIS
11:03 13 Fee Policy Guidelines.
11:03 14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move.
11:03 15 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:03 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:03 17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 MR. YOUNG: Thank you.
19 (The Fiscal Accounting Information Board
20 Agenda was concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 29, 1995
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11:03 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of
11:03 2 Administration.
11:03 3 MR. MADDEN: Good morning, Governor. I'm
11:03 4 Jack Madden. I'm handling the agenda for
11:03 5 Mr. Williams.
11:03 6 Item 1 is approval of the minutes.
11:03 7 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:03 8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:03 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Motion and seconded.
11:03 10 Without objection, approved.
11:03 11 MR. MADDEN: Item 2 is an interest rate
11:03 12 exception for the Bay Creek Community
11:03 13 Development District.
11:03 14 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:03 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:03 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:03 17 Without objection, it's approved.
11:03 18 MR. MADDEN: Item 3 is an interest rate
11:03 19 exception for the Dove Pointe Community
11:03 20 Development District.
11:03 21 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:03 22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
11:03 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:03 24 Without objection, it's approved.
11:04 25 MR. MADDEN: Item 4 is an interest rate
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STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
November 29, 1995
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11:04 1 exception for the Indian Trace Community
11:04 2 Development District.
11:04 3 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:04 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:04 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:04 6 Without objection, it's approved.
11:04 7 MR. MADDEN: Item 5 is an interest rate
11:04 8 exception for the St. Lucie West Services
11:04 9 District.
11:04 10 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:04 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:04 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:04 13 Without objection, it's approved.
11:04 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: The Division of Bond
11:04 15 Finance.
11:04 16 MR. MADDEN: There was one more item.
11:04 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Excuse me.
11:04 18 MR. MADDEN: Item 6 is the extension of the
11:04 19 Hurricane Relief Loan Program.
11:04 20 TREASURER NELSON: Move it.
11:04 21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
11:04 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:04 23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
25 was concluded.)
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
November 29, 1995
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11:04 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Bond --
11:04 2 Division of Bond Finance.
11:04 3 MR. WATKINS: We have several items for
11:04 4 your consideration this morning.
11:04 5 Item 1 is approval of the minutes of the
11:04 6 meeting of October 24th, 1995.
11:04 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:04 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a motion.
11:04 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
10 GOVERNOR CHILES: And a second.
11:04 11 Without objection, it's approved.
11:04 12 MR. WATKINS: Item number 2 is a resolution
11:04 13 to authorize the issuance of 242 million capital
11:04 14 outlay bonds on behalf of the State Board of
11:04 15 Education.
11:05 16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move it.
11:05 17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:05 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:05 19 Without objection, it's approved.
11:05 20 MR. WATKINS: Item number 3 is the report
11:05 21 to sale of 255 million PECO bonds, which were
11:05 22 sold at competitive sale to the low bidder at a
11:05 23 true interest cost of 5.62 percent.
11:05 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is that two hundred
11:05 25 and twenty-five thousand -- or million?
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November 29, 1995
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11:05 1 MR. MADDEN: Two hundred fifty-five million
11:05 2 four hundred thousand --
11:05 3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I've just got a typo.
11:05 4 Move approval.
11:05 5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:05 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:05 7 Without objection, it's approved.
11:05 8 MR. WATKINS: Item number 4 is the report
11:05 9 to sale of three bond issues issued on behalf of
11:05 10 the Florida Housing Finance Agency.
11:05 11 The first is a 94.6 million dollar single
11:05 12 family bond issue sold at negotiated sale at a
11:05 13 true interest cost of 5.87 percent; the second
11:05 14 is a 12.9 million dollar multifamily bond issue
11:05 15 sold at negotiated sale of a true interest cost
11:05 16 of 6.17 percent; and the third is an 8.4 million
11:05 17 dollar multifamily bond issue sold at negotiated
11:06 18 sale at a true interest cost of 5.9 percent.
11:06 19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval, with a
11:06 20 question, Governor.
11:06 21 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:06 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:06 23 Without objection, it's approved.
11:06 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is it -- am I
11:06 25 correct, have we been getting a little bit
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DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
November 29, 1995
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11:06 1 better negotiated bid of late on these housing
11:06 2 projects?
11:06 3 MR. WATKINS: We -- I have been happy with
11:06 4 the -- with the fees and expenses that have been
11:06 5 paid to the underwriters on the negotiated
11:06 6 sale. We hire a financial advisor who polices
11:06 7 that and advises us on that.
11:06 8 And I've been happy with each one that
11:06 9 we've sold so far, that we've got a fair and
11:06 10 reasonable price on the bonds, and the fees and
11:06 11 expenses that were paid were reasonable.
11:06 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: We're doing better than
11:06 13 we were -- than we used to do?
11:06 14 MR. WATKINS: We're moving in the right
11:06 15 direction, Governor.
11:06 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Keep moving.
11:06 17 MR. WATKINS: Thank you.
18 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
19 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
November 29, 1995
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11:06 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Highway
11:06 2 Safety and Motor Vehicles.
11:06 3 MR. DICKINSON: Item 1, Governor, is
11:06 4 approval of the minutes of October 12th, '95,
11:06 5 meeting.
11:06 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
11:06 7 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:06 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
11:06 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:06 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
11 MR. DICKINSON: Item 2 is --
11:07 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection --
13 MR. DICKINSON: -- approval of --
11:07 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- they're approved.
11:07 15 MR. DICKINSON: Item 2 is the quarterly
11:07 16 report.
11:07 17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:07 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:07 19 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:07 20 Without objection, it's approved.
11:07 21 MR. DICKINSON: Item 3 is the request
11:07 22 permission to repeal the following rules. Those
11:07 23 are the rules from the old motor vehicle
11:07 24 inspection program that was abolished in '81.
11:07 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
November 29, 1995
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11:07 1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:07 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:07 3 Without objection, they're approved.
11:07 4 MR. DICKINSON: Item 4 is request approval
11:07 5 and authority to file with the Secretary of
11:07 6 State our Division of Driver License
11:07 7 Administrative Hearing Rule. We are codifying
11:07 8 changes in the statutes from last session for --
11:07 9 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:07 10 MR. DICKINSON: -- hard suspension for
11:07 11 those that are convicted of driving under the
11:07 12 influence.
11:07 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:07 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:07 15 Without objection, they're approved.
11:07 16 MR. DICKINSON: Governor, item 5 is to
11:07 17 request authority to file with the Secretary --
11:07 18 Secretary of State a calibration rule that --
11:07 19 that regulates the devices that measure the
11:07 20 light that's transmitted through the tint that
11:07 21 goes on windows. These blackened windows in the
11:07 22 cars.
11:07 23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:08 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:08 25 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
November 29, 1995
23
11:08 1 Without objection, it's approved.
11:08 2 MR. DICKINSON: We would request a
11:08 3 withdrawal of item number 6.
11:08 4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So move.
11:08 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11:08 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:08 7 Without objection --
8 MR. DICKINSON: And item 7 --
11:08 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- it's approved.
10 MR. DICKINSON: -- is request authority to
11:08 11 contract with the engineering firm for the
11:08 12 relocation of the answering of the call boxes
11:08 13 from here to just west of Marianna.
11:08 14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:08 15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:08 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:08 17 Without objection, it's approved.
11:08 18 Looks like you repealed a lot more rules
11:08 19 than you instituted today.
11:08 20 MR. DICKINSON: We're trying to, Governor.
11:08 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I
11:08 22 notice that many people look good in a beard.
11:08 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: How many is that,
11:08 24 General?
