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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 APPEARANCES:
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 3
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 4
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 5 2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:43 a.m.) 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of 4 Administration. 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on the 6 minutes. 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 9 Without objection, Item 1 is approved. 10 Item 2. 11 MR. HERNDON: Item 2 is approval of a 12 fiscal determination in an amount not exceeding 13 eight million four hundred and forty thousand 14 dollar tax exempt, and two million 15 eight hundred and thirty thousand dollar 16 tax exempt subordinate Florida Housing Finance 17 Corporation multifamily revenue bond for 18 Island Club Apartments in Volusia County. 19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 2. 20 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 22 Without objection, it's approved. 23 MR. HERNDON: Item 3 is approval of a 24 fiscal determination of an amount not exceeding 25 thirteen million five hundred thousand dollar ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 6 2 thirty-five thousand dollar tax exempt 3 subordinate Florida Housing Finance Corporation 4 revenue bond for the Reflections Apartments in 5 Hillsborough County. 6 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 3. 7 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 9 Without objection, it's approved. 10 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 4 is approval of 11 a fiscal determination of an amount not 12 exceeding ten million six hundred and twenty 13 thousand dollar tax exempt, Florida Housing 14 Finance Corporation revenue bond for 15 Lake Forest Apartments in Volusia County. 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Motion on 4. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 19 Without objection, it's approved. 20 MR. HERNDON: Item 5 is approval of a 21 fiscal determination of an amount not exceeding 22 ten million seven hundred and fifty thousand 23 dollar tax exempt, and three million 24 nine hundred and thirty-five thousand dollar 25 tax exempt subordinate Florida Housing Finance ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 7 2 Apartments in Hillsborough County. 3 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 5. 4 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 6 Without objection, it's approved. 7 MR. HERNDON: Number 6 is approval of a 8 fiscal determination of an amount not exceeding 9 eight million three hundred thousand dollar 10 tax exempt, Florida Housing Finance Corporation 11 housing revenue bond for the Grande Court 12 Apartments in Duval County. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I move Item 6. 14 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MR. HERNDON: Item 7, approval of a fiscal 18 determination of an amount not exceeding eight 19 million six hundred and fifty thousand dollar 20 tax exempt, and two hundred and seventy-five 21 thousand dollar taxable Florida Housing Finance 22 Corporation housing revenue bond for 23 Pinnacle Lake Apartments in Dade County, 24 Florida. 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 7. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 8 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 3 Without objection, it's approved. 4 MR. HERNDON: Item 8, approval of a fiscal 5 determination of an amount not exceeding 6 ten million eighty thousand dollar tax exempt 7 Housing Finance Corporation revenue bond for 8 Hunter's Run Apartments in Clay County, 9 Florida. 10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 8. 11 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 13 Without objection, it's approved. 14 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 9 is the fund 15 activity report analysis for the month of 16 August 2001. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 7 (sic). 18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Tom, just -- on the 20 Chiles Endowment -- 21 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- where -- what's the 23 status of -- it says we're about 1.2 billion -- 24 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- which is what we put in, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 9 2 MR. HERNDON: Approximately, yes, sir. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do we have -- do you 4 remember if we have two more -- 5 MR. HERNDON: We have two more tranches to 6 come. We've also paid out one series of 7 contributions to the programs themselves -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. 9 MR. HERNDON: -- from the -- from the 10 proceeds of the first deposit, plus the first 11 tranche. So -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we have two 13 two hundred million dollar deposits yet to 14 be -- 15 MR. HERNDON: Yet to -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- made. 17 MR. HERNDON: -- come. That's correct. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 19 MR. HERNDON: The next one is this coming 20 January, then there'll be the final one the 21 following January. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 23 MR. HERNDON: Governor, and -- and members 24 of the Board, with your permission -- and I 25 talked with your offices about this -- we have ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 10 2 is kicking off the education campaign. 3 The help lines for the employers went live 4 yesterday, as did the employer training 5 seminars. 6 And then I have just a couple of brief 7 status report items on the DB/DC program that 8 you might find interesting. 9 So with your permission, we can run this 10 video. 11 (Thereupon, a videotape was published to 12 the Cabinet.) 13 MR. HERNDON: As I mentioned, Governor, 14 and -- and members -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Were those actors, or -- or 16 State employees? 17 MR. HERNDON: There are a couple of paid 18 actors in there, but the vast majority of them 19 are State employees. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good. 21 I thought that was excellent. 22 MR. HERNDON: As I mentioned, we started 23 the employer training seminars yesterday. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Was Jim Francis was an 25 actor, or was he -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 11 2 the guild? 3 MR. HERNDON: No, he did not. 4 And we also started the employee -- the 5 employer hot line yesterday. 6 And by the way, that number for anybody 7 who's interested, is 1-866/FRS-2121. 8 And for employees, it's 866/44-MyFRS. 9 As you can see, Governor, we've tried to 10 brand everything. You see a lot -- a little 11 bit different lexicon now, you see a different 12 logo for the FRS, we're working with the 13 Division of Retirement, and that's all working 14 out very smoothly. And we're very optimistic 15 about the way this program will unfold. 16 On that point, if I might just informally 17 give you a couple of brief updates. 18 As you know, there was some discussion 19 about the Legislature perhaps tapping into some 20 of the FRS surplus this legislative session. 21 That does not appear to be the case. 22 Based on the activities thus far, we're 23 optimistic that that will stay that way. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: The night is still young. 25 MR. HERNDON: I understand. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 12 2 thing. 3 In addition to that, as -- as you all 4 discussed at our last meeting, the Cat Fund 5 proposal that Commissioner Gallagher was 6 interested in has -- has not had much 7 prosperity thus far. But we're still -- we're 8 still optimistic that -- that it will go 9 forward. 10 And, finally, I wanted to just mention by 11 way of -- of information, I had provided you 12 all with a -- a memorandum based on our 13 conversation with SAFECO. 14 We discussed SAFECO's situation last time. 15 They were a close semifinalist in the cut when 16 we went down to eight firms. We met with 17 SAFECO for a couple of hours, they brought in 18 their -- some of their senior staff. And we've 19 provided to you a -- a memorandum that briefly 20 highlighted our sense of the issues that they 21 had outlined, and our recommendation that we 22 continue with the cut at eight, and not include 23 SAFECO. 24 As it stands right now, we don't intend to 25 do so. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 13 2 recommendation for the bundled provider 3 selection from the staff is scheduled to be 4 issued this Friday. 5 And we will go to our Advisory Councils 6 next week, and then to you all on the 14th, 7 that Wednesday meeting, with -- with those 8 recommendations. 9 So we're on track, the program is starting 10 to unfold in a very tangible way, and -- and 11 we're very optimistic about -- about moving 12 forward. 13 So -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 15 MR. HERNDON: Thank you. 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: You know, for years, 17 Tom, we did everything to keep the Florida 18 Retirement System and the State Board of 19 Administration, like, the best kept secret in 20 Florida. Like, don't let anybody know it's 21 really there. 22 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Times have changed. 24 MR. HERNDON: Yes, sir, they have. 25 Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 14 2 was concluded.) 3 * * * 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 15 2 I'm sorry. Division of Bond -- 3 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Bond Finance -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Finance. 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- is next. 6 No, no, don't get so anxious. 7 Motion on the minutes. 8 MR. WATKINS: Was that a test, Governor? 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: No, it wasn't. It was a 11 mess up. 12 Moved and seconded. 13 Without objection, it's approved. 14 Item 2. 15 MR. WATKINS: Item 2 is a report of award 16 on the competitive sale of seven million 17 nine hundred and ninety thousand dollars of 18 Florida Board of Education, as the successor to 19 the Board of Regents, revenue parking facility 20 revenue bonds. The bonds were awarded to the 21 low bidder at a true interest cost of 22 4.45 percent. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a motion? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion. 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 16 2 Is there a second? 3 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 5 Without objection, it's approved. 6 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 3 is a report of 7 award on the competitive sale of two hundred 8 sixty-eight million six hundred and 9 forty thousand dollars of Florida Forever 10 Revenue Bonds. 11 The transaction consisted of 100 million 12 dollars in new money to fund estimated cash 13 needs for land acquisitions through 14 March of '02, and 168.7 million dollars in 15 refunding bonds. The bonds were awarded to the 16 low bidder at a true interest cost of 17 4.06 percent. 18 The refunding portion of the transaction 19 resulted in gross debt service savings of 20 fourteen-and-a-half million, or 11.4 million on 21 a present value basis. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Wow. 23 Is there a motion? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion. 25 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Motion. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 17 2 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 4 Without objection, it's approved. 5 MR. WATKINS: Item Number 4 is a report of 6 award on the competitive sale of two hundred 7 nine million seven hundred and eighty-five 8 thousand dollars of PECO refunding bonds. 9 The bonds were awarded to the low bidder at 10 a true interest cost of 5.07 percent, resulting 11 in gross debt service savings of 12 30.8 million dollars, or 17.9 million on a 13 present value basis. 14 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. 15 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Move it. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 19 Without objection, it's approved. 20 MR. WATKINS: Thank you, Governor. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 22 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was 23 concluded.) 24 * * * 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE 18 2 DR. ZINGALE: Request approval of minutes. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion on 4 minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 DR. ZINGALE: Only one other item, ten 9 ad valorem rules. Relatively uncontroversial. 10 Six of them come from law changes last year. 11 Again, primarily dealing with forms and -- 12 and technical levels. One is a cleanup of 13 an -- of an obsolete reference to a 1980 14 interim roll; and three are clarifications of 15 penalty and interest and their use, and the 16 assurance that private colleges and 17 universities are included in the ad valorem 18 exemption. 19 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 2. 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 22 Without objection, it's approved. 23 Thank you, Doctor. 24 (The Department of Revenue Agenda was 25 concluded.) ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 19 2 Hello, David. 3 MR. STRUHS: Good morning. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on minutes. 5 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 7 Without objection, it's approved. 8 Item 2. 9 MR. STRUHS: Item 2, we're recommending 10 approval. It's a request to expand the 11 boundaries of two national estuarine reserves 12 in the state of Florida: Apalachicola and 13 Rookery Bay. 14 This is a fascinating program. It requires 15 no additional money from the State of Florida, 16 no additional FTEs, no additional rules or 17 regulations, and we don't have to change any of 18 our management plans for these coastal 19 protected areas. 20 But what it does do is it allows us to form 21 some strategic partnerships with the Federal 22 government and private industry. 23 We've had a good record. Over the last 24 three years in Florida, we've got 8.5 million 25 dollars of -- of Federal dollars to help manage ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 20 2 an opportunity to continue to build on that 3 partnership. 4 We recommended approval of the item. 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion of it. 6 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 8 Without objection, it's approved. 9 MR. STRUHS: Item 3, as you know, we on a 10 regular basis go back and review how we're 11 managing our land, compared to the actual plan 12 to manage the land. And it's a useful 13 management tool, one that we're paying more and 14 more attention to. 15 This is an agenda item where we would ask 16 you to consider and accept the findings of the 17 management review team for ten different 18 properties. The details I think are attached 19 to the back of your package. 20 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 22 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor, I have a 23 question. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, please. 25 SECRETARY HARRIS: I just want to call on ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 21 2 We keep -- I want to applaud the 3 performance on this, as noted that we still 4 have insufficient funds and -- and 5 understaffing sometimes, which is difficult, 6 and that's a function of the Legislature. 7 We'll have to -- we'll continue to work with 8 them on that. 9 But at one point, we said that we were 10 looking at doing some type of symp-- symposium 11 in the state as far as purchasing. 12 What is the -- 13 MR. STRUHS: The status of that? 14 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- that program? 15 MR. STRUHS: Yeah. We're working on that. 16 And do we have a date? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. June 12th. 18 MR. STRUHS: June 12th. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Conservation -- 20 MR. STRUHS: It's -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- easements. 22 MR. STRUHS: Right. We're -- we're -- 23 we're working on that. June 12th is the date 24 of -- of -- of next year, obviously. 25 But it would be I think probably the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 22 2 management -- public land management, with a 3 special focus on conservation easements, the 4 public/private partnership kind of relationship 5 right here in Florida. 6 And it will be a nationally important 7 conference on the subject that we'll be hosting 8 right here. 9 And look forward to your participation -- 10 SECRETARY HARRIS: I'm really grateful -- 11 MR. STRUHS: -- there. 12 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- for you moving 13 this -- for your moving forward with that. 14 It goes back to the age-old problem, 15 wherever the owners have it, they take very 16 good care of it. And if we have the 17 opportunity to purchase those development 18 rights, we accomplish two things: We preserve 19 the land well; and at the same time, let the 20 owners stay, and -- and manage it well, because 21 it's difficult on the State. 22 So -- and -- and just the -- the aspect of 23 underfunding and understaffing will always 24 continue to come up at those conservation 25 easements. Maybe we'll make some progress. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 23 2 symposium. 3 MR. STRUHS: Well, thank -- thank you. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Thank you, Governor. 6 I -- this is one -- been one of my issues 7 that I've harped on in seven years of the 8 Senate as to whether or not the State can 9 afford, or has the ability, through its many 10 agencies, to properly manage Florida's lands. 11 And there's a lot more to this than just 12 prescribed burning on forestland and -- and 13 we're being overrun by nonnative invasive 14 species, which is causing us untold problems 15 with our natural resources here in Florida. 16 And by doing agreements with the landowners 17 that we're buying the property from, it sounds 18 good, but we have to have an agreement that's 19 workable. And that means you're going to have 20 to do some dealing with those landowners 21 eventually if you're going to get them to take 22 it over. And there's probably going to be some 23 issues involved that some people aren't going 24 to want to talk about. 25 But we have to get down to the facts on ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 24 2 we already have that's mostly in trouble for 3 lack of funding from management and personnel. 4 I hope that we will use each of the 5 agencies' trained and qualified personnel for 6 whatever particular issue is in the management 7 process, whether it's forestry, whether it's 8 estuaries, wherever we have the expertise, that 9 we utilize those in a way that we maximize our 10 State funding dollars for management of State 11 lands. 12 Everybody likes to ride a different horse 13 and a different color, but, you know, we need 14 to put all this together and decide what's best 15 for everybody. 16 So -- 17 MR. STRUHS: I think we -- 18 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: -- that's my -- 19 that's my little say on that project. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have any comments, 21 Secretary Struhs? 22 MR. STRUHS: I -- well, I -- I do. I'd 23 like to take the opportunity, obviously, to 24 thank the Legislature. 25 Because even -- even with our anticipated ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 25 2 those reductions, this year, we will spend 3 somewhere near 20 million new dollars on land 4 management, specifically in that exotic and 5 invasive species. 6 So even with some spending reductions, 7 we're seeing a significant increase in our 8 attention to that area. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other comments? 10 Is there a motion? 11 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. 12 I think we did that already -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Did we already -- and then 14 we started talking? 15 Excuse me. Okay. 16 Not bad. 17 Item 4. 18 MR. STRUHS: Item 4 is a -- a purchase 19 agreement to acquire an inholding within the 20 Withlacoochee State Forest. 21 We recommend approval of that. 22 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. 23 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 25 Without objection, it's approved. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 26 2 MR. STRUHS: The next item, Item 5, this is 3 a parcel of land that has been long desired by 4 our Division of Recreation and Parks. 5 As some of you know, the previous 6 administration Cabinets acquired some 7 substantial natural coastal conservation areas, 8 with strong local support along the coast there 9 in -- in Pasco County. 10 Unfortunately, those -- those previous 11 acquisitions did not acquire adequate access to 12 that property. And unfortunately they failed 13 to protect probably the most environmentally 14 interesting and important feature of the 15 property, which is the natural salt springs 16 that occur there. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: So why -- have you stop 18 there. That's the -- answer that question, 19 I think everything'll be easy to go. 20 Why -- why would we plan the way you just 21 described? How could we plan for a State park, 22 and not have access, and not have the most 23 environmentally sensitive areas adjacent to the 24 park be considered in the acquisition? 25 MR. STRUHS: And -- and I would say from ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 27 2 the last three years, we haven't done that. 3 But this is parcels that have been 4 purchased I think five or six years ago. 5 So I don't want to blame -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any -- 7 MR. STRUHS: -- our predecessors, but I 8 will -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- anybody that -- 10 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Sir? 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I mean, could -- 12 MR. STRUHS: It -- it -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: It just -- it just defies 14 common sense. I mean, you -- you plan for a 15 State park, and you don't have access to it? 16 MR. STRUHS: Well, the good -- the good -- 17 the good news is this: The good news is, one 18 of the directions we've taken from the Cabinet 19 is to be more market oriented, and to be more 20 focused on opportunity purchases. 21 And thanks to our local managers on scene, 22 they became aware of the fact that this 23 critical parcel was becoming available because 24 of a foreclosure situation. And they seized 25 upon that opportunity, and pursued it. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 28 2 option agreement for your consideration that 3 would allow you to acquire this parcel for 4 nearly 10 percent below market value. 5 It would provide the access; it would 6 provide the protection you need for the 7 salt springs, which I think are the most 8 important environmental features on the 9 property, and certainly consistent with our 10 Florida Springs Initiative; and it has an 11 economic value, too, for the local community. 12 Our conservative estimates are, by getting 13 the easy access to this property off of 14 Route 19, we'll see visitation increase by at 15 least 10 percent. And that, of course, 16 generates additional economic activity in that 17 community. 18 Pasco County, of course, is a densely 19 populated county, and this is, in fact, the 20 only State park in Pasco County. 21 I believe Representative Fiorentino and 22 Representative Fasano were planning on being 23 here as well. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Representative Fiorentino 25 is here. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 29 2 TREASURER GALLAGHER: While she's coming 3 up. 4 Would you tell -- what is this little 5 square here? Is that some -- an out parcel 6 that somebody owns? 7 MR. STRUHS: Yes. 8 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Is that even -- 9 privately held, are we buying it, what -- 10 what's the deal with that? 11 MR. STRUHS: It's -- it's privately held. 12 TREASURER GALLAGHER: And we have complete 13 access to it? 14 MR. STRUHS: They have access now. 15 TREASURER GALLAGHER: What -- what's -- 16 what's -- is there something on there, is it 17 improved? 18 MR. STRUHS: I believe so. 19 MS. FIORENTINO: Thank you very much. 20 Appreciate you all inviting me up to speak. 21 The important part is that this is the very 22 first State park in Pasco County, in the entire 23 county. And though it is on the west side, and 24 it's in a very dense area, this is the only 25 part that will also be -- a majority of this is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 30 2 And a lot of our park, though it is -- most 3 of it isn't, it -- it's going to have a lot of 4 water access and everything. It's going to 5 have the only true access from 19, which will 6 be an important issue; and most importantly, a 7 buffer from U.S. 19. 8 And for those of you who drive on U.S. 19, 9 you know that we need a buffer, especially in 10 Pasco County from that. 11 With this -- we need to also as -- as we're 12 talking with our budget, we know the economy is 13 an important issue. And as the Secretary has 14 brought out, this will increase our economic 15 development also down in that area. 16 And I really ask for your support on this 17 issue, because it's very important to 18 Pasco County. 19 Thank you. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Heather. 21 Would you like to ask your new 22 Parks Director to come and talk about this? 23 MR. STRUHS: Director -- Director Spencer 24 has got -- 25 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: While -- while the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 31 2 was here, along with the Attorney General, when 3 we purchased that piece of property that you 4 were referring to. 5 I don't recall the circumstances. But 6 clearly if this is going to be a -- a vital 7 piece of park property to Pasco County, we have 8 to give them the access. 9 And while I'm very disturbed about the 10 amount of money we're paying for this, I don't 11 see any alternative. 12 So you may recall -- 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: We have -- we have an 14 alternative. 15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Sure. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a dirt road that we 17 can get to. 18 I mean -- I mean, I'd like to know what the 19 acc-- what the plans are for the park, how 20 much -- how accessible this is going to be to 21 the public. 22 Talk to us about the mobile home park 23 that's now surrounded, are we going to buy 24 that? Talk to us about valuations of property 25 if this is an endangered or environmentally ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 32 2 a buck plus a foot -- 3 This is hazing, Wendy. 4 MS. SPENCER: How about -- I'd rather, 5 baptism by water would be better. 6 Welcome. Thank you so much for considering 7 this wonderful piece of property. 8 I am your new enthusiastic Florida State 9 Parks Director, thrilled to be leading the 10 parks, and all 18.1 million visitors. 11 And tourism is really, really important 12 right now. We're all realizing how important 13 tourism is in -- in State parks to give you an 14 idea. State parks, 155 of them bring half a 15 billion dollars of economic impact to Florida, 16 and 14,000 jobs. 17 What we have here is a beautiful piece of 18 3300 acres of pristine coastal property with 19 salt springs. And, yes, it really is 20 salt springs coming up. 21 And we're whispering an entrance behind a 22 mall down a little two-lane road, we're 23 crossing over someone else's property on a dirt 24 road to get to the back entrance of this 25 beautiful property. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 33 2 beautiful gateway, an entrance on U.S. 19, with 3 55,000 cars driving by it a day. And now that 4 we're all in tune to economic impacts and 5 tourism, you realize how important that is. 6 It will turn this State park into -- a 7 whispered State park into a beautiful gateway 8 through tree-lined entrances, give us the 9 uplands we need, direct access to camping and 10 kyacking and canoeing and picnicking right in 11 the middle of malls, shopping centers, trailer 12 parks, gas stations, a Red Lobster. 13 And Pasco County will be prepared to send 14 you a giant thank you letter because you have 15 saved some beautiful property in the most dense 16 area in Pasco County. 17 And we hope that you'll enthusiastically 18 agree with us that this'll make the difference. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know you're -- you're new 20 on the job. But do any of your team members, 21 can they explain why we would purchase a State 22 park without having an entrance? 23 MS. SPENCER: Well, this was -- this was 24 County property that was given to us, and -- at 25 some point, was passed on to us. And -- so we ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 34 2 was really pristine acreage. 3 And so we, you know, at the time I guess 4 made the best decision we could, hoping that 5 maybe down the road something would come up. 6 And fortunately through this foreclosure 7 method, we're delighted that we have the 8 opportunity. 