|
T H E C A B I N E T
S T A T E O F F L O R I D A
Representing:
GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS TO THE
NONMANDATORY LAND RECLAMATION COMMITTEE
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND
The above agencies came to be heard before
THE FLORIDA CABINET, Honorable Governor Bush
presiding, in the Cabinet Meeting Room, LL-03,
The Capitol, Tallahassee, Florida, on Tuesday,
October 24, 2000, commencing at approximately
9:19 a.m.
Reported by:
LAURIE L. GILBERT
Registered Professional Reporter
Certified Court Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
100 SALEM COURT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
850/878-2221
2
APPEARANCES:
Representing the Florida Cabinet:
JEB BUSH
Governor
BOB CRAWFORD
Commissioner of Agriculture
BOB MILLIGAN
Comptroller
KATHERINE HARRIS
Secretary of State
BOB BUTTERWORTH
Attorney General
BILL NELSON
Treasurer
TOM GALLAGHER
Commissioner of Education
* * *
3
October 24, 2000
I N D E X
ITEM ACTION PAGE
GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS TO THE
NONMANDATORY LAND RECLAMATION COMMITTEE:
Approved 5
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION:
(Presented by Tom Herndon,
Executive Director)
1 Approved 7
2 Approved 8
3 Approved 9
4 Approved 10
5 Approved 11
6 For Information Only 11
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE:
(Presented by J. Timothy "Tim" Tinsley,
Manager of Bond Programs)
1 Approved 12
2 Approved 19
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION:
(Presented by Wayne V. Pierson,
Deputy Commissioner)
1 Approved 20
2 Approved 21
3 Approved 22
4 Approved 22
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
4
October 24, 2000
I N D E X
ITEM ACTION PAGE
BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE
INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT
TRUST FUND:
(Presented by David B. Struhs,
Secretary)
1 Approved 23
2 Withdrawn 23
Substitute 3 Deferred 25
4 Approved 29
Substitute 5 Approved 96
6 Approved 102
Substitute 7 Denied 103
8 Denied 103
9 Deferred 103
Substitute 10 Approved 106
Substitute 11 Deferred 106
Substitute 12 Withdrawn 106
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 108
* * *
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS 5
October 24, 2000
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (The agenda items commenced at 9:29 a.m.)
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Struhs.
4 MR. STRUHS: Good morning.
5 Governor, you and the Cabinet this morning
6 are being asked to confirm your appointments to
7 the Nonmandatory Land Reclamation Committee.
8 The candidates that you have selected are
9 Lisa Backman from Polk County; Angela Miller
10 from Hamilton County, and Karen Guffey from
11 Polk County.
12 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I move the
13 appointments.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: All in favor, say aye.
18 THE CABINET: Aye.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
20 Very good.
21 MR. STRUHS: Thank you.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: I like the gender balance.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Very good -- good
24 appointments.
25 I'm not sure it's balanced.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS 6
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: That is balanced, as far as
2 I'm concerned.
3 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay. Good. Now
4 we know the percentage. 100 percent.
5 (The Governor's Appointments to the
6 Nonmandatory Land Reclamation Committee Agenda
7 was concluded.)
8 * * *
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 7
October 24, 2000
1 (Discussion off the record.)
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: The next Cabinet meeting
3 will be Tuesday, November 16th.
4 And then at that time, General Butterworth
5 and I will pay off our bets.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That's
7 right.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: United Way?
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: No. There's an election
10 between now and --
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Oh, oh. Oh. That.
12 Is an election coming up?
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: You guys are living --
14 living calmly. The rest -- two of us here
15 are -- have two jobs right now.
16 State Board of Administration.
17 MR. HERNDON: Good morning, Governor,
18 members of the Board.
19 Item Number 1 is approval of the minutes of
20 the meeting held October 10th.
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move the minutes.
22 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
24 Without objection, it's approved.
25 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 2 is a resolution
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 8
October 24, 2000
1 of the State Board of Administration approving
2 the fiscal sufficiency of an aggregate amount
3 not exceeding 125 million dollar, State of
4 Florida, Department of Transportation turnpike
5 Revenue Bond, Series 2000.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move Item 2.
7 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 3 is a resolution
11 of the State Board of Administration rescinding
12 the prior approval of fiscal determination of
13 an amount not exceeding eight million
14 eight hundred and sixteen thousand five hundred
15 dollar tax exempt, and three million
16 nine hundred and one thousand dollar taxable
17 Florida Housing Finance Corporation Housing
18 Revenue Bonds, Series 2000, for the
19 Grande Pointe Apartments; and approving the
20 fiscal determination of an amount not exceeding
21 eight million eight hundred and sixteen
22 thousand five hundred dollar tax exempt, and
23 four million one hundred and seventy-three
24 thousand dollar taxable, Florida Housing
25 Finance Corporation, Housing Revenue Bonds,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 9
October 24, 2000
1 2000 Series, also for the Grande Pointe
2 Apartments.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Boy, you did that without
4 breathing.
5 That's pretty impressive.
6 Is there a motion?
7 TREASURER NELSON: I move it.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move it.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second?
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
11 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
12 Oh, I'm sorry. You asked --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know.
14 You both moved it. Can one of you second
15 it?
16 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I'll second it.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, sir.
18 Moved and seconded.
19 Without objection, it's approved.
20 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I'll remove
21 my second.
22 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 4 is approval of
23 a fiscal determination of an amount not
24 exceeding ten million three hundred and
25 sixty-five thousand dollar tax exempt, and
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 10
October 24, 2000
1 four million seven hundred and eighty thousand
2 dollar taxable, Florida Housing Finance
3 Corporation Housing Revenue Bonds for the
4 Westwood Apartments in Lee County, Florida.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: And I'll move
6 Item 4.
7 TREASURER NELSON: And I second it.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. HERNDON: Item Number 5 is the
11 Investment Policy Statement that we've had
12 quite a bit of discussion about previously, as
13 you recall, at the Cabinet meeting in
14 September 26th in Panama City.
15 Since that time, we had a hearing on
16 October 13th, during which time we took quite a
17 bit of testimony. We also had several parties
18 who filed written comments, all of which have
19 been provided to your offices.
20 At this time, we are not recommending any
21 revisions to the Investment Policy Statement,
22 and are requesting your approval to file the
23 proposed rule for notice.
24 We will be back before you again in
25 December. We will have an additional public
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF ADMINISTRATION 11
October 24, 2000
1 workshop between now and then. We also have --
2 excuse me -- a rule hearing.
3 We also have a public workshop scheduled
4 for next Monday, at which time we'll take
5 additional public comment and so forth.
6 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: I -- I move the
7 filing for notice.
8 TREASURER NELSON: And second it.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
10 Without objection, it's approved.
11 MR. HERNDON: And Item Number 6 is the
12 report by the Executive Director, which is
13 submitted for information for the month of
14 August, which is the fund activity report.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do we need a motion?
16 Nope.
17 MR. HERNDON: Thank you very much.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Tom.
19 (The State Board of Administration Agenda
20 was concluded.)
21 * * *
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 12
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Division of Bond Finance.
2 MR. TINSLEY: Good morning.
3 Item Number 1 is approval of the minutes of
4 the October 10th meeting.
5 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Approve the minutes.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 MR. TINSLEY: Item Number 2 is adoption of
10 a resolution authorizing the competitive sale
11 not exceeding 125 million dollars in turnpike
12 revenue bonds.
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I -- can I get an
16 understanding of this?
17 The -- these bonds were issued by a
18 non-State authority.
19 MR. TINSLEY: No, sir. They were issued by
20 the Division of Bond Finance back in the
21 mid-'80s.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: They were.
23 MR. TINSLEY: Yes.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: So there was an
25 understanding from the beginning that the State
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 13
October 24, 2000
1 in these types of --
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- these -- these -- the --
4 the -- the Sawgrass Expressway was going to be
5 a State obligation?
6 MR. TINSLEY: Yes, sir.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But wait a minute.
8 But it's not full faith and credit, the State
9 behind these bonds.
10 MR. TINSLEY: Oh, they -- yes, sir. They
11 are full faith and credit. Issued in 1984,
12 it's full faith and credit bonds issued by the
13 Division of Bond Finance. And -- and --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: I thought we were bailing
15 out Broward County. Isn't that right?
16 I just wanted to have a discussion about
17 this about -- is that wrong?
18 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No. I -- I did some
19 checking on it. And I'm comfortable that we're
20 not bailing them out. In fact, we're helping
21 ourselves in terms of revenue flow.
22 We would lose considerable revenue if we
23 didn't do this. I don't remember the exact
24 numbers, but it's something like 3 million to
25 28 million, or something.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 14
October 24, 2000
1 Tim?
2 MR. TINSLEY: Right.
3 The -- there'll be a refunding aspect of
4 this, which will -- right now, the numbers show
5 about two-and-a-half million dollar savings,
6 and it --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm comfortable with the
8 financial decision as it relates to where we
9 are now. I'm -- I am just -- this is the first
10 time I believe that I've been Governor and this
11 has come up.
12 And I'm curious to know what -- if we are
13 not -- were we doing the underwriting of the
14 Sawgrass Expressway to begin with?
15 MR. TINSLEY: Yes, sir. We did.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: And we -- we had the full
17 faith and credit to begin with.
18 MR. TINSLEY: Yes.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: So when -- when the revenue
20 estimates did not reach the estimates, we did
21 not have to -- I mean, we were -- we were
22 obligated, and we knew we were obligated?
23 MR. TINSLEY: That's correct.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Boy, that's different than
25 what I thought.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 15
October 24, 2000
1 How -- how about the bridge in Panama City?
2 I mean, in --
3 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That's not --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Pensacola?
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- Panama City.
6 That's a different problem.
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Pensacola.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Bo's bridge.
9 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: That is a different
10 problem, and -- and that issue came up in the
11 discussions also. And we may see that on the
12 horizon.
13 But it won't be handled like this, I don't
14 believe.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Were -- was that a full
16 faith and credit --
17 MR. TINSLEY: No.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- obligation?
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: No, they were not.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. So it's different in
21 that regard.
22 MR. TINSLEY: Not -- those are not bonds of
23 the State.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay. I just want to be
25 sure that -- and I know the General is vigilant
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 16
October 24, 2000
1 on these matters, and I appreciate that.
2 I just want to be sure that when we --
3 if -- if we accept risk, that -- that we do the
4 underwriting, you know, that we -- that we're
5 not just kind of --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me ask a
7 question here.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Please.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: When this -- when
10 this bond -- when this road was first built,
11 there was a Broward County turnpike sort of
12 association, right?
13 MR. TINSLEY: Expressway Authority,
14 correct.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Expressway
16 Authority.
17 And they issued the original bonds for
18 this?
19 MR. TINSLEY: No. We issued the bonds in
20 their behalf, the State did.
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We issued them in
22 their behalf --
23 MR. TINSLEY: That's correct.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- but without our
25 full faith and credit behind them. It was a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 17
October 24, 2000
1 revenue bond based on the revenue of that road.