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH:
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAY SAFETY AND MOTOR VEHICLES
November 29, 1995
24
11:08 1 Unfortunately, the person -- no one's in front
11:08 2 of us right now, except the photographer over
11:08 3 here that looks good with a beard.
11:08 4 MR. DICKINSON: I want to look more like
11:08 5 Rick Flagg, so I --
11:08 6 TREASURER NELSON: You've got a long way to
11:09 7 go.
11:09 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It only
11:09 9 takes four votes for us to put a new
11:09 10 commissioner in.
11 (The Department of Highway Safety and Motor
12 Vehicles Agenda was concluded.)
13 *
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 29, 1995
25
11:09 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Department of Revenue.
11:09 2 MR. FUCHS: Item 1 is a request for
11:09 3 approval of the minutes of the October 24th
11:09 4 meeting.
11:09 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
11:09 6 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:09 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:09 8 Without objection, approved.
11:09 9 MR. FUCHS: Items 2 through 8 are consent
11:09 10 rule amendments and repeal.
11:09 11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:09 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:09 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Move approval. Second.
11:09 14 Without objection, approved.
11:09 15 MR. FUCHS: Item 9 is request approval and
11:09 16 acceptance of the Performance Contract for
11:09 17 myself with the Department.
11:09 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: I don't seem to have a
11:09 19 motion.
11:09 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can we defer
11:09 21 this item also?
11:09 22 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:09 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:09 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
11:09 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Question.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 29, 1995
26
11:09 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:10 2 Without objection, it's approved.
11:10 3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Question.
11:10 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question.
11:10 5 SECRETARY MORTHAM: On the issue of -- and
11:10 6 I'm not sure that it would really come under 9
11:10 7 necessarily, maybe 10.
11:10 8 Where is the whole issue of the privatizing
11:10 9 of audits?
11:10 10 MR. FUCHS: Actually, Madam Secretary,
11:10 11 I believe it's a -- a budget issue. The
11:10 12 situation -- I think you may recall last
11:10 13 session, the Legislature provided funding for
11:10 14 privatization of the audits, but no funding of
11:10 15 the -- for the administration of the program.
11:10 16 We are currently in discussions with the
11:10 17 FICPA on a joint appropriations request, if you
11:10 18 will, or going jointly to the Legislature for an
11:10 19 appropriations request to continue the program
11:11 20 for the next fiscal year.
11:11 21 Meanwhile, we are trying to evaluate how
11:11 22 well the CPAs have completed the program as it
11:11 23 has existed to date. And there have -- there
11:11 24 have been glitches in that, and some
11:11 25 continuation of funding or carry-over of funding
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 29, 1995
27
11:11 1 into succeeding years so that we can continue to
11:11 2 pay them.
11:11 3 We are just completed -- or they are just
11:11 4 completing, I should say, some two-and-a-half
11:11 5 years after the initial appropriation, the first
11:11 6 group of audits.
11:11 7 We are also issuing contracts -- you
11:11 8 approved them a couple of meetings ago -- for
11:11 9 the second group of audits, which presumably
11:11 10 will now commence after the tax season. So
11:11 11 there are some logistical problems the industry
11:11 12 has in complying with the needs of the
11:11 13 Department -- or the State, if you will; and
11:12 14 there are discussions ongoing to -- to try and
11:12 15 come up with a logical formula that continues
11:12 16 the program.
11:12 17 SECRETARY MORTHAM: So -- so what you're
11:12 18 saying is is that for this legislative session
11:12 19 coming up, it is your intention to go with
11:12 20 FICPA, and try to get another appropriation in
11:12 21 the budget for this item.
11:12 22 MR. FUCHS: Yes.
11:12 23 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay. Thank you.
11:12 24 MR. FUCHS: Item 10 is request for approval
11:12 25 and concept of the Department's proposed
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 29, 1995
28
11:12 1 legislative package.
11:12 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval with a
11:12 3 question.
11:12 4 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:12 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:12 6 Question.
11:12 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: The -- the issue
11:12 8 of -- and I'm just a little confused about
11:12 9 this. The issue that I think you have in your
11:12 10 package relevant to the paternity issue, you
11:12 11 with me on that one?
11:12 12 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
11:12 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: What -- what's the
11:12 14 difference between that issue and the one that
11:13 15 has a bill filed with it right now on roughly
11:13 16 the same issue?
11:13 17 MR. FUCHS: I think if I understand it
11:13 18 correctly, Commissioner, they're completely
11:13 19 different. In our case, all we're doing is
11:13 20 asking that we be relieved of the requirement to
11:13 21 promulgate rules that we believe are duplicative
11:13 22 and redundant in executing a statute that has
11:13 23 been previously passed.
11:13 24 The -- I believe the issue you're talking
11:13 25 about is one that has been recently proposed to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE
November 29, 1995
29
11:13 1 strengthen the requirement -- or requirements
11:13 2 for paternity establishment.
11:13 3 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Yes. No correlate
11:13 4 there?
11:13 5 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
11:13 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Thank you, Governor.
11:13 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
11:13 8 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
11:13 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Without objection, that's
11:13 10 approved.
11 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was
12 concluded.)
13 *
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 29, 1995
30
11:13 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: State Board of Education.
11:13 2 Good morning, Governor Chiles, members of
11:13 3 the State Board of Education.
11:13 4 Item 1, minutes of the meeting held on
11:14 5 September 28th and October 12th, 1995.
11:14 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:14 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11:14 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:14 9 Without objection, it's approved.
11:14 10 MR. BEDFORD: Item 2, adoption of the Fifth
11:14 11 Supplemental Authorizing Resolution Authorizing
11:14 12 the issuance of Full Faith and Credit, State
11:14 13 Board of Education, Capital Outlay Bonds, 1996
11:14 14 Series A.
11:14 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:14 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:14 17 Without objection, it's approved.
11:14 18 MR. BEDFORD: Item 3, amendment to rule
11:14 19 6A, dash, 1.09421, High School Competency Test
11:14 20 Requirements.
11:14 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:14 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11:14 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:14 24 Without objection, it's approved.
11:14 25 MR. BEDFORD: We have a -- excuse me.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 29, 1995
31
11:14 1 There was a member in the audience that wished
11:14 2 to address this issue.
11:14 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:14 4 MR. BEDFORD: Aaron Wallace, President of
11:14 5 FTP-NEA, has requested an opportunity to speak
11:14 6 on this item.
11:14 7 MR. WALLACE: Good morning again, Governor,
11:14 8 members of the Cabinet.
11:14 9 As a classroom educator of severely
11:14 10 emotionally disturbed students, presently on
11:15 11 leave, serving as President of the Florida
11:15 12 Teaching Profession-NEA, as I think about it, we
11:15 13 prepare students for the 21st century, I know
11:15 14 that there's wide support for higher standards.
11:15 15 I must say also that my organization,
11:15 16 FTP-NEA, has been a long-standing advocate for
11:15 17 higher standards for public ed.
11:15 18 But quite frankly, as a classroom teacher,
11:15 19 I must caution you that I would think that the
11:15 20 floodgates are being opened for additional
11:15 21 failures.
11:15 22 Again, I emphasize the fact that we are in
11:15 23 support of a recommendation such as this. I
11:15 24 personally see value in it, and I think my
11:15 25 organization sees value in it also.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 29, 1995
32
11:15 1 I think about also the stigma that is
11:15 2 attached to students who are categorized as
11:15 3 disadvantaged also, displaying a skill there.
11:15 4 And as that classroom teacher of SED students, I
11:15 5 would not like to see other dilemmas placed on
11:16 6 already disadvantaged students.
11:16 7 I ask you also a friendly question.
11:16 8 Because in my mind, I could see that as we
11:16 9 increase the number of failures, and with the
11:16 10 expediency of a rule such as this, is there
11:16 11 funding for remediation for it. Certainly
11:16 12 I think that that's certainly going to come
11:16 13 about.