9 But it's not just the gateway, this 10 property. This is also an important buffer, 11 and an important uplands that we can use for 12 our campgrounds and canoe access, and kyacking 13 as well. 14 It's a wonderful opportunity that we want 15 to seize the moment, and to -- 16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: You didn't mention 17 the plans for the campground that this piece of 18 property will surround. 19 MS. SPENCER: Yes. 20 On the larger acquisition picture, this 21 will be the first piece of property we would 22 like. There is a campground that this property 23 we're talking about surrounds. 24 And we would like the opportunity to look 25 at it as a future acquisition. And we would ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 35 2 campground. 3 If you see it on the map there, Albert, you 4 could point it out. It's -- what will happen, 5 if you purchase this property, it will surround 6 that campground, which is -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is this campground already 8 improved? 9 MR. STRUHS: Yes. 10 MS. SPENCER: Yes. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is it improved to the 12 standards that you would expect for a State 13 park? 14 MS. SPENCER: I think we could do a better 15 job with it if we -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Run down, isn't it? 17 MS. SPENCER: It's -- yes. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: I mean, if you made an 19 investment -- 20 MS. SPENCER: Yes. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: How much money -- now that 22 we do own the property, and someone recognized 23 that we might need an entrance to the property, 24 has anybody also -- have we started to make 25 estimations of what the capital investment is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 36 2 accessible for people? 3 MS. SPENCER: You mean once we acquire the 4 property, what is the investment we'll make. 5 I don't know what we've set aside for -- 6 Albert -- the -- who -- Albert Gregory, who is 7 the best planner in State government, by the 8 way -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, let's put it this 10 way: Your -- your eloquent, very -- very 11 beautiful description of this park right now is 12 not an accurate description, because we 13 haven't -- we don't have the access, we don't 14 have the campground, we don't have the things 15 that would allow it to be something that people 16 in Pasco County and in the state could use, 17 right? 18 So what's the cost of that, over and above 19 the amount of money we're purchasing this 20 property for? 21 MR. GREGORY: Governor, I'd estimate that 22 our park development plans would probably cost 23 on the order of two to three million dollars to 24 implement. 25 This land management plan for the property ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 37 2 and Restoration Council this past week. 3 So we haven't submitted any legislative 4 budget requests for funding to develop it. 5 This will take its place in the -- in the order 6 of parks that we try to develop. This -- this 7 will be developed. It's -- as I say, it's a 8 two to three million dollar development 9 project. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: So you -- you would go 11 seek -- 12 MR. GREGORY: Yes, sir. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- funding for the -- 14 MR. GREGORY: Yes, sir. 15 TREASURER GALLAGHER: I make a motion on 5. 16 MR. STRUHS: Can -- can I -- I'm sorry -- 17 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second. 18 MR. STRUHS: -- before you vote. 19 I'm sorry. 20 I just wanted to point out that 21 Representative Fasano did arrive, and he wanted 22 to speak -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: And Senator -- 24 MR. STRUHS: -- and Senator Latvala as 25 well. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 38 2 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You might 4 have your -- you might have your vote, Senator. 5 You might not want to speak. 6 MR. LATVALA: I know. 7 I learned a long time ago that -- leave 8 well enough alone. We just appreciate your 9 consideration. This is the first State park 10 ever for Pasco County. And the -- the two 11 Representatives and I worked very hard on this. 12 It wasn't an ideal situation. We took a 13 lot of currently owned public land and spun it 14 together. 15 And this will help give us the access to 16 U.S. 19 and the entrance I think to get the 17 maximum utilization out of the project. 18 So we appreciate your consideration. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Senator. 20 Can you talk about the property that's 21 being foreclosed a little bit, what's its 22 development rights right now, and what is -- 23 what can be developed on it? 24 MR. STRUHS: Yes. It -- it's developed for 25 intense commercial development. It could -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 39 2 MR. STRUHS: No. I mean, the -- the -- 3 the -- most of the property is -- most of the 4 property is upland, which means it would be 5 developable for probably condominiums or 6 commercial development. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Representative Fasano would 8 like to speak as well. 9 MR. STRUHS: Okay. 10 MR. FASANO: Good morning. Thank you, 11 Governor. 12 I'd just like to reiterate what -- what has 13 been spoken already by 14 Representative Fiorentino and Senator Latvala. 15 Just for your information, we have many 16 volunteers that are -- are out there now using 17 up their own time to help clean up these areas. 18 Also the purchase of this 20-plus piece of 19 parcel will stop any development that will 20 encroach upon the environmentally sensitive 21 lands that are in that area. 22 I truly believe this is a great opportunity 23 to expand our -- our park. And as you know, 24 this is the only park that we have in 25 Pasco County, a State park in Pasco County. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 40 2 help the community as a whole. 3 So your positive vote on this would greatly 4 be appreciated. 5 Thank you, sir. 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: 7 Representative, wasn't -- wasn't it last year 8 here you -- looking at this, this is a very 9 fine project, and Wendy did a wonderful job -- 10 MR. FASANO: Yes, sir. 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have a 12 closing in front of the Supreme Court next 13 week. I want her to do it for me. 14 MS. SPENCER: I'll be there. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We have no 16 problem at all, I believe, funding this, 17 developing it, and also buying the campground 18 by just delaying the intangible tax a short 19 period of time. 20 MR. FASANO: And -- and because I need your 21 vote, I won't respond, sir. 22 Thank you. 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Since I need 24 your vote, so I won't expect you to respond. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 41 2 say one thing about the costs that 3 General Milligan referenced. 4 Usually commercial dirt will go anywhere 5 from 2 to 25 dollars a square foot. And so if 6 this is 120, even though it's -- it's a lot -- 7 a lot, I just wanted to say that that's 8 certainly in line lower than -- than what you 9 might find generally on the market. 10 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Governor, I'm curious. 11 How many State parks do we have in Florida? 12 MS. SPENCER: A hundred and fifty-five 13 beautiful State parks. 14 COMMISSIONER CRIST: I'm sure they're -- 15 they're all fabulous. 16 But -- but this is the only one in Pasco -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Force her to say how 18 beautiful they are. 19 MS. SPENCER: It's the only one in Pasco, 20 and it takes us to 62 counties out of 67 that 21 we have State parks in. 22 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Okay. Great. 23 Thank you. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other discussion? 25 There's a motion. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 42 2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 4 Without objection. 5 Because of you, Wendy -- 6 MS. SPENCER: Thank you. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it's approved. 8 And because of the legislative delegation 9 from Pasco County. 10 But you're promising you're not going to be 11 buying developing strategies to purchase land 12 for State parks, without having access to it 13 from here on out. 14 MR. STRUHS: We're -- we're just -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Some people joke about 16 government. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: It was given to them. 18 I mean, they didn't have -- they didn't buy it. 19 It was given to them. 20 So they -- it wasn't a choice. I guess, 21 they should have told the County, buy an 22 access, and then we'll take that free gift. 23 SECRETARY HARRIS: Secretary Struhs -- 24 MR. STRUHS: Yes. 25 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- what kind -- on the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 43 2 is the cost per square foot or the cost per 3 acre. Do you know what we're looking at, is it 4 going to be significantly more than -- than 5 this? 6 MR. STRUHS: Well, I mean, this will create 7 a nice comp, because we're getting it for 8 nearly 10 percent below market value. So it -- 9 it will only help. 10 I think we've also got a potential seller 11 that has an abiding interest in seeing the 12 property to continue in its current use as they 13 go into retirement. 14 So the combination of things I think put us 15 in a -- in a pretty advantageous position -- 16 SECRETARY HARRIS: But you are -- 17 MR. STRUHS: -- to be purchasing it. 18 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- contemplating buying 19 additional lands -- 20 MR. STRUHS: If the price is -- but only if 21 the price is right, and only if the Cabinet 22 approves. 23 I would also point out that -- again, to 24 pick up on the earlier theme, one of the things 25 we are eager to do is to build the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 44 2 And if you have a -- a going commercial 3 concern there, and you can get the benefits 4 that we're looking for that would service that 5 park facility, and -- and do it in a way that 6 keeps it owned, operated, or managed by a -- a 7 private business entity, we would prefer to do 8 that. 9 MS. SPENCER: We want y'all coming to the 10 opening of this beautiful gateway when we have 11 it ready. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 13 MS. SPENCER: Thank you. 14 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 15 Item 6 is a conveyance -- 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: We voted? 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: We did. 18 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Unanimous? 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Unanimous. 20 MR. STRUHS: Item 6 a conveyance of a piece 21 of property that had a berm built in the late 22 1920s or early 1930s. And over the course of 23 the last several decades, the area behind the 24 berm on Banana Lake has been gradually filled 25 in. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 45 2 location of this parcel would make it very 3 difficult for the State to manage this property 4 into the future, and that the applicants who 5 are seeking the transfer of this sovereign 6 submerged land into private ownership were not 7 in any way culpable for construction of the 8 berm or for the filling that has occurred over 9 the last several decades. 10 So with that, and -- and a finding of 11 public interest, we would request that the 12 thirteen-and-a-half acres be conveyed. 13 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 16 Without objection, it's approved. 17 MR. STRUHS: I should have -- I should have 18 pointed out that the -- the land will have some 19 restrictions on it. It will be used only to 20 manage the stormwater run-off from an adjacent 21 research and development park. 22 Item 7 is request for a nonexclusive 23 20-foot wide private access utility service 24 easement over State-owned land into some -- a 25 private inholding in the Blackwater River State ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 46 2 We recommend approval. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion. 4 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Moved. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 6 Without objection, it's approved. 7 MR. STRUHS: Item 8 is a -- is an 8 interesting item. 9 The City of Pahokee, as you know, is a 10 rural area of -- of critical economic concern. 11 And as part of their economic strategy, they 12 are taking advantage of the access to 13 Lake Okeechobee and some recreational amenities 14 there. 15 The Board of Trustees a number of years ago 16 issued an upland lease for State-owned land to 17 the City of Pahokee to develop this park. 18 They have since come back to us, and have 19 decided that they want to pursue the further 20 development of this park by entering into an 21 agreement with a private firm. 22 This will require them to, in turn, sublet 23 this Board of Trustees property. 24 We would recommend that you allow them to 25 do that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 47 2 economically from this transaction, on the 3 order of $32,500 per year, or 25 percent of the 4 annual net profits, whichever is greater. 5 And I would point out that this is really 6 no economic loss to the Board of Trustees, 7 because we would not ordinarily collect any 8 kind of lease payment from the City anyway. 9 So this is really part of a long-term 10 strategy for a community that needs it. 11 And I'd like to point out that in the 12 audience today, we have the Mayor and 13 Vice Mayor, Mayor Roy Singletary; Vice Mayor 14 Peter Moore; and two of the Commissioners, 15 Hugh Branch, and Henry Crawford. 16 And I think they may want to say -- 17 stand -- 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please come up. 19 And -- and friends came, too, it looks 20 like. 21 Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Thank you, Governor. 23 Secretary, I -- my understanding of the 24 property as it now sits is it's fairly run down 25 facility-wise, and the City's not able to put ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 48 2 reason for trying to go into a private 3 partnership to upgrade the area so that it's 4 more user friendly to the lake and to the area. 5 Is that -- is that the whole purpose of 6 doing this? 7 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir, it is. 8 And this is really -- I should advise you, 9 this is the first step of a -- of a two-part 10 process. This is a -- an allowance to allow 11 them to sublet the upland portion. 12 Expect to see this agenda item come before 13 you again as we look at the sovereign submerged 14 aspect of it, as they develop their plans to 15 expand and improve the marina on 16 Lake Okeechobee. So we're looking forward to 17 that. 18 And the Department is working very closely 19 and cooperatively with the City as they develop 20 those plans to make sure that when they bring 21 it back to you for your consideration, it's -- 22 to the marina side of it, that it meets all of 23 our permitting tests, and is a -- is a -- is a 24 sure fit. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mayor. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 49 2 Cabinet, we the City Commission, and the 3 members of the City of Pahokee, would like to 4 thank you for this opportunity to allow us to 5 appear before you. 6 We, the City -- citizen and the 7 Commissioner support this lease 100 percent. 8 Again, we thank you. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 10 Anybody else like to speak? 11 MR. MOORE: This is an exciting day for us 12 because we've -- we're badly in need of this 13 project for our economy. And so we -- we 14 appreciate what's happening here. 15 Thank you very much. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: And who have you brought 17 along with you? 18 MR. SINGLETARY: All the citizens of 19 Pahokee. 20 MR. MOORE: All stand up, would you, 21 please? 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Do we get a 23 t-shirt here, Governor? 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: We brought the -- they 25 brought this. Why can't you -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 50 2 trying to figure out, how long is it going to 3 be before we get invitations to the first 4 Pahokee bass fishing tournament on 5 Lake Okeechobee on this facility? 6 MR. MOORE: Well, I will extend a -- I'm a 7 licensed Coast Guard captain guide, besides 8 being a Vice Mayor. And I extend that 9 invitation for anyone. We'll organize for you 10 so you have a -- a State tournament, or we'll 11 also be glad to give you a free tour out on the 12 lake. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: You might even actually be 14 able to access the lake now from the marina -- 15 MR. MOORE: Yes. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Because the lake levels 17 have gone up a little bit, aren't they? 18 MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: That's right. 19 MR. MOORE: We appreciate that water coming 20 up. The good Lord took -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's something -- 22 MR. MOORE: -- care of us. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Secretary Struhs. 24 Any -- any other comments? 25 SECRETARY HARRIS: Just a quick question. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 51 2 this venture? 3 MR. STRUHS: No, actually not. It's a -- a 4 reputable company that has actually done other 5 work on similar projects -- 6 SECRETARY HARRIS: Okay. 7 MR. STRUHS: -- and they've got a -- a 8 pretty good track record. So it was not 9 specially formed for this purpose. 10 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on 8. 11 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 13 Without objection, it's approved. 14 Thank you all very much for being here. 15 MR. STRUHS: Item 9 is an application for 16 what's called an after the fact five-year 17 sovereignty submerged land lease, the 18 establishment of a public easement, and 19 authorization of a severance of -- 20 (Commissioner Crist exited the room.) 21 MR. STRUHS: -- 400,000 cubic yards of 22 material. 23 This is basically a -- a correction. The 24 Jacksonville Port Authority has been operating 25 this. As you know, under Florida law, port ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 52 2 required to pay any lease fees, so there's 3 really nothing in arrears here. 4 But in terms of our files and -- and public 5 recordkeeping, it's important to note that they 6 should have had a lease from the Board of 7 Trustees for the operations here. 8 We would recommend that the facts in this 9 case do not warrant any kind of fine. There 10 was no willfulness on the part of the 11 Jacksonville Port Authority, and, indeed, 12 should such fines be levied, they would have 13 been -- they would be immaterial. 14 So we would recommend that really as a 15 matter of recordkeeping, we go back and 16 retroactively issue the sovereign submerged -- 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on -- 18 MR. STRUHS: -- land lease. 19 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- 9. 20 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 22 Without objection, it's approved. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Like to move 10 to 24 November 27th meeting. Defer. 25 SECRETARY HARRIS: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 53 2 10, and a second. 3 Without objection, the item is deferred to 4 when is it, Commissioner? 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: The 27th of November. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: 27th of November. 7 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 11, we -- we have 8 at least one speaker. But before we invite 9 Mr. Parlato up here, I'd like to give just a 10 little background. 11 This is an item that has been before the 12 Cabinet before when you, in the spring of this 13 year, authorized us to go forward with the 14 development of rules that would clarify what 15 kind of sufficient upland interest you had to 16 have before you could acquire a sovereign 17 submerged land lease for the construction of a 18 dock or a pier. 19 And we have, through a very involved and -- 20 and concentrated process with technical experts 21 and lawyers and citizens across the 22 state of Florida, have come back with rules 23 that we think are -- are clear and -- and fair. 24 Essentially to -- to get to the -- the -- 25 the most critical aspect of this, what it would ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 54 2 considered a sufficient upland interest to 3 allow you to apply for the necessary leases to 4 build the dock or a pier. And this is a -- a 5 clarification of something that, frankly, had 6 been muddying the rules before. 7 I would, however, condition it, and would 8 condition it in an important way. We require 9 that that easement be at least 65 feet wide, or 10 cover the full riparian frontage of the parcel 11 in question, whichever is less. 12 This is clearly aimed at disallowing any 13 gaming of the system that would allow for a 14 proliferation of closely staked space, docks, 15 and piers. We think this is a -- a fair 16 approach, and one that we would recommend your 17 approval on. 18 This came out, in part, of a decision that 19 came out of the Fifth District Court of Appeals 20 back in 1998, and is consistent with what the 21 Court's findings were. 22 I'd be happy to answer any questions. 23 If none, I know that Mr. Parlato would like 24 to speak to this issue. And -- and to the 25 extent that you have limitations -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 55 2 MR. STRUHS: -- on your time this morning, 3 you can advise what kind of time allotment we 4 might have here. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: How long is Mr. -- how long 6 do you want to speak? 7 MR. PARLATO: Five minutes. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please come up. 9 Welcome. 10 MR. PARLATO: Thank you, Governor. 11 The other day, I got to speak in the 12 Supreme Court building, and it was a great 13 honor. And it's a great honor to meet you. 14 And, Secretary Harris, I'm a big fan. 15 As Mr. Struhs tells you, this -- this -- we 16 support the rule, Governor. We're here to 17 speak in support of the rule, but ask you not 18 to sign this rule into place today. 19 The reason this rule did come into place 20 was because of a Circuit Court case which we 21 were involved in with a group of homeowners. 22 It had always been the Agency's position that 23 an easement was not sufficient upland interest 24 to make an application to use submerged lands. 25 In 1991, we received a cease and desist ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 56 2 entered into a consent -- a consent agreement 3 with the then DER and DNR, which ordered us to 4 remove a portion of a then existing dock on our 5 property. It was placed there by the developer 6 without a permit. 7 When we removed that portion of the dock, 8 we were immediately sued by this homeowners 9 association named Secret Oaks. 10 We've been in court now since 1991. We 11 have spent $200,000 in legal fees in the 12 promulgation of this rule. 13 Secretary Struhs has spoken before you in 14 previous meetings where we've had transcripts 15 of the meetings, and he supports the position 16 at the time, the sufficient upland interest 17 could only be made by the upland landowner. 18 We have had to fight the same courts that 19 you do, Governor. We have Circuit Courts in 20 St. Johns County that -- that are intent on 21 legislating from their bench. They have taken 22 the Secretary's order, which he sent to us, 23 with pictures and diagrams of those portions of 24 the dock to be removed, and said that we were 25 not ordered to remove those docks. Absolutely ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 57 2 remove those docks. 3 We have been supported by the DEP 4 throughout this entire process. Three 5 administrative hearing officers have supported 6 the DEP's position, three DEP hearing officers 7 have been overturned by two District Courts, 8 the first court in the Fifth DCA, and the 9 second court in the First DCA. 10 We promulgated this rule. What this rule 11 does is say that what Secret Oaks is doing now 12 is wrong. It has never been the position of 13 the Agency to allow easement holders with -- 14 with drainage -- nonexclusive easement 15 holders -- this easement is a -- primarily an 16 easement to St. Johns County for drainage. 17 Secret Oaks has a pedestrian easement over that 18 same piece of property. 19 Never before has the State allowed this 20 type of easement holder to make an application, 21 and sustain an application over the objection 22 of both adjacent landowners for a permit. 23 The courts have come in and said that this 24 Agency -- three administrative hearing officers 25 are wrong. They have said that ten years in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 58 2 my legal fees were a waste of time, that we 3 were not ordered to remove docks. 4 What I'm asking is -- is simple, but is 5 very difficult. This rule is correct. 6 What could have happened in the past is if 7 you were a property owner, and you had 100 feet 8 of shoreline, based on the Court's 9 interpretation, you could then go out and 10 create as many easements along this 100 foot or 11 200 foot of property that you might have, and 12 each of those easements would then be allowed 13 to have everything that the original fee 14 property was entitled to have. That's what the 15 Court said. 16 But the courts are not legislators. But 17 the courts that we have to deal with in 18 Circuit -- in St. Johns County, and in the 19 Fifth District Court of Appeals in Daytona, are 20 legislative, they're not judicial in nature. 21 We ask you to pass this rule, but we ask 22 you to understand and be mindful of the fact 23 that the case that brought this rule to you to 24 sign today was our case. 25 These people are not entitled to the remedy ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 59 2 this rule be made retroactive, if that's at all 3 possible; that you direct the Agency to go back 4 and make sure that Secret Oaks and their permit 5 is at least in compliance with this rule. 6 We -- we have the statutory right to sue 7 the State of Florida to make this rule 8 three years ago. We -- we could have sued to 9 have this rule made in a timely fashion. 10 DEP said to us, please, don't sue us, let 11 us make this rule in our time frame so that -- 12 because we can't possibly adhere to a 13 reasonable time frame. 14 Meanwhile, the entire permitting process 15 for Secret Oaks has continued, and none of this 16 evidence, none of the notice of this rule has 17 been considered by the courts in any way, 18 shape, or form. 19 And so we ask you to do what it is you can, 20 or may wish to do, to bring Secret Oaks either 21 into compliance with this rule, or make this 22 rule retroactive. 23 I'll be happy to answer any questions. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Harris? 25 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 60 2 Cabinet and the -- the actual problem in terms 3 of the -- the liability that you could incur. 4 MR. PARLATO: This a 20-foot drainage 5 easement on the south side of our property. 6 Mrs. Patricia Ward is our adjacent landowner to 7 the south, and she's not a member of the 8 Association in any way. 9 This is 16 members, and their guests, 10 traipsing up and down our property to access a 11 potential community dock with no insurance; 12 they operate under the guise of a 13 not-for-profit corporation; they have testified 14 to the First and Fifth District Courts that 15 they are without assets, that they are 16 essentially bankrupt, they're in debt to their 17 attorneys. 18 There is no potential way that they can 19 indemnify our property. We have photographs, 20 we have videotapes, we have testimony before 21 the courts of small children jumping off the 22 docks, jumping off the pilings, into the 23 St. Johns River in three-and-a-half feet of 24 water head first. 25 And if I have to have -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 61 2 with a -- with an easement in place? 3 MR. PARLATO: We bought it with a 4 pedestrian drainage easement in place. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: And how -- and -- and -- 6 and so -- 7 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Wasn't the dock there 8 also? 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There is -- 10 MR. PARLATO: The dock was there, sir, 11 without a doubt. And we were aware at the time 12 that the dock was not permitted, and would need 13 to be removed. Even the Circuit Court said 14 that it would need to be removed. 15 When the Court, however, said to us, DEP 16 did not order you to remove that dock, that -- 17 that's when the -- the real problem of this 18 came. 19 It's -- it's got to do more with the 20 Court's interpretation of the DEP's consent 21 order than anything else. And I'm -- I'm kind 22 of fumbling for that now. 23 But we knew that it was an illegally 24 permitted dock, and we knew that it would have 25 to be removed. And we've tried to work out ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 62 2 the benefits of the water that we have. 3 What we're -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Bronson? 