2 MR. TINSLEY: No. We had -- the revenue of
3 the road was pledged, as well as
4 Broward County's gas tax. But the State's full
5 faith and credit was behind the bonds.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. I had that
7 same impression the Governor did, I guess.
8 I --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Was Broward County in
10 the -- in the mix, or were -- we -- the full
11 faith and credit was right after the tolls?
12 MR. TINSLEY: Full faith and credit comes
13 after the tolls, and after Broward County's --
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER:
15 Broward County's --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: There we go. Now we're --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's it.
18 They're supposed to be putting their money --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- in it.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
22 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Exactly.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Now I'm -- that's what I
24 remembered.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: There you go.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 18
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: So was -- there was a
2 general obligation by Broward County, and
3 they've come to us in the past, and -- and we
4 have -- we've taken them off the hook.
5 MR. TINSLEY: That's correct.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They did -- they
7 are not putting up the money they agreed to put
8 up when these bonds were issued. That's the
9 issue that --
10 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: However, it's to our
11 advantage, based on the information I have from
12 the Department of Transportation, and from Tim,
13 this is to our advantage --
14 MR. TINSLEY: Yes, sir.
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: -- to execute this
16 program.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, the -- the -- the
18 dirty deed was done not with this one --
19 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Absol--
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- it was done in --
21 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Absolutely.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
23 MR. TINSLEY: Right.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: If that's a technical term
25 used in the --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
DIVISION OF BOND FINANCE 19
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The dirty deed.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- bond business.
3 MR. TINSLEY: We know what you mean.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
5 Well, there's a motion and a second.
6 Any more discussion?
7 Without objection, it's approved.
8 Thank you.
9 (The Division of Bond Finance Agenda was
10 concluded.)
11 * * *
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 20
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Where are we?
2 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: State Board.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: State Board of Education.
4 MR. PIERSON: Item 1 is minutes of the
5 July 25th and September 12th meetings.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. PIERSON: Item 2 is a Board of Regents
11 rule, proposed revised Rule 6C-6.002, Entering
12 Freshmen.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
15 TREASURER NELSON: Governor --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes.
17 TREASURER NELSON: -- I just want to make
18 a -- a statement for the record.
19 I support the amendments being recommended
20 in this rule, which clarifies the types of
21 elective courses students must take for
22 university admission.
23 However, I want to state for the record
24 that I'm still opposed to the removal of
25 affirmative action from the admissions process.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 21
October 24, 2000
1 And that's a -- a decision that we made
2 last year, but that's in the context of this
3 rule, and I just wanted to clarify that.
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, I
5 join those comments.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, as -- as
8 y'all know, that -- this rule is what's
9 required for students to take to get in, has
10 absolutely nothing to do with any kind of race
11 based or non-race based admissions.
12 With that, I'll move the rule.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
15 second.
16 Any more discussion?
17 I'm going to take a pass.
18 Without objection, other than the two
19 comments, the rule is approved.
20 MR. PIERSON: Item 3 is a student
21 appointment to the Board of Regents:
22 Natalie M. Copeland, her term ending
23 September 1st, 2001.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
25 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION 22
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
2 Without objection, it's approved.
3 MR. PIERSON: Item 4, student appointment
4 to the Postsecondary Education Planning
5 Commission: Cornelia S. James, her term ending
6 August 31st, 2001.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion.
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
11 Without objection, it's approved.
12 Thank you.
13 (The State Board of Education Agenda was
14 concluded.)
15 * * *
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 23
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Board of Trustees.
2 MR. STRUHS: Good morning.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
4 MR. STRUHS: Item 1 is acceptance of the
5 minutes.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on minutes.
7 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
9 Without objection, it's approved.
10 MR. STRUHS: Item 2 is withdrawn.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Okay. Motion to
12 withdraw.
13 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
14 MR. STRUHS: Item 3, we're seeking your
15 approval for the 2000 CARL Interim Report and
16 Priority List.
17 I'd be happy to summarize that for you,
18 if -- if you're interested.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could you, please?
20 MR. STRUHS: Sure.
21 Since the Acquisition and Restoration
22 Council, which was formed when the
23 Florida Forever was first formed, it has met
24 five times.
25 During that course of the last several
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 24
October 24, 2000
1 months, they've added one project to the
2 CARL list, they have approved amendments to
3 13 projects on the CARL list, and they've also
4 received a request from two different land
5 owners in one of the CARL projects, the
6 Belle Meade project, to remove their property
7 from the project boundaries.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any -- is there a motion?
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Motion.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
12 Any discussion?
13 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Just a quick
14 question, Governor.
15 As I understand it, David, we can -- if
16 those properties that are being removed were to
17 become available, we could acquire them in some
18 form, if we really desire them as part of the
19 CARL project?
20 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir. There's -- there's
21 a number of ways in which they could be
22 acquired in the future. Obviously the land
23 owners could change their mind --
24 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Sure.
25 MR. STRUHS: -- and then -- and be asked to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 25
October 24, 2000
1 be put back into the -- into the project
2 boundary.
3 The other option, of course, is for us
4 to -- in the event that there is a -- a
5 particular opportunity to bring it to the
6 Cabinet, and use some of our expedited rules to
7 move on it in -- in -- in that fashion.
8 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay. So we're not
9 losing the -- the opportunity if it were to
10 become available.
11 MR. STRUHS: That's -- that's correct.
12 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Okay.
13 MR. STRUHS: These -- these owners are --
14 are simply exercising their -- their --
15 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Yes.
16 MR. STRUHS: -- legal rights under the law.
17 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Understand that.
18 Okay. Thanks.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Have we --
20 MR. STRUHS: There's a motion and a second.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: There is a motion and a
22 second?
23 Without objection, it's approved.
24 MR. STRUHS: Item 4, seeking your
25 acceptance of our annual Land Management Review
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 26
October 24, 2000
1 Team findings.
2 Some good work was done here, ladies and
3 gentlemen. Thirty-one plans have been
4 reviewed, covering a quarter of a million
5 acres. I actually reviewed a number of them
6 myself, and -- and they're high quality
7 products.
8 If you would like to make a motion, there
9 is one speaker on this. Marianne Gengenbach
10 from the Nature Conservancy last minute this
11 morning asked if she could step up to the
12 microphone and say just a few words about this
13 item.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
15 Is there a motion?
16 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Second.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
20 Please.
21 MS. GENGENBACH: Good morning, Governor --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
23 MS. GENGENBACH: -- members of the Cabinet.
24 Marianne Gengenbach with the
25 Nature Conservancy.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 27
October 24, 2000
1 We realize that your job here today is only
2 to accept this report, and that there's no
3 other action required at this point.
4 But the issuance of this report provides
5 the opportunity to kind of gain a snapshot of
6 what's happening with land management in the
7 state of Florida, and, therefore, it's an
8 opportunity for comment.
9 There's an awful lot of good news in this
10 report, primarily because there are an awful
11 lot of good people out in our State's land
12 managing agencies who are working very hard to
13 take care of our public lands.
14 And we have a lot to show for that,
15 including the best state park system in the
16 nation, as well as a bunch of other very
17 wonderful natural areas and recreational
18 opportunities.
19 But I want to point out that there is some
20 bad news in this report. And it's that on
21 which I want to comment.
22 That is exemplified best by the statistic
23 that about a quarter of the plans reviewed
24 showed areas that were inadequately staffed and
25 inadequately equipped.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 28
October 24, 2000
1 Now, we realize that this report is only a
2 sampling of plans on a statewide basis, but
3 that bears out the claim that's heard time and
4 time again that land management is lacking in
5 appropriate resources to get the job done.
6 It's long been a cry of citizens, and their
7 elected officials, and a valid one, that it
8 isn't enough to simply set aside and protect
9 our critical natural areas, that obviously we
10 also have to take proper care of them, restore
11 them when needed, and ensure appropriate public
12 access.
13 It's also well known that the current
14 mechanisms for funding land management are
15 anticipating a shortfall in the very near
16 future, in fact, as early as next year.
17 The coming decade, the Florida Forever
18 program will bring even greater resource needs
19 in order to ensure adequate stewardship of our
20 public lands.
21 Now, as an entity that also manages natural
22 areas, the Nature Conservancy understands very
23 well the tremendous resource needs that
24 adequate land stewardship requires.
25 Therefore, as you look in your
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 29
October 24, 2000
1 administration for ways to govern more
2 efficiently and effectively, we strongly urge
3 you to make and keep proper land management and
4 proper funding of land management a priority of
5 your administration.
6 Because we at the State have made a
7 commitment to preserve our natural areas and
8 their functions. We can't fail that commitment
9 at this point, because our economy and the very
10 air we breathe, and the water we drink depend
11 on it.
12 And so we urge your support of appropriate
13 funding for land management.
14 Thank you.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
16 Any other discussion?
17 There's a motion and second for acceptance;
18 is that right?
19 MR. STRUHS: Yes, sir.
20 Item Number 5 is an --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Without objection, it's
22 approved.
23 Thank you. Excuse me.
24 MR. STRUHS: Sorry.
25 (Secretary Harris exited the room.)
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 30
October 24, 2000
1 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 5 is -- is an
2 interesting one. You will all recall that the
3 various land management agencies have some
4 discretionary resources made available to them
5 through our land acquisition programs in which
6 they can pursue inholdings and additions to
7 existing resources that they manage.
8 Item 5 is -- is one of these examples. And
9 we're fortunate to have Dr. Allan Egbert here
10 from the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation
11 Commission to present this item regarding the
12 acquisition of Paradise Island in Lake Tohope--
13 Lake Toho.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
15 Good try.
16 MR. STRUHS: Tohopekaliga.
17 Thank you.
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Tohopekaliga.
19 Used to represent that area.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah.
21 DR. EGBERT: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
22 Governor, members of the Cabinet, thanks
23 for this opportunity to talk to you this
24 morning.
25 The reason we're here is because basically
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 31
October 24, 2000
1 Florida lakes are becoming increasingly
2 difficult to manage, and it's mainly because of
3 social reasons.
4 People tend not to like water moved out
5 from under their docks, and -- and wherever --
6 wherever that happens, we tend to get in a
7 prolonged debate. And if we don't manage the
8 lakes, they deteriorate and decline.
9 We have -- basically you're familiar with
10 the -- the Mackinson Island acquisition,
11 of course. This one here is -- is -- is
12 Paradise Island.
13 Let me just mention -- I know there are two
14 issues at least: Number one, why the island;
15 and, number two, why the expense.
16 The big difference between Paradise Island
17 and Mackinson Island is the vested property --
18 or the vested development rights on
19 Paradise Island. Plus there's a fairly viable,
20 and expensive 9-acre parcel of shoreline.
21 Governor, if it suits you, there are a
22 number of people here to speak to this issue.
23 (Secretary Harris entered the room.)
24 DR. EGBERT: I -- I would mention the names
25 first, if I could.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 32
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sure.
2 DR. EGBERT: The first is
3 Commissioner Dunnick, who is the Chairman of
4 the Osceola County Commission.