11:16 14 I'm also aware that the
11:16 15 Accountability Commission is going to take up
11:16 16 the increase of a grade point average from 1.5
11:16 17 to 2.0. I see value in that also this weekend.
11:16 18 So I would submit, too, that this is
11:16 19 credible information that certainly you would
11:16 20 need in -- in making your decision.
11:16 21 My suggestion to you, as an educator, if
11:16 22 you see this as valuable, as a phase-in as we're
11:16 23 doing some of the things now as we look at
11:16 24 reform in education. Because obviously the
11:16 25 expediency of a rule putting something into
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 29, 1995
33
11:16 1 place very, very quickly will certainly impose
2 the liminous that has been relegated in the
11:16 3 classroom already.
11:16 4 And I would certainly caution you on the
11:16 5 side of our students, on the side of comments
11:17 6 that have been relegated to public ed for, we,
11:17 7 too, are looking for the positive ones to come
11:17 8 very quickly and also in the future.
11:17 9 Thank you very much.
11:17 10 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you, sir.
11:17 11 Without objection then, the item is
11:17 12 approved.
11:17 13 MR. BEDFORD: Item 4, amendment to rule
11:17 14 6A, dash, 1.09981, implementation of Florida's
11:17 15 System of School Improvement and Accountability.
11:17 16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:17 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11:17 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:17 19 Without objection, it's approved.
11:17 20 MR. BEDFORD: Item 5, amendment to
11:17 21 6A, dash, 1.09982, Reporting Requirements, we
11:17 22 are asking to be deferred to the January 23rd
11:17 23 meeting.
11:17 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Just a note on that
11:17 25 one, Governor, before we take action.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
November 29, 1995
34
11:17 1 That is to -- to deal with some JAPC
11:17 2 concerns relative to the key data elements. So
11:17 3 we're just going to ask that that one be
11:18 4 deferred until we get that straightened out,
11:18 5 bring it back before you as quick as possible.
11:18 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:18 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Do you need a motion
11:18 8 on that, Governor?
11:18 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11:18 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So move.
11:18 11 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:18 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:18 13 Without objection, it's --
11:18 14 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you.
15 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- approved.
16 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
17 concluded.)
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
November 29, 1995
35
11:18 1 GOVERNOR CHILES:
11:18 2 Administration Commission.
3 (Attorney General Butterworth exited the
11:18 4 room.)
11:18 5 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 1, recommend
11:18 6 approval of the minutes of the meeting held
11:18 7 November 7th, 1995.
11:18 8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:18 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and --
11:18 10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11:18 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
11:18 12 Without objection, it's approved.
11:18 13 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 2, recommend the
11:18 14 transfer of general revenue appropriations in
11:18 15 the Department of Corrections.
11:18 16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:18 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:18 18 Is it seconded?
11:18 19 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Seconded, Governor.
20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Great.
11:18 21 Without objection, it's approved.
11:18 22 DR. BRADLEY: Item number 3, recommend the
11:18 23 transfer of general revenue appropriations in
11:18 24 the Department of Health and Rehabilitative
11:18 25 Services.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
ADMINISTRATION COMMISSION
November 29, 1995
36
11:18 1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:18 2 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:18 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:18 4 Without objection, it's approved.
11:18 5 DR. BRADLEY: Items 4A and B, recommend
11:18 6 approval of the following in the Justice
11:19 7 Administration Commission: The establishment of
11:19 8 one position of excess in the number fixed by
11:19 9 the Legislature in the Fifth Judicial Circuit,
11:19 10 and the transfer of general revenue
11:19 11 appropriations in the State Attorney,
11:19 12 Thirteenth Circuit.
11:19 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, move
11:19 14 approval of items 4A and B.
11:19 15 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:19 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:19 17 Without objection, it's approved.
18 (The Administration Commission Agenda was
19 concluded.)
20 *
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ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
37
11:19 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Board of Trustees.
11:19 2 MS. WETHERELL: Item 1, minutes.
11:19 3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:19 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:19 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:19 6 Without objection, minutes are approved.
11:19 7 MS. WETHERELL: Item 2, Quarterly
11:19 8 Management Report.
11:19 9 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:19 10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:19 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:19 12 Without objection, it's approved.
11:19 13 MS. WETHERELL: Item 3 --
14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: I have a question --
11:19 15 MS. WETHERELL: -- is an option --
16 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- on that.
11:19 17 MS. WETHERELL: -- agreement.
11:19 18 GOVERNOR CHILES: Question then.
11:19 19 MS. WETHERELL: Question.
11:19 20 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Question on the
11:19 21 Management Report. With all of this land
11:19 22 that -- that we are purchasing, my question
11:20 23 would be: Do we, in fact, have the money --
24 (Attorney General Butterworth entered the
25 room.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
38
11:20 1 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- in the budget to
11:20 2 actually take care of the management of these
11:20 3 lands that we're purchasing?
11:20 4 MS. WETHERELL: Secretary Mortham, the way
11:20 5 that the Legislature has been dealing with that
11:20 6 for the last few years has been -- their policy
11:20 7 has been to increase the amount of management
11:20 8 dollars every year out of our CARL acquisition
11:20 9 fund, not our P2000 fund. And you can't do that
11:20 10 because of bonding restrictions. But out of our
11:20 11 CARL dollars.
11:20 12 It's based on the percentage of dollars
11:20 13 spent under P2000. So what happens is that
11:20 14 every year, the management dollars go up, and
11:20 15 the acquisition dollars go down accordingly.
11:20 16 So the philosophy there is that over time
11:20 17 as we phase out land acquisition, we'll be
11:20 18 increasing the management dollars out of our
11:20 19 CARL trust fund.
11:20 20 Is it adequate? No. But it's -- the
11:20 21 situation has been improving over the last few
11:20 22 years. The Legislature has been focused on it,
11:21 23 and it has improved every year.
11:21 24 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Thank you.
11:21 25 MS. WETHERELL: Okay.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
39
11:21 1 Item 3 is an option agreement for Florida
11:21 2 Springs Coastal Greenway.
11:21 3 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:21 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:21 5 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:21 6 Without objection, it's approved.
11:21 7 MS. WETHERELL: Item 4 is a purchase
11:21 8 agreement for the Sebastian Creek and the
11:21 9 Lake George CARL projects.
11:21 10 We have one speaker, Commissioner -- County
11:21 11 Commissioner Fran Adams.
11:21 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Good morning.
11:21 13 MS. ADAMS: Thank you, Secretary.
11:21 14 Good morning, Governor, and Cabinet. It's
11:21 15 good to see all of y'all here. And I appreciate
11:21 16 the opportunity to express support from
11:21 17 Indian River County for the purchase of the
11:21 18 Coraci property.
11:21 19 This has been a long and tedious process.
11:21 20 Staff has done a wonderful job putting it
11:21 21 together and working with a very difficult
11:21 22 seller. So we're anxious that the property is
11:21 23 purchased that -- for the protection of the
11:22 24 Sebastian River, at the Indian River lagoon, as
11:22 25 well as our water resources.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
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11:22 1 In addition, we'd like to request that
11:22 2 y'all direct staff to work with our county staff
11:22 3 to look at some of this property in terms of
11:22 4 some north county recreation area, and some --
11:22 5 some of our economic development area there.
11:22 6 This has taken some property out of our node at
11:22 7 I-95 and 512.
11:22 8 And we would like to be able to explore
11:22 9 some options with staff. We're not asking for
11:22 10 any commitment. Just simply the ability to work
11:22 11 with staff.
11:22 12 Thank you.