5 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I -- I guess to help 6 clarify my thought on this, when you said 7 "illegally permitted," you mean it was built 8 without any permit. It was -- 9 MR. PARLATO: It was built without any 10 permit, and it's our assertion that George Law, 11 the developer, induced some of the parties to 12 purchase their property by placing on the 13 property an unlawful structure. 14 George Law, subsequently having gone 15 bankrupt, the homeowners association has 16 attacked us, and so it's us that they've sought 17 out. 18 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Do -- does any of 19 the properties that this group of homeowners 20 have, do they have any shoreline riparian 21 rights to any of that property? 22 MR. PARLATO: Mr. Bronson, they don't have 23 any property. Not an inch, not a dollar, not a 24 basket, not a pot. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we -- is -- the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 63 2 perhaps could we have an answer to the question 3 of retroactivity of a rule? 4 That sounds like that may be -- sounds like 5 that may not be legal. I don't know. 6 Of course, I only play Governor for purpo-- 7 lawyer for purposes of my role as Governor, 8 you know. The made for TV. So -- 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We could do 10 anything that the -- that the Board wishes to 11 do, and we -- we defend it. But the 12 Legislature took out the Solicitor General, so 13 we may not be able to. 14 But -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you going to bring up 16 the tobacco money next? 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Come to 18 think of it, that's a good idea, Governor. 19 I -- I'm sure that they don't want to do 20 it, but the -- the -- we're talking about one 21 issue here that -- there might be a way -- 22 unless we have to enact this thing today for 23 everybody so that -- we can probably come up 24 with some way of doing what he wants to do 25 without affecting anything else. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 64 2 what you want to do. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: I just -- I'm just curious 4 if the option that you brought up is possible. 5 I mean, I -- it sounds like they can't do that. 6 Maybe there's another means of doing it. 7 But -- 8 MR. STRUHS: Right. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: When we start passing rules 10 that were retroactive, you know, think of all 11 the fun we could have. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It's just 13 not -- it's a problem -- it's a problem. Let's 14 just -- if you -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's a little more power 16 than I want my government to have, to be honest 17 with you. 18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: What I 19 wanted you to do if I could keep the 20 Solicitor General that way. So that's -- 21 that's the -- but the -- the -- I'm sure -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- protest outside for this 23 Solicitor General position. There's no other 24 signature. 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 65 2 people that care about it. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- 4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: You and I. 5 That's right. 6 MR. STRUHS: Governor, if -- if -- 7 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We get sued 8 all the time. 9 MR. STRUHS: If -- if -- if it's helpful, 10 obviously Mr. Parlato was quite correct that 11 over the last ten years, we've been quite 12 sympathetic to -- to his position. 13 But I -- I think the rule that we've 14 developed is -- is -- is a good and responsible 15 one that needs to be adopted. 16 Our attorney, Suzanne Brantley, who's been 17 involved in this case for a number of years, 18 can speak to the issue of retroactivity 19 which -- which we don't think is something that 20 we can do in this case, and also answer any 21 other questions you might have. 22 I would point out that this -- this -- this 23 case continues to be a -- an active piece of 24 litigation, and it is currently on appeal. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: To the Supreme Court? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 66 2 to pony up the money to take it to the 3 Supreme Court, we'd be happy to take it that 4 far. 5 We do have conflicting -- we do have 6 conflicting orders from the courts presently. 7 We have a -- an order from Richard Watson of 8 the Fifth D-- of the Seventh Judicial Circuit 9 which states that the Court has no authority 10 over the permitting process. 11 And yet we have the First DCA attempting to 12 issue a permit. 13 So we have -- if I can get Secretary, 14 you know, Struhs to pony up the money, I'd be 15 happy to take it that far. I've done all I 16 can. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary. 18 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor, isn't there -- 19 it seems like there's something we can do. 20 It's -- DEP has been sympathetic every step 21 along the way. They haven't sued the 22 Department of Environmental Protection in an 23 effort to work together. The dock was illegal. 24 If he restores the dock, then he's going to 25 be the only one liable for children jumping in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 67 2 It just doesn't seem right. And sometimes 3 the Cabinet seems like it's the -- the last 4 possible stop for citizens to come forward. 5 And even if he does go to the 6 Supreme Court, that's extra legal fees, 7 obviously. It just seems like -- I don't know 8 what the Attorney General was referencing. 9 But from the legal perspective, isn't there 10 some -- some other remedy, besides 11 retroactivity that we can address to -- to 12 assist in this case? 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I think 14 maybe if it's the consensus, Governor, for 15 everyone to want to do this, we'll work with 16 this gentleman and DEP about how -- how to do 17 that. But -- but you may -- but you may want 18 to sever it from the rule, and not have it -- 19 SECRETARY HARRIS: Is that why you're 20 asking not to have the rule passed today? 21 MR. PARLATO: Yes, ma'am. 22 So that you can take whatever actions you 23 might attach to it to support our position, 24 don't -- we have no problem with the rule 25 becoming final ultimately. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 68 2 should happen, that's what this legislation -- 3 all this legislation has done is said that we 4 think your rules -- the D-- the courts have 5 said, we think your rules are vague and 6 ambiguous. 7 And the State said, we don't think they're 8 vague and ambiguous, but if we need to make a 9 rule to clarify it, or we need to clarify our 10 rules, then we will do so. 11 Unfortunately the courts will not take 12 notice of the fact that we're in rulemaking to 13 clarify whatever error they think exists. And 14 one more brief point, and then I'll -- then 15 I'll be quiet and let Suzanne speak. 16 What we've -- what the Court has said is 17 now that sufficient interest is an easement. 18 An interest -- an easement can be a sufficient 19 easement. We have no problem with that 20 fundamentally at this point. There's nothing 21 we can say. 22 What we can say is this: Albeit 23 Secret Oaks has an easement, and albeit that is 24 sufficient, what they're doing is they have a 25 20-foot easement, and there's a 25-foot setback ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 69 2 other guy's property line. You can't set back 3 a 20-foot easement -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's -- 5 MR. PARLATO: -- 25 feet. And -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's -- let's see if we 7 can find some closure here. 8 If -- if -- I don't think the passing or 9 not passing the law is going to change your -- 10 your -- I mean, your -- the rule, excuse me, is 11 going to change anything, to be honest with 12 you. 13 If -- if there is the sense that we can 14 work to try to find some solution to this going 15 forward -- we can't -- 16 MR. PARLATO: I understand. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we can't -- you don't 18 want it -- you're a freedom loving person, I -- 19 I can tell. You don't want to have your 20 government create laws or rules that are 21 retroactive in nature. That is a power that 22 goes way beyond what you want. 23 Your freedoms would be imperiled by that 24 concept. 25 So -- but there is -- there are ways to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 70 2 solution to this. 3 I just keep thinking about Philip Howard 4 and the book that he's recently written. This 5 is a dock. You've spent 200,000 bucks, and the 6 other side's bankrupt. 7 It's gone on for ten years. That's just a 8 dock. I mean, what is wrong? 9 SECRETARY HARRIS: It's a dock that -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. 11 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- it's a dock that -- 12 that would cost an incredible liability if a 13 child jumped off -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's true. Because, 15 of course, there -- you know, there'd be suits 16 for that reason as well. So -- 17 MR. PARLATO: Governor -- 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- can we -- can we -- 19 please. Let's do -- I think we've gone on 20 enough here. And let's -- 21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just one 22 question for the society. 23 Secretary Harris has stated that you've 24 been kind enough not to sue DEP. 25 Has anything changed in the -- recently to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 71 2 MR. PARLATO: We've presented to 3 Ms. Brantley, for the purpose of making an 4 impact, a notice of claim. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who's Mr. Brantley? 6 MR. PARLATO: Ms. Brantley. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Ms. Brantley. 8 MR. STRUHS: Suzanne. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. 10 MR. PARLATO: We want the -- we want the 11 State to understand clearly what our legal 12 expenditures have been. 13 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah. I 14 just -- 15 MR. PARLATO: The -- 16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- wanted -- 17 to -- 18 MR. PARLATO: -- the -- the letter is 19 there, and -- and I believe that you've seen 20 it. It was not sent through our attorneys. 21 It's not an area that I wish to proceed. 22 I just would like to proceed in the 23 direction we are, with the support that we 24 have. And I would like you to be mindful of 25 what we've been through. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 72 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir. 3 SECRETARY HARRIS: One last question. 4 Secretary Struhs, is there a sense of 5 urgency on this? It just -- I mean, you know, 6 to pass this rule, if this rule's important, it 7 seems that perhaps we would at least -- we 8 would at least have the incentive to try to 9 address these concerns if we postpone passing 10 the rule so that we could address these 11 concerns at the same time, whereas with -- if 12 we go ahead and pass the rule today, then that 13 sends some urgency, we're going to pass it. 14 I'm not sure that we'll be able to work with 15 him -- 16 MR. STRUHS: Right. 17 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- in the same way. 18 MR. STRUHS: And I appreciate that -- that 19 sentiment. Of course, the sense of urgency 20 cuts both ways. 21 The value of getting the rule in place is 22 it will help prevent this from happening again. 23 And -- and -- 24 SECRETARY HARRIS: And the whole reason the 25 rule came about was because of this situation ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 73 2 And I guess I would really like to go as 3 far as we can in -- in assisting in any way we 4 can -- 5 MR. STRUHS: Right. And it -- 6 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- this cooperation 7 that's been existing for the past ten years. 8 MR. STRUHS: And -- and nobody quarrels 9 with that. 10 But, again, the other side of that same 11 coin is, you don't adopt the rule, and -- and 12 there may be other incidents like this. And -- 13 and I think the sooner you get it in place, 14 the -- the better -- better off we all are. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you see any 16 possibilities of working out something that -- 17 that requires us to defer the rule or -- 18 MS. BRANTLEY: My name is Suzanne Brantley 19 from the Office of General Counsel. And -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Suzanne. 21 MS. BRANTLEY: -- Governor, not going 22 forward with the rule really doesn't help 23 Mr. Parlato any. It'll help people who are not 24 similarly situated. 25 We have attempted to help him. I ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 74 2 sympathized with him for almost ten years now. 3 And every time we tried to interpret our 4 old rule that's in place now, we were shot down 5 by the courts. The courts said we didn't know 6 what we were doing, it was clearly erroneous, 7 et cetera, et cetera. 8 And right now, we have -- have an appeal in 9 the First District Court. And the 10 First District Court hasn't directed us to 11 issue the permit. 12 And that's pending a motion for 13 clarification on another issue. But if -- if 14 the Court directs us to issue that permit, the 15 Department really doesn't have a lot of 16 choices, unless we want to be in contempt, and 17 go to jail, which none of us do. So -- 18 But we have tried to help him. And we have 19 done everything to try to help him, and we 20 would continue to try to help him. 21 But we can't make the rule retroactive, 22 like you said. That's -- that -- 23 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I'm -- I'm having 24 a -- even with a pedestrian right or usage on a 25 drainage easement, which means you have to walk ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 75 2 of water, there is no inferred right that you 3 can build a dock -- or that you have a -- a 4 right to a -- in my opinion -- I mean, I -- I 5 must be missing something here. 6 The fact that you can get down to the 7 water's edge on a -- on a pedestrian right of a 8 drainage easement doesn't mean you have any 9 rights to a dock. 10 So I'm not -- I don't understand where the 11 Court -- of course, Governor, I might -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Your -- 13 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: -- want to add here, 14 I want -- I'm going to add here, it's the 15 vagueness of a rule that we're still stuck in a 16 canker problem in south Florida because we've 17 had a judge rule the same thing. 18 And if it takes us ten years, Lord help us 19 in the citrus industry in this state. There 20 may not be one. 21 So I can understand your plight, and I 22 certainly feel for you. 23 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I know you want to 24 move this thing along, but reading through the 25 record here, I get the impression that the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 76 2 into an agreement with the developer to provide 3 that very access to a dock and easement, and 4 that appropriate action would be taken by the 5 association to ensure insurance and maintenance 6 of the -- of the facility. 7 And so I -- I'm a little confused on that. 8 MS. BRANTLEY: Yes. The General is 9 correct. 10 There was an easement which was in place 11 when Mr. Parlato bought the property. And 12 there was also an agreement for the homeowners 13 to specifically have, and maintain a dock off 14 of their easement. It wasn't just a drainage 15 easement. It was an easement specifically to 16 build a dock in St. Johns. 17 And the record -- the Court records show 18 that Mr. Parlato actually paid the developer to 19 negotiate this agreement with the homeowners. 20 And one of the elements of that agreement 21 is that the homeowners will buy liability 22 insurance for that dock. 23 And if they don't, as he suspects they may 24 not, then I would think he would have an action 25 based on the agreement in Circuit Court, based ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 77 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, can we -- this -- 3 you know, as it relates to what it's in front 4 of us, the question is, should we defer the 5 rule or -- or not. 6 And the legal advice is that deferring the 7 rule won't have any impact on trying to lend a 8 hand to a beleaguered property owner. 9 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Right. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Or will -- exactly. So -- 11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I have one 12 more, Governor. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please, General. 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Thank you, 15 Governor. 16 Well -- let me just basically ask this. 17 It's a very simple question. 18 If we were to forget about the rule, and 19 just say, an easement -- an easement does not 20 constitute satisfactory evidence of title 21 interest for the purpose of making application 22 for a permit, what would happen? 23 Because didn't the Court rule because we 24 didn't say easement -- does not constitute, the 25 Court said, well, since you -- since you did ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 78 2 easement does. 3 We might want to say here that do we really 4 want to have an easement be enough to make 5 application for deferment. 6 MS. BRANTLEY: We did have that question 7 during the rulemaking, and we really don't want 8 easements. But we have determined that it is 9 the law of the State of Florida that an 10 easement can convey sufficient control and 11 sufficient riparian rights to build a dock. 12 And what we were trying to -- we didn't 13 want, like road easements or drainage easements 14 to have docks off of them, because you don't 15 have a responsible party -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is the law clear on that? 17 MS. BRANTLEY: Yes. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, nor -- 19 MS. BRANTLEY: An easement -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we surely don't want the 21 judiciary to be overreaching in its legislat-- 22 nor should the Executive. So -- 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, 24 Governor, if I might follow up. 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Easements are used -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 79 2 easement's used for a dock. 3 MR. STRUHS: Right. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: And the -- I guess 5 approval of a dock. 6 MR. STRUHS: Right. 7 TREASURER GALLAGHER: But easements are 8 used for lots of other public purposes. And 9 we've got to be careful what we do here, 10 because we're liable to step -- mixing one 11 thing, step and mess up a whole bunch of other 12 things. 13 And I don't -- have y'all measured that 14 in -- in this rule to see to it that we're not 15 doing that? 16 MR. STRUHS: Yes, we have. And -- and 17 that's one of the reasons why 18 Mr. Richard Brightman is here from the 19 Florida Electric Power Coordinating Group to 20 speak in favor of the rule, because, in fact, 21 it addresses that -- that precise concern. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Well, 23 Governor, he's only -- he's only talking about 24 a few feet. You're talking probably about 25 laying -- laying cable, right? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 80 2 something? 3 MR. BRIGHTMAN: The -- the argument applies 4 to -- 5 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Transmission 6 line? 7 MR. BRIGHTMAN: -- to all manner -- 8 Excuse me. I am Richard Brightman from 9 Hopping, Green & Sams, here on behalf of the 10 Florida Electric Power Coordinating Group. 11 The argument applies to all manner of 12 public facilities as -- as -- as was mentioned. 13 I'm here on behalf of the electric utilities. 14 And -- and what we're trying to avoid is 15 the circumstance where we can't use an easement 16 as the sufficient upland interest for a power 17 cable, perhaps a pipeline to cross sovereign 18 lands. 19 That -- that would leave us in the 20 unenviable situation of having perhaps to 21 condemn a fee interest in somebody's backyard, 22 when under normal circumstances, we would do it 23 with just an easement, and they would still 24 have the use of their property. 25 I -- I'm here also with the -- with the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 81 2 circumstance, which is not the circumstance to 3 which we are in. 4 But the staff went through this in -- in 5 rigorous detail as this rule was being 6 developed, and at one point in time had 7 developed a very long laundry list of -- of 8 property interests which could, under certain 9 circumstances, constitute sufficient upland 10 interest. 11 And there are others, other than easements. 12 My client sometimes used licenses, even tariffs 13 on occasion, to have that sufficient upland 14 interest for their utility facilities. 15 And I asked the staff to take that into 16 account in the rulemaking, which they did, and 17 developed this long laundry list. 18 They ultimately rejected that on the theory 19 that no matter how long you make the list, 20 you're going to leave something out in some 21 circumstance, which you can't foresee right 22 now. 23 And instead included in the -- in the 24 definition and the rule, sort of some catchall 25 language, which says, other interests in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 82 2 under certain circumstances, so long as it's 3 clear that that interest intends to convey the 4 riparian rights necessary to accomplish the 5 facility that you're trying to build. 6 And -- and so that's -- that's my interest 7 in this, is to have that ability through that 8 language that's currently in the definition 9 remain, and our ability to continue to build 10 our facilities with an easement, or even 11 others, upland interests. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay. 13 Well then, other than your clients, who else do 14 you think would need this type of language? 15 We can frame this rule just to -- and I 16 agree with you. I mean, you -- you need these 17 easements. 18 MR. BRIGHTMAN: Right. 19 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: There's no 20 two ways about that. 21 MR. BRIGHTMAN: Yeah. 22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Can we frame 23 the rule to where it just -- 24 MR. BRIGHTMAN: I -- 25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: We just -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 83 2 represent everybody, but what comes to mind is 3 other linear facilities: Pipelines, 4 water lines, sewer lines, maybe even roads. 5 Linear type facilities would be appropriate for 6 this -- for this kind of upland interest. 7 MR. STRUHS: On -- on -- on that -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't see how your 9 suggestion helps -- helps this gentleman 10 though, because they still have the retroactive 11 issue. So -- 12 MR. STRUHS: And -- and on -- and on the -- 13 on the point on linear facilities. I -- I can 14 state for the record that our Department of 15 Transportation supports this rule as well. 16 MR. PARLATO: Governor, one second. And 17 I'll leave, I promise. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: One second, you -- 19 MR. PARLATO: Please. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- promise to leave? 21 MR. PARLATO: I promise -- this -- this man 22 is right, and I agree with his position. 23 What we're also saying to you, in this 24 case, an easement is there. But this is too 25 small an easement for the purpose intended. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 84 2 yourself a 100-foot easement, if that's what it 3 takes. 4 That's all, Governor. 5 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor, one last 6 thing. 7 I think we should pass the rule, and this 8 is important. And certainly we can't do the 9 retroactivity. 10 But if Mr. Parlato could continue to work 11 with the Attorney General. If there are issues 12 of agreements that are, you know, agreed -- 13 they agreed to have the easement, but if 14 they're now bankrupt -- but all those kind of 15 things, I think the Attorney -- 16 Attorney General could really give some 17 assistance when there's already been so much 18 money invested over obviously an issue of -- of 19 great concern of liability. 20 So, I mean -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I think that's the 22 sense of the Cabinet. So if -- we can move 23 forward in that regard. 24 MR. PARLATO: Thank you, everybody. 25 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 85 2 We've already -- 3 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 4 SECRETARY HARRIS: Move it. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: We've already moved it. 6 Is there a motion and a second to accept 7 the rule? 8 Without objection, it's approved. 9 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: Who -- who moved 10 and seconded? 11 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Move to withdraw 12 Item 12. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: There was a move -- motion 14 and second. 15 MR. STRUHS: And the last item is being 16 withdrawn. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Just did. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion to withdraw, and a 19 second. The item is withdrawn. 20 Thank you, David. 21 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 22 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal 23 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.) 24 * * * 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 86 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 1 through 85 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 9TH day of NOVEMBER, 2001. 18 19 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
88 APPEARANCES:
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 89