5 There are four students here from Neptune
6 Middle School of Osceola County:
7 Samantha Rigsby, Aubrey Morse, Laura Partin,
8 and Chris White.
9 I would like to have you hear just briefly
10 from the Division Director of Freshwater
11 Fisheries, Mr. Ed Moyer, who is a veteran of
12 the Kissimmee Valley. He knows the issues of
13 managing water bodies in the Kissimmee Valley,
14 and he would take just some brief time to tell
15 you why he thinks this is important.
16 And then we would conclude with
17 Mr. Greg Chelius of TPL.
18 First would be Commissioner Dunnick of
19 Osceola County.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome, Commissioner.
21 MR. DUNNICK: Governor, always good to see
22 you.
23 Cabinet members.
24 Governor, I understand why you're -- why --
25 why you have a problem with some of these --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 33
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, wait a --
2 MR. DUNNICK: -- issues.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- second now. You don't
4 know if I have a problem yet.
5 MR. DUNNICK: And -- and I hope after you
6 hear what we have --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: What's your gripe?
8 MR. DUNNICK: -- we have to say today,
9 we -- we have a very unique remedy for that --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Who are you talking to is
11 what I want to know.
12 MR. DUNNICK: Yeah. We have -- we have
13 made an investment in this chain of lakes of
14 over 50 million dollars in the last five years,
15 which is an incredible amount of money.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: The County has?
17 MR. DUNNICK: We have done -- we have done
18 the largest muck removal project in the country
19 on the Lake Kissimmee and Toho chain.
20 And, you know, these are the headwaters of
21 the Kissimmee River which we now have a half
22 billion dollar investment on restoring the
23 Kissimmee River. Kissimmee River flows on down
24 and supplies the water for our Everglades
25 restoration. And so it all ties in together.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 34
October 24, 2000
1 And so when you look at the values that
2 we're talking about by taking this island off
3 the private sect to where we at local
4 government don't have to deal with a vested PUD
5 on what this has, it has a vested PUD.
6 There's no way that I can -- there's no way
7 that I can take away the property owner's
8 rights to develop the 189 units that they're
9 vested.
10 I can -- I can maybe make them do certain
11 things, but I can't take away that right, and
12 I'm going to have to deal with them down the
13 road somewhere.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner Gallagher.
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I have a question.
16 MR. DUNNICK: Commissioner, yes, sir.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How do they get
18 those vested rights?
19 MR. DUNNICK: Well, before my time -- BC,
20 Before Chuck -- in 1985, through County
21 ordinances that they had structured,
22 Commissioner, they -- they were able to come in
23 and vest their property to what they had to
24 approve for that ran with the land.
25 And we do not have the ability to take away
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 35
October 24, 2000
1 that vestiture. The only way you can do that,
2 Commissioner, as you know, is we have to --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, let me ask you
4 something.
5 MR. DUNNICK: Yes, sir.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: You can't take away
7 development rights, but if someone was going to
8 build on an island that doesn't have an access
9 to it, what kind of mitigation would you
10 require for them to have those rights?
11 Just because they're vested, doesn't mean
12 you don't have the authority to require certain
13 things in the interest of the County.
14 MR. DUNNICK: Right, Governor.
15 We had a -- we had a 12-hour quasi-judicial
16 hearing on Mackinson Island, which you all
17 might know as Cypress Island which we
18 purchased. It's kind of like a sister island.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that the one we did --
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
21 MR. DUNNICK: Yeah.
22 And they didn't -- and they didn't follow
23 through with the County ordinance and vest what
24 they had approved BC, Before Chuck.
25 But all those issues you were talking
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 36
October 24, 2000
1 about, Governor, were addressed: How are you
2 going to get people out in an emergency, how
3 are you going to -- hov-- they were using
4 hovercrafts, they were using helicopters, they
5 were using all kind of different boats.
6 And they had addressed those two prior --
7 prior Commissions. And so when they came to
8 renew that thing, we had a 12-hour
9 quasi-judicial hearing on that thing. And it
10 went down. We turned it down.
11 And --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: You turned it down, and
13 then we bought it?
14 MR. DUNNICK: No. We turned -- we -- we
15 turned down the change that they came to us for
16 on the existing PUD they already had approved,
17 Governor.
18 Okay. They -- they wanted to change it,
19 do --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Right.
21 MR. DUNNICK: -- some different things, and
22 we said no.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
24 MR. DUNNICK: Anyway -- so in the event --
25 they ended up basically having a fire sale --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 37
October 24, 2000
1 and, you know, that's something maybe we, the
2 State and local government, need to -- we need
3 to be -- have ourselves a position where we can
4 step in and get in the front door like some
5 other people, and don't have to pay in the back
6 door.
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We've taken care
8 of that.
9 MR. DUNNICK: You know, that'd be a great
10 thing.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, yeah.
12 MR. DUNNICK: And --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: We've done --
14 MR. DUNNICK: -- you know, hindsight's
15 always 20/20.
16 But we'll get better at that, because I
17 know with you in control, we're going to get a
18 lot better in that.
19 But, Governor, I just want to tell you that
20 the people in Osceola County have partnered
21 with State officials, this Cabinet has
22 supported our endeavors. And we have done some
23 great things in cleaning up shorelines and
24 habitat that just made so much sense.
25 And if you tie this -- uniqueness of this
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 38
October 24, 2000
1 project together, we don't need to have a -- an
2 island sitting out there that local
3 government's going to have to deal with,
4 because I'll guarantee you, we're going to have
5 to come back and buy it one day.
6 Otherwise, we're probably going to stop the
7 restoration projects, because the Corps
8 probably will not permit us to draw down the
9 lakes.
10 If y'all remember the battle we just went
11 through with the fish farmers on
12 Alligator Lake, that was a heck of a process,
13 and we finally got that done.
14 And so -- I mean, we're going in the right
15 direction. We don't need to turn back. And --
16 and I would just suggest that, you know, any
17 time we've got the ability to negotiate a price
18 at less than the appraisal, you know, we're
19 going in the right direction.
20 But I can tell you, if this was -- didn't
21 have that vested PUD, we'd all be talking about
22 a different value.
23 And I'll answer any questions.
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Commissioner.
25 Let's -- let's get the -- the students
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 39
October 24, 2000
1 coming up.
2 DR. EGBERT: From Neptune Middle School,
3 first will be Samantha Rigsby.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Hey, Samantha. Welcome.
5 MS. RIGSBY: Thank you.
6 Hello. My name is Samantha Rigsby, and I'm
7 thirteen years old. I was born in
8 Osceola County, and I am here because I'm
9 concerned about the natural habitats in and
10 around Lake Tohopekaliga, especially
11 Paradise Island.
12 Paradise Island is the second largest
13 island in Lake Tohopekaliga, and I would like
14 you to keep it natural so that we may enjoy its
15 beauty.
16 Development of this island would eventually
17 harm the lake. Developers have already
18 destroyed so many of our natural resources that
19 there will be nothing left for my children. It
20 makes me sad to think about all the animals
21 that will be homeless if this is approved.
22 Environmental groups are attempting to
23 clean up Lake Tohopekaliga, but development of
24 Paradise Island will more than likely increase
25 pollution in the lake and on the island.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 40
October 24, 2000
1 This is not just a dollar and cents issue.
2 To me, there are three issues:
3 One, do we want to use up all the habitable
4 space; two, in what condition do we want to
5 leave this earth; and, three, how will future
6 generations remember us?
7 If you develop Paradise Island, it won't be
8 paradise anymore.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you. Well said.
10 DR. EGBERT: Also from the middle school,
11 Aubrey Morse.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
13 MR. MORSE: Good morning.
14 My name is Aubrey Morse, and I was born and
15 raised in Osceola County. I have spent many
16 hours relaxing and -- by fishing, swimming, and
17 boating on Lake Tohopekaliga. It is
18 world famous for fish and game. People come
19 from all over the world to enjoy the beautiful
20 lake and its peaceful islands.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: What do you catch there,
22 Aubrey?
23 MR. MORSE: Hmm?
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: What do you catch there on
25 the lake? Bass or --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 41
October 24, 2000
1 MR. MORSE: Bass and --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Mostly?
3 MR. MORSE: -- gar and stuff.
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
5 MR. MORSE: If private investors build on
6 Paradise Island, the peacefulness of the
7 natural island will be gone, along with
8 memories of a lot of people.
9 Not only that, children in the future will
10 never be able to have the experience of the
11 beautiful island natural, or the 20,000 acre
12 lake clean, because the lake will become
13 polluted, and different animals and wonderful
14 fishing will become destroyed.
15 The island would just be built up like most
16 of Osceola County already is.
17 I think there's more -- there should be
18 more to Osceola County than just development.
19 Thank you.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you, Aubrey.
21 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That'd be a
22 nice hair style for you, Governor.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Maybe Aubrey could teach me
24 how to make my hair look like that.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Boy, I'd sure like
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 42
October 24, 2000
1 to see you at the next Cabinet meeting with one
2 of those dos.
3 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yeah. That'd be great.
4 That'd be great.
5 DR. EGBERT: Ms. Laura Partin.
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That may be part of
7 the wager on the election.
8 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yeah. There you go.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Put your finger in
10 that socket back there, and --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm sorry. What's your
12 name?
13 MS. PARTIN: Laura Partin.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Laura. Welcome.
15 MS. PARTIN: My name is Laura Partin, and
16 I'm the fifth generation of one of the founding
17 families in Osceola County.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Wow.
19 MS. PARTIN: It's a privilege to grow up in
20 a farm and ranch family, and be in a wilderness
21 environment.
22 My father and grandfather have taught me to
23 love the land and take care of it. For
24 five generations, we have raised cattle, and
25 farmed the land while maintaining its natural
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 43
October 24, 2000
1 beauty.
2 Paradise Island has been used for cattle
3 grazing for years. My granddaddy and his
4 brothers remember moving cattle off the island
5 in rainy weather and having many picnics on
6 Paradise Island. If you build a housing
7 development on this island, all that will be
8 lost.
9 Just think of all the unique ways we could
10 use this island. Osceola County has the
11 fastest growing student population in the
12 state. Wouldn't it be great to be able to
13 share the country and natural beauty with all
14 these young people.
15 When we grow up, our children may not be
16 able to enjoy the type of environment that I've
17 seen my whole life. I want the sixth and
18 seventh generation of Partin children, and all
19 the other children, to know that there's more
20 than Mickey Mouse in Osceola County.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well said, Laura.
22 TREASURER NELSON: Governor, I just want to
23 say about the Partin family, that they are also
24 the founders of one of the nation's premier
25 rodeos, the Silver Spurs Rodeo --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 44
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, yeah.
2 MS. PARTIN: Yes.
3 TREASURER NELSON: -- which, when I was
4 Osceola County's congressman, I used to have
5 the privilege of riding in. I would be stuck
6 to that saddle like flypaper --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You rode --
8 TREASURER NELSON: -- afraid of the
9 embarrassment in front of 10,000 people.