11:22 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
11:22 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:22 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: There's a motion and a
11:22 16 second.
11:22 17 Madam Secretary, not knowing where we're
11:22 18 going in the request of the Commissioner that we
11:22 19 explore these things, I would like us not to get
11:22 20 into a Topsail situation or the P2000 bond
11:22 21 restriction.
11:23 22 By action today, if we don't put a place
11:23 23 card in, or if we don't do something, would we
11:23 24 be putting ourselves into that situation?
11:23 25 MS. WETHERELL: No, sir. I think the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
41
11:23 1 difference is is that -- as I remember that
11:23 2 Cabinet meeting several years back, the issue
11:23 3 was when we purchased Point Washington, and the
11:23 4 feeling of the Trustees was that we would try to
11:23 5 figure out how to surplus certain lands. There
11:23 6 was a contingency --
11:23 7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Right --
11:23 8 MS. WETHERELL: -- of County people.
11:23 9 The difference then and now is that then we
11:23 10 did not have statutory authority to surplus
11:23 11 under the P2000 program. And it took us two
11:23 12 legislative sessions to get the statutory
11:23 13 authority to surplus these lands.
11:23 14 The second difference is that you appointed
11:23 15 a Commission to develop a plan for how this
11:23 16 surplus land would be used, and they deliberated
11:23 17 for several years.
11:23 18 So the difference here is that if you
11:23 19 direct us to -- and we will -- we would anyway
11:24 20 consider it -- but if you direct us to work with
11:24 21 the County to try to figure out if it's
11:24 22 appropriate to surplus, then the staff would
11:24 23 work with the County. And --
11:24 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: So we --
25 MS. WETHERELL: -- we have --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
42
11:24 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- have the legislative
11:24 2 authority now --
3 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir.
11:24 4 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- and we --
11:24 5 MS. WETHERELL: And we didn't then.
11:24 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- don't have to. Okay.
11:24 7 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir.
11:24 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: So we can consider the
11:24 9 staff and the Commissioner's request.
10 MS. WETHERELL: Yes, sir.
11:24 11 So I would recommend that we just proceed
11:24 12 with this acquisition, and you -- you direct us
11:24 13 in good faith to work with the County to see if
11:24 14 there is any appropriate -- and we would bring
11:24 15 that back to you.
11:24 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, it seems to me that
17 it makes sense when we're taking the large
11:24 18 tracts, that we certainly look at recreation,
11:24 19 school, fire districts, you know, industrial
11:24 20 development. As long as we're not -- you know,
11:24 21 we're on the fringes of the property or
11:24 22 something, and we're not destroying what is the
11:24 23 unique part of the property, we need to work
11:24 24 with -- we are taking some property off tax
11:24 25 roles. So we need to be conscious of that to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
BOARD OF TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
November 29, 1995
43
11:24 1 see how we can --
11:24 2 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
11:24 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- be of assistance.
4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I think that's
11:24 5 all we're suggesting is we enter into
6 discussions --
7 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
11:24 8 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- and consider the
11:24 9 possibilities.
11:24 10 MS. WETHERELL: Right.
11:24 11 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yeah.
11:25 12 MS. WETHERELL: We'll bring you back that
11:25 13 for consideration.
11:25 14 Okay.
11:25 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11:25 16 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I need to ask
11:25 17 Commissioner Adams: In your statement, you said
11:25 18 that you all support this acquisition.
11:25 19 MS. ADAMS: Totally.
11:25 20 TREASURER NELSON: But you indicated that
11:25 21 you wanted us to direct the Department of
11:25 22 Environmental Protection to work with
11:25 23 Indian River County for the designation of
11:25 24 surplus land for recreational and industrial
11:25 25 use.
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11:25 1 MS. ADAMS: Correct.
11:25 2 TREASURER NELSON: Now, elucidate further
11:25 3 here. Is it something that they don't want to
11:25 4 talk to Indian River County about the use of
11:25 5 surplus land, or what -- what's the situation --
11:25 6 MS. ADAMS: No, sir. Not at all. We just
11:25 7 wanted to be up-front in this. We -- we've --
11:25 8 you know, we've committed 26 million dollars of
11:25 9 our own money to environmentally sensitive lands
11:25 10 in Indian River County. And we are buying
11:25 11 property on the east side of the Sebastian River
11:26 12 to protect what y'all are also protecting on the
11:26 13 west side.
11:26 14 Our commitment is there. We've laid low,
11:26 15 we know how difficult this acquisition has been
11:26 16 and how hard staff has had to work over almost
11:26 17 ten years to put this together. We have
11:26 18 supported it every step of the way. And above
11:26 19 everything, we want to see it acquired.
11:26 20 Secondly, we'd like to try to be able to
11:26 21 take advantage of some of those portions that
11:26 22 might not be, as the Governor said, as
11:26 23 environmentally sensitive, but part of the
11:26 24 larger tract that would provide additional
11:26 25 recreational opportunities for Indian River
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11:26 1 County residents, as well as -- as supporting
11:26 2 the -- the node that we have taken some of the
11:26 3 environmentally sensitive property out of to
11:26 4 support this acquisition.
11:26 5 Did I answer your question at all?
11:26 6 TREASURER NELSON: Well, is there any
11:26 7 reason, Madam Secretary, that you all wouldn't
11:26 8 be working with them on this surplus land?
11:26 9 MS. WETHERELL: No, sir.
11:26 10 TREASURER NELSON: Okay.
11:26 11 MS. ADAMS: That's fine.
11:26 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: Okay. There's a motion
11:26 13 and a second.
11:27 14 Without objection, it's approved.
11:27 15 MS. WETHERELL: Item 5 is an option
11:27 16 agreement for Paynes Creek Recreation and Park
11:27 17 Additions Project.
11:27 18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:27 19 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Second.
11:27 20 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:27 21 Without objection, it's approved.
11:27 22 MS. WETHERELL: Item 6 is an option
11:27 23 agreement for the Goldhead Branch Recreation and
11:27 24 Parks Additions Project.
11:27 25 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
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11:27 1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:27 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:27 3 Without objection, it's approved.
11:27 4 MS. WETHERELL: Item 7 is a purchase
11:27 5 agreement for Florida Atlantic University.
11:27 6 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Move approval.
11:27 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And second.
11:27 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:27 9 Without objection, it's approved.
11:27 10 MS. WETHERELL: Item 8 is a release of
11:27 11 funds for an undivided interest in Pumpkin Hill
11:27 12 CARL project from St. Johns River Water
11:27 13 Management District.
11:27 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Move approval.
11:27 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
11:27 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded.
11:27 17 Without objection, that's approved.
11:27 18 MS. WETHERELL: Item 9 is an acquisition
11:27 19 agreement with St. Johns River Water Management
11:27 20 District for the Etoniah Creek/Cross Florida
11:27 21 Greenway CARL Project.
11:28 22 And Henry Dean would like to speak briefly.
11:28 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:28 24 MR. DEAN: Good morning.
11:28 25 I done got runned over Saturday by a bull
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11:28 1 gator, so I'm a little lame this morning.
11:28 2 For those of you who might know me, I
11:28 3 actually had some knee surgery two weeks ago,
11:28 4 and I'm well on the road to recuperation.
5 TREASURER NELSON: Good.
11:28 6 MR. DEAN: So it'll be fine in a week or
11:28 7 two.
11:28 8 Governor, members of the Cabinet, we at the
11:28 9 St. Johns District are extremely excited about
11:28 10 moving forward with a joint agreement with you,
11:28 11 the Trustees, and your excellent staff where we,
11:28 12 through our procedures, acquire parcels within
11:28 13 this 60,000 acre CARL project.