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 90 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Florida Land and Water 3 Adjudicatory Commission. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on the 5 minutes. 6 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 8 Without objection, it's approved. 9 Item 2. 10 MS. TINKER: Item 2, staff recommendation 11 is to enter a second amended draft final order 12 approving the petitioner's notice of proposed 13 nonsubstantial change. 14 And the second amendment is being passed 15 out to you now. It's a modification on page 5. 16 You'll see the handwritten language that 17 modifies the order. 18 While you're getting that, I'd like for 19 Greg Munson, the staff attorney on this 20 proceeding, to come up and frame the legal 21 issue here, and the staff recommendation. 22 And then we have several speakers. 23 MR. MUNSON: Good morning. 24 For the Commission's purposes today, the 25 story begins in 1996. At that time, the County ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 91 2 agreed to the Development Order that is at 3 issue today. 4 Under the terms of that Development Order, 5 the petitioners had to substantially proceed 6 with their development, unless they could show 7 excusable delay and no adverse impacts from 8 that delay. 9 When the petitioners came to the County and 10 sought that extension claiming excusable delay, 11 the County denied their extension, they 12 appealed to this Commission, and it was 13 referred to an Administrative Law Judge. 14 The Administrative Law Judge made his 15 findings of fact, and conclusions of law, and 16 finally concluded that the extension should 17 have been granted because he found that there 18 was excusable delay. 19 At this point, it's probably worthwhile to 20 briefly mention, although I'm sure the 21 Commission is aware of it, the standard of 22 review here, which remains fairly high. 23 When the Commission reviews the 24 Administrative Law Judge's findings of fact, 25 those findings of fact can only be rejected if ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 92 2 substantial evidence. 3 Likewise -- well, not likewise, the 4 conclusions of law also have a standard 5 associated with them. Those can only be 6 rejected if it's within the Commission's 7 substantive jurisdiction, and the Commission's 8 conclusion is equally -- is equal or more 9 reasonable than that of the Administrative Law 10 Judge. 11 Briefly, the Administrative Law Judge in 12 his recommended order cited a number of reasons 13 for finding inexcusable delay. The primary one 14 of which this Commission has focused 15 appropriately -- or at least in the draft 16 order, is the illness of the primary developer 17 amongst the petitioners. He was the one with 18 the expertise and the resources. His name is 19 Mr. Cox. 20 There were a number of other economic 21 factors that made it difficult to sell the land 22 that's cited by the ALJ. That has not been the 23 focus of the draft final order, as it seemed 24 like the most direct way to -- for the 25 Commission to decide this case would be to base ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 93 2 And I think the -- an important point here 3 is that the ALJ's finding of fact that the 4 illness created an excusable delay is supported 5 by competent and substantial evidence. So it 6 would be difficult for this Commission to 7 directly overturn that finding of fact. 8 His conclusion that the illness created 9 excusable delay, as reflected in the draft 10 final order, I believe is the correct one. 11 That's the essence of this final order. So 12 essentially, although there are many issues 13 here, this issue is essentially one of deciding 14 the terms in the Development Order, and not the 15 wisdom of the development itself. 16 And that kind of frames the issues. 17 I think at this point the -- both sides, 18 the petitioners and the County, have a 19 presentation they would like to make -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: And we have people -- 21 MR. MUNSON: -- giving their points of 22 view. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- from Lake County as well 24 that would like to speak, as I understand it. 25 MR. MUNSON: Yes, sir. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 94 2 MS. TINKER: Thanks, Greg. 3 The first three speakers are the 4 petitioners. And they are going to limit their 5 time to 2 minutes each. 6 Tim Smith is the attorney for the 7 petitioners; followed by Steve Price, one of 8 the property owners; and -- 9 (Commissioner Bronson exited the room.) 10 MS. TINKER: -- Phil Tatich, a trustee of 11 the property owner. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. 13 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Governor, members 14 of the Cabinet. I'm Tim Smith of the law firm 15 of Akerman Senterfitt. 16 Excuse me. 17 Is that better? 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 19 MR. SMITH: I'm Tim Smith of the law firm 20 of Akerman Senterfitt, on behalf of the 21 applicants. 22 I did not commit to 2 minutes. On the 23 other hand, my clients, who are here, are not 24 going to be speaking. So I'll be speaking a 25 little bit longer. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 95 2 make, however, Mr. Munson's already made. This 3 case was tried on one central issue. There are 4 a number of subsidiary issues. 5 But the only one that really counts is the 6 question of what excusable delay meant, and 7 whether the requested extension for less than 8 five years should be granted based on excusable 9 delay with no adverse impacts resulting from 10 the delay. 11 As Mr. Munson pointed out, the standard is 12 of -- of review for you, or the standard of -- 13 of how you would deal with a recommended order, 14 is very high, and is -- as long as there's 15 competent, substantial evidence to support the 16 findings, as there is in this case, you don't 17 have any flexibility in overturning or 18 modifying findings of fact. 19 As far as the conclusions of law go, it -- 20 again, if they're supported by the findings of 21 fact, and they are reasonable, then, again, you 22 have very little discretion to overturn them. 23 We have read the proposed -- or draft 24 order, and we are essentially in concurrence 25 with it. There have been a few little changes ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 96 2 morning that we can live with. We don't see 3 them as -- as really major. 4 Let me just go and focus on one point. The 5 heart of excusable delay here was the impaired 6 health of Mr. Cox. And I wanted to explain 7 that a little bit further than has been 8 explained up to this point. 9 Mr. Cox was the leader. He was the -- 10 the person who had the idea behind this 11 development in the first place. He was the one 12 who had the 30 years or more of working with 13 large developments, he had been the mortgage 14 loan correspondent for three large insurance 15 company lenders for the entire state of 16 Florida. 17 He was the one that had not only the 18 financial resources himself, but the ability -- 19 the credibility with other lenders to put 20 together the -- 21 (Commissioner Bronson entered the room.) 22 MR. SMITH: -- incredibly expensive package 23 that would be required to put in all the -- 24 (Governor Bush exited the room.) 25 MR. SMITH: -- infrastructure here before ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 97 2 And without him, once they lost him, it was 3 not possible for the other owners to do this, 4 to carry on with the development. 5 The other reasons that are mentioned in the 6 recommended order, the other reasons that my 7 clients put forth for the excusable delay, are 8 important. But they wouldn't have been 9 important if it hadn't been for Mr. Cox's 10 illness. 11 If Mr. Cox had not been ill and had his 12 short-term memory so impaired that he could no 13 longer carry on business, they would not have 14 had to worry about marketing the property, and 15 marketing conditions, lack of a marketing 16 window on a major highway. That would not have 17 been relevant. Probably wouldn't even have 18 arisen. They simply would have gone forward, 19 and they would have been able to develop. 20 If Mr. Cox's illness hadn't occurred 21 exactly when it had, right at the time that the 22 appeal by DCA ended, and the parties were able 23 to reach agreement on the Development Order, 24 and it finally took effect at the end of '95, 25 again, it wouldn't have mattered, because if he ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 98 2 would have gotten rolling, financial package 3 would have been in place, and it would have 4 been possible to -- to be -- to have 5 substantially proceeded within the meaning of 6 the Development Order. 7 But that's not what happened. And because 8 he was the leader, and because his health was 9 so badly impaired, and because the -- the other 10 owners are essentially citrus farmers -- or 11 former citrus farmers, badly hurt by this -- 12 the freezes in the 1980s, his -- Mr. Cox's 13 health impairment became extremely important. 14 That's the linchpin of all of this. 15 Everything depends on his health impairment 16 occurring when it did, and being in the form 17 that it was. 18 I don't think that you want me to go 19 through all the details, especially after 20 Mr. Munson's gone through this. 21 I just -- I just wanted to say -- 22 (Governor Bush entered the room.) 23 MR. SMITH: -- in closing that we support 24 the recommended order fully; competent, 25 substantial evidence supports all the findings ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 99 2 is at the heart of all of the conclusions of 3 law. 4 The -- the judge took a very reasonable 5 position in interpreting it, there are no 6 statutory definitions for excusable delay, 7 there's nothing in the rules defining it. 8 So when you don't have something that gives 9 it a special meaning, you look at -- the first 10 principle of statutory construction is to look 11 to the plain meaning of the terms. And that's 12 what they did, excusable delay. 13 Excusable is the only one that's really at 14 issue here. Everybody knows what delay means. 15 And it's based on the word excuse. 16 And when you look in the dictionary 17 definitions, and read them thoroughly, look at 18 the synonymy paragraphs for the synop-- 19 synonyms and so forth, it's very clear that 20 there's direct support in the record for the 21 judge's interpretation. 22 And if you look at Mr. Cox's badly 23 deteriorated health, you can see that 24 extenuating circumstances did exist, in this 25 case sufficient to excuse the delay. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 100 2 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I just have 4 one question here in order for me to clarify 5 this, and you've done quite a good job of doing 6 that. 7 If -- if FLAWAC is to do what -- what you 8 want us to, and that is to uphold the 9 Administrative Law Judge's findings of law, do 10 you have any problem with the additional 11 language that my staff added this morning? 12 And if you haven't seen it, they'll be glad 13 to discuss it with you, then you can come back 14 up and let us know. 15 MR. SMITH: The language that I have seen 16 now reads in the middle of page 5: The 17 Commission does not decide today whether the 18 reasons cited for excusable delay by the ALJ, 19 besides the illness of Mr. Cox, would alone 20 constitute excusable delay, as those reasons 21 appear to be based solely on business decisions 22 within the control of the petitioner. 23 Is that the language you're referring to? 24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yes. 25 We're -- we're concerned about the fact ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 101 2 take it -- a bad precedent for us. You have 3 stated very well that health is the key, and 4 the others -- all -- all of the business 5 decisions basically stemmed off of that. 6 If we were to allow what the Administrative 7 Law Judge has right now, we're going to have a 8 lot of problems in the future I think on -- on 9 a precedential basis. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: In what -- in what way, 11 General? Just -- 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Just -- 13 I think the gentleman would say, well, I 14 couldn't get financing, I -- I made a bad 15 business decision -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: I got sick and -- 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I got 18 sick, the dog ate my homework, ate my plans 19 and -- 20 MR. SMITH: We could live with that 21 language, General. 22 TREASURER GALLAGHER: There's two other 23 changes on that page, too, where you put less 24 instead of more on line 3. And then three, 25 four lines down, you have about excusing delays ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 102 2 MR. SMITH: Right. 3 Well, I -- I -- I think this is an example 4 where less is more. I actually had suggested 5 less here, because I think it's what was 6 actually meant. And -- and so we're happy with 7 less. 8 The serious illness -- the illness was very 9 serious, so I have no problem with that either. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're happy with the other 11 changes? 12 MR. SMITH: We're fine. Yes. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 14 Any -- I think there -- there's other 15 speakers. Could -- 16 MR. SMITH: Well, Ms. Bonifay, my -- my 17 partner is here, and two client representatives 18 are here to answer your questions if you have 19 any. 20 But if there are no questions, then -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 22 MR. SMITH: -- we're done. 23 Thank you very much. 24 MS. TINKER: The next two speakers are 25 representing Lake County, Commissioner ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 103 2 County Attorney. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. 4 MR. POOL: Good morning, Honorable Governor 5 and Cabinet members, we appreciate the 6 opportunity. 7 I'm Bob Pool, Vice-Chair of the Lake County 8 Commission; and this is Melanie Marsh, our 9 County Attorney. 10 We reviewed this process -- or this project 11 probably a year ago, some September 26th of the 12 year 2000. And there were agreements that were 13 brought forth to the County before I was on the 14 Commission. This, in fact, came to the 15 Commission many years ago. 16 And there were -- there was extensions that 17 were already granted at one point, and, 18 in fact, no real effort that we could see had 19 been made to develop this property. Many 20 opportunities existed, no roads, no 21 infrastructure, no capital improvements. 22 And, therefore, we felt that the developer 23 had many opportunities to go forward, and 24 didn't, for whatever reason, and -- and health 25 is a serious one, I would imagine. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 104 2 believe that the agreement stated clearly that 3 either he would perform certain tasks, and do 4 certain things to get these densities, or he 5 would not. And those things did not happen. 6 So locally we felt like the extension was 7 not in order. And that was a decision, 5/0 by 8 the Board of County Commissioners. And we 9 would appreciate your consideration of the fact 10 that we thought this was a local issue, dealing 11 with local citizens, and, in fact, the entire 12 area has not truly developed in a high density 13 nature. It's been a very rural area, and 14 developed very -- as a rural nature. 15 The actual -- how can I say, the -- the 16 character of the neighborhood, or the character 17 of the area has been rural, and we wanted to 18 maintain some rural aesthetics, and be a very 19 beautiful piece of property if it were done in 20 maybe two 5-acre tracts, or developed per the 21 County's new comp plan that now would allow 22 development, but at much lower densities. 23 And that's the key here that the County's 24 asking for. The local decisions were made 25 based on what we thought were good information ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 105 2 And we appreciate your consideration as we 3 go forward, for that reason, to deny the 4 extension. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: So you're not in favor of 6 the -- 7 MR. POOL: No, we're not in favor of the 8 extension. And we said so September 26th, the 9 year 2000. That's a year ago -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Based on this -- this 11 agreement, you're not a party to the support of 12 the -- the newly worded agreement. 13 MR. POOL: Well, what this says -- and the 14 agreement would give another four years and 15 364 days, almost five years of an extension. 16 And we felt like the adequate time had been 17 allowed to do any development or infrastructure 18 improvements. 19 That's -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: You don't support this. 21 MR. POOL: No. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 23 MR. POOL: Yeah. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I -- I have a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 106 2 Thank you, Governor. 3 Now, I had heard some information that was 4 given to me, and I don't know how accurate it 5 was, so I'm going to ask you directly, that 6 indicated that the Board of County 7 Commissioners would -- would revert back to 8 agricultural status this piece of property. 9 Is that correct? 10 Instead of having it for development, you 11 would put it back for agricultural; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. POOL: Our future land use map would 14 allow development, but I believe that 15 development would allow some 300 units on the 16 1400 acres. 17 Now, I'm not sure about the numbers. It 18 may be two ninety-three. But somewhere around 19 300 -- 300 units allowed on the 1400 acres, 20 which is about one unit per 5 acres. 21 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Okay. I -- 22 MR. POOL: Is that correct? 23 MS. MARSH: (Nodding of head.) 24 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: -- I also had heard 25 that maybe after it was reduced back to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 107 2 me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that one of the 3 areas that was hit bad during the freezes in 4 the '70s, and froze out their orange groves 5 that were there, and, therefore, replanting it 6 in citrus is almost futile right now in that 7 part of the state to any degree, especially at 8 that -- at that location. 9 And -- but then that the County was 10 thinking about using that as a county park, or 11 offering to buy it as a county park once it was 12 reduced back to agricultural -- 13 MR. POOL: Well, it's -- it -- 14 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: -- lower valuation? 15 MR. POOL: -- it was never our intent to 16 have you rezone or lower the value of the 17 property. 18 The property is worth what it's worth. And 19 we believe it's worth probably what the 20 gentleman's asking for it today. I'm not 21 saying it's -- denying the value of the 22 property. 23 But I am saying that we wanted a two-week 24 deferral, we couldn't get it from the Board of 25 Commissioners for -- to explore the opportunity ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 108 2 agencies, St. Johns, Trust for Public Lands, 3 some P-2000 or Preservation 2000 money. We 4 thought that might be a great opportunity for a 5 park, to purchase it at the given price. 6 We weren't trying to devalue or de-- or 7 rezone the property. We felt like the property 8 is worth what it's worth. And I said so 9 clearly, that it's probably worth what he's 10 asking. We're not denying what the value of 11 the property is. 12 We just couldn't get the partners together 13 quick enough, nor could I get a consensus on 14 the Board of County Commissioners for that 15 deferral. I tried, I failed. 16 But -- so we're here for -- before you 17 today saying that we would ask that you respect 18 the decision locally -- 19 (Commissioner Crist exited the room.) 20 MR. POOL: -- and not extend this 21 Development Order. 22 SECRETARY HARRIS: To your knowledge, you 23 said that your recent -- more recently on 24 the -- on the County Commission. 25 Have you denied other extensions -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 109 2 extensions, but those were because projects had 3 been in -- in progress, or 200 units or 4 300 units, or there was a bankruptcy. 5 We did -- did extend, because of 6 developments underway. This development has 7 not had a road or infrastructure improvements 8 at all. No capital improvements. 9 Nothing is done to the property, other than 10 it's been fenced and there's now cattle on it. 11 And -- 12 SECRETARY HARRIS: Usually I guess if 13 you're going to try to sell it to a larger 14 development firm, someone along the lines of 15 Arvida, you know, quality development, which 16 this area would certainly justify, you really 17 can't put in that kind of infrastructure, 18 because that'll actually devalue it for the 19 next buyer, rather than increase the value. 20 So I suppose if, indeed, they're trying to 21 market it to others, that, you know, that would 22 be essential not to try to foretell, but other 23 future development along -- 24 MR. POOL: And I would understand that. 25 The fact of the matter is that when -- when ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 110 2 last ten years, other than the cattle -- and 3 we're -- we're happy it's there. 4 And, again, you're correct about 5 agriculture. Lake County probably lost some 6 100,000 acres due to the freezes -- 7 back-to-back freezes. And now we only have 8 little acreage left of agriculture. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, did you -- 10 does -- did the County Commission vote not to 11 purchase this property -- make an effort to 12 purchase it -- 13 MR. POOL: That -- that is what took place. 14 I asked for a special meeting to allow a -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: You -- 16 MR. POOL: -- two-week delay so they might 17 explore opportunities. The balance of the 18 Commission that went 3 to 2 in a -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Doesn't that kind of 20 contradict the local control thing that you're 21 bringing up? 22 MR. POOL: Well -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Because the only other way 24 is that somehow I've got a sneaking suspicion 25 that you expect us to be not focusing on what ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 111 2 it, a -- we have a standard of review that we 3 must use for an Administrative Law Judge -- 4 Judge ruling, whether this is -- you know, 5 if -- if you -- I'd -- I'd be more than happy 6 to -- to have you join forces with -- 7 (Commissioner Crist entered the room.) 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- with me and others to 9 reform our growth management system so that we 10 can get out of this kind of focus, and -- 11 and -- and -- and move to a more meaningful 12 kind of growth management. 13 But in front of us today is whether or not 14 we are going to overturn an Administrative Law 15 Judge ruling. That's the process. 16 At some time in the past, a DRI was -- was 17 granted, it was approved by the 18 County Commission, and we have in front of us a 19 specific consideration here. It doesn't really 20 relate to local control or State control. 21 But you -- if -- if you really meant local 22 control, you'd probably be trying to work out 23 purchasing the land at the local level as well, 24 wouldn't you? 25 MR. POOL: I had intended and thought we ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 112 2 parties and very -- citizens who were very 3 interested. 4 And, in fact, you know the dollars were 5 very expensive. It's not a cheap piece of 6 property at $8800 an acre, roughly it came to 7 somewhere around twelve-and-a-half 8 million dollars. 9 That doesn't just grow on trees, and we 10 tried to figure out a way to figure out 11 partners, and we wanted to explore those 12 opportunities. 13 And that's why I asked for a two-week 14 deferral so we might do just that. I wasn't 15 successful. The vote, as I said, went 3 to 2 16 to actually, I guess, have you all make that 17 decision, asking you, the Cabinet and Governor, 18 to honor the decision locally made, not to 19 grant the extension. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a -- if -- are you 21 willing to sit down with the developer to talk 22 about lower densities and modifications to -- 23 to comply with your new comprehensive plan? 24 MR. POOL: Well, of course, our 25 comprehensive plan, as I said, allows ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 113 2 300 units, approximately; and 2,400, of which 3 they now would have. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's why I asked the 5 question. 6 MR. POOL: There's a great difference. 7 And -- and if you're asking me, would I be 8 willing to -- to help negotiate some number 9 lower than that, I think I would. 10 But the key is that -- that the decision 11 now I guess falls upon the Governor and Cabinet 12 to make a decision, or bring it back to us to 13 help render some compromise or negotiation. 14 And I do think there's opportunity for 15 that. But today we're here before you saying 16 not to grant the extension. 17 That's what we're asking today. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. 19 MR. POOL: And you obviously have a -- 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Not based on the -- I mean, 21 is there any -- 22 MR. POOL: Well, I think that the -- 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- legal reason that you -- 24 MR. POOL: I -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- think we cannot do this ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 114 2 MR. POOL: I -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- on what you know about 4 what our responsibilities are. We're not a 5 County Commission, we're not a zoning board -- 6 MR. POOL: Right. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we're not here to -- to 8 focus on densities, whether they're high or 9 low -- 10 MR. POOL: We understand. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- or -- 12 MR. POOL: Yeah. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: So what is the reasons, 14 other than the fact that it inconvenient -- 15 you know, creates a -- a negotiating position 16 maybe down the road that makes it harder for 17 you to accomplish your objectives when it goes 18 back to you. 19 What -- what legal reason, what 20 justification -- if you were a Governor or a 21 member of the Cabinet, what would you suggest 22 we do? 23 How would we view this any differently than 24 what was presented to us? 25 MR. POOL: Well, I'm not sure -- and I'm ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 115 2 think the judge rendered a decision, and that's 3 that. And we'll -- just as you'll render a 4 decision, and we will live with that, and 5 respect that decision. 6 What I am saying is that had in good faith 7 he demonstrated some ability to go forward, 8 that might have made a difference. 9 We believe he did not demonstrate that 10 ability, nor the desire to go forward, only to 11 sell that property, not really develop it 12 himself. 13 And I understand that he's not a developer, 14 he's a grower. And I respect that. He had 15 that opportunity. It didn't -- it didn't 16 materialize. 17 And so what we're saying is, locally we 18 felt that he should now abide by the local 19 comp plan that is in -- in -- in place, not 20 what he wanted to do. We think today, since he 21 didn't develop it, and didn't sell it, and it 22 didn't materialize, that it's something that 23 maybe isn't designed for that area. 24 That's our position, and that's what we 25 took as a position. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 116 2 know if she had any comments or questions as an 3 attorney. Anything I've missed. 4 MS. MARSH: No. I don't have any further 5 comments, other than we do have staff here if 6 you have any other questions. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 8 Any other questions? 9 MR. POOL: I do bel-- I do believe, 10 Governor and Cabinet, there were some citizens 11 that did come a long way, and -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. 13 MR. POOL: -- of course, whether you will 14 or won't allow, I don't know what -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. We'll -- we'll let 16 them -- 17 MR. POOL: Okay. That's good. And I'll 18 stand by them. 19 You have no comments? 20 Thank you. Appreciate that. 21 Thanks for your -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for being here. 23 MS. TINKER: The next speaker is 24 Alan Oyler, a citizen of Lake County. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 117 2 of the Cabinet. 3 Adjust the mic for a short person. 4 My name's Alan Oyler. I'm a resident of 5 the Sugarloaf Mountain area. 6 We're here to support the County. 7 And I'll be a little bit presumptuous and 8 presume to answer some of the questions that 9 you asked of Commissioner Pool. 10 But first I'd just like to mention -- I'd 11 be remiss if I didn't give a word of thanks to 12 the Cabinet Aides. You've got a fantastic 13 staff. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's always good to hear. 15 MR. OYLER: They've been very patient with 16 us, walking us through a process that we were 17 very unfamiliar with. I can't say enough about 18 how good they've been to us. 19 So just working for municipal government, I 20 know that sometimes staff doesn't get credit 21 very often. I think they deserve credit on 22 this one. 23 Thank you very much for all your 24 assistance. 25 Having said that, the issue before you ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 118 2 appropriately when they denied the petitioner's 3 request for an extension. 4 I think there's an underlying issue that 5 Commissioner Pool tried to touch on that is 6 also part of this issue, and that's why does 7 the Government authority set time limits in the 8 first place? Because the world does not stack, 9 things change, areas change, development 10 patterns change. 11 And as a result, setting a time limit gives 12 the governing authority an opportunity to 13 review the appropriateness of a development 14 when that time limit expires. 15 And I think that's one of the things that 16 occurred in this case, because while the rest 17 of the County has changed, this development has 18 not. It looks the same that it did ten years 19 ago. And conditions are significantly 20 different. 21 The market that this project was intended 22 to serve is now being served by development in 23 the city of Clermont. It's one of the reasons 24 why they've had a difficult time marketing it. 25 The market's being served. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 119 2 area is developed in a character, as the 3 Commissioner mentioned, as rural residential. 4 Having said that, let's get to the issue, 5 and that's the one that your recommended order 6 has focused on, and we'll focus on this as 7 well: The illness of Mr. Cox, and the effect 8 that that illness had on the petitioner's 9 ability to conduct business. 10 You know, I think the testimony supports 11 the County's position. Mr. Cox became ill in 12 late 1995, about the same time that another 13 property owner became the point man for the 14 owners. 15 He attended meetings on behalf of the 16 group, and if an action was necessary by the 17 group, he would send out correspondence, and he 18 would put a date certain on that correspondence 19 for a reply. 20 And in his testimony, the reason this 21 individual indicated that he did that was 22 because they were used to not receiving 23 information back from Mr. Cox. 24 And so for them to proceed with business, 25 they said, here's a decision that needs to be ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 120 2 don't, we're proceeding with the recommended 3 action. 4 This individual assumed the responsibility 5 of point person within the group by having done 6 that. And they were quite successful. 7 Because during this period of time when 8 Mr. Cox was reportedly ill, and there's 9 probably no question that he was, but again, 10 the question is, did his illness affect the 11 ability of the group to do business? 12 When he was ill, the property owners had 13 two contracts that they were negotiating on, 14 not just entertaining. The testimony says 15 extensive negotiation. 16 That indicates to me that somebody had the 17 business wherewithal to proceed with the 18 potential of signing a contract. Certainly 19 that effort was not impacted by Mr. Cox's 20 illness. 21 Even though those contracts were not 22 secured, they were secured for reasons that had 23 nothing to do with Mr. Cox's illness. One of 24 them was that they were still in negotiations 25 with the Department of Community Affairs, and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 121 2 that period of time. 3 The other was the inability of the proposed 4 purchaser to secure financing. Neither factor 5 had anything to do with the illness of Mr. Cox. 6 In his recommended order, the judge also 7 implies that development on the property didn't 8 occur, because without Mr. Cox's guidance, the 9 other owners lacked the business experience and 10 the financial resources to proceed. 