10 But the -- the Partins, I remember one of
11 your great uncles, Slim Partin --
12 MS. PARTIN: Yes.
13 TREASURER NELSON: -- used to do the
14 quadrille, where they actually do a
15 square dance on horses. It was --
16 MS. PARTIN: Well, because I -- I'm
17 actually in quadrille still.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Are you?
19 TREASURER NELSON: Oh, terrific.
20 MS. PARTIN: Yes.
21 TREASURER NELSON: What is great about the
22 Silver Spurs is that it spans the generations.
23 They'll have the older generation riding in the
24 rodeo, along with the younger generation as
25 well.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 45
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's fantastic.
2 MS. PARTIN: Thank you.
3 DR. EGBERT: Mr. -- Mr. Chris White.
4 Chris.
5 MR. WHITE: Good morning.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good morning.
7 MR. WHITE: My name is Chris White, and I
8 am an eighth grader at Neptune Middle School.
9 Neptune Middle School is nationally
10 recognized as a blue ribbon school, and a
11 national service learning school. Students at
12 the school own a large partnership with
13 Osceola County, and Fish & Game to take care of
14 Makinson Island.
15 Today Osceola County is surrounded by many
16 artificial worlds and amusement parks, such as
17 Disney World and Sea World.
18 Where is there a chance for kids and adults
19 to see, feel, touch, and breathe something so
20 real? A chance where people will be able to
21 see the other side of life. These 95 acres of
22 land are there to be used in good hands and
23 with respect.
24 Today your vote will go to save a unique
25 part of Florida which is rapidly disappearing
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 46
October 24, 2000
1 due to overdevelopment.
2 If you develop Paradise Island, I assure
3 you it will not be paradise anymore.
4 Thank you.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm just glad we
7 heard from the Seahawks.
8 Isn't that the school's --
9 Good.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: How'd you know that,
11 Gallagher?
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'm the
13 Commissioner of Education. Supposed to know --
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you know every mascot?
15 That's 2200 scho-- 2,200 schools.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I don't claim to
17 know them all.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: All right.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I don't want to --
20 I don't want to be in a contest.
21 DR. EGBERT: Governor, members of the
22 Cabinet, Mr. Ed Moyer is the Director of the
23 Division of Freshwater -- Division of
24 Freshwater Fisheries in the Commission. And he
25 has a lot of years of experience, and I've
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 47
October 24, 2000
1 asked him just to say very briefly some of the
2 impacts and context for this.
3 MR. MOYER: Good morning, Governor, and
4 members of the Cabinet. I find it difficult to
5 follow up these young people here, because
6 they've -- they've done such a nice job talking
7 about our natural resources there.
8 But I had the unique privilege to serve
9 20 years on Kissimmee chain of lakes and be
10 involved in lake enhancement projects.
11 That's a very unique area down there. The
12 fish and wildlife values are outstanding. We
13 have things like snail kites, whooping cranes,
14 eagles, and so forth.
15 We have people that travel all over the
16 United States to come and -- and see what we
17 have, they -- the bounty of the wildlife.
18 And the fisheries, we have folks coming
19 from all over the United States. We have had
20 anglers from Japan come over and enjoy the
21 largemouth bass fishing. And it -- it's
22 unique. It means a lot to the local economy.
23 It is the headwaters of the Everglades.
24 We -- Lake Tohopekaliga in particular
25 catches run-off from all the Orlando area, the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 48
October 24, 2000
1 developed areas north of us. And there was a
2 time in the mid-'80s when we had water quality
3 problems that the chlorophyll a or the algae
4 levels in that lake were as high as -- as
5 Lake Apopka. But we've managed to hang on.
6 We've worked hard to grab a hold of that
7 and use lake enhancement techniques that we've
8 developed. And regardless of the -- the growth
9 in the watershed, and also the flood control
10 project that was put in there, we've been able
11 to overcome those issues.
12 We've used drawdowns as one of the
13 techniques, and that's basically where we
14 expose about 40 to 50 percent of the lake
15 bottom.
16 We have the flood control system in place
17 so we can lower the lakes. And it's usually
18 about a six-month program. But some of the
19 ones we've put in place when it didn't rain may
20 go as long as a year-and-a-half, and it's a
21 very long -- it's been two years.
22 But what that does is dry up the organic
23 sediments, it allows us to revegetate with
24 native aquatics. And when you reflood, we have
25 a blossoming of fish populations and fish food
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 49
October 24, 2000
1 organisms.
2 We've been working down there since 1971
3 was our first project, first one in the state
4 of Florida aimed at aquatic habitat in
5 particular.
6 1979, we carried out a project when the
7 approximately 20 million gallons of secondary
8 treated effluent was coming into
9 Lake Tohopekaliga. It's like an old fighter,
10 kind of gets punched and punched again, and
11 comes back up, and we've been able to bring it
12 back and -- and have it be a good resource.
13 1987, we had our first muck removal
14 project. When we took the lake down, we spent
15 $450,000 cleaning up the lake bottom. That
16 money came from DEP. The money also came from
17 the tourist development folks down in
18 Osceola County.
19 They've been a partner in everything we've
20 done there.
21 We have a project set up for 2001-2002
22 where we're estimating 5 million dollars.
23 We're going to try to put together a
24 multiagency effort to clean up that lake again.
25 Our partners have been Osceola County.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 50
October 24, 2000
1 You've heard that -- Commissioner Dunnick, the
2 Tourist Development Commission, the DEP has
3 come forward and helped us with aquatic plant
4 management and also dollars.
5 South Florida Water Management District has
6 put people on the lake to help clean up.
7 In 1996, when we did the Lake Kissimmee
8 project, we actually had the U.S. Army
9 Corps of Engineers come forward with trucks and
10 people to help us carry organics out of there.
11 We've had great support from local
12 constituents, and the Legislature has always
13 been with us in the form of -- we've had
14 Senator and Representative Bronson be our
15 partners.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
17 DR. EGBERT: Governor, the last person on
18 my list is Mr. Greg Chelius of The Trust for
19 Public Land.
20 And I would mention if -- if you have
21 questions, we have -- also here is one of the
22 two appraisers, Mr. Frank Catlett. He -- he's
23 not -- doesn't need to say anything, but if you
24 have questions, he's available.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: He'd better stand by.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 51
October 24, 2000
1 MR. CHELIUS: Good morning, Governor, and
2 members of the Cabinet.
3 If for nothing else, I think this has been
4 a great educational opportunity for these four
5 young people. And those really are the folks
6 that are going to benefit from the acquisition
7 and protection of Lake Toho.
8 Last year you approved the acquisition of
9 Cypress Island. And during that process, I
10 promised I would never be back at this podium
11 talking to you about acquiring another island
12 in Lake Toho.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: What happened?
14 MR. CHELIUS: But we got involved somewhere
15 in the middle of the project.
16 It was really the first step, of two steps,
17 to provide for the long-term management and
18 protection of the water quality of the lake.
19 As you know, in order to protect the water
20 quality of the lake, and many lakes like
21 Lake Talquin, just outside Tallahassee, you
22 must draw down the water, clean up the
23 sediments, and allow the bottom to dry up
24 naturally as it cleanses itself, refill it, and
25 then it will be healthy for a while.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 52
October 24, 2000
1 It's kind of like a goldfish bowl that you
2 have to clean periodically, or eventually the
3 fish will die.
4 It's called hypoeutrophic, and a number of
5 lakes in Florida have experienced that, and --
6 and certainly they do die.
7 But because of the drawdowns, we will be
8 able to protect the long-term viability of the
9 lake.
10 The reason for the acquisition is,
11 of course, to prevent development in the middle
12 of the lake so that the daily lives of those
13 who may live on these islands would not be
14 interrupted.
15 And certainly the State, if the decision
16 was made to draw down the lake while people
17 live there, would not be up for a possible
18 lawsuit.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why would they have a
20 lawsuit?
21 MR. CHELIUS: Well, they would not be able
22 to get to and from work --
23 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But --
24 MR. CHELIUS: -- on a daily basis.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: But what -- but
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 53
October 24, 2000
1 they know that when they buy it. So that has
2 to be a disclosure to them. So how do they get
3 to sue after they buy something, realizing
4 that's the -- that's the problem when they buy
5 it?
6 MR. CHELIUS: Well --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: They have to be
8 given that disclosure.
9 MR. CHELIUS: It's -- do they -- does the
10 State have a right to draw down the lake when
11 people who own the lake have the ability to
12 sell lots to the public.
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The public buys a
14 lot knowing that they're going to have -- that
15 they're going to have the lake brought down.
16 How do they have a lawsuit?
17 MR. CHELIUS: Well, I think the lawsuit
18 would probably come from the owners of the
19 island as it stands now.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That -- it's
21 been -- they've been owning it, and it's been
22 drawn down from -- since they've owned it.
23 MR. CHELIUS: But they have the ability to
24 sell it to 192 different buyers.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: As long as those
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 54
October 24, 2000
1 people are willing to live with the lake being
2 drawn down.
3 MR. CHELIUS: Well, again, I think that
4 would be a lawsuit.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. That's --
6 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: That would be the
7 law.
8 MR. CHELIUS: And I --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: I think you've --
10 MR. CHELIUS: -- setting yourself up.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- that's also the
12 valuation question, which is really the --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. That's --
14 that's --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- whole point.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- why I'm having
17 a problem.
18 All of a sudden, we're telling these people
19 that it doesn't matter that we draw the lake
20 down. You can sue because we draw the lake
21 down because you bought a piece of property
22 knowing that the lake was brought down.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: But -- but the
24 people that currently own the property don't --
25 didn't buy it before the drawdown. They --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 55
October 24, 2000
1 people -- everybody owned that property when we
2 started this whole process.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is that right?
4 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And I helped start
5 it when I was President of the Senate. And I'm
6 glad I did.
7 But at the time everybody involved said we
8 would -- we'd be very cautious about the
9 property rights around -- the owners around
10 all -- the lake and the whole Kissimmee chain,
11 which we have been.
12 But what he's saying is that if you own a
13 piece of property and it has value, and -- and
14 government takes an action and lowers the value
15 of it, you have the potential of a -- of a
16 lawsuit.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: But you --
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, let me ask
19 you this --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- but the government --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Do the people want
22 to have a dead lake?
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- has taken that action
24 prior to this as well. The point is, when
25 does -- when -- you know, this is not -- I
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 56
October 24, 2000
1 don't think this is a taking.
2 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: But let's assume for a
4 moment that this would be a -- you're -- you're
5 making the assumption that it is I think for
6 the lawsuit purposes.
7 That right to draw down existed prior to
8 someone getting a permit prior to the
9 development rights being established by --
10 MR. CHELIUS: Exactly.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- going to the --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The County.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the County and -- and
14 seeking a plat for this island, assuming that
15 they went forward.
16 So if that's the case, it isn't a taking.
17 MR. CHELIUS: Well, again, I think they --
18 and I don't know. I'm not an attorney. But
19 I think they may have a case of a taking.
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well --
21 MR. CHELIUS: You know, and that's -- it's
22 debatable. But I -- I think --
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: It depends on the
24 timing.