11:28 14 We think in times when government, all of
11:28 15 us, are being sort of bashed for different
11:28 16 reasons, when we can point to a partnership
11:28 17 between the Trustees, the Water Management
11:29 18 District, the Nature Conservancy, and see it
11:29 19 working for a change, I think it certainly
11:29 20 should reflect well on you, with your
11:29 21 leadership, and your staff.
11:29 22 And I want to compliment Ginger,
23 Pete Mallison, and Ed Kuester in particular.
11:29 24 And also on the previous item, the Coraci
11:29 25 tract, that also was in our district, the two
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11:29 1 parcels, in Indian River and Volusia County.
11:29 2 And remind everyone that Indian River County,
11:29 3 Brevard County, and Volusia County have all
11:29 4 served as local partners with you and us in
11:29 5 approving bonds and referendums for acquisition.
11:29 6 So when we -- in times when we have a lot
11:29 7 of controversy on other issues, it's nice to
11:29 8 pause, I think, and recognize the partnership of
11:29 9 these counties, the commissioners, your staff,
11:29 10 and the nature conservancy in saving part of
11:29 11 Florida for future generations.
11:30 12 So I just want to encourage you to approve
11:30 13 this item, and again compliment your excellent
11:30 14 staff for their leadership.
11:30 15 And be happy to answer any questions,
11:30 16 Governor.
11:30 17 GOVERNOR CHILES: Thank you.
11:30 18 Thank you very much.
11:30 19 That's been moved and seconded.
11:30 20 So without objection, it is adopted.
11:30 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Governor, I
11:30 22 don't think we did move it, but I will move it.
11:30 23 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. It is moved
11:30 24 and --
11:30 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
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1 GOVERNOR CHILES: -- seconded.
11:30 2 Without objection, it's done.
11:30 3 MS. WETHERELL: All right. Item 10, we're
11:30 4 recommending deferral.
11:30 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion to
11:30 6 defer.
11:30 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:30 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Moved and seconded on a
11:30 9 motion to defer.
11:30 10 Without objection, it's approved.
11:30 11 MS. WETHERELL: Item 11 is a modification
11:30 12 of a submerged land lease. And we have two
13 speakers, Ken Oertel; and the applicant,
11:30 14 Eugene Steffan.
11:30 15 MR. OERTEL: Governor, members of the
11:30 16 Cabinet, I'm Ken Oertel, attorney in
11:31 17 Tallahassee. And I'm here on behalf of the
11:31 18 applicant, Palm Grove Marina.
11:31 19 Mr. Eugene Steffan is here with me. He's the
11:31 20 owner of the marina.
21 I only wish to address one item on this,
11:31 22 and that's to ask for some sympathy from the
11:31 23 Governor and the Cabinet on the question of the
11:31 24 penalty. The staff has requested a penalty of
11:31 25 $17,500 here for what was -- unquestionably was
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11:31 1 a violation of the lease.
11:31 2 We genuinely regret the violation
11:31 3 occurred. But we wish to point out that it was
11:31 4 not intentionally violated. And the
11:31 5 circumstances of this I think stem from a
11:31 6 misunderstanding my client had with where the
11:31 7 boundaries of the leased area were. He
11:31 8 understands now that a violation was committed.
11:31 9 But in his defense, I would say that his
11:31 10 lease is based upon not a square foot basis, but
11:31 11 a gross revenue basis. And when he berthed the
11:31 12 ship outside the exact boundaries of the lease,
11:32 13 he immediately paid the State the percentage
11:32 14 that he was required to from his gross
11:32 15 revenues.
11:32 16 So the State has always been paid on this
11:32 17 lease. This is not a situation where a lease --
11:32 18 owner of a submerged land lease went outside the
11:32 19 boundaries of his lease and pocketed the money
11:32 20 from the extra ship he was berthing there. This
11:32 21 was always done out in the open.
11:32 22 And the staff at the local level I don't
11:32 23 believe considered this to be a very serious
11:32 24 matter. He was told to apply for an amendment
11:32 25 to the lease within a particular period of time,
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11:32 1 and he did so.
11:32 2 When this was sent up here from the local
11:32 3 office, a penalty of $5,000 was recommended.
11:32 4 Now the penalty is $17,500. And I would like to
11:32 5 propose that we would offer to pay $10,000 to
11:32 6 the State as a compromise of this. We don't
11:32 7 want to make a big issue over it, but we would
11:32 8 like to get a sympathetic ear.
11:33 9 And I know Mr. Steffan would like to
11:33 10 address you also.
11:33 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a
11:33 12 question, Governor.
11:33 13 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11:33 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think I'd
11:33 15 like to ask it of you, sir.
11:33 16 My staff advises me that you plan on --
11:33 17 that this particular vessel now is moving on
11:33 18 this month?
11:33 19 MR. OERTEL: Yes, sir.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Is that
21 correct?
11:33 22 MR. OERTEL: That's correct, sir.
11:33 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So really
11:33 24 you do not need this additional land right now
11:33 25 then.
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11:33 1 MR. OERTEL: No. He would like to amend
11:33 2 the lease, because there have been boats docked
11:33 3 at this outboard side of the area for -- off and
11:33 4 on for a long period of time. This is the first
11:33 5 time it's been made an issue.
11:33 6 We've satisfied, you know, all the
11:33 7 requirements the staff has requested. It's just
11:33 8 a question of the penalty. We would like to
11:33 9 amend the lease, and always have wanted to.
11:33 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What is the
11:33 11 size of this particular vessel that's there
11:33 12 now?
11:33 13 MR. OERTEL: The vessel is 167 feet
11:33 14 I believe.
11:33 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What's the
11:33 16 size of the other vessels that are literally in
11:33 17 the --
11:33 18 MR. OERTEL: -- in the marina space
11:33 19 itself?
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- in the
11:33 21 marina space.
22 MR. OERTEL: Up -- we would have to refer
23 to the owners, I believe, who could answer that
11:33 24 better.
11:34 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We see a
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11:34 1 picture of it up here, it looks like it's -- the
11:34 2 gambling ship that's there now, looks like it's
11:34 3 about the size of this Capitol building,
11:34 4 compared to a little 12 foot, 14 foot boats that
11:34 5 are right there.
11:34 6 MR. OERTEL: Well, this is a commercial
11:34 7 area. In the channel, there are shrimp boats
11:34 8 and a large number of commercial vessels in the
11:34 9 entire channel there at the various berthings
11:34 10 and marinas all over the place.
11:34 11 MR. STEFFAN: Governor and Cabinet members,
11:34 12 to address your question on the size of the
11:34 13 vessel and the dockage. Our lineal dockage long
11:34 14 pier in that area is 167 feet, and so is the
11:34 15 ship that we currently have tied up there.
11:34 16 However, over a period of years, we have
11:34 17 had 55 foot, 100 foot, 80 foot vessels tied up
11:34 18 there as a regular course of business to the
11:34 19 dock system. And we have never had any
11:35 20 objection from the DEP prior to four years ago.
11:35 21 If I may, I'm here today to request your
11:35 22 consideration of the fine being imposed on us by
11:35 23 the DEP. In 1983, you know, when I first
11:35 24 obtained the submerged land lease, it was my
11:35 25 understanding that the dockage structures were
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11:35 1 to be within the confines of the lease, not the
11:35 2 boats tied up to those.
11:35 3 Only in '91 when I leased it to this
11:35 4 particular ship, which was on a first come,
11:35 5 first serve basis, did I become aware that the
11:35 6 DEP was interpreting this the column under the
11:35 7 boats. And it was at that time that I
11:35 8 immediately started working to rectify the
11:35 9 situation.