11 Now, this suggests that the owners' 12 intention was to develop the property 13 themselves, secure the financing necessary for 14 capital, do a joint venture. The testimony 15 doesn't support that. 16 The testimony given before the 17 Administrative Law Judge very clearly shows 18 that that was not their intention. They knew 19 that even with Mr. Cox's abilities, a 20 development of this magnitude was beyond their 21 means, both financial, and from a development 22 standpoint to accomplish. 23 Part of the reason why they hired marketing 24 entities are the reason why they hired 25 Development of Regional Impact experts. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 122 2 in the testimony, every contract mentioned for 3 purchase is for straight purchase. There's 4 never been a mention in testimony about a joint 5 venture prospect. 6 Once again, Mr. Cox's illness didn't 7 prevent them from proceeding. 8 From the beginning, this has been a classic 9 case of land speculation. Mr. Cox purchased 10 the property after it was damaged by freezes. 11 He was the main property owner, he did this on 12 a speculative real estate venture. And these 13 folks had five years to bring this to fruition. 14 This was the risk that they chose to bear. 15 I'm sorry, sir, if I'm dragging on. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. You're doing well. 17 MR. OYLER: Thank you. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very -- this is very 19 impressive. 20 MR. OYLER: This is a business decision -- 21 not bad for an engineer, right, pretending to 22 be an attorney? 23 Could they have foreseen all the factors 24 involved? 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: I had that coming. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 123 2 No. But that's the nature of a speculative 3 real estate venture. These folks had an 4 opportunity, circumstances were against them 5 from a business standpoint, they failed to move 6 the project forward. 7 But are the reasons cited the reasons for 8 excusable delay? 9 We believe not. We believe that you have 10 sufficient evidence and testimony to overturn 11 or modify the judge's recommended order. There 12 is evidence there. There's two sides to the 13 coin. We believe that it strongly supports the 14 County's position. There was no reason for 15 excusable delay. 16 And what reasons do you have for 17 overturning that decision? 18 Well, frankly, the reason is simple. Based 19 upon the language in the Development Order, it 20 was up to the County to determine what 21 constituted excusable delay. 22 The petitioners made a presentation before 23 the Commission, and they voted unanimously -- 24 unanimously to deny. They apparently did not 25 feel that the reasons presented constituted ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 124 2 Their actions have been supported by the 3 town of Mont Verde and the City of Clermont and 4 the Lake County Water Authority, all of whom 5 sent supporting letters to this Commission. 6 But why should they support the County in 7 this issue? Because this was a decision made 8 by our local representatives, individuals who 9 were familiar with the area, and ruled in the 10 best interest of the community at large. 11 They also know that your decision today has 12 the potential to set the pattern of development 13 in this area of the County for years to come. 14 And so they supported the County's 15 decision, just as we support the County's 16 decision, and ask that in your recommended 17 order, you deny the request for extension. 18 Thank you very much for your time and your 19 consideration. 20 The citizens group stands open for 21 questions if you have any -- 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Anybody else like to speak 23 on behalf of the citizens, come up. 24 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question for 25 you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 125 2 SECRETARY HARRIS: Is it Oyler? 3 MR. OYLER: Yes, ma'am. 4 SECRETARY HARRIS: Mr. Oyler, I think your 5 arguments were -- were very persuasive. 6 I'd like to -- to focus again on -- I need 7 to refocus on -- on really what we're trying to 8 accomplish, what -- what our parameters are in 9 terms of looking at the ALJ's decision. 10 But is it a conflict, indeed, if the 11 County -- you know, if we're moving foward, the 12 County wants to purchase this as a park, or 13 have us -- the State lands purchase it, is 14 that -- is that a conflict if they're really 15 working at -- at trying to make that occur, 16 rather than -- than allow it to -- to move 17 forward in development? 18 MR. OYLER: If I go backwards in time to 19 when the County made the decision to deny 20 excusable delay, the concept of a park was 21 nonexistent at that time. 22 SECRETARY HARRIS: So there's no conflict 23 of interest at that time, whenever you feel 24 that they weren't looking to try to purchase it 25 themselves, or have us purchase it. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 126 2 opinion, because I can't represent the County. 3 But my opinion is that at that time, they ruled 4 on excusable delay. 5 When you review the meeting minutes for the 6 Commission meeting, there's at least eight 7 references made to excusable delay in the 8 presentations that were brought before them. 9 They knew quite well it was an excusable delay 10 determination. 11 There was no issue on the development of 12 the park. It was, in my mind, and those 13 present, strictly focusing on whether or not 14 the petitioner had demonstrated excusable 15 delay. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I ask the County a 17 question? 18 The County's back just -- because there's 19 a -- I assume in Lake County, given its fast 20 growing nature, you've had more than one DRI 21 that you've considered in the last decade. 22 And what's been the policy of the County as 23 it relates to extending DRIs, what's -- what's 24 been the record? Have there been -- is there a 25 consistency here? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 127 2 consistency. And, again, that's what I would 3 like to say, that, in fact, projects that were 4 ongoing, projects that had had apartments being 5 built, or homes being constructed were allowed 6 the extension. 7 Plantation was one, I think Royal -- let 8 me see. South Lake was one that said that 9 approximately 400 apartments were finished. We 10 allowed them to go forward. 11 Pembroke had approximately 50 percent 12 complete, we allowed them to go forward. 13 Monterey was in bankruptcy, no 14 construction. But because of the bankruptcy, 15 we allowed them to go forward. 16 This doesn't have bankruptcy nor did they 17 have any construction underway is why it was 18 denied. And that's what I -- I think we're 19 hanging our hat on the fact that there was 20 nothing that had happened to the property that 21 you could say, this is an improvement, they're 22 going forward, we recognize that. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Four DRIs that you've 24 extended -- 25 MR. POOL: Right. Four that we've ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 128 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- none that you've turned 3 down. 4 MR. POOL: -- none we've turned down. 5 Again -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: For reasons -- 7 MR. POOL: -- all underway. Right. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 9 MS. TINKER: We have two other speakers, 10 Governor. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please. 12 MS. TINKER: Two other speakers. 13 Council member, Elaine Renick from the City 14 of Clermont. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 16 MS. RENICK: Thank you. Good morning. 17 My name is Elaine Renick, and I'm a Council 18 member from Clermont, and I'm speaking on their 19 behalf. 20 The City of Clermont also asks that you 21 deny this extension. 22 As Mr. Oyler said, there is a reason why 23 there are time limitations put on any 24 Development Order. And we need to consider 25 whether it is appropriate to develop Sugarloaf ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 129 2 Clermont has changed drastically in the 3 last few years. And I would like to point out 4 two major changes that affect this proposed 5 development. 6 The first one is we now find ourselves 7 competing for water resources. We are having 8 great difficulty trying to renew our 9 consumptive use permit in Clermont with the 10 St. Johns, and even recently learned that we 11 are facing a consent order. 12 To say water is scarce in Lake County is a 13 gross understatement. As the Lake County Water 14 Authority said in their October 19th letter to 15 you, there is an urgent need to protect high 16 recharge areas for the long-term sustainability 17 of groundwater resources in south Lake County. 18 And the increased impervious surface in an 19 area of high recharge will be detrimental to 20 our water resources in Lake County. 21 Secondly, Clermont's economy and its very 22 identity is now linked to sports and 23 recreation. We're no longer the citrus county. 24 And Sugarloaf is a vital part of that. 25 Clermont is well known for its triathlons. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 130 2 center opened. 3 You should have received a letter from 4 John Moore, the Director of the training 5 center, from him and his board also supporting 6 the denial of this extension. 7 You, the State, has also invested heavily 8 in our quest to become a sports mecca, recently 9 approving several hundred thousands in funding 10 for our new track there. 11 In conclusion, I would like to read the 12 final paragraph of the City of Clermont's 13 letter to you: 14 We share the same environmental and growth 15 related concerns expressed by the Lake County 16 Board of County Commissioners and the 17 Lake County Water Authority, and respectfully 18 request that the Honorable Governor and Cabinet 19 honor the Lake County Board of 20 County Commissioner's position opposing the 21 requested time extension for this project. 22 Thank you. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 24 Please -- quick question. 25 If -- if the development complied with the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 131 2 would you have the same position based on what 3 you described, or would you be supportive? 4 MS. RENICK: Well, actually with the -- is 5 it 300 homes? How many are -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think it was -- without 7 getting into the specifics. I mean, just 8 generally. 9 Are you opposed to development, period, or 10 are you -- 11 MS. RENICK: No. I -- I mean, I -- I 12 realize that there has been a movement to move 13 towards the -- the park concept, which 14 obviously that would be ideal. 15 But a development of -- that would have 16 less of an impact. I mean, 300 homes versus 17 possibly 2500 homes, the negative impact on 18 Clermont would be significantly reduced, yes. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 20 Any other questions? 21 Do we have another speaker? 22 MS. TINKER: We have one last speaker, 23 Charles Lee, representing -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: How come Charles -- 25 MS. TINKER: -- the Audubon Society. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 132 2 to speak? 3 MS. TINKER: And then I've asked 4 Greg Munson to sort of wrap this back up, and 5 get back on the issue -- on the legal issues. 6 MR. LEE: Governor and members of the 7 Land and Water Adjudicatory Commission, 8 Charles Lee representing Audubon of Florida. 9 We, too, would ask you to reject the 10 recommended order and your staff 11 recommendation, and side with Lake County on 12 this matter. 13 Governor and members of the Commission, 14 I think there is really but one essential issue 15 that I would hope would be foremost in the 16 minds of this Commission. 17 And that essential issue is: Under what 18 circumstances is it appropriate for the 19 State of Florida to step in and overturn the 20 position of an elected County Commission on an 21 issue of this kind? 22 Now, I would suggest to you that there are 23 issues that merit that kind of action on behalf 24 of the state of Florida. If this were an 25 amendment to this Development Order that was ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 133 2 or take a bite out of the Everglades, or the 3 Suwannee River, I would suggest to you that 4 under such circumstances, conditions could 5 present themselves where there was a matter of 6 compelling State interest at issue where it 7 might be appropriate for you to reach down on 8 behalf of the State of Florida into the 9 business of this County Commission and say, no, 10 we are going to change that decision. 11 But I would suggest to you that in this 12 case, if you look at the words and the terms 13 and the matters that are at issue, and you 14 think about it in the context of the discussion 15 we have been having for the last couple of 16 years about the appropriate role of the State 17 of Florida with regard to growth management, I 18 would suggest to you that there is nothing of 19 record in this Administrative Law Judge's 20 recommended order, or anything below, that 21 comes close to suggesting that there is a 22 legitimate purpose for the State of Florida, 23 through you as the Land and Water Adjudicatory 24 Commission, to substitute your judgment, or to 25 substitute the judgment of one Administrative ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 134 2 appropriate interpretation of the words, 3 excusable delay? 4 That's really what you're doing. You're -- 5 you're overturning the County Commission's 6 decision, and you're substituting the legal 7 thinking of the Administrative Law Judge for 8 the thinking of that elected County Commission. 9 I think that you should not do it. 10 And I think the reason that you should not 11 do it goes right to the very words that are 12 written into the Development Order. And 13 I think that the words in the Development Order 14 mean something, and that they're really not 15 looked at very carefully by this Administrative 16 Law Judge in reaching his recommended order. 17 The words say that in the event the 18 developer fails to demonstrate reliance on the 19 Development Order by having substantially 20 proceeded with the development approved herein 21 within five years of the effective date, then 22 the Development Order shall terminate. 23 And there was a definition, a very express 24 definition of what that criteria would be again 25 written into the Development Order itself. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 135 2 condition, substantially proceeded shall mean 3 that the developer shall have constructed, or 4 have cause to be constructed improvements that 5 can be expected to generate at least 392 total 6 ADT, or in other words, daily trips, 7 representing 5 percent of the first phase of 8 the development. 9 This was not a good faith clause; this was 10 not a clause that said, if you make some 11 progress or do something in the direction of 12 moving this development ahead, you're okay. 13 There was a very specific numerical 14 standard written into the Development Order, 15 which I would suggest the developer, if they 16 didn't like it, could have objected to, or 17 appealed at the time. They did not. They did 18 not later meet that test. 19 And now essentially they're asking -- 20 they're -- they're asking for a waiver. 21 But the most important words I think are in 22 another section of what was written into the 23 Development Order. The above time limitations 24 may be extended on Lake County's finding of 25 excusable delay. Lake County's finding of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 136 2 The Development Order did not say, they may 3 be extended upon a finding of excusable delay. 4 It said, Lake County's finding of excusable 5 delay. 6 And I would suggest to you that that 7 limitation in this Development Order is what 8 you should expressly focus on in looking at the 9 infirmity of what has been recommended to you 10 by the Administrative Law Judge. 11 And also then reflect upon it with regard 12 to what the appropriate role of the Land and 13 Water Adjudicatory Commission is in reviewing a 14 development of this kind. 15 The Development Order itself, within its 16 own four corners, set the standard. The 17 standard of review was what the County thought 18 would be excusable delay. 19 And what the Administrative Law Judge is 20 asking you to do, and what the recommendation 21 in front of you is asking you to do, is to say, 22 no, we're going to ignore those words that were 23 written into the Development Order and agreed 24 to by everybody, including the developer for 25 five years. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 137 2 going to say, instead of the County's 3 determination of what constitutes excusable 4 delay, we're going to accept the ALJ's 5 substitution. 6 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Governor, I'd like 7 to ask a question. 8 Is there -- I haven't seen it in any of my 9 paperwork. Is there a list of the reasonable 10 excuses that the County has given? 11 Do they have a -- you know, like a standard 12 list, these are the excuses we'll accept for 13 the delay, or -- or is it just some -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: He's not -- 15 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Well, I mean, but 16 he's making the statement -- 17 MR. LEE: No. I -- I -- Commissioner, I 18 don't -- I don't think there's -- I don't think 19 there's any list. 20 They had a hearing -- they had a public -- 21 they had a public hearing in which the 22 developer came to them and made their case. 23 And the County -- the developer could have 24 presented to the County Commission whatever 25 persuasive grounds or evidence they wanted to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 138 2 The County Commission voted -- I think I 3 heard unanimously they voted after they heard 4 all that, to say no. 5 And -- and my point here is simply saying 6 that in the construct of this Development Order 7 as a legal document, it was written that that 8 decision was the province of Lake County. On 9 that discretionary judgment area, the brackets 10 around that are within Lake County's domain. 11 And the problem about the proceeding here 12 today is, we're taking that out of 13 Lake County's domain, and we're substituting an 14 Administrative Law Judge's recommendation for 15 that fragment. 16 And my suggestion to you is, if you look at 17 the purposes of the DRI statute, and -- and the 18 idea that the Development of Regional Impact 19 statute is supposed to give your Department of 20 Community Affairs, regional planning councils, 21 adjacent governments, the ability to look at 22 the big picture issues that might affect the 23 environment or transportation or quality of 24 life crossing the jurisdictional lines of 25 counties and municipalities from very big ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 139 2 its own terms was supposed to achieve. 3 And -- and the problem is, with this 4 decision, we're not -- we're not achieving any 5 of those things. We're reaching into this 6 minutia, and we're substituting the judgment of 7 an ALJ for what we believe was the good 8 judgment of the elected County Commissioners 9 in -- in this area. 10 So our recommendation to you is, frankly, 11 that you simply act as the Adjudicatory 12 Commission to reject this recommended order, 13 and that you reject this recommended order upon 14 a point of law, which is the point of law 15 relating to the substitution of the judgment. 16 And it goes back to what was written in and 17 agreed to in the Development Order, that, 18 in fact, it would be the County's decision. 19 And we think that you can say, and you can 20 argue, and you can send your attorneys to 21 whatever appellate processes would ensue 22 hereafter to argue that in the view of the 23 Land and Water Adjudicatory Commission, looking 24 at the policies that drive the DRI statute, 25 that drive the growth management statutes, and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 140 2 Florida believe in a contemporary sense should 3 be achieved by those growth management 4 statutes, that you don't think that reaching 5 down into this small local part of the decision 6 is what you as the Adjudicatory Commission are 7 supposed to do, irregardless of the 8 recommendations of the Administrative Law 9 Judge. 10 So -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Charles. 12 MR. LEE: -- we hope you will stick with 13 the County on this one, and stick with good 14 growth management on this one. 15 Thank you. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 17 SECRETARY HARRIS: Governor. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Harris. 19 SECRETARY HARRIS: I have a question for 20 General Butterworth, always put our -- our 21 in-house attorney on the spot. 22 I have a question that I -- I -- a lot of 23 these things that Charles has brought up, 24 and -- and some of the other issues seem like 25 very good points. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 141 2 review from the Administrative Law Judge. Some 3 of these things weren't entered. And are we 4 not supposed to look at that? I mean, I 5 thought we were only supposed to look to what 6 the ALJ said. 7 Can you kind of clearly define -- we 8 have -- a determination of fact is -- is 9 supposed to be a very, very, very high 10 standard. 11 What we are supposed to do today is decide 12 if we're being more reasonable than the Judge, 13 and -- and we're having a very short 14 introduction to all of this, where he had the 15 opportunity to review everything. 16 Can -- can you kind of bring it in for a 17 landing and really kind of codify exactly what 18 we're trying to say or do, because a lot of 19 these things we're hearing for the first time, 20 and I'm not certain we -- we get to look behind 21 the veil. 22 Can you explain for us -- 23 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I know the 24 lawyer for FLAWAC can -- can address this also. 25 But the -- the actual findings of fact ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 142 2 things that the Administrative Judge determined 3 that -- we have to accept that. 4 But we do not have to accept his 5 recommendation on the law. We can reject that. 6 So you could find the findings of fact, but 7 say that -- that those facts do not meet the 8 law of reasonable delay -- excusable delay, 9 I'm sorry. 10 So we could actually reject the conclusions 11 of law, but we cannot reject the conclusions of 12 fact. 13 MR. SMITH: Tim Smith again -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're back. 15 MR. SMITH: -- if you would. 16 What Mr. Lee is asking you to do is to 17 substitute your judgment for the Legislature of 18 this state. The State has provided the remedy 19 for appeals of the local government's decision 20 on development orders and amendments to 21 development orders. 22 Now, I grant you, that ordinarily you would 23 not see an amendment of this sort where it's a 24 request for a -- a -- an extension of less than 25 five years. You wouldn't see it ordinarily, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 143 2 says, that is not a substantial deviation. 3 It's not a big change. 4 It's below even the lowest threshold for 5 being presumed not to be a substantial 6 deviation. So that's why it may seem that 7 there's -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, but -- 9 MR. SMITH: -- a discharge. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- but the -- the -- the 11 DRI was granted ten years ago, wasn't it? 12 MR. SMITH: Well, the DRI was granted n 13 '94, it became effective at the end of '95 14 after an appeal by DCA. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- 16 MR. SMITH: So the extension -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- seven years ago. 18 MR. SMITH: -- the extension is for less 19 than five years. That's the point. And to 20 start from the time that it would expire. 21 Mr. Lee mentioned the paragraph -- quoted 22 the paragraph about the substantially 23 proceeding, and, you know, how that had to be 24 defined, and mentioned how the time frames may 25 be extended upon Lake County's finding of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 144 2 resulting from the delay and so forth. 3 Lake County would be making that decision 4 no matter what the amendment was. The statutes 5 say that if you want an amendment to your 6 Development Order, the County -- the local 7 government, it can be a city, has to approve it 8 first. That's all that means. 9 What do you do then? You have a 10 Development Order amendment, it still falls 11 within the definition of a Development Order 12 under Chapter 380. 13 Our remedy is to appeal to you. You send 14 it then to the judge, the ALJ, to do the work 15 of finding the facts. We did that. The County 16 apparently was unable to do that. 17 You asked if there's a list of -- of 18 factors for excusable delay. We certainly 19 couldn't find any. We asked them in 20 interrogatories; we had depositions; their 21 witnesses said, we don't have any criteria for 22 excusable delay. 23 Their director of planning and growth 24 management said that, and the one -- and they 25 didn't call that person at hearing. The person ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 145 2 senior planner said, well, we don't -- 3 the Board doesn't have criteria. 4 They suggested some possible factors, very 5 similar actually to the ones that we suggested. 6 We looked at what they'd done before. 7 They have granted it in three cases where 8 there was an excusable delay standard in the 9 Development Order. They also granted an 10 extension where there was no standard, and they 11 didn't give any reason there. 12 In the three cases where excusable delay 13 applied, they never made any express findings 14 on excusable delay. And you can't even find 15 any discussion of excusable delay in the staff 16 reports or the minutes, except, in our case, 17 that's -- that's the next one. 18 There you see a -- a Commissioner 19 mentioning excusable delay. But you don't see 20 a finding on excusable delay. And you see in 21 the same breath where they mention excusable 22 delay, they haven't substantially proceeded. 23 Now, going back to the Development Order, 24 because I think this is very important. That's 25 the only place we can find a standard in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 146 2 any criteria for excusable delay, except by 3 reviewing those decisions. 4 It says though in that paragraph, these 5 time limitations, plural, may be extended. And 6 the -- in the cases where construction is 7 mentioned -- I think, the County Commissioner 8 Pool mentioned that, well, in these other 9 cases, we had construction. 10 They weren't looking for an extension of 11 the commencement date. It's tautological. 12 Of course, there was construction already 13 started. Those happened to be cases where they 14 were looking for an extension of the 15 termination date. And there was no finding 16 that construction had to be started. 17 So there was nothing that you can see from 18 the record that would tell you, there are 19 criteria. 20 There was one case where no construction 21 had started, and bankruptcy had been the reason 22 given. 23 There's another case where they said 24 changing economic conditions. But again, it 25 wasn't the Board of County Commissioners saying ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 147 2 noted in the staff report. The reason for the 3 request is because of changing economic 4 conditions. 5 And in another one, again, no findings, no 6 express findings by the Board, but there's a 7 mention in the staff report in another case 8 where they said, well, they needed more of a 9 realistic schedule before completion. 10 Lastly, I just want to respond to 11 Mr. Oyler. 12 Not only are we being -- are you being 13 urged to change the -- the statute basically, 14 the remedy that we're given, you're also being 15 asked directly by Mr. Oyler, in so many words, 16 to reargue or reevaluate the evidence itself, 17 and modify the findings based on that. 18 Your own staff has admitted that there's 19 substantial competent evidence to support each 20 of the findings. And it doesn't -- it isn't a 21 matter of who has the most here, where there 22 are two sides of -- of -- of the same coin. 23 The judge has made a ruling. And as 24 General Butterworth has noted, those findings 25 should be supported. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 148 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I -- 3 MR. SMITH: -- rec-- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- ask you a question -- 5 MR. SMITH: -- recommended order, as 6 modified in your final order slightly in the -- 7 the conclusions. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 9 I -- I -- I mean, everybody's talking about 10 the process and the law and -- and -- and 11 what's in front of us, which is exactly what we 12 should be doing. 13 But the reason why people are here is 14 they're -- they're scared or concerned about a 15 very dense development on this property. 16 I think that's why the new 17 County Commission is trying to find ways -- 18 I mean, the reason why they voted against this 19 wasn't because they didn't put it -- specified 20 the reasonable delay in their order. 