25 MR. CHELIUS: -- you could be opening up
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 57
October 24, 2000
1 yourselves for --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I'm glad to see The
3 Trust for Public Lands is a strong advocate of
4 private property rights, because that's -- that
5 would be a bold interpretation of our takings
6 laws.
7 MR. CHELIUS: Well, I think what you have
8 here is you have the ability to acquire the
9 property at a fair price, and protect the
10 long-term ability of the Game Commission to
11 manage the lake for water quality, and --
12 you know, that's what you have the ability --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: No, that --
14 MR. CHELIUS: -- to do.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- part -- I don't know
16 about -- maybe.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I guess -- I think
18 we all --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't think anybody's --
20 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- agree with
21 that.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- arguing that.
23 MR. CHELIUS: Pardon me?
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I don't see
25 anybody disagreeing with that.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 58
October 24, 2000
1 MR. CHELIUS: Okay.
2 How we got involved.
3 After last year, I said that certainly
4 I think the Game Commission and the State could
5 acquire Paradise Island. It was during the
6 conversations of buying Cypress Island, if you
7 recall, that we kind of discussed, it wouldn't
8 make a lot of sense to buy one island if we
9 didn't acquire both.
10 And I think, Governor, you may have been
11 the one that actually said that. You know,
12 what happens if we buy one -- we can't buy the
13 other one.
14 So the Game Commission I know immediately
15 started evaluating Paradise Island. It -- it
16 obviously ranked high on their -- their list.
17 And after that -- that process, then it
18 went to the Division of State Lands.
19 During that time, we were contacted because
20 the owner had told the State that they began
21 actively marketing the property to the private
22 sector.
23 And if the State wanted to have the ability
24 to acquire the property, we met with the land
25 owners, we had an appraisal done, the appraisal
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 59
October 24, 2000
1 was 5.2 million dollars. And essentially we
2 optioned the property, giving the owners a
3 certain amount of money to keep it under option
4 so the State would have the ability to buy the
5 property.
6 And that's -- that's basically how we got
7 involved.
8 Comparing the value of Cypress Island with
9 Paradise Island, Cypress Island, when it was
10 evaluated, had a -- a density of one unit per
11 5 acres. Paradise Island has a density of
12 two units per 1 acre. It's a ten-fold
13 difference.
14 The difference in the shore property,
15 Cypress Island had a 5-acre parcel, Paradise
16 has a 10-acre parcel.
17 The difference in price per acre is 31,100
18 for Cypress Island, $48,400 for Paradise. And
19 the difference in density is ten-fold.
20 So on the comparative basis, again,
21 that's -- that's why the appraisers had a
22 difference in -- in value on a per acre basis.
23 I think the Game Commission talked about
24 the water quality issue. If you take the state
25 and divide it in half, and from Orlando down on
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 60
October 24, 2000
1 the east coast, the waters flow south. And
2 certainly Lake Toho is, in fact, the headwaters
3 of the Everglades.
4 There's -- there's no two ways about that.
5 If you can't protect the quality of the water
6 in Lake Toho, then it seems -- makes one wonder
7 why we would spend billions of dollars of
8 protecting the lake -- the waters of the
9 Everglades in south Florida.
10 Finally, one of the things that wasn't
11 mentioned is the economic benefit. A friend of
12 mine, who's a bass fisherman, says rarely in
13 the nation on a Saturday morning does one of
14 the fishing shows not focus on Lake Toho as a
15 terrific bass fishing lake.
16 And that certainly provides for -- people
17 from all over the country travel to fish there,
18 because of the water quality and the fishing.
19 And those people, of course, use lodging,
20 restaurants, sports shops, and boat dealers.
21 And it provides millions of dollars to the
22 regional economy.
23 I think spending 8.7 million on the
24 long-term conservation of this outstanding
25 water body, which provides significant dollars
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 61
October 24, 2000
1 to a strong economic base and protection of the
2 Everglades --
3 (Treasurer Nelson exited the room.)
4 MR. CHELIUS: -- seems like a good idea.
5 In closing, I encourage you to have
6 confidence in the agencies and the people who
7 work for you in trying to protect what's best
8 for Florida, while being smart with the
9 taxpayers' dollars, and support the acquisition
10 of the protection of Lake Toho.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you very much.
12 Can I ask the Commissioner a question?
13 You didn't really -- I -- I'm going to ask
14 the question I asked before.
15 Let's -- a hypothetical.
16 MR. DUNNICK: Uh-hum.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Someone has a -- the owner
18 sells the property to a home builder --
19 MR. DUNNICK: Okay.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and you've got -- how
21 many units can be built on this?
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A hundred and
23 twenty --
24 MR. DUNNICK: A hundred and eighty-nine I
25 believe.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 62
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A hundred and
2 eighty-nine unit --
3 MR. DUNNICK: What it's vested for.
4 SECRETARY HARRIS: A hundred and
5 sixty-seven --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A hundred and
7 sixty-seven units, 25 cluster homes, and
8 77 boat slips?
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: So they've got the ability
10 to -- to --
11 MR. DUNNICK: A lot of --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- how about pie density
13 development on an island.
14 MR. DUNNICK: Right.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That you can't get to,
16 unless you take a boat.
17 MR. DUNNICK: Right.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can't build a bridge.
19 There's a possibility that the lake is going to
20 be drained -- not a possibility, a probability,
21 already in existence. They know that as a
22 fact.
23 What would you do -- what would you require
24 of that developer in advance in order to get to
25 secure not their vested rights, but their
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 63
October 24, 2000
1 plat -- in order to get their building permits
2 and their platted property, to approve it?
3 What would you -- what would you require?
4 MR. DUNNICK: Well, Governor --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Impact fees, what kind of
6 mitigation would you require? What --
7 MR. DUNNICK: As far as mitigation, I --
8 what -- what type of mitigation would you be
9 looking for?
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, I'm just saying,
11 you know, in this -- if this -- every county is
12 a little bit different on how they go about
13 this.
14 MR. DUNNICK: Okay.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: In Miami-Dade County,
16 someone came up with something like this, they
17 would hammer the developer to the point where
18 people would really have to think twice about
19 doing something --
20 MR. DUNNICK: Right.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- of this kind of density.
22 MR. DUNNICK: Right.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: They would -- they would
24 require impact fees and offsite mitigation --
25 MR. DUNNICK: Well, Governor -- now, we --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 64
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Fire department --
2 MR. DUNNICK: -- we -- you know, they're --
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- police
4 coverage.
5 MR. DUNNICK: -- going to have base impact
6 fees. They're -- they're going to have --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: School.
8 MR. DUNNICK: -- all that --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, what would it be?
10 MR. DUNNICK: They will have that --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Give me a sense. Give me a
12 sense of what it'd be.
13 MR. DUNNICK: Well, the transportation
14 impact fees per unit, they're looking at on a
15 house, $2,000, they're looking at 2500 for a
16 school --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, that's nothing. In
18 other words, you -- you wouldn't treat this
19 differently than you would a --
20 MR. DUNNICK: They -- they would --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- an expansion of
22 Celebration. Well, that's probably not even
23 your deal. I'm sorry. But --
24 MR. DUNNICK: It is.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Do you guys get to --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 65
October 24, 2000
1 MR. DUNNICK: As a matter of fact, Disney
2 finally built something in Osceola County --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: There you go.
4 MR. DUNNICK: -- we get a little tax money.
5 But -- but, Governor, I see what you're
6 saying.
7 But -- but as far as their transportation
8 element of how they're going to get people on
9 and off the island, they -- they've got these
10 hovercrafts at about the size of this room,
11 and --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: I don't --
13 MR. DUNNICK: -- it's no problem. They can
14 drive them right down the road. So
15 transportation is not going to be an issue.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: You're missing my --
17 MR. DUNNICK: -- get on and off the island.
18 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: How about -- how
19 about fire coverage and police coverage and
20 those kind of things?
21 MR. DUNNICK: I -- I would assume that
22 they -- we would make sure that they put their
23 own fire and services right on the island.
24 They would -- they would have to have their own
25 water system, they'd have to have --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 66
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: So we're --
2 MR. DUNNICK: -- water supply. They would
3 have to --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Sewer?
5 MR. DUNNICK: -- come straight to the
6 county --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: To -- sewer.
8 MR. DUNNICK: -- that they could meet the
9 basic needs of a community development.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Sewage?
11 MR. DUNNICK: Now --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: They have to have their own
13 sewage --
14 MR. DUNNICK: They -- they would --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- controlled system?
16 MR. DUNNICK: That would be, of course --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- I assume.
18 MR. DUNNICK: -- controlled by the State.
19 But we would ask -- we would require them --
20 with that kind of density, Governor, they'd be
21 required to have a package plant, or the
22 ability to tie in to a system, which you can't
23 do out in the middle of a lake.
24 So they -- yes, they'd have to have a
25 package plant out there. They would have to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 67
October 24, 2000
1 have a water facility.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a -- is the
3 appraiser here?
4 DR. EGBERT: Yes, sir.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can he come forth here and
6 do battle for a second?
7 MR. DUNNICK: We would -- Governor, we --
8 we would do whatever we could to protect the
9 county, because I know we --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: The reason I'm asking
11 this is that --
12 MR. DUNNICK: -- we're going to have to
13 deal with it down the road.
14 GOVERNOR BUSH: The reason I'm asking this
15 is there's more to the cost of development than
16 land.
17 MR. DUNNICK: Absolutely.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: And in these extraordinary
19 cases, counties do have more discretion -- just
20 to say, well, it's vested --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: It ain't going
22 to --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- and say, you know, it's
24 going to happen --
25 MR. DUNNICK: Right.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 68
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: I know there are a lot of
2 people that own private property in our state
3 that would wish it was that way.
4 MR. DUNNICK: Sure.
5 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: That's right.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: But it isn't that way.
7 It's isn't that way.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Buy it.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: And -- but -- again, my
10 only concern is valuation. And I predicted
11 that we would be here last time we gathered on
12 this -- on this same lake. And -- anyway.
13 MR. CATLETT: Governor, Cabinet, my name is
14 Frank Catlett. I'm one of the --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: Can I ask you a question?
16 MR. CATLETT: Yes, sir.
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: What kind of home prices in
18 this theoretical development that we hope never
19 gets built, what would it -- what would it take
20 in order to have $100,000 per lot --
21 MR. CATLETT: The home prices --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- grow --
23 Let me finish.
24 -- $100,000, undeveloped lots, in a place
25 that has huge infrastructure costs, because
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 69
October 24, 2000
1 it's an island, and it'll have unique
2 environmental concerns that the County and the
3 State would impose even greater commitments to
4 infrastructure to protect the lake.
5 What kind of price would you have to pay
6 for a half acre -- not a half acre, probably a
7 3 acre lot development, which ain't that big of
8 a piece of property.
9 What kind of home sale price would you have
10 to have, and -- and is there a market for --
11 Go ahead. Answer that first, because
12 I'm --
13 MR. CATLETT: I'm glad you asked that
14 question, because within my report, I did
15 address the maximally productive issues related
16 to this island.
17 I did research the number of island sales,
18 of lot sales, and -- within that community.