11:35 10 To me, this was a technicality of
11:35 11 interpretation. All these years, since our
11:35 12 docks first were installed, I have always paid
11:36 13 the submerged land lease fees to the State based
11:36 14 on if there were boats docked for that entire
11:36 15 lineal dockage.
11:36 16 Not one penny has been not paid to the
11:36 17 State. This is not an expansion of the marina,
11:36 18 it is just redefining the column of water that
11:36 19 has been used traditionally since 19--
11:36 20 roughly --83.
11:36 21 My consultants and I have diligently worked
11:36 22 on resolving this technicality and problem. And
11:36 23 four years later, we're now here in front of the
11:36 24 Governor and the Cabinet.
11:36 25 I'm sorry that we had technically violated
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11:36 1 the DE-- the intent. And there was no intention
11:36 2 of any violation. I'm here to ask that you
11:36 3 consider this fine, and eliminate it or reduce
11:36 4 it, as Mr. Oertel has previously requested.
11:36 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor --
11:36 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11:36 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- if I
11:36 8 could maybe ask the staff. I guess I'm kind of
11:36 9 concerned.
11:36 10 What I'm hearing from Mr. Oertel and from
11:37 11 the -- the owner of the marina here is that this
11:37 12 was a minor technical violation that somehow or
11:37 13 other got up here before the Cabinet almost
11:37 14 four years to the day after he was notified of
11:37 15 the violation.
11:37 16 My staff advises me that your office
11:37 17 believes that this is a flagrant violation of
11:37 18 the lease.
11:37 19 Now, flagrant violation and this little
11:37 20 mistake seem to be, you know, quite a distance
11:37 21 apart. Maybe you can advise us as to whether
11:37 22 this is really technical, and we're just here
11:37 23 for a minor informality that Mr. Oertel
11:37 24 basically is telling us, or whether this thing
11:37 25 is pretty damn serious.
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11:37 1 MR. STEFFAN: Is the question --
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'm not --
11:37 3 I'm asking the office.
11:37 4 MR. CRAFT: Jeremy Craft with DEP.
11:37 5 I don't think we've characterized it as
11:37 6 either. Leases, however, do come with surveys,
11:37 7 boundary surveys. So that the boundary of the
11:37 8 lease is well-known. Leasing is based on
11:38 9 preempted area. I think that is well-known.
11:38 10 We did notify Mr. Steffan that his
11:38 11 intention of putting a ship at the end of the
11:38 12 dock would be a violation of the lease.
11:38 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: And what
11:38 14 year was that, sir?
11:38 15 MR. CRAFT: That was in 1991.
11:38 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. And
11:38 17 what did he do?
11:38 18 MR. CRAFT: Proceeded with the lease, but
11:38 19 he did make an application to amend his -- or he
11:38 20 proceeded with docking the ship. But he did
11:38 21 make an application to amend his lease that
11:38 22 the --
11:38 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: When did he
11:38 24 do that?
11:38 25 MR. CRAFT: That was in early '92.
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1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
11:38 2 The -- why are we here three years later? Why
11:38 3 wasn't this thing resolved in '92?
11:38 4 Maybe he's right, maybe it is a
11:38 5 technicality.
11:38 6 MR. CRAFT: It should have been resolved in
11:38 7 '92. I don't think either the Department or
11:38 8 Mr. Steffan viewed this as a priority. A
11:38 9 temporary use agreement was provided to him to
11:38 10 allow him to continue the operation pending
11:38 11 completion of the application to modify the
11:38 12 lease and the period of time, and that
11:39 13 modification just drug on.
11:39 14 TREASURER NELSON: Could I ask --
11:39 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, there's got to be
11:39 16 some reason it started off -- you know, I see
11:39 17 that you did notify Mr. Steffan before he
11:39 18 actually docked the ship that there was a
11:39 19 violation. He docked the ship, then he entered
11:39 20 into -- there was a temporary use thing.
11:39 21 Why are you asking for this kind of fine?
11:39 22 I mean, you weren't going to do that the first
11:39 23 day, were you, in '91?
11:39 24 MR. CRAFT: There is a policy adopted by
11:39 25 the Governor and Cabinet on instituting fines.
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11:39 1 And what we have provided is the fine based on
11:39 2 that policy. It does not incorporate in that
11:39 3 fine consideration anything dealing with time
11:39 4 delays. We eliminated any of that time
11:39 5 consideration. This is just the base fine based
11:39 6 on use of State-owned lands without a lease.
11:39 7 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
11:39 8 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11:39 9 MR. CRAFT: And you do have the discretion
11:40 10 to alter it the way Mr. Oertel has suggested.
11:40 11 TREASURER NELSON: I want to find out what
11:40 12 our government did and when they did it.
11:40 13 As I understand, in December '91, a site
11:40 14 inspection revealed that the ship was there.
11:40 15 And then a year later, a temporary use agreement
11:40 16 was issued for an additional one-year mooring of
11:40 17 the cruise ship; is that correct?
11:40 18 MR. CRAFT: Yes, sir.
11:40 19 TREASURER NELSON: Does that government
11:40 20 action not imply acceptance of the mooring of
11:40 21 the ship?
11:40 22 MR. CRAFT: It implies that we think an
11:40 23 amendment of the lease will be an appropriate
11:40 24 action for the State that --
11:40 25 TREASURER NELSON: Did DEP penalize him at
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11:40 1 the time?
11:40 2 MR. CRAFT: No, sir.
11:40 3 TREASURER NELSON: It sure seems clear to
11:40 4 me --
11:40 5 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Could I back up a
11:40 6 little further and follow that line of
11:41 7 questioning?
11:41 8 Let's assume for just a minute -- and
11:41 9 I think it needs to be noted that we're talking
11:41 10 about an aquatic preserve here, which has
11:41 11 special action taken by the Legislature as far
11:41 12 back as 1975 to protect any water that's in that
11:41 13 status.
11:41 14 If there had never been the ship placed at
11:41 15 the end of that dock, and the gentleman had come
11:41 16 forward and asked for a special permit in order
11:41 17 to do that, recognizing that we're talking about
11:41 18 a ship with I think a 6 foot draft, which
11:41 19 clearly is close to or does drag bottom, or at
11:41 20 least creates a great deal of turbidity in an
11:41 21 aquatic preserve, would we have issued such a
11:41 22 special permit?
11:41 23 And I'm going to go further and surmise
11:41 24 that we would by virtue of the fact that we are
11:41 25 here today, and part of this recommendation is
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11:41 1 to now issue that special permit.
11:41 2 And I guess my last question, and the big
11:41 3 one is: Why in an aquatic preserve would we do
11:41 4 that?
11:42 5 Now, let's back up again and say the ship
11:42 6 was there. As Commissioner Nelson mentioned, we
11:42 7 pointed out that the ship was there, then issued
11:42 8 an extension of one year; are now back today to
11:42 9 request full permit, special permit, that in the
11:42 10 interim we're recommending a fine.
11:42 11 I'm real confused. It is either right or
11:42 12 it's wrong. And I think what we're doing here
11:42 13 today is saying it's both right and wrong.
11:42 14 MR. CRAFT: Several factors there. I think
11:42 15 we would have allowed prospective use of the
11:42 16 facility had he asked for it before putting the
11:42 17 ship there.
11:42 18 I think in that consideration though, we
11:42 19 would have adopted some management practices
11:42 20 such as the use of tugboats for moving the ship
11:42 21 in and out.
11:42 22 When he came to the site with the ship,
11:42 23 there was considerable problems with it, as you
11:43 24 mentioned, prop scarring, tearing up the bottom,
11:43 25 that resulted in some enforcement action by the
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11:43 1 old DER in violation of their permit, and
11:43 2 because of the turbidity being stirred up.