21 They just don't want that much density, I'm 22 assuming. I mean, let's talk plain -- plain 23 common sense here. And I -- I think that's the 24 sense of the homeowners as well. 25 So -- I mean -- and again, I'm -- shouldn't ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 149 2 because we're playing around why -- you know, 3 why we're being forced to do something that -- 4 that may not fit our role. 5 And that is that a developer -- or someone 6 trying to sell the property to a developer, has 7 rights that are greater than maybe would be 8 appropriate to put on this property. 9 And I'm just going to ask you a simple 10 question: Are y'all -- I mean, when you try to 11 sell the property, or when you have plans for 12 development, are you planning to put 2200 -- 13 2200 units on it, on a property that probably 14 with the infrastructure required now would -- 15 I mean, it would be a -- a difficult task to 16 do, and -- and would create tremendous outrage 17 around -- around the neighborhood. 18 I mean, can you -- can you work with the 19 County to -- to agree to something that more 20 closely resembles what the -- what the growth 21 management vision is for the county now? 22 MR. SMITH: Well, perhaps I should let my 23 client representative speak on this, 24 Mr. Steve Price of -- of the trustee for the -- 25 a trustee for the Price family interests; and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 150 2 family interest. 3 But let me just respond directly briefly. 4 This property is under contract. So we 5 can't speak for the purchasers and what they're 6 going to do. But they did appear at the Board 7 of County Commissioners hearing, and they 8 represented the -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: What are the plans? 10 MR. SMITH: -- their plans in general were 11 to reduce the density somewhat. My 12 understanding is, they would come down to about 13 1800, which I'm sure the residents still 14 wouldn't be happy with. 15 I don't think they have firmed up those 16 plans. And, of course, they haven't closed on 17 this property, pending the outcome of this 18 proceeding. 19 But you mentioned that we might have 20 greater rights -- the owner might have greater 21 rights than the neighbors would be comfortable 22 with. 23 (Commissioner Bronson exited the room.) 24 MR. SMITH: Don't forget that this was 25 approved under the '91 plan, and vested rights ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 151 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: I understand. 3 MR. SMITH: And that the comp plan for the 4 County protects vested rights, and that when 5 you're looking at the purposes and policies of 6 Chapter 380, one of the things that's protected 7 there is vested rights. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- no -- that's all 9 lost -- 10 MR. SMITH: Okay. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- legal stuff. 12 I'm just trying to see if there's a common 13 sense solution -- 14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Yeah. 15 Governor, I -- maybe just to help in -- in 16 this -- this way, I'm prepared to make a 17 motion, and I was going to make a motion that 18 we deny the recommended order of the 19 Administrative Law Judge, because this does not 20 meet the conclusion of law, it is not correct. 21 So that's like -- I don't know if there's 22 any support for that. But I just wanted to let 23 this gentleman know that -- 24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I will second 25 it. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 152 2 to speak? 3 MR. PRICE: I would like to say something. 4 Thank you. I'm Steve Price. 5 And this has been a living civics lesson 6 for us. And this has been a long ordeal for my 7 family. 8 The '80s forever changed the face of 9 certainly citrus in Lake County, which is what 10 my family had done since the 1940s. 11 My great grandfather and grandfather 12 planted our groves. They were frozen on my 13 father's watch. And we're left with this. 14 We'd just like to say just a couple things. 15 Property ownership is a privilege with 16 rights, it's a right with privileges. It's not 17 a sentence. 18 Everyone that's talked here today had the 19 opportunity to attend this public -- this 20 public hearing before the Administrative Law 21 Judge. It was held in the City of Tavares, 22 seats were there. Not one person showed up. 23 Not one. 24 Commissioner Pool, who has spoken -- none 25 of the Commissioners who made this decision ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 153 2 We have done everything we have been asked 3 to do. It's not our fault that the County had 4 no standards. We would be having a whole 5 different conversation if the County had 6 articulated some standards about this. 7 That we -- that would -- that we would 8 reward having those standards, to me is the 9 precedent that we need to be concerned about. 10 Because if you reward not having standards, 11 then no county anywhere needs to have 12 standards. 13 Why should they limit themselves by that? 14 We've had to justify ourselves to many 15 people. We've had to answer questions over and 16 over and over. What we have now are new 17 questions. 18 And at some point, this has to end for us. 19 This has not been easy for anyone. 20 (Commissioner Bronson entered the room.) 21 MR. PRICE: But everyone had their 22 opportunity. And the Administrative Law Judge 23 certainly, in my mind, was the only one who had 24 nothing to gain out of this decision; was the 25 only neutral trier of fact; and he applied the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 154 2 We respectfully request that the only 3 neutral decision maker be affirmed. Again, 4 everyone here had the opportunity to make 5 argument. Not one person did. 6 The judge didn't find partially in our 7 favor, he found completely in our favor. 8 And we would respectfully request -- as 9 someone whose -- whose history in this county 10 goes -- goes way back. 11 And certainly we have all seen our lives 12 impacted by the weather, and things beyond our 13 control. But this, we have done everything 14 we've asked to do. 15 Specifically, Governor Bush, to your 16 question, it was testified at the hearing 17 itself, the September hearing, that we would be 18 happy to reduce the density. It was testified 19 by us, it was testified by the buyers as well. 20 But that -- that -- that numerical equation 21 can't be derived here, nor is this the proper 22 forum to do that. The willingness is there. 23 But I will say, we're the only group that 24 has done everything we've said we were going to 25 do. And we've done that consistently. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 155 2 Yes, Treasurer. 3 TREASURER GALLAGHER: If I may, it appears 4 to me that what we ought to do is have both 5 sides agree to a deferment. 6 And the reason I say that is because that's 7 the only way a deferment can happen, 8 number one. 9 And, number two, both sides are looking for 10 the advantage. And the advantage in 11 negotiation is whichever way this Cabinet 12 votes, as the Land and Water Adjudicatory 13 Commission, gives one side or the other, 14 you know, a leg up. 15 And so I would -- I'm prepared to make the 16 other motion, opposite of what 17 General Butterworth and Comptroller Milligan 18 have made. And I don't know that any of us 19 know where the votes are at this particular 20 moment. 21 But before doing that, I would prefer to 22 make my substitute be that we would accept an 23 agreement between the Commission and the 24 developer to postpone this, and let them sit 25 down and -- and work some of this out, as ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 156 2 supposed to pick a side in order to give one 3 side or the other negotiating advantage. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's ask -- would you like 5 a -- would you like a -- to take your chances 6 now, or -- or defer? 7 MR. SMITH: Our position really hasn't 8 changed since -- it sometimes looked a little 9 dismal during the past week or so. 10 We don't see any reason to believe that the 11 County, in fact, is going to budge on this. So 12 Mr. Minkoff, the County Attorney, actually 13 opined during the hearing before the Board of 14 County Commissioners that if, in fact, this 15 were -- were denied, and we had to come back 16 in, the County didn't have any authority to 17 settle for less than what the current 18 comprehensive -- comprehensive plan would 19 require. 20 We can't come down, I'm sure the purchasers 21 aren't going to want to come down to 283 units, 22 or whatever it is right now. 23 So I don't see any reason for us to agree 24 to a deferment. 25 I just want to make one last comment, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 157 2 with a misimpression. 3 I know I talked about the need for this 4 being -- this -- this remedy to have real 5 effect. You know, this is a remedy provided 6 under Chapter 380. 7 But I also said, ordinarily, you would not 8 see this kind of case before you. And I doubt 9 that you have. I -- I wasn't able to find any 10 such case. 11 The reason is the State automatically 12 routinely approves these. This is conclusively 13 not a substantial deviation. At the local 14 level, which, of course, you still have to have 15 a -- for which you still have to have a local 16 approval, ordinarily, it would be approved, 17 too. 18 It was approved every single time by this 19 County in the four instances that they had a 20 chance to approve it before. They never 21 developed any criteria, they offered no 22 criteria coming up to the hearing, and really 23 didn't say the Board had a criteria at the 24 hearing. 25 I see no basis for your rejection of -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 158 2 order. I see it as completely without 3 precedent. 4 And we would be appealing and seeking 5 attorney's fees -- 6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I -- 7 MR. SMITH: -- if that happens. 8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- I believe 9 the law on this is -- and maybe staff can help 10 here that -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Great. 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- we must 13 act within 90 days. It can, of course, be 14 deferred. But it can only be deferred with the 15 consent of -- 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Parties. 17 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- parties. 18 So, therefore, what we just heard now 19 that -- like we've got that action is to -- 20 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Then if -- if I may, 21 I'll make a substitute motion that we agree 22 with the hearing officer with the amendments 23 before it. 24 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right. Now, we've done ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 159 2 that I get this right. 3 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Vote on my -- vote 4 on -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: We vote on 6 Commissioner Gallagher's substitute motion 7 to -- to support the hearing officer's 8 recommendation. 9 There is a -- there is a -- is there any 10 more discussion, first of all? We've discussed 11 this out, haven't we? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I just have 13 one -- one -- just for the record -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Almost. 15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: -- on this. 16 And you brought it out very well, Governor, 17 with the -- the County. 18 The County has been faced with this before. 19 And in other areas, they have gone along with 20 the developer, as long as something had been 21 done, some progress had been made. 22 The only thing we have heard progress has 23 been made here was the fact that it's been 24 fenced and it has some cows on it. 25 So I think this County in the past has ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. FLORIDA LAND/WATER ADJUDICATORY COMMISSION 160 2 that we should listen to the County Commission, 3 and I do believe that the Judge's conclusions 4 of law are incorrect. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 6 There is a motion and a second of 7 Commissioner Gallagher's recommendation to 8 accept the Administrative Law Judge ruling. 9 All in favor, say aye. 10 THE CABINET: Aye. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: No. 13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. 14 TREASURER GALLAGHER: No. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: The ayes have it. 16 I would urge -- you know, I know you're 17 looking at selling the property. But you're 18 going to have to deal with the County on an 19 ongoing basis. And -- 20 Thank you all. 21 Thanks for coming. 22 (The Florida Land and Water Adjudicatory 23 Commission Agenda was concluded.) 24 * * * 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 161 2 Is there a motion on the minutes? 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Move. 4 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded. 6 Without objection, it's approved. 7 Item 2. 8 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is a charter school 9 appeal. 10 Bay Middle School is a middle school in 11 Walton County, which had requested the 12 School Board to approve them as a conversion 13 charter school. The appeal was denied on 14 August 14th. 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir. 16 MR. PIERSON: The State Board of Education 17 considers appeals of denials of charter school 18 applications pursuant to 96-186, Laws of 19 Florida. 20 Florida law authorizes School Boards to 21 grant approval to applicants who wish to 22 operate charter schools within their district. 23 The law allows an applicant who has been denied 24 a charter, the right to appeal the 25 School Board's decision to the State Board of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 162 2 Based on the written record and oral 3 argument presented, the State Board must vote 4 to recommend acceptance or rejection of the 5 appeal to the School Board. 6 The vote requires a simple majority of the 7 members, and by law, is not subject to 8 provisions of the Administrative Procedures 9 Act. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, you've got that going 11 for you, based on the last -- 12 MR. PIERSON: The following requirements 13 apply to the applicant, the District 14 School Board, and their representatives. 15 The appeal must be based on errors the 16 applicant charges the School Board made in its 17 decision to deny the charter. 18 The written arguments submitted by the 19 applicant for the State Board is limited to 20 discussion of those errors. 21 The record of this proceeding is limited to 22 the written arguments, the charter school 23 application, and transcripts of meetings before 24 the District School Board. 25 Representatives of each party may give oral ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 163 2 arguments previously submitted to the 3 State Board. 4 Each side has been requested to limit its 5 summary to 10 minutes. After the summaries are 6 presented, a vote will be taken, and a written 7 recommendation of the vote will be returned to 8 the District School Board. 9 Representing the charter school, we have 10 Janet Stein, representing the Governing Board. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good almost afternoon. 12 MS. STEIN: I have 10 minutes. 13 My name's Janet Stein. I am a member of 14 the Governing Board. I'm a former principal of 15 Bay Middle School. And along with some of the 16 fine educators here, I helped write the charter 17 application that is before you today. 18 I'm very proud to be in our 19 State's Capitol. Governor Bush, and members of 20 the Cabinet, I appreciate your taking the time 21 to listen to educators. 22 We're from a very small area in northwest 23 Florida, but a well known area. I know 24 you know of the success of the Seaside Charter 25 School. And I hope today you will give ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 164 2 become a sister school of Sea-- with Seaside a 3 chance to continue to thrive. 4 Small middle schools give educators a 5 chance to impact education, and to take 6 ownership of the educational process. It also 7 provides a safe and nurturing environment for 8 the students. 9 Today we have educators that woke up at 10 4:00 in the morning, we have community faculty 11 here, we have students here, and 12 Governing Board members. 13 I would like you to consider carefully the 14 points I'm about to make. 15 I believe that we're in favor of progress 16 in south Walton, that if we have two or three 17 small middle schools in south Walton, that we 18 will put education on the map in south Walton, 19 just like the new urbanism has along the 20 beaches. 21 Bay Middle School opened its doors 22 three-and-a-half years ago as a D regulated 23 school. And we have been inn-- innovative and 24 focused on the nurturing and needs of our 25 students ever since we opened. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 165 2 bay -- or on the north side of 98. They are 3 the parents that clean and build the houses 4 along the beaches. 5 Our demographics are a little different 6 than the Seaside school. We have 40 to 7 50 percent free and reduced lunch, where 8 Seaside is around 10 percent. 9 Our school was built during the 10 Works Progress Administration. It is a -- a 11 school that is solidly built and is on the 12 historic registry. We're surrounded by 13 Eden State Gardens. 14 And, Governor Bush, we had our students in 15 '99-2000 write letters to you to add 101 acres 16 onto the gardens to the State Park. And they 17 have ownership of that. And if you approve 18 this charter today, and send it back to the 19 School Board, these kids will continue to have 20 ownership of their learning. 21 It is in the best interest of the students 22 and the community of south Walton to approve 23 this charter. Nowhere is there a more perfect 24 place, a more perfect setting for a middle 25 school than Bay Middle School with its ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 166 2 I would like to cut to the chase here and 3 address the reasons for denial. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: There you go. 5 MS. STEIN: And the first reason is a 6 pre-K/K center. 7 The School Board says that the 8 pre-K/K center has been planning for Bay Middle 9 School since Bay Middle School's inception. 10 I was the principal of Bay Middle School 11 for three years. And from my perspective as 12 principal, this is just not true. The Board 13 may have thought that we were an experiment for 14 one year, but we have continued passed that 15 year to flourish. 16 And the Board has put money into Bay Middle 17 School to improve its effectiveness as a middle 18 school facility. 19 They accepted $20,000 from Arvida, St. Joe 20 Paper Company; they got $4,200 from the 21 County Commissioners; and put $10,000 of their 22 own money into renovating an elementary 23 playground into a middle school sports field, 24 to include basketball, tennis, and practice 25 areas for football and soccer. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 167 2 the President of the PTO in a public meeting at 3 Butler Elementary School. Every member of 4 the Board was put on the spot to say, do you 5 support Bay Middle School being a separate 6 entity from the high school? 7 And the Board, on a straw vote, supported 8 Bay Middle School in January 2000. 9 Mr. Wayne Miller, who's the head of 10 facilities, came to me on numerous occasions, 11 and talked to me about adding on to the 12 facilities of Bay Middle School to include 13 eight classrooms, science labs, and a media 14 center. 15 The $740,000 was put into the budget in 16 '99-2000 specifically for the renovation of 17 Bay Middle School. 18 In addition to the sports fields, we 19 received a $200,000 technology grant, which was 20 approved through the School Board, which 21 provided a wireless LAN, 25 laptops comp-- 22 laptop computers, and a lot of training in 23 technology for multidisciplinary units and 24 integration technology into the every day 25 curriculum of the classroom. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 168 2 of computers to students. 3 Since the charter application was pending, 4 we have had the $740,000 taken out of the 5 budget -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Two, or 2 to 1? 7 SECRETARY HARRIS: One to two. 8 MS. STEIN: It's -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 10 MS. STEIN: Yes. We had a little problem 11 with ratios. 12 We believe it's a financially sound 13 decision -- decision for the School Board to 14 keep Bay Middle School open. 15 We also believe that their estimation of 16 the projection of the high school numbers are 17 conservatively low. We estimated that we would 18 open Bay Middle School with over 125 kids, and 19 the -- the Board was thinking more like 60. 20 We opened up with 141 students, went to 21 156, 198, now at 225 students at Bay Middle 22 School. 23 I think the track record of a conservative 24 estimate from the Board is not the reality in 25 south Walton. We will have the students to ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 169 2 And, furthermore, we believe that if the 3 high school focus is on AP courses and dual 4 enrollment, and OWCC, it will attract top 5 students from surrounding counties, such as 6 Okaloosa County, and we will have a quality 7 high school campus. 8 Furthermore, we pay for ourselves. A 9 charter school is not going to take money from 10 the District. We take the money from the 11 children from the FTE. And we have always been 12 very cost-effective. 13 We have a concern about moving into the 14 high school. We're using 13 classrooms. We're 15 told that we will be contained in one wing of 16 the high school. One wing of this high school 17 has only six classrooms. 18 We believe in creating a nurturing 19 environment for middle school students where 20 they don't have to compete with the social 21 values of the high school student. I don't 22 know how to say it. 23 But our middle school kids need a safe 24 place to be themselves, not worry about the 25 issues that high school kids have to worry ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 170 2 Another reason given for denial of this 3 charter is the faculty was not properly advised 4 as to their employment status. I talked to 5 Marsha Pugh. We had the faculty and the 6 parents vote twice -- 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: How many teachers supported 8 this? 9 MS. STEIN: We had eleven teachers. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: How -- 11 MS. STEIN: We only have one teacher that 12 did not support the application. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's my -- back to the 14 ratio issue, that's over 90 percent -- 15 MS. STEIN: Right. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: And parents? 17 MS. STEIN: We had 143 -- we had 85 percent 18 of the parents support the application. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. 20 MS. STEIN: And this is in two separate 21 votes. 22 And I talked to Marsha Pugh about her 23 concerns of the perception of the teachers, and 24 make sure that they understand that a lot of 25 these decisions, in terms of tenure, would be ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 171 2 I went over these concerns with the 3 teachers, and they voted twice. 4 They also have had the union rep visit them 5 at the school, and -- and this has not deterred 6 them, or changed their minds. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you have a contract with 8 the County that -- a proposed contract that was 9 rejected or -- 10 MS. STEIN: No. We have the application. 11 And in the application is written some of the 12 statements that have to be determined during 13 the contracting stage. But it's -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, just give us some 15 ideas about some of the performance criteria 16 you're willing to accept in return for a 17 charter school status. 18 Do you have -- 19 MS. STEIN: We would like -- we're -- we're 20 going to maintain 77 percent above the 4.0 in 21 Florida Writes, and we're going to maintain a 22 50 percent above Level 3 in reading, and 23 continue to have the best math scores in the 24 County. 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: There you go. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 172 2 the issue of -- of tenure, and what would 3 happen with transfer of procedures. And the 4 teachers were well aware that the details of 5 that would be worked out during the contracting 6 stage. And that was one concern the Board 7 expressed in their denial. 8 We get now to the part I'd like to talk 9 about. The Board tried to say that we were not 10 doing anything new or different that wasn't 11 done in -- generally done in other places in 12 Walton County, and that we did not have new 13 innovation in our charter. 14 We should not be penalized in our charter 15 because we include our existing innovation. 16 The rest of Walton County is not providing 17 what we have in a deregulated school for 25 to 18 1 student-teacher ratio, or the 1 student to 19 2 computer ratio, or the partnership that we 20 have, or the community faculty. 21 And, yes, we continue those innovations. 22 But in our charter application, we're 23 expanding community faculty, expanding the 24 technology integration, expanding the 25 Eden State partnership to include a science lab ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 173 2 trips every nine weeks that are correlated with 3 the curriculum. 4 We are including, because reading is a 5 targeted area that we need to work on, reading 6 portfolios, remediation, emergent programs, and 7 guided reading groups. 8 But beyond all these innovative programs, 9 what I think was the true intent of the charter 10 legislation was by remaining a small school, 11 the teachers and the educators can remain 12 autonomous and empowered to make change for the 13 students at Bay Middle School. 14 This is not to be overlooked, because with 15 that change, all the initiatives were -- will 16 evolve over time, and the school would -- will 17 become a better place for the students. 18 It's a big difference from a school tied to 19 the status quo. We can have -- we can have 20 change in this school where we can be very 21 cost-effective, we can have a media specialist 22 as a community faculty member train students to 23 help with the media center. 24 We can contract out tech support to make it 25 much more affordable -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 174 2 up? 3 MS. STEIN: Yes. I will. 4 I'll talk about the test scores. 5 They say that we're -- our test scores are 6 not showing progress, that we did not earn an A 7 in your A+ plan. 8 We lost the A because we had some 9 ESE students that did so well that we couldn't 10 count them. One student went up 98 points on 11 the reading test. 12 We're such a small school that it came to 13 20 to 21 students. We had 21 below the 3.0, 14 and 20 above in reading. 15 If we looked at the progress of the 16 individual student test scores over the 17 years -- well, if we looked at other grades 18 besides 8th grade, or could have counted one 19 more student, we would have had the A. 20 We started out this school at the 2.8 in 21 Florida Writes. In three years, it rose to a 22 4.1. I do not know of another school that made 23 that kind of progress. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Must have 30 students, I'm 25 not sure you're graded, are you? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 175 2 grade. We had 41 students that could be 3 graded. And one year, we did have to request 4 the grade. 5 In '98-'99, when we first opened, we had 6 65 percent of the kids score below 3.0 in the 7 Florida Writes. 8 In 2000-2001, 100 percent scored a 3.0 or 9 above, 77 percent scored 4.0 or higher. 10 On our 8th grade Florida Writes -- I mean, 11 8th grade reading, we gained 16 points in 12 reading and 19 points in math. Bay has the 13 second highest 8th grade math scores in the 14 county, and the highest 9th grade scores. 15 In 2001, the 6th grade at Bay gained an 16 average of 28 points, and 15 points in reading 17 over their 2000 scores. So that's comparing 18 student's test scores one year to the next 19 year. 20 The 7th grade gained 42 points in reading 21 as an average, and they gained 25 points in 22 math. 23 Eighth grade gained 36 points in reading, 24 and 24 points in math. 25 These are on the NRT test, and these tests ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 176 2 These test scores were shared to the 3 District in a memo from me on June 12th, 2001. 4 It's truly unfair on the part of the 5 School Board and the District to cite academic 6 improvements as a reason to deny this 7 application. 8 And I thank them very much for giving me 9 the opportunity to cite our progress. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: They -- they said that you 11 were doing too well, and, therefore, you 12 couldn't convert? 13 MS. STEIN: They said, quote -- the other 14 two schools in the community earned an A for 15 the past year. Bay Middle School earned a C. 16 It is not -- these schools are all -- all serve 17 the same community, and Bay Middle School is 18 not achieving commensurate with the other two. 19 It is not in the best interest of the 20 pupils or the community to continue the same 21 innovative programs when such programs have not 22 resulted in the school achieving a higher 23 grade. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Got you. 25 MS. STEIN: This is a use of grades -- and ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 177 2 look below the surface, even though they had a 3 memo with graphs that showed in detail the 4 progress of the students. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's hear from the -- from 6 the school district -- 7 MS. STEIN: Okay. Thank you. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- ask some questions 9 and -- is there someone from the 10 School District? 11 MR. PIERSON: Yes, sir. 12 School Board attorney, Ben Holley, will 13 represent the Walton County School Board. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good afternoon. 15 MR. HOLLEY: Good afternoon. 16 Governor, and members of the Cabinet, my 17 name is Ben Holley, and I'm the attorney for 18 the Walton County School Board. 19 We appreciate the opportunity to appear 20 today to express our position in this matter. 21 I'd like to recognize -- I've got 22 Superintendent Coy Yates with me. I'm going to 23 let him have a couple of minutes at the end so 24 he can address you regarding this matter. 25 We've got all five members of our ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 178 2 Director of the charter school application 3 process here. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome. 5 MR. HOLLEY: I think that -- the first 6 thing I want to address so the Board'll be 7 familiar, is the experience of the 8 Walton County School Board with charter 9 schools. 10 As Ms. Stein addressed, we have Seaside 11 Charter School, which was one of the first 12 charter schools in the state of Florida. I -- 13 I think it was probably the second behind the 14 one in Miami that -- that the Governor may have 15 been involved -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: I -- 17 MR. HOLLEY: Or it may have been. I'm not 18 sure. But it was one of the first in the 19 state. 20 We've had four groups that have applied for 21 charter schools, and we've granted three of 22 them, in-- including the Seaside Charter 23 School, and we had a Seaside Charter School in 24 the workplace application which we granted. 25 They didn't get enough pupils, so they ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 179 2 later date. 3 And we have Walton Academy, which is a 4 charter school that provides for special needs 5 for students in 6 through 12 who have 6 disciplinary problems and learning problems. 7 And all of -- all of these have been granted. 8 I think in order to analyze this situation, 9 and -- and determine what led the School Board 10 to make this decision, that the Board has to be 11 familiar with the community that we're talking 12 about, and what the school situation is overall 13 in that community. 14 I don't know how many of you are familiar 15 with south Walton County, but the community 16 we're talking about is a community south of 17 Choctawhatchee Bay in Walton County. And it 18 runs from east to west all the way across the 19 county. 20 In that area, we have Buckley Elementary 21 School, which serves the elementary students; 22 and also at present is serving kindergarten 23 students, but it's become overcrowded, and 24 we've got portables there, and we've got to do 25 something with those kindergarten people. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 180 2 is serving some middle school students; we have 3 Bay Middle School, which is serving some middle 4 school students; and we have a new school that 5 is presently under construction that will be 6 open, hopefully, if -- if we're able to do it, 7 at the beginning of next school year, to serve 8 high school students. 9 And our -- our position is also to have the 10 Bay Middle School students there. 11 And what happened was that the Board has 12 reacted to the people in the south end in that 13 community to try to provide what they wanted. 14 We -- we provided the elementary school. 15 And when we -- when we opened the elementary 16 school in I think June -- or January of 1998, 17 the Bay school was closed from then until the 18 beginning of 1998-'99 school year. 19 At that time, because of the request of the 20 community, the Board, on a temporary basis, 21 agreed to let the middle school students stay 22 there. They had -- I mean, to not stay there, 23 but to come there. 24 They had been going across the bay to 25 Freeport, which has a middle school, which is ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 181 2 also has a high school. 3 So we agreed to let them stay there 4 temporarily,, and at the time, the idea was 5 expressed that once we had another facility 6 available for middle school students in the 7 south end that could be -- could house them, 8 that we were going to use this facility at Bay, 9 which is an old building, we were going to use 10 it for kindergarten. 11 So -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can you answer the question 13 that was brought up about the $600,000 of 14 expenditures that -- to fit the middle school? 15 MR. HOLLEY: Well -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was disparaging. Does 17 that make sense? 18 MR. HOLLEY: Well, the Board -- the Board 19 realized it was going to be two or three years 20 before the other facilities were ready. 21 And a lot of this expenditure is for laptop 22 computers and stuff that can be moved to the 23 other facility. It's -- it's going to be a 24 state of the art, with the appropriate wiring 25 and all to handle the -- the equipment. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 182 2 MR. HOLLEY: No, I'm talking about they can 3 move the laptops from -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh. 5 MR. HOLLEY: -- Bay Middle, over to the 6 high school, if the middle school is housed in 7 the high school. 8 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, wait a minute 9 now. 10 Weren't -- weren't the laptops a grant -- 11 I mean -- isn't -- that isn't $600,000 that you 12 all spent. So why don't you tell us what you 13 really did with the 600,000. 14 MR. YATES: Let me talk. 15 MS. STEIN: Seven hundred and forty 16 thousand. 17 MR. HOLLEY: I'll let him answer that 18 question. I'm -- 19 MR. YATES: Okay. The -- the -- all the 20 laptops and computers was a grant, a technology 21 grant that went there. 22 And I might point out to you that those 23 25 laptops are still sitting there not being 24 used. 25 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: No. I -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 183 2 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: -- used every day in 3 my class. 4 MR. YATES: Let me -- 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Let's -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let -- 7 MR. YATES: Let me tell you that the 8 $650,000 that you're talking about -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, sir. 10 MR. YATES: -- had to do with the 11 renovation project in that school. And 12 two hundred and fifty something thousand 13 dollars I believe of that was a grant. 14 Now, what we did is put four hundred and 15 something thousand dollars into that school 16 to -- to improve it. We put in 17 air conditioning, overhead ducts, we put new 18 walls in there, put a lot of things in there to 19 improve that school. 20 It's still a Class 6 facility, even right 21 now unsuitable for classrooms. 22 So -- 23 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yeah. 24 It was my understanding that the 200 -- 25 Sorry -- two hundred and -- you actually ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 184 2 beautiful job of restoration y'all did. 3 And it included demolition, reroofing, 4 restoration of windows, interior walls, floors, 5 ceilings, installation of HVAC that was -- 6 electrical, fire sprinkling systems, upgrading 7 of the restrooms for accessibility, gaining 8 architecture services -- 9 MR. YATES: Yeah. You're talking about the 10 prior one? Yes. They -- and we went 11 four hundred and something thousand dollars 12 beyond that. 13 Now, it -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Just the basic question is: 15 All that money could be -- could have been used 16 for pre-K or middle school? I mean, there was 17 total transferability, and it was clearly 18 stated that you were going to move to a pre-K? 19 Or was this a -- a decision that was made 20 after -- after the fact, after they moved in? 21 MR. YATES: Okay. I -- I intend to address 22 my particular role in this. But if you want me 23 to do it right now, I'll be happy to. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. 25 MR. YATES: Okay. I came on board in ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 185 2 Now, at that time, we had this new 3 high school coming on line. We actually have 4 two. We have one at Freeport, a high school, 5 which came on line this year, August. 6 Now we have the other one coming on line in 7 August of -- of next year. 8 At that time, when I came on, I proposed a 9 consolidation of Bay Middle School into one 10 wing of the new high school. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. So it was a decision 12 after -- 13 MR. YATES: It was a decision that -- that 14 I made -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's -- that's all I was 16 asking. 17 MR. YATES: But it had been discussed 18 before, yes, sir. 19 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Let me ask a question 20 on that decision. 21 Do you recognize any problems in putting 22 middle school students in the same building 23 with high school students? 24 MR. YATES: No, sir, because simply we have 25 it every -- a lot of different places. One of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 186 2 a K through 12. 3 Well, let me go back and tell you that this 4 wing of the new high school will actually have 5 more space than what they're presently 6 occupying. 7 Now, I keep hearing the word six 8 classrooms. I have repeatedly been on the 9 radio, been in newspapers, and everywhere, and 10 said, there are 12, with a possibility of 13. 11 No intermingling of students, no sharing of 12 facility, except dining room facilities at 13 different times, and some parts of the library 14 at -- 15 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Two -- 16 MR. YATES: -- different times. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- cafeterias? 18 MR. YATES: No. We -- we'll share that, 19 but at different times. 20 See, it -- the only -- 21 TREASURER GALLAGHER: So somebody gets to 22 eat at 11:00, and somebody else has to eat at 23 1:30 or 2:00 -- 24 MR. YATES: Sure. Where -- that's the way 25 they do it now. They'll just be not of these ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 187 2 MR. HOLLEY: What I'd -- what I'd like to 3 point out -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'd be happy to let you 5 continue with your presentation. 6 MR. HOLLEY: Well, what I -- what I want to 7 point out -- 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. Please 9 continue. 10 MR. HOLLEY: -- and the reason I'm getting 11 into this historical standpoint is because the 12 new school that's being constructed in this 13 community, which we're talking about putting a 14 middle school in a wing of it, there's a 15 school -- there's a high school that was 16 constructed, because the people in that 17 community wanted that -- wanted that school 18 constructed -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let's side of the 20 real estate here, because you could have the -- 21 you could actually have a -- a conversion 22 charter school inside of this facility. 23 It doesn't matter where the school's 24 located. You could do that in the -- in the 25 current law. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 188 2 the -- the request for a conversion charter 3 school? 4 MR. YATES: Let me have that one. 5 MR. HOLLEY: The reason it was denied was 6 because the request wanted to use the facility 7 at Bay Middle School. They didn't request to 8 have a charter school in the facility at the 9 high school. And -- 10 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, but -- 11 MR. HOLLEY: -- we need the students in 12 that facility in order to make it feasible to 13 open that high school. And we are -- 14 economically we're not going -- 15 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're not -- 16 MR. HOLLEY: -- to be able to open it if we 17 don't do it. 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let me just give you -- 19 give you a hypothetical here. 20 You have a -- half of a -- half a school, 21 or a third of a school that you need to fill, 22 could you fill it with a converted charter 23 school? Is that the only reason why you would 24 not want this to be done? 25 MR. HOLLEY: That's one reason. The other ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 189 2 the figures any way they want to. The 3 superintendent can address them, too. 4 But -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's -- 6 MR. HOLLEY: -- the truth -- the truth of 7 the matter is, that in that community, which is 8 the community south of the bay, the only school 9 that hadn't performed well on the test has been 10 Bay Middle School. 11 Is that not correct? 12 MR. YATES: I -- I can give you some -- 13 some analysis, if -- if you will permit me. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 15 MR. YATES: On -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Give you -- 17 MR. YATES: -- on the FCAT math scores, let 18 me read the summary. 19 Percent of students for a Level 3 and above 20 in FCAT math: Freeport Middle and 21 Paxton Middle each increased their percentage 22 points by 20. 23 Walton Middle followed with an increase of 24 10 percentage points -- 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Sir, can I just -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 190 2 Would you also include Seaside in that? 3 MR. YATES: I will, sir -- 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Because that's -- 5 MR. YATES: -- yes, sir. 6 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- another middle 7 school. How much they increased theirs. 8 MR. YATES: Walton Middle School followed 9 with an increase of 10 percentage points, 10 Bay Middle School increased by 8 percentage 11 points, and Seaside Neighborhood increased by 12 6 percentage points. 13 Okay. In reading -- 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's -- that's good. All 15 of those are good. 16 MR. YATES: Sure, they're good. That's 17 what we're saying. And there's really no 18 difference -- that -- not a significant 19 difference, in my opinion, between the 20 achievement levels of Bay Middle School and the 21 other middle schools in the area. 22 And the math -- 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well -- 24 MR. YATES: Excuse me, sir. 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- I thought -- if ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 191 2 reason to not let it be a charter school? 3 MR. YATES: I don't know that academics are 4 considered a reason as such for not letting 5 them get it. 6 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, that's -- 7 MR. YATES: What we're saying is, they are 8 not going to perform any better than we are 9 right now. That's what we're saying. 10 Now, as far as going back and looking at 11 the grades, yeah, they were a D school when 12 they started, they have remained a C school the 13 last two years. And the other schools -- other 14 middle schools have raised by at least one 15 letter grade. 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: How many other middle 17 schools lost students to Seaside? 18 MR. YATES: I -- I can't give you that 19 figure. Now, it would have been people in that 20 area. 21 They have -- Seaside has about 90 students 22 I believe at the last count. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Didn't some -- 24 MR. YATES: That's why they -- 25 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- of the Bay ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 192 2 MR. YATES: I would imagine they did. 3 Yes, sir. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: And probably the 5 higher performing -- 6 MR. YATES: And probably -- 7 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- ones? 8 MR. YATES: -- back and forth. 9 Well, that -- I -- I need to point that 10 out, too. Because when you look at Seaside, 11 and you look at -- they only made a 12 6 percentage point increase, you're looking at 13 a -- a group of students who start off much 14 higher on the scale. 15 So naturally their -- their increase would 16 not be as significant number-wise. 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well then -- but that 18 would also show that that's not exactly always 19 the way to measure. 20 MR. YATES: It is one factor that I gave 21 you. You -- you use it any which way you want 22 to. I'll give you a copy of it if you'd like 23 to have -- 24 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, I -- 25 MR. YATES: -- it, sir. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 193 2 the scores. 3 MR. YATES: Okay. Good. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: As you know, they're 5 available on the website. 6 MR. YATES: Uh-hum. Yeah. 7 TREASURER GALLAGHER: So everybody can have 8 them. 9 Proceed. Sorry. 10 MR. YATES: Okay. Let me make one other 11 comment while I'm here. 12 I -- I keep hearing these things about the 13 different -- different things that go on there 14 about the cost effectiveness of the students, 15 so from that -- so forth, and so on. 16 Whenever they first opened as a 17 middle school, they had the lowest per student 18 cost ratio in the District. For the last 19 two years, they've got the highest. So you 20 have to take all those figures into 21 consideration as well. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I thought -- were there any 23 other reasons for denial that we need to know 24 about? 25 MR. HOLLEY: The -- the only other reason ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 194 2 innovative instructional things that weren't 3 already in place in a deregulated school that 4 were going to change what was going on. 5 And -- and that the grade -- that they 6 hadn't accomplished that much. 7 But what they had was the -- we were 8 concerned, and -- and they may have remedied 9 it, I don't know. 10 We were concerned because the -- the 11 application said categorically that the 12 employees, the teachers would continue to have 13 their seniority and benefits with the -- with 14 the school system, which that's not what the 15 law says. 16 The law says that -- 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: They -- 18 MR. HOLLEY: -- that it's negoti-- 19 negotiatable (sic) between them, but there's 20 nothing saying that the School Board, or 21 anybody's -- the School Board has got to agree 22 to that. That's negotiable. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right. 24 MR. HOLLEY: And it's not -- 25 GOVERNOR BUSH: But it does allow it. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 195 2 does -- 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- an application -- 4 MR. HOLLEY: -- but it -- 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- in front of you -- 6 MR. HOLLEY: But it does not mean it's 7 going to happen. 8 But I -- 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, so you're -- you denied 10 the request because you don't want to give 11 benefits to -- and -- and -- to the teachers? 12 MR. HOLLEY: No. We den-- the -- the 13 reason it was denied on that basis was because 14 we didn't feel the teachers were advised of 15 that. 16 The application and the survey that was 17 sent out said that they would retain their 18 benefits and seniority categorically. It 19 doesn't say -- it didn't say anything about it 20 being negotiable. 21 And that was one of the things we were 22 concerned about. 23 But -- 24 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, they were 25 saying that they planned on negotiating for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 196 2 MR. HOLLEY: No, that's not what they said. 3 They said that they would have that. 4 But basically, we think these are good 5 reasons. We think, under this statute, that 6 the local School Board, which is a 7 constitutional body, has a duty to do what's 8 best for the pupils and students in that 9 county. 10 And if they get in a position by not being 11 able to use this facility to kindergarten, as a 12 result, they may not be able to open that 13 high school, it's certainly not going to be in 14 the best interest of the people down there. 15 They built that high school without using 16 the State funds, because the people in that 17 community wanted that high school. It was an 18 effort to -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: We need to do that more 20 often. 21 MR. HOLLEY: Well, but they -- I'm just 22 saying -- 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: We don't have enough 24 students to justify it -- 25 MR. HOLLEY: We built it, but we want -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 197 2 there so we can operate it for the community so 3 they'll have the school they wanted. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. 5 And you could -- you could just give -- you 6 could put this converted charter middle school 7 in the -- in the facility as well. 8 I mean, that -- again, the real estate 9 part -- 10 MR. HOLLEY: Well -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- of this is not as -- 12 MR. HOLLEY: Well, but if -- if the 13 application's approved the way it's submitted, 14 they -- they will be -- they will be in the 15 old -- 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. It'd have to be 17 modified. 18 MR. HOLLEY: -- in the old building. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. 20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: It'd have to 21 be modified. Yes. 22 Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: I had a -- having 24 come from a little bit of background in 25 teaching myself, and knowing some of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 198 2 there's two things -- the continuity of what I 3 see here, and -- and have seen in these test 4 scores, when you have children that are SLD, 5 and maybe some other learning potential 6 problems where they're getting specific help 7 from teachers that they feel comfortable with, 8 and are improving their scores, you take those 9 same children, put them into a general 10 classroom in a public school setting, and all 11 those scores may change drastically, and they 12 won't be going up. They're just as apt to go 13 back down without that extra help. 14 Even if -- and I understand your problem. 15 What I'm hearing you say is, ung-ugh, we've got 16 this school, and we need to make sure we're 17 going to put students in these schools, and we 18 need to find a place for these kindergarten 19 children, and here's a building we can use. I 20 understand all that. 21 But the continuity of how these children 22 are gaining in their ability to pass these 23 particular tests, and whether they would do so 24 in a general classroom has me concerned. 25 I've watched it over the years, and I've ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 199 2 They're getting -- they're getting a particular 3 type of education that is not -- and generally 4 is not offered in the general school setting. 5 And so, therefore, they are gaining right 6 now in a special setting that's pretty much cut 7 for them right now. 8 And they're used to -- even if you move -- 9 and here's my concern. 10 Even if you move this school over into the 11 high school, whether it be one wing or wherever 12 you put them, you're going to be under a school 13 principal of the facility that's going to be 14 generally a normal, or a -- I don't want to say 15 normal -- a standard operating procedure of the 16 School Board system in the regular school 17 program, they're going to be using a facility 18 that they're going to have to be particular 19 about who's in control, and how the system's 20 going to be run. 21 And then you're still going to have that 22 problem of whether these teachers are going to 23 mesh necessarily, because they may have a 24 difference of opinion on how these children 25 should be taught from the regular classroom ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 200 2 little bit different within their own group of 3 teachers. 4 So there's some things I'm concerned about 5 whether the continuity of this school -- if you 6 move them, what -- is there any guarantee that 7 they can maintain or -- or rise above where 8 they are now if they're adversarial to other 9 things going on within the new school system. 10 That's what has me concerned. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Superintendent, would 12 you like to answer that? 13 MR. YATES: Let me -- let me make a 14 personal statement here, okay? 15 I've been an educator for a number of 16 years. Not only that, I'm a school 17 psychologist, and I understand human behavior. 18 Now, when I came in to this District last 19 November, I had one objective, and that was to 20 make Walton County schools the very best that I 21 can make them. 22 I want them to excel in providing an 23 educational -- the very best educational 24 opportunity for every student. Not just the 25 kids at Bay Middle School. Every student. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 201 2 motion to do that. I made a lot of 3 reorganizational changes. I moved a lot of 4 people in different places. 5 And I can tell you now, it's been an uphill 6 fight all the way, as I'm sure most of you 7 people can -- can understand that. You've been 8 there. 9 Now, what we're going to provide those 10 children in Bay -- in that facility there is an 11 18 million dollar state of the art educational 12 institution. 13 Whatever programs -- I've got curriculum 14 people right now looking at high school 15 curriculum to include the things Ms. Stein 16 mentioned here, AP programs, IB programs, we 17 have a team studying that right now. 18 Seaside Elementary School is already 19 starting in a pre-IB. We intend to try to 20 carry that on in high school. 21 All the programs that's been mentioned here 22 will be offered in that school to middle school 23 students, including the Eden State Park 24 agreement. 25 There's no reason we can't put these kids ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 202 2 is, 15 minutes, to Eden State Park. We can do 3 that. 4 We'll not deprive them. We're not going to 5 deprive them of anything. In fact, we're going 6 to add to their educational horizon. We're 7 going to make it better for them. 8 Now, what I'm asking -- 9 Excuse me, sir. 10 Go ahead. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead. 12 TREASURER GALLAGHER: I don't want to 13 interrupt you. 14 Go ahead. 15 MR. YATES: What I'm asking here today as 16 Superintendent of these schools, is that this 17 Board support us in allowing us to keep on with 18 our improvements toward doing exactly what I've 19 said, to provide an excellent educational 20 opportunity for kids. 21 Now, that's my objective. 22 Now, wherever you decide, I'll still do 23 that. Because I won't quit. I'll give up -- 24 I mean, I won't give up. 25 But I ask you to consider where we're ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 203 2 of anything, faculty or students. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: My question is: Did 5 you consider taking that wing of the 6 high school, and using that for the 7 kindergarten? 8 MR. YATES: That was approached -- somebody 9 did approach us with that. 10 But that's totally unsatisfactory, because 11 the -- it's built for bigger kids, you know, 12 and you've got a lot of smaller kids here. And 13 you can't -- you can't do that really. 14 Now, let me add another point about this. 15 If we grow, and I -- I think we're going to 16 grow, I don't think it's going to be next 17 year -- 18 TREASURER GALLAGHER: You're growing. 19 MR. YATES: -- in maybe two or three years, 20 we'll -- we may be looking at -- 21 TREASURER GALLAGHER: South Walton is a big 22 growing -- 23 MR. YATES: -- a bigger mid-- 24 middle school. 25 Well, we've already purchased 9 acres of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 204 2 the high school sits on now for the purpose of 3 constructing a brand new state of the art 4 middle school. 5 That's in our plans. We intend to do that. 6 To me, that's progress. 7 So again, I emphasize to you, we're not 8 taking anything away from anybody. We're 9 simply adding to what we can offer these -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner. 11 MR. YATES: -- children. 12 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Thank you, Governor. 13 I guess part of the teaching system -- 14 and -- and everybody agrees, the smaller the 15 classroom size, the better the -- a teacher has 16 to get to the most students in that classroom. 17 I mean, that's -- that's just a pure fact. 18 What is the average classroom size for your 19 standard middle school classrooms -- 20 MR. YATES: Okay. Let me give it to you 21 District-wide, okay? 22 We're -- we're a small District, you 23 realize that. 24 Our average pupil-teacher ratio is about 25 19 to 1. That's -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 205 2 MR. YATES: -- countywide. It's very 3 small. 4 We have some -- some classes with 13 kids 5 in them. And you think we're not sweating over 6 those? 