19 Basically you've got almost $50,000 in lot
20 development costs in order to effectuate a sale
21 on here.
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Exactly.
23 MR. CATLETT: And you're going to have --
24 the average price was going to be around
25 $140,000 a lot.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 70
October 24, 2000
1 So in answer to your question, the home
2 prices would probably be in the neighborhood of
3 three hundred and fifty to -- to six hundred
4 thousand. That's correct.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: So -- I mean, I was -- I
6 was guessing a --
7 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And they're not
8 going to --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- half a million dollars.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- go -- they're
11 not going to put those on a half acre.
12 MR. CATLETT: No, they're not. These --
13 these lots are basically 90 or 100 by 185 foot
14 lots, that's correct. As --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: So how are you going to
16 have a half a million dollar home on a -- it's
17 not zero lot line. But this isn't -- I mean,
18 this looks more like -- I'm trying to think of
19 a development around here that everybody'd
20 appreciate. But it's --
21 MR. CATLETT: Originally when --
22 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Seaside.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: More like --
24 MR. CATLETT: -- a previous developer had
25 this -- he had --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 71
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Kendell.
2 MR. CATLETT: -- twenty-one reservations
3 within --
4 (Treasurer Nelson entered the room.)
5 MR. CATLETT: -- a period of three weeks
6 when he initially tried to market this before a
7 DRI issue came up, and -- and -- and stopped
8 the project from going forward.
9 But he did have those reservations with
10 monies down. And there was an expressed
11 interest --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: These are like quarter
13 lots -- quarter acre lots, and you're going to
14 sell them -- you believe that there's a market
15 in -- in this part of the state for half a
16 million dollar homes?
17 MR. CATLETT: Yes. Because there are a
18 number of lots -- or -- or subdivisions within
19 Lake Toho where the lot prices have been at
20 this $140,000 level for lakefront lots.
21 And Harbor --
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: Lakefront.
23 MR. CATLETT: -- Oaks and Regal Oak Shores,
24 and those types of homes are already existing
25 on the lake.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 72
October 24, 2000
1 Having been an appraiser for 25 years, and
2 really concentrating in this area for,
3 let's say, the last ten years with just in the
4 last year or so, 1,000 acres has now been
5 taken -- is going to be developed, the former
6 Overoaks, the Overstreet Ranch on --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh, yeah.
8 MR. CATLETT: -- Pleasant Hill is now
9 approved, I believe, for two golf courses and
10 890 units down there.
11 The Yates property on 17/92, which is about
12 400 acres, more or less, is now slated for
13 development with multifamily town home
14 developments.
15 Har--
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, what's going
17 on with all that stuff up there?
18 MR. DUNNICK: Well, Governor, I'm glad you
19 asked that question.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: This -- because this --
21 this ain't before you.
22 MR. DUNNICK: No.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: This is in front of you.
24 MR. DUNNICK: But -- but the Yates
25 property -- they -- here's what's happening,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 73
October 24, 2000
1 Governor.
2 The Yates property. We had a deal to buy
3 that land, and the State got into the issue of
4 sovereign land, who owns what, how many acres
5 is who.
6 We just had -- we as the County Commission
7 asked the State, how about just quitclaiming
8 that once we get a contract on it so that we
9 can justify the acreage price. That was never
10 done.
11 We couldn't eve-- we couldn't work with the
12 State to get it done, Governor, and so now it's
13 going to be developed.
14 We had a beautiful opportunity to take the
15 full 500 acres off the -- off the real estate
16 market. It's right there on the edge of
17 Kissimmee. It's right on the way to the
18 Green Barn where -- you know, you've been out
19 to the green barn before. That's where the
20 other piece is. And it's right on the lake.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's an incredible piece
22 of property.
23 MR. DUNNICK: Yeah. And, you know, trying
24 to --
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: You -- you don't have a
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 74
October 24, 2000
1 right -- don't you have the right -- these are
2 un-- these are properties that don't have
3 development rights attached to them, do they?
4 They come to you to get it --
5 MR. DUNNICK: Absolutely.
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: So --
7 MR. DUNNICK: But we have a comprehensive
8 land use plan where you can come in and ask for
9 certain things.
10 But one thing that we did do, when we
11 dealt -- you know Mr. Overstreet, Jenn and
12 JoAnn, when we dealt with them, you know, we
13 got the densities on there till we -- we left
14 half the ranch open. I mean, to keep the
15 habitat and the corridors and stuff like that,
16 we kept it open.
17 We basically put all the houses in a little
18 block, and we said, leave the rest alone, and
19 we're not touching the lakefront. So we got
20 those concessions, Governor. And --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Good.
22 MR. DUNNICK: -- and -- you know, and I
23 think that's a good thing on our part.
24 MR. CATLETT: Additionally, part of the
25 Partin ranch has been sold to the Seminoles,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 75
October 24, 2000
1 and other parts of it are optioned.
2 So there's a considerable amount of
3 development that's coming in and around the
4 lake that's basically surrounding this.
5 This property is much closer to linkages
6 for transportation than was Mackinson or
7 Cypress, where you had to go down 17/92,
8 Pleasant Hill Road, you had about a 12-mile
9 trek where you only got about 3 miles to this
10 particular property.
11 Again, we talked about the vesting issue,
12 about what can be built on here. Considerable
13 more development can be built on this piece of
14 property.
15 I looked at not only island sales that
16 ranged anywhere from 38,000 to $119,000 an
17 acre, but then also looked at waterfront sales
18 within the Orlando area. And those sales were
19 in the forty to eight thousand dollar an acre
20 range.
21 My conclusion of value was $55,000. Also
22 did a development approach based upon -- I
23 called the previous fellow that had an option
24 to develop this property, went over his -- all
25 of his development costs with him. And --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 76
October 24, 2000
1 effectively to show that the -- I had a -- an
2 indication of well over 6 million dollars from
3 a development perspective that it would be
4 economically feasible to --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why didn't he buy it?
6 MR. CATLETT: He had an option to buy it --
7 or actually he had a -- a contract price was
8 four million one twenty-five around 1995, got
9 up to four-and-a-half million dollars.
10 What had happened was an issue was raised
11 about a DRI -- and this is because of a port
12 operation where there were going to be
13 manatees.
14 Well, there's obviously not any manatees in
15 Lake Toho. It was an oversight.
16 But he had had his funding already with
17 Citibank in New York with foreign investors,
18 and they didn't want to wait the two years that
19 it took to resolve that issue, so his sources
20 of funding had left.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
22 Any other -- any questions?
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I guess -- I
24 just -- in your opinion, if we didn't buy this
25 property, would this -- would this
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 77
October 24, 2000
1 Paradise Island be developed?
2 MR. CATLETT: I believe that's true. I
3 have had -- even as an appraiser -- I'm not in
4 a brokerage capacity -- I've had people call
5 me, because they know that I've appraised this
6 particular piece of property, that have
7 interest in the property.
8 It's like having twins, and then all of a
9 sudden you separate one at birth, and you don't
10 get the other one, you know? What's going to
11 happen to you with the -- the one that you
12 don't take?
13 And that -- you know, you've got Cypress
14 now, and you --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: I'm not sure it's quite
16 like that. But --
17 MR. CATLETT: Well --
18 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, it may -- it
19 may make the one that didn't -- you know,
20 that's -- that's available, more valuable.
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: I guess so.
22 SECRETARY HARRIS: Whatever.
23 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I wouldn't want --
24 I don't want to go the twin -- that's the deal
25 though.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 78
October 24, 2000
1 MR. CATLETT: Is that it?
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Any other questions?
3 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, you know,
4 I think it's -- it's real important that --
5 that we look at this -- this island, and that
6 we do what we can to preserve it.
7 But I have a real hard time with this value
8 on it. I know what appraised values are, and
9 we're supposed to take appraised values,
10 et cetera.
11 But when we bought an island for $35,938
12 per upland acre, and the only reason it was
13 that was because maybe they didn't -- or --
14 they didn't vest their rights, and this owner
15 vested their rights.
16 So, therefore, we should pay 55,000, was
17 it?
18 MR. CATLETT: Roughly, yes.
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Per acre?
20 I'm real uncomfortable with that. I'm not
21 sure what to do about it, but I'm uncomfortable
22 with it.
23 And my temptation is to -- is to come up
24 with an offer that is somewhere between the two
25 that -- that I could be more comfortable with.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 79
October 24, 2000
1 And if I was -- I look at buying these
2 things as much as I do for the State as if it
3 was me. And I just would feel like I wasn't
4 doing the right thing if I paid $55,000 an acre
5 for something that I don't believe is -- is
6 that easy to develop.
7 MR. CATLETT: That may be your prerogative.
8 But I don't think it's in keeping with the
9 concept of market value. You know, the willing
10 buyer and seller concept, both being
11 knowledgeable.
12 And -- and that's where I think you're --
13 you're going off into something that's more to
14 an -- a liquidation value, something that's
15 different from market value, which as
16 appraisers, we're to seek out on all these
17 appraisals that we do for the State.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: With all due respect,
19 I think the Commissioner's point is that it
20 would be highly unlikely that a developer that
21 wanted to get the best valuation for this land
22 would have this kind of density.
23 And I don't know how many lakes have
24 islands on them where you're getting two units
25 per -- per acre. But that's a -- that's a --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 80
October 24, 2000
1 that's a suburban kind of development.
2 And given the infrastructure costs and the
3 mitigation costs that would be likely -- and I
4 would hope that the Osceola County Commission
5 would require -- that kind of density would --
6 would -- I just think it's out of step. It may
7 be that that's what's vested, and so,
8 therefore, you're appraising it based on that.
9 And by -- in your profession, that's the
10 accurate way of doing it.
11 But the reality I think is -- is a little
12 bit different. And why is it that every-- it
13 just seems -- maybe I'm -- haven't been at
14 these meetings when -- when it's worked out the
15 other way, that we always are the ones that end
16 up paying the price.
17 I mean, it is -- this is deja vu all over
18 again. Had this same conversa--
19 I think you were here, weren't you?
20 MR. CATLETT: Well, I indulge you to --
21 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've done a much better
22 job, by the way, today than --
23 MR. CATLETT: Well, no, it was someone
24 else. And I indulged you for my --
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, that guy was --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 81
October 24, 2000
1 MR. CATLETT: -- my son's signature last
2 time.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've made a much better
4 argument about valuation than the last time
5 we've gone through this.
6 But it's -- it's very frustrating.
7 And -- anyway. I know I'm in a minority on
8 this --
9 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well, I don't -- I
10 don't know if -- you're definitely not in a
11 minority in that concern, because it is an
12 ongoing problem --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, it was six to one
14 last time I --
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Well --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- brought up the subject.
17 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- about the --
18 about the concern about how much we pay,
19 I think we're all concerned about that.
20 And there -- there's probably just some
21 structural built-in disadvantages that the
22 State has that, you know, we're sitting here,
23 and we're obviously, you know, they -- people
24 know how much money we've got, they know what
25 we want to buy, and they know what we want to
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 82
October 24, 2000
1 pay for it.