11:43 3 There was a period of time in which that was
11:43 4 worked out and best management practices were
11:43 5 adopted. That would have been done before the
11:43 6 fact had he applied before the fact.
11:43 7 There's also the issue of some punitive
11:43 8 penalty on this. The fact that he had a written
11:43 9 notice both in the form of the lease, and in the
11:43 10 form of the letter we sent him notifying him it
11:43 11 would be a violation.
11:43 12 I think we have some concern that an
11:43 13 individual who intentionally goes out and uses
11:43 14 property over which he has no authority for that
11:43 15 use should be hit with some sort of penalty.
11:44 16 And is -- are we sending mixed messages? I
11:44 17 don't think so. I think we're saying, here's a
11:44 18 penalty for doing it outside the setup that we
11:44 19 have, the procedures we have. But it is a use
11:44 20 that we otherwise would have approved.
11:44 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is it -- if I can
11:44 22 continue, Governor.
11:44 23 Let's stick with the aquatic preserve
11:44 24 issue. Is this a relatively unusual exemption
11:44 25 for an aquatic preserve situation to allow a
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11:44 1 boat of this magnitude, with this kind of draft,
11:44 2 even with special conditions placed upon it,
11:44 3 to -- to be special permitted?
11:44 4 MR. CRAFT: It's not an exemption. But I
11:44 5 don't think it's unusual to allow a boat this
11:44 6 close to a navigation channel if there are
11:44 7 appropriate controls put on it to have a use.
11:44 8 We would tend to work with applicants regardless
11:44 9 of where they are to put uses that are
11:45 10 acceptable environmentally into place.
11:45 11 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I mean, you
11:45 12 understand where I'm coming from.
11:45 13 MR. CRAFT: I think so.
11:45 14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: We're arguing today
11:45 15 about five or ten thousand dollars in fine. I'm
11:45 16 going all the way back -- and I think others are
11:45 17 going all the way back -- to determine if a
11:45 18 special permit in this particular situation is
11:45 19 or was ever appropriate in the first place.
11:45 20 Now, that helps me by telling me that it is
11:45 21 not a rarity in order to grant such a special
11:45 22 permit with special consideration. But the
11:45 23 mixed -- mixed message issue that you alluded to
11:45 24 is still a big one.
11:45 25 MS. WETHERELL: The -- if I can just -- a
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11:45 1 little bit further on the aquatic preserve
11:45 2 point.
11:45 3 Aquatic preserves, you know, are managed
11:45 4 under a particular rule. And, you know, if
11:45 5 there is any activity proposed which does not
11:45 6 have a negative environmental impact, we
11:45 7 would -- we would be prohibited from disallowing
11:46 8 that.
11:46 9 So, you know, in this case, as I think
11:46 10 Jeremy Craft has pointed out, this is not
11:46 11 unusual in that the placement of this particular
11:46 12 vessel, if it is -- if you use best management
11:46 13 practices, you moor it a certain way, you have
11:46 14 it towed, you know, there is not a negative
11:46 15 environmental impact.
11:46 16 And so it's not unusual that we do this in
11:46 17 other aquatic preserves --
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Is your --
11:46 19 MS. WETHERELL: -- as long as you have
11:46 20 those best management practices.
11:46 21 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm sorry.
11:46 22 Is your recommendation regarding just the
11:46 23 reintroduction of this particular vessel, or is
11:46 24 this alluding to any particular vessel with any
11:46 25 particular draft relative to bottom?
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11:46 1 MS. WETHERELL: It would have a certain
11:46 2 draft.
11:46 3 MR. CRAFT: Yeah.
4 MS. WETHERELL: But it could be any vessel
11:46 5 that had to meet the same conditions, and we'd
11:46 6 have those --
11:46 7 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: So, in other words,
11:46 8 the special --
11:46 9 MS. WETHERELL: The conditions would --
11:46 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- the special
11:46 11 conditions are relative to draft, and not a
11:46 12 particular vessel.
11:46 13 MS. WETHERELL: That's -- not with this --
14 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Any vessel --
11:46 15 MS. WETHERELL: -- particular cruise ship.
16 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Any vessel --
11:46 17 MS. WETHERELL: No. It's any vessel --
18 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- that meets those
19 particular --
20 MS. WETHERELL: -- that has to meet
11:46 21 these --
11:46 22 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- draft --
11:46 23 MS. WETHERELL: That's correct.
11:46 24 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: -- conditions.
11:46 25 MS. WETHERELL: That's correct.
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11:47 1 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
11:47 2 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes, sir.
11:47 3 TREASURER NELSON: -- as I see it, there
11:47 4 are two issues here, Madam Secretary, and you
11:47 5 tell me if this is correct.
11:47 6 Number one, we have the issue on the fines
11:47 7 of past action.
11:47 8 MS. WETHERELL: Uh-hum.
11:47 9 TREASURER NELSON: And then we have the
11:47 10 issue as to the future use of this property.
11:47 11 Now, on the -- on the basis of what I've heard
11:47 12 here, it sounds like that the government is at
11:47 13 least partially culpable in that the temporary
11:47 14 use permit was given here and so forth.
11:47 15 With regard to the second issue on future
11:47 16 use, how much of a commercial area of
11:47 17 activity -- I notice there are marinas all up
11:47 18 and down here -- this Matanzas-Estero Pass,
11:47 19 there's a shrimp boat fleet, 50 to 60 foot
11:47 20 boats, that is right down the way.
11:47 21 So how does -- what is your recommendation
11:48 22 with regard to the future use of this facility?
11:48 23 MS. WETHERELL: Well, you know, given the
11:48 24 type of activity that's in that area, and the
11:48 25 resources, the natural resources in that area,
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11:48 1 I think that the activity is appropriate given
11:48 2 that they follow these best management
11:48 3 practices.
11:48 4 So, you know, I think the activity is
11:48 5 compatible with what's there, you know, that's
11:48 6 why we've recommended this the way we have.
11:48 7 In terms of the fine and the past activity,
11:48 8 we're basing the fine on a formula that we're
11:48 9 instructed to use. It does not preclude the
11:48 10 Cabinet, and hasn't in the past, from using your
11:48 11 discretion to decide what you think is a better
11:48 12 balance.
11:48 13 But in this case, weighing what we thought
11:48 14 was in some cases less than a cooperative
11:48 15 attitude, we felt that this was a fair fee. But
11:48 16 we -- we certainly would, you know, not object
11:48 17 if you feel otherwise to do something different.
11:49 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if
11:49 19 I can maybe --
11:49 20 Are you finished, Bill?
11:49 21 TREASURER NELSON: I just wanted to ask one
11:49 22 follow-up question.
11:49 23 If you could, Madam Secretary, could you
11:49 24 educate me as to how you can consider in an
11:49 25 aquatic preserve a commercial activity that is
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11:49 1 apparently present here all up and down this
11:49 2 particular pass.
11:49 3 MS. WETHERELL: That's certainly not
11:49 4 unusual around the state. And aquatic
11:49 5 preserves, as you probably know, we have 42,
11:49 6 43, '4 aquatic preserves in the state.
11:49 7 Some of them are very pristine and have
11:49 8 very little activity on them, have a lot of
11:49 9 natural resource value.
11:49 10 Others are commercial -- I could name a
11:49 11 few, but I'd probably make some people upset --
11:49 12 that are less than pristine and are highly
11:49 13 commercialized. And so aquatic preserves vary
11:49 14 greatly around the state.
11:49 15 And where they are more commercial and less
11:49 16 natural resource value, that's where you
11:50 17 typically, you know, have seen in the past a
11:50 18 high degree of development. And it has become a
11:50 19 commercial recreational area.