7 Now, we have some with 25 in them, but very 8 few. 9 So most of our classrooms are in that 10 range, very low. And I -- that's -- that's 11 just not a problem at all. 12 Now, whether we can keep it that way, 13 you -- the Governor's probably in a better 14 position to answer this than I am. 15 But when -- with the budget cuts the way 16 they are, you can expect to see class sizes go 17 up. They're going to have to. Because we 18 can't afford them anymore. 19 MR. HOLLEY: One thing that I -- I would 20 like to mention also is that -- the reason 21 that -- that Bay Middle School was opened 22 temporarily as a middle school, as I -- I think 23 I'd said this, they didn't want to go across -- 24 on the bus across the bay to go to Freeport 25 Middle School. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 206 2 and there are students south of that bay that 3 don't want to attend the charter school, and -- 4 and they can't get in Seaside because it's 5 already got a waiting list, they're going to 6 have to -- they're going to have to be bused 7 across the bay, or -- or somewhere to go to 8 a -- go to a middle school, because there's not 9 one down there. 10 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Let me ask another 11 question now. 12 You can't put the kindergarten kids in the 13 wing of the high school because it's made for 14 bigger kids. 15 Well, how many -- what kind of retrofitting 16 do you have to do in the Bay Middle School to 17 handle these elementary -- or these 18 kindergarten? 19 MR. YATES: There'll be some that we have 20 to do. But we're looking to get it at a cost 21 factor. 22 See, we can do that so much easier than we 23 can go out -- which, if we lose this -- this 24 charter, if we lose that, we will have to build 25 on to Butler Elementary School. And that is a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 207 2 So we could go in and retrofit Bay Middle 3 School, which is ideal. It used to be an 4 elementary school, as a matter of fact. That's 5 what it was always before. 6 So we can do that at very less cost than 7 what it would cost us to go and build on to 8 Butler, and make that another large school. 9 They're at six hundred and twenty-something 10 students right now. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other -- any other 12 comments you'd like to make? 13 Pretty well covered it -- 14 MR. HOLLEY: Thank you, Governor. 15 MR. YATES: Appreciate you -- appreciate 16 you -- 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Governor -- 18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 19 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- if -- if the Board 20 here wouldn't mind, I would like -- we have 21 some students and parents that have come a long 22 way, they've been very patient and quiet. 23 And if a couple of them would just maybe 24 like to say something, I'd -- I'd like to offer 25 that opportunity -- keep it in mind. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 208 2 may. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Come on up. 4 TREASURER GALLAGHER: A parent -- 5 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: -- students are 6 welcome -- 7 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- teacher, student. 8 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: -- to go before me, if 9 you'd like. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please come -- come forth. 11 Little guy's asleep. 12 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, I knew we were 13 sort of a calming effect, Governor. I -- 14 Some of the people from -- 15 MR. YATES: Governor, I -- 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- don't think so. 17 But -- 18 MR. YATES: -- would you excuse me. 19 I neglected to mention that Mr. Barnhill, a 20 School Board member, would like also to make a 21 short few words. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mr. Barnhill, do you want 23 to come do it right now? 24 MR. BARNHILL: It looks like she's in a 25 mode there. She might -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 209 2 It's okay. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Go ahead. Go ahead. 4 You're -- 5 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: Me? 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. 7 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Moms first. 9 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: Thank you very much. 10 This is my son, Carl. And he's sick today, 11 so I'm sorry that he's in my arms. 12 But I guess this makes the point that I'm a 13 working mother. I have three kids. And I'm a 14 Leon County resident because of my career 15 choices. 16 However, I've been going to the 17 south Walton area for thirty-two of my 18 thirty-nine years on this earth, and I 19 absolutely adore it. It's a big part of my 20 life and my -- excuse me -- my entire family's 21 life. 22 I used to since -- just spend summers 23 there, and now I spend weekends there. 24 And I am unique in the situation in that my 25 eldest daughter, Natasha, who's right there, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 210 2 Leon County middle school. It was horrific. 3 Due to the timing of the situation, I 4 didn't get a lot of help in the process. I 5 admit that part of that was my fault. I wasn't 6 educated myself to what I could do for her 7 after the school year had already started. 8 So I called her father, who luckily runs a 9 business over in the Sea Grove Beach area. We 10 always make decisions like this together. 11 And he said, you know, as luck would have 12 it, you need to come visit a school over here. 13 You're just -- you're not going to believe what 14 you experience. And it's going to be hard to 15 measure it against anything else. 16 So come on over, take a look at the school. 17 I realize the difficulty in letting your eldest 18 move away. But, you know, I'm a parent, too, 19 and I think you'll love what you see. 20 Well, I'd say that was an understatement 21 really. I was invited to audit a class, I was 22 invited to a complete two-day tour of the 23 school, thanks to Janet Stein and all of her 24 fine educators. 25 I knew that I had to make a very difficult ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 211 2 because I'm not an educator myself. And I'm 3 not a politician, and I'm not an accountant, 4 and I'm not a psychologist. I'm a mother, in a 5 different profession. 6 And so I had to put a lot of trust into 7 these educators. And they blew me away. What 8 I saw going on in each classroom environment 9 was above anything that I had ever witnessed 10 before. 11 And I do have three kids, let me repeat 12 that. So I've been in a few school systems. 13 I've spoken in school systems on different 14 issues. So, yeah, I've witnessed the classroom 15 environment. 16 These were very special. If you want to 17 talk about the difference between it being a 18 school and it being -- rising above your 19 typical school, you know, you can walk into any 20 school and look at the walls and look at the 21 chalkboards and look at the speaker system and 22 look at the kids. 23 You can walk into an institution of 24 learning, and there's a marked difference. 25 There's optimism in the eyes of the children. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 212 2 daughter, as well as all of her friends. 3 These boys and girls are incredibly gifted. 4 And part of that is because they have been 5 taught to believe in themselves. That's not 6 always the case. 7 Yes, parents take a responsibility in that. 8 But, you know, we rely on the educators to make 9 sure that they're forming a basis of faith and 10 confidence in each and every student that walks 11 in their doors. They did that in Bay Middle 12 School. 13 I don't want to brag too much, but my 14 daughter's incredible. And she has achieved 15 every goal that's been put in front of her. 16 Now she's ready to go beyond those goals. 17 That's all a parent can ask for, honestly. 18 Mrs. Stein, I can tell you, is the only one 19 with a little ratio problem, because all of the 20 other students are incredible math students. 21 And if I can have a daughter -- 22 Janet, I just had to say that. I'm sorry. 23 If I can have a daughter who can excel in 24 math and science, I am way, way ahead. I 25 didn't. That's why I'm in the field I'm in. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 213 2 friends are going places. And why? Because 3 they've been nurtured. They haven't been 4 thrown into a classroom where you hope that the 5 teacher's been educated enough or motivated 6 enough to get the points across. 7 That's obvious when you walk through their 8 doors. It's a smaller system. Every single 9 student is treated as an individual. And 10 they're nurtured. And they are encouraged to 11 find within themselves their strengths. Every 12 single one has done it. 13 I had the benefit of taking a long extended 14 trip with them last summer. And Mrs. Stein was 15 there for part of that trip. 16 To listen to her talk about the thrill that 17 she gets on planning a project for a classroom, 18 whether it's an educational plan, whether it's 19 a specific time sensitive project, is enormous. 20 It just reenforced my faith really. 21 And I don't know that all educators think 22 that way, in terms of getting just thrilled 23 with every anticipated project that comes up. 24 That's awesome. 25 And that's what I'm here to advocate, if I ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 214 2 much. 3 And thank you. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 5 MS. SANDRA JOHNSON: My pleasure. 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 7 Yes, sir. 8 MR. BARNHILL: Thank you, Governor, members 9 of the Cabinet. 10 What you've heard from the Bay Middle 11 School is a great compliment on the 12 Walton County school system, because these 13 gains were made under the review, the 14 cooperation with the School Board, with the 15 Superintendent, and I think that's great, that 16 all of these changes and these improvements and 17 these test scores and these special 18 improvements are -- are -- special needs 19 children were met under the -- the auspices of 20 the School Board. 21 I'd like to ask you to consider it from a 22 little different perspective. 23 And, Governor, you asked a -- a simple 24 question regarding conversion. 25 The fact is, we've got about 300 students ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 215 2 member that lives in that community. 3 I was on the PTO Board of Bay Middle 4 School. Got a little bit of my blood on that 5 school when I fell going up the stairs one day. 6 But that's immaterial at this hearing. 7 But the -- we've got 300 students, we've 8 got about half that goes to the charter school, 9 and we've got about half that goes to the 10 public middle school. 11 And there is a silent majority in 12 south Walton that don't sign petitions and 13 don't send letters, but they like that choice. 14 They like the opportunity to decide their 15 middle schoolers to go to the traditional 16 public school, wherever it might be; or to go 17 to the charter school. 18 And it's interesting, on our buses in the 19 mornings, we send -- the School District's 20 sending the buses -- when we pick up the 21 children, we drop off some of the same family 22 by the charter school, and go on up and drop 23 off some different members of the family by 24 their traditional public school. 25 It's a great opportunity. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 216 2 the -- 3 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- is the traditional 5 public school. 6 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. And Bay Middle 7 School is the traditional public school. It's 8 a great opportunity to where my community has 9 got choices. 10 Because as you know, that all students 11 don't flourish in a charter school. Some like 12 the structure that the -- sometimes traditional 13 public schools provide; and some students excel 14 better in a charter school, which we've seen. 15 And it's interesting in my community, they 16 often switch back and forth every year. 17 Sometimes they go to the 6th grade at Seaside, 18 and they'll go -- and it's an ideal 19 opportunity. 20 TREASURER GALLAGHER: And can I ask a 21 question? 22 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: How do they have a 24 choice if the charter school's full? 25 MR. BARNHILL: Because they rotate out. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 217 2 don't return from the charter school. 3 So there is some vacancies there every year 4 by virtue of -- of students not coming back. 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: But there's -- my 6 understanding, there's a waiting list there, 7 and -- and it's hard to sort of get in. 8 Is that true, or not? 9 MR. BARNHILL: I don't know how long the 10 waiting list is. 11 I know that every year that -- Seaside -- 12 I think they're servicing 90 students, that 13 they always service 90 students. That's their 14 goal, to try to keep it under 90. They 15 typically do. 16 And maybe there's some rooms for expansion. 17 The Board certainly wouldn't be opposed to 18 that. But -- 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Let me ask you something. 20 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: If -- if this traditional 22 public school didn't change a single thing, 23 just converted the charter school status, 24 wouldn't the parents that you're describing 25 that you represent and serve have the same ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 218 2 They're both public schools. I'm not quite 3 sure why you're distinguishing -- they're -- 4 they're both -- right now, there is a de-- it's 5 a deregulated school. 6 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: And the argument -- the 8 interesting -- 9 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- contradictory argument 11 was made by the Superintendent I think, which 12 is that -- that this already has the benefits 13 of deregulation -- or maybe the legal 14 counsel -- 15 MR. BARNHILL: Uh-hum. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- so it is an independent 17 public school, just as a charter school. 18 Is there -- these are both public schools, 19 they -- 20 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. Understand. 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- should have the same 22 aspects of it. 23 So if it was -- it was -- if it was to 24 convert -- I think, again, you all had to sit 25 through that last meeting that you -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 219 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- similar kind of -- there 3 was the -- the big elephant -- invisible 4 elephant in the room was property values, and 5 whose -- who gets -- who gets the upper hand. 6 Here the question is, who gets the money, 7 I think. Maybe I'm wrong. But my guess is 8 that as an independent -- a converted public 9 school, the law says that they get, what, 10 95 percent of the -- 11 MR. BARNHILL: Yes, sir. 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the money? 13 And right now my guess is, unless y'all are 14 incredibly efficient with -- and you are -- 15 want you to be emulated around the rest of the 16 state. 17 If the schools are getting 95 percent of 18 the FTE money right now, then I don't even know 19 what the issue would be. But I -- is it money 20 that -- that drives part of this? 21 MR. BARNHILL: No, sir. I believe there's 22 a -- there's a lot of -- of factors. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: So if they stayed as a 24 deregulated school, you'd give them 95 percent 25 of the FTE amount? ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 220 2 indicate that it's costing about $5600 per 3 student for the students at Bay Middle School. 4 So we -- we'd get -- you know, we would -- 5 I believe that's correct, isn't it? 6 Something in that neighborhood. 7 So we're -- it's not an issue -- it's 8 not -- 9 TREASURER GALLAGHER: How much are you 10 paying Seaside, so that I can compare. 11 MR. BARNHILL: They get just the 95 percent 12 of the FTE. 13 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well -- well, how 14 much is that? 15 MR. BARNHILL: I don't know right off -- 16 what is it, approximately $3500 per student, 17 something like that. 18 TREASURER GALLAGHER: How much? 19 MR. BARNHILL: I believe it's approximately 20 $3500 per student. 21 TREASURER GALLAGHER: So if this converts 22 then, you'd save a bunch of money. 23 MR. BARNHILL: No. You know, there's -- 24 there's -- y'all have heard debates before you 25 time and time again about the -- you know, the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 221 2 whatever. 3 But I wanted to point out that -- that 4 every -- we've got a choice in south Walton. 5 And as you said, Governor, pointed out 6 so -- so wisely, the fact that no matter where 7 the Bay Middle School students are, they still 8 have that choice of conversion, whether they 9 move to the high school, or move to the new -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can we get a -- 11 MR. BARNHILL: -- new middle -- 12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Superintendent, can you 13 come and explain the -- what -- what the money 14 side of this is? 15 It might bring some closure to it. 16 Maybe I'm wrong, but I -- 17 MR. YATES: I don't have the -- I don't 18 have the exact figure for Seaside, but I do 19 have it for the other middle schools that 20 compare to Bay Middle School. 21 And this year, Freeport Middle School, 22 which is the one he mentioned being across the 23 bay -- 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 25 MR. YATES: -- is forty-seven thirty-seven ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 222 2 Walton Middle School is 5,544. 3 GOVERNOR BUSH: And if it's converted, what 4 would it be? To get -- 5 MR. YATES: We are -- 6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to 7 Commissioner Gallagher's point? 8 MR. YATES: We would then have to give them 9 95 percent of the -- 10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Of what -- 11 MR. YATES: -- FTE, see. 12 Of whatever their student enrollment is. 13 Because -- and we don't know -- 14 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Ninety-five percent 15 of -- 16 MR. YATES: -- exactly what -- 17 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- what number is 18 your average student costing in Franklin Coun-- 19 or in Walton County? 20 MR. YATES: The average number? 21 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Well, isn't that what 22 you have to give them 95 percent of? 23 MR. YATES: No. I just gave it -- yeah. I 24 just gave it to you for -- for these particular 25 schools -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 223 2 concerned -- 3 MR. YATES: -- if you all'd like to 4 compare. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- you'd have to pay 6 95 percent of 6,000? 7 MR. YATES: No, sir. We're not concerned 8 about that. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's the question. 10 MR. YATES: My concern -- 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I mean, it's not like 12 you're saving money at -- 13 MR. YATES: Well -- you've got -- you can't 14 get rid of economics. I think we all ought to 15 agree with that. Certainly that's a factor. 16 But let me tell you that what we're trying 17 to do, and I emphasize this again, is update 18 our educational facility. 19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure. I -- 20 MR. YATES: And that's what we're -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- we're ask -- 22 MR. YATES: -- trying to do. 23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- asking the questions to 24 try to understand. I'm not trying to -- 25 MR. YATES: Sure. I understand that. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 224 2 the -- if the law says -- and which, by the 3 way, probably the reason why there's a whole 4 lot -- not a whole lot of converted public 5 schools, the law says that conversion of public 6 schools, schools that are converted to 7 traditional public schools, are to receive 8 I think up to 95 percent of FTE. 9 And 95 percent is far more than what a 10 traditional school gets, because y'all have 11 overhead. It may not be much in 12 Walton County -- 13 MR. YATES: Uh-hum. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- under your able 15 leadership -- leadership -- 16 MR. YATES: Thank you. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- but that's -- most 18 people say it's, you know, 60/40 split in terms 19 of the school -- or direct classroom 20 instruction, and -- and the overhead that 21 schools have, compared to off premises costs 22 related to this. 23 MR. YATES: Uh-hum. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Normally that's the reason 25 why there's not a lot of conversions, because ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 225 2 want to give that much more money. 3 But in your case, you're saying that 4 they're already getting -- they're getting more 5 money than they would if -- and I want you to 6 correct me if I'm wrong -- they're getting more 7 money now than they would if they converted. 8 MR. YATES: Yes, sir, there -- they are. 9 Because last year, there were about fifty 10 something thousand dollars that we had to 11 augment. 12 I might point out to you also that Seaside 13 is also running a deficit as well. 14 So it is a question of -- of money and what 15 you get. 16 TREASURER GALLAGHER: I think that there's 17 also a problem is if you don't have enough 18 students' FTEs in this brand new high school, 19 you've got a problem in how you afford an 20 opening. 21 MR. YATES: You're right. That -- that is 22 a factor, that's why we'd like to have the 23 student count up as high as we can get it. 24 And I have to tell you that we're not just 25 looking at Bay. We're looking at some other ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 226 2 up. 3 We have a number of kids who -- who go out 4 of the county now on waivers. They go to -- 5 in fact, there's where we'd -- we'd lose some 6 of the children that would not want to go to a 7 charter school, we lose them to Destin Middle, 8 which is in Okaloosa County, you see. 9 And they -- 10 TREASURER GALLAGHER: But you have some 11 high school students that you might get back -- 12 MR. YATES: We have some -- 13 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- across -- 14 MR. YATES: -- we'll get back -- 15 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- the county. 16 MR. YATES: -- yes, sir. 17 In fact, we're actively talking along those 18 lines, trying to make it -- 19 TREASURER GALLAGHER: You might be able to 20 get some of those other counties coming over to 21 your high school. 22 MR. YATES: Well, we're trying that, too. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: -- in school -- 24 MR. YATES: We're not -- we're looking 25 under every -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 227 2 COURT REPORTER GILBERT: One at a time. 3 MR. YATES: Oh. Excuse me. 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, ma'am. 5 MR. YATES: We're looking -- 6 TREASURER GALLAGHER: She gets pretty 7 cranky about 4 hours of doing this. 8 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't blame her. 9 TREASURER GALLAGHER: And I don't blame 10 her. 11 GOVERNOR BUSH: The only one that hasn't 12 had a break. 13 MR. YATES: We're looking under every stone 14 for students. 15 MR. BARNHILL: Thank you. 16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 17 Any other discussion? 18 TREASURER GALLAGHER: How about -- do we 19 have a student who might want to say something? 20 Well, maybe we do have one. Two, three -- 21 GOVERNOR BUSH: If we can -- 22 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: They're going just 23 for moral support. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: For support? 25 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: Right. Just for the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 228 2 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Got a little nervous 3 on -- 4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 5 TREASURER GALLAGHER: You've got one 6 spokesman, right? 7 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: Right. 8 MS. YOURICK: Yeah. 9 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Great. 10 MS. YOURICK: I attended Bay Middle School 11 from the day the doors opened as a 6th grader, 12 up until this past school year. 13 I enjoyed three wonderful years at Bay, and 14 I feel its presence in Walton County is an 15 asset to the community. 16 Since its opening in 1938, I have had 17 numerous family members pass through its doors 18 as students. 19 The bond between the community members and 20 the school faculty and the students is just 21 awesome in that community. And the gap between 22 adolescents and adulthood is bridged. 23 I mean, they just -- when they're able to 24 come into the classroom and just incorporate 25 themselves with the students, I think that's ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 229 2 I was blessed with an excellent education 3 from Bay, and I will always treasure my 4 memories of the school. The learning 5 experience I received was absolutely amazing. 6 This school year I'm attending Niceville 7 High School, because my parents and I moved to 8 the other county for job reasons, a school that 9 is State-renowned for its priority in 10 education. 11 As I moved into a new school with new 12 people and new standards, I felt prepared for 13 my new educational demands. I never doubted my 14 ability to rise to any academic challenge that 15 I might face. 16 The intimacy of Bay Middle School is one of 17 its most prominent and wonderful traits. 18 Students feel as though they are part of a 19 family, students have a voice in what occurs in 20 the school, and that itself makes it all the 21 more precious. 22 Upon the opening of the school, we were 23 without a school mascot. The students came 24 together and devised campaigns, made signs, and 25 delivered speeches. Votes were cast, and we ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 230 2 We, the students, made the decision that 3 will forever be a part of the school. And that 4 just happens to be one of the examples that -- 5 how our voice is heard in the school. 6 Bay Middle School is unique in its 7 location, and has been -- the location has been 8 utilized to the fullest benefits. If kept open 9 by the State, the surrounding community could 10 become even more a part of this school. 11 Even though I can no longer attend Bay as a 12 student, I want to keep it open for the future 13 generations of students to enjoy. 14 GOVERNOR BUSH: What was the name of the 15 mascot? 16 MS. YOURICK: The Bay Panthers. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's pretty good. 18 Well, thank you. 19 MS. YOURICK: You're welcome. 20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much. 21 MS. YOURICK: Thank you. 22 GOVERNOR BUSH: That was a great speech. 23 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Governor? 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Is this an appropriate ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 231 2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, it is. 3 COMMISSIONER CRIST: I would then move that 4 we remand the application back to the 5 School Board for approval of a conversion 6 charter. 7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second? 8 COMMISSIONER BRONSON: Second. 9 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a 10 second. 11 All in favor of the motion, say aye. 12 THE CABINET: Aye. 13 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed? 14 Motion passes. 15 Remember all this -- all this does, until 16 the law is changed -- and it may -- may never 17 be. 18 But what it does is allows you to have a 19 second chance at discussing this at the 20 School District. Ultimately they have -- they 21 have the -- 22 MS. BEVERLY JOHNSON: This validates -- 23 this is a very long time. 24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, it does that, too. 25 You all have done great. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 232 2 there, and parents want to have their kids 3 there. That's a -- not every place can say 4 that. 5 So -- 6 Ultimately though, you have to come to 7 terms with the School District. 8 Thank you all. 9 Thanks for coming. 10 Item 3. 11 MR. PIERSON: Items 3 through 9 are 12 appointments to Community College Boards of 13 Trustees. 14 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Motion on approval 15 for 3 through 9. 16 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Second. 17 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's moved and seconded. 18 Without objection, Items 3 through 9 are 19 approved. 20 MR. PIERSON: Items 10 through 14 are 21 reappointments to Community College Boards of 22 Trustees. 23 TREASURER GALLAGHER: Move Item 10 through 24 14. 25 COMMISSIONER CRIST: Second. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 233 2 through 14 are moved and seconded. 3 Without objection, they're approved. 4 MR. PIERSON: Thank you. 5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. 6 (The State Board of Education Agenda was 7 concluded.) 8 * * * 9 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at 10 1:05 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 234 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 87 through 233 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 9TH day of NOVEMBER, 2001. 18 19 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. |
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