2 And, you know, I don't know how to change
3 that without changing, you know, Sunshine and
4 all that.
5 But having said that, I -- I -- that's why
6 I hadn't --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Warren Bankman's in --
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- changed it --
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the crowd. Don't --
10 don't say that.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: I'm not advocating
12 the chamber.
13 But I think what the Governor's saying is
14 that if we're -- if we're paying a -- a
15 development price for a piece of property, he
16 has a lot of expertise about, well, is it
17 really -- is it really developable.
18 And so is -- is -- is this a price that
19 a -- a developer would pay. And -- and I think
20 all of those -- those concerns are -- are very
21 valid.
22 I -- I know some of the owners of this --
23 this property, and it's my understanding, and I
24 don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but
25 that -- that we're very willing to sell it
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 83
October 24, 2000
1 at -- at this price, but they're not willing to
2 sell it at anything less.
3 Now, my interpretation of that is that --
4 what's driving that is the fact that it -- this
5 is valuable, and it -- and it can be developed,
6 and probably will be developed.
7 And so there's another price waiting out
8 there that the owners probably could get.
9 Unlike some property we buy that I think
10 we're -- we're the -- the only buyers, this one
11 actually I think, there are developers that
12 would buy it.
13 So it -- it -- to me, it adds a little bit
14 of comfort to the -- to the -- the price that
15 we would be paying for it.
16 I used to represent this area when I was in
17 the State House. And it's a beautiful area,
18 and this lake is one of the most wonderful
19 lakes around. And it is a part of the whole
20 chain.
21 And I think that -- while I do share the
22 Governor's concern about the price, I have
23 confidence that -- that -- that this is the
24 only price we can get, and if we don't pay it,
25 a developer's going to pay it, and we'll have
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 84
October 24, 2000
1 a -- have a -- a development there, and not
2 know what we all want. And -- and that's
3 just -- just how I feel about it.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Let me just --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- if -- put it in
7 perspective here.
8 We have a -- if, in fact, we pay the
9 35,938 per upland acre that we paid for
10 Cypress, we would be paying three million three
11 fifty-one two hundred for this 93.25 acres, as
12 opposed to the four million seven forty-five
13 one twenty-six that is, I guess, sitting in the
14 option.
15 Somewhere -- in my opinion, somewhere
16 between those two numbers is what we ought to
17 be offering, and -- and what it's worth.
18 SECRETARY HARRIS: Could --
19 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- to the State.
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: Katherine.
21 SECRETARY HARRIS: Yes.
22 I wanted to ask the appraiser again, if you
23 wouldn't mind coming back to the microphone.
24 Somewhere -- what Commissioner Gallagher is
25 saying is somewhere between the two. The
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 85
October 24, 2000
1 excuse, of course, the previous island was that
2 it wasn't zoned for such intense development.
3 As it's platted, or as it's approved, and
4 as you appraised it for 167 homes on 88 acres,
5 and in addition to that, 22 small apartments,
6 and two marinas, do you remember how many
7 lakefront lots actually existed?
8 MR. CATLETT: I believe there were -- I'm
9 not -- I think 64 of those were -- but I'm --
10 I'd have to look to be honest.
11 SECRETARY HARRIS: It's just interesting,
12 because to -- to actually come up with the
13 prices that you're quoting -- quoting anywhere
14 from three to six hundred thousand, you
15 certainly can't get that on a third of a lot.
16 I just don't really understand.
17 I mean, understanding that Mackinson Island
18 wasn't zoned for such intense development, I
19 think for you to get the highest and best use,
20 and the highest values out of these lots,
21 you're going to see much less intense
22 development on this island, which again I think
23 is going to lower the price at -- at -- at the
24 end of the day.
25 I mean, I -- I think that
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 86
October 24, 2000
1 Commissioner Gallagher's right, somewhere
2 between those two prices, because you're not
3 going to have that same intensity here if you
4 want to get the values that -- that you're
5 quoting I think.
6 MR. CATLETT: Basically the way the plan
7 was designed, that there were 64 lakefront
8 lots, there were nine lake view and lagoon
9 lots, and then they had a -- an intricate canal
10 system, where you had 94. And all of these
11 would have had access to --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. But
13 they're --
14 MR. CATLETT: -- the lake --
15 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- they're --
16 SECRETARY HARRIS: That's --
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- going to dredge
18 this island?
19 SECRETARY HARRIS: That's infrastructure
20 costs, too --
21 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah. Right.
22 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- and, again, that's on
23 top of what --
24 GOVERNOR BUSH: Commissioner, you going --
25 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- you've already talked
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 87
October 24, 2000
1 about --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- to let them do that?
3 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- on top of --
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: No way.
5 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- package plants, road
6 structure -- infrastructure, to have lagoons
7 and dredging, and all those kinds of things to
8 justify those kind of lot prices, I mean,
9 you're looking at lots really high.
10 MR. CATLETT: But I think that --
11 SECRETARY HARRIS: And that's not been
12 approved, has it, lagoons, dredging?
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: You actually
14 valued this on -- on -- on the proposal that
15 there would be canals?
16 MR. CATLETT: No. I -- all I did was point
17 out a previous development plan within my
18 appraisal report.
19 Mine was based on the comparison of island
20 sales to the subject property. And using those
21 island sales is the basis of my evaluation, not
22 the development plan that was in here.
23 All I did was point out the economic
24 feasibility of development. That -- but my
25 appraisal's not predicated upon them building
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 88
October 24, 2000
1 exactly, because they'll come in -- they could
2 change the plan -- the next developer can
3 change his plan.
4 He may decide to put half or two-thirds as
5 many lots, but then have higher priced lots --
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
7 MR. CATLETT: -- I don't know.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I guarantee you,
9 that's where they're --
10 SECRETARY HARRIS: I'm --
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- headed.
12 SECRETARY HARRIS: -- I'm just really
13 confused. I mean, I haven't seen your specific
14 appraisal, but to justify this price at -- at
15 your appraisal.
16 And -- and did -- if you valued it on
17 lagoons -- I don't understand how you're coming
18 up with that price with this kind of intensity
19 of land use, not to mention all the
20 infrastructure costs that are going to be
21 involved.
22 MR. CATLETT: Again, this gets back to
23 the -- to the seven island sales that were
24 anywhere between 38,000 and $119,000 an acre.
25 I'm at the lower end of that --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 89
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: Were they at --
2 MR. CATLETT: -- value rating --
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- the same size?
4 MR. CATLETT: Some were larger, some were
5 smaller, yeah, depending on the size, yes.
6 And that's the basis is looking at those
7 island sales, ranking those sales, and how --
8 whether they were superior or inferior.
9 Some of these only could be accessed by
10 boat, similar to the subject property.
11 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Who are the buyers
12 of these islands?
13 MR. CATLETT: Some of them were private
14 sector sales, and some were government sector
15 sales.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Oh.
17 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: The government was
18 always higher though, wasn't it?
19 MR. CATLETT: No. Interestingly --
20 interestingly enough, the government was on the
21 lower end of the scale.
22 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: There you go.
23 All right.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Well, we'll keep
25 it that way.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 90
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: It's just in this case,
2 it's not --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Governor, if
4 I --
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes. Bob.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Is a -- is
7 the owner of the property here, or a
8 representative of the property?
9 MR. CHELIUS: Bill?
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
11 MS. PARRY: Thanks.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: It must be kind of weird
13 sitting here listening to us talk about your
14 property.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Ask a
16 question?
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yes, please.
18 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: If you'd
19 please identify yourself, just for the record,
20 sir.
21 MR. WARD: Good morning.
22 I am Bill Ward from Lakeland. And my
23 partner here is Mrs. Margaret Parry from
24 Lakeland.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Welcome.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 91
October 24, 2000
1 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Do both of
2 you own the entire Paradise Island?
3 MR. WARD: Sir?
4 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Do you own
5 the entire Paradise Island?
6 MR. WARD: No, sir. We represent a
7 partnership.
8 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
9 MR. WARD: Mrs. Parry and I own very close
10 to the majority. We're 47 percent to be exact
11 between us.
12 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Okay.
13 MR. WARD: And I have children involved, so
14 that would also make me a majority owner, I do
15 believe.
16 But we do have other partners besides
17 children.
18 And may I first say, good morning to
19 Ms. Katherine, and gentlemen, and Governor.
20 We're very glad to be here, and to answer
21 any questions that you might have of me.
22 Let me point out one thing that -- that you
23 all brought up in your discussion. Mr. Dunnick
24 may not have realized.
25 But in addition to the P-U-D, we also have
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 92
October 24, 2000
1 the land -- I'm not sure of the legal language
2 on these things.
3 But there is also attached to that the
4 initial phase. And it's already spelled out,
5 all of the things that --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: Platted?
7 MR. WARD: -- you questioned --
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Your property's platted?
9 MR. WARD: -- as to what has a plat.
10 Yes, sir. That has to be done. And that's all
11 listed, and it's public property, and -- public
12 knowledge. And -- and we can adhere to that
13 without any problem at all.
14 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How many
15 owners are there of -- of this property?
16 MR. WARD: Mrs. Parry; myself; I have four
17 children, and they each have 5 percent
18 ownership; there is a daughter of one of the
19 original owners has 17 percent; and a doctor
20 who now lives in Hawaii, is an older gentleman,
21 and would like to see something out of this
22 sooner or later, he has 16 percent.
23 That totals the 100 percent. But --
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: How long
25 have you had ownership?
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 93
October 24, 2000
1 MR. WARD: We have had this property since
2 1957. That's --
3 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: So just --
4 MR. WARD: -- 43 years. This is not --
5 we're not a new kid on the block. And -- and
6 we have not bought this two years ago, and
7 tried to sell it to the government --
8 government.
9 So this has come about because of Trust for
10 Public Land. We have had several options,
11 several contracts on the property, at much more
12 money than what we're going to get from Trust
13 for Public Lands.
14 And, therefore, we feel that it's
15 actually --
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why would you sell it for
17 less?
18 MR. WARD: Sir?
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Why would you sell it for
20 less?
21 MR. WARD: Because we have a contract with
22 TPL, and we agreed to go with the appraisals.
23 We had one appraisal that was 5.2 that we
24 had done on our own with Trust for
25 Public Lands. And you all had two appraisals,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 94
October 24, 2000
1 and I think one of them was five, and one of
2 them was five one three, or something like
3 that.
4 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Right.
5 MR. WARD: And so we have a contract with
6 the Trust -- Trust for Public Lands, which we
7 will live with until someone says it's over
8 with. And then we'll go back to the private
9 sector.
10 But we feel actually, in spite of taking a
11 little less than what I would like, we feel
12 that this property belongs to the people in the
13 long run.
14 If they're going to develop Makinson Island
15 or Cypress Island as a park, as part of the
16 public domain, we feel that this would tie
17 right in with it, and belongs there.
18 The question has also been raised about
19 traffic back and forth if they draw down the
20 lake.
21 Most assuredly, Mr. Gallagher, this is a
22 litigious society we're in, and I'm afraid that
23 whether we had a caveat in there or not saying,
24 you're going to have a lake drawdown every
25 eight or ten years, I suspect 150 people would
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 95
October 24, 2000
1 probably file a separate lawsuit.