11:50 20 And in those areas where there's not
11:50 21 those -- a lot of sea grass and other values, we
11:50 22 find it compatible.
11:50 23 TREASURER NELSON: Thank you.
11:50 24 MS. WETHERELL: The rules provide for that.
11:50 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
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11:50 1 just expanding on what Commissioner Nelson
11:50 2 stated. We do have two issues before us. Why
11:50 3 do we just not bifurcate them and vote on maybe
11:50 4 possibly -- we can just vote on each of the two
11:50 5 at a time. First vote on the fine, and then
11:50 6 vote on whether or not we want to give them the
11:50 7 expansion or not.
11:50 8 So not to only have them lumped in one,
11:50 9 lump them in two. I would suggest that,
11:50 10 Governor. And I --
11:50 11 Therefore, I would make the motion that we
11:50 12 bifurcate and we deal with the issue of the fine
11:50 13 first, and I would move that we accept staff
11:50 14 recommendation on the fine.
11:50 15 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Second.
11:50 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Well, I think we could
11:50 17 bifurcate, that's a legitimate motion. But I
11:51 18 don't think you can bifurcate and approve all at
11:51 19 the same time.
11:51 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. I
11:51 21 move we bifurcate.
11:51 22 GOVERNOR CHILES: Break it up a little bit.
11:51 23 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll second.
11:51 24 GOVERNOR CHILES: It'll take more than one
11:51 25 bifurcation --
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11:51 1 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll bifurcate my
11:51 2 second.
11:51 3 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. Motion and
11:51 4 second on splitting the issues.
11:51 5 Without objection, that's passed.
6 Now.
11:51 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: My second
11:51 8 motion is, Governor, the staff recommendation on
11:51 9 the -- on the fine.
11:51 10 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: And I will second
11:51 11 that, Governor.
11:51 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. That's been
11:51 13 moved and seconded.
11:51 14 Yes, sir.
11:51 15 TREASURER NELSON: On discussion, I usually
11:51 16 find myself approving with my brother here. But
11:51 17 I just can't see if they offered him this
11:51 18 temporary use permit that he should have a
11:51 19 $17,000 fine. $17,500.
11:51 20 It just seems to me that there's too much
11:51 21 government condescension to -- to this
11:51 22 activity. And to impose a full fine like that
11:51 23 seems to me to be very punitive.
11:51 24 So I would offer an amendment to the motion
11:52 25 that we eliminate the fine.
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11:52 1 GOVERNOR CHILES: Is there a second?
11:52 2 Would you like to offer another motion?
11:52 3 TREASURER NELSON: That --
11:52 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Bifurcated or
11:52 5 otherwise.
11:52 6 TREASURER NELSON: That we bifurcate the
11:52 7 fine.
11:52 8 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Governor, I'll --
11:52 9 GOVERNOR CHILES: Yes.
11:52 10 SECRETARY MORTHAM: -- I'll venture forth
11:52 11 with an amendment for a $10,000 fine.
11:52 12 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right.
11:52 13 I have not heard a second.
11:52 14 SECRETARY MORTHAM: Okay.
11:52 15 GOVERNOR CHILES: So we're -- we're at the
11:52 16 motion --
11:52 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor,
11:52 18 what concerns me -- and I mean, I'll probably
11:52 19 bring it up later, too.
11:52 20 But what concerns -- my staff tells me that
11:52 21 the tone of the Department was a little
11:52 22 different during staff meeting -- or during the
11:52 23 Cabinet aides meeting last week than it is
11:52 24 today.
11:52 25 And my staff notes reflect something
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11:52 1 entirely different than what's being said today
11:52 2 by the Department. So, I mean, I really don't
11:53 3 know. I mean, if -- if what I'm hearing here
11:53 4 today, I would probably second the Secretary of
11:53 5 State's motion.
11:53 6 But what I see here in my notes and what's
11:53 7 occurred in four year delays, and most of them
11:53 8 being on the applicant, who's not an
11:53 9 unsophisticated businessman at all, I -- I don't
11:53 10 know. I think I -- I think the staff has
11:53 11 analyzed this very well. And I think we should
11:53 12 go along with their recommendation of it.
11:53 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I think also,
11:53 14 Governor, I want to explain the reason for my
11:53 15 second.
11:53 16 I've examined this from the inside out, as
11:53 17 I know all the members of the State Board have.
11:53 18 And I came in with a little different feeling on
11:53 19 this this morning actually.
11:53 20 I was a little bit more concerned about the
11:53 21 actual special permit even being granted with an
11:53 22 extension in the first place, or ever being
11:53 23 granted in the future. I've somewhat changed my
11:53 24 position on that based on comments made by the
11:53 25 Secretary and members of staff today.
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11:53 1 But I have not changed my position on
11:53 2 the -- the issuance of the fine. Again, I
11:54 3 allude to the fact that this was an aquatic
11:54 4 preserve. I wish that things had gone
11:54 5 differently at the beginning of this process.
11:54 6 They did not.
11:54 7 But, nevertheless, there was a very large
11:54 8 ship going in and out of a very sensitive piece
11:54 9 of aquatic preserve, no doubt doing what may be
11:54 10 permanent harm to -- to that particular part of
11:54 11 that aquatic preserve.
11:54 12 And again, we're really arguing over
11:54 13 $10,000, give or take. And I really feel
11:54 14 strongly that if the second part of this vote
11:54 15 goes the way it might, that this $24,216, which
11:54 16 I still feel is appropriate, will be somewhat
11:54 17 quickly reclaimed based on the special permit
11:54 18 and the ability with certain conditions to dock
11:54 19 other boats at the end of that particular pier.
11:54 20 And I think the difference in the fine from
11:54 21 10,000 to 24,000 can be reclaimed rather
11:54 22 quickly.
11:54 23 So I -- I've somewhat changed my position
11:55 24 on this, and I think the 24,000 is -- is most
11:55 25 appropriate, even regardless of the
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11:55 1 circumstances they got in.
11:55 2 MS. WETHERELL: Commissioner, the -- the
11:55 3 lease fee is the 24,000, the fine is 17,000.
11:55 4 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'm sorry.
11:55 5 Seventeen.
11:55 6 GOVERNOR CHILES: All right. We're without
11:55 7 a second on the $10,000 fine, we're back to
11:55 8 $17,000.
11:55 9 So many as favor that, signify by saying
11:55 10 aye.
11:55 11 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Aye.
11:55 12 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: Aye.
13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Aye.
11:55 14 GOVERNOR CHILES: Opposed, no.
11:55 15 TREASURER NELSON: No.
11:55 16 GOVERNOR CHILES: Aye's have it.
11:55 17 TREASURER NELSON: Now, the second part of
11:55 18 the bifurcation.
11:55 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move we
11:55 20 defer the second part of the bifurcation,
11:55 21 Governor, until there's more information as a
11:55 22 aquatic preserve.
11:55 23 And since this gentleman in a month is not
11:55 24 going to have this vessel here anyway, I think
11:55 25 we'll have plenty of time to look at it,
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11:55 1 determine whether or not this issue should,
11:55 2 in fact, be brought before us back then.
11:55 3 I feel like when someone goes into the
11:55 4 aquatic preserve, that everything should happen
11:56 5 very quickly. It did not in this case. I think
11:56 6 we should have -- at least have an opportunity
11:56 7 to look at it.
11:56 8 I'm not saying that I'm going to vote no on
11:56 9 it, but I'd like to have more information on
11:56 10 it. Because I'm not quite sure how they would
11:56 11 have voted back in 1991 and 1992. We had a
11:56 12 totally --
11:56 13 COMMISSIONER BROGAN: I'll --
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- different
11:56 15