2 And how far it would get, I don't know.
3 I'm not an attorney --
4 GOVERNOR BUSH: They'll probably sue --
5 MR. WARD: -- and Mr. Butterworth to --
6 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- because they're south of
7 the Orlando International Airport runway.
8 You know, I mean, that's -- it's just --
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And it's noisy.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: The question is whether
11 it's a legitimate lawsuit. And I just --
12 MR. WARD: Well, I'm not -- not trying to
13 get argumentative, sir.
14 At any rate --
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: I only play a lawyer --
16 MR. WARD: -- I'll be glad --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- for purposes of my --
18 MR. WARD: -- to answer any other questions
19 that you might have --
20 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- acting --
21 MR. WARD: -- sir.
22 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- job. So I don't know.
23 Any other questions?
24 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: I move the
25 item, Governor.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 96
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion.
2 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
3 GOVERNOR BUSH: Second.
4 All in favor, say --
5 Excuse me? Go ahead.
6 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: I'll -- I was
7 going to have a substitute. I'm going to --
8 let's see how this one goes first.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, if it passes, then --
10 All in favor, say aye.
11 THE CABINET: Aye.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: All opposed?
13 No.
14 It passes.
15 That's it.
16 Thank you very much.
17 MR. DUNNICK: Thank you.
18 MR. WARD: Thank you, sir.
19 MS. PARRY: Could I say one thing?
20 I'm Margaret Parry.
21 And I'd like to say: I, like you, who are
22 very concerned --
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've got it already.
24 You're done.
25 MS. PARRY: No, no --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 97
October 24, 2000
1 GOVERNOR BUSH: You've got your sale.
2 MS. PARRY: -- but I'd like to say
3 something.
4 I'm very conservative fiscally. And I'm --
5 and I understand your concern. I'm very
6 pleased that the people of Florida will be able
7 to enjoy this.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
9 MS. PARRY: It's great that all -- all the
10 kids will be able to enjoy it.
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank y'all very much for
12 coming.
13 You won.
14 It was victory.
15 MR. STRUHS: Governor and members of the
16 Cabinet, the --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Could I -- just before the
18 Commissioner leaves, we have a Growth
19 Management Study Commission that is underway.
20 And one of the things that I want to make
21 sure that we do is that if we're obligated to
22 begin -- to -- to start buying land because
23 values are growing, it seems to me that the
24 counties need to take their responsibility
25 seriously as it relates to the --
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 98
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Densities.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- granting of development
3 rights and densities.
4 And I'm going to keep voting no on this
5 until we change how we do things. Not because
6 I don't think that was a valuable piece of
7 property. But we're bailing out counties not
8 having the courage to do what's right as it
9 relates to growth management.
10 I appreciate the fact that y'all are -- you
11 seem to have the right attitude about this --
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Somebody --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- but somehow we're going
14 to have to change the -- the thinking about
15 this, or you're going to pay the consequences,
16 because if -- if -- if -- if the land
17 management process needs more money for
18 management, which it does, and we're buying
19 everything under the sun at very high prices,
20 we're not going to have money to manage the
21 properties.
22 And -- as you can tell, I'm a little upset
23 about this.
24 But it's just --
25 MR. DUNNICK: And, Governor, you know, you
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 99
October 24, 2000
1 and I sing off the same sheet of music often,
2 you know, especially some of the prices that
3 have been paid for land that did not meet the
4 criteria, it was a buy-out of somebody in
5 trouble, or so on and so forth.
6 But there again, this is --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: I just think maybe we ought
8 to get the counties --
9 MR. DUNNICK: This is -- absolutely.
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- as partners in this.
11 MR. WARD: Absolutely.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: And then we'll get the --
13 we'll see the prices drop. I guarantee you.
14 MR. DUNNICK: You know what, I'll
15 guarantee, the counties are willing to step up
16 to the plate, as Osceola County has done on
17 lots of issues that basically were out of our
18 control.
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: Well, we're going to be
20 back at you --
21 MR. DUNNICK: Well, Governor, you're right
22 on track, and -- and we're ready to reach out
23 and be partners with you.
24 Thank you.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 100
October 24, 2000
1 MR. DUNNICK: But you and I --
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thanks for coming up.
3 MR. DUNNICK: -- you and I have been dealt
4 a lot of cards that were dealt out 10, 15 years
5 ago. And you and I are doing the best we can.
6 And, Cabinet, I sure appreciate everything
7 you've done.
8 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thanks for being here.
9 MR. DUNNICK: Thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: And, Governor, I
11 want to congratulate the young students that
12 came up today. They did a great --
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Absolutely.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: -- job. So we --
15 we appreciate that.
16 MR. STRUHS: On that --
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Thank you for coming.
18 MR. STRUHS: -- point --
19 GOVERNOR BUSH: In fact, that was the first
20 time I think we've had -- since I've been
21 Governor -- young people come and talk about --
22 talk about a -- the purchase of the land.
23 And your -- your case was very compelling.
24 Very articulate, and I was the only guy that
25 had the courage to vote no, you notice.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 101
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Go Seahawks.
2 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: The ability
3 to get the children of our state?
4 MR. STRUHS: Governor, this is an unusual
5 request. But since you've raised the issue,
6 the students would like a quick photograph --
7 GOVERNOR BUSH: Yeah. Why not?
8 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Yeah.
9 GOVERNOR BUSH: Come on. We have -- do we
10 have a camera?
11 MR. STRUHS: Well, I think their -- their
12 chaperone has a camera.
13 GOVERNOR BUSH: Okay.
14 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: That's cool.
16 (Discussion off the record.)
17 GOVERNOR BUSH: Secretary Struhs.
18 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 6, I was seeking
19 approval for acceptance of an assignment of an
20 option agreement to acquire 53 acres in the
21 Perdido Pitcher Plant Prairie CARL Project.
22 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Motion.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: Is there a second?
24 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
25 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 102
October 24, 2000
1 Without objection, it's approved.
2 MR. STRUHS: I'll point out that we're
3 pleased that the acquisition price on that
4 parcel is 9-- 92 percent of the appraised
5 value.
6 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: That'll make
7 up for the last one which was overpriced.
8 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Yeah, it was -- it
9 was --
10 GOVERNOR BUSH: Ninety-two percent, too.
11 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Okay.
12 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- 92 percent,
13 too. But it -- it was too high.
14 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 7 is a value for
15 value exchange. It's an exchange agreement to
16 acquire 77.4 acres within the Florida Springs
17 Coastal Greenway CARL project from Citrus
18 Mining and Timber, in exchange for three
19 parcels adjacent to the Cross Florida Barge
20 Canal.
21 Anna Marie Hartman from our program is
22 available if there are any questions on this
23 item.
24 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Move Item 7.
25 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 103
October 24, 2000
1 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
2 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
3 Without objection, it's approved.
4 MR. STRUHS: Item Number 8, we're seeking
5 approval of a mediated final judgment and
6 settlement of a lawsuit.
7 I'd be happy to describe this, and also
8 Attorney Bob Scanlan from the
9 Attorney General's office is available.
10 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion on approval
11 with interest.
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Moved and seconded.
13 Without objection, it's approved.
14 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to defer 9.
15 ATTORNEY GENERAL BUTTERWORTH: Second.
16 GOVERNOR BUSH: Motion to defer and a
17 second.
18 Without objection, it's approved.
19 Item 10.
20 MR. STRUHS: Item 10, recommending
21 approval, subject to special approval
22 conditions and a lease condition payment of
23 $5,222.
24 You may recall this item was before you
25 back on October 10. The applicant and the
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 104
October 24, 2000
1 Save the Manatee Club went back and worked out
2 some additional terms.
3 And Mr. Pat Rose is available here to
4 answer any questions. And, in fact, I think
5 wanted to speak very briefly on one issue as it
6 relates to enforcement.
7 Other than that though, the parties have
8 reached an agreement.
9 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Motion to
10 approve --
11 GOVERNOR BUSH: How about the doctor that
12 was the neighbor? Is he --
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: -- conditions.
14 COMPTROLLER MILLIGAN: Second.
15 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion and a
16 second.
17 Welcome.
18 MR. ROSE: Thank you.
19 I just wanted to say that -- thank you,
20 Governor, for bringing us together in the
21 summit this week, and point out that one of the
22 issues that we reached good consensus on among
23 all the parties was that we need additional
24 law enforcement.
25 And I'm not speaking in objection to this
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 105
October 24, 2000
1 project today, but to let you know, this is a
2 very remote area. It's just -- essentially
3 without enforcement at all of these speed zones
4 there. And there have been no citations
5 issued, despite the fact, there have been
6 repeated violations of the speed zones.
7 And so we thank you for being -- moving us
8 on the right track. But we really do have to
9 beef up -- the Fish and Wildlife Conservation
10 Commission is trying to do a good job. They
11 don't have the resources to do --
12 GOVERNOR BUSH: Would this be a -- is this
13 in Federal --
14 MR. ROSE: This is both State and Federal
15 waters. It needs to be a partnership situation
16 on the Barron River where this project is going
17 to be located, and others are being located.
18 This would be State waters, and important
19 to have State law enforcement.
20 These boats, however, when they leave
21 together with what are already there, are going
22 out into Federal waters where we need Federal
23 partnering with that as well.
24 I just wanted to again thank you for moving
25 us in the right direction, but let you know,
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 106
October 24, 2000
1 there's serious problems that exist there, and
2 they're going to remain serious without some
3 more help.
4 Thank you.
5 GOVERNOR BUSH: Very good.
6 Any discussion?
7 It's been moved and seconded.
8 Without objection, it's approved.
9 What happened to the doctor? Was he -- the
10 guy that came last time.
11 Is he okay with it?
12 Now that we've approved it?
13 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: A motion to defer
14 to 11-29, Item Number 11.
15 COMMISSIONER CRAWFORD: Second.
16 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: And a motion to
17 withdraw Number 12.
18 GOVERNOR BUSH: There's a motion to defer,
19 and a second.
20 Without objection, it's approved.
21 And a --
22 MR. STRUHS: Thank you very much.
23 GOVERNOR BUSH: -- motion to withdraw.
24 Thank you.
25 COMMISSIONER GALLAGHER: Withdraw 11 -- 12.
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
TRUSTEES/INTERNAL IMPROVEMENT TRUST FUND 107
October 24, 2000
1 (The Board of Trustees of the Internal
2 Improvement Trust Fund Agenda was concluded.)
3 * * *
4 (The Cabinet meeting was concluded at
5 11:13 a.m.)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
108
October 24, 2000
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4
5 STATE OF FLORIDA:
6 COUNTY OF LEON:
7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that
8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the
9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand
10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing
11 pages numbered 1 through 107 are a true and correct
12 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
16 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
17 DATED THIS 3RD day of NOVEMBER, 2000.
18
19
20
21 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR
100 Salem Court
22 Tallahassee, Florida 32301
850/878-2221
23
24
25
ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.
|
Cabinet
